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  Topic: Presidential Politics & Antievolution, Tracking the issue< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,04:17   

This thread is for items and discussion about where antievolution issues pop up in the campaigns or media coverage in the race for the presidency.

Fox News ran an article by Bill Sammon casting several slurs at newly-revealed Democratic Vice President candidate Senator Joe Biden, including making an issue over comments of Biden's related to creationism and "intelligent design".

Quote

   Biden also used unusually strong language to ridicule those who believe in creationism or intelligent design.

   “I refuse to believe the majority of people believe this malarkey!” the senior senator from Delaware exclaimed.

   But less than six months earlier, CBS News conducted a poll that found a majority of Americans (51 percent) do believe that God created humans in their present form. Even larger majorities reject the theory of evolution, according to the poll.

   After the HBO show ended, a reporter asked Biden whether his dismissal of a belief held dear by most Americans might come back to haunt him if his White House bid gained traction.

   With characteristic bluntness, Biden shrugged and said yes.


I have a response on my weblog.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,09:18   

In the Republican debates, three wannabes raised their hands indicating they did not accept evolution. None of them will be on the ticket.

McCain appears to be a theistic evolutionist. He doesn't seem inclined to pick a yahoo for a running mate.

I'm more concerned about state legislatures and school boards.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,10:00   

We already have several threads devoted to antievolution efforts in specific states. I think having one for the executive branch takes nothing away from those.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,10:14   

I'm all for holding the candidate's feet to the fire on science. It would be odd to see candidates forced to deny being anti-evolution. That would be the day.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,10:56   

Well, I for one, have the audacity to hope that we can go forward, together, and dream of things that never were.

Here's my "Brush With Greatness" story.

Back in 2005 - 2006, when Santorum of PA was making a total ass of himself by making ID-sounding noises, I emailed my Jr. Senator from IL asking him to bitch-slap Santorem and tell him to shut up, we have a separation of church and state in the US.

So, Obama emailed back that while he would not slap Santorum, he would vote against his ID proposals and did believe in a strict separation of church and state.

Of course, this was before Obama's  dumb-ass meeting with the Mega-Church guy, and before he said he is okay with faith-based intiatives...

But he sure looks like a way better alternative to Johnny McSame.

My $.02 and worth every penny.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
midwifetoad



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,11:35   

I think it should be obvious that politicians can't really have opinions on religion that aren't calculated. If anything matters, it is their voting record.

And even that isn't a sure thing, because laws are packaged in such a way that everyone winds up voting for something they don't like.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,18:07   

I think that the vagueness on anti-evolution is a symptom of a bigger problem with western governments at the moment.
Everything is so carefully managed that it is difficult to find much difference between the candidates and it doesn't pay to have any vision or take any risks.
I think that the danger here is that the US is at the edge of what could be a long and deep recession, admitting to it would be to somehow be un-American*. The problem for the US is that unlike other recessions, the Asian internal markets are developed enough to probably keep on growing.
In five years time my prediction will be that, unless something is done, China will be the superpower and a lot of the best research and universities will be done in Asia.

* In Australia, the opposition party blames the government for the downturn because they were "talking down the economy"

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,18:21   

China will eventually be the superpower simply because it has the most people and possibly the smartest.  Or the most smart people. Could take ten years or  fifty, but it's on the way.

India could compete in this arena if they undergo a similar cultural revolution, but I doubt they will in my lifetime. Of course I would have said the same thing about China 20 years ago.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,05:54   

Quote
In Australia, the opposition party blames the government for the downturn because they were "talking down the economy"


Proof, of which we can never have too much, that the world is round and that antipodeans are therefore upside-down: here in Ireland, the Government blames the slump on the opposition because they talked the economy down.

And the government is always right, you know. It even says so on their web site.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,10:52   

This just in:

John McSame picks FTK-like  Home-Schooling Mom Creationist as his VP selection:

from Daily kos:


McCain Picks FTK as VP

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:04   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 29 2008,10:52)
This just in:

John McSame picks FTK-like  Home-Schooling Mom Creationist as his VP selection:

from Daily kos:


McCain Picks FTK as VP

Frighteningly enough, yep, Dawg:

"FoxNews source releases information that Governor Sarah Palin is McCains VP pick. Fox News claims McCain Camp has verified by email. Gov Palin is a former Sportscaster, Mayor, and she is pro-life, NRA member, and originally from Idaho."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2070582/posts

From the Fox's Anus, so to speak: http://elections.foxnews.com/2008....-friday

Afarensis put a thread up:  

http://scienceblogs.com/afarens....the_ala  

-- she supports the teaching of creationism in schools.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:18   

Aw crap - another creotard. What a choice for Vice-MILF.

And if they think Obama doesn't have enough experience, this one - oh dear...

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:49   

A slightly different take (though Afarensis and I are working from the same news sources): McCain Picks Palin: Medium Threat to Science Education

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:51   

Until we get more data, I'm treating Palin as having fallen for "fairness argument" rhetoric rather than being a fully-invested antievolution advocate. Lots of people do...

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:51   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 29 2008,11:18)
Aw crap - another creotard. What a choice for Vice-MILF.

And if they think Obama doesn't have enough experience, this one - oh dear...

What do mean?  

She's got a solid 1 1/2 years in as the Gov of the state with the 47th smallest population...

and only a little "whiff of corruption" attached to her!

added in edit:  Palin's Abuse Of Power

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,13:45   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 29 2008,12:04)
Afarensis put a thread up:  

http://scienceblogs.com/afarens....the_ala  

-- she supports the teaching of creationism in schools.

I just read the afarensis post and was going to come over here to say that about creationism, she doesn't seem opposed to it, but she doesn't seem particularly enthusiastic either. She's certainly no Pill I mean Bill Buckingham.

   
PTET



Posts: 133
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,14:18   

Quote (stevestory @ Aug. 29 2008,13:45)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 29 2008,12:04)
Afarensis put a thread up:  

http://scienceblogs.com/afarens....the_ala  

-- she supports the teaching of creationism in schools.

I just read the afarensis post and was going to come over here to say that about creationism, she doesn't seem opposed to it, but she doesn't seem particularly enthusiastic either. She's certainly no Pill I mean Bill Buckingham.

I'm not Americanian and I don't live in Americania... But I did watch all of "The Wire"*, so I feel qualified to comment on Americanian politics.

I don't see that Sarah Palin said any more in support of creationism than the bear minimum required to get elected Republican...






* I also loved "Bonanza" and "Batman" when I was v young.

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"It’s not worth the effort to prove the obvious. Ridiculous ideas don’t deserve our time.
Even the attempt to formulate ID is a generous accommodation." - ScottAndrews

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,14:55   

I get the feeling its a flailing attempt to show republicans are not all irrelevant octogenarians who wear their pants up high by their nipples and are distrustful of them coloureds, wimmin and those who are too light on their feet, wink-wink.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Quidam



Posts: 229
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,15:38   

Sarah Palin = Dan Quayle

- with tits


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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,16:12   

Supposedly Karl Rove was urging McSame in no uncertain terms NOT to pick Lieberman. I wonder if 'Quayle with Boobs' was his idea?

Swell. Another four years with Turdblossom.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,20:54   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 29 2008,11:04)
Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 29 2008,10:52)
This just in:

John McSame picks FTK-like  Home-Schooling Mom Creationist as his VP selection:

from Daily kos:


McCain Picks FTK as VP

Frighteningly enough, yep, Dawg:

"FoxNews source releases information that Governor Sarah Palin is McCains VP pick. Fox News claims McCain Camp has verified by email. Gov Palin is a former Sportscaster, Mayor, and she is pro-life, NRA member, and originally from Idaho."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2070582/posts

From the Fox's Anus, so to speak: http://elections.foxnews.com/2008....-friday

Afarensis put a thread up:  

http://scienceblogs.com/afarens....the_ala  

-- she supports the teaching of creationism in schools.

Actually, that is a post from 2006 that has suddenly become relevant - to my intense surprise.

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,00:13   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Aug. 29 2008,11:51)
Until we get more data, I'm treating Palin as having fallen for "fairness argument" rhetoric rather than being a fully-invested antievolution advocate. Lots of people do...

I'll go along with that.

I hurriedly exaggerated her position on the matter of teaching creationism (I simply posted too fast without doing research, which is stupid on my part, and the kind of crap I dislike when others do it) -- anyways, I'll rachet that back a few notches. My apologies.

I'll wait to see what the fundy bloc presses her to say, and if she says it.    

I tried finding any more info out, but didn't get far. She doesn't appear to be an extremist, and is actually impressive in regards to her ethical stances on several matters -- corruption in various venues and upholding rulings on gay rights that she didn't personally endorse, but saw fit to take a stand on ( the last detailed here: http://dwb.adn.com/news....8c.html ).

Afarensis mentioned this article in the Anchorage Daily News from Oct. 27 2006:
http://www.adn.com/news....4c.html

But there's also this, from Oct. 24 2006, a two-part bio in the Anchorage Daily News
Part one:
http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/story/8334949p-8231037c.html

Part two:
http://dwb.adn.com/news....0c.html

I don't want to be accused of taking part in any feeding frenzy against her because the truth is that I'm impressed with the backbone she's demonstrated --  this shouldn't be taken to mean I'd ever endorse her in *this* race,  particularly when I'm not convinced McCain is entirely sane.

n.b. I recall a mod or regular poster at IIDB (Internet Infidels) or Dawkins' joint being from Eagle River, so maybe I can look that person up and see if they can offer any insight from a local view. In the meantime, Wikipedia has a good profile on her that includes this cited statement:

" Concerning education, while running for Governor of Alaska and asked about the teaching of creationism in public school science classes, Palin answered that she thought it was healthy for both creationism and evolution to be taught together; although she clarified the next day that she meant that open debate between the two ideas should not be prohibited if it came up in discussion, but that creationism did not need to be part of the curriculum. She also added that she would not appoint State Board of Education members based on their opinions on evolution or creationism. "

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,00:48   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 30 2008,01:13)
I hurriedly exaggerated her position on the matter of teaching creationism (I simply posted too fast without doing research, which is stupid on my part, and the kind of crap I dislike when others do it)

I don't think anybody here would hold against you a few crap posts out of 1766. I'm lucky if 10% of mine are worth a hoot :p

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,05:15   

I think you got your numbers reversed there, chief;   hanging out here, I was bound to learn stuff eventually --I should have listened to reason about chasing the great white Hawkins whale, come to think of it. Anyway, when I had problems with mods elsewhere, I always pointed to this place as being about as good as it gets. Adding Lou and Kristine just spiffed it up even more.

I blame Louis, Arden and the sinister richardthughes for anything bad here. Evil bastards.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,06:13   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 30 2008,11:15)
I think you got your numbers reversed there, chief;   hanging out here, I was bound to learn stuff eventually --I should have listened to reason about chasing the great white Hawkins whale, come to think of it. Anyway, when I had problems with mods elsewhere, I always pointed to this place as being about as good as it gets. Adding Lou and Kristine just spiffed it up even more.

I blame Louis, Arden and the sinister richardthughes for anything bad here. Evil bastards.

You blame me?

I'm shocked, shocked I say.

Louis

P.S. You only blame me for exposing you as the deviant squirrelist you really are. Mind you, you guys are about to get a Python as VP so it's all good. What? It's not Michael Palin? It's some creationist appeasing chick? That's changes things!

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Bye.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1552
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,07:03   

Louis (and other non-colonials tempted to insert their 2 cents)

Look what can happen :O

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,08:24   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 30 2008,05:15)
I think you got your numbers reversed there, chief;   hanging out here, I was bound to learn stuff eventually --I should have listened to reason about chasing the great white Hawkins whale, come to think of it. Anyway, when I had problems with mods elsewhere, I always pointed to this place as being about as good as it gets. Adding Lou and Kristine just spiffed it up even more.

I blame Louis, Arden and the sinister richardthughes for anything bad here. Evil bastards.

I LIKED your digging, and I think that I went off too fast, too far, and I hate that in others too... but she is NO Hillary Clinton.  

I also did a little MORE digging, and now I think she is an even worse choice.  According to a voter in her home town, she mis-managed a property buy for the town, and the town wound up paying @ 10 times what they should have for the project.  

That's not change - that's more of the same!

And I still don't trust her science / creation position.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,09:07   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 30 2008,11:15)
[SNIP]

I should have listened to reason about chasing the great white Hawkins whale, come to think of it.

[SNIP]

I forgot to ask, how goes your Hawkins hunting? Is Ericmurphy still on the case?

Louis

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Bye.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,09:10   

I don't think I was advocating "trust", just a modicum of caution in classification. Palin might straighten up if she seriously got up to speed on the evolution v. creationism issue, but she has come out of the gate as having sided with the deceptionists. It is certainly cause for concern.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,09:17   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Aug. 30 2008,15:10)
I don't think I was advocating "trust", just a modicum of caution in classification. Palin might straighten up if she seriously got up to speed on the evolution v. creationism issue, but she has come out of the gate as having sided with the deceptionists. It is certainly cause for concern.

In all seriousness I'll go along with that. I have to say I "like" the fact that when pressed on what seemed to be overtly antievolution comments she retreated to "teach both sides" rhetoric.

Why I said I "like" that is because:

a) Even though WE all know "teach both sides" is standard antievolutionist deception it doesn't me she does. She could be well meaning and ignorant about the methods of antievolutionists, "teach both sides/the controversy" is an easy and apparently reasonable position to occupy for someone unaware of the history and issues associated with antievolution. It's also simple political sense: appear to support everyone until you can afford not to

b) The chances that she is a dyed in the wool creationist loon are lessened by that retreat. It *could* be deception on her part, but I have no evidence to suspect that it is. So don't assume it until demonstrable.

It could have been Huckabee after all....

Louis

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Bye.

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,17:52   

Not evilution, precisely, but ScienceDebate2008 answers from Obama!

Also:

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,21:49   

Quote (ERV @ Aug. 30 2008,17:52)
Not evilution, precisely, but ScienceDebate2008 answers from Obama!

Also:

PERFECT!  - NAILED it!  Well, figuratively, anyway.

In my reading I came accross something else scary..
Consider Palin vs. Putin - ouch!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,03:09   

The science debate looks like a good idea. I wish the networks would devote a major debate to science.

The image, however, strikes me as something that will backfire. The results of making fun of Reagan's age and senility come to mind.

The experience issue would make more sense if Biden were topping the Democrat ticket and Obama and Palin were opponents at the same level.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,05:57   

AiG has weighed in:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article....tionist

Quote
In 2006, then-candidate Palin indicated in a TV debate that creation should be taught alongside evolution in the state’s public schools, declaring that schools should “teach both. You know, don’t be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it’s so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.”3 Now, in stating this, she may have been advocating the teaching of scientific creationism, as opposed to biblical creationism4 (the latter having been deemed unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court in 19875), but we don’t really know.

“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”In an interview the next day, Palin (if the Anchorage Daily News report is correct) appeared to backpedal somewhat, saying that she meant to say that a discussion of alternative views should be allowed but not forced on students, adding: “I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.” In other words, Palin was not suggesting that the teaching of creation should be mandated (perhaps realizing that her statement the day before came across as arguing that creation must be in the science curriculum).

The Anchorage newspaper also reported her as saying she would not push the state’s board of education (governors in Alaska appoint board members, and the legislators confirm them) to add creationist alternatives to evolution to the state’s curriculum. The paper asked for her personal view on evolution, and she said, “I believe we have a creator.”


She's clearly a YEC but just wont admit it.

  
lkeithlu



Posts: 321
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,09:29   

There seems to be some dominionist connections possible.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/08/be_afraid_1.php#comments

These groups make Huckabee look mainstream.

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,10:06   

And there's more:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/29/163234/559/495/579213

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,06:16   

It seems to me that there's a bit of over-hyping going on here. What it seems to boil down to is that Palin avoids offending The Core in her statements on education and would probably go along with Teaching the Controversy™ more out of sympathy than conviction. She said "I believe we were created" or words to that effect. Big deal. So do all the theistic evos.

Is she a dominionist trojan horse? The evidence (?) is that her pastor is a bit of a nut-job who associates with the osculospumatory fringe.

Rev. Wright, anyone?

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,09:30   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 31 2008,10:06)
And there's more:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/29/163234/559/495/579213

This is absurd. The only thing I knew about the dailyKos until the Palin announcement is that darkSyde wrote for them, and I like darkSyde. But in the last two days I see that dailyKos is a) “reporting” that Palin’s Down child is actually her grandchild, and now b) Palin is a hardcore dominionist. I dunno. Maybe being a sort of apolitical centrist helps me to see that many in either camp will accept crap uncritically, as long as it is crap from their side. I don’t see any difference at all between “Palin is a dominionist” and “Obama is a Moslem.” And the dailyKos, I must conclude, is a worthless World Net Daily sort of rag.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,10:36   

There is a disparity in sourcing of political crap, it seems to me. We've got bloggers at DailyKos being weird. I didn't like guilt-by-way-too-tenuous-association when dished up by John Stormer, and it doesn't seem to have improved. On the other side, we've seen Karl Rove do his business as part of the campaigning and administration. I doubt we'll see a negative campaign out of the Obama camp that comes anywhere near the Rovian "black love child" stunt used against McCain in 2000.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,12:39   

Even if Palin is covering up for her daughter's pregnancy, it would only matter if she were a Dem.  The fundies will howl and moan if it is true and Palin will apologize to god and they will all get along because the fundies need the Reps. and the Reps. need the fundies.

Isn't that why McCain went a courtin' at Bob Jones and Liberty Universities?  Didn't he also make overtures towards ID in schools?  He's willing to do or say anything to get elected (maverick my arse) and if supporting ID would get him there, he would do it.  If polls say that 51% of Americans want ID taught in schools, do you think he would speak against it?

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,12:55   

Quote (GCT @ Sep. 01 2008,12:39)
Even if Palin is covering up for her daughter's pregnancy, it would only matter if she were a Dem.  The fundies will howl and moan if it is true and Palin will apologize to god and they will all get along because the fundies need the Reps. and the Reps. need the fundies.

Isn't that why McCain went a courtin' at Bob Jones and Liberty Universities?  Didn't he also make overtures towards ID in schools?  He's willing to do or say anything to get elected (maverick my arse) and if supporting ID would get him there, he would do it.  If polls say that 51% of Americans want ID taught in schools, do you think he would speak against it?

I predict that it will eventually be revealed that Rove et al. planted the story about Palin's daughter (remember that Rover learned his political ethics as a Nixon operative in the days of CREEP). This results in a  distraction for the left and mobilizes the troops on the right.

As long as the country falls for these "issues" about personalities and possible peccadilloes, the Republicans win. They won't win on the issues, and this allows the issues to be ignored.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,13:40   

Heads up, people.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,13:47   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 01 2008,13:40)
Heads up, people.

Why are you whoring your blog here FTK? What's up, clicks down to single figures? Interest in ID waning? Desperate for a bit of attention.

Yeah, big whoop. Real blogs had the news hours ago in any case.

What do you think about the fact that Palen went on record as opposed to "explicit" sex education when abstinence education could be given instead?

Do you think their situation is somehow related to that?

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Quidam



Posts: 229
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,17:04   

Obama's response is appropriate and stands in stark contrast to McCain's attack on Chelsea Clinton in 1998

Quote
"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?
Because her father is Janet Reno."


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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,17:30   

Quote (Quidam @ Sep. 01 2008,17:04)
Obama's response is appropriate and stands in stark contrast to McCain's attack on Chelsea Clinton in 1998

   
Quote
"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?
Because her father is Janet Reno."

Your guy McCondo$ is a class act, eh, FTK?

Do you share his "family values," like the one that says it's cool to dump your wife for a filthy-rich beer heiress because:

1) she was crippled in a car accident, and
2) you were a POW?

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,17:47   

Um, perhaps you can point out where I suggested that McCain is a class act?    I've toyed around with idea of not voting at all in the Presidential election.   I find Palin interesting, but as yet know next to nothing about her.  

I think McCain was an ass to leave his his first wife.  Period.  Leaving her to marry a millionaire several times over doesn't impress me much either, but then none of us are without fault which makes it difficult to throw stones.

I still don't know for sure where I stand in this campaign, but I do feel like this Palin chick has more in common with the average joe than some of these folks on capital hill.  

BTW, you'll probably remember Obama's words where he stated that if his girls "made a mistake" he wouldn't want them "punished" by having a child.  I prefer to believe that he didn't think that comment through, as a child should never be considered a "punishment" regardless of what the situation is.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,17:59   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 01 2008,09:30)
 
Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 31 2008,10:06)
And there's more:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/29/163234/559/495/579213

This is absurd. The only thing I knew about the dailyKos until the Palin announcement is that darkSyde wrote for them, and I like darkSyde. But in the last two days I see that dailyKos is a) “reporting” that Palin’s Down child is actually her grandchild, and now b) Palin is a hardcore dominionist. I dunno. Maybe being a sort of apolitical centrist helps me to see that many in either camp will accept crap uncritically, as long as it is crap from their side. I don’t see any difference at all between “Palin is a dominionist” and “Obama is a Moslem.” And the dailyKos, I must conclude, is a worthless World Net Daily sort of rag.

Daily Kos is a self-moderated (read:  not moderated)blog.  As such, it attracts more than its share of nutters.  In fact, I would suspect that there are a great numbers of Repubs masquerading as "loyal liberals".

So, Heddle anad others, don't get your knickers in a twist.  It's the old "good bloggers at bad sites, and bad bloggers at good sites" meme.

Obama and Dems have reiterated "families are off limits", and I have seem more condemnations of scurilous attacks by kos bloggers than distatesful posts.

On a lighter note:

Here is a link to   FTK's   Sarah Palin's blog about being a candidate.



FTK / Sarah Palin's Blog

edited for extremely bad spelling

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,18:02   

Of course, the rest of the world is jealous of our freedoms.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,18:04   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 01 2008,17:47)
Um, perhaps you can point out where I suggested that McCain is a class act?

Um, perhaps you can point out where I claimed that you did?
 
Quote
I've toyed around with idea of not voting at all in the Presidential election.   I find Palin interesting, but as yet know next to nothing about her.

I find her to be a predictably, profoundly dishonest Christianist scumbag. Did you hear that she's already lawyered up for the Troopergate scandal?  
 
Quote
I think McCain was an ass to leave his his first wife.  Period.

So why are so many of your fellow fundies cool with it?
 
Quote
Leaving her to marry a millionaire several times over doesn't impress me much either, but then none of us are without fault which makes it difficult to throw stones.

Jesus Christ spoke against hypocrisy, didn't He? I don't recall him saying anything about homosexuality or abortion or evolution, though.
 
Quote
I still don't know for sure where I stand in this campaign, but I do feel like this Palin chick has more in common with the average joe than some of these folks on capital hill.

But not in a good way. I want my leaders to be exceptional people. Why don't you? 
 
Quote
BTW, you'll probably remember Obama's words where he stated that if his girls "made a mistake" he wouldn't want them "punished" by having a child.  I prefer to believe that he didn't think that comment through, as a child should never be considered a "punishment" regardless of what the situation is.

Yep, and I see how you are dishonestly twisting them, too. The child herself is not the punishment, bearing and caring for the child is the punishment. Of course, you're probably too blinded by racism to see how you used the straw man fallacy there.

How about that abstinence-based sex education BS Palin endorses?

How about the idea that a 44-year-old woman (high-risk on the basis of age alone) who travels in her third trimester, has contractions (not B-H) and amniotic fluid leakage, yet remains in Texas to give a speech, flies through Seattle, drives through Anchorage and its NICUs, to give birth ~12 hours later in a suburban hospital with NO facilities for high-risk mothers or babies?

Did you know that her physician is a family practicioner, not OB-GYN?

Did you know that her physician has privileges at at least one of the Anchorage hospitals with an NICU? Why didn't she just meet them there?

You can't explain a single one of these actions as those of someone who views her baby's life as precious, FTK. On top of that, her decision to accept McCondo$'s offer and put her pregnant daughter in the spotlight was incredibly selfish. Her daughter has been punished like no child deserves to be punished.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,18:07   

It occurs to me, Sarah Palin reminds me a lot of FTK, or at least, what I think FTK aspires to.

And again, I bet it'll be revealed that Sarah Palin was Karl Rove's bright idea. It's far too fucked up and cynical a choice to have been thought up by anyone else.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,18:44   

Quote (JAM @ Sep. 01 2008,18:04)
Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 01 2008,17:47)
Um, perhaps you can point out where I suggested that McCain is a class act?

Um, perhaps you can point out where I claimed that you did?

Well, you did say:
Quote
Your guy McCondo$ is a class act, eh, FTK?

By referring to McCain as "her guy" you are implying that he has the FtK Seal of Approval.  I have no recall of FtK ever stamping McCain, or any of the other Republican contenders, with her imprimatur.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,19:18   

Apparently Palin is pretty well clueless about American history too.  She thinks the founding fathers wrote the pledge of allegiance with the "under god" part in it. :O

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,19:20   

Quote (GCT @ Sep. 01 2008,19:18)
Apparently Palin is pretty well clueless about American history too.  She thinks the founding fathers wrote the pledge of allegiance with the "under god" part in it. :O

If true, that is too precious. Link?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,19:30   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 01 2008,20:20)
Quote (GCT @ Sep. 01 2008,19:18)
Apparently Palin is pretty well clueless about American history too.  She thinks the founding fathers wrote the pledge of allegiance with the "under god" part in it. :O

If true, that is too precious. Link?

Oh yeah, sorry.  Here it is.

It's question number 11.

ETA:  The other questions help to give an idea of some of her other positions.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,19:58   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 01 2008,17:47)
I still don't know for sure where I stand in this campaign, but I do feel like this Palin chick has more in common with the average joe than some of these folks on capital hill.

And that, as we have learned, is surely an excellent reason to vote for the average joe to be president...

As you may not know, former Nebraska senator Roman Hruska is also in this camp. He was most famous for his defense of mediocrity, a la FtK. When Nixon nominated average-joe G. Harold Carrswell to the Supreme Court, Hruska defended him thusly.    
Quote
'Even if he were mediocre, there are a lot of mediocre judges and people and lawyers. They are entitled to a little representation, aren't they, and a little chance? We can't have all Brandeises, Frankfurters and Cardozos.

A mediocracy is definitely my idea of good government (not).

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,20:37   

I wouldn't call Pallin Ftk. Although I disagree with most of her politics, it sounds like she is strong willed and stands by her convictions. Ftk, on the otherhand twists and turns when confronted by anything she *implies* she believes in.

You would think after all these years that Brown would be elevated from someone who's idea's are more than *interesting*.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,20:48   

Quote (GCT @ Sep. 01 2008,19:30)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 01 2008,20:20)
 
Quote (GCT @ Sep. 01 2008,19:18)
Apparently Palin is pretty well clueless about American history too.  She thinks the founding fathers wrote the pledge of allegiance with the "under god" part in it. :O

If true, that is too precious. Link?

Oh yeah, sorry.  Here it is.

It's question number 11.

ETA:  The other questions help to give an idea of some of her other positions.

Not so good to start with a gaff..

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=palin+founding+fathers

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,20:59   

Bonus:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/members-of-frin.html

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,21:03   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 01 2008,18:44)
Quote (JAM @ Sep. 01 2008,18:04)
Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 01 2008,17:47)
Um, perhaps you can point out where I suggested that McCain is a class act?

Um, perhaps you can point out where I claimed that you did?

Well, you did say:
Quote
Your guy McCondo$ is a class act, eh, FTK?

By referring to McCain as "her guy" you are implying that he has the FtK Seal of Approval.  I have no recall of FtK ever stamping McCain, or any of the other Republican contenders, with her imprimatur.

Gee, maybe you should have a look at her blog. She's gushing about McCondo$'s choice of Palin:

Quote
So, I'm officially getting back into the race.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,21:13   

Quote (JAM @ Sep. 01 2008,21:03)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 01 2008,18:44)

By referring to McCain as "her guy" you are implying that he has the FtK Seal of Approval.  I have no recall of FtK ever stamping McCain, or any of the other Republican contenders, with her imprimatur.

Gee, maybe you should have a look at her blog. She's gushing about McCondo$'s choice of Palin:

I did and I see nothing to support your statement that McCain is "her guy."  It is typically FtK; as in noncommittal. There is nothing to indicate who she will vote for, only that the race is shaping up to be interesting to her.  The following statement of hers implies that she has yet to make up her mind yet.
Quote
For the first time in history, we'll have either an African American or a Female in the Presidential or VP position. Seriously cool.

Indeed, I do remember at least once in the past that FtK indicated that she might not vote GOP in this election. But, do carry on venting your spleen at her.  I am sure you are right about who FtK will vote for. It is just a shame the poor dear hasn't caught up with you yet.  ;)

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,21:14   

FtK is one of the four women in American Palin appeals to...

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,23:31   

Advice to Sarah Palin: Whatever they offer, don't accept that offer of a special guest appearance on "Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader?"

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Sep. 01 2008,23:31

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,00:06   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 01 2008,21:13)

I did and I see nothing to support your statement that McCain is "her guy."  It is typically FtK; as in noncommittal. There is nothing to indicate who she will vote for, only that the race is shaping up to be interesting to her.

Really? What do you make of this?
     
Quote
I've never been one to particularly support a women in those positions,but this gal impresses me a lot more than 'ol Hillary ever has.

     
Quote
 The following statement of hers implies that she has yet to make up her mind yet.

Statements don't imply, people do. What we're doing is called inference.
     
Quote
For the first time in history, we'll have either an African American or a Female in the Presidential or VP position. Seriously cool.

I don't see how you can infer that she hasn't made up her mind from that statement.
 
Quote
Indeed, I do remember at least once in the past that FtK indicated that she might not vote GOP in this election.

Indeed, I also remember her indicating many things, particularly about biology, that are clearly false, as well as a lot of us here calling her on them. Given her record, I infer that she probably was being deceptive. Given statements like this:
Quote
All this liberal BS is nausiating...

I doubt that she would vote for the most liberal Democrat to be nominated since McGovern.
Quote
I am sure you are right about who FtK will vote for. It is just a shame the poor dear hasn't caught up with you yet.

Given that we can predict her dishonest arguments before she advances them, it's not exactly an intellectual triumph.

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,00:09   


  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,00:53   

Palin captures critical evangelical swing vote:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/01/palin.evangelicals/index.html

unlucky Obama, you Muslim.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,01:15   

Quote (JAM @ Sep. 02 2008,00:06)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 01 2008,21:13)

I am sure you are right about who FtK will vote for. It is just a shame the poor dear hasn't caught up with you yet.

Given that we can predict her dishonest arguments before she advances them, it's not exactly an intellectual triumph.

You know, JAM, call me when you can find FtK saying "I will vote for McCain" or you can calculate CSI on her political posts. Until then I hope you've been able to vent your spleen enough to take the edge off.

Editted to reduce snarkiness by 2-3%

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,05:47   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 02 2008,00:53)
Palin captures critical evangelical swing vote:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/01/palin.evangelicals/index.html

As I mentioned on Ed's blog, I can confirm that anecdotally, even more so after talking to more friends last night. The evangelicals, so far, absolutely love her. (As do I.) It has nothing to do with what the evangelical leaders are saying, indeed in many cases such as mine it would have to be in spite of what they are saying--it is a powerful, visceral response, fair or not, that "she is really us, not a groomed, plastic, blow-dried Ralph Reed type pandering for our vote."

This could all change, and at any rate having the evangelicals rally behind her, especially if the so-called leaders make a big fuss, could end up a net minus instead of a net plus--such analyses are above my pay grade. But the fact, I suspect now beyond refute, is that the choice has indeed energized the sleeping evangelical base. Whether it was a sleeping bear or sleeping paper tiger I don't know.

I would also add my guess that no current (plausible) stories, even should they prove true, would dampen the excitement in that community. And I would also add, again, that these observations are purely anecdotal, based on talking to my friends who have talked to their friends, etc.

The one criticism of her that might have some legs among evangelicals is that given all her personal family problems, which is a big part of her appeal, is being VP in the best interest of her family? My guess is that she cannot come up with a slam dunk answer to this, but she'll come up with some answer, and that will be enough.

Bottom line: FTK is not the only one gushing, not by a long-shot.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Alan Fox



Posts: 1552
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,08:19   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 01 2008,13:02)
Of course, the rest of the world is jealous of our freedoms.

Wow.

*takes own advice and refrains from further comment*

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,08:42   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,05:47)
Bottom line: FTK is not the only one gushing, not by a long-shot.

Dheddle, don't you feel just a tad USED by this choice of a VP candidate? McCain made a cynical calculation, and you fell for it. This woman has no substantive experience, and even those who should be her fans have little to say about her governing abilities. I couldn't care less about her personal life, but  
Quote
John Harris, the (REPUBLICAN) speaker of the Alaska House, when asked about her qualifications for Veep, replied with this: "She's old enough. She's a U.S. citizen."

and  
Quote
"She's not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president?" said Lyda Green, the president of the State Senate, a Republican from Palin's hometown of Wasilla. "Look at what she's done to this state. What would she do to the nation?"

Couple that with the investigation into abuse of power vis-a-vis her former brother in law, and the revelations that she wangled $27 million in federal pork for her village of less than 7000 people, and she looks like a typical venal politician, except with even less experience. She may not be Ralph Reed, but she might be Tom DeLay or Bob Ney or Newt Gingrich (without the resumes of any of those guys).

If evangelicals are over the moon about this pick, it really does highlight how they can overlook just about everything else and still support a co-religionist regardless of reality.

That's just sad.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,09:21   

Quote (Alan Fox @ Sep. 02 2008,14:19)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 01 2008,13:02)
Of course, the rest of the world is jealous of our freedoms.

Wow.

*takes own advice and refrains from further comment*

Wow also.

{Follows Alan's advice}

Louis

P.S. Although I choose to follow Alan's advice, it is very good advice, I want it on record that any comment I would have made before I took Alan's advice would have further confirmed Godwin's law.

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,09:29   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 02 2008,14:42)
[SNIP]

If evangelicals are over the moon about this pick, it really does highlight how they can overlook just about everything else and still support a co-religionist regardless of reality.

That's just sad.

And the same is true even if the potential Rep. VP is an atheist.* Cheerleading because someone is on your team misses the point of democracy. Or at least it misses the point of democracy if you are one of the people and not one of the elected. The elected have a distinctly vested interest in distracting the people from the issues. It might be the least bad system we have, but that doesn't make it perfect!

Reading up about your potential POTUSes and VPOTUSes has scared the crap out of me. Maybe I'm just getting old and cynical, and maybe I am disturbed at the political trends here in the UK (current operating system = USA emulator version 1.2). I can't see that McCain/Palin is going to be a good choice for the USA based on the issues. And based on promises they might have to keep I'm not so sure about Obama/Biden. At least Obama seems science friendly and his stated desire (however honest) to keep the negative campaigning out of the process is pleasing.

Louis

*Not that atheism is a religion, yadda yadda yadda, blah, blah, blah etc.

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Bye.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,09:37   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,05:47)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 02 2008,00:53)
Palin captures critical evangelical swing vote:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/01/palin.evangelicals/index.html

As I mentioned on Ed's blog, I can confirm that anecdotally, even more so after talking to more friends last night. The evangelicals, so far, absolutely love her. (As do I.) It has nothing to do with what the evangelical leaders are saying, indeed in many cases such as mine it would have to be in spite of what they are saying--it is a powerful, visceral response, fair or not, that "she is really us, not a groomed, plastic, blow-dried Ralph Reed type pandering for our vote."

This could all change, and at any rate having the evangelicals rally behind her, especially if the so-called leaders make a big fuss, could end up a net minus instead of a net plus--such analyses are above my pay grade. But the fact, I suspect now beyond refute, is that the choice has indeed energized the sleeping evangelical base. Whether it was a sleeping bear or sleeping paper tiger I don't know.

I would also add my guess that no current (plausible) stories, even should they prove true, would dampen the excitement in that community. And I would also add, again, that these observations are purely anecdotal, based on talking to my friends who have talked to their friends, etc.

The one criticism of her that might have some legs among evangelicals is that given all her personal family problems, which is a big part of her appeal, is being VP in the best interest of her family? My guess is that she cannot come up with a slam dunk answer to this, but she'll come up with some answer, and that will be enough.

Bottom line: FTK is not the only one gushing, not by a long-shot.

Point taken, Dave.

I was trying to snarkily suggest that she's adding no new voters (evangelicals were only ever going republican anyway)..

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,09:46   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 02 2008,08:42)
     
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,05:47)
Bottom line: FTK is not the only one gushing, not by a long-shot.

Dheddle, don't you feel just a tad USED by this choice of a VP candidate? McCain made a cynical calculation, and you fell for it. This woman has no substantive experience, and even those who should be her fans have little to say about her governing abilities. I couldn't care less about her personal life, but        
Quote
John Harris, the (REPUBLICAN) speaker of the Alaska House, when asked about her qualifications for Veep, replied with this: "She's old enough. She's a U.S. citizen."

and        
Quote
"She's not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president?" said Lyda Green, the president of the State Senate, a Republican from Palin's hometown of Wasilla. "Look at what she's done to this state. What would she do to the nation?"

Couple that with the investigation into abuse of power vis-a-vis her former brother in law, and the revelations that she wangled $27 million in federal pork for her village of less than 7000 people, and she looks like a typical venal politician, except with even less experience. She may not be Ralph Reed, but she might be Tom DeLay or Bob Ney or Newt Gingrich (without the resumes of any of those guys).

If evangelicals are over the moon about this pick, it really does highlight how they can overlook just about everything else and still support a co-religionist regardless of reality.

That's just sad.

No, I don't feel used. Every VP pick in the history of the Republic was made to shore up support. Every single VP pick in history is an example of pandering to somebody. Obama's choice was to comfort those who are inclined to vote for him but nervous about his lack of National Security creds. Should those people feel "used"? Did Texans feel "used" when JFK chose LBJ?

It may be that when more is revealed about Palin I'll change my mind back to Obama. But the quotes you provided sure won't do it--any more than quotes about Obama's lack of experience influenced me when I was ready to pull the lever for him. If experience was a huge factor, which for me it is not, then I would have been in the McCain camp long before he chose Palin.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
jupiter



Posts: 97
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,09:52   

dheddle, you're ignoring the corruption/abuse of power issues raised. Don't those give you pause? Or make you even slightly interested in looking into them on your own?

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,10:14   

Quote (jupiter @ Sep. 02 2008,09:52)
dheddle, you're ignoring the corruption/abuse of power issues raised. Don't those give you pause? Or make you even slightly interested in looking into them on your own?

Yes I am more than interested. Excuse me for not taking as gospel the first wave of stories that followed the announcement. I also didn't believe the "Obama is a closet Moslem" stories. If they have legs, if they turn out to point to serious corruption, then it would certainly have an effect on my vote. As for what is mentioned, would $27 million in pork bother me? Hell no, every politician should have a goal of getting back to their state a reasonable fraction of the federal dollars their citizens sent to DC. I don't expect my governor to say--"Oh, let's just let Robert Byrd have all those dollars for WVa." Having her sister-in-law's husband fired without cause? If that turns out to be true that would be disturbing. But a report that it is being investigated is just that--I'll wait until the investigation is completed.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,10:29   

Just as a side point, if Obama WAS a muslim, would it really matter to you Dave?

The question I suppose I am asking is "Is the single issue of a candidate's specific religious/non-religious stance sufficiently important to you to vote/not vote for them?". Which immediately springs the follow-on question of "Would you excuse a member of your own sect for unpleasantness X and not excuse a member of another sect/non-religious candidate for unpleasantness X?".

Louis

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Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,10:39   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,10:29)
Just as a side point, if Obama WAS a muslim, would it really matter to you Dave?

The question I suppose I am asking is "Is the single issue of a candidate's specific religious/non-religious stance sufficiently important to you to vote/not vote for them?". Which immediately springs the follow-on question of "Would you excuse a member of your own sect for unpleasantness X and not excuse a member of another sect/non-religious candidate for unpleasantness X?".

Louis

It might, I don't know for sure, but it might. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I tend to vote for people in part because they are like me. Part of Obama's appeal to me includes that he is a Christian, part of the appeal is the history making aspect of an African-American president, and part of the appeal is that he is smart. I am so "not a Moslem" that I don't honestly know if I would vote for one. I think I could, but that is purely hypothetical.

So that answers the first question--somebody being "like me" in their biography is absolutely appealing. I have a lot in common with Palin: lower middle class upbringing, handicapped child, evangelical Christian. There is no doubt that I find that commonality appealing.

As for the second question, I would not excuse a member of my own "sect." If Palin is corrupt, I will not vote for her.  On the other hand, I don't expect her to be a saint, either.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,10:45   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,10:14)
Quote (jupiter @ Sep. 02 2008,09:52)
dheddle, you're ignoring the corruption/abuse of power issues raised. Don't those give you pause? Or make you even slightly interested in looking into them on your own?

Yes I am more than interested. Excuse me for not taking as gospel the first wave of stories that followed the announcement. I also didn't believe the "Obama is a closet Moslem" stories. If they have legs, if they turn out to point to serious corruption, then it would certainly have an effect on my vote. As for what is mentioned, would $27 million in pork bother me? Hell no, every politician should have a goal of getting back to their state a reasonable fraction of the federal dollars their citizens sent to DC. I don't expect my governor to say--"Oh, let's just let Robert Byrd have all those dollars for WVa." Having her sister-in-law's husband fired without cause? If that turns out to be true that would be disturbing. But a report that it is being investigated is just that--I'll wait until the investigation is completed.

Re your previous post, yes, politicians have always picked VP candidates who complemented their strengths. Biden's foreign policy creds, as you mentioned, are a good example. But this choice was identity politics at its worst. She fills no gap in McCain's policy portfolio, she merely makes evangelicals feel better about him. To me, at least, that is a different thing than picking someone for their policy experience, or even if they can deliver a key swing state. The Repubs have been railing at the Dems for decades about the evils of identity politics. What happened here?

Re this post, the issue is NOT to determine who is the biggest porker. The issue is the hypocrisy of running as an anti-porker when you have bellied up to that trough for many millions of dollars. Does hypocrisy bother you?

As for the report on the investigation, you probably won't get it until after the election. It was originally slated to come out in late October or early November. Her recent hiring of a lawyer in this investigation means that there will almost certainly be delays.

So good luck making up your mind.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,10:58   

Albatrossity2,

You see no possible gradations here? All porkers are equal, everyone is a Robert Byrd? I don't. I can easily see being an anti-porker and yet receiving some pork. Politics is messy. If everyone fed just a bit at the trough, the question of pork barrel politics would go away. It's those who are gluttons who worry me.

Your comment about the trooper-gate probe seems to be cynical--the results won't be out until after the election. If so, and if she wins, and if they results show illegal activity, then I'll have to hold that against her after the election. The world is not perfect, and the alternative is holding to an investigation as proof of a misdeed. I wouldn't take that approach with anyone.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,11:05   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,10:58)
You see no possible gradations here? All porkers are equal, everyone is a Robert Byrd? I don't. I can easily see being an anti-porker and yet receiving some pork. Politics is messy. If everyone fed just a bit at the trough, the question of pork barrel politics would go away. It's those who are gluttons who worry me.

Sure there are gradations. Don't put words in my mouth; read that I wrote instead. Gluttony and hypocrisy are both sins, as I recall. I notice you paid not a bit of attention to the main point of that argument.
 
Quote
Your comment about the trooper-gate probe seems to be cynical--the results won't be out until after the election. If so, and if she wins, and if they results show illegal activity, then I'll have to hold that against her after the election. The world is not perfect, and the alternative is holding to an investigation as proof of a misdeed. I wouldn't take that approach with anyone.

Yes, I am cynical. Furthermore I think that McCain's choice for VP is evidence of profound cynicism on his side.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,11:10   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,16:39)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,10:29)
Just as a side point, if Obama WAS a muslim, would it really matter to you Dave?

The question I suppose I am asking is "Is the single issue of a candidate's specific religious/non-religious stance sufficiently important to you to vote/not vote for them?". Which immediately springs the follow-on question of "Would you excuse a member of your own sect for unpleasantness X and not excuse a member of another sect/non-religious candidate for unpleasantness X?".

Louis

It might, I don't know for sure, but it might. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I tend to vote for people in part because they are like me. Part of Obama's appeal to me includes that he is a Christian, part of the appeal is the history making aspect of an African-American president, and part of the appeal is that he is smart. I am so "not a Moslem" that I don't honestly know if I would vote for one. I think I could, but that is purely hypothetical.

So that answers the first question--somebody being "like me" in their biography is absolutely appealing. I have a lot in common with Palin: lower middle class upbringing, handicapped child, evangelical Christian. There is no doubt that I find that commonality appealing.

As for the second question, I would not excuse a member of my own "sect." If Palin is corrupt, I will not vote for her.  On the other hand, I don't expect her to be a saint, either.

Thanks for being honest.

I have to say that for me, I practise what I preach (ha ha ha), I think religion is a private, personal matter, and that it shouldn't be involved in politics (as far as is practicable, I understand how individuals might be influenced etc), hence I don't care if the candidate is a christian, muslim, sikh, cargo cultist, whatever. And I think it's safe to say I am at least as "not a muslim" as you are! ;-) In fact I'd go further, I'm even more "not a muslim" than you, given how I am also "not a jew" and "not a christian"!

I tend to vote for people whose ideas I think are good (by which I mean based on the available evidence). It's all about the ideas/issues for me, and agreement doesn't always feature. I have voted for people I vehemently disagree with on (perhaps minor) issue A because I think they are going to do a good job on issue B (which I may or may not agree with them on). Oy, such a headfuck! I don't have to like them, in fact in many cases I can guarantee I DON'T like them, or that they have to be like me. I also really, really don't expect candidates to be saints.

So to follow-on the follow-on, would you have any choosing between two otherwise identical (hypothetical) candidates one of whom is black (and thus presumably unlike you) and one of whom is white (and thus presumably like you)?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,11:23   

Louis,

Could you rephrase this question:

 
Quote
So to follow-on the follow-on, would you have any choosing between two otherwise identical (hypothetical) candidates one of whom is black (and thus presumably unlike you) and one of whom is white (and thus presumably like you)?


I think there is a word missing, and I don't want to assume that I know what it is.

Albatrossity2,

What main point did I miss? I thought I was pretty clear that I do not view her being anti-pork and her going after some pork as evidence of hypocrisy. I thought I was clear that it is every politician's fiduciary responsibility to go after some pork, to try to retrieve some of the tax dollars the state sends to DC.


Note: I have to get ready to teach my Astronomy class, so any reply will be delayed.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,11:31   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,11:23)
Albatrossity2,

What main point did I miss? I thought I was pretty clear that I do not view her being anti-pork and her going after some pork as evidence of hypocrisy. I thought I was clear that it is every politician's fiduciary responsibility to go after some pork, to try to retrieve some of the tax dollars the state sends to DC.

My definition - Hypocrisy = saying one thing (vehemently, in Palin's case) and doing another.

Dheddle's definition - "her being anti-pork and her going after some pork" = not evidence of hypocrisy

We seem to have different definitions of hypocrisy.

I'll stick with mine, thanks.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,11:42   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,17:23)
Louis,

Could you rephrase this question:

   
Quote
So to follow-on the follow-on, would you have any choosing between two otherwise identical (hypothetical) candidates one of whom is black (and thus presumably unlike you) and one of whom is white (and thus presumably like you)?


I think there is a word missing, and I don't want to assume that I know what it is.

[SNIP]

Not a problem. TYPO the Gdo of clerical errors has smitten me once more 'twould seem.

Quote
So to follow-on the follow-on, would you have any trouble choosing between two otherwise identical (hypothetical) candidates one of whom is black (and thus presumably unlike you) and one of whom is white (and thus presumably like you)?


I don't think you would tbh, but I am trying to assess the borders of this "vote for people like me" idea you have.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,12:45   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,10:14)
 Hell no, every politician should have a goal of getting back to their state a reasonable fraction of the federal dollars their citizens sent to DC.

Is 1.8 a reasonable fraction, Heddle? That's for the state as a whole, and I suspect that the "fraction" for Wasilla after the lobbying was done was closer to 5.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,13:04   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,11:23)
Note: I have to get ready to teach my Astrology class, so any reply will be delayed.

fixed that for you!  :p

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,15:20   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,11:42)
So to follow-on the follow-on, would you have any trouble choosing between two otherwise identical (hypothetical) candidates one of whom is black (and thus presumably unlike you) and one of whom is white (and thus presumably like you)?

Well, the way it is worded I would have one problem, that of the hungry mule halfway between two equally delicious buckets, one of oats and one of corn. I'd starve from frozen indecision since there is no way to choose. But I think you are asking if I would take race into account, and the answer is no. There are more important factors beyond race that would permit me to identify with one over the other, such as demeanor--For example I am immediately drawn to down-to-earth types as opposed to scholarly-acting types.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,16:13   

Has anyone asked the current Mrs. McCain what she thinks of the choice of Mrs. Palin to be traveling with Mr. McCain?

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,16:19   

uh-oh:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/156679

Quote
Except for the national spotlight, Wasilla Bible Church resembles thousands of conservative evangelical churches across the country. Its statement of faith says its members believe that the Bible is the "inspired, inerrant word of God."


Quote
This past Sunday, worship at the Assembly of God fellowship in Wasilla was as euphoric as the Bible Church was staid. The congregation of about 100 was on its feet, shouting and clapping. Some members on another Sunday might murmur and keen in low voices, the sound of speaking in tongues.


Yay, church of gibberish. Perfect for Republicans!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,16:59   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,21:20)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,11:42)
So to follow-on the follow-on, would you have any trouble choosing between two otherwise identical (hypothetical) candidates one of whom is black (and thus presumably unlike you) and one of whom is white (and thus presumably like you)?

Well, the way it is worded I would have one problem, that of the hungry mule halfway between two equally delicious buckets, one of oats and one of corn. I'd starve from frozen indecision since there is no way to choose. But I think you are asking if I would take race into account, and the answer is no. There are more important factors beyond race that would permit me to identify with one over the other, such as demeanor--For example I am immediately drawn to down-to-earth types as opposed to scholarly-acting types.

And this has what to do with NASCAR?

Sooooooo, tell me about your mother....

;-)

You're right it's a race question, and like I said, I didn't expect you to have any issue other than the one you mentioned ("lucky donkey" problem). Also like I said, I'm trying to map the extent of this "vote for the candidate like me" idea. It strikes me as an awfully daft way to vote, but then no doubt there is some subtlety I'm missing.

Same question with one gay candidate and one straight candidate.

Same question again with one male candidate and one female candidate.

I'm guessing neither of these would present you with anything other than a "lucky donkey" problem like you describe above. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Are religion, class and demeanour the only "personal" factors that matter to you?

Leaving aside issues of competency/corruption etc.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,17:27   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,16:20)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,11:42)
So to follow-on the follow-on, would you have any trouble choosing between two otherwise identical (hypothetical) candidates one of whom is black (and thus presumably unlike you) and one of whom is white (and thus presumably like you)?

Well, the way it is worded I would have one problem, that of the hungry mule halfway between two equally delicious buckets, one of oats and one of corn. I'd starve from frozen indecision since there is no way to choose. But I think you are asking if I would take race into account, and the answer is no. There are more important factors beyond race that would permit me to identify with one over the other, such as demeanor--For example I am immediately drawn to down-to-earth types as opposed to scholarly-acting types.

Well, I'm glad that we have people like you who will look at the issues and vote...oh wait...

Y'know, it's attitudes like this that put shrub in the office.  How many people said they voted for him because Gore was too smart or not likeable enough, or that they felt they could have a beer with shrub?

Sad.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,17:57   

Quote (GCT @ Sep. 02 2008,17:27)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,16:20)
   
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,11:42)
So to follow-on the follow-on, would you have any trouble choosing between two otherwise identical (hypothetical) candidates one of whom is black (and thus presumably unlike you) and one of whom is white (and thus presumably like you)?

Well, the way it is worded I would have one problem, that of the hungry mule halfway between two equally delicious buckets, one of oats and one of corn. I'd starve from frozen indecision since there is no way to choose. But I think you are asking if I would take race into account, and the answer is no. There are more important factors beyond race that would permit me to identify with one over the other, such as demeanor--For example I am immediately drawn to down-to-earth types as opposed to scholarly-acting types.

Well, I'm glad that we have people like you who will look at the issues and vote...oh wait...

Y'know, it's attitudes like this that put shrub in the office.  How many people said they voted for him because Gore was too smart or not likeable enough, or that they felt they could have a beer with shrub?

Sad.

Democracy sucks. Maybe you could institute a "you must cogently explain the issues'' voting poll to weed out those unprofitable citizens like me who trust our gut (sometimes resulting in utter failure) more than those who trust the issues (because candidates always tell the truth about what policies they will pursue.)

Edit: typo

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,18:00   

Quote (GCT @ Sep. 02 2008,15:27)
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,16:20)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,11:42)
So to follow-on the follow-on, would you have any trouble choosing between two otherwise identical (hypothetical) candidates one of whom is black (and thus presumably unlike you) and one of whom is white (and thus presumably like you)?

Well, the way it is worded I would have one problem, that of the hungry mule halfway between two equally delicious buckets, one of oats and one of corn. I'd starve from frozen indecision since there is no way to choose. But I think you are asking if I would take race into account, and the answer is no. There are more important factors beyond race that would permit me to identify with one over the other, such as demeanor--For example I am immediately drawn to down-to-earth types as opposed to scholarly-acting types.

Well, I'm glad that we have people like you who will look at the issues and vote...oh wait...

Y'know, it's attitudes like this that put shrub in the office.  How many people said they voted for him because Gore was too smart or not likeable enough, or that they felt they could have a beer with shrub?

Sad.

In defence of dheddle, I think almost everyone does this on some level.  Not everyone is honest enough to admit it.  It's why so much effort and money is put into cultivating a candidate's image.  

Presenting a Yale-educated scion of one of Connecticut's wealthiest families as a horny-handed Texas brush-clearer wasn't done on a whim, and it wasn't done just to lure the mouth-breathing rednecks - there aren't that many of them, and most of them don't vote.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,18:00   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 01 2008,23:31)
Advice to Sarah Palin: Whatever they offer, don't accept that offer of a special guest appearance on "Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader?"

Advice to Joe Biden, if you are on "Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader?" it would be considered gauche to challenge one of the kids to an IQ face-off.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,18:09   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,16:59)
You're right it's a race question, and like I said, I didn't expect you to have any issue other than the one you mentioned ("lucky donkey" problem). Also like I said, I'm trying to map the extent of this "vote for the candidate like me" idea. It strikes me as an awfully daft way to vote, but then no doubt there is some subtlety I'm missing.

Are religion, class and demeanour the only "personal" factors that matter to you?

No subtlety. Maybe just an acknowledgement that the strategy has limitations. There are positions outrageous enough that no matter how much I identified with the candidate I wouldn't vote for him or her.

BTW, same answer for the other groups you mentioned.

No, I also like someone who looks like they can speak extemporaneously. Obama seems pretty good, McCain less so, and Biden most susceptible, at toxic concentrations, to foot-in-mouth. Palin seems quite good based on the few interviews I've seen--time will tell.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,18:37   

i'm with you as far as democracy sucks.  i would like a scale dependent caveat on that though.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
GCT



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,19:14   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,18:57)
Quote (GCT @ Sep. 02 2008,17:27)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,16:20)
     
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,11:42)
So to follow-on the follow-on, would you have any trouble choosing between two otherwise identical (hypothetical) candidates one of whom is black (and thus presumably unlike you) and one of whom is white (and thus presumably like you)?

Well, the way it is worded I would have one problem, that of the hungry mule halfway between two equally delicious buckets, one of oats and one of corn. I'd starve from frozen indecision since there is no way to choose. But I think you are asking if I would take race into account, and the answer is no. There are more important factors beyond race that would permit me to identify with one over the other, such as demeanor--For example I am immediately drawn to down-to-earth types as opposed to scholarly-acting types.

Well, I'm glad that we have people like you who will look at the issues and vote...oh wait...

Y'know, it's attitudes like this that put shrub in the office.  How many people said they voted for him because Gore was too smart or not likeable enough, or that they felt they could have a beer with shrub?

Sad.

Democracy sucks. Maybe you could institute a "you must cogently explain the issues'' voting poll to weed out those unprofitable citizens like me who trust our gut (sometimes resulting in utter failure) more than those who trust the issues (because candidates always tell the truth about what policies they will pursue.)

Edit: typo

At least looking at their stances on the issues whether they are telling the absolute truth or not (and many times you can tell) is better than voting based on how they look or some other superficial trait.

  
GCT



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,19:17   

Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 02 2008,19:00)
Quote (GCT @ Sep. 02 2008,15:27)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 02 2008,16:20)
 
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,11:42)
So to follow-on the follow-on, would you have any trouble choosing between two otherwise identical (hypothetical) candidates one of whom is black (and thus presumably unlike you) and one of whom is white (and thus presumably like you)?

Well, the way it is worded I would have one problem, that of the hungry mule halfway between two equally delicious buckets, one of oats and one of corn. I'd starve from frozen indecision since there is no way to choose. But I think you are asking if I would take race into account, and the answer is no. There are more important factors beyond race that would permit me to identify with one over the other, such as demeanor--For example I am immediately drawn to down-to-earth types as opposed to scholarly-acting types.

Well, I'm glad that we have people like you who will look at the issues and vote...oh wait...

Y'know, it's attitudes like this that put shrub in the office.  How many people said they voted for him because Gore was too smart or not likeable enough, or that they felt they could have a beer with shrub?

Sad.

In defence of dheddle, I think almost everyone does this on some level.  Not everyone is honest enough to admit it.  It's why so much effort and money is put into cultivating a candidate's image.  

Presenting a Yale-educated scion of one of Connecticut's wealthiest families as a horny-handed Texas brush-clearer wasn't done on a whim, and it wasn't done just to lure the mouth-breathing rednecks - there aren't that many of them, and most of them don't vote.

Of course they did, because image is everything in a world of too-lazy, sound-byte wanting public that would rather have an average joe in the most powerful office in the world than someone who is smart, level-headed, and all that.  I mean, c'mon.  If you are going to vote based on perception politics, at least go with the guy who you perceive is best for the office, not the one you think is the most mediocre.  People voted for shrub exactly because he was mediocre.  Now, people are going to vote for McCain because Palin goes to the right church?

ETA:  And, there's no reason to defend Heddle on this.  In fact, I hold him in lower regard than the uneducated, backwoods guy, simply because Heddle DOES have the education and should have the ability to make informed decisions.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,19:54   

GCT choosing between a runny turd and a lumpy turd ain't exactly free will.  How can you hold coerced people responsible for decisions that have no effect on any perceivable endpoint I find hard to understand.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,21:17   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 02 2008,20:54)
GCT choosing between a runny turd and a lumpy turd ain't exactly free will.  How can you hold coerced people responsible for decisions that have no effect on any perceivable endpoint I find hard to understand.

Yeah, we never have the best people running, but I hardly find that to be a legitimate excuse for voting for someone like shrub, especially when he was voted specifically because he wasn't as qualified for the job.

And, I fail to see what you mean by coerced people.  Heddle can look up the issues instead of voting for McCain simply because Palin goes to the right church.

And, yeah, the platforms are pretty well similar, but there are some differences, and some important ones.  Roe v. Wade?  War in Iran?  Continued presence in Iraq?  You don't have to agree with me, but at least have the decency to look up what's being debated.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,23:16   

no my friend it is not about decency or agreeing with you.  I'm sure we agree on a lot of things, but apparently the point where we disagree regards the importance of participating in the process.  I refuse to legitimize this miserable failure of a circus with my input, and I won't shoulder the blame (nor do i accept "can't complain if you don't vote" because that presupposes so much that is an affront to the senses and reason that I am astounded that it passes for argument, in some circles).

I don't know your politics but such a nonsensical dichotomous 'choice' (for what, even to the average fundie, only passes for leadership) is to me validation for the contention that one should expect the absolute worst form of self serving imperialist bipartisan hegemony when considering the possible constitution of the next electorate.  

the worst part is, the rest of the world is now trying to adopt this model.  at least the resource extraction industrial countries.  they turned the enlightenment around on it's head and ignored william blake.

Every harlot was a virgin once.

Now back on OT:  i know yosemite mcsame is paying lip service to intelligent design and i know he is a panderer just like all these other douchebags.  how organized is this new front of inserting creotard asshattery  state-by-state into school curriculum and textbooks?  How many other states are doing what LA is getting ready to do, if only the get the green light from a new Republican administration?  

to be honest i can't see democrats not doing the same thing if it would get them votes.  they are all unprincipled, after all.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,23:21   

To be fair, I don't think the system is conducive to idealists - and we may not want one to the extent that idealism is at odds with pragmatism.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,04:13   

Quote (GCT @ Sep. 02 2008,21:17)
     
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 02 2008,20:54)
GCT choosing between a runny turd and a lumpy turd ain't exactly free will.  How can you hold coerced people responsible for decisions that have no effect on any perceivable endpoint I find hard to understand.

Yeah, we never have the best people running, but I hardly find that to be a legitimate excuse for voting for someone like shrub, especially when he was voted specifically because he wasn't as qualified for the job.

And, I fail to see what you mean by coerced people.  Heddle can look up the issues instead of voting for McCain simply because Palin goes to the right church.

And, yeah, the platforms are pretty well similar, but there are some differences, and some important ones.  Roe v. Wade?  War in Iran?  Continued presence in Iraq?  You don't have to agree with me, but at least have the decency to look up what's being debated.

You have made a mistake. I don't need to look up the issues. I know about the issues. Why, I bet my issues IQ is higher than yours! I didn't say that I don't know the issues. No, the point is twofold: in a aggregate sense I don't see much difference--that is on some issues I tend to be Republican, some Democratic, and it more or less is a wash. (Other libertarian leaning voters will recognize the problem--we don't fit in either major party.) Then there is the fact that once elected candidates tend to give in to expediency anyway. How many Republicans have promised to reduce government, and how many have succeeded?

No my friend, it is not that I don't know the issues, it that I choose (to a limited extent) not to vote by them. Issue voting will break your heart everytime.

[Aside: Palin goes to the right church? She has switched to a Reformed Baptist Church?]

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,04:35   

Note: I'm a dirty jurropean, so I won't even pretend to understand US electoral politics.

There are however other metrics than issues or personality that you can vote by.

Who are their backers, financially and politically. With only two major parties, from which faction within the respective parties do the candidates come?

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,05:14   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 03 2008,10:13)
[SNIP]

No my friend, it is not that I don't know the issues, it that I choose (to a limited extent) not to vote by them. Issue voting will break your heart everytime.

[SNIP]

Ahhhh good. I knew I was being overly pessimistic about your voting strategy. Faith in Heddle restored, such as it was! ;-)

I don't agree with you as a matter of personal responsibility, issue voting might break my heart but it's my job to do it, but at least I understand where you are coming from. Personally, I think giving into the politics of despair is an abrogation of one's democratic duties. YMMV.

Oh and it ain't just libertarians, or USAians, who find the "two(ish) party" political model unsatisfactory on several levels. There is no party that represents me in pretty much any nation (and I've looked!). Hence why I advocate no small measure of political and social change.....

But that's another story.

Louis

ETA: Ok ok so I'm going to comment further dammit. I tried to avoid it, but meh, I'm a total bastard, might as well not break the habit of a lifetime.

This (perhaps limited) abandonment of your political and intellectual duties annoys me for its pathetic fatalism, Heddle.

Yes politicians make promises they don't keep. Yes politicians make claims about the issues they later on forget. Yes the systems of government we have are not perfect. So? Unless we as the electorate actually make the effort to change things (and let's be blunt, it ain't that big an effort) then we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past forever. We are going to get fucked over, we are going to get lied to and we are going to elect politicians that go back on their campaign promises.

The only way to make this happen less is to ENGAGE in the political process to an extent that it causes personal cost. Claiming you "know the issues and don't need to investigate them further" is an abrogation of your duty as a capable citizen. I'd go as far as to say it is an abrogation of your civic duty as a scientist and an academic. I seriously doubt, no matter how high you claim you "issues IQ" to be, that you are conversant with all the details of all the relevant issues, or even anything approaching 50% of them. I seriously doubt anyone is. Reducing any part of your decision on who to vote for to the popularity contest style you advocate above is worse than merely shrugging your shoulders, it's active participation in the very causes of your own fatalism.

I speak as someone who used to do this as a younger bloke out of a combination of apathy and identical fatalism. Comedy slogans abound "Don't vote, the government might get in", "Don't vote, it only encourages them" etc. I even stood in a mock election as the Monster Raving Loony candidate (an election I won by a landslide I might add) to mock the futility of the political process. My views on futility and "satirisability" have not changed, my acknowledgement that I have a very hard won duty has. The more I read about politics and history the stronger that duty weighs.

So it's my job to protest at policies I disagree with. It's my job to investigate the issues as thoroughly as I can and vote with the best available evidence. It's my duty to reach out where possible and inform others (if needs be). It's especially my job to do so honestly on scientific matters (as a professional scientist) especially those closely linked to my own area of research. It's even more especially my job to chase down any semblance of uncriticised dogma or belief on my part and justify it on a rational basis if possible, or abandon it. That's as true of politics as it is of science.

To abandon any of that with a fatalistic shrug of the shoulders to any degree is an abandonment of my responsibilities as a citizen. Worse, to realise this AND THEN to abandon it, is as gross a dereliction of my democratic duties as is imaginable.

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Bye.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,07:48   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 03 2008,04:13)
Issue voting will break your heart everytime.

And values voting will break the country.

Good choice.

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,07:54   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 03 2008,07:48)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 03 2008,04:13)
Issue voting will break your heart everytime.

And values voting will break the country.

Good choice.

Well, I do tend to be Calvinistic about these things.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,08:50   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 03 2008,13:54)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 03 2008,07:48)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 03 2008,04:13)
Issue voting will break your heart everytime.

And values voting will break the country.

Good choice.

Well, I do tend to be Calvinistic about these things.

In the sense of unconditional election or total depravity?

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,09:26   

heat death.

i'd rather go fishing.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,09:51   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 03 2008,15:26)
heat death.

i'd rather go fishing.

Meh, who wouldn't?*

The sad thing is: cunts abound, ergo we can't fish all the time.

That's the tragedy of reality.

Louis

*For those who don't fish, and I'm one of them, insert your favourite activity. I fished as a kid, dammit I AM from the coast after all. But nowadays.....not so much.

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Bye.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,17:28   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 03 2008,00:16)
no my friend it is not about decency or agreeing with you.  I'm sure we agree on a lot of things, but apparently the point where we disagree regards the importance of participating in the process.  I refuse to legitimize this miserable failure of a circus with my input, and I won't shoulder the blame (nor do i accept "can't complain if you don't vote" because that presupposes so much that is an affront to the senses and reason that I am astounded that it passes for argument, in some circles).

Then why defend Heddle for "legitimiz[ing] this miserable failure of a circus with [his] input" especially when his input plays into the lowest of the lowest common denominator?  That's the point.  If you are taking a principled stand against voting because you refuse to vote just to vote against someone, then that's one thing.  I used to do that myself until I changed my mind and decided that having shrub in office was just too dangerous and that I could hold my nose long enough to vote for the other guy (based on the issues I might add).  Whatever.  But, that's certainly not what Heddle is doing.  He's doing his part to make this even more of a circus by doing exactly what they want him to do, and that is vote for their guy simply because he likes the cut of their guy's jib (or simply because their woman goes to the right church).  If you object to our electoral system because it has been made into a mockery, then you should surely object to Heddle's participation making it into even more of a mockery!
 
Quote
I don't know your politics but such a nonsensical dichotomous 'choice' (for what, even to the average fundie, only passes for leadership) is to me validation for the contention that one should expect the absolute worst form of self serving imperialist bipartisan hegemony when considering the possible constitution of the next electorate.  

the worst part is, the rest of the world is now trying to adopt this model.  at least the resource extraction industrial countries.  they turned the enlightenment around on it's head and ignored william blake.

I'm not even going to try and argue with this, because I happen to agree with pretty much all of it.  The only thing I disagree with is that there are some differences (however small) between the parties and these are important differences.  It might not be filet mignon, but there's a difference between eating some edible and eating rocks (or sh*t).

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,17:31   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 03 2008,05:13)
No my friend, it is not that I don't know the issues, it that I choose (to a limited extent) not to vote by them. Issue voting will break your heart everytime.

And this helps your argument how?

  
GCT



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Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,17:35   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Sep. 03 2008,05:35)
There are however other metrics than issues or personality that you can vote by.

Who are their backers, financially and politically. With only two major parties, from which faction within the respective parties do the candidates come?

I tend to lump that sort of analysis in with the issues.

  
GCT



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Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,17:37   


  
Erasmus, FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,20:40   

i suppose my disagreements with those folks are on axes orthogonal to the 'issues'.  i am not defending heddle for voting for whoever whenever whatever, i am saying when voter participation is such a scam you might as well frikkin vote for whoever.  it doesn't matter what brand of lunatic is in there, i don't think.  they are all despicable and i wouldn't piss on their grandmothers if their feet were on fire.  any honest man or woman wouldn't want the job.  so i like the fact that it's all a nascar race to heddle, but i suppose there are less titties and no bocephus at his party.  i could be wrong and would be thrilled to be wrong about this as a matter of fact.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,21:23   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 03 2008,21:40)
it doesn't matter what brand of lunatic is in there, i don't think.

Really?  Do you think we'd be in Iraq right now had shrub not been elected?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,21:43   

I hope she leads better than she names kids.
Trig and trix and boff and spug or whatever...

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Erasmus, FCD



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Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,22:27   

if not iraq somewhere else.  it's good for business you know.  keep on yanking on that window, makes jobs.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,22:57   

I can't wait for the debates now. I wonder if they'll frame her as a dribbling fundie?

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,04:32   

Let's get this thread back around to the topic. I'd like to see the focus get back on antievolution in the presidential race specifically.

Thanks.



Quote
Marvel Toilet by Dplanet::


Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 04 2008,05:44

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,11:06   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,20:57)
I can't wait for the debates now. I wonder if they'll frame her as a dribbling fundie?

I assume there will be a Palin-Biden debate, in which case I'd like to see him take on her support for the teaching of creationism in science classes.  If the usual pattern holds (the closer we get to the election, the more timid the Dems get), it won't happen, though.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,11:08   

Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 04 2008,11:06)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,20:57)
I can't wait for the debates now. I wonder if they'll frame her as a dribbling fundie?

I assume there will be a Palin-Biden debate, in which case I'd like to see him take on her support for the teaching of creationism in science classes.  If the usual pattern holds (the closer we get to the election, the more timid the Dems get), it won't happen, though.

The issue is that her stance, whilst wrong, is a popular one. For every you shaking your head there may be two people nodding.

I think the way to adress it may be to ask how she came to her opinions - being better informed is a good start.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,11:18   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 04 2008,11:08)
Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 04 2008,11:06)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,20:57)
I can't wait for the debates now. I wonder if they'll frame her as a dribbling fundie?

I assume there will be a Palin-Biden debate, in which case I'd like to see him take on her support for the teaching of creationism in science classes.  If the usual pattern holds (the closer we get to the election, the more timid the Dems get), it won't happen, though.

The issue is that her stance, whilst wrong, is a popular one. For every you shaking your head there may be two people nodding.

I think the way to adress it may be to ask how she came to her opinions - being better informed is a good start.

Richard - I second your motion.  Now, if we can just get everyone else to go along with it...

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,18:43   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,22:57)
I can't wait for the debates now. I wonder if they'll frame her as a dribbling fundie?

Just now getting a chance to check in here today, and I noticed Rich's snide comment.  I swear to God I burst out laughing.  After her outstanding speech last night, it may be Biden that is left dribbling and sputtering.  

That gal certainly doesn't come across as anything other than intelligent, extremely well spoken, and likeable.  She's fiesty as hell, and I'd bet money that neither Obama, Biden or even McCain himself could match wits with her.  

If her debate style is anything similiar to what we saw from her speech last night, it will probably end of being one of the most enjoyable debates I've even seen as far as political side shows go.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,18:44   

DaveScot tells everybody what's what at Pharyngula. Sarah Palin is going to be "teh American Margaret Thatcher." Write that down!

Finally, someone is going to make you chance worshipers pay for your crimes.

--------------
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,19:28   

Full screed:

Quote
Posted by: DaveScot | September 4, 2008 5:49 PM

You finally got one right, PZ. This IS how you will lose.

Even totally united behind Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004 you couldn't beat a dumbass draft dodging reborn alcoholic George "Shrub" Bush and his snake-oil sidekick Dick Cheney of all people. That's pretty pathetic. This round you've got an even worse candidate that half of your own party thinks stole the nomination by cheating and dirty politics. Your party is shattered up the middle and you have the worst candidate in all the decades I've been paying attention. I knew Jack Kennedy and your nominee, PZ, is no Jack Kennedy.

Now the culture war is still on, the players are all the same on both sides, except this time we have an honest-to-God centrist war hero, even if he is an elitist beltway insider, and a little unheard of cutie, obviously a political savant, who in 30 minutes won the hearts and minds of every heretofore apathetic God fearing blue collar flyover family all across the nation and made them start caring about who wins this election not to mention is stealing a lot of the Hillary voters who wanted nothing more than a woman in the Whitehouse. If McCain wins then Palin, sooner or later, is going to become the first woman president of the United States as by the time she's up for election to the top spot there won't be any question of lack of experience. You are basically looking at teh American Margaret Thatcher. Get used to her. She's going to be in your face for the next 16 years. It's all over except for the tears and anger from your side that you were fucked yet again. Write that down.


--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,19:36   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 04 2008,18:43)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,22:57)
I can't wait for the debates now. I wonder if they'll frame her as a dribbling fundie?

Just now getting a chance to check in here today, and I noticed Rich's snide comment.  I swear to God I burst out laughing.  After her outstanding speech last night, it may be Biden that is left dribbling and sputtering.  

That gal certainly doesn't come across as anything other than intelligent, extremely well spoken, and likeable.  She's fiesty as hell, and I'd bet money that neither Obama, Biden or even McCain himself could match wits with her.  

If her debate style is anything similiar to what we saw from her speech last night, it will probably end of being one of the most enjoyable debates I've even seen as far as political side shows go.

Do you know what "frame" means, FtK?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,19:43   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 04 2008,19:28)
Full screed:

Quote
Posted by: DaveScot | September 4, 2008 5:49 PM

You finally got one right, PZ. This IS how you will lose.

Even totally united behind Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004 you couldn't beat a dumbass draft dodging reborn alcoholic George "Shrub" Bush and his snake-oil sidekick Dick Cheney of all people. That's pretty pathetic. This round you've got an even worse candidate that half of your own party thinks stole the nomination by cheating and dirty politics. Your party is shattered up the middle and you have the worst candidate in all the decades I've been paying attention. I knew Jack Kennedy and your nominee, PZ, is no Jack Kennedy.

Now the culture war is still on, the players are all the same on both sides, except this time we have an honest-to-God centrist war hero, even if he is an elitist beltway insider, and a little unheard of cutie, obviously a political savant, who in 30 minutes won the hearts and minds of every heretofore apathetic God fearing blue collar flyover family all across the nation and made them start caring about who wins this election not to mention is stealing a lot of the Hillary voters who wanted nothing more than a woman in the Whitehouse. If McCain wins then Palin, sooner or later, is going to become the first woman president of the United States as by the time she's up for election to the top spot there won't be any question of lack of experience. You are basically looking at teh American Margaret Thatcher. Get used to her. She's going to be in your face for the next 16 years. It's all over except for the tears and anger from your side that you were fucked yet again. Write that down.

Is this the same Dave from 2005 who predicted
Quote
Judge John E. Jones on the other hand is a good old boy brought up through the conservative ranks. He was state attorney for D.A.R.E, an Assistant Scout Master with extensively involved with local and national Boy Scouts of America, political buddy of Governor Tom Ridge (who in turn is deep in George W. Bush’s circle of power), and finally was appointed by GW hisself. Senator Rick Santorum is a Pennsylvanian in the same circles (author of the “Santorum Language” that encourages schools to teach the controversy) and last but far from least, George W. Bush hisself drove a stake in the ground saying teach the controversy. Unless Judge Jones wants to cut his career off at the knees he isn’t going to rule against the wishes of his political allies. Of course the ACLU will appeal. This won’t be over until it gets to the Supreme Court. But now we own that too.

 
???

--------------
Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,19:45   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 04 2008,18:43)

That gal certainly doesn't come across as anything other than intelligent, extremely well spoken, and likeable.  She's fiesty as hell, and I'd bet money that neither Obama, Biden or even McCain himself could match wits with her.

Her speech? I guess she had so many wits that other people had to retool the "outstanding" speech they had already written for a male VP candidate, eh, FtK?

Jesus was kind of a community organizer, and Pontius Pilate was a governor. Yeah, I can understand why fake Christians like you lap that shit up.

What about the blatant lie about the bridge to nowhere? Do you agree that we're doing "God's work" in Iraq?

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,21:21   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 04 2008,18:43)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,22:57)
I can't wait for the debates now. I wonder if they'll frame her as a dribbling fundie?

Just now getting a chance to check in here today, and I noticed Rich's snide comment.  I swear to God I burst out laughing.  After her outstanding speech last night, it may be Biden that is left dribbling and sputtering.  

That gal certainly doesn't come across as anything other than intelligent, extremely well spoken, and likeable.  She's fiesty as hell, and I'd bet money that neither Obama, Biden or even McCain himself could match wits with her.  

If her debate style is anything similiar to what we saw from her speech last night, it will probably end of being one of the most enjoyable debates I've even seen as far as political side shows go.

FTK - WTF???!!!

Are you watching the same Sarah Palin as I am??!!

She comes accross as just another self-serving lying bag of horse dung - and a dumb one at that!

However, I must admit she is a good fit for the McCain-Bush ticket.

And BTW FTK - STAY OFF OF HIS LAWNS!!&^%$#!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,22:14   

I do love "the daily show"..

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,22:35   

My gut reaction to Palin during her speech: Quite mixed.

Speech cadences and tonality worse than fingernails on chalkboard. On radio she comes across as a giggling hag.

But quite beautiful, with abundant Q-factor and watchability. TV works for her. Very confident and naturally sunny and, in a way, charismatic. She'll be liked by the Republican base.

Also, objectively, she must be a smart and capable woman. You don't get where she has without some of that.

But I also found her snide, sarcastic, abrasive, smug, and obnoxious. Simultaneously spunky and smug. Smunky.

Smunky isn't so good.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2008,22:53   

She the republican's best chance not to occupy the "80 year old man with his belt up by his nipples" mental  space...

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2008,05:13   

Quote (csadams @ Sep. 04 2008,20:43)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 04 2008,19:28)
Full screed:

 
Quote
Posted by: DaveScot | September 4, 2008 5:49 PM

You finally got one right, PZ. This IS how you will lose.

Even totally united behind Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004 you couldn't beat a dumbass draft dodging reborn alcoholic George "Shrub" Bush and his snake-oil sidekick Dick Cheney of all people. That's pretty pathetic. This round you've got an even worse candidate that half of your own party thinks stole the nomination by cheating and dirty politics. Your party is shattered up the middle and you have the worst candidate in all the decades I've been paying attention. I knew Jack Kennedy and your nominee, PZ, is no Jack Kennedy.

Now the culture war is still on, the players are all the same on both sides, except this time we have an honest-to-God centrist war hero, even if he is an elitist beltway insider, and a little unheard of cutie, obviously a political savant, who in 30 minutes won the hearts and minds of every heretofore apathetic God fearing blue collar flyover family all across the nation and made them start caring about who wins this election not to mention is stealing a lot of the Hillary voters who wanted nothing more than a woman in the Whitehouse. If McCain wins then Palin, sooner or later, is going to become the first woman president of the United States as by the time she's up for election to the top spot there won't be any question of lack of experience. You are basically looking at teh American Margaret Thatcher. Get used to her. She's going to be in your face for the next 16 years. It's all over except for the tears and anger from your side that you were fucked yet again. Write that down.

Is this the same Dave from 2005 who predicted  
Quote
Judge John E. Jones on the other hand is a good old boy brought up through the conservative ranks. He was state attorney for D.A.R.E, an Assistant Scout Master with extensively involved with local and national Boy Scouts of America, political buddy of Governor Tom Ridge (who in turn is deep in George W. Bush’s circle of power), and finally was appointed by GW hisself. Senator Rick Santorum is a Pennsylvanian in the same circles (author of the “Santorum Language” that encourages schools to teach the controversy) and last but far from least, George W. Bush hisself drove a stake in the ground saying teach the controversy. Unless Judge Jones wants to cut his career off at the knees he isn’t going to rule against the wishes of his political allies. Of course the ACLU will appeal. This won’t be over until it gets to the Supreme Court. But now we own that too.

 
???

That is exactly what popped into my head, as soon as I read Davey's first sentence.

Meanwhile, I see that Ftk and reality are forging ahead with the divorce proceedings.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2008,05:22   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 05 2008,11:13)
[SNIP]

Meanwhile, I see that Ftk and reality are forging ahead with the divorce proceedings.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa WHOA!

FTK and reality knew each other? I wasn't aware they'd ever been in the same room.

That aside, the gloating drivel of FTK and Davey boy is the standard crapola. Pay it no mind. It's just yet another piece of data in the "team identity" psychosis they present.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2008,05:32   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 05 2008,06:43)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,22:57)
I can't wait for the debates now. I wonder if they'll frame her as a dribbling fundie?

Just now getting a chance to check in here today, and I noticed Rich's snide comment.  I swear to God I burst out laughing.  After her outstanding speech last night, it may be Biden that is left dribbling and sputtering.  

That gal certainly doesn't come across as anything other than intelligent, extremely well spoken, and likeable.  She's fiesty as hell, and I'd bet money that neither Obama, Biden or even McCain himself could match wits with her.  

If her debate style is anything similiar to what we saw from her speech last night, it will probably end of being one of the most enjoyable debates I've even seen as far as political side shows go.

I heard bits of her speech and thought she was very well spoken but I knocked me over how many errors in fact she said in one speech. I also thought that people like FTK would lap it up liking spin over substance.

I thought it was quite scary and more like something you would hear on LGF rather than something that an informed future leader would say.

But I suppose there are a lot of people like Ftk who never let facts stand in the way of forming an opinion.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2008,06:41   

Ftk has weighed in on Palin at Risible Kansans:

"Inexperienced my ass."

The opposite of which is...

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
ck1



Posts: 65
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,10:54   

Quote (csadams @ Sep. 04 2008,19:43)
       
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 04 2008,19:28)
Full screed:

         
Quote
Posted by: DaveScot | September 4, 2008 5:49 PM

You finally got one right, PZ. This IS how you will lose.

Even totally united behind Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004 you couldn't beat a dumbass draft dodging reborn alcoholic George "Shrub" Bush and his snake-oil sidekick Dick Cheney of all people. That's pretty pathetic. This round you've got an even worse candidate that half of your own party thinks stole the nomination by cheating and dirty politics. Your party is shattered up the middle and you have the worst candidate in all the decades I've been paying attention. I knew Jack Kennedy and your nominee, PZ, is no Jack Kennedy.

Now the culture war is still on, the players are all the same on both sides, except this time we have an honest-to-God centrist war hero, even if he is an elitist beltway insider, and a little unheard of cutie, obviously a political savant, who in 30 minutes won the hearts and minds of every heretofore apathetic God fearing blue collar flyover family all across the nation and made them start caring about who wins this election not to mention is stealing a lot of the Hillary voters who wanted nothing more than a woman in the Whitehouse. If McCain wins then Palin, sooner or later, is going to become the first woman president of the United States as by the time she's up for election to the top spot there won't be any question of lack of experience. You are basically looking at teh American Margaret Thatcher. Get used to her. She's going to be in your face for the next 16 years. It's all over except for the tears and anger from your side that you were fucked yet again. Write that down.

Is this the same Dave from 2005 who predicted          
Quote
Judge John E. Jones on the other hand is a good old boy brought up through the conservative ranks. He was state attorney for D.A.R.E, an Assistant Scout Master with extensively involved with local and national Boy Scouts of America, political buddy of Governor Tom Ridge (who in turn is deep in George W. Bush’s circle of power), and finally was appointed by GW hisself. Senator Rick Santorum is a Pennsylvanian in the same circles (author of the “Santorum Language” that encourages schools to teach the controversy) and last but far from least, George W. Bush hisself drove a stake in the ground saying teach the controversy. Unless Judge Jones wants to cut his career off at the knees he isn’t going to rule against the wishes of his political allies. Of course the ACLU will appeal. This won’t be over until it gets to the Supreme Court. But now we own that too.

 
???

There is an important difference in these two predictions.  On the one hand, the outcome depends on the decision of a single highly-educated jurist, on the other, on the choices made by ordinary voting Americans:

"And in all of this we should not leave out the role of the much heralded ordinary American. One reason the Republicans find such fertile ground for their shamelessness is that this is fundamentally a right-wing country. My liberal friends find it difficult to accept this, but to me it seems obviously true. Why do you suppose that Republicans trumpet their pro-life credentials, but Democrats try to change the subject when it comes to abortion? Why do Republicans run around bashing homosexuals, while Democrats quake in terror at the thought of having to say what they really think? Why do you suppose upwards of eighty percent of the country want to have some sort of creationism taught in science classes?

The answer is simple. It is that in each case the Republicans are defending the popular position."

http://scienceblogs.com/evoluti....ion.php

(sorry - don't remember how to add quote boxes here)

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,11:44   

Dheddle, FtK and others.

Here's a letter from a resident of Wasilla, Alaska. I'm sure you will find it interesting.

It's beginning to look more and more like she is just another venal small-town politician, now thrust onto a national stage. If she becomes VP, she will make Spiro T. Agnew proud...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,11:48   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 04 2008,19:43)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,22:57)
I can't wait for the debates now. I wonder if they'll frame her as a dribbling fundie?

Just now getting a chance to check in here today, and I noticed Rich's snide comment.  I swear to God I burst out laughing.  After her outstanding speech last night, it may be Biden that is left dribbling and sputtering.  

That gal certainly doesn't come across as anything other than intelligent, extremely well spoken, and likeable.  She's fiesty as hell, and I'd bet money that neither Obama, Biden or even McCain himself could match wits with her.  

If her debate style is anything similiar to what we saw from her speech last night, it will probably end of being one of the most enjoyable debates I've even seen as far as political side shows go.

How about those speech writers, eh?

What, you didn't think she wrote any of that, did you?

According to McCain's campaign, Palin will not be allowed to speak outside of scripted speeches and campaign appearances.

Apparently they don't think she is very intelligent, well spoken, or likable without someone to tell her what to say.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,11:54   

This seems like the right place to ask this question.

I'm trying to find a suitable moniker for the Republicans' Happy Couple. The need for this struck me as I was looking at PTET's excellent, sneering coverage of it all.

"Captain Geritol and Polar Barbie"?
"ditto and Igloo Barbie"?
"Fossil Man and Gospel Mama"?
"President POW and The Moose-Meat MILF"?

Your thoughts (FTK, it's in the dictionary)  and suggestions, please.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,11:57   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 04 2008,23:35)
But I also found her snide, sarcastic, abrasive, smug, and obnoxious. Simultaneously spunky and smug. Smunky.

Smunky isn't so good.

On the bright side, in 60 days you'll never have to think about her again.

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,12:22   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 06 2008,11:54)
This seems like the right place to ask this question.

I'm trying to find a suitable moniker for the Republicans' Happy Couple. The need for this struck me as I was looking at PTET's excellent, sneering coverage of it all.

"Captain Geritol and Polar Barbie"?
"ditto and Igloo Barbie"?
"Fossil Man and Gospel Mama"?
"President POW and The Moose-Meat MILF"?

Your thoughts (FTK, it's in the dictionary)  and suggestions, please.

I've heard "the maverick and the milf", but that gives them both too much credit.

I'm partial to "the flyboy and the flake" meself.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
qetzal



Posts: 311
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,12:38   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 06 2008,11:54)
This seems like the right place to ask this question.

I'm trying to find a suitable moniker for the Republicans' Happy Couple. The need for this struck me as I was looking at PTET's excellent, sneering coverage of it all.

"Captain Geritol and Polar Barbie"?
"ditto and Igloo Barbie"?
"Fossil Man and Gospel Mama"?
"President POW and The Moose-Meat MILF"?

Your thoughts (FTK, it's in the dictionary)  and suggestions, please.

Let's see. Who do we know that likes to give other politicians nicknames?

I know! Let's get Georgie!

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,13:46   

Evangelicals / Palin:

http://www.time.com/time....cnn=yes

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,13:50   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 04 2008,16:43)
She's fiesty as hell, and I'd bet money that neither Obama, Biden or even McCain himself could match wits with her.  

I agree that Palin is "fiesty (sic)." It is a perfect description since the word literally means "like a feist." We all know that feist is "a small snappish dog." The word feist itself derived from the Norman French name for a small fart. Totally appropriate, Palin is the very definition of feisty.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,16:35   

Quote (Nerull @ Sep. 06 2008,12:48)
Apparently they don't think she is very intelligent, well spoken, or likable without someone to tell her what to say.

How 'bout that?

I never thought I'd agree with that bunch of psychos on anything ever again...

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,16:38   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 06 2008,09:54)
This seems like the right place to ask this question.

I'm trying to find a suitable moniker for the Republicans' Happy Couple. The need for this struck me as I was looking at PTET's excellent, sneering coverage of it all.

"Captain Geritol and Polar Barbie"?
"ditto and Igloo Barbie"?
"Fossil Man and Gospel Mama"?
"President POW and The Moose-Meat MILF"?

Your thoughts (FTK, it's in the dictionary)  and suggestions, please.

I've seen "Gidget and the Geezer".

--------------
-Tom Ames

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,16:43   

All this reminds me of the way Reagan was ridiculed. Politics doesn't seem to favor rational thinking.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,16:50   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 06 2008,17:43)
Politics doesn't seem to favor rational thinking.

If it did, Palin's name would have never come up.


...and there wouldn't even be a Republican party as we know it.

And we wouldn't be here on this board, and all across the blogosphere spending enormous numbers of man-hours working endlessly to beat back the repeal of the Enlightenment.

So no. I suppose politics doesn't seem to favor rational thinking at all.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,16:55   

Quote (csadams @ Sep. 04 2008,17:43)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 04 2008,19:28)
Full screed:

 
Quote
Posted by: DaveScot | September 4, 2008 5:49 PM

You finally got one right, PZ. This IS how you will lose.

Even totally united behind Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004 you couldn't beat a dumbass draft dodging reborn alcoholic George "Shrub" Bush and his snake-oil sidekick Dick Cheney of all people. That's pretty pathetic. This round you've got an even worse candidate that half of your own party thinks stole the nomination by cheating and dirty politics. Your party is shattered up the middle and you have the worst candidate in all the decades I've been paying attention. I knew Jack Kennedy and your nominee, PZ, is no Jack Kennedy.

Now the culture war is still on, the players are all the same on both sides, except this time we have an honest-to-God centrist war hero, even if he is an elitist beltway insider, and a little unheard of cutie, obviously a political savant, who in 30 minutes won the hearts and minds of every heretofore apathetic God fearing blue collar flyover family all across the nation and made them start caring about who wins this election not to mention is stealing a lot of the Hillary voters who wanted nothing more than a woman in the Whitehouse. If McCain wins then Palin, sooner or later, is going to become the first woman president of the United States as by the time she's up for election to the top spot there won't be any question of lack of experience. You are basically looking at teh American Margaret Thatcher. Get used to her. She's going to be in your face for the next 16 years. It's all over except for the tears and anger from your side that you were fucked yet again. Write that down.

Is this the same Dave from 2005 who predicted  
Quote
Judge John E. Jones on the other hand is a good old boy brought up through the conservative ranks. He was state attorney for D.A.R.E, an Assistant Scout Master with extensively involved with local and national Boy Scouts of America, political buddy of Governor Tom Ridge (who in turn is deep in George W. Bush’s circle of power), and finally was appointed by GW hisself. Senator Rick Santorum is a Pennsylvanian in the same circles (author of the “Santorum Language” that encourages schools to teach the controversy) and last but far from least, George W. Bush hisself drove a stake in the ground saying teach the controversy. Unless Judge Jones wants to cut his career off at the knees he isn’t going to rule against the wishes of his political allies. Of course the ACLU will appeal. This won’t be over until it gets to the Supreme Court. But now we own that too.

 
???

Sounds like Bitter Old Dave's blogging while drunk. You'd think past experience would have taught him the folly of that.

Well, if Dave "we own that now, too" Springer is convinced that Mama Mooseburger is going to be in the White House for 16 years, I feel much better now.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,17:03   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 06 2008,12:22)
Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 06 2008,11:54)
This seems like the right place to ask this question.

I'm trying to find a suitable moniker for the Republicans' Happy Couple. The need for this struck me as I was looking at PTET's excellent, sneering coverage of it all.

"Captain Geritol and Polar Barbie"?
"ditto and Igloo Barbie"?
"Fossil Man and Gospel Mama"?
"President POW and The Moose-Meat MILF"?

Your thoughts (FTK, it's in the dictionary)  and suggestions, please.

I've heard "the maverick and the milf", but that gives them both too much credit.

I'm partial to "the flyboy and the flake" meself.

I like Flyboy and The Flake.

AND STAY OFF OF THEIR LAWNS !!!&^%$

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Erasmus, FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,17:16   

i don't see much rational thought from either 'side' of this circus.  a pox on all their houses.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,17:44   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 06 2008,17:16)
i don't see much rational thought from either 'side' of this circus.  a pox on all their houses.

Indeed.  The 2000 spectacle of Democrats arguing for, and Republicans against, state's rights told me everything I needed to know about politics. Internal consistency is the first victim in the quest for power.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,19:19   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 06 2008,17:16)
i don't see much rational thought from either 'side' of this circus.  a pox on all their houses.

I never got the American polarised politics anyway. That 2-party system (well technically speaking, it's not) only seems to evoke loads of bile and pure hate and not a fruitfull discussion on how to make your country a better place to live.
When I watch American politics, it looks like almost like an educated "yo momma" battle instead of "My plans are better then yours, and here's why." All the attention goes to the next grand speech from Obama, or the next add from McCain. But where are the discussions about the issues? Where are the economists discussing with eachother instead of the same old chatter about crap that in the end won't matter anyway. I'm still waiting for the facts, thát's usefull.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,21:25   

assassinator do you have a better plan?  say the world was your oyster, how ought we live?

i've often wondered what the axioms are that people work from that results in the conclusion that 'democracy is the best form of government' etc etc.  how do you get from 'I eat when I am hungry and sleep when I am tired' to 'We need a stronger national defense system' or 'Everyone has equal rights' etc.  Methinks there is a scam afoot but I'm not sure where it originated.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,07:03   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 06 2008,18:16)
i don't see much rational thought from either 'side' of this circus.  a pox on all their houses.

I posted this on the UD2 thread, but it's appropriate here:

Fatalistic cynicism and secession of our responsibility to participate knowledgeably in both the educational system and the electoral system is what brought this country to its knees.

We stand eyeball to eyeball with theocracy precisely because of attitudes just like that.

Now we each have a choice. We can either take up the mantle of that responsibility once again and expend great effort to drag this country and the world back toward the ideals of the Enlightenment, or we can capitulate to the rip tide of religious fundamentalism and drown in an ocean of ignorance.

It's true that voting for the current Democratic candidate is not swimming directly to shore, 'Ras. But like a swimmer caught in a rip current, it's just not possible to reach the shore that way. Just like that swimmer, we need to escape the rip current by swimming almost parallel to shore first, until we are in less dangerous waters. It's only then that we can turn fully toward safety.

Your choice, to not participate, is tantamount to surrender to the rip current.

I choose to swim.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,07:49   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 06 2008,21:25)
assassinator do you have a better plan?  say the world was your oyster, how ought we live?

i've often wondered what the axioms are that people work from that results in the conclusion that 'democracy is the best form of government' etc etc.  how do you get from 'I eat when I am hungry and sleep when I am tired' to 'We need a stronger national defense system' or 'Everyone has equal rights' etc.  Methinks there is a scam afoot but I'm not sure where it originated.

I don't ;) But I assume presidential candidates have. Afterall, they're not running for president for nothing. The only thing I'm really asking for, is more focus on the product and less focus on the advertisements. I still find it odd why there is so much focus on advertisement in American politics.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,08:20   

Quote (Assassinator @ Sep. 07 2008,07:49)
I still find it odd why there is so much focus on advertisement in American politics.

It may be "odd", but they do it because it works...

Sadly.

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,10:20   

Quote
Fatalistic cynicism and secession of our responsibility to participate knowledgeably in both the educational system and the electoral system is what brought this country to its knees.


I'm trying to find the empirical content in this claim but it seems to me to just be empty rhetoric.  Exactly how does a country have knees?  How could 'fatalistic cynicism and secession of responsibility to participate knowledgeably' bring a country 'to its knees'?

It can't.  That is word salad.  What you mean to say, I think, some elements have used the system to get their way at the expense of other the desires of other elements.  Well, loddy frikking dah.  That's what makes it run.  Now do you see why I say its a pile of shit?

Quote
We stand eyeball to eyeball with theocracy precisely because of attitudes just like that.


it's not because of attitudes like mine, pal, it's attitudes like YOURS.  In other words, those who say 'use the system to get what you want' are the same no matter who you are or what you want.  Of course the myopic take umbrage at this and are morally offended at this accusation instead of recognizing that it is a flaw with this system, you know the one that we are supposed to be participating in to keep Amurrika off her knees?

Quote
Now we each have a choice. We can either take up the mantle of that responsibility once again and expend great effort to drag this country and the world back toward the ideals of the Enlightenment, or we can capitulate to the rip tide of religious fundamentalism and drown in an ocean of ignorance.


More histrionics.  I think the root question here is "How should we live" and I am pretty fucking sure that the answer is not in a global village, Enlightened or Not.  Your fundamental axioms here will greatly affect that realm of possible conclusions, but I am fairly sure that I can demonstrate that participation in the system involves some humongous internal contradictions that are unresolvable (and indeed as the hegel/marx thesis-antithesis-synthesis notion suggests, keep it working at all).

Quote
It's true that voting for the current Democratic candidate is not swimming directly to shore, 'Ras. But like a swimmer caught in a rip current, it's just not possible to reach the shore that way. Just like that swimmer, we need to escape the rip current by swimming almost parallel to shore first, until we are in less dangerous waters. It's only then that we can turn fully toward safety.


can't do that much with your analogy.  to clarify, what is the current and what makes it work?  how did we get in the water anyway?

my interests lie in an orthogonal plane to the false left-right dichotomy we see here.  when you disagree with both parties, at a fundamental level, there is no place for you in the discussion.  but heat death and the tragedy of the commons will eventually take care of this stubborn obstacle.

Quote
Your choice, to not participate, is tantamount to surrender to the rip current.

I choose to swim.


swim swim swim swim swim.  I'll be somewhere out there fishing, maybe i'll pick you up if you swim to my boat.  bring beer.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,10:53   

Ok real small words, 'Ras.

Religious nuts spreading ignorance in the country is bad, m'kay?

When people don't understand what this country was founded on, principles of liberty and reason, they give up that liberty to tyrants.

Are you with me so far?

Now the donkey dudes don't have it all right.

But the efalant boys are making it badder.

We need to get rid of the efalant boys, m'kay? They are the bad men who want to tell you that you can't think stuff.

Let me know when you want to help, instead of pouting in the corner because you don't like the donkey dudes.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,12:47   

Quote
Fatalistic cynicism and secession of our responsibility to participate knowledgeably in both the educational system and the electoral system is what brought this country to its knees.


Here in smugly superior Yurrp, we like to sneer at the Murkin system of popularity polls, but I sometimes wonder how things would work out for us if we had to organise continental-scale elections for a position that carried real power. It sure wouldn't be pretty.

It's worth remembering that the US system was designed so as to have the president elected by the Great and Good of the various states. The noisesome mob were to have their say in the bear-pit of the House of Reps, not in the olympian halls of the Senate, and certainly not in the matter of the President's election. To the minds of your revered founders, that gave sufficient balance between the popular and the propertied. Rational debate was, in their minds, assured among an elite whose position was not dependent on the popular will.

The emergence of coast-to-coast television companies as the main media of political persuasion has, unsurprisingly, reduced most political debate on TV to the lowest common denominator. Given the diversity of regions and interests, how could it be otherwise?

So to my mind, you have a system designed for a set of circumstances that haven't existed since the introduction of the steam train and the popular press. The American cult of ancestor worship ( "our Founding Fathers"! C'mon, get a grip, they weren't superhuman) makes it heretical to even suggest changing the rules. The need for intravenous television makes every elected official a whore for the purposes of fundraising.

The current incarnation of teh Intertoobs demands a bit more interaction than the almost perfectly passive consumption of TV. It will be interesting to see if the Net takes over from TV as the main medium of mass communication. If it does, and it continues to demand something more than drooling on a couch for your nightly news, you could see a revival of popular participation in political debate.

I wouldn't bet on it, but then I'm a sneering Yurrpean cynic.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,13:28   

Quote
So to my mind, you have a system designed for a set of circumstances that haven't existed since the introduction of the steam train and the popular press.


you know amadan, you sound like you hate freedom.

how's that lou?  am i getting it yet?

show me how voting helps and i'll consider your point.  

voting = praying.

period.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,14:13   

What the Hell is going through your head, Erasmus? Criticising a system = hating freedom? That's on a par with the sort of comments we got from Fox at the time of the UN Security Council debates on the Iraq resolutions.

My point, which you clearly missed, is that the US constitution is the product of 18th century men who had assumptions and objectives that reflected their times and backgrounds. Did you think I agreed with their view that a propertied elite should have a permanent advantage in political life? Perhaps I should avoid complimacated litturary stuff like irony.

If you take the view that voting just encourages the bastards, you are stuck with the problem of how you are going to assure yourself the freedom that you clearly value. Opting out is fine until you run up against the system. When that happens - say, if a cop doesn't like the colour of your skin or the town council votes to remove the Koran from the library - what are you going to do?

Perhaps your point is that there is nothing that you can do, and that the system will inevitably crush individual freedom. Personally, I don't take that view. If the system of government itself is a subject of debate and potential change, the individual has a far stronger chance of fighting back.

In the USA, that doesn't seem to be an option. The 1789 constitutional framework is sacrosanct and its drafters are presented as uniquely endowed with wisdom and foresight. Bollocks. Contributing to this problem is the biased, homogenised and sound-bite level of most political discourse on US national TV networks.

Of course, you can assert and protect your freedom in the USA, but you could do it a heck of a lot more effectively if you redesigned your constitution.

Does that make it clearer?

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,14:35   

As a contrarian, I note that I am not subject to arrest or confiscation of my property for selling bananas by the pound.

And my country, warts and all, does not publicly humiliate Germans and Italians by noting, as a matter of law, that their condoms are, for some unspecified reason, undersized.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,14:40   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 07 2008,13:28)
Quote
So to my mind, you have a system designed for a set of circumstances that haven't existed since the introduction of the steam train and the popular press.


you know amadan, you sound like you hate freedom.

how's that lou?  am i getting it yet?

show me how voting helps and i'll consider your point.  

voting = praying.

period.

It's true that the individual vote in a country the size of the US or even Holland does not really count. You only stand strong as a group, you're (mostly) worthless as an individual. And that only gets worse when the size of a society gets bigger. Voting only has an impact when you do it as a group.
But I wonder what you would want then? What would work for a society of USA-ish size. Or do you think we shouldn't live in USA sized groups anymore?

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,14:43   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 07 2008,12:13)
What the Hell is going through your head, Erasmus? Criticising a system = hating freedom? That's on a par with the sort of comments we got from Fox at the time of the UN Security Council debates on the Iraq resolutions.

I *think* he was being facetious with that one line.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,14:45   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 07 2008,12:35)
And my country, warts and all, does not publicly humiliate Germans and Italians by noting, as a matter of law, that their condoms are, for some unspecified reason, undersized.

The ones Louis buys are smaller still.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,14:57   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 07 2008,14:13)
My point, which you clearly missed, is that the US constitution is the product of 18th century men who had assumptions and objectives that reflected their times and backgrounds. Did you think I agreed with their view that a propertied elite should have a permanent advantage in political life?

 
Quote

In the USA, that doesn't seem to be an option. The 1789 constitutional framework is sacrosanct and its drafters are presented as uniquely endowed with wisdom and foresight. Bollocks. Contributing to this problem is the biased, homogenised and sound-bite level of most political discourse on US national TV networks.


Both of these comments are gross overgeneralizations that come from, IMO, an incomplete understanding of American history, the rather unique nature of the American Founders, and the singular nature of what they were able to achieve.  That isn't intended as a personal criticism.  I suspect that your exposure to the American political history probably is (at least) on par to what is taught in American high schools. But, I don't consider that an adequate level of study for such a deep history with such complex personalities.  Such a study would include, at a bare minimum, study of "The Federalist" and wouldn't be hurt by biographies of James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and Thomas Jefferson.  That the Founders crafted such a constitution, under assault from the git-go (and very nearly stillborn) by the demagogues of the day speaks to it's unique nature.
 
Quote

Of course, you can assert and protect your freedom in the USA, but you could do it a heck of a lot more effectively if you redesigned your constitution.

Does that make it clearer?

No, for two reasons. First, the Constitution was constructed with dual goals: to establish the relationship of the government to the governed (with particular attention to the ennumeration, and preservation, of individual rights), as well as the construction of the government that was structured to provide interlocking balances of power intended to forestall excesses of any one particular branch (in particular, the House of Representatives).  As an American, I see plenty of problems in execution of our political system, but that is not due to any defect I see in it's particular construction.

Second, our constitutional system already provides means by which it can be amended.  It is an onerous process, to be sure, but that is deliberate.  As the checks and balances of our government's structure provide a buffer against excesses driven by popular passions, so does the amendment process.  The beauty of the Constitution is it's narrow focus to the construction, and limitations, of government, coupled with it's relative permanence. It isn't intended to specify the detailed nature of political life, but rather provide a framework within which to operate.

So, I see no need to redesign The Constitution, only to ensure it's faithful execution (which has been all to poor of late).

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,15:07   

Quote

Of course, you can assert and protect your freedom in the USA, but you could do it a heck of a lot more effectively if you redesigned your constitution.


I'm very opposed to a redesigning of the Constitution (except for abolishing the Electoral College). This isn't 1789. Extremist loonies and special interests would hijack the whole process. People as smart and secular as Adams and Jefferson wouldn't be allowed anywhere near the committees. Ironically, Jefferson would never be elected president now, since he'd be called 'too liberal', 'elitist' and 'not Christian'. Fox would do dozens of shows about his disdain for flag pins and how people wouldn't want to have a beer with him.

Plus he probably smells kind of bad by now.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ra-Úl



Posts: 93
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,15:32   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 07 2008,15:07)
   
Quote

Of course, you can assert and protect your freedom in the USA, but you could do it a heck of a lot more effectively if you redesigned your constitution.


I'm very opposed to a redesigning of the Constitution (except for abolishing the Electoral College). This isn't 1789. Extremist loonies and special interests would hijack the whole process. People as smart and secular as Adams and Jefferson wouldn't be allowed anywhere near the committees. Ironically, Jefferson would never be elected president now, since he'd be called 'too liberal', 'elitist' and 'not Christian'. Fox would do dozens of shows about his disdain for flag pins and how people wouldn't want to have a beer with him.

Plus he probably smells kind of bad by now.

Sometime in the '60s or 70's, a political announcement aired in the US, in which former Supreme Court Justice, later UN Ambassador, Arthur Goldberg, and Phyllis Schalfly (it's hard not to spell it Shoo-fly as some of my parent's friends at the time did) campaigned against a Constitutional convention, citing as an argument that a Convention would have carte blanche to do anything, even doing away with the Bill of Rights, Habeas Corpus and the reserve clause. I reasoned then as I do now that if a Convention scared both Goldberg (an American liberal, for those of you in Europe and elsewhere) and Schlafly (I shudder as I type that name), then it is a Bad Thing.

Edited 'cause I'm a furriner, can't spell, and my typing, especially in the dark, is atrocious.
Re-edited to add an 'f' somewhere.
R-e'd to ditto a 'd'. Damn.

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Beauty is that which makes us desperate. - P Valery

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,15:47   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 07 2008,15:13)
What the Hell is going through your head, Erasmus?

In fairness to 'Ras, he wasn't really advancing a claim, he was building a strawman by deliberate mischaracterization of my words.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,17:51   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 07 2008,14:35)

And my country, warts and all, does not publicly humiliate Germans and Italians by noting, as a matter of law, that their condoms are, for some unspecified reason, undersized.

Hmm. Perhaps they export the undersized ones to the UK for a reason.

</800-year grudge>

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,17:53   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 07 2008,14:43)
Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 07 2008,12:13)
What the Hell is going through your head, Erasmus? Criticising a system = hating freedom? That's on a par with the sort of comments we got from Fox at the time of the UN Security Council debates on the Iraq resolutions.

I *think* he was being facetious with that one line.

Oops.

Scorn withdrorn.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,18:48   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 07 2008,14:57)
Second, our constitutional system already provides means by which it can be amended.  It is an onerous process, to be sure, but that is deliberate.  As the checks and balances of our government's structure provide a buffer against excesses driven by popular passions, so does the amendment process.  The beauty of the Constitution is it's narrow focus to the construction, and limitations, of government, coupled with it's relative permanence. It isn't intended to specify the detailed nature of political life, but rather provide a framework within which to operate.

The amendment process is onerous, yes, but a reasonably complete civics course also tells students of the other way to change the US constitution: constitutional convention.

We did a simulated constitutional convention in high school. If you hear that our leaders decide to hold one, it wouldn't be a bad thing to get your passport in order. It might come in handy.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,18:52   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 07 2008,14:57)
That the Founders crafted such a constitution, under assault from the git-go (and very nearly stillborn) by the demagogues of the day speaks to it's unique nature.


Being unique doesn't make it perfect. Is it uniquely effective in the way it protects, say, the rights it proclaims? I'd say that it has, by and large, done a decent job, especially in establishing the power of judicial review. The USA and the the world are all the better for it. But consider also how Shrub has arrogated the right to ignore laws he doesn't like. (That such a power-grab is probably unconstitutional is not the point: the point is that he can get away with it because Realpolitik prevents anyone doing anything about it) Could he do that if the rights of the Commander-in-Chief were expressly limited in time or scope? Room for improvement there, I'd say.

   
Quote
As an American, I see plenty of problems in execution of our political system, but that is not due to any defect I see in it's particular construction.


If the system permits that type of execution, you have to ask if its construction is still appropriate. It's undeniable that it was designed (where have I seen that phrase before?) for social and technological conditions very different from today's. Perhaps Americans consider the abuses and corruption within it an acceptable cost of the freedom the system permits. Or perhaps they reason that the problems can be fixed without change to the constitution. But if I was an American, I'd take quite a bit of convincing.

   
Quote
The beauty of the Constitution is it's narrow focus to the construction, and limitations, of government, coupled with it's relative permanence. It isn't intended to specify the detailed nature of political life, but rather provide a framework within which to operate.

So, I see no need to redesign The Constitution, only to ensure it's faithful execution (which has been all to poor of late).


I agree, constitutions shouldn't be tinkered with on a whim. My point however is that many Americans seem to subscribe to the notion of American Exceptionalism, that their Constitution is the definitive and unimpeachable wellspring of democracy. But remember that Eisenhower's first draft of his farewell speech referred to the concentration of power in "a military-industrial-congressional complex". Allegedly for fear of instigating a political crisis, he removed the reference to Congress, and toned down his remarks to the 'potential' for such a concentration, not to its actuality. But that it exists is a fact.That it does so within your constitutional system suggests that the ability to concentrate that much power in that way is a defect in the system that those who drafted the constitution did not and could not have forseen. But any political commentator, let alone politician, who dared to say so would at best be written off as a flake, or be denounced for treason for daring to suggest that the Founding Fathers (Forgive me, I have to laugh whenever I see that term) might have got even part of it wrong.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,19:09   

Quote (ck1 @ Sep. 06 2008,10:54)
There is an important difference in these two predictions.  On the one hand, the outcome depends on the decision of a single highly-educated jurist, on the other, on the choices made by ordinary voting Americans:

"And in all of this we should not leave out the role of the much heralded ordinary American. One reason the Republicans find such fertile ground for their shamelessness is that this is fundamentally a right-wing country. My liberal friends find it difficult to accept this, but to me it seems obviously true. Why do you suppose that Republicans trumpet their pro-life credentials, but Democrats try to change the subject when it comes to abortion? Why do Republicans run around bashing homosexuals, while Democrats quake in terror at the thought of having to say what they really think? Why do you suppose upwards of eighty percent of the country want to have some sort of creationism taught in science classes?

The answer is simple. It is that in each case the Republicans are defending the popular position."

http://scienceblogs.com/evoluti....ion.php

(sorry - don't remember how to add quote boxes here)

. . . but aren't the Republicans - the radical branch of them, anyway - the ones who rail against relative morality?  "If it's popular, therefore it's right" seems to be an idea they accuse liberals/atheists/bogeyman-du-jour of holding.  Maybe we need to make public a few popular ideas held by the American public:

50% of Americans aren't aware that the earth orbits the sun and takes one year to do so.  Teach the controversy!

30% of Americans believe that alien spacecraft visit the earth on a regular basis. Teach the controversy!

44% of Americans believe that astrology is "very" or "somewhat" scientific? Teach the controversy! (Oops, Michael Behe already tried that one.)

Half of our citizens believe that magnet therapy is "sort of" or "very scientific." Teach the controversy, and make sure to show that ridiculous opening warehouse sequence from the latest Indiana Jones movie!

73% of Americans believe in at least one of the following: Extrasensory perception (ESP), haunted houses, ghosts, mental telepathy, clairvoyance, astrology, witches, reincarnation, or channeling. Should our next administration endorse teaching these ideas as well?

Fifty years ago, a substantial portion of Americans believed that blacks were intellectually inferior to whites. So it was okay to teach that in public schools, right?

Just because an idea is popular does not mean it is correct. Let's make sure we keep the focus on teaching REAL science in our classrooms.*

I understand your point about the predictions, ck1, that one involved an individual, and the other a group of people.  And no, I'm far from complacent about the upcoming elections whether at the local or national level.  On the other hand, I'm not going to waste my time combing through UD posts to find "Dave's" other predictions and outcomes.

*blatantly cribbed

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,20:43   

A couple of minor points to bring up:

1)  This election will hinge on $4.00/gallon gasoline.  The people know which party is responsible for that and will vote accordingly.

2)  Shrub, et. al., have, for the last 8 years, been driving the (majority) moderates out of the Republican party.  They're NOT voting for Bush II.  Hence the idiotic "maverick" label of the right-wing press, a feeble attempt to bring them back.

3)  This election was decided over 3 years ago.  Any non-Republican in a landslide.

My 45c.  :)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,21:26   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 07 2008,17:53)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 07 2008,14:43)
 
Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 07 2008,12:13)
What the Hell is going through your head, Erasmus? Criticising a system = hating freedom? That's on a par with the sort of comments we got from Fox at the time of the UN Security Council debates on the Iraq resolutions.

I *think* he was being facetious with that one line.

Oops.

Scorn withdrorn.

Sorry Amadan I was poking Lou's "knee jerk love it or leave it syndrome" there at your expense.  I thought after 9-11 the whole world knew about "you don't love freedom" sorta stuff and you would get it.

and he has absolutely failed to understand my point.  sigh.

anyway there is much good stuff in the rest of what amadan says.

 
Quote
If you take the view that voting just encourages the bastards, you are stuck with the problem of how you are going to assure yourself the freedom that you clearly value. Opting out is fine until you run up against the system. When that happens - say, if a cop doesn't like the colour of your skin or the town council votes to remove the Koran from the library - what are you going to do?


This is true.  How does on assure oneself of freedom when voting clearly encourages the bastards?  If we question those assumptions you are saying are worth questioning, then perhaps we may understand the timeless truth held by most religious-philosophical systems:  freedom is a mental condition, a state of mind.

Easy answer, right?  Yet it is true in many respects.  The central issue becomes the definition of "freedom".

 
Quote
Perhaps your point is that there is nothing that you can do, and that the system will inevitably crush individual freedom. Personally, I don't take that view. If the system of government itself is a subject of debate and potential change, the individual has a far stronger chance of fighting back.


Of course this is true.  Any governmental system gleans its power by limiting the freedom of individuals.  Individuals have varying amounts of resources available to them, which results in varying treatment of those same individuals by any system.  I suggest, as assassinator has suggested, that the fundamental issue of interest is "What scale of government best maximizes the freedom of individuals?"  The answer to this question has complex interactions with the relations of those individuals to the ecology of their means of sustenance.  The form of government taken by both yurrpeens and amurrikkkans, indeed all of the 'civilized' world, is one that must grow or die, just like a cancer.  

A vote for anyone in a US election is a vote for continuing the system of natural resource exploitation that has dammed nearly every mile of the tennessee river, resulted in the obliteration over 700 miles of streams in Appalachia by mountaintop removal, extinction of north american indigenous cultures, etc etc etc etc.  A vote for anyone gives your sanction to this history, your consent.  The blood is on your hands.

Assassinator says

 
Quote
But I wonder what you would want then? What would work for a society of USA-ish size. Or do you think we shouldn't live in USA sized groups anymore?


We should not.  I believe this to be an empirical truth, even given the ethical claim embedded in the proposition.  To unpack a bit, if we value connection with our landscape, if we value growing or procuring our own food, if we value sustainable human communities, then this claim is true.  I suggest that most folks hold these values, but for other reasons they are led to compromise them in the hopes (as Lou has suggested above) that participation may allay the inevitable demise of the system for just a little bit longer.

anarchy?  not what i am advocating.  however i don't think this ship can run forever, and in the meantime it's important to remember the Old Ways.  the division of labor and mechanization of daily human tasks have caused a Great Forgetting, politics now is a dance of amnesiacs who are merely chanting magic words they do not understand in hopes of stirring primeval passions that are beyond the grasp of reason.

ETA and voting just encourages the bastards.  You might as well pray.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,21:40   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 07 2008,18:52)
     
Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 07 2008,14:57)
As an American, I see plenty of problems in execution of our political system, but that is not due to any defect I see in it's particular construction.


If the system permits that type of execution, you have to ask if its construction is still appropriate. It's undeniable that it was designed (where have I seen that phrase before?) for social and technological conditions very different from today's. Perhaps Americans consider the abuses and corruption within it an acceptable cost of the freedom the system permits. Or perhaps they reason that the problems can be fixed without change to the constitution. But if I was an American, I'd take quite a bit of convincing.

I think there are two faulty premises in what you are saying here.  First, I would suggest that you are engaging in a reverse Exceptionalism inasmuch as you seem to the think that abuses and corruption are particularly egregious in the American system.  Second, you are seem to be assuming that there is no means of addressing such problems except by changed constitutional construction.  I think both premises are wrong.

I think the first premise is prima facie false and requires little comment except to say that corruption and abuses of power are present in any system and I don't think the American system is any worse, and probably much better*, than most other systems. That said, I do understand power is a force multiplier and a minor abuse of power here may have a more significant impact that a major abuse elsewhere.  But I don't see that as a fault in construction, but as a problem in execution.

The second premise is false in that there are means of dealing with abuses of power and corruption. The American Constitution provides means for dealing with violations of a constitutional nature. Indeed, I would note that several times, when suits related to the constitutionality of the "enemy combatant" and military tribunal policy have rose above the district court level, the Bush administration has backed down in what I would describe as a strategic retreat to avoid constitutional reviews that are unlikely to break there way (I am thinking particularly of the Hamdan and Padilla cases). The unitary executive concept and the signing statements, along with the warrantless wiretapping, are still concerns and it should be interesting to see how that plays out.  

The second premise is also flawed in that I question that is necessary that a constitution deal with anything more than defining the role and structure of government and the nature of it's relationship to the governed.  Abuses and corruption that falls outside the (current) US constitution are not unaddressable. Rather, they are addressed through existing, and voluminous, criminal and civil codes.
   
Quote

I agree, constitutions shouldn't be tinkered with on a whim. My point however is that many Americans seem to subscribe to the notion of American Exceptionalism, that their Constitution is the definitive and unimpeachable wellspring of democracy. But remember that Eisenhower's first draft of his farewell speech referred to the concentration of power in "a military-industrial-congressional complex". Allegedly for fear of instigating a political crisis, he removed the reference to Congress, and toned down his remarks to the 'potential' for such a concentration, not to its actuality. But that it exists is a fact.That it does so within your constitutional system suggests that the ability to concentrate that much power in that way is a defect in the system that those who drafted the constitution did not and could not have forseen.

Spare me.  In this regard, America is completely unexceptional.  Business and governmental interests are inexorably intertwined in all systems everywhere.  I will try not to engage in armchair psychology, but I would ask you to consider whether your unease with the American military-industrial complex** is less due to our constitutional construction and more that our (currently) pre-eminent position militarily in the world tends to exaggerate the impact of abuses that would be merely annoying elsewhere.
   
Quote
But any political commentator, let alone politician, who dared to say so would at best be written off as a flake, or be denounced for treason for daring to suggest that the Founding Fathers (Forgive me, I have to laugh whenever I see that term) might have got even part of it wrong.

I make no bones about it, I think the American Constitution is an exceptional document, witnessed by the fact that other nations have modeled their constitution after ours, sometimes even lifting language wholesale. I think you are put-off by the extent of American power (a point I will not begrudge you) and are confusing the execution of a fundamentally flawed system with the execution of a fundamentally good system by flawed actors. But rather than dealing with this in the abstract, I think it would be easier (for me, at least) if you would elucidate what you would change about the American Constitution.

* I come to this perspective as a businessman, employed by a European company, who deals frequently with associates all across the world, and passing familiarity with anti-corruption laws. Business laws and practices around the world (including Europe) are far more laissez faire than those here in the States.

** Strangely enough, the last 8 years, and the verdict from the Hamdan tribunal last month, have lead me to the conclusion that we have far less to fear from our military than the civilians elected and appointed to direct them.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,03:55   

Quote
...you seem to the think that abuses and corruption are particularly egregious in the American system.


I don't say that the USA is rotten to the core. I'm referring to the multiplier effect you identify. Otherwise legitimate aspects of government like lobbying and fund-raising are, to use a nice phrase from the old Catechism, Occasions of Sin. The potential risk of (and rewards from, bless them!) their abuse increase (disproportionately, it seems to me) as accountability diminishes and power increases. And that is where I see a problem in the US system. Your Federal govt has accumulated quite astonishing powers at the expense of states that are allegedly sovereign. I understand and sympathise with many of the historical reasons for that, but it sure ain't what anyone was thinking of in 1789.

What would your constitution look like if those august gentlemen had been asked to draft it on the assumptions that
  • secession should be impossible
  • corporations should have the economic and political power that they currently have
  • the Federal military establishment should be funded to the extent it is, (regardless of their distaste for standing armies)
  • universal suffrage and corporate-controlled TV should be allowed


I'd hazard a guess that you would see much more power reserved to the states and more stringent control of Federal offices. That, or they'd send some nice flowers to London and ask if they could give it one more try. No more jokes about your mother's weight. Honest.

I've banged on about this too long, so I'll shut up soon. It's just that, as one of your fond relatives abroad, I find it disconcerting that the de facto emperor of the world should be selected by means of a process that looks like the bastard love-child of a beauty pageant and an arm-wrestling tournament.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,05:45   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 07 2008,22:26)
Sorry Amadan I was poking Lou's "knee jerk love it or leave it syndrome" there at your expense.  I thought after 9-11 the whole world knew about "you don't love freedom" sorta stuff and you would get it.

I never said any such thing, and your characterization is dishonest.

What I said was your attitude is juvenile and irresponsible.

...as is your continuing to be deliberately obtuse in order to make your point seem valid.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,06:42   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 08 2008,03:55)
Otherwise legitimate aspects of government like lobbying and fund-raising are, to use a nice phrase from the old Catechism, Occasions of Sin. The potential risk of (and rewards from, bless them!) their abuse increase (disproportionately, it seems to me) as accountability diminishes and power increases. And that is where I see a problem in the US system.

Well, the problem is that lobbying is one particular means by which groups of citizens influence government policy and practice and, therefore, falls under the title "petitioning the government for the redress of grievances."  That there is abuse in the system is not denied, but I think that our system allowing for access to political leaders and policy makers is, overall, one of it's strengths.  I always find it curious when people (not necessarily you, as you have yet to made sufficient distinction in your objection to lobbying) decry access to governmental leaders by corporations, but have no problem with labor unions and other advocacy groups have such access.  In the end, I suppose, it all depends on who's ox is being gored.      
Quote
Your Federal govt has accumulated quite astonishing powers at the expense of states that are allegedly sovereign. I understand and sympathise with many of the historical reasons for that, but it sure ain't what anyone was thinking of in 1789.

What would your constitution look like if those august gentlemen had been asked to draft it on the assumptions that
  • secession should be impossible
  • corporations should have the economic and political power that they currently have
  • the Federal military establishment should be funded to the extent it is, (regardless of their distaste for standing armies)
  • universal suffrage and corporate-controlled TV should be allowed

You list of assumptions betrays a particular point of view and, with the sole exception of universal suffrage, I can make the argument that the assumptions are unwarranted and that, to some extent, the underlying issues were known, in one form or another, to the Founders and were part of their deliberations.  Alexander Hamilton, for one, understood the coming industrialization at some level and it influenced his thinking greatly, particularly on the matter of a need for a central bank.
     
Quote

I'd hazard a guess that you would see much more power reserved to the states and more stringent control of Federal offices.

As answers go, that is non-responsive and, I think, historically inaccurate. There were great powers invested in the states (indeed , all powers not specifically ennumerated to the federal government). Many of the problems in our system are not, IMO, because insufficient powers were given to the states, but rather there was scope creep relative to the powers accumulated by the federal government in the subsequent years. But, in the absence of knowing what specific powers you think should have been given to the states, I can't really respond.
     
Quote

It's just that, as one of your fond relatives abroad, I find it disconcerting that the de facto emperor of the world should be selected by means of a process that looks like the bastard love-child of a beauty pageant and an arm-wrestling tournament.

Fair enough, but I don't see that as a constitutional flaw so much as the result of an insular public with an unfortunately broad anti-intellectual streak down their backs.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,08:07   

Quote
What I said was your attitude is juvenile and irresponsible.


yeah ok red dress.  please tell me sir what the alternative is.  

if it is all hogwarsh, as i say it is (as opposed to your position paraphrased here as "it's all hogwarsh, but you have to get in there with the hogs"), then why bother?

because you are reduced to slippery slope arguments predicated upon personal idiosyncratic likes and dislikes.  Just like they intended voting to work.

Those who see such drastic differences between sides are looking through a pinhole.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,14:42   

Well if you're not willing to do the smallest amount of homework about the red dress, then I shouldn't be surprised you wouldn't be bothered to plug "Republican Party Platform" and "Democratic Party Platform" into Google for purposes of comparison, let alone pay attention to who votes for which piece of legislation.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,14:48   

whooooosh

Lou of course i am pulling your chain re the red dress.  i read it and greatly enjoyed it many moons ago.

but you still continue to miss the point.  left/right, republican/democrat, liberal/conservative.  as far as i can see, all wrong.

i note that you do not contest my characterization of your position:  It's all hogwarsh, but you have to get in there with the hogs to complain.

voting for the lesser of two evils = voting for evil.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,14:51   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 08 2008,15:48)
whooooosh

Lou of course i am pulling your chain re the red dress.  i read it and greatly enjoyed it many moons ago.

but you still continue to miss the point.  left/right, republican/democrat, liberal/conservative.  as far as i can see, all wrong.

i note that you do not contest my characterization of your position:  It's all hogwarsh, but you have to get in there with the hogs to complain.

voting for the lesser of two evils = voting for evil.

No 'ras, I didn't miss your point, but you're right: I didn't contest it.

That had less to do with the validity of your assertions than my desire to lower the volume of this discussion.

Edited to hide a horrid grammar error.

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 08 2008,21:06

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
rhmc



Posts: 340
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,18:39   

i've enjoyed the "discussion".  please continue.  
screw the volume.
turn it UP.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,18:53   

Lou's was the red dress of grievances. That's constitutional depth.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,19:16   

Quote (rhmc @ Sep. 08 2008,18:39)
i've enjoyed the "discussion".  please continue.  
screw the volume.
turn it UP.



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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,19:18   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 08 2008,16:53)
Lou's was the red dress of grievances. That's constitutional depth.

But what's this I've heard about some stain on the dress?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,08:16   

fine have it your way.

it's ok to play kick the believing christians but we can't play kick the believing voters.  i smell inconsistency here, perhaps it is that BR^OWN stain on your red dress.

belief in progress through politics = belief in orthogenesis

belief in justice through politics = belief in justice from bearded sky thunderer

I'm not a nihilist, you're just full of shit.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,09:03   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,09:16)

I'm not a nihilist, you're just full of shit.

That isn' really necessary, Ras.

I think positions are neither being adequately explained nor understood, a sin I was guilty of some months back, in a back and forth I had with Wes.

I think Clausewitz is more important than anyone else mentioned so far.  All life is a power struggle.  The struggle can be violent or rhetorical.  Politics is where the rhetorical struggle takes place.  Voting is how we settle the rhetorical struggle.  It is indeed a terrible evil setup (as the old saw goes, it is still better than the alternatives) but not playing is not an option.  Not playing = dying.

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,09:30   

since dying happens anyway, paul, i don't see how that is an alternative.  

I'd suggest instead that politics is indeed a violent struggle, as evidenced by the consequences of political decisions.  all you decide with a vote is who should die.  pardon me if i don't play along, it's like a schoolyard game of selling out strangers to the bully.

'not necessary', perhaps..., but i disagree.  if we viewed the political arena with the same amount of skepticism we rightfully view the religious arena then this conversation would be moot.  I can't see the difference between humanists and other fundies.

regarding your insight that positions are not being explained, let me reiterate my view.  If the question is "How Ought We Live", I am saying that this ain't it.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,13:47   

Disclaimer: Within my group of friends, one of us is a non-voter; with the reason that both parties are to blame.  On the rare occasions when the group talks politics, he trots out the old "neither is good so I don't vote but I'll criticize without providing a better option".  I've been thinking about what to say or how to...so if this seems directed at Erasmus, it's not, per se.  Some of the ideas apply, but it is more directed towards my group and, to be honest, is raw and unrefined.  Nonetheless, I think has some relevance to this discussion.


Both parties suck.  I won't argue that.  They both have corrupt, selfish members that care only for themselves and their family, and play up their supposed credentials to get elected.  They know what people want to hear and how to play the victim/crusader/outraged everyman as needed.  Both parties also have well-meaning, honest people that want to do well for the country and the people they represent.  They want to work with others and base their decisions on evidence and what will be best for the population, not what will be best for their next campaign.  The frustrating thing is that those people often seem to be powerless and/or outnumbered, if they can even get elected at all.  Without a doubt, our system polarizes just about any issue and throws balance of power to the winds.  It either does not work as intended or is not capable of handling the situation in the US as it exists today.

So what now?  Two main options that lead to a cascade of others: participate in the current but flawed system or abstain.  If you abstain you can a) offer no suggestions and simply complain that all politicians are a waste or b) you can push for change.  Change such as more viable parties, removal or empowerment of the electoral college, even a new type of government or any number of other ideas about whatever it is that you think is wrong.  Let's say that we despise the system, refuse to participate in it, and want it changed.  Short of armed revolution, how else will you change the system?  Despite the poor phrasing, this is not rhetorical but an honest question.  The only thing I can think of is a 'change the culture' mentality, which I do support.  But a change in the culture does not mean that the system is changed by default.  To me, once the culture is changed you are still left with changing the system from within (by participating) or removing the offending system.

Now what about participating?  Is voting in the current system something of a tacit approval of the broken politics?  Unfortunately yes, but no less than not voting is tacit approval of the status quo.  Once you participate in the system, does that mean that you can't push for change?  Should we just give up trying and submit to a broken system?  Unequivocally, no.  You can work with a broken system by putting into power people that are willing to make changes to fix it.  A legitimate concern is that once any party is in power, nothing more would be done; no party would give up power willingly.  However such a fatalistic attitude assumes that you could not being to lay the groundwork that would make changing the system possible.  Without a doubt, it would be resisted every step of the way but such changes would need to be incremental, and some politicians would be more accommodating than others.  It would not be quick and it would frustrating and full of set-backs, but at least it would be movement towards a better system.  Sometimes, you do have to work within the system to get the system to improve.  I know it is trite and whatnot, but that alone doesn't make it untrue.  In my opinion, if you avoid the system because of disgust, what is important to you may be sacrificed because the system moves on, with or without you.  And the thing is, it drags you along whether you like it or not.

The teaching of evolution is a perfect example.  While no president will be able to settle the issue once and for all, their decisions affect the Department of Education and their veto power can decide laws and funding.  Obama has stated his support for evolution pretty clearly (although it would be nice to see if he could match comments by Clinton*).  Biden has called Intelligent Design 'malarkey', although I can't find specific support of evolution.  McCain seems to have hedged his bet, saying he believes in evolution and that creationism should not be taught in classrooms, but that '...Americans should be exposed to every point of view' and specifically delivered the 2007 keynote address for the Discovery Institute.  Palin also seems to skirt the line as much as she can and supports teaching both and the "don't be afraid of debate" type-scam.

So, here's the play: I think we can all agree, for better or worse, that one of the two major parties will win this election.  It's not a matter of should they, are they the best, etc. but that there is no practical chance that anyone other than a Republican or a Democrat will win this election.  So the option comes down to the pro-evolution/anti-intelligent design ticket and the teach the controversy/teach both ticket.  By not voting, you are letting someone else make the decision on this topic which may have significant impact on the status of teaching evolution.  Your vote is a chance to at least register your opinion, discussions of the electoral college not withstanding.

Voting doesn't mean you have to commit heart and soul to that least offensive party or that you can't ever move beyond them.  But if you do want to have meaningful change, IMO, start by getting the most helpful of two options in and slowly work to get other options in.  It won't be fast and it won't be easy, but small chance is better than no chance.




* http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/us/politics/05clinton.html  Clinton's words were nice, but she is a politician and words mean little without action.  This alone wouldn't be enough to believe someone, but it at least lets me see what they are willing to say and what they are afraid of saying.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,14:09   

Quote
It either does not work as intended or is not capable of handling the situation in the US as it exists today.


I think that could be said in any period of history.

It does, however, work as well or better than evolution. I'm not aware of many instances where complex systems worked exactly as planned, or were capable of adjusting for and compensating for unexpected contingencies.

People wring their hands because politics is not rational, but the fact is that life does not hand us problems with tidy, deterministic solutions.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,14:15   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 09 2008,09:30)
...let me reiterate my view.  If the question is "How Ought We Live", I am saying that this ain't it.

So your view is that the American political system is not optimal. Well, you've certainly gone out on a limb there - next you'll be suggesting that ursine mammals void their bowels in sylvan environments!

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,14:41   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 09 2008,15:09)
 
Quote
It either does not work as intended or is not capable of handling the situation in the US as it exists today.


I think that could be said in any period of history.

It does, however, work as well or better than evolution. I'm not aware of many instances where complex systems worked exactly as planned, or were capable of adjusting for and compensating for unexpected contingencies.

People wring their hands because politics is not rational, but the fact is that life does not hand us problems with tidy, deterministic solutions.

Midwifetoad, don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying that if it isn't perfect, it's crap.  I don't expect a perfect system.  My rambling comments were more directed at those that complain about the system and avoid being a part of it.  They often don't see that they enforce the very status quo that they hate by not pushing the system one way or the other.

I think the US election system has some serious flaws (balance of the electoral college vs popular vote, redistricting, two-party pigeonholing, etc) that could be fixed, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work at all.  I'm just not sure our electoral system is optimal for the situation as it is today.  Perhaps it was when it was created, but I don't think it is now.  Yeah, it works but that doesn't mean it could be better.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:31   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 09 2008,09:16)
fine have it your way.

it's ok to play kick the believing christians but we can't play kick the believing voters.  i smell inconsistency here, perhaps it is that BR^OWN stain on your red dress.

belief in progress through politics = belief in orthogenesis

belief in justice through politics = belief in justice from bearded sky thunderer

I'm not a nihilist, you're just full of shit.

So sitting in the corner and sniveling about the unfairness of it all is the answer. Gotcha.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:38   

Two things:

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,10:30)
If the question is "How Ought We Live",...

1. No, that's not the question.

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,10:30)
...I am saying that this ain't it.

2. That's not even a useful answer to the question anyway.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:44   

Quote (clamboy @ Sep. 09 2008,20:15)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,09:30)
...let me reiterate my view.  If the question is "How Ought We Live", I am saying that this ain't it.

So your view is that the American political system is not optimal. Well, you've certainly gone out on a limb there - next you'll be suggesting that ursine mammals void their bowels in sylvan environments!

I thought that was the Pope.

Damn, wrong again!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:50   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 09 2008,23:31)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,09:16)
fine have it your way.

it's ok to play kick the believing christians but we can't play kick the believing voters.  i smell inconsistency here, perhaps it is that BR^OWN stain on your red dress.

belief in progress through politics = belief in orthogenesis

belief in justice through politics = belief in justice from bearded sky thunderer

I'm not a nihilist, you're just full of shit.

So sitting in the corner and sniveling about the unfairness of it all is the answer. Gotcha.

Snivelling is ALWAYS the answer for many people.

Options:

1) Work with the system for change.

2) Smash the system.

3) Refuse to participate and disenfranchise yourself.

4) Remove yourself from the system and set your own one up.

I prefer a combination of 1, 2 and 4 as and when appropriate.

Since 'twas only mere months ago that dear 'Ras was telling me that my dislike of bigotry was equivalent to bigotry (despite reasoned disagreement being at the core of said dislike), I'm guessing that this latest "voting = praying" is yet another false equivalence in a long line of wind ups.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:55   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:50)
'Ras was telling me that my dislike of bigotry was equivalent to bigotry

Link?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,17:56   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 09 2008,23:55)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:50)
'Ras was telling me that my dislike of bigotry was equivalent to bigotry

Link?

LOL Find it yourself! I can't be bothered. My point is that (IMO) 'Ras is on the wind up*. This lark ain't serious.

I could be wrong of course.

Louis

*Does this translate into foreign?

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,18:06   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:56)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 09 2008,23:55)
 
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:50)
'Ras was telling me that my dislike of bigotry was equivalent to bigotry

Link?

LOL Find it yourself! I can't be bothered.



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,18:19   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 10 2008,00:06)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:56)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 09 2008,23:55)
   
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,15:50)
'Ras was telling me that my dislike of bigotry was equivalent to bigotry

Link?

LOL Find it yourself! I can't be bothered.


Congratulations on your first incredibly accurate LOLcat!

You can haz cheezburger.

Louis

ETA: I'm trying to remember what thread it was in, but alas to no avail. Senility at 33is a bitch.

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Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,20:22   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Sep. 09 2008,13:47)
Voting doesn't mean you have to commit heart and soul to that least offensive party or that you can't ever move beyond them.  But if you do want to have meaningful change, IMO, start by getting the most helpful of two options in and slowly work to get other options in.  It won't be fast and it won't be easy, but small chance is better than no chance.




* http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/us/politics/05clinton.html  Clinton's words were nice, but she is a politician and words mean little without action.  This alone wouldn't be enough to believe someone, but it at least lets me see what they are willing to say and what they are afraid of saying.

Spottedwind - well said, and welcome!

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. "
Winston Churchill

If we don't vote, the Lying Liers win all the time.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,00:06   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 09 2008,17:44)
Quote (clamboy @ Sep. 09 2008,20:15)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2008,09:30)
...let me reiterate my view.  If the question is "How Ought We Live", I am saying that this ain't it.

So your view is that the American political system is not optimal. Well, you've certainly gone out on a limb there - next you'll be suggesting that ursine mammals void their bowels in sylvan environments!

I thought that was the Pope.

Damn, wrong again!

Indeed! In that particular case one ought to say, "Next you'll be suggesting that the oligarchically-elected dictator of the pre-Lutheran Christian establishment maintains his faith in that specific denomination!"

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,00:54   

Voting isn't so bad.  I've come to the realization that, as a borderline anarchist, my other option is to vote with my 20 gauge.  Since I also recognize Machaevalianism (sp.) for what it is, I'll stick to voting the normal way, for now.  :)

I hope that doesn't boggle too many people's minds.

I AM tougher than I look, really.  ;)

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,05:38   

Quote (jeffox @ Sep. 10 2008,00:54)
Voting isn't so bad.  I've come to the realization that, as a borderline anarchist, my other option is to vote with my 20 gauge.  Since I also recognize Machaevalianism (sp.) for what it is, I'll stick to voting the normal way, for now.  :)

I hope that doesn't boggle too many people's minds.

I AM tougher than I look, really.  ;)

This puts me in mind of the sainted Dorothy Parker's views on deep questions like this:

Razors pain you, rivers are damp,
Acids stain you, drugs cause cramp,
Guns aren't lawful*, nooses give,
Gas smells awful, you might as well live.




* except in Alaska, where they seem to be obligatory

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,07:57   

Howdy spottedwind

Quote
he trots out the old "neither is good so I don't vote but I'll criticize without providing a better option".


So, what are 'options'?  What if the best answer is 'not an option'? Options may be contextually determined, the in principle best solution is not.  Unless there are several different solutions with the same r squared.  The option I suggest is not one on the table rigged by the heirs of powdered wigs and spice empires.  my critique is not based on a better way to run a nation the size of the united states within the confines of the system currently employed.  if that means it is 'not an option' then the point is far over your head.  who ever you are you know proverbial that you guy.  

Quote
They both have corrupt, selfish members that care only for themselves and their family, and play up their supposed credentials to get elected.  They know what people want to hear and how to play the victim/crusader/outraged everyman as needed.  Both parties also have well-meaning, honest people that want to do well for the country and the people they represent.


How do you separate these two groups?  My my it sounds like the Not A True Christian argument.  When I hear such arguments I know there is a fallacy at root.  I think I've found one of them.

Quote
It either does not work as intended or is not capable of handling the situation in the US as it exists today.


Aye aye

Quote
If you abstain you can a) offer no suggestions and simply complain that all politicians are a waste or b) you can push for change.


Or you can do both.  Offering burnt offerings to the gods suggestions to the system is a lot like pouring piss down a rat hole.  The merit of an argument is irrelevant to the degree which it is implemented, unless by merit you mean how much $ do you make and who do you have to pay off.

Quote
Let's say that we despise the system, refuse to participate in it, and want it changed.  Short of armed revolution, how else will you change the system?


change it to what?  you dont think any threat to existing power structures will go unchallenged by armed means, just because it makes more sense?  nope.  people die in conflict.  i've been trying to stress that people die as a result of your vote:  if you are going to argue that people would die if you didn't vote then I think we can use some algebra to get at the question of how valuable this vote is.

anyway i think it is common for folks to lose their personal ontology in a group identity.  the question, my friends, is not "What are we going to do" it is "How can I keep all these brain dead bastards out of my vegetable garden when the S.H.F."  I am a lot more concerned about repelling the starving zombie hordes than I am about making sure that everybody is as free as Jesus made them.  i'd rather eat squirrels than rats but right now there is not enough to go around for everybody.

Quote
Is voting in the current system something of a tacit approval of the broken politics?  Unfortunately yes, but no less than not voting is tacit approval of the status quo.


This is more creationist logic.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.  What, you don't believe in God?  Why you are still a sinner.  Again be skeptical of such arguments.

Quote
You can work with a broken system by putting into power people that are willing to make changes to fix it.


really?  name one.  substituting a soap opera personality passion play for whatever it is that the political system is supposed to represent has always been the name of the game.  If the whole thing is premised on incorrect assumptions it doesn't matter how much you monkey with the business nested within it.

Quote
However such a fatalistic attitude assumes that you could not being to lay the groundwork that would make changing the system possible.


you can start by growing your own beans and taters.  food is the key to revolution.  

Your comments regarding the teaching of anti-evolution are spot on of  course.  I would suggest that you consider that a politician will do anything that gets him elected.  the democrat leaders wish they had the drooling fundie nutcase block, if they had a shot at it you would see this behavior supposedly celebrating the teaching of real science nipped in the bud immediately.  i support this by my own truism, "Anyone who deserved the job would never want it".  

clamboy
Quote
So your view is that the American political system is not optimal. Well, you've certainly gone out on a limb there - next you'll be suggesting that ursine mammals void their bowels in sylvan environments!


it's true, i've seen them do it.  of course that is not all i have suggested either.

Quote
So sitting in the corner and sniveling about the unfairness of it all is the answer. Gotcha.


Of course I never said that, but that and voting have exactly the same effect on anything real and tangible.  Other than you know have something to talk about at lunch.  You can vote in one hand and hold the other behind a bull, see which fills up first.  Voting = Praying.

Louis, you are bigoted against bigots.  That is as simple as that.  I was just saying you should be proud of that.  I am bigoted against stupid people.  Once they aren't stupid then I find I am more or less indifferent to them.

Quote
If we don't vote, the Lying Liers win all the time.


well they do that either damn way.  if anyone wins, then this has happened.

jeff i think understands it.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,07:58   

this has all been said more betterer here.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,09:06   

'Ras, by any definition of the word bigotry, I am not bigoted. I don't claim to be perfect or free from bias, but as was said before, these false equivalences of yours don't work. None of the castigation of the ideas of bigots I am happy to sign my name to has the hallmarks of bigotry. I don't advocate segregation or discrimination against bigots for example, nor do I cry for restriction of their freedoms (speech or otherwise). In fact I demand the opposite, I would argue strongly against censoring bigots, their ideas must be allowed to be made public so they can be criticised. None of that has the hallmark of bigotry. I recommend you buy a dictionary and attempt  to understand the words you use.

The same goes for this latest wind up of yours regarding politics. It is, as you said: voting for the lesser of two evils still voting for evil, but that doesn't negate the fallacy at the heart of your claims. Only a deluded idealist expects or demands utopia, the collaborative effort that is any society demands compromise by definition. The one thing you can guarantee is that if you don't cooperate with others then you will be defeated by people who do. Simple scientific fact, easily observable in any social species.

The tragedy of the US system (and the UK system for that matter) is that the electorate is stuck with limited choice. So limited in fact that it constitutes disenfranchisement in my view. The only way to change that is to engage in some fashion (from "smash the system" to "vote with apathy"), if you don't engage you cannot change a thing, you simply open yourself to exploitation in all its glory.

You're right about another thing though: engagement doesn't have to be done blind or with some faith-like pandering to vested interests, but engagement is your only safe choice.

The rest of this happy horseshit is just the latest in a long line of false equivalences you like to make to annoy people. A bit transparent but otherwise harmless.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,09:18   

But nothing will change until people arrive at politicians' doors singing

You can get anything you want
At Alice's Restaurant



(just wait until the song comes around again and we can all join in)











(Here it comes . . . )

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,10:43   

I'd be interested to see any evidence of how things would actually be different depending on who wins. I recognize a lot of rhetoric, but in the 40 years I've been voting, I've failed to see a lot of difference in actual outcomes between presidents of different parties.

Just for example, the most enduring outcome of the Clinton presidency may be welfare reform. Not something the democrats intended.

It's also possible that the Russians will use our intervention in Kosovo as cover for nibbling its way back to control of Eastern Europe.

Politics is a game, and intentions don't equal accomplishment. Changing the rules, as in reforming or restructuring voting and representation, will be followed by adaptations, just a surely as bacteria evolve resistance to antibiotics.

The only useful test of a political system is whether -- in fact, not theory -- it produces alternations of control among the competing tribes.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,11:49   

midwife, i too am waiting for such evidence.  

louis it's not a windup and not false equivalences.  you are intolerant of bigotry.  that's all.  you have an opinion and i agree that having an opinion is not the same as acting upon it (which you seem to have made the explanatory difference).  

i said nothing about whether or not it made you a bad person etc.  i think you are a fine person, even if you are sort of gay.  some of my wifes best friends are gay for example.  

back to anti-evolution and presidential politics, any of these douchebags who want to be president would be anti-evolution if they thought that could make them win.  the same with any other platform (hence the long digression into what is wrong with nation-states and representative government in general).  As others have noted, what you do about that is the critical piece of information.  Engaging and educating the public (those you have access to) about the best most recent science is by far the tact with the biggest payoff.

why?  not because an informed public will educate that philosopher kings that rule them, but because those douchebags want their power so they will pander to the loudest most influential base.  That is not the same as being led to rational conclusions, and so much of the 'get involved and make a difference' poofery best reserved for college freshman is predicated on the assumption that decisions are made in this manner.  The cynical machiavellian view best represents political reality.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,12:30   

Saying nation states are "wrong" is a bit like saying the design of living things is wrong. Things are what they are because of descent. That includes the U.S. constitution.

There are few decent governments in the world that are not descended from the British model, with some fiddling with details. I'm not convinced the details matter as much as some people think. Any system that involves elections and representation will be gamed by factions.

But I am not personally cynical about this. I vote for the same reason I return lost wallets. It doesn't benefit me directly, and the world will not change if I quit voting or keep found money, but for whatever reason, I am a social animal and engage in social behavior that has no immediate benefit to myself.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,12:36   

Erasmus, I don't mean this to be offensive, but at times I find your post to be...mere rhetoric.  You accused Lou of word salad a while back but I have trouble seeing how some of your responses wouldn't qualify for the same.  Perhaps I'm just not used to your way of speaking and perhaps it is just over my head, but IMO the best way to get ideas across is to make sure you are understood.  So, if in my response I miss your point, it's not out of purposeful avoidance, but an inability to understand; my ignorance and/or your writing the cause.

 
Quote
So, what are 'options'?  What if the best answer is 'not an option'? Options may be contextually determined, the in principle best solution is not...my critique is not based on a better way to run a nation the size of the united states within the confines of the system currently employed.  if that means it is 'not an option' then the point is far over your head.


Notice that you ask me what the options are.  My point is not that he has to pick from a list of approved options, it was that he criticizes and offers NOTHING.  Sure, you can criticize all you like, but if you have nothing to offer, even if it is what is considered an outlandish idea, then why not just go babble on the street corner?  If he gave the suggestion to dissolve the US, that's fine.  It might not be a realistic option at this point in time but at least he would be giving a suggestion of which way to go.

 
Quote
How do you separate these two groups?  My my it sounds like the Not A True Christian argument.  When I hear such arguments I know there is a fallacy at root.  I think I've found one of them.


What two groups would that be Erasmus?  Do you mean the difference between the lying group and the honest?  Well, mainly you look at it by actions.  Do their actions reflect their words and facts or not.  I don't mean this to come across as condescending, but I feel like you are purposefully crossing signals.  People throw the No True Scotsman fallacy around way too easily.  Definition is the problem obviously, but some definitions really can't be refined.  An apple is an apple and an orange isn't.  A person who has told an intentional false statement has lied.  They are a lair.  (I feel like such a 3rd grader saying it like that).

Here's the other thing, I didn't even say that people who go against what I believe are selfish and those that agree with me are honest.  I said that there are well intentioned people that are trying to do what they think is best.  Whether what they think actually is the best is another conversation.

What I was trying to say in that paragraph was that neither group is pure good or pure evil.  As bitter and jaded to the politics as I am, I at least have enough sense of reality to realize that not every single person in politics is out only to help themselves.  I can understand where that frustration comes from but, well I guess I have a bit more faith in humanity.  Which I think would break the irony meters of my friends.

 
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If you abstain you can a) offer no suggestions and simply complain that all politicians are a waste or b) you can push for change.


Or you can do both.  Offering burnt offerings to the gods suggestions to the system is a lot like pouring piss down a rat hole.  The merit of an argument is irrelevant to the degree which it is implemented, unless by merit you mean how much $ do you make and who do you have to pay off.


How can you do both?  Honestly, not rhetorical but a serious question.  You say that you can do both but give no example.  How is it possible to just complain and push for change?  If you are pushing for change, then you are not just complaining.  If you are not pushing for change (ANY CHANGE) then you are simply complaining.  I'm seriously confused by what you mean here.

And you are mixing things ups...I said you can abstain and push for change.  What does that have to do with offering suggestions to the system?  My point was that if you choose not to participate in the system because of your disgust with it (my words, not speaking for you), these were some of the options that I saw.  I didn't say that was the only thing, but a simple list.  And they weren't suggestions TO the system but ABOUT the system.  What is it that you want to see done about the problems that bother you?  I did list changes to the current system, but if you notice I also listed a new government or other ideas.  I didn't limit options to what is possible now.


 
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Let's say that we despise the system, refuse to participate in it, and want it changed.  Short of armed revolution, how else will you change the system?


change it to what?


The question of what it changes to was not the question I asked.  I was trying to understand HOW to change a system that we wanted changed if we preclude physical violence and participating in the system.  I didn't say it was impossible either...I want to hear ideas, suggestions, anecdotes, examples, anything.  I mentioned changing the culture of the nation but that alone wouldn't change the system.

I hesitate to draw this connection, but part of the Civil Rights movement was a cultural change that pushed a change of the system.  And yes, the system was resistant and it wasn't easy but the cultural change helped to bring about a change of the system.  It didn't work in a vacuum though.  There was violence, there were people trying to change the culture, and there were people that worked in the system to try to fix it.  Now, I'm not saying we have totally conquered that hill...racial problems are still obvious.  My point is that if you removed the violence and the people participating in the system, how would the situation have changed?  Seriously, I don't meant to be dense, but I don't see how things would have changed in any appreciable time.  Sure, if you changed the culture, the mentality it would just happen…but how long would that take and what happens in the mean time?  And that assumes that everyone would have eventually agreed, and we can see even now, that isn’t the case.

 
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you dont think any threat to existing power structures will go unchallenged by armed means, just because it makes more sense?  nope.  people die in conflict.


When did I EVER say that a challenge to the existing power structure would go unchallenged?  In fact, I specifically stated that it would be resisted every step of the way.

 
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i've been trying to stress that people die as a result of your vote:  if you are going to argue that people would die if you didn't vote then I think we can use some algebra to get at the question of how valuable this vote is.


People die whether I vote or not, it's true but what does that mean?  If you are trying to say that our government has engaged in wars regardless of political leadership, I agree.  Never said otherwise.  However, I think it can be very persuasively argued that the number of people that die, how they die, and why they die can change depending upon how I vote.

 
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anyway i think it is common for folks to lose their personal ontology in a group identity.  the question, my friends, is not "What are we going to do" it is "How can I keep all these brain dead bastards out of my vegetable garden when the S.H.F."  I am a lot more concerned about repelling the starving zombie hordes than I am about making sure that everybody is as free as Jesus made them.  i'd rather eat squirrels than rats but right now there is not enough to go around for everybody.


Who said anything about group identity?  This whole section confuses me because it feels like a non sequitur.  Unless this is something about being a citizen of the US and the good of the nation.  If so, I somewhat agree.  Whenever someone says 'good of the nation' in a serious tone, I become wary.  What do they mean?

Now, I have seen that you have no interest in society (Arden's sig) and that's fine by me.  Honestly, I have no objection to people that wish to live without society.  But the problem is that others do wish to live that way and what they do with that society affects the world.  Because I can be a part of this society and can try to have some effect, I can try to give it the best direction I can and work to make it better.  It's not perfect and bad things will happen.  But without trying to tame it in some directions, even more bad things will probably happen.

Also the "I'm looking out for me, screw society" is a rather selfish mentality, IMO.  Which the only difference I see between that and the selfish politician above, is that the politician exploits society to get what he wants and doesn't care what happens to others.  The "I'm looking out for me" doesn't care about other people at all.

 
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Is voting in the current system something of a tacit approval of the broken politics?  Unfortunately yes, but no less than not voting is tacit approval of the status quo.


This is more creationist logic.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.  What, you don't believe in God?  Why you are still a sinner.  Again be skeptical of such arguments.


Huh?  I know you keep trying to connect me with creationist stuff but I feel you are barking up an empty tree.  If you have the power to object to something but don't, this is often seen as tacit approval.  Think of racism.  If you are on a bus and a racist person starts yelling out about how horrible Race A is and no one says anything otherwise, anyone of Race A on that bus shouldn't be faulted for thinking the other passengers agree.  Maybe they are just too scared to speak up or maybe they agree.  Either way, the other passengers did not challenge what was going on.

 
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You can work with a broken system by putting into power people that are willing to make changes to fix it.


really?  name one.  substituting a soap opera personality passion play for whatever it is that the political system is supposed to represent has always been the name of the game.  If the whole thing is premised on incorrect assumptions it doesn't matter how much you monkey with the business nested within it.


How about most politicians?  They are elected because people believe that they will be able to make the changes that they want for the government.  Now, I myself am not a supporter, however Ron Paul will work as a good example.  If part of what you saw as a broken system is federal income tax and you wished it were abolished, then it would behoove you to try to get Ron Paul elected.  He has consistently pushed for the elimination of federal income tax and would work to make it go away.  Would electing him simply make it disappear? No, and no one is saying that.  But, he would be able to start the ball rolling by, say, limiting who can be taxed.  When his term ends and more needs to be done, you elect another, like minded individual that can take that further.

Now, I’m not saying this example is a good idea or a bad idea, but the point is that not every politician wants to keep things the same.  Some want to change things and are trying to get elected to do just that.  And yes, they are being denied because they are too far outside the ‘mainstream’, so you have to work to get them accepted and move from there.  Again, not easy, but that’s life.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but something that you seem to be saying is that government & society in general is a bad idea and doesn’t work.  Okay, works for me.  Then how do you go about getting rid of them?  You refusing to take part in it won’t make it go away.  Even if a majority doesn’t want to take part in them, they won’t just go away.  As long as there are enough people that want a government and want a society, then they will exist.  Yes, perhaps you can change the culture and it can be that people don’t want to live like that, but it’s not going to just happen and while you are working towards that, what do you do in the mean time?

You reference The Story of B in a later post, and perhaps you think this is a good option.  You never actually say, so I’m inferring and so my apologies if I’m wrong.  If what you prefer is a return to a hunter/gather life rather than agriculture; we all know that most people don’t want this.  Nothing exciting here.  Obviously, if anyone tried to force this one people and dissolve the country, there would be revolt.  People don’t want to give up what they have.  They are happy, they are content, they see no need to ‘go back’.  So, in order to bring about the change you want, you will have to change their worldview.  You’ll need to educate them and convince them; and you seem to doing that in your post, suggesting that I grow my own food.  Awesome, but this will obviously take time.  In the meantime, life continues much as it has: pollution increases, as does deforestation and extinction.  Land use degrades natural habitat beyond recovery within human lifetime.  Assuming you could convince people to change, by the time that change happens, irreparable harm has probably happened.

We have still been outside the system this entire time.  Now, let’s add to your efforts, a person that agrees with you but is willing to work within the system.  While you are trying to change minds and habits, this person helps to make stronger environmental laws that slow damage.  She works to restrict oil and natural resource exploration to save habitable lands.  She pushes energy conservation and recycling.  So, when you have finally changed enough minds there is more benefit to be had.

Yes, the above is a bit of a fairy tale but I’m trying to stress that things don’t happen in a vacuum.  One thing I am not saying is, ‘don’t try, just follow the rules’.  I’ve never said that and do not think that.  I am trying to get you to recognize that governments, society, culture are going to continue to exist and that perhaps the best thing to do is to make them responsible until they can be dismantled, assuming that might be desirable to you.  And my apologies if I read too much into your comments, but I hope you still understand what I was trying to get at.

 
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However such a fatalistic attitude assumes that you could not being to lay the groundwork that would make changing the system possible.


you can start by growing your own beans and taters.  food is the key to revolution.


Awesome, a suggestion!  Seriously, I'm happy about this and sorry if that comes across badly.  (I hate the internet to mask/obscure emotions)  But it's only part of the step...great, I grow my own food.  Now what?  I'm all for hearing about a full revolution, but I do want to hear about it.  How is the revolution going to grow and what happens to those people who don't want to be a part of it?  This is at least more than I'm getting from my friend but it still doesn't answer how that supplants or changes anything in the grand scheme of things.

 
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Your comments regarding the teaching of anti-evolution are spot on of  course.  I would suggest that you consider that a politician will do anything that gets him elected.  the democrat leaders wish they had the drooling fundie nutcase block, if they had a shot at it you would see this behavior supposedly celebrating the teaching of real science nipped in the bud immediately.  i support this by my own truism, "Anyone who deserved the job would never want it".


Again, I think you are trying to connect the No True Scotsman with me.  But never, throughout my post, do I say that one group will always do one thing and the other would never do it.  Yes, there are pandering democrats just like there are pandering republicans...a fact which I mentioned right at the top of all this.  I spoke about people.  Individual people and what their positions were and if those positions were something worth supporting or not.  That is why people need to get informed about who they vote for and really dig into what the person has said and done.  It's not easy and it can be exhausting, but voting party line is not much better than voting for a person because "they're like me".

Here’s the thing about the truism…while I like it, it perhaps goes the wrong way.  Someone who deserves the job, should want it.  They should want to get in there and try to change what bothers them.  Society/culture/government might not be able to be controlled in a way you like, but they can be limited and guided to do the least damage.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,13:01   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 10 2008,11:43)
Politics is a game, and intentions don't equal accomplishment. Changing the rules, as in reforming or restructuring voting and representation, will be followed by adaptations, just a surely as bacteria evolve resistance to antibiotics.


Of course adapatations will happen and people in power will try to figure out how to stay in power.  But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't make the effort.

It is just like evolution; one species does not just give up because another is just going to change.  They both keep changing and one hopes to overcome the other.  (This make evolution sound aware and intentional, which I don't mean to do.)  And if species A does eventually dominate, it wasn't because species B gave up but because they got out competed (or other factors).

Whatever the case, saying 'don't try to improve things because they'll just change too' doesn't seem different than 'don't try to make new anitbiotics because they'll just adapt'.  Maybe the changes will help, and maybe they won't but the Red Queen shouldn't be a reason to avoid trying.


 
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The only useful test of a political system is whether -- in fact, not theory -- it produces alternations of control among the competing tribes.


I don't think I fully agree with this but I do generally agree that the juggling over power is good.  Keeping power from being too concentrated makes it harder to abuse.  Not impossible, but harder.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,13:29   

I don't oppose trying to improve politics. I do, however, doubt that sweeping changes are likely to happen, particularly at the federal level.

There are lots of places where new memes can be tested. The world provides a laboratory full of variations on the theme of democracy and representative government.

There are also lots of variations among state and local governments. I would personally oppose drastic changes at the national or international level that have not earned their place by gaining popularity at lower levels.

The problem race has come up. That's a different issue altogether. Questions about basic rights and basic justice do belong at the national or international level.

EDITED for spelling.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,13:45   

I think we are actually in the same chapter, if not the same page, midwifetoad.

I'm not someone who think that the next 4 years will bring about epic change, no matter who is elected.  And I do also agree that federal changes are slow and smaller areas may be a better way to test new ideas.  

That doesn't mean we can't start talking about the possible solution for problems that do exist and national politics aren't quite the same as state and below.  But still, ideas do need to prove themselves before they are implemented.  If only that concept applied to other areas.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,14:18   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 10 2008,09:18)
But nothing will change until people arrive at politicians' doors singing

You can get anything you want
At Alice's Restaurant



(just wait until the song comes around again and we can all join in)











(Here it comes . . . )

I liked Officer Obie's run-in with blind justice...

Thanks for bringin' up one of my old-time favorite movies.

At least I think it was, but I don't remember it all that well.  

I think.  I think, therefore I am.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,14:21   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 10 2008,09:06)
The tragedy of the US system (and the UK system for that matter) is that the electorate is stuck with limited choice. So limited in fact that it constitutes disenfranchisement in my view. The only way to change that is to engage in some fashion (from "smash the system" to "vote with apathy"), if you don't engage you cannot change a thing, you simply open yourself to exploitation in all its glory.

You're right about another thing though: engagement doesn't have to be done blind or with some faith-like pandering to vested interests, but engagement is your only safe choice.

The rest of this happy horseshit is just the latest in a long line of false equivalences you like to make to annoy people. A bit transparent but otherwise harmless.

Louis

Louis - Get your butt over here, and start votin'!

If they will let Richardthughes (moment of silence) in to the US, they'll obviously let in any old UKer in.  That would be You.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,14:58   

Quote (J-Dog @ Sep. 10 2008,20:21)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 10 2008,09:06)
The tragedy of the US system (and the UK system for that matter) is that the electorate is stuck with limited choice. So limited in fact that it constitutes disenfranchisement in my view. The only way to change that is to engage in some fashion (from "smash the system" to "vote with apathy"), if you don't engage you cannot change a thing, you simply open yourself to exploitation in all its glory.

You're right about another thing though: engagement doesn't have to be done blind or with some faith-like pandering to vested interests, but engagement is your only safe choice.

The rest of this happy horseshit is just the latest in a long line of false equivalences you like to make to annoy people. A bit transparent but otherwise harmless.

Louis

Louis - Get your butt over here, and start votin'!

If they will let Richardthughes (moment of silence) in to the US, they'll obviously let in any old UKer in.  That would be You.

Erm, thanks I think!

Moving to the USA has one downside: more creationists.

There are some advantages, but I've been told by my wife to forget about those. ;-)

Louis

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Bye.

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,22:57   

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man
We got a kinder, gentler machine gun hand. . .

- N. Young

  
rhmc



Posts: 340
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,18:46   

Quote (jeffox @ Sep. 10 2008,01:54)
Voting isn't so bad.  I've come to the realization that, as a borderline anarchist, my other option is to vote with my 20 gauge.  Since I also recognize Machaevalianism (sp.) for what it is, I'll stick to voting the normal way, for now.  :)

if you get over your apparent squeamishness, you could join my political group.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2008,08:59   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 10 2008,12:49)
...and so much of the 'get involved and make a difference' poofery best reserved for college freshman is predicated on the assumption that decisions are made in this manner.

...and so much of the "I don't like the choices so I'll not vote" whining best reserved for youth is predicated on the assumption that sitting in the corner sucking one's thumb will produce positive results.

Instead of that, I think I'll work on becoming a teacher, where I can work toward making the system better by educating the next generations.

While I'm doing that, I'll also be voting for the candidates likely to do the least amount of damage to your constitutional right to bitch about the government, based on what they say and how they've acted in the past. I, for one, think that's an idea worth keeping. In fact, there's a whole list of ideas that I think are worth hanging on to.

Contrary to the cute little strawman you've built of me, I don't vote with idealist faith that the Democrats are the saviors of the country. In fact, going back to the original analogy I used of the swimmer, you'll note that I only felt that the current crop of the party's candidates were paralleling the shore, not making things worse, or at least not to the extant that the Republicans would. As someone mentioned earlier, one of those two sets of candidates will be elected, whether you or I like that or not. Given that choice, I will be voting for the set of candidates that intends to do the least amount of damage based on the evidence in hand. If you prefer to think of it this way (feel free because I sometimes do), I'm not supporting Democrats as much as I'm opposing Republicans.

At the same time, I'll be filling out my dance card by voicing my dissatisfaction and the reasons for it to anyone who'll listen, and pushing to get better candidates through the system. Assuming there is still a Republic by the next election, I will have worked to get slightly less damaging candidates on the party's ticket. Whether or not I and like-minded people are successful in that regard depends on how well we educate, and how much help we have. From what you've written thus far on the topic, I take it that we shouldn't be counting on you to assist in that effort?

So far, everything you've said boils down to "the system sucks". I don't think you'll find anyone here arguing against that, Erasmus. The fact that some of us choose to try and do something about that is what separates us.

Near as I can tell you've yet to offer a more productive course of action, but if you've got one, by all means, let's hear it. If there's a more efficient way of getting people in office to make the system better, I'm all for it.

If on the other hand, your contention is that the protections of the Constitution are not worth keeping, and that the Republic should just be scrapped and allowed to become a theocracy run by the most ignorant and autocratic people in the country, then you and I will simply have to part company on our premises.

Machiavellianism may be the political reality, but we can work long and hard to fix that, or we can allow it to continue unabated. In this time and place, in this context, where we stand today, those are the options. We can't even include armed rebellion as a last resort option, Erasmus. The reason it worked for the colonists a few centuries back is that they had both popular (not universal, but certainly popular) support and support from abroad, two very critical components to revolution which we are distinctly lacking.

So, if you've got a third viable option, I'm listening.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2008,12:10   

Yo, Lou...when you become a teacher are ya gonna keep running your girl on girl websites?  

Just curious.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2008,12:20   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 13 2008,18:10)
Yo, Lou...when you become a teacher are ya gonna keep running your girl on girl websites?  

Just curious.

Would that be bi-curious?

{shudders}

Louis

P.S. What's wrong with it if he does FTK. Remember to reply on your own thread btw, I've forgotten so smack my bottom and call me Cyril.

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Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2008,20:35   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 13 2008,13:10)
Yo, Lou...when you become a teacher are ya gonna keep running your girl on girl websites?  

Just curious.

That depends, Ftk. Are you and your lying IDiot buddies still going to be willfully as ignorant as a box of rocks and such an easy target for mockery? Are you still going to be lying your asses off in an effort to illegally sneak your Jesus in the back door of my science classroom? Are you still going to be trying to insert your bigoted superstitions into the laws of this country in an effort to deny equality to all Americans? Are you still going to be trying to force everyone else to believe in your silly fairy tale book so that you feel better about dying on the premise that if everyone denies reality then reality will change?

If so, then yes.

Also, I'm going to teach my students the joys of barbecuing Christian babies for Arbor Day cookouts, force them to have gay sex out of wedlock while the class watches and takes notes (that will be on the test, class), and for field trips we're going to go to the nearest church and pee in the baptismal. Also, I'm going to teach them all to drive solar powered cars and recycle.

Why do you ask?

ETA: P.S. I may also heartily encourage them to become Science Professors.

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 13 2008,21:36

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2008,20:49   

Yesss!  Teach them professor values!

P.S.  I must admit I'm a relatively lame member of the guild: I'm only practicing atheism, unjustified claims of expertise and knowledge, liberal beliefs, and anti-patriotism (not a US citizen, hehe) and am sorely lacking in censorship, socialism, liberal grading, liberal bias and promotion of sexual immorality.  But hey, we do what we can!

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If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2008,22:05   

midwife my use of 'wrong' is of course predicated upon some version of Aldo Leopold's definition of what is ethical.  I would say, instead, There are Few Decent Governments In The World and just leave it at that.  For you, voting is like going to church is for so many people.  Very well.  Hell I went to church the other day.  Only because we were lined up to do the music, long boring story.

spottedwind I believe i hinted at options.  I would enjoy that conversation but I do think I have derailed this thread enough.  Mebbe I'll start that thread later.

Surely context can tell you which groups I mean.  After all, you described them.  Anyway, determining 'intent' behind falshood is a subjective matter.  but...

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Whether what they think actually is the best is another conversation.


i think that is the important conversation.

regarding doing both, i meant that from my perspectives there are no suggestions, within this model, worth offering.  That is far different from saying that there are no suggested alternatives at all.

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I was trying to understand HOW to change a system that we wanted changed if we preclude physical violence and participating in the system.


the 64000 dollar question.  I suggest that it can't happen without physical violence, but I am not advocating physical violence.  Just that, as you note, those with power will not relinquish that power easily.

you correctly understood the meaning of what i intended by 'group identity'.  i do suggest that you look up the original quote tarden lifted for his sig line.  i am not advocating living 'without society', just the global (or even continental) version that has been the result of the way things are now.

i'm not suggesting you are a creationist, just pointing out that the objection you make that 'not voting is tacit approval of the status quo'.  that is about the same thing as when the fundies say 'the atheist knows deep down there is a god' and other such muddlesome foolishness.  false  dichotomy and all that.

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the point is that not every politician wants to keep things the same.


they want to keep things the same in that none are advocating the abolition of the system by virtue of their election.  that is the 'same' that is the problem.

regarding B, I think this is the ecological imperative that is the bottom line for the future of human societies on earth.  it's the only option if we wish to maintain the sorts of social and ecological connections that have defined humanity for the majority of their existence on this planet.  will folks who love zipping around on jet planes and eating advocadoes while living in alaska resist?  of course.  i return to leopold's definition of what is good and right to settle this issue.  of course whether that definition is robust is another matter.

i am involved in resistance activities that participate within the system as it exists now.  science is the only tool i have at my disposal for that sort of resistance, and it is a particularly ineffective tool within the american system.  i'm just bringing this up to demonstrate that i'm not advocating hermits turning off tuning out and dropping out, or dreadlocked hippies beating drums at a protest.  

growing your own food is a start.  disavowing personal responsibility for your fellow man, in principle and not in practice, is another.  In other words, warm fuzzy platitudes about all men created equal, love it or leave it, vote or shut up, etc etc are invalid.  I'm not sure if this is clear enough, but I'm not advocating selfishness or screw everyone but me.  I don't live like that.  I'm saying I distrust solutions that work at the scale above the individual.

here is a fine example of my frustration.  both of these douchebag teams running for president are advocating clean coal technologies in the face of mountains of evidence (or the destruction of over 700 mountains as evidence) that coal energy is poisonous to the environment, poisonous to water, destroys ancient forests, hunting grounds and poisonous to social relations within human communities.  yet both parties are parroting the talking points given them by the coal industry who is heavily invested in both parties.  where do you go with that?  there aren't options.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2008,22:07   

Oleg, that link is hilarious.  I did learn something though.  A few weeks ago, I saw a clip on the news of some guy mooning an audience of people.  I didn't pay much attention to it because I was just walking through my living room as my husband was watching the news.

Now, it all makes sense...

Quote
A Kansas university professor, Fort Hays State University debate coach William Shanahan, "is under fire after a video showing him mooning a room full of students and faculty during a heated debate found its way onto YouTube." He "is shown on the video in a profane, in-your-face argument with his counterpart from the University of Pittsburgh ...."


ROTFLMAO!  That's who I saw in the clip...what a loon!!!!  Being a professor and all (a *science* professor at that!), I hope you're able to keep your pants pulled up while you're lecturing your students!

Don't you have duel citizenship?  Haven't you been in the states since the early 90's?

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2008,22:22   

Yeah, ftk, Shanahan is quite a loon.  Here's some additional info about him.  

I don't have a US citizenship, just a green card.

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If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2008,22:24   

Quote
Instead of that, I think I'll work on becoming a teacher, where I can work toward making the system better by educating the next generations.


wow, lou, that's great.  i'm serious.  But note that it doesn't have anything to do with voting encouraging the bastards.  i think it is hilarious that you find some sort of value in holding your nose and trying to determine which is the least shitty diaper in the bin, as if that did anything but encourage the bastards.

Quote
Contrary to the cute little strawman you've built of me, I don't vote with idealist faith that the Democrats are the saviors of the country.


What is not a strawman is that you have an idealist faith that one of the candidate is more of a savior than the other.  the swimming analogy is inadequate for many reasons, but you could salvage it by comparing our situation to prisoners voting for which inmate gets trustee.  i don't care who it is, it is all done without my consent.  the idea that your vote influences the behavior of the candidate is just silly.  voting = praying to a god.  how do you know you are voting in the right election?  better register to vote in every district.  

Quote
So far, everything you've said boils down to "the system sucks". I don't think you'll find anyone here arguing against that, Erasmus. The fact that some of us choose to try and do something about that is what separates us.


Ok the system sucks.  what you fail to comprehend, Lou, is that voting is not 'doing something about it'.  Further, I am not failing to 'do something about it'.  I'm just not participating in a social exercise akin to "American Idol".  So it makes you feel like a good citizen, that's just peachy.  that's a pretty empty thing at the end of the day, huh?

Quote
If on the other hand, your contention is that the protections of the Constitution are not worth keeping, and that the Republic should just be scrapped and allowed to become a theocracy run by the most ignorant and autocratic people in the country, then you and I will simply have to part company on our premises.


speaking of men of straw...  i don't know if you noticed but all of these zeroes make strong testaments about their 'faith'.  sounds like you can't get a candidate that does share your premises.  that's gotta suck.

Quote
We can't even include armed rebellion as a last resort option, Erasmus. The reason it worked for the colonists a few centuries back is that they had both popular (not universal, but certainly popular) support and support from abroad, two very critical components to revolution which we are distinctly lacking.


I don't even consider those as the most important reasons why armed rebellion fails today.  yer squirrel guns were fine when you were fighting against other squirrel guns.  that's not the case any more.  dying for your ideals is a dumb thing to do, and that is surely the result of attempting that sort of resistance.  

the problem is not just american imperial hegemony but the imperial hegemony of every other nation.  fracture this republic and you will have another, seeded by a foreign power.

the third option is grow your own food, remember how to make white oak baskets, sing old songs, go see yer granmaw, plant on the signs, unplug whenever you can, shoot squirrels, raise chickens and teach these things to children.  throw sand in the cogs of the machine every chance you get, but do not sacrifice yourself for your principles.

there is a vast literature on the alternative path but none of it is represented in the mainstream discourse because it does not accept the foundational premise that you are failing to question, namely that we should live this way.  

if you do not question this premise then these will not seem to be alternatives but cop-outs.  I can lead you to the conclusion but I can't make you accept it.  Perhaps returning to the ethical prescription that is a foundation of my philosophy is a start.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2008,22:44   

ARE YOU PEOPLE WATCHING SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE???  FREAKING HILARIOUS OPENING SKETCH WITH PALIN AND HILLARY!!!

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,02:18   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 13 2008,20:44)
ARE YOU PEOPLE WATCHING SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE???  FREAKING HILARIOUS OPENING SKETCH WITH PALIN AND HILLARY!!!

Thanks for the tip, FTK. SNL is on two hours later out here (or three? In the olden days it was on at 10:30 in the Midwest) so I was able to check it out after I read your post. Very funny, with not a little emotional truth, I suspect.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,06:56   

Speaking of comedy, check out recent Sinfest strips. Very funny parodies of current US political goings on.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,10:08   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 13 2008,20:44)
ARE YOU PEOPLE WATCHING SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE???  FREAKING HILARIOUS OPENING SKETCH WITH PALIN AND HILLARY!!!

And here is the skit itself.

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,15:05   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 13 2008,22:07)
Oleg, that link is hilarious.  I did learn something though.  A few weeks ago, I saw a clip on the news of some guy mooning an audience of people.  I didn't pay much attention to it because I was just walking through my living room as my husband was watching the news.

Now, it all makes sense...

Quote
A Kansas university professor, Fort Hays State University debate coach William Shanahan, "is under fire after a video showing him mooning a room full of students and faculty during a heated debate found its way onto YouTube." He "is shown on the video in a profane, in-your-face argument with his counterpart from the University of Pittsburgh ...."


ROTFLMAO!  That's who I saw in the clip...what a loon!!!!  Being a professor and all (a *science* professor at that!), I hope you're able to keep your pants pulled up while you're lecturing your students!

Don't you have duel citizenship?  Haven't you been in the states since the early 90's?

Shanahan wasn't a scientist or a science professor by any stretch of the imagination.  Naw, he specialized in communications . . . couldn't ya tell??

Shanahan has a strong aversion to science; also, to law enforcement personnel, shoes, public schools, haircuts, professors who make more $$$ than he does, his son's T-ball umpire, district court judges, those who question his pronouncements, mown lawns, interstate speed limits below 85 mph, optometrists, and teachers.  His arrests for aggravated assault were pled down to disorderly conduct.

FHSU is well rid of him.  Why the professor from UPittsburgh wasn't also fired is a mystery.

*************************
olegt, I hope you don't have "duel" citizenship; we'd hate to see you go the way of Alexander Hamilton.

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,15:40   

duel/dual, piranha/pariah, whatev...

:p  :p  :p

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,15:41   

Oh, snap...

My friggin' emotican didn't work...

:p  :p  :p  :p  :p  :p  :p  :p  :p  :p

There we go!!!!

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,16:36   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 14 2008,21:40)
duel/dual, piranha/pariah, whatev...

:p  :p  :p

6000/4600000000, handwaving crap pulled out of the rectums of religious apologists/mountains of actual scientific data whatev....

Louis

P.S. What's with this "oh snap" stuff? The only place I've heard it is on "My Name Is Earl", and it's the trashy trailer park ex wife who says it. That similarity I get, the one problem is she is quite hot....

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,21:53   

Lipstick on a Wing Nut

Katha Pollitt poses ten questions for Sarah Palin (after a brutal but clean body check into the boards). The ones of particular interest to this board quoted below.
   
Quote (Katha Pollitt @ The Nation, September 10, 2008)

  • You say you don't believe global warming is man-made. Could you tell us what scientists you've spoken with or read who have led you to that conclusion? What do you think the 2,500 scientists of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change are getting wrong?

  • If you didn't try to fire Wasilla librarian Mary Ellen Baker over her refusal to consider censoring books, why did you try to fire her?

  • Approximately how old is the earth? Five thousand years? 10,000? 5 billion?

  • You're suing the federal government to have polar bears removed from the endangered species list, even as Alaska's northern coastal ice is melting and falling into the sea. Can you explain the science behind your decision?

  • You've suggested that God approves of the Iraq War and the Alaska pipeline. How do you know?


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,21:55   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2008,17:36)
P.S. What's with this "oh snap" stuff?

It's kiddie slang. My fourteen year old son uses it.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,22:24   

Quote
It's kiddie slang. My fourteen year old son uses it.


So does PZ  :O  :O

I dare ya to say that to him.... :p

Actually, I'm working on replacing my crude words with more lady-like language.  So, while I'd usually say "shit", I tried substituting with "snap".   "Friggin'" = "fuckin"...you get the idea.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,22:32   

hey FtK why don't you work on correcting your abysmal misunderstandings of science instead of fretting about your sinful potty mouth.  

besides jesus said if you consider it in your heart you might as well have done it.  so.... friggin' aint getting you very far, hon.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2008,22:32   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 14 2008,22:53)
Lipstick on a Wing Nut

I put my response on the FtK thread.

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,02:49   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 15 2008,03:55)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2008,17:36)
P.S. What's with this "oh snap" stuff?

It's kiddie slang. My fourteen year old son uses it.

Your 14 year old son is the hot ex wife lady from My Name Is Earl?

Whoa. You Americans, you have everything! USA USA USA!!!!!!

Wait....have I misunderstood something?

Louis

P.S. FTK: Dare us to say what to PZ? You want us to take the piss out of him more than we already do? You have a strange idea of what people's relationships are. Just because you idolise priests and pastors doesn't mean a) everyone who is idolised is a priest or pastor, or b) that other people idolise anyone. Get your husband to give you some cash so you can run down to the corner store and buy yourself a clue.

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Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,17:23   

Inevitably, his work brought him into conflict with Palin and other highly politicized Christian fundamentalists in the valley. "Things got very intense around here in the '90s -- the culture war was very hot here," Bess said. "The evangelicals were trying to take over the valley. They took over the school board, the community hospital board, even the local electric utility. And Sarah Palin was in the direct center of all these culture battles, along with the churches she belonged to."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/09/15/bess/

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,19:54   

Quote
Another valley activist, Philip Munger, says that Palin also helped push the evangelical drive to take over the Mat-Su Borough school board. "She wanted to get people who believed in creationism on the board," said Munger, a music composer and teacher. "I bumped into her once after my band played at a graduation ceremony at the Assembly of God. I said, 'Sarah, how can you believe in creationism -- your father's a science teacher.' And she said, 'We don't have to agree on everything.'

"I pushed her on the earth's creation, whether it was really less than 7,000 years old and whether dinosaurs and humans walked the earth at the same time. And she said yes, she'd seen images somewhere of dinosaur fossils with human footprints in them."


Linky

   
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,20:21   

The media (via the internet) certainly doesn't like Palin, although she has given them a lot to choose from. I had a quick look at Fox and they aren't criticising her but they aren't gushing over her either.

The creationism bit was interesting, like global warming she has gone vague on her beliefs since the nomination.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,20:50   

I'm not trying to be a jerk by posting this.  I know you guys are worried that Palin might stop science in it's tracks so you won't vote for the McCain ticket, but I wonder what if any of you guys worry about the stuff in this clip about Obama.  I've heard these issues mentioned in the past, and it seems a bit worrisome to me.  

Honestly, I don't have anything against Obama.  During the start of the campaigns I actually leaned his direction.  I even posted postive youtube stuff at my blog.  But, as time went on, I started hearing things that freaked me out just a bit.

I've no doubt that all the candidates have skeletons in there closet, but some of these things about Obama worry me a bit.

What do you guys think?

Yes, we need to get past the the stupid scare tactics in the clip (eerie music, etc.), but is there need to worry about this stuff?

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Art



Posts: 69
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,21:04   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 15 2008,20:50)
I'm not trying to be a jerk by posting this.  I know you guys are worried that Palin might stop science in it's tracks so you won't vote for the McCain ticket, but I wonder what if any of you guys worry about the stuff in this clip about Obama.  I've heard these issues mentioned in the past, and it seems a bit worrisome to me.  

Honestly, I don't have anything against Obama.  During the start of the campaigns I actually leaned his direction.  I even posted postive youtube stuff at my blog.  But, as time went on, I started hearing things that freaked me out just a bit.

I've no doubt that all the candidates have skeletons in there closet, but some of these things about Obama worry me a bit.

What do you guys think?

Yes, we need to get past the the stupid scare tactics in the clip (eerie music, etc.), but is there need to worry about this stuff?

In a word, no.

Ftk, you're so gullible.  You probably still think Harry Truman was a mob flunkie to the very end.

(Actually, odds are that you don't even get my allusion.)

   
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,21:08   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 15 2008,20:50)
I'm not trying to be a jerk by posting this.  I know you guys are worried that Palin might stop science in it's tracks so you won't vote for the McCain ticket, but I wonder what if any of you guys worry about the stuff in this clip about Obama.  I've heard these issues mentioned in the past, and it seems a bit worrisome to me.  

Honestly, I don't have anything against Obama.  During the start of the campaigns I actually leaned his direction.  I even posted postive youtube stuff at my blog.  But, as time went on, I started hearing things that freaked me out just a bit.

I've no doubt that all the candidates have skeletons in there closet, but some of these things about Obama worry me a bit.

What do you guys think?

Yes, we need to get past the the stupid scare tactics in the clip (eerie music, etc.), but is there need to worry about this stuff?

Typical Republican slime machine in action. Me personally, I'm more worried about this.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,21:09   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 15 2008,21:50)
I know you guys are worried that Palin might stop science in it's tracks

Anybody here remember saying this?

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,21:14   

According to FreeRepublic, the thing to really worry about is blacks rioting and burning everything down if Obama loses. They suggest buying a gun.

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,21:38   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 15 2008,21:14)
According to FreeRepublic, the thing to really worry about is blacks rioting and burning everything down if Obama loses. They suggest buying a gun.

Depends, doesn't it, on whether the loss would be perceived as due to racism. There's a lot of talk about otherwise solid Democrats not being willing to vote for a black candidate.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,22:36   

Yes, of course.  I'd forgotten that Republicans are constantly working those giant "slime machines" in order to sway the gullible masses to vote for them.  I'm sure  there's not a thing in that video that's even close to being accurate...silly me to have even considered that Obama is anything less than the Messiah himself.  

And, I'm sure you'd be very hard pressed to find a Democrat who has misrepresented Palin....no spin doctors on your side of the fence.  

*eyes rolling*

I wonder who's the more guillible...

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,22:41   

Oh, I think racisim would definitely be a part of an Obama loss. While the GOP has primarily been the home of white racists since the 60's, it wasn't a 100% complete relocation, and there are some racist Democrats.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2008,22:49   

FTK I can't use Youtube at the moment. If you have some important, meaningful accusation against Obama, could you just come right out and make it. I'm guessing it's one of those 'Obama knew someone years ago who did something bad years ago' pieces of junk. Hopefully it'll be something amusing instead, like that recent 'Obama dealt drugs from Pakistan' BS.

(The absolute highlight for me was the Clinton years, when my rural republican relatives tried to convince me that Clinton was a murdering rapist, who ran drugs through Mena airport, and was going to use Y2K as a bogus event to declare martial law and have the US occupied by hidden Chinese soldiers.)

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,06:08   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 15 2008,22:36)
I wonder who's the more guillible...

Funny. I don't.

Do you need a clue?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,06:37   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 15 2008,22:41)
Oh, I think racisim would definitely be a part of an Obama loss. While the GOP has primarily been the home of white racists since the 60's, it wasn't a 100% complete relocation, and there are some racist Democrats.

Actually I know quite a few (~30) white racists, or at least those that display all the generally accepted outward signs of racism, and each and everyone, to the man, is a Democrat.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,07:19   

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 16 2008,04:36)
[SNIP]

I wonder who's the more guillible...

Oh I don't wonder about that, I imagine when all is averaged out whatever ever groupings you chose to select are all about equally gullible. The trick is to KNOW you're gullible, try very hard to prevent yourself being fooled by the same tricks (the old adage about "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" springs to mind), and generally start from a position of interested scepticism* when provided with any novel claim. This works for science as it does in politics.

What frustrates me about this whole debacle (from the notroversy about evolutionary biology to the current presidential race) is the pointless identity politics. "Vote for Palin because she's like you", "Don't let those athiestic science professors tell you about science believe me 'cos Jesus said so" etc. It's not only pointless crapola, it's a distraction from the REAL point: the evidence. In many cases (though by no means all) even in politics, the evidence points clearly to a solution for a variety of problems. Even when it doesn;t one can form one's choice of vote around the issues, how well they are formulated and how consistent they are with the available evidence etc. The tragedy for me is that because this involves some tiny bit of effort and research, even many intelligent, hard working people avoid doing it.

And it isn't restricted to the USA, I'd like to say that the UK is "getting like the USA" but in this "identity politics" respect it isn't. It already IS like the USA. The difference is quite an interesting one though. Just like those nice rabid fundamentalist christians glare across at those wicked rabid fundamentalist muslims and think "Gosh, isn't it OBVIOUS how dumb these ideas are? Don't they SEE it?" the nice rabid fundamentalist muslims are looking right back at the wicked rabid fundamentalist christians and thinking the same thing. This also works without the words "muslim", "christian", "rabid" or "fundamentalist". Insert your own term for kicks! The same applies "Don't those liberals realise how stupid they are?" "Don't those conservatives get it?" people are so tied up in labels and groups that the wood cannot be seen for the trees. I don't care if Sarah Palin or Barack Obama or Joe Biden or John McCain or Gordon Brown or Charles Clarke or whoever is like me (and I guarantee you they aren't), I don't care if their black, white, gay, straight, male, female, religious, irreligious, the next messiah or satan in a fucking kaftan. It's all a tiresome irrelevance. Their policies DO matter, what they will DO matters. Whether they went on Saturday Night Live and fucked a chicken, or what Conan O'Brian, Bill Donohue, Johnathon Ross, Richard Littlejohn or anyone else thinks of them is irrelevant. Even if these candidates WERE you, a clone of you, they are in a very different environment from you. They grew up differently, they are in Westminster or Washington or wherever, a world apart from where YOU are.

Wanking on about who is more gullible or who is more like who or who will be ousted by racism is playing the very game these people want you to play.

The one thing guaranteed to maintain the status quo is to continue playing into their hands. You want to talk about who is more gullible FTK? Who cares? One thing I know is that you, me, everyone needs to look close to home FIRST. That's where this stuff always begins. Complain about other people's gullibility when yours is sorted out. And considering you think the world is either 10k years old or 4.6 billion but you can't yet make up your mind, and you think Walt's Whacky World of Weirdness bears any resemblance to observable reality, I'd say you have a LOT of work to do. Ignore the identity politics, focus on self improvement.

Rant over, you have annoyed me enough.

Louis

*NOT hostile cynicism, the two are different, despite the whining of various stripes of believer.

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,07:23   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,12:37)
Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 15 2008,22:41)
Oh, I think racisim would definitely be a part of an Obama loss. While the GOP has primarily been the home of white racists since the 60's, it wasn't a 100% complete relocation, and there are some racist Democrats.

Actually I know quite a few (~30) white racists, or at least those that display all the generally accepted outward signs of racism, and each and everyone, to the man, is a Democrat.

Yeah, well I know 60 paedophile, nun killing, racist, homophobic, sexist, arms dealering anti-semites, all of whom vote Republican and Conservative AND BNP and Nazi, all of whom were responsible for the Holocaust all of whom believe in YOUR specific sect of religious drivel and all of whom attend YOUR church and were cloned from YOUR big toenail clippings.

And the useful productive discussion of the issues in that was where?

Heddle, for an intelligent and educated bloke, you sure do have some mightily fucked up mental blinkers.

Louis

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dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,07:38   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 16 2008,07:23)
     
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,12:37)
       
Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 15 2008,22:41)
Oh, I think racisim would definitely be a part of an Obama loss. While the GOP has primarily been the home of white racists since the 60's, it wasn't a 100% complete relocation, and there are some racist Democrats.

Actually I know quite a few (~30) white racists, or at least those that display all the generally accepted outward signs of racism, and each and everyone, to the man, is a Democrat.

Yeah, well I know 60 paedophile, nun killing, racist, homophobic, sexist, arms dealering anti-semites, all of whom vote Republican and Conservative AND BNP and Nazi, all of whom were responsible for the Holocaust all of whom believe in YOUR specific sect of religious drivel and all of whom attend YOUR church and were cloned from YOUR big toenail clippings.

And the useful productive discussion of the issues in that was where?

Heddle, for an intelligent and educated bloke, you sure do have some mightily fucked up mental blinkers.

Louis

Louis,

No I'm quite serious. And I actually do not know, personally, any Republican racists. I'm not stupid enough to say there are none, I just do not know any, personally, while I personally know, as I stated, ~30 racists (or maybe not, you decide) who are Democrats.

The explanation is actually quite simple. I grew up in a lower middle class (perhaps poor is more accurate) inner-city neighborhood, in Pittsburgh’s Northside region, for those who know the city. (The stadiums are in this area.) My neighborhood and schools were racially divided, a little more that half were black. To first order, everyone in this environment grows up a racist. It’s an “us vs. them” world that if you grew up in the lilly-white suburbs (like my kids are) you’d never understand. If you had to get from point A to B, you performed a risk analysis/optimization that took into account variables like, time of day, time of year, how many people were with you, how fast you just had to get there, what streets you had to cross, and most importantly, the prevailing neighborhood atmosphere at the moment.  If there had been a recent black v. white incident, the chance of another was much greater.

Again, to first order, there are only two ways out of this that I know of: religion (virtually any common variety with ethical teachings will suffice) and/or education. Fortunately I got both.

The last reunion I went to was a couple summers ago. Of the thirty or forty close friends I grew up with, only five or six of us had “gotten out.” (Another oddity for suburbanites—as kids didn’t drive to a field and play soccer with strangers, we played with the same kids, every day, year in year out. You could be in a fistfight at noon and best friends again an hour later.)

What about the rest of my friends, who didn’t get out? The rest are Pittsburgh policemen, firemen, and other blue collar workers. Many (because of their fathers) are in the Boilermakers union (welders) or Sheet Metal Workers (duct workers) or are union glaziers.

Now, after a few Iron City beers, actually it doesn’t take that much, these guys will unleash a torrent of complaints with generous application of the N-word. I didn’t get promoted because they gave it to some F**king N***… If my daughter came home with a N***,… This sort of thing.

The only other group they lash out upon with comparable animosity are the “party of the rich” Republicans. Like their union daddies before them, they are staunch, die-hard, union Democrats.

Now to be sure I don’t know if these guys, or at least if all these guys, in spite of talking the talk, are really racists. Like many people with a tough life they look for a scapegoat. And unless you’ve walked in their shoes, unless you grew up in an “us vs. them” hostile environment, you really can’t judge their attitudes. It is more complex than it is made out to be. I think the most accurate portrayal I’ve ever seen is Matt Dillion in Crash. Was he a racist or not? It’s hard to say.

Now, do you actually have a plausible story about knowing, personally, " 60 paedophile, nun killing, racist, homophobic, sexist, arms dealering anti-semites, all of whom vote Republican" ? If so, let's have it.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,08:08   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,13:38)
[SNIP tiresomely irrelevant life history]

Now, do you actually have a plausible story about knowing, personally, " 60 paedophile, nun killing, racist, homophobic, sexist, arms dealering anti-semites, all of whom vote Republican" ? If so, let's have it.

Of course I don't, it was deliberate hyperbole, which, if you cannot spot it (when telegraphed that seriously) is a worrying deficiency on your part.

I do know plenty of conservative (UK right wing-ish party) voting racists, labour (UK centre-right wing-ish party) voting racists, plenty of educated racists, plenty of American racists of both parties from when I lived there, plenty of uneducated racists, voting middle class racists, working class racists, even (based on my schooling) incredibly upper class racists, atheist racists, religious racists, handicapped racists, able bodied racists etc etc etc. I know an ironically diverse set of racists, some I'm related to, some I'm acquainted with, some I work with. And the question remains.....SO WHAT?

As usual, you've played into the identity politics and missed my point. You're sufficiently mathematically capable (vastly more than I am for example) to understand the error prone nature of small, biased sample sizes. You're sufficiently intelligent to realise that playing these silly identity games is utterly meaningless when it comes to producing useful results from politics. And you should be sufficiently aware enough to realise that your comment, whilst its utterly unverifiable plausibility or lack thereof is yet another irrelevance, was yet another in group/out group red herring in a sea over stocked with that species of fish.

The point is not that there are naughty people on the other side, there are naughty people everywhere. I voted Lib Dem at the last election and I guarantee you that somewhere a Lib Dem voter is a paedophile. Great! What have we learned from that? Something new? Something profound? Or is it merely what we already knew about humans i.e. their less desirable traits (as well as their more desirable traits) are distributed pretty evenly across most of the relatively arbitrary groups we care to make. Rocket science this is not.

So like I said to FTK, why keep playing into the hands of the corrupt elements of government by giving both tongue and credence to this cretinous identity politics? Instead of a) doing nothing, b) having some fun, c) contributing seriously) or d) actually bothering to make an examinable and useful contribution you have plumbed for e) irrelevant identity politics. Is that a productive use of your education and intellect regarding a serious issue? Nope. Is it yet another whiny datum in the ages old exchange of ad hominem and tu quoque fallacies between slightly differing groups? Yes.

YOU can do better, so do it.

Louis

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dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,08:27   

Louis,

 
Quote
The point is not that there are naughty people on the other side, there are naughty people everywhere


No that is not the point. At least not the point I'm concerned with. Who would argue that there are not bad guys everywhere? I was responding, specifically, to steve s's comment:

   
Quote
While the GOP has primarily been the home of white racists since the 60's, it wasn't a 100% complete relocation, and there are some racist Democrats.


Am I parsing that wrong? Is it not true that the message it sends is that the majority, even the vast majority, of white racists are Republicans?

Well when I think of actual white racists, I think of where I grew up, and where I grew up is overwhelmingly Democrat.

So I don't see how I missed the point. I provided the life history, which you can believe or not I don't care, as an explanation after your, um, rebuttal about knowing Republican pedophiles. You seemed to imply, as I read it, that I could not possibly have an explanation for my claim, and then you dismiss that explanation as irrelevant.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,08:39   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,08:27)
I was responding, specifically, to steve s's comment:

   
Quote
While the GOP has primarily been the home of white racists since the 60's, it wasn't a 100% complete relocation, and there are some racist Democrats.


Am I parsing that wrong? Is it not true that the message it sends is that the majority, even the vast majority, of white racists are Republicans?

Dave, Google up "Nixon southern strategy" to see the point of what Steve was getting at. In short, Louis is right (and it pains me to no end to say that).  You seem to be assuming that your limited experience with racists is typical. It is not.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,08:53   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 16 2008,08:39)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,08:27)
I was responding, specifically, to steve s's comment:

       
Quote
While the GOP has primarily been the home of white racists since the 60's, it wasn't a 100% complete relocation, and there are some racist Democrats.


Am I parsing that wrong? Is it not true that the message it sends is that the majority, even the vast majority, of white racists are Republicans?

Dave, Google up "Nixon southern strategy" to see the point of what Steve was getting at. In short, Louis is right (and it pains me to no end to say that).  You seem to be assuming that your limited experience with racists is typical. It is not.

I am not assuming it is typical. I am saying that more or less equating racism with the Republican party is an over simplification. There is a lot more complexity out there.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,09:09   

No Heddle, I didn't imply that. Learn to read. That is entirely orthogonal to the point I was making. Again you ignore the point(s) *I* am making and insert fantasies of your own confection.

If Steve's claims are false, which is a distinct possibility, then they won't be falsified by referral to your small, biased sample, which is basically no better than an anecdote. They will be falsified by referring to some productive evidence, which your 30 racist democrats isn't even close to being. Steve's claim has no support that he has provided either. BOTH of you are guilty of the same thing: i.e. in group/out group identity politics in absence of reliable evidence. Both of you are guilty of playing nonsense games and advancing support free ridiculous argumenta ad homines.

It is irrelevant who has more racists Reps or Dems, it is irrelevant whether you personally know more Dem racists than Steve or he more Rep racists than you. It is a woeful series of tiresome red herrings. Unless you and Steve have some statistically meaningful study to show that Rep voters or Dem voters are more racist than the other group on average, you have nothing. You're both just flapping your lips (or in this case fingers) and wasting everyone's time with meaningless identity politics.

So to establish the claim that the home of US white racism is the Rep party or the Dem party cannot be done or refuted by the means you two are engaged in. By virtue of the manner those means you are engaged in is expressed you are merely contributing to the noise and not the signal. Ignore these tiresome irrelevances unless you have some relevant, statistically meaningful evidence to bring to bear on the subject. You, as an intelligent, educated person are not only capable of bringing that sort of evidence to bear on a topic, it is your responsibility to do so.

What ISN'T irrelevant is the policies put forward for scrutiny by the various parties, their actual actions, their voting histories etc. Let's reduce this to one issue for the sake of simplicity: racial discrimination. Whether or not John McCain (or his supporters) uses the word "nigger" or Barack Obama (or his supporters) uses it are both gross irrelevances. What IS important are the policies John McCain or Barack Obama will enact which have an effect on racial discrimination.

The fact of whether or not I am more like John McCain or Barack Obama is yet another irrelevance. The point I've been making is "don't believe the hype". Don't buy into the to and fro of irrelevant crap from all sides. Is one side more guilty or irrelevant crap than the other? Quite possibly, but that itself is more often than not another exceedingly tiresome irrelevance. All that matters are the issues, the various policies formulated to deal with them, how and when those policies will be enacted.

The only time that the the racism of one party over the other becomes relevant is when you can demonstrate a link between formulation of policy and that groundswell of voter racism. If one party is continually promoting candidates for seats who unashamedly espouse demonstrably racist ideology, who campaign for policies that would enhance discrimination of the basis of race, more than the other party, then we can make these sorts of claims with some basis. Other than that, we can't.

That is precisely NOT what you or Steve are doing. That is precisely NOT what typifies the presidential political "debate" in the USA (and indeed elsewhere). My final point, repeated in several posts, has been that it is the responsibility of people with the intellect and education to appreciate this to try to ignore the irrelevances and focus on the issues. You are not doing that.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,09:10   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,14:53)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 16 2008,08:39)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,08:27)
I was responding, specifically, to steve s's comment:

       
Quote
While the GOP has primarily been the home of white racists since the 60's, it wasn't a 100% complete relocation, and there are some racist Democrats.


Am I parsing that wrong? Is it not true that the message it sends is that the majority, even the vast majority, of white racists are Republicans?

Dave, Google up "Nixon southern strategy" to see the point of what Steve was getting at. In short, Louis is right (and it pains me to no end to say that).  You seem to be assuming that your limited experience with racists is typical. It is not.

I am not assuming it is typical. I am saying that more or less equating racism with the Republican party is an over simplification. There is a lot more complexity out there.

A fact no one here disagrees with.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,09:21   

Shorter version:

Steve S: Most white racists vote Rep. Some white racists vote Dem.

Heddle: I know 30 white Dem voting racists 'cos I grew up on teh meen stweets of WhiteDemRacistVille. {Insert working class credentials here}.*

Louis: Small, biased sample sizes prove fuck all. Mere assertion proves fuck all. In the greater scheme of the presidential election, and also the greater scheme of policy formulation, the "who's got more X" (where X = some undesirable agreed upon by both parties) question is a tiresome irrelevance. It is an aspect of identity politics/in-group vs out-group conflict that distracts and detracts from a reasoned consideration of the issues. If there are some corrupt, power hungry elements to government (and I think it's undeniably the case that there are) then this sort of logically fallacious crap plays into their hands by distracting from the issues and the evidence supporting (or not) policies formulated to deal with those issues. People sufficiently smart to work their way through the Dirac equation (for example), bear a responsibility not to be as fucking stupid as the mouth breathing oxygen thieves who seem to find politics to be yet another reality television programme.

Louis

*Humble Beginnings, a tiny village with no facilities that it would seem many billions of people claim to have grown up in as if this lent their insufferably asinine opinions any weight. Argumentum ad cruenam? Anyone? Bueller?

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Erasmus, FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,09:44   

pox on all thine houses

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,09:47   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 16 2008,15:44)
pox on all thine houses

I figured you'd say that.

Still isn't it nice to be using a machine you couldn't make, eating food you couldn't farm, consuming goods and facilities you can't possibly hope to provide for yourself and sneering at collective effort. Isn't there a word for that sort of thing beginning with H?

Louis

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J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,10:00   

Louis- You are making way too much sense for any of this to be useful to USA politics, where the current trend is to only listen to what the talking-head pundits (or your local preacher) tell you what to believe.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,10:25   

Quote (J-Dog @ Sep. 16 2008,16:00)
Louis- You are making way too much sense for any of this to be useful to USA politics, where the current trend is to only listen to what the talking-head pundits (or your local preacher) tell you what to believe.

Sadly it's the same here in the UK (and elsewhere). The only difference is the slight cultural variations of which talking puppet to listen to.

The utter tragedy of the failure of democracy is that we do it to ourselves. I mean WE as well, which includes ME. It is really, really hard to ignore identity politics, I fail at it sometimes, everyone does. It's really hard to ignore the chimp impulses (chimpulses?) rearing up and the hormones writhing in response to perceived out-group attack. The only trick we can manage is to realise that we are susceptible. We can't evade it, we can't be some perfect abstraction, we are history laden, culturally laden, evolved social organisms. However, we all hate being exploited, the only way we have of possibly combating exploitation is to either secede from collective effort altogether and descend to anarchy (which actually won't work for obvious reasons, cooperation has selective advantages) or shift the emphasis of our collective efforts in a more collaborative way. That shift necessarily involves a dispelling of myths about ourselves, and a reliance on the best evidence we can provide. We can't be 100% objective, but we can try to tend towards it.

That, by the way, should never detract from the wonderful diversity of humanity and our subjective desires and whims. The objectivity must apply at the level of the collective effort we make (i.e. government etc), not necessarily at the level of the individual. It is in essence the liberal and Enlightenment principles on which the USA was founded realised in their clearest form. Sadly such social and individual liberty requires certain restrictions on the markets and government, and they must be (to all intents and purposes) voluntary restrictions made in good conscience. Equally sadly, that is an utopian ideal unlikely ever to be realised, but like objectivity it can be striven towards if never totally achieved. Not only that it requires an altruistic education of and caring for the electorate, it requires that the one role of government is to remove the need for certain struggles (food, shelter, health, education, infrastructure etc). The people who elect the government must be as free as possible to do so. No system on earth has yet attempted that, let alone achieved it. We are however in progress towards it. To expect it to be done already is over optimistic to a decidedly delusional degree!

Reliance on authority and myth to achieve these utopian ideals has failed. We can't compel people to act as we might like them to, in fact the very attempt misses the point! Hence why I am an advocate of explicit social contracts and areas of the planet left to those who volunteer to be released from those contracts (crime can't do that before anyone asks, it has to be an act of capable consent, and every reasonable thing should be done to prevent an individual from desiring to give it. I don't mean i a totalitarian sense, I mean in an accommodating sense. It's also not a one way decision, it's not irrevocable. The Anabaptist/Amish idea of Rumspringa is a reasonable approximation). We are emerging from that part of our history in gradual steps. Hopefully we will fully emerge, but I have my doubts.

Oops digressed! This is why I get annoyed at the utter fatuousness of the standard approach to democratic politics. Unlike 'Ras who apparently wants to absent himself (his right, but it also forfeits his right to complain) I want better quality engagement. The status quo has not always been the status quo! It can be changed, by imperceptible degrees to be sure, but it CAN be changed. The politics of despair and apathy are not yet in a position to be comfortable. I want a world in which they are.

Louis

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Nerull



Posts: 317
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,10:53   

I would have thought the last 8 years would have woken up the "Waaaaah! They're all the same! It doesn't matter who I vote for!" bunch. How bad does it need to get?

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,11:02   

Nerull subtract your vote from the total to get a round idea of how worthless and irrelevant your input is.  That is true even assuming the manifestly false notion that there is a connection between the actions of a politician (especially at the presidential level, and I am open to the consideration that local politics could possibly operate under different dynamics).  The last 8 years have been replete with douchebaggery and fucktardation.  So were the previous 8.  The most concise summation of this phenomenon is "They are all a gang of shit-asses".

Louis says all have sinned and come short of the glory of god, whether you believe in sin or god or not.  Fundie logic false dichotomies.  Do folks less than 18 years old have the 'right' to complain?  Did blacks or women have the 'right' to complain before they were granted suffrage?  It's all bullshit.  

I tend to agree with Heddle here, I think, albeit, obliquely.  The best thing that could possibly come out of participating in the voting process is the social reinforcement of personal identity.  Perhaps that wasn't his point.  Anyway, it makes you feel good and warm and fuzzy like you are contributing and for some folks that is enough.  Clearly.  Don't worry about the rest of that stuff, just like "Love Jesus", "Cast Your Vote" is a matter of blind faith in a black box of secret machinations.  I remain bewildered at the level of blind child like faith that the social prometheans, such as Louis, put in political processes when so much hay is made of ridiculing that same apparatus in the minds of god-believers.

Louis, the word you are looking for starts with an "O", not an "H".  I think we would both agree that martyrdom is a rather stupid choice, don't you?  If, not, go crucify yourself for the Labour Party and see if anyone gives a flying rat's cunt.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,11:07   

Quote (Nerull @ Sep. 16 2008,16:53)
I would have thought the last 8 years would have woken up the "Waaaaah! They're all the same! It doesn't matter who I vote for!" bunch. How bad does it need to get?

OOOH OOOH CAN I GODWINERISE THE THREAD? CAN I? CAN I?

Ready aaaaannnnnnnnnnddddddddddddd:

NAZI!*



Thank yew, thank yew.**

Louis

*Like Yahtzee only less fun for gays, Jews, gypsies, assorted European nations, and America when they finally got round to it.

**For the ineluctably dimwitted and tragic, no not all (if any) Republicans are Nazis, yes I'm sure where you grew up there were 30 Democrat Nazis and that for you Dem = Nazi. Yes, I know Darwin had sex with a goat and produced Hitler in a satanic ritual to take over the world and save us from the Jews who killed Jesus before demonstrating the superiority of the white race by being such a nasty bloke that he is trotted out as the epitome of evil at every turn. Wait is that not just a TAD inconsistent? Oh well. It's a fucking joke anyway, not that anyone will get it. I'm wasted on you people etc etc moan blah drone waffle.***

*** This, too, is also not serious. I was serious once back in 1832. Didn't like it.

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,11:34   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 16 2008,17:02)
Nerull subtract your vote from the total to get a round idea of how worthless and irrelevant your input is.  That is true even assuming the manifestly false notion that there is a connection between the actions of a politician (especially at the presidential level, and I am open to the consideration that local politics could possibly operate under different dynamics).  The last 8 years have been replete with douchebaggery and fucktardation.  So were the previous 8.  The most concise summation of this phenomenon is "They are all a gang of shit-asses".

Louis says all have sinned and come short of the glory of god, whether you believe in sin or god or not.  Fundie logic false dichotomies.  Do folks less than 18 years old have the 'right' to complain?  Did blacks or women have the 'right' to complain before they were granted suffrage?  It's all bullshit.  

I tend to agree with Heddle here, I think, albeit, obliquely.  The best thing that could possibly come out of participating in the voting process is the social reinforcement of personal identity.  Perhaps that wasn't his point.  Anyway, it makes you feel good and warm and fuzzy like you are contributing and for some folks that is enough.  Clearly.  Don't worry about the rest of that stuff, just like "Love Jesus", "Cast Your Vote" is a matter of blind faith in a black box of secret machinations.  I remain bewildered at the level of blind child like faith that the social prometheans, such as Louis, put in political processes when so much hay is made of ridiculing that same apparatus in the minds of god-believers.

Louis, the word you are looking for starts with an "O", not an "H".  I think we would both agree that martyrdom is a rather stupid choice, don't you?  If, not, go crucify yourself for the Labour Party and see if anyone gives a flying rat's cunt.

Sorry but how does any of that address or resemble anything I said? Your straw men will avail you nothing, you should know I have no sympathy for them.

I explicitly DON'T think we have all sinned and fallen short of perfection and glory. Recognising that we are all flawed human beings capable of error is hardly the same as sin. One is a rational assessment of one's own limitations, the other is some religious idea which is basically a means of exercising political and psychological control. I think perfection and glory are unattainable nonsense. I think we can strive towards improvement, nothing more. Is a simple acknowledgement that you are fallible beyond your fragile ego?

Sadly, no, in the days of disenfranchisement, blacks and women did not have the right to complain. That is a travesty, something that has been pleasingly corrected to some degree. Let's hope it improves MORE. Sadly now, underage kids are deemed incapable of giving reasoned votes, they are explicitly disenfranchised by their (assumed) lack of reasoning ability. The rights and wrongs of that are a separate debate.

And as usual you misunderstand me, just as you misunderstood Lou. I place no faith in the mechanism of voting. I know that the value of my individual vote is infinitesimally small (if even non-zero). I am explicitly not saying "vote at all costs" or "act according to the status quo at all costs" I am saying "ENGAGE". Very different things, no faith required. Starting a revolution and tearing down the current society IS engagement. It's even engagement that I would probably support and engage in myself. (Bit of a fan of Che Guevara, not all his acts or ideas, but some of them certainly)

My points are very simple:

a) we have a political process in our society,
b) we have a system of government for that society,
c) neither the political process or system of government are (or possibly can be) perfect,
d) that government/process are corrupted in some fashion, or at least corruptible, by various vested interests (this is a natural consequence of our biology as much as anything else),
e) ignoring that government/process is a very difficult (if not impossible) option in today's world, the reach of states and corporations is enormous (whether or not I like that),
f) The only way to change this process or government is to engage (interact) with it in some fashion.

Please point out the faith based elements of the above. I have zero faith in our current political systems and governments, and by "our" I mean every different one across the globe, not merely UK/USA. What I do have some reasonable basis for thinking is that these things are mutable, i.e. they are not fixed entities, based on the evidence available to me. I'm exceptionally open to any evidence demonstrating that governments, political systems or what have you are immutable and unchanging, please provide some if this is your contention.The entire antithesis of faith you'll note.

The US (or any) government as it is now, and the political process that shapes it, have not existed since the dawn of time, carved in tablets of stone by some mythical deity. It is an evolved and evolving system. That means it can be interacted with and altered. That alteration might be as simple as voting (if one must reduce it to that) or as radical as destroying it. I make no claims about what is the best action, I simply don't know. My point is very simply that to affect the political process and government of any society one must engage with it in some fashion. That is such a trivially and obviously true point that I cannot believe the extremes of stupidity you are going to to avoid it.

The argument I had with Heddle and others is that if one is going to engage in the political process at all, doing so in an unreasoned manner opens one up to rampant exploitation. If you agree with Heddle you are defeating your own point about engagement being worthless. I agree they (politicians) ARE all shits, and that governments are pretty much all corrupt in some fashion and that the 8 years before the last 8 years before the last 8 years etc were all pretty shitty) but that situation can only be changed by rational, informed engagement. If your choice of rational, informed engagement is voting then do so on the issues, don't play identity politics and be exploited. If your choice of rational, informed engagement is to overthrow what you perceive as a tyrannical oligarchy then do so, but make sure you a) know where the enemy really is and b) have something to replace it with (even if it's only anarchy, which I can demonstrate to you will not work, sadly. Basic game theory alone demonstrates the advantages of limited cooperation, hence anarchy [like utopian perfection] isn't actually possible, varying degrees are.)

As for crucifying myself for Labour? Why on earth would I waste my time of that bunch of authoritarian hypocrites? Don't you get it yet 'Ras? I'm apolitical, I belong to no party and have no allegiance. I follow the evidence and take the time to find out about the things I care about. The problem I have is that absolutely no one represents me at all. I usually vote for whoever is going to increase science funding and move certain social things in certain directions, and I by no means always vote. Abstaining is a choice after all, although I think in the current climate it is a luxury we can ill afford. Look at the last line of my previous posts. I want a world in which voting is unnecessary, in which apathy can reign supreme, because that'll mean we got something right.

Last but not least 'Ras, if you persist in acting like Skeptic by chucking around straw men, not reading what people actually write and instead dreaming up little enemies of your own to fight with, I'll treat you like Skeptic. Got that? And further to that, if you're going to accuse me of logical fallacies etc be so good as to point them out and correct them, as opposed to doing what you are currently doing which is pulling things out of your arse.

Louis

EDITED FOR UNCLARITY AND NONCONTENT.

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Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,12:04   

*Yawn*

I know it's just me, but I think a brouhaha over whether R's or D's put out a snappier welcome wagon for white racists would have been a lot more fun. This is too high falutin' for my taste.

(Runs off to teach Astronomy, which is relatively safe.)

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,12:31   

I'm going to expand on one theme for a second:

The current (mostly capitalist, mostly ostensibly democratic) governments we have worldwide are mechanisms of control. They exist primarily to maintain certain vested interests and privileges whilst presenting the illusion of involvement by voting to their respective electorates. This effective corruption has actually become worse by virtue of ever freer trade in the less regulated markets.

When I say "corruption" I don't necessarily mean in the sense of deliberate attempts to subvert or obtain control/wealth etc. It's far more insidious than that. Corruption is a spectrum, it can be as comparatively minor as compromising on one's vote (a regrettable necessity in most of our current systems) and selecting a candidate who represents a party that is only broadly in agreement with your views. It can be as blatant and major as dynastic succession or as subtle as the tyranny of the majority or marketing biases (another reason I favour explicit social contracts and opt out/opt in societies).

Almost by their very nature any collective effort involves some form of compromise, and is thus "corrupted" in the sense I mean above, i.e. it isn't possible to hold to all ideals equally, there is some inevitable horse trading. What I desire is to get to a state where we have the maximum possible collective effort for the minimum possible compromise.

That, at least initially, involves some elements of current capitalist ideas and current democracies, though by no means all. The liberal ideas of freedom of speech, thought, and action (within certain given, consented to, limits) for example. The idea of (at least relatively) free trade and competition for another. Like it or not, just as humans have evolved so have human societies, we ignore that fact at our peril. We have to adapt to our human foibles, not bemoan them. That, in essence, is at the core of liberal politics. Sadly it often gets forgotten. (Hence why 'Ras' straw man accusation of recognising potential for error = sin misses the point by a country mile).

If we are to have societies at all, and they are (again perhaps sadly) an unavoidable aspect of our biology, then we can act to make those societies at least a little more congenial to our needs. How we do that, the mechanisms we use to do that, is basically politics. How we operate them is basically government, be that kibbutz, communism, monarchy, democracy or whatever. Whether or not we like it, if one is born today (or indeed at any point in the last few hundred years) one is very very unlikely to have been born somewhere where there isn't a government, a society, a political process. It is like water to a fish, some fish evolved to walk on land and left the water behind, but many have not and if you are born a fish, chances are you are currently wet! (we can argue about the utterly inappropriate nature of that analogy later!) We are not yet at a position where we can leave the water. Whether we ever will be is an open question certainly not one I (or anyone) can yet answer.

So what choices do we have ahead of us, born as we are into a seething sea of politics and government? We can absent ourselves (something I personally favour quite strongly) or we can engage. If we absent ourselves then we have no possible way of influencing that sea of politics or that system of government.

I really do think this should be a viable option for people. I really do think that there should be a section of the planet/country/whatever devoted to people who wish to absent themselves from a global society, one that that society was prevented from interfering with in any way. I really do think that people should be able to leave a society and return based on a social contract. I.e. these are the rules, whilst here you follow them or else these are the consequences. There are, of course, various nuances to this. I really think that those rules should be mutable, changeable, influenced by the people who choose to follow them. And I really, really do think that the opportunity to influence them should be based on ability, not on age, sex, race, religion etc etc etc. Like a "voting licence" if you will.

All the while the collective effort of the society goes into maintaining certain aspects of it. Transport, health care, education. Etc. I don't need the government to tell me who to love or what to wear or what to think, I need the government to do the things I cannot do, like build roads, provide trains, make schools and hospitals. I really, really, really don't think that governing should be a job which gives prestige or privilege, and I really disagree with the party political model. Someone who governs should have no possible personal gain from governing, certainly nothing that could be gained after they leave office. Governors should be administrators and people who present ideas to the electorate, not anything else. There are various ways of selecting governors based on merit that can help work towards this. Voting for candidates alone is not necessarily the best way forward, nor, necessarily, is anonymous voting on every tiny issue. There are things to be worked out.

The changes required to implement this are AWESOME. It requires control of markets for starters (at least initially), something libertarians and free marketeers will howl at. It requires huge personal freedoms (something social conservatives will howl at), it requires an understanding of personal responsibility and autonomy (something certain liberal/left wing groups will howl at), it requires the minimum mount of government (something that certain other left wing groups with howl at), and above all it requires some work and sacrifice (something we will all howl at).

All of this really makes one (ok two, ok several) points:

1) Political/governmental perfection is an unattainable abstraction. We can all envisage ways to improve the status quo, but until we question all out assumptions about that status quo, we can't really expect it to change in the ways we/I/you might like.

2) Engagement with a political system in some fashion is the only possible way we can affect it. Not interacting with it by definition precludes us from affecting it (and I count setting up utopia on its borders as interaction!).

3) The nature and extent of that engagement is mostly debatable, but what isn't debatable is that if we wish to influence that political system the best way to do so is via some reasoned process. Simply appealing to prejudices or nodding along with a pundit does indeed affect the system but it perpetuates the type of tyranny and corruption I mentioned at the beginning. It is especially open to exploitation.

4) Every engagement is open to exploitation but not every engagement is equally open to exploitation. Experimenting with methods of engagement is our current state. We know several methods of engagement that do not work for the majority of societies on this planet, ergo they are not optimal solutions for achieving our stated goal of change.

Clearer?

Louis

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,12:33   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,18:04)
*Yawn*

I know it's just me, but I think a brouhaha over whether R's or D's put out a snappier welcome wagon for white racists would have been a lot more fun. This is too high falutin' for my taste.

(Runs off to teach Astronomy, which is relatively safe.)

Translation from Heddlese:

"I was wrong but I lack the balls to admit it."

Such an intellectual you are!

Louis

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Bye.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,12:44   

I think the distinction between Republicans who oppose Obama because of race and those who oppose him for political reasons is moot in this election.

What matters for the election is whether Democrats will withhold their vote for Obama, or whether they will decide to vote for a Republican who has long been a pariah to conservatives.

I personally think it's going to be another squeeker.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,12:52   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 16 2008,07:21)
Louis: Small, biased sample sizes prove fuck all. Mere assertion proves fuck all.

The saying Louis wants here is "the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'."

(Added in edit: something Heddle would have known automatically if it pertained to physics or astronomy.)

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,13:02   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 16 2008,18:52)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 16 2008,07:21)
Louis: Small, biased sample sizes prove fuck all. Mere assertion proves fuck all.

The saying Louis wants here is "the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'."

(Added in edit: something Heddle would have known automatically if it pertained to physics or astronomy.)

It's a saying I know well, I was being specific! ;-)

Louis

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Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,13:03   

If anyone wants to see more of Heddle acting like this, check out Dispatches from the Culture Wars. It's weird.

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,13:11   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 16 2008,19:03)
If anyone wants to see more of Heddle acting like this, check out Dispatches from the Culture Wars. It's weird.

Anyone who's been to Talk Origins will know Heddle well from those years.*

Louis

*At least I think it was TO. I mean that's where all this started right? Before TO atheists and believers, evolutionists and creationist danced in the streets and made love under the moonlight. After all, PT is an outgrowth of TO, AtBC is an outgrowth of PT and Heddle is an outgrowth of some muppet's left nut.

ETA: Heddle was, is, and will likely remain an enigma to me. Talk physics with him and he is eminently sensible, knowledgeable, educated and intelligent. Talk about politics and religion with him, or cosmo-ID and he is a fruitcake. Just goes to show what religion can do to an otherwise perfectly adequate mind.

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Bye.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,13:18   

I just walked back from lunch at our student union, and want to report on what I think is a promising development. The Intervarsity Christian Fellowship, a fairly evangelical bunch, has a booth on the plaza outside the union. They have a large white board entitled "How would Jesus vote?" You can put a sticker on the side labeled Obama, or the side labeled McCain.

The Obama side, even on this fairly conservative campus in a fairly conservative state, had about 3 times as many stickers as the McCain side.

Whaddya think, FtK?  Maybe I'll discuss religion with you for once. How would Jesus vote?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,13:19   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 16 2008,19:18)
I just walked back from lunch at our student union, and want to report on what I think is a promising development. The Intervarsity Christian Fellowship, a fairly evangelical bunch, has a booth on the plaza outside the union. They have a large white board entitled "How would Jesus vote?" You can put a sticker on the side labeled Obama, or the side labeled McCain.

The Obama side, even on this fairly conservative campus in a fairly conservative state, had about 3 times as many stickers as the McCain side.

Whaddya think, FtK?  Maybe I'll discuss religion with you for once. How would Jesus vote?

You owe me a new arse. I just fell off my chair laughing.

Louis

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Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,13:20   

Yeah, but these last few days....

All I know is I'm staying out of it.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,13:22   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 16 2008,14:18)
They have a large white board entitled "How would Jesus vote?"

Well, see, I liked Jesus, but then I saw some disturbing YouTube videos. Apparently years ago he had some friends who were whores, theives, lepers, and murderers, so that's really got me scared about his character....

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,13:24   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 16 2008,12:33)
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,18:04)
*Yawn*

I know it's just me, but I think a brouhaha over whether R's or D's put out a snappier welcome wagon for white racists would have been a lot more fun. This is too high falutin' for my taste.

(Runs off to teach Astronomy, which is relatively safe.)

Translation from Heddlese:

"I was wrong but I lack the balls to admit it."

Such an intellectual you are!

Louis

Translation from Louis-ese (Louise?):

I declare victory!

Such an intellectual you are!

Gosh Louis you can be a tight ass. Lighten up.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,13:28   

Quote (Nerull @ Sep. 16 2008,08:53)
I would have thought the last 8 years would have woken up the "Waaaaah! They're all the same! It doesn't matter who I vote for!" bunch. How bad does it need to get?

I don't see it changing at all. I still hear it from Naderites. It seems to basically boil down to "none of the political parties are perfect or make me happy, so they're all the same". And this comes from people who can reason well when other subjects are under discussion.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,13:29   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 16 2008,11:19)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 16 2008,19:18)
I just walked back from lunch at our student union, and want to report on what I think is a promising development. The Intervarsity Christian Fellowship, a fairly evangelical bunch, has a booth on the plaza outside the union. They have a large white board entitled "How would Jesus vote?" You can put a sticker on the side labeled Obama, or the side labeled McCain.

The Obama side, even on this fairly conservative campus in a fairly conservative state, had about 3 times as many stickers as the McCain side.

Whaddya think, FtK?  Maybe I'll discuss religion with you for once. How would Jesus vote?

You owe me a new arse.

He couldn't afford one of the size you're used to.

I mean. The hauling alone...

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,13:54   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 16 2008,13:28)
Quote (Nerull @ Sep. 16 2008,08:53)
I would have thought the last 8 years would have woken up the "Waaaaah! They're all the same! It doesn't matter who I vote for!" bunch. How bad does it need to get?

I don't see it changing at all. I still hear it from Naderites. It seems to basically boil down to "none of the political parties are perfect or make me happy, so they're all the same". And this comes from people who can reason well when other subjects are under discussion.

That pretty much excludes politics and religion.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,14:00   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 16 2008,13:19)
You owe me a new arse. I just fell off my chair laughing.

Louis

Sorry. Since the Lend-Lease Act expired, we are not allowed to send arses, even used ones like RTH, to the UK.

That's why we have such a buildup over here...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,14:10   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,19:24)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 16 2008,12:33)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,18:04)
*Yawn*

I know it's just me, but I think a brouhaha over whether R's or D's put out a snappier welcome wagon for white racists would have been a lot more fun. This is too high falutin' for my taste.

(Runs off to teach Astronomy, which is relatively safe.)

Translation from Heddlese:

"I was wrong but I lack the balls to admit it."

Such an intellectual you are!

Louis

Translation from Louis-ese (Louise?):

I declare victory!

Such an intellectual you are!

Gosh Louis you can be a tight ass. Lighten up.

Are you familiar with the quaint English phrase: "taking the piss"?

I was.

Anyway, I made and make no mention of victory. You might have noticed before I've made a few comments about "victory" of any kind not being the point. I'd expect you to have missed them though.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,14:19   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 16 2008,12:00)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 16 2008,13:19)
You owe me a new arse. I just fell off my chair laughing.

Louis

Sorry. Since the Lend-Lease Act expired, we are not allowed to send arses, even used ones like RTH, to the UK.

That's why we have such a buildup over here...

Besides, Louis has said he can't be arsed, so he'll just have to make do.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,14:59   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 16 2008,14:10)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,19:24)
   
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 16 2008,12:33)
     
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 16 2008,18:04)
*Yawn*

I know it's just me, but I think a brouhaha over whether R's or D's put out a snappier welcome wagon for white racists would have been a lot more fun. This is too high falutin' for my taste.

(Runs off to teach Astronomy, which is relatively safe.)

Translation from Heddlese:

"I was wrong but I lack the balls to admit it."

Such an intellectual you are!

Louis

Translation from Louis-ese (Louise?):

I declare victory!

Such an intellectual you are!

Gosh Louis you can be a tight ass. Lighten up.

Are you familiar with the quaint English phrase: "taking the piss"?

I was.

Anyway, I made and make no mention of victory. You might have noticed before I've made a few comments about "victory" of any kind not being the point. I'd expect you to have missed them though.

Louis

And I made no mention of anything like "I was wrong but lack the balls to admit it." I thought the whole point of the "translation" gimmick was to point out what we actually "said", even though we didn't say it.

But, what-ever floats your boat.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,16:41   

I've seen libertarians and Naderites claim that Gore would have invaded Iraq if he'd been elected, and that this therefore proves both the parties are the same.

Sorry, once you accept hypotheticals as 'proof', you're off in la la land.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2008,22:51   

To bring this slightly back to topic, erasmus is kinda reminding me of Ray Martinez, T Pagano, and others of their ilk over at talk.origins. Asked for, challenged on, and finally called on the carpet for not providing an actual *point* (other than "Everything said by persons other than myself is wrong."), or *suggestion* (other than "Give up."), they simply repeat the same show-stopper. For Ray Martinez it's something like "mockery = inability to refute"; for erasmus, it's out of context Shakespeare. It really is pointless to use any aspect of reality to argue with ones so happily walled-in, as they are utterly sure that the bricks they gaze upon represent true enlightenment.

erasmus compares those arguing with erasmus here to creationists, while using card after card from the creationist deck.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2008,09:32   

I think 50 years from now the intervention in Kosovo, done entirely without U.N. sanction, will have more consequences than the war in Iraq. We will see this as Russia continues to rebuild the Soviet empire.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2561
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2008,10:17   

I'm not sure Kosovo had much to do with that - it's more the character of the Russian Prime Minister/Puppeteer.

I actually saw Putin once a few years ago, when I was cycling home from work.  He was being driven through Munkkiniemi on the was from A to B.  It's odd - he was just a small guy in a big car.

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2008,10:30   

Oh, I don't think Kosovo has anything to do with Russian ambitions, but it serves as an example of "protecting" people by separating them from a bullying soverign nation.

Lots of opportunities available.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2008,10:40   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Sep. 17 2008,10:17)
I'm not sure Kosovo had much to do with that - it's more the character of the Russian Prime Minister/Puppeteer.

I actually saw Putin once a few years ago, when I was cycling home from work.  He was being driven through Munkkiniemi on the was from A to B.  It's odd - he was just a small guy in a big car.

Over-compensating perhaps?

Like Napoleon was too short?

George W Bush is too small and feeble?

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2008,18:57   

Uh Oh. Palin uses the dreaded Caps lock button. That's never a good sign:

Quote
Gawker has posted a few screen shots of the messages found in Palin's account; they reveal nothing damaging about Palin, other than that she has a penchant for typing in ALL CAPS when exercised. ("Does he want someone OPPOSED to the life issue in Congress?" Palin wrote to Lieutenant Gov. Sean Parnell.)


http://www.slate.com/id/2200359/

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,13:42   

Given how many Ron Paul signs I *still* see out in rural California, this is pretty impressive.

Mmhmm. And McCain's a 'straight talking maverick'.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,13:45   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 18 2008,00:57)
Uh Oh. Palin uses the dreaded Caps lock button. That's never a good sign:

Quote
Gawker has posted a few screen shots of the messages found in Palin's account; they reveal nothing damaging about Palin, other than that she has a penchant for typing in ALL CAPS when exercised. ("Does he want someone OPPOSED to the life issue in Congress?" Palin wrote to Lieutenant Gov. Sean Parnell.)


http://www.slate.com/id/2200359/

And WHAT might I ASK is wrong with the JUDICIOUS use of the CAPS LOCK button?

Obviously this means that I am more like Palin than I though, therefore I should vote for her 'cos she's just a good ol' girl etc.

USA USA USA!!!!!!

Louis

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Bye.

  
drew91



Posts: 32
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,14:22   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 19 2008,13:45)


Obviously this means that I am more like Palin than I though, therefore I should vote for her 'cos she's just a good ol' girl etc.

I bet you've been buying red patent-leather shoes and glasses like crazy too. :p

Sales Soar For Shoes, Glasses Like Sarah Palin's

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,14:28   

Quote (drew91 @ Sep. 19 2008,20:22)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 19 2008,13:45)


Obviously this means that I am more like Palin than I though, therefore I should vote for her 'cos she's just a good ol' girl etc.

I bet you've been buying red patent-leather shoes and glasses like crazy too. :p

Sales Soar For Shoes, Glasses Like Sarah Palin's

DAMN!!!! Busted!

Louis

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,17:44   

Our Heddle is getting testy chez Brayton:

 
Quote
mark duran (and others),
 
Quote
Also I have read that many christian fundamentalists believe that the sooner we detroy this planet the sooner Jesus will come back...God bless us everyone...

This is representative of a tiresome canard. While you can always find an isolated nut that holds any lunatic fringe position imaginable, fundamentalists do not, in general, have an attitude of "let's destroy the planet so that Jesus comes soon" or "who cares about pollution, Jesus will clean up the planet" or "I want to be VP so I can start a war with Russia to initiate the onset of the rapture."
It pisses me off to have to defend fundies and the Left Behinders, because I think their theology is wrong. So for crying out loud, think before you write something so mind numbingly implausible. Going through life assuming everyone who thinks differently from you must be an idiot is, well, idiotic.
Posted by: heddle | September 19, 2008 3:27 PM


Once again, I think Heddle is arguing that because *he* doesn't believe something, then of course almost no Christians believe it.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,18:09   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 19 2008,23:44)
Our Heddle is getting testy chez Brayton:

   
Quote
mark duran (and others),
   
Quote
Also I have read that many christian fundamentalists believe that the sooner we detroy this planet the sooner Jesus will come back...God bless us everyone...

This is representative of a tiresome canard. While you can always find an isolated nut that holds any lunatic fringe position imaginable, fundamentalists do not, in general, have an attitude of "let's destroy the planet so that Jesus comes soon" or "who cares about pollution, Jesus will clean up the planet" or "I want to be VP so I can start a war with Russia to initiate the onset of the rapture."
It pisses me off to have to defend fundies and the Left Behinders, because I think their theology is wrong. So for crying out loud, think before you write something so mind numbingly implausible. Going through life assuming everyone who thinks differently from you must be an idiot is, well, idiotic.
Posted by: heddle | September 19, 2008 3:27 PM


Once again, I think Heddle is arguing that because *he* doesn't believe something, then of course almost no Christians believe it.

But we all know that Heddle and god play racketball on Sundays. He is, after all, the calvinist version of Metatron.

Louis

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J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,19:08   

But we all know that Heddle and god play racketball on Sundays. He is, after all, the calvinist version of Metatron.

Louis[/quote]
I got news for heddle... god cheats.

Of course, since Heddle is a Calvinist, he's only getting what he deserves.

Ba-Dum- Ching!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2008,04:44   

Quote (J-Dog @ Sep. 20 2008,01:08)
But we all know that Heddle and god play racketball on Sundays. He is, after all, the calvinist version of Metatron.

Louis[/quote]
I got news for heddle... god cheats.

Of course, since Heddle is a Calvinist, he's only getting what he deserves.

Ba-Dum- Ching!

J-Dog, I have a question or two for you:

Are you here all week? Should I have the veal or the fish? My waitress, does she need tipping?

Louis

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Bye.

  
J-Dog



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Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2008,09:52   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 20 2008,04:44)
 
Quote (J-Dog @ Sep. 20 2008,01:08)
But we all know that Heddle and god play racketball on Sundays. He is, after all, the calvinist version of Metatron.

Louis

I got news for heddle... god cheats.

Of course, since Heddle is a Calvinist, he's only getting what he deserves.

Ba-Dum- Ching!

J-Dog, I have a question or two for you:

Are you here all week? Should I have the veal or the fish? My waitress, does she need tipping?

Louis[/quote]

To answer your questions, I have evaluated all the evidence, and I believe that the answer you are looking for is:
1.) Yes
2.) tHE VEAL
3.) Yes.
However, I think that you should also keep in mind that the Pope is Catholic.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
dheddle



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2008,13:17   

Quote (J-Dog @ Sep. 19 2008,19:08)
Of course, since Heddle is a Calvinist, he's only getting what he deserves.

Ba-Dum- Ching!

No, no, no! That's 180 degrees off! The point of Calvinism is that some (the elect) get what they don't deserve.

Edit: typo. Too bad Biden doesn't have this feature.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2008,16:54   

Somewhat topical, from Science:

Quote
WASHINGTON, D.C.--Next year's federal budget may not contain a penny more for research and education if Republican Senator John McCain (AZ) is elected U.S. president and has his way with Congress. An aide to the McCain campaign delivered that sober fiscal message today to science lobbyists, who pressed him unsuccessfully for leeway in the candidate's promise to curb federal spending by imposing a 1-year freeze on domestic discretionary spending.

"The purpose of the freeze is to evaluate each and every program, looking at which ones are worthwhile and which are a waste of taxpayer dollars," Ike Brannon, an economist and senior policy adviser to McCain, told the Task Force on the Future of American Innovation at a private gathering in Washington, D.C. The task force, a coalition of scientific and professional societies, had heard a more upbeat message in July from aides for Democratic Senator Barack Obama (IL), who has proposed doubling over 10 years the budgets of a host of U.S. science agencies.


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2008,17:58   

Being a strictly non-partisan kind of guy, I think it is likely that the mortgage bailout will drain every available dollar from the federal budget for several years, effectively rendering presidential policy moot.

We did this once before, in the 80s.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2008,20:17   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 20 2008,11:17)
Quote (J-Dog @ Sep. 19 2008,19:08)
Of course, since Heddle is a Calvinist, he's only getting what he deserves.

Ba-Dum- Ching!

No, no, no! That's 180 degrees off! The point of Calvinism is that some (the elect) get what they don't deserve.

Goddamn. Calvinism is weirder than I thought.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2008,20:20   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,14:54)
Somewhat topical, from Science:

   
Quote
WASHINGTON, D.C.--Next year's federal budget may not contain a penny more for research and education if Republican Senator John McCain (AZ) is elected U.S. president and has his way with Congress. An aide to the McCain campaign delivered that sober fiscal message today to science lobbyists, who pressed him unsuccessfully for leeway in the candidate's promise to curb federal spending by imposing a 1-year freeze on domestic discretionary spending.

"The purpose of the freeze is to evaluate each and every program, looking at which ones are worthwhile and which are a waste of taxpayer dollars," Ike Brannon, an economist and senior policy adviser to McCain, told the Task Force on the Future of American Innovation at a private gathering in Washington, D.C. The task force, a coalition of scientific and professional societies, had heard a more upbeat message in July from aides for Democratic Senator Barack Obama (IL), who has proposed doubling over 10 years the budgets of a host of U.S. science agencies.

But McCain's a resourceful guy. Somewhere behind some sofa cushions somewhere he'll find the money to spend another hundred years in Iraq and bomb Iran.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2008,20:25   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 20 2008,21:17)
Goddamn. Calvinism is weirder than I thought.

Trust me. You're better off not knowing.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2008,23:16   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6_A_Eck3cU

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,07:18   

Palin talks like O'Leary Writes...

Pundit On Palin

...and that's not so good.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,05:20   

Today's Sinfest:



Louis

ETA hyperlink

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Bye.

  
Assassinator



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,05:34   

I just have to share this cool Article from Cracked.com. It really suits the kind of discussion wich is being held here, and ofcourse how the subject itself actually is. I bet that most of you know this stuff already, but cracked.com always pens it down so good ;)

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,07:28   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 20 2008,17:58)
Being a strictly non-partisan kind of guy, I think it is likely that the mortgage bailout will drain every available dollar from the federal budget for several years, effectively rendering presidential policy moot.

We did this once before, in the 80s.

Late 80s to early 90s. We deregulated the Savings and Loan business in the 80s, and half of them promptly went tango-uniform. The government was forced to step in with bailout $$ and the Resolution Trust Corporation to prevent a financial melt-down. President was a guy named 'Bush'. Any of this sound familiar?

The cost of the bailout forced Bush to raise taxes, thereby violating his campaign promise to do no such thing ("read my lips") and so angering the Republican base that their already lukewarm support of him dried up, allowing Clinton to deny him re-election in 1992.

Bush Sr.'s status as a "one-termer" status puts him on a par with Jimmy Carter and Herbert Hoover. The shame, the shame! Bush Jr's presidency is largely about redeeming the family honor. It's all about Daddy.

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Arden Chatfield



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,09:12   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 20 2008,15:58)
I think it is likely that the mortgage bailout will drain every available dollar from the federal budget for several years,

I thought that was already the case. The US has been living on China's credit for 7 years. It's just a matter of whether our deficit is a trillion dollars versus several trillion.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
midwifetoad



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,09:36   

Quote
Late 80s to early 90s. We deregulated the Savings and Loan business in the 80s, and half of them promptly went tango-uniform. The government was forced to step in with bailout $$ and the Resolution Trust Corporation to prevent a financial melt-down. President was a guy named 'Bush'. Any of this sound familiar?

I was working in the mortgage industry and remember it somewhat differently. Mortgage interest rates went from 9 percent in 1978 to nearly 18 percent in 1982. All kinds of tricks were invented to enable people to buy houses. ARM loans, which quickly rose to market rate, and something called a Graduated Payment Mortgage, in which the first year's payment didn't even cover interest. People found themselves, after three years owing more than they had borrowed, and monthly payments twice what they had started at.

Foreclosures skyrocketed in the early to mid 1980s. At the time I was working on mortgage software, Bank of America had at least 150 people working on foreclosures. That's just people using the software I helped write.

The economy killer was interest rates. From 1984 to 1992, mortgage interest rates fell from 14 percent to about 8 percent.

http://www.freddiemac.com/pmms/pmms30.htm

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
PTET



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,10:30   

There's no mention of evolution, but I've got a bit of video up of Jack Van Impe talking about Sarah Palin and World War III.

Don't worry too much... The War isn't going to start until *after* the Rapture, apparently.

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"It’s not worth the effort to prove the obvious. Ridiculous ideas don’t deserve our time.
Even the attempt to formulate ID is a generous accommodation." - ScottAndrews

   
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:53   

Somewhat off-topic, Palin has one of the ugliest accents I've heard in a long time. Where the hell'd she get it? Is this a normal accent for white people in Alaska?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
PTET



Posts: 133
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,13:13   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 25 2008,12:53)
Somewhat off-topic, Palin has one of the ugliest accents I've heard in a long time. Where the hell'd she get it? Is this a normal accent for white people in Alaska?

I reckon Palin is playing up the homely-hic chic with her accent - especially when she gets out of her depth in interviews/speaking. Which means "normally".

Did you read that the morons at NRO are apparently calling for McCain to let Palin take his place in debates with Obama? That I would *pay* to see.

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"It’s not worth the effort to prove the obvious. Ridiculous ideas don’t deserve our time.
Even the attempt to formulate ID is a generous accommodation." - ScottAndrews

   
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,13:23   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 25 2008,09:36)
               
Quote
Late 80s to early 90s. We deregulated the Savings and Loan business in the 80s, and half of them promptly went tango-uniform. The government was forced to step in with bailout $$ and the Resolution Trust Corporation to prevent a financial melt-down. President was a guy named 'Bush'. Any of this sound familiar?

I was working in the mortgage industry and remember it somewhat differently. Mortgage interest rates went from 9 percent in 1978 to nearly 18 percent in 1982. All kinds of tricks were invented to enable people to buy houses. ARM loans, which quickly rose to market rate, and something called a Graduated Payment Mortgage, in which the first year's payment didn't even cover interest. People found themselves, after three years owing more than they had borrowed, and monthly payments twice what they had started at.

Foreclosures skyrocketed in the early to mid 1980s. At the time I was working on mortgage software, Bank of America had at least 150 people working on foreclosures. That's just people using the software I helped write.

The economy killer was interest rates. From 1984 to 1992, mortgage interest rates fell from 14 percent to about 8 percent.

http://www.freddiemac.com/pmms/pmms30.htm

Well, I can't claim to any expertise in the mortgage industry, but I believe my history was correct. The RTC was created in 1989 in response to the S&L crisis of the late 1980s. The RTC took over more than 700 failed thrifts by the mid 90s; the FSLIC took over several hundred others. These events post-date the ones you mention (which no doubt contributed to the crisis).

For investors and depositors who had their life savings tied up in these institutions, the impacts were devastating. In many cases the private insurance the S&Ls carried was not enough to cover the losses and the depostiors simply lost their savings, or were returned pennies on the dollar (until the government stepped in). The collapse of Old Court Savings and Loan, here in Maryland, was memorably devastating. Some small satisfaction could be gained by seeing its president, Jeffry Levitt, hauled off to prison for fraud. The same could not be said for the consequences suffered by Neil Bush (funny how that Bush name just keeps on turning up, doesn't it?!), who was director of the Silverado S&L when it went belly-up in 1988 to the tune of $1.3B taxpayer dollars (I think he paid a $50k fine for fiduciary irresponsibility), or for Senator John McCain, who, as a member of the Keating Five, was cleared of wrongdoing in that influence-peddling scandal by the Senate Ethics Committee, receiving only a hand-slap for poor judgment.

George Bush never quite lived down that "read my lips; no new taxes" pledge that he made in 1988 and broke in 1990. It surely helped to cost him the election in 1992. However, the tax increases he agreed to, as well as the pay-as-you-go federal budget processes he helped enact, eventually led the country from annual deficits to annual surpluses (at least, in the last three Clinton budgets). Ahh, the good old days.

And now, back to the thread topic...

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,13:57   

RTC may have been created in 1989, but the damage was done by high interest rates and bad loans made a decade earlier. It takes years for people to default on mortgages when the default is due to creeping payments, and it can take years to foreclose on loans after default.

The costs associated with foreclosure, coupled with huge numbers of properties that had to be liquidated quickly at less than the value of the note, did in the savings and loans.

This cycle will repeat every time government policy makes loans available to vast numbers of people who will be unable to repay them. The current mess is exacerbated by loans made that exceed the market value of the property. This is a fact regardless of who deserves the blame. I suspect there is more than enough to go around.

The disastrous economy and high interest rates that made Carter a one-term president were the result of paying for the Vietnam War. Again, it often takes a decade or more for policy decisions to result in a national crisis.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,14:28   

Lauren Upton wants to be our next Vice-President.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,18:43   

Quote (dogdidit @ Sep. 25 2008,05:28)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 20 2008,17:58)
Being a strictly non-partisan kind of guy, I think it is likely that the mortgage bailout will drain every available dollar from the federal budget for several years, effectively rendering presidential policy moot.

We did this once before, in the 80s.

Late 80s to early 90s. We deregulated the Savings and Loan business in the 80s, and half of them promptly went tango-uniform. The government was forced to step in with bailout $$ and the Resolution Trust Corporation to prevent a financial melt-down. President was a guy named 'Bush'. Any of this sound familiar?

The cost of the bailout forced Bush to raise taxes, thereby violating his campaign promise to do no such thing ("read my lips") and so angering the Republican base that their already lukewarm support of him dried up, allowing Clinton to deny him re-election in 1992.

Bush Sr.'s status as a "one-termer" status puts him on a par with Jimmy Carter and Herbert Hoover. The shame, the shame! Bush Jr's presidency is largely about redeeming the family honor. It's all about Daddy.

Neil Bush (the more stupider one) managed to get his ass bailed out and avoid jail. John McCain was also one of the Keating 5. Of the K5 whores, McSame was the closest personal manfriend of Charles Keating.

(Oh, I see that this was covered much more better by earlier posts. Never mind).

Edited by Dr.GH on Sep. 25 2008,16:47

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,18:56   

Directly relevant to the topic.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,19:09   

Quote
Neil Bush (the more stupider one) managed to get his ass bailed out and avoid jail. John McCain was also one of the Keating 5. Of the K5 whores, McSame was the closest personal manfriend of Charles Keating.


Quote
After a lengthy investigation, the Senate Ethics Committee determined in 1991 that Alan Cranston, Dennis DeConcini, and Donald Riegle had substantially and improperly interfered with the FHLBB in its investigation of Lincoln Savings. Senators John Glenn and John McCain were cleared of having acted improperly but were criticized for having exercised "poor judgment".


Why all the selective reporting?  By the way, I find this amusing:

Quote
After 1999, the only member of the Keating Five remaining in the U.S. Senate was John McCain, who had an easier time gaining re-election in 1992 than he anticipated,[46] and who ran for president in 2000 and became the Republican presidential nominee in 2008. McCain survived the political scandal in part by becoming friendly with the political press.[46]


Not that the press is ever biased or anything.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,19:43   

She's even bad at repeating her memorized answers.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,08:29   

Once again, the MSM twists things to distort their meaning.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,09:11   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 25 2008,13:57)
RTC may have been created in 1989, but the damage was done by high interest rates and bad loans made a decade earlier. It takes years for people to default on mortgages when the default is due to creeping payments, and it can take years to foreclose on loans after default.

The costs associated with foreclosure, coupled with huge numbers of properties that had to be liquidated quickly at less than the value of the note, did in the savings and loans.

This cycle will repeat every time government policy makes loans available to vast numbers of people who will be unable to repay them. The current mess is exacerbated by loans made that exceed the market value of the property. This is a fact regardless of who deserves the blame. I suspect there is more than enough to go around.

Fair E Nuff, but your original post referred to the impact on the federal budget, which became an issue when the RTC was formed and funded in 1989 to take over the failing thrifts:
Quote
Being a strictly non-partisan kind of guy, I think it is likely that the mortgage bailout will drain every available dollar from the federal budget for several years, effectively rendering presidential policy moot.

What available dollars? The S&L debacle of the 80s/90s eventually cost the taxpayers somewhere around $125B, and the upfront costs were enough to prompt the Republican president to raise taxes (at a considerable cost to his political career, I might add...but then George Sr always placed service before self-interest, a habit of mind that he failed to instill in his sons). This time around the upfront costs look to be more like ONE TRILLION DOLLARS

and no evidence so far that the Republican president's son has any intention of raising taxes. In fact, he remains dedicated to making permanent the cuts he enacted or are on the way; most importantly, the elimination of the inheritance tax in 2010. Just because our children are to inherit a crushing burden of debt does not mean that his children are. Or John McCain's.

Does he think that we can get there by cutting discretionary funding? Freezing the science budget? Gee, we could whack the financing for NPR; $200M down, $999,800M to go!

Perhaps it's too much to expect a lame duck president to do anything, but his presumptive Republican replacement isn't showing us anything different. Even as he air-drops himself into the bailout fray (though parachute rides ought to be something he avoids), McCain continues to self-identify as a de-regulator and tax-cutter. Not exactly the temperament one needs given that the problem was caused by lack of regulation and oversight, and whose solution will inevitably require new taxes. New taxes were going to be required anyhow, to pay for the unfunded liabilities of Social Security, and Medicare. And the cost of the War in Iran Iraq. Read my lips.

And what are we to make of his poor judgment (the Senate Ethics Committee's words, not mine) he displayed in the last bank crisis? "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment"?? Perhaps, but I also believe "past performance is a reliable predictor of future behaviour". I'm just sayin'.

Quote
The disastrous economy and high interest rates that made Carter a one-term president were the result of paying for the Vietnam War. Again, it often takes a decade or more for policy decisions to result in a national crisis

Don't overlook the 1970s oil shock. Or the Teheran embassy hostage crisis (which locked Carter in the WHite House, effectively denying him the ability to campaign). JMHO but had Desert One led to a successful raid (Entebbe-like), Carter would have been re-elected in 1980.

Don't get me wrong, mwt. I'm a registered Republican. I voted for Reagan in 1980. I read Jude Wanniski, and supply-side economics, and A Time For Truth. I am not playing partisan politics here. I am just noting that we are well and truly screwed. The last thing we need is leadership dedicated to screwing us in even further.

Sorry, all, for the huge OT post. Time for a trip to the loo, Lou?

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
midwifetoad



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,09:33   

I think it is a widely held opinion that money will be tight for the next administration, regardless of who wins. I doubt if any party not contemplating suicide will raise taxes significantly.

I have been registered as an Independent since my first vote in 1972. I voted for McGovern. It's about the only vote I've cast with any enthusiasm. I fully understand the enthusiasm for Obama, but I don't share it. I think a Hillary/Obama ticket would have been unbeatable. At the moment I wouldn't bet on Obama, even though today's polls have him ahead.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,09:50   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2008,07:33)
I think it is a widely held opinion that money will be tight for the next administration, regardless of who wins. I doubt if any party not contemplating suicide will raise taxes significantly.

Not necessarily. Obama's campaigned from the beginning saying that he'd raise taxes on the wealthiest people, and he's still been ahead of McCain most of the last 4 months.

Considering that the deficit is about to double to close to a trillion dollars, I think even some Republicans realize that spending on credit forever just might be risky. Of course, plenty of other GOPers won't see a problem with putting a new Iran war on our Chinese Express card.

Gutting government services the way the Norquist crowd fantasizes about would be suicide for the GOP. And those same people never favor big military spending cuts. So their position isn't tenable.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,10:07   

Taxing the rich is the Democrats' equivalent of the NRA and Right to Life.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,10:37   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2008,08:07)
Taxing the rich is the Democrats' equivalent of the NRA and Right to Life.

Your point being?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,10:50   

Campaign rhetoric.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,10:54   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2008,16:07)
Taxing the rich is the Democrats' equivalent of the NRA and Right to Life.

Now even I wouldn't go that far! I'd even go as far as to call "bullshit!".

An affordable, incremental tax system hardly equates to the irrationality underpinning the two organisations you mentioned. That sort of rhetoric is a hair's breadth from claiming climate change to be a leftist conspiracy to increase taxes and government control. Look beyond your borders where taxes can be high(er) without the sort of juvenile envy of the rich you imply motivates them.

This doesn't for a second mean that a) I don't realise the "tax those rich bastards" rhetoric occasionally prevalent amongst certain "left" leaning groups exists (it does, and it's stupid), nor b) in a capitalist society there is some inevitable trade off between taxation and entrepreneurial encouragement.

Hasn't the last 100 or so years convinced anyone yet that the freer elements of free market, laissez-faire capitalism simply doesn't work? Greater control, however unpleasant such a prospect might be, is a necessary component of the market. That applies to tax as much as it does to curbing the excesses of corporations.

And I speak as someone paying the highest rate of tax in the UK (and paying it willingly) and for whom greater than 50% of their salary is taxed at this rate. (Which logically doesn't count for much, but I thought I'd pre-empt the inevitable)

Louis

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Bye.

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,11:01   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2008,16:50)
Campaign rhetoric.

There's something about this whole "rhetoric balancing act" I just don't get. Of course there is rhetorical bullshit flung left and right in any political campaign, but isn't the point to see through it to the issues?

I suppose if one were seriously interested in who flung more rhetorical bullshit one could find out but I'd argue that's an exercise in futility. The effort it would take is better expended cutting through the rhetoric, researching the issues, and quizzing the candidates on the issues. Don't let them get away with glib answers and appeals to prejudice, pin them to the floor and get answers out of them. Do we have to continue expecting so little from our politicians? (This applies equally to the UK btw).

Yes the Reps use rhetorical bullshit. Yes the Dems use rhetorical bullshit. We get it. We got it before anyone mentioned it. It is eminently getable. Now, is there any chance that political exchange could evolve beyond the "them and us" tribalism of a troop of chimps exploring a jungle made from the tu quoque fallacy and something like...oooooooohh I don't know.....a dialogue materialise?

Louis

ETA to fix stuff

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Bye.

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,11:05   

Quote (dogdidit @ Sep. 26 2008,15:11)
[SNIP]

This time around the upfront costs look to be more like ONE TRILLION DOLLARS

and no evidence so far that the Republican president's son has any intention of raising taxes.

[SNIP]

By the way, I'm sending you a bill for a new keyboard and my afternoon double espresso.

This section of your comment caused major coffee expulsion through my nose. Which strangely isn't as pleasant as it sounds.

Louis

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Bye.

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,11:27   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2008,10:07)
Taxing the rich is the Democrats' equivalent of the NRA and Right to Life.

I guess that's because you think that taxing the poor is a much better idea?

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,11:28   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 25 2008,12:53)
Somewhat off-topic, Palin has one of the ugliest accents I've heard in a long time. Where the hell'd she get it? Is this a normal accent for white people in Alaska?

It's a Minnesota/Scandanavian accent, found throughout the Dakotas and into Montana and Idaho. It doesn't surprise me that it's common in Alaska too.

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,11:33   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 25 2008,13:57)
This cycle will repeat every time government policy makes loans available to vast numbers of people who will be unable to repay them.

So the policy of the mortgage-origination industry of making loans and not keeping them (selling them immediately after origination, leaving them no financial interest in the ability of the borrowers to repay) had nothing to do with the present cycle?

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,12:21   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 26 2008,11:05)
 
Quote (dogdidit @ Sep. 26 2008,15:11)
[SNIP]

This time around the upfront costs look to be more like ONE TRILLION DOLLARS

and no evidence so far that the Republican president's son has any intention of raising taxes.

[SNIP]

By the way, I'm sending you a bill for a new keyboard and my afternoon double espresso.

This section of your comment caused major coffee expulsion through my nose. Which strangely isn't as pleasant as it sounds.

Louis



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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
carlsonjok



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,12:39   

Quote (JAM @ Sep. 26 2008,11:33)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 25 2008,13:57)
This cycle will repeat every time government policy makes loans available to vast numbers of people who will be unable to repay them.

So the policy of the mortgage-origination industry of making loans and not keeping them (selling them immediately after origination, leaving them no financial interest in the ability of the borrowers to repay) had nothing to do with the present cycle?

That is an excellent point and is part of why I believe that the whole situation is a case study in moral hazard. You can find moral hazard issues at every level of the problem, including the individual consumer.

And, while I think this bailout is necessary it only perpetuates the moral hazard problem, by absolving investment banks that financed long term securities with short term debt (and consequently found themselves facing liquidity issues) of their responsibility in this whole mess.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,12:55   

Quote (JAM @ Sep. 26 2008,09:28)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 25 2008,12:53)
Somewhat off-topic, Palin has one of the ugliest accents I've heard in a long time. Where the hell'd she get it? Is this a normal accent for white people in Alaska?

It's a Minnesota/Scandanavian accent, found throughout the Dakotas and into Montana and Idaho. It doesn't surprise me that it's common in Alaska too.

I noticed that when I watched her "Putin raises his head" interview -- it has some of that Fargo lilt, tho minus the usual charm that accent has.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,12:58   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 26 2008,12:55)
Quote (JAM @ Sep. 26 2008,09:28)

It's a Minnesota/Scandanavian accent, found throughout the Dakotas and into Montana and Idaho. It doesn't surprise me that it's common in Alaska too.

I noticed that when I watched her "Putin raises his head" interview -- it has some of that Fargo lilt, tho minus the usual charm that accent has.

It is funny you should mention "Fargo" because whenever I hear her voice, I imagine a cabinet meeting with her saying (a la Marge Gunderson) "I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your policy work, there, John. "

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
J-Dog



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Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,19:42   

Quote (Amadan @ Sep. 26 2008,08:29)
Once again, the MSM twists things to distort their meaning.

That man sure do talk purty...

Truly he is eloquent, and I am in awe of his ability to express and capture the mood of America in sucint , pithy phrases that resonate deeply within all of us.

Thank you Amadan.  Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
dhogaza



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 27 2008,15:46   

A lot of scandanavians settled along the pacific northwest coast, working as fishermen and loggers (depending on season), and the SW Alaska economy is based on the same.  Not sure if they settled in numbers in BC, would depend in part on immigration policy back in the late 1800s early 1900s.  There's a "Sons of Norway" lodge south of Astoria, OR for instance, prominently visible off the coast highway.

You can hear that sort of sing-songish lilting style of speech in Seattle's Ballard neighborhood ...

"I'M glad *I* live IN BalLARD."

If I did and were of scandanavian descent, that is.

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 27 2008,16:44   

Quote (JAM @ Sep. 26 2008,11:27)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2008,10:07)
Taxing the rich is the Democrats' equivalent of the NRA and Right to Life.

I guess that's because you think that taxing the poor is a much better idea?

No, we have Lotto for that. Plus cigarette and vice taxes.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 27 2008,18:39   

Palin is to Speaking, what O'Leary is to Writing

Proof?  You want some  effin' proof?

Here's Your Proof:

Palin = O'Leary

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 27 2008,22:18   

having watched the douchebag duel, i can safely and with a clean conscience say that neither one of these fuckwits needs to be any where near 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.  I found myself hoping that McSame had his aneurysm on stage during the debate, followed by Hussein immolating himself to Allah in a fiery pyre shortly thereafter.  Then Jim Lehrer would be president, or Dr Who.  Or perhaps Leonard Little.  Anyone but anyone that is running.

but if it's gotta be someone I don't know if I can stand the old white guy.  For all his talk about 'flexibility' I've never seen the old bastard raise his arms above his head.  I guess the zipper on his back might jump a tooth if he were to stretch that old leather shoe he calls his 'skin'.  And you could see Anti-Christ all over Hussein.

Clean Coal my ass.  What a lackluster gang of demented fuckwits.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
PTET



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,06:51   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 26 2008,12:58)
It is funny you should mention "Fargo" because whenever I hear her voice, I imagine a cabinet meeting with her saying (a la Marge Gunderson) "I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your policy work, there, John. "

Yeah. I get Fargo too. Apologies for yet another link, but here's my wee wee spoof of Palin's CBS interview about Russia.

What's really scary is that Palin still doesn't get why she's mocked for claiming that living next to Russia counts as foreign policy experience... Like no-one at the GOP has told her that yet...

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"It’s not worth the effort to prove the obvious. Ridiculous ideas don’t deserve our time.
Even the attempt to formulate ID is a generous accommodation." - ScottAndrews

   
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,09:57   

Quote (PTET @ Sep. 28 2008,06:51)
What's really scary is that Palin still doesn't get why she's mocked for claiming that living next to Russia counts as foreign policy experience... Like no-one at the GOP has told her that yet...

Does she ever mention the other foreign country that she lives next door to??

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
keiths



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,17:45   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 26 2008,10:58)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 26 2008,12:55)
 
Quote (JAM @ Sep. 26 2008,09:28)

It's a Minnesota/Scandanavian accent, found throughout the Dakotas and into Montana and Idaho. It doesn't surprise me that it's common in Alaska too.

I noticed that when I watched her "Putin raises his head" interview -- it has some of that Fargo lilt, tho minus the usual charm that accent has.

It is funny you should mention "Fargo" because whenever I hear her voice, I imagine a cabinet meeting with her saying (a la Marge Gunderson) "I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your policy work, there, John. "

Sarah Palin's Accent Explained

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,18:22   

lol

I just saw her referred to as "Bible Spice".

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,20:25   

Fox News and UD--birds of a feather

Edited by stevestory on Sep. 28 2008,21:25

   
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,20:55   

FWIW, I take no delight in Palin's humiliation. She just seems to me to be a small-town fundy gal, who doesn't know much about stuff, who finds herself thrown into a national spotlight and asked to do a bunch of stuff she can't. Imagine if the Lakers's GM took you to a regular-season game and put you in a Lakers uniform and told you to guard Paul Pierce. You'd look like a retard. The crowd wouldn't stop laughing. For a while. After a while they'd start wincing, and that's what people are doing with Palin. But the blame wouldn't be so much your fault as the a**hole General Manager who arranged the debacle. The event says more about him than it says about you.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:02   

Palin should be proud she ain't got that thar fancy 'book larnin'.

   
Jkrebs



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:03   

This is a good point.  McCain should be profoundly embarrassed about choosing Palin, and yet he continues to defend her.  That's what's scary.

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:10   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 28 2008,18:55)
FWIW, I take no delight in Palin's humiliation. She just seems to me to be a small-town fundy gal, who doesn't know much about stuff, who finds herself thrown into a national spotlight and asked to do a bunch of stuff she can't. Imagine if the Lakers's GM took you to a regular-season game and put you in a Lakers uniform and told you to guard Paul Pierce. You'd look like a retard. The crowd wouldn't stop laughing. For a while. After a while they'd start wincing, and that's what people are doing with Palin. But the blame wouldn't be so much your fault as the a**hole General Manager who arranged the debacle. The event says more about him than it says about you.

On the other hand, most of us would have the sense not to put the uniform on in the first place.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Erasmus, FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:11   

I take delight in seeing any one of these impostors publicly and painfully exposed as a charlatan, the poseur that they all are.  If only we saw through the veil of the propaganda machine, it would be exceedingly obvious that every single one of them is a stuffed shirt myopic self serving cunt with the wherewithal of a peeled advocado.  Alas, if it became obvious that none of the emperor's contingent were clothed then there would quickly be an empty market for the shit-vendors.  

But of course I'm sure they are all nice people etc etc.  Yawn.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:16   

up until a few days ago i thought the idea of withdrawing her was nuts, more damage than letting it ride, but after watching half a dozen conservative commenters suggest it, I wouldn't be surprised if baby Trig suddenly had a crisis and needed mom's full attention.

   
carlsonjok



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:19   

Quote (Jkrebs @ Sep. 28 2008,21:03)
This is a good point.  McCain should be profoundly embarrassed about choosing Palin, and yet he continues to defend her.  That's what's scary.

McCain painted himself into a corner with this one.  Even if he can overcome his ego and recognize that Palin was a poor choice, who else is he going to choose? The conservative evangelicals love Palin and dropping her from the ticket might just piss them off enough that they stay home. Huckabee is about the only backup choice that could salvage the Religious Right vote and he isn't exactly free of baggage either.  But, when it comes right down to it, I doubt McCain's ego will ever let him admit he punted this one.

Frankly, I have to agree with Steve.  This has gotten pathetic and all I can feel is pity for her. While I doubt I would ever have common ground with Palin, I think she could have been a respectable pol with sufficient seasoning*. She just wasn't ready to be on the stage at this level and I cannot escape the feeling that the McCain campaign has her on a extremely short leash and won't allow her to do anything other than act the beauty queen and regurgitate the sound bites that they feed her.

* Garlic powder, cumin, a pinch of salt, and maybe some ground ancho pepper.   :D

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:21   

Quote (Jkrebs @ Sep. 28 2008,19:03)
This is a good point.  McCain should be profoundly embarrassed about choosing Palin, and yet he continues to defend her.  That's what's scary.

He knows that choosing Palin was a mistake, but he's reversed himself on so many things in the past couple of weeks that he can't afford to do it again. Instead, he's got to keep pretending that she's wonderful and hope that the rubes buy it.

The good news is that her favorability rating has plunged in the past week.  It looks like folks are catchin' on.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:28   

McCain would almost have to pick RomneyHuckabee or risk Massive Fundy Freakout. Maybe Romney?

fixed in edit

Edited by stevestory on Sep. 28 2008,22:41

   
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:30   

Pat Boone.  He's a maverick.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:36   

I suggest James Garner, Roger Moore, Jack Kelly or Robert Colbert.  

Thank You wikipedia!!!

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:36   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 28 2008,21:28)
McCain would almost have to pick Romney or risk Massive Fundy Freakout. Maybe Romney?

Not a chance.  In addition to being a cultist Mormon, Romney's record from his time as governor of Massachusetts speaks to moderate positions on issues important to evangelicals that makes him suspect, his rightward tack during the primaries notwithstanding. Frankly, Mitt's "conversion" to hard right positions was even more transparent than McCain's.

Maybe Bobby Jindal. More of a cypher than Huckabee, but slick enough to be able to bluff his way through an interview.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,21:44   

yeah i mistyped. i meant Huckabee. Though you're right, Jindal might work.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,22:46   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 28 2008,18:55)
FWIW, I take no delight in Palin's humiliation. She just seems to me to be a small-town fundy gal, who doesn't know much about stuff, who finds herself thrown into a national spotlight and asked to do a bunch of stuff she can't. Imagine if the Lakers's GM took you to a regular-season game and put you in a Lakers uniform and told you to guard Paul Pierce. You'd look like a retard. The crowd wouldn't stop laughing. For a while. After a while they'd start wincing, and that's what people are doing with Palin. But the blame wouldn't be so much your fault as the a**hole General Manager who arranged the debacle. The event says more about him than it says about you.

Fuck her. Watch her nomination speech again and ask yourself if she deserves our sympathy any more than GB2 or Dick Cheney.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,23:25   

I didn't say that I like her, but you've got to feel some sympathy for a person who gets turned into a national joke by a process they don't really understand.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2008,23:42   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 28 2008,21:25)
I didn't say that I like her, but you've got to feel some sympathy for a person who gets turned into a national joke by a process they don't really understand.

[checks pockets, rummages through desk drawers]

Ummmmm, nope. Can't seem to find any.

But some of the people here seem to have what you're talking about.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2008,06:59   

Quote (keiths @ Sep. 28 2008,21:30)
Pat Boone.  He's a maverick.

"Maverick"? Here ya go:


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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2008,09:43   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 29 2008,00:25)
I didn't say that I like her, but you've got to feel some sympathy for a person who gets turned into a national joke by a process they don't really understand.

You can find sympathy in the dictionary: between suicide and syphilis.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2008,09:43   

Quote (keiths @ Sep. 28 2008,21:21)
The good news is that her favorability rating has plunged in the past week.  It looks like folks are catchin' on.

I have a math quibble to take up about that linked article.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2008,10:04   

Quote (khan @ Sep. 29 2008,07:43)
Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 29 2008,00:25)
I didn't say that I like her, but you've got to feel some sympathy for a person who gets turned into a national joke by a process they don't really understand.

You can find sympathy in the dictionary: between suicide and syphilis.

Funny thing -- my uncle had the same saying, but he said sympathy was between shit and syphilis.

I never could figure out what that saying was supposed to mean as a kid. Somewhere around my 30s I figured it out.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2008,11:51   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 29 2008,11:04)
Quote (khan @ Sep. 29 2008,07:43)
Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 29 2008,00:25)
I didn't say that I like her, but you've got to feel some sympathy for a person who gets turned into a national joke by a process they don't really understand.

You can find sympathy in the dictionary: between suicide and syphilis.

Funny thing -- my uncle had the same saying, but he said sympathy was between shit and syphilis.

I never could figure out what that saying was supposed to mean as a kid. Somewhere around my 30s I figured it out.

My mother said it, probably wanted to be a bit more delicate.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,08:06   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 29 2008,00:25)
I didn't say that I like her, but you've got to feel some sympathy for a person who gets turned into a national joke by a process they don't really understand.

Oooh, yeah, I'm gonna have to sort of disagree with you there. </Lumburgh>

Two Reasons.  Personal responsibility and competency.  She chose to accept the VP slot and thus all that comes with it.  Yes, McCain is also at fault for asking her in the first place, but she is responsible for her own choices and the outcomes that follow.  We don't feel much pity/sympathy for the UD crowd because they are doing it to themselves...Palin is no exception.

As for competency, you make the point yourself, "...a process they don't really understand."  If you can't even handle the process, how can you handle the responsibility?  Since McCain didn't vet her, it's up to the voters and it's my hope that's what's happening.

I understand that you want to feel sympathy for a person in this situation, and on one level, that's good.  But, seeing as this person will have tremendous sway and influence over so many areas of our lives, isn't it more important to make decisions based on facts rather than emtions?

I'm not trying to say that you were...just that I don't think she deserves sympathy in this situation.  She chose to accept the VP slot.  She keeps making comments that show she's little more than a convention speech.  She avoids tough questions and situations.  Until she puts herself through the process that every other candidate goes through, she will reap what she sows.

We ridicule people that lambaste evolution without understanding it.  We ridicule people that can't move beyond debunked talking points.  We ridicule people that have strange logic, non-sequitors, logical fallacies, hypocritical stances, empty rhetoric and more...you probably know the list better than I.  I guess I just don't see how this situation is different.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,08:37   

Look for Palin to be prepped by Rove to just attack Dems, Obama and Biden, and not really debate on Thursday.  It's all she's got, and they will rely on either getting Joe to lose his cool and go after her (a woman), or he will just have to take it.

Based on her recent performances, this could looked forced and transparent, although based on UTube footage of her debating in AK, she looks much more polished and able to at least throw a sentence together.

I'm hoping for another Tina Fey moment or two.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,08:39   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Sep. 30 2008,14:06)
[SNIP Excellent stuff]

 I guess I just don't see how this situation is different.

It isn't.

I find it very curious that there is an ever increasing anti-intellectual sentiment in the USA and the UK (and elsewhere). This is especially true in politics. It's also very interesting that the people who have developed the PR strategy of decrying the "liberal elite" (for example) as "not being like you and me" are themselves very elite, very competent intellectuals.

Why does anyone want the most elite and capable athletes to represent their nation, the most elite and capable surgeons to perform their surgery, the most elite and capable scientists to discover cures for their diseases and yet when it comes to the trifling and simple matter of controlling a nuclear arsenal or the labyrinthian convolutions of international relations or the complex fluctuations of economics they want "jes' plain ol' folks". It's one of the most staggering bits of irrational hypocrisy I've ever encountered.

Louis

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Bye.

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,08:52   

We also insist on having a civilian as commander in chief of the armed forces. Sometimes someone with no military experience.

Go figure.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,09:39   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 30 2008,09:52)
We also insist on having a civilian as commander in chief of the armed forces. Sometimes someone with no military experience.

Go figure.

Similar but a little different, IMO.  One aspect of having a civilain commander-in-chief is about trying to control the power of a military and avoid it having too much influence on the government.  In theory, such a commander could keep politics out of the military and keep the military out of politics.  And then of course we have reality, but I digress.

On the other hand, I think there is a good point that said commander should have a good understanding of the capabilites and limitation of the armed forces.  I think a good commander-in-chief should give heavy weight to the advice of his military advisors when regarding military actions.  Their advice shouldn't be taken as flawless, but ultima ratio regum is not something to take lightly.


quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur

  
Erasmus, FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,09:46   



Republican's next pick after Palin bows out for 'family time'?

Would this be an improvement?  Inquiring minds want to know.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,09:49   

I was being a bit sarcastic. I think civilian control of the military is as important as freedom of the press and secularism. The political Trinity, at least until someone adds more to the list.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,09:59   

I knew that, who said I didn't?


<insert Zoidberg image here>

(I have no excuse midwife, I'm bad at detecting sarcasm on the internet)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,10:00   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 30 2008,15:46)


Republican's next pick after Palin bows out for 'family time'?

Would this be an improvement?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Would this be an improvement? Yes. I've always thought Arden's mother would be a good candidate.

Sorry, was that not the question?

Louis

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Bye.

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,10:07   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 28 2008,21:19)


Frankly, I have to agree with Steve.  This has gotten pathetic and all I can feel is pity for her. While I doubt I would ever have common ground with Palin, I think she could have been a respectable pol with sufficient seasoning*. She just wasn't ready to be on the stage at this level and I cannot escape the feeling that the McCain campaign has her on a extremely short leash and won't allow her to do anything other than act the beauty queen and regurgitate the sound bites that they feed her.

* Garlic powder, cumin, a pinch of salt, and maybe some ground ancho pepper.   :D


Sarah Palin and seasoning:  her nickname should be Bible Spice.  :D

Read on the intarwebs somewhere.

I can't work up any sympathy for a person who volunteered to be embarassed.

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,11:18   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 30 2008,06:52)
We also insist on having a civilian as commander in chief of the armed forces. Sometimes someone with no military experience.

Go figure.

The Naval War College did a very disturbing war game study some years ago. They found that "commanders in chief" who lacked personal military experience grossly over estimated the effectiveness and capabilities of the military. Plus, they were more likely to turn to a military solution when apparently frustrated diplomatically.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,11:57   

Quote
They found that "commanders in chief" who lacked personal military experience grossly over estimated the effectiveness and capabilities of the military. Plus, they were more likely to turn to a military solution when apparently frustrated diplomatically.


I'm a Vietnam vet. Been there, done that. Anybody who's seen something like that will be cautious about what the military can do.

Now if you need to break something, no one can do it faster or better than the U.S. military.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,12:54   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Sep. 30 2008,09:59)
I knew that, who said I didn't?

HAR HAR THIS IS YOU



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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,12:56   

Civilian commander-in-chief v. military dictatorship or junta? I'll go with the civilian, please.

After having contracted to the military for several years as a civilian consultant, I'd commend that as another way to come to an appreciation of the limitations of military capability.

I think that the voting public was sufficiently apprised of the "chicken hawk" nature of the current administration at the least; I'd prefer that we take such choices on a case-by-case basis and not be quick to try to add restrictions on eligibility for our highest public office.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,13:41   

Quote
I'd prefer that we take such choices on a case-by-case basis and not be quick to try to add restrictions on eligibility for our highest public office.


No one is adding restrictions, but it does figure into the voting decisions of some people.

Off topic, but if I were asking debate questions I would be more interested in how to deal with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia than with Iraq or Afghanistan, or even Iran.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,14:29   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 30 2008,18:56)
Civilian commander-in-chief v. military dictatorship or junta? I'll go with the civilian, please.

After having contracted to the military for several years as a civilian consultant, I'd commend that as another way to come to an appreciation of the limitations of military capability.

I think that the voting public was sufficiently apprised of the "chicken hawk" nature of the current administration at the least; I'd prefer that we take such choices on a case-by-case basis and not be quick to try to add restrictions on eligibility for our highest public office.

There's absolutely no desire on my part to add restrictions. The tricky balancing act between getting the best person for the job and getting the best available democratically elected person for the job is the issue. It's up to parties to put forward better candidates under the current system, but I wouldn't argue against a certain degree of qualification being required for the post.

But then that requires the opportunity to get those qualifications be equally open to all......

Louis

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Bye.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,14:30   

Quote

No one is adding restrictions


Well, that's reassuring. The fact that my statement of principle seems not to be in any danger from a current instance is a pleasant non-surprise.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,15:56   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 30 2008,14:29)
It's up to parties to put forward better candidates under the current system, but I wouldn't argue against a certain degree of qualification being required for the post.

The American political system typically chooses President's from its pool of current and former executive leaders: state governors, presidents (up for re-election), and sitting vice presidents. This election cycle is the first in 100 years to break that rule, since neither candidate fits the 'former elected executive' criteria. That's one missing qualification, right there.

I don't know if military experience prepares anybody to be commander-in-chief; everybody in uniform has a senior commander, from whom emanate orders. It would be useful for the President to know the risks and limitations of military power, e.g. that foreign dictators are remarkably difficult to kill with Tomohawk missiles. But that sort of wisdom ought to be attainable from history, and common sense. (And a little outrage - why doesn't the weapon system do all the things we were promised it could do when we bought it?!)

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,16:38   

This may sound naive, but a president is himself plus his party. If the party can't fill the vacancies in a president's knowledge and skill package, the country is screwed, because very few people are fully qualified for the job.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Richard Simons



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2008,21:42   

I see The Economist is polling its readers to see who they would prefer. Each country gets votes according to its population following the American Electoral College system. Current results are McCain 3, Obama 8192 - but we all know how reliable internet polls are ;-)

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All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,06:53   

Quote (Richard Simons @ Sep. 30 2008,21:42)
I see The Economist is polling its readers to see who they would prefer. Each country gets votes according to its population following the American Electoral College system. Current results are McCain 3, Obama 8192 - but we all know how reliable internet polls are ;-)

If there were no other reasons to vote for McCain (and there aren't many, other than Sarah Palin and Joe 'they shot at me!' Biden) that alone might provide sufficient cause.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,07:33   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 01 2008,06:53)
If there were no other reasons to vote for McCain (and there aren't many, other than Sarah Palin

Indeed, after 8 years of Cheney's malevolent machinations it would be a pleasant change to have an effervescent incompetent take up residence at the Naval Observatory, although I am concerned that the change in address will leave her unable to monitor Russia.  It could be a problem, what with Putin raising it's head.

Another good thing about Sarah is that, unlike Cheney, she doesn't shoot her friends in the face. Only mooses and political enemies.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,08:32   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 01 2008,06:53)
Quote (Richard Simons @ Sep. 30 2008,21:42)
I see The Economist is polling its readers to see who they would prefer. Each country gets votes according to its population following the American Electoral College system. Current results are McCain 3, Obama 8192 - but we all know how reliable internet polls are ;-)

If there were no other reasons to vote for McCain (and there aren't many, other than Sarah Palin and Joe 'they shot at me!' Biden) that alone might provide sufficient cause.

Why do so many Americans seem to take the view that it is a good thing to have a leader who is disliked elsewhere? I do not understand this attitude "I am opposed to whatever you want".

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All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,08:38   

Quote (Richard Simons @ Oct. 01 2008,08:32)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 01 2008,06:53)
   
Quote (Richard Simons @ Sep. 30 2008,21:42)
I see The Economist is polling its readers to see who they would prefer. Each country gets votes according to its population following the American Electoral College system. Current results are McCain 3, Obama 8192 - but we all know how reliable internet polls are ;-)

If there were no other reasons to vote for McCain (and there aren't many, other than Sarah Palin and Joe 'they shot at me!' Biden) that alone might provide sufficient cause.

Why do so many Americans seem to take the view that it is a good thing to have a leader who is disliked elsewhere? I do not understand this attitude "I am opposed to whatever you want".

It's not that. I simply have an inviolate voting guideline:

If, in the postmodern world, China, Russia, and Venezuela are against a candidate, and Andorra is for that candidate, I'm going to vote for him no matter what. This rule has never let me down.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,08:56   

The Bush/Cheney and the Clinton/Gore administrations are a good contrast re: military experience. Bush was jumped into the National Guard, and had no theater experience of any kind. Cheney ran out the war through 4 or 5 deferments. They used the military as a primary tool.

Clinton used student deferments, but Gore had some non-combat experience as a soldier in a war-zone. They used the military sparingly and only on terms that the military advised.

I agree with Wes that there are alternatives to direct service. As I recall, the War College study I mentioned only had  partisipants who were mostly politicians split military v. non-military. However, it has been probably 20 years since I read the article.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,09:02   

More on topic, the Palin/Couric saga continues:

Quote
Couric: What's your position on global warming? Do you believe it's man-made or not?
Palin: Well, we're the only Arctic state, of course, Alaska. So we feel the impacts more than any other state, up there with the changes in climates. And certainly, it is apparent. We have erosion issues. And we have melting sea ice, of course. So, what I've done up there is form a sub-cabinet to focus solely on climate change. Understanding that it is real. And …
Couric: Is it man-made, though in your view?
Palin: You know there are - there are man's activities that can be contributed to the issues that we're dealing with now, these impacts. I'm not going to solely blame all of man's activities on changes in climate. Because the world's weather patterns are cyclical. And over history we have seen change there. But kind of doesn't matter at this point, as we debate what caused it. The point is: it's real; we need to do something about it.


All in all, not a bad answer adjusting for a bit of verbal salad tossing.

Quote
Couric: Do you believe evolution should be taught as an accepted scientific principle or as one of several theories?
Palin: Oh, I think it should be taught as an accepted principle. And, as you know, I say that also as the daughter of a school teacher, a science teacher, who has really instilled in me a respect for science. It should be taught in our schools. And I won't deny that I see the hand of God in this beautiful creation that is Earth. But that is not part of the state policy or a local curriculum in a school district. Science should be taught it science class.


No objection there, either.

Darn it!

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,09:06   

I think it might be useful for aspiring presidential candidates to go through boot camp. Tom Lehrer wrote a song about it, but it's not the same as being there.

Quite frankly, most vets, including Gore and myself, have not participated in close combat.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,09:14   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Oct. 01 2008,07:06)
I think it might be useful for aspiring presidential candidates to go through boot camp. Tom Lehrer wrote a song about it, but it's not the same as being there.

Quite frankly, most vets, including Gore and myself, have not participated in close combat.

The number of people actually shooting at each other in a war is actually a small percentage.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Draconizza



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Joined: Oct. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,09:32   

I'm not so optimistic Dr.GH, look at the fine print of Palin's answer

Couric: Should creationism be allowed to be taught anywhere in public schools?

Palin: Don't have a problem at all with kids debating all sides of theories, all sides of ideas that they ever - kids do it today whether ... it's on paper, in a curriculum or not. Curriculums also are best left to the local school districts. Instead of Big Brother, federal government telling a district what they can and can't teach, I would like to see more control taken over by our school boards, by our local schools, and then state government at the most. But federal government, you know, kind of get out of some of this curriculum and let the locals decide what is best for their students.

Leaving the teaching of evolution in the hands of Fundies school board is a standard I.D. tactic

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,10:02   

Quote (Draconizza @ Oct. 01 2008,07:32)
I'm not so optimistic Dr.GH, look at the fine print of Palin's answer

Couric: Should creationism be allowed to be taught anywhere in public schools?

Palin: Don't have a problem at all with kids debating all sides of theories, all sides of ideas that they ever - kids do it today whether ... it's on paper, in a curriculum or not. Curriculums also are best left to the local school districts. Instead of Big Brother, federal government telling a district what they can and can't teach, I would like to see more control taken over by our school boards, by our local schools, and then state government at the most. But federal government, you know, kind of get out of some of this curriculum and let the locals decide what is best for their students.

Leaving the teaching of evolution in the hands of Fundies school board is a standard I.D. tactic

Oh, I am not suggesting that she isn't a creationist- and probably YEC, merely that she sidesteped the question professionally.

PS: Welcome to the board.  :D

Edited by Dr.GH on Oct. 01 2008,08:02

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Amadan



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Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,11:01   

Actually, I doubt that she's YEC, and there really isn't too much evidence to suggest that she is. Whatever about the word-salad (and boy, can she ever toss 'em! Croutons, even), she isn't downright dumb.

What I do suspect is that she knows perfectly well what The Base wants to hear and is happy to say it. Like DocDoc* Billy, she knows it's all garbage, but hey, if you wanna hunt, ya gotta go where the ducks moose are.


*Who's there?

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Draconizza



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,11:05   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Oct. 01 2008,10:02)
PS: Welcome to the board.  :D

Thanks! My last account is gone for some reason, looking forward to the discussion here.

Isn't there a rumor that Palin once told someone that she saw man print with dinosaurs?

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,12:52   

Intrade at the moment:

Barack Obama to win 2008 US Presidential Election
Last Price: 66.0

John McCain to win 2008 US Presidential Election
Last Price: 34.5

that's the biggest gap yet.

   
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,13:04   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 01 2008,08:38)
If, in the postmodern world, China, Russia, and Venezuela are against a candidate, and Andorra is for that candidate, I'm going to vote for him no matter what. This rule has never let me down.

How would you know if the rule had or had not let you down?

If you voted for a candidate who became president, and by the end of his term in office the country's financial system, social system (health, justice, etc) and international reputation had declined markedly, then you would know that the rule had probably let you down (except that the one you did not vote for might have done even worse). If you voted for a president who left the country in as good or better shape than he found it, you still would not know if the alternative would have done better. If you did not vote for the president you could say nothing about the rule.

I would like to add that if Americans want their country to be seen as the world's leader they have to be prepared to see others' points of view and to make compromises, unless they are willing and able to impose their opinions on everyone else.

(Minor edit for grammar)

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All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
Assassinator



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,13:14   

Quote (Richard Simons @ Oct. 01 2008,13:04)
I would like to add that if Americans want their country to be seen as the world's leader they have to be prepared to see others' points of view and to make compromises, unless they are willing and able to impose their opinions on everyone else.

Well compromises aren't everything :P In Dutch politics, the goal is no longer to solve problems, but to "improve the situation". Wich is why barely anything changes over here. Compromises are important, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,13:23   

The rest of the world is not monolithic. At some point you have to decide that dictators are dictators, and folks who want to impose a new dark age -- whether Muslim or Christian -- are simply wrong and have to be opposed.

There are, of course, all sorts of options short of invasion or aerial bombing, but I see no merit in diluting the notion that women must have equal rights under the law, and that this applies everywhere.

Just as an example.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,13:23   

Quote

unless they are willing and able to impose their opinions on everyone else.


The widespread view that non-science should be taught as if it were science in our schools here is an indication that the USA may not long continue to have the wherewithal to impose its opinion on others. If Bush & Co. were really serious about the notion that the USA should continue to be a pre-eminent superpower, they would have been getting very serious indeed about promoting science and engineering careers, and also on eliminating threats to good science education, such as religious antievolution. There was some brief mention of science and engineering initiatives early in 2006, but I don't recall that that lasted long, and certainly the administration has done little to nothing to hamper the religious antievolution movement, and from time to time has handed that movement opportunities instead. For instance, the August 2006 statement by Pres. Bush that "both sides" should be taught.

Students who are taught anti-science and science as if both were science are not going to be anything but confused about the nature of science.

Jingoists should be aware that "USA! USA! USA!'-ism comes with a price tag, and that is that our work force needs to be not just technologically informed, but needs to out-compete the other 96% of the world's population when it comes to making science and technology advancements. The Red Queen demands it. Religious antievolution is a distraction and hindrance that their vision of US hegemony simply cannot afford.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,16:03   

Kathleen Parker's inbox is not happy with her criticism of Palin.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news.....column

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,17:00   

A while ago Erasmus sad that voting was similair to praying. 5 Minutes ago I came across this:
 
Quote
Where ONE vote has made the difference:
In 1776, English was chosen over German as the language for America by ONE vote.
In 1800, After an Electoral College tie, the House of Representatives voted Thomas Jefferson the 3rd President of the United States by ONE vote.
In 1868, President Andrew Johnson was saved from impeachment by ONE vote.
In 1876, Rutherford B. Hayes became President of the United States over Samuel Tilden by ONE vote.
In 1923, Hitler won the leadership of the German Nazi Party by ONE vote.
In 1948, Lyndon B. Johnson, the 36th President, became a U.S. Senator by ONE vote.
California, Idaho, Oregon, Texas and Washington all became states by ONE vote.

from http://www.napas.org/issues/voting/pava/TNInserts.pdf
Interesting.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,17:01   

Quote (Amadan @ Oct. 01 2008,09:01)
Actually, I doubt that she's YEC, and there really isn't too much evidence to suggest that she is.

"Palin treads carefully between fundamentalist beliefs and public policy Her faith views are strong and sometimes controversial. Her aides say she seeks to share but not impose her faith; her critics say she has 'a fine-tuned sense of how far to push."

By Stephen Braun
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

September 28, 2008

ANCHORAGE - Soon after Sarah Palin was elected mayor of the foothill town of Wasilla, Alaska, she startled a local music teacher by insisting in casual conversation that men and dinosaurs coexisted on an Earth created 6,000 years ago -- about 65 million years after scientists say most dinosaurs became extinct -- the teacher said.

After conducting a college band and watching Palin deliver a commencement address to a small group of home-schooled students in June 1997, Wasilla resident Philip Munger said, he asked the young mayor about her religious beliefs.

Palin told him that "dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time,"Munger said. When he asked her about prehistoric fossils and tracks dating back millions of years, Palin said "she had seen pictures of human footprints inside
the tracks," recalled Munger, who teaches music at the University of Alaska in Anchorage and has regularly criticized Palin in recent years on his liberal political blog, called Progressive Alaska.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,17:08   

Quote (Assassinator @ Oct. 01 2008,18:00)
A while ago Erasmus sad that voting was similair to praying. 5 Minutes ago I came across this:
   
Quote
Where ONE vote has made the difference:
In 1776, English was chosen over German as the language for America by ONE vote.
In 1800, After an Electoral College tie, the House of Representatives voted Thomas Jefferson the 3rd President of the United States by ONE vote.
In 1868, President Andrew Johnson was saved from impeachment by ONE vote.
In 1876, Rutherford B. Hayes became President of the United States over Samuel Tilden by ONE vote.
In 1923, Hitler won the leadership of the German Nazi Party by ONE vote.
In 1948, Lyndon B. Johnson, the 36th President, became a U.S. Senator by ONE vote.
California, Idaho, Oregon, Texas and Washington all became states by ONE vote.

from http://www.napas.org/issues/voting/pava/TNInserts.pdf
Interesting.

Maybe, maybe not:

http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/onevote.asp

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,17:22   

Quote (khan @ Oct. 01 2008,17:08)
Quote (Assassinator @ Oct. 01 2008,18:00)
A while ago Erasmus sad that voting was similair to praying. 5 Minutes ago I came across this:
   
Quote
Where ONE vote has made the difference:
In 1776, English was chosen over German as the language for America by ONE vote.
In 1800, After an Electoral College tie, the House of Representatives voted Thomas Jefferson the 3rd President of the United States by ONE vote.
In 1868, President Andrew Johnson was saved from impeachment by ONE vote.
In 1876, Rutherford B. Hayes became President of the United States over Samuel Tilden by ONE vote.
In 1923, Hitler won the leadership of the German Nazi Party by ONE vote.
In 1948, Lyndon B. Johnson, the 36th President, became a U.S. Senator by ONE vote.
California, Idaho, Oregon, Texas and Washington all became states by ONE vote.

from http://www.napas.org/issues/voting/pava/TNInserts.pdf
Interesting.

Maybe, maybe not:

http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/onevote.asp

Makes it indeed a lot less interesting. The link still gives a true one-vote example (apperantly), but that's still meager and not so dramatic. Falling into an internet hype hurts ;)

  
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,19:56   

Quote (Assassinator @ Oct. 01 2008,13:14)
 
Quote (Richard Simons @ Oct. 01 2008,13:04)
I would like to add that if Americans want their country to be seen as the world's leader they have to be prepared to see others' points of view and to make compromises, unless they are willing and able to impose their opinions on everyone else.

Well compromises aren't everything :P In Dutch politics, the goal is no longer to solve problems, but to "improve the situation". Wich is why barely anything changes over here. Compromises are important, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

Quite true. I had no intention of implying otherwise. As far as I am concerned, countries should not compromise on, for example, equal treatment for all regardless of race, sex and creed, prohibition of torture, no imprisonment without a trial and the right to legal representation.

I was thinking more of issues like trade and territory disputes and yes, criticism could be validly made of many countries, not just the U.S.

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All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,17:51   

ooo, on Intrade McCain has slipped below 1/3rd.

http://www.intrade.com/?reques....ge=true

the electoral votes are right now polling

Obama 353
McCain 185

got-dang.

FWIW, there are almost 5 weeks left, i think it'll swing back closer for a while, but if you're the obama camp you have to be thinking about breaking out the Partagus and Corona boxes.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,18:08   

Somebody mentioned the term "Bible Spice" for Palin. AFAIK, it came from this Balloon Juice post a week ago. John Cole is a principled conservative who of course is therefore in open rebellion against the deranged GOP. It's a great post:

Quote
26
Sep
Debate Preview and Open Thread

by John Cole

Apparently there is a debate tonight. The funny thing about it is I really don’t even care. There is, quite honestly, nothing Obama could say that would make me not vote for him. His opening statement could be “My name is Barack Hussein Obama, and I am a muslim, and winning this election is all part of a plot to turn the United States into my own personal caliphate,” and I would shrug and vote for him anyway because at least he would go about it in a competent manner. Compared to the last eight years with C+ Augustus and Darth Cheney and the possibility of four more with Johnny Drama and Bible Spice, that would be preferable.


http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=11433

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,22:27   

OMG...Sarah soooooo held her own tonight.  If I may be so bold, I THINK SHE KICKED BIDEN'S ASS!!!  

She must have been premenstrual during the Couric interview...she didn't even look like the same person.  Makes you wonder how that interview was conducted.  

I will say though, that Joe (if I may call him that...lol) was quite the gentleman, and he didn't talk down to her.

I'M SO WOUND UP THAT I'LL *NEVER* SLEEP TONIGHT!!!1111!!!!  I'll definitely be needin' my Monster drinks tomorrow...

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,22:40   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 02 2008,22:27)
OMG...Sarah soooooo held her own tonight.  If I may be so bold, I THINK SHE KICKED BIDEN'S ASS!!!  

She must have been premenstrual during the Couric interview...she didn't even look like the same person.  Makes you wonder how that interview was conducted.  

I will say though, that Joe (if I may call him that...lol) was quite the gentleman, and he didn't talk down to her.

I'M SO WOUND UP THAT I'LL *NEVER* SLEEP TONIGHT!!!1111!!!!  I'll definitely be needin' my Monster drinks tomorrow...

Of course you did.  Any specific moments you'd like to share with us.

Please, I know evidence is a foreign thing for you, but I gotta know.

PLEASE.  PLEASE.  PLEASE.  Tell us one specific question in which she "kicked his ass".

Oh please.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,22:46   

Quote (blipey @ Oct. 02 2008,22:40)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 02 2008,22:27)
OMG...Sarah soooooo held her own tonight.  If I may be so bold, I THINK SHE KICKED BIDEN'S ASS!!!  

She must have been premenstrual during the Couric interview...she didn't even look like the same person.  Makes you wonder how that interview was conducted.  

I will say though, that Joe (if I may call him that...lol) was quite the gentleman, and he didn't talk down to her.

I'M SO WOUND UP THAT I'LL *NEVER* SLEEP TONIGHT!!!1111!!!!  I'll definitely be needin' my Monster drinks tomorrow...

Of course you did.  Any specific moments you'd like to share with us.

Please, I know evidence is a foreign thing for you, but I gotta know.

PLEASE.  PLEASE.  PLEASE.  Tell us one specific question in which she "kicked his ass".

Oh please.

Oh heavens, I can't be bothered with trying to remember every little thing she said!  I'm a creationist don't ya know...short term memory and all.  All I know is she looked good, winked a lot and smiled pretty.  


BAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAA..!!!!  

[/ftk in blipster's twisted mind]

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,22:50   

Okay, Ftk, I'll even help you out; I'm a nice guy.  I've noticed that you have trouble sorting out specifics at times.  Here are some choices but, as always, feel free to use your own:

1.  Any of the questions in the first half hour that she answered by talking abut Alaskan Energy Policy, no matter the topic of the question.  (My personal favorite was when she answered the question on Americans' support of troop actions to settle trouble spots around the globe by talking about Alaskan Energy Policy--a clear winner.)

2.  Any of the 3,723 times she used the word "maverick"

3.  Any of the times she used the first 1/3 of her 90 seconds to make small talk so that it would seem she was using all of her time.  (My personal favorite was when she spoke for 30 seconds about the members of her family who were in the audience, and how they taught school and what lesson plans they gave their students--all unrelated to the question at hand.)

4.  Here's the easy one for you.  When she said it was apparent that she was a Washington outsider, because she didn't understand Biden's "Senate speak".  No mention of the content of what he said, just the implication that Senator's are bad people--expect, presumably McCain.

5.  Something else?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,22:52   

Quote
Oh heavens, I can't be bothered with trying to remember every little thing she said!  I'm a creationist don't ya know...short term memory and all.  All I know is she looked good, winked a lot and smiled pretty.  


BAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAA..!!!!  

[/ftk in blipster's twisted mind]


You got the form of a joke correct.  Unfortunately, that comment looks exactly like 1,300ish other comments that are lying around here somewhere...if only I could remember who wrote them....

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,23:04   

Oh, now blipey, you're just sooooo jealous that we have a hot chick who is not only *hawt*, but obviously knows her stuff and can hold her own with one of the good 'ol boys from Washington.  I think her personal touch of telling the public that she *isn't* a Washington pure bred is certainly a plus.  We're sick of the shit going on at the top.

She represents change, and like Biden said....he'll "never change".


:p  :p  :p

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,23:13   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 02 2008,23:04)
Oh, now blipey, you're just sooooo jealous that we have a hot chick who is not only *hawt*, but obviously knows her stuff and can hold her own with one of the good 'ol boys from Washington.  I think her personal touch of telling the public that she *isn't* a Washington pure bred is certainly a plus.  We're sick of the shit going on at the top.

She represents change, and like Biden said....he'll "never change".


:p  :p  :p

Ftk,

I'm going to state this politely just one more time.

What stuff does she know?

I gave a few examples of where I thought she DID NOT know her stuff.  Instead of countering those and giving examples of where I got it wrong, you merely state a generality about who she knows her "stuff".

I'm calling your bluff.  I say Palin doesn't know squat about 85% of the topics in that debate.  Furthermore, I'm saying that you don't know squat about 85% of the topics in that debate and will therefore be unable to give one example of Palin "knowing her stuff."

How 'bout it?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,23:18   

lol....even when I do know more than 'squat", you twist every word I say.

Been fun, blipster...never change.  Night luv.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,23:24   

Wow. Just feckin' wow.

You can't even be bothered to tell us what you thought your own candidate did well.  Not a thing.  Not even an opinion.

I know it's a different list, but I'm very tempted to put it on:

"On what specific question(s?) did Sarah Palin kick Joe Biden's ass?"

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,00:10   

Blah...show up...crow victory while citing no examples...disappear...even Joe Paterno can at least come up with new plays for his playbook...yawn...

As someone who generally identifies himself as a conservative, I thought watching Palin was like watching a retard trying to race Usain Bolt.  On the other side, I was extremely disappointed with Biden...but it was on an entirely different level...they both sucked if you ask me...but one sucked way more.  I 100% agree with Blipey's points.

<edit to add advance apology for abuse of sports analogies>

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,00:30   

Quote (Assassinator @ Oct. 01 2008,17:22)
 
Quote (khan @ Oct. 01 2008,17:08)
 
Quote (Assassinator @ Oct. 01 2008,18:00)
A while ago Erasmus sad that voting was similair to praying. 5 Minutes ago I came across this:
       
Quote
Where ONE vote has made the difference:
In 1776, English was chosen over German as the language for America by ONE vote.
In 1800, After an Electoral College tie, the House of Representatives voted Thomas Jefferson the 3rd President of the United States by ONE vote.
In 1868, President Andrew Johnson was saved from impeachment by ONE vote.
In 1876, Rutherford B. Hayes became President of the United States over Samuel Tilden by ONE vote.
In 1923, Hitler won the leadership of the German Nazi Party by ONE vote.
In 1948, Lyndon B. Johnson, the 36th President, became a U.S. Senator by ONE vote.
California, Idaho, Oregon, Texas and Washington all became states by ONE vote.

from http://www.napas.org/issues/voting/pava/TNInserts.pdf
Interesting.

Maybe, maybe not:

http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/onevote.asp

Makes it indeed a lot less interesting. The link still gives a true one-vote example (apperantly), but that's still meager and not so dramatic. Falling into an internet hype hurts ;)



Of course the fact that one side or the other wins any particular contest and this is sometimes close does not even address the point i was raised, which was "So What".

Like tonight, you have got Tommy Tall Boy (a broker sort of Joe Six Pack) and his common law wife Vicky Valium (oft represented here as your favorite meek and mild hausfrau for Jeeesus, but that is only one instantiation)  who are probly plumb tickled that there pentecostal moose huntin woman is a-gonna get up there and kick some of the sissies out of washington.  Why hell yeah they say, GW is a pretty big dumbass but see John McCain could have been his daddy and his daddy wasn't too bad anyway and Dana Carvey did a good number on him so fuck it that means McCain is a lot like Reagan.  And lo and behold he says that too.  And some of these fuckers probably think he was actually Reagan's vice president.  or something.

And folks who prefer their talking heads on TV to be more egghead-like (let's call them Joe 13-year-old-whiskey and Career Mom Carol) and use all of those cultured sophisticated educated oratory styles, reference fancy theories from books, insist niggling over the details instead of speaking forcefully and with emotion without worrying about 'politically correct' and 'being sensitive to the worldview of others' are going to be able to find some solace in these two wordy nerdy stuffed shirts that the democrats put together.  No expense is too small to insure that we talk a whole lot about reducing expenses and then diddle ourselves for four years not doing a god damn thing about doing it (although to not be cynical about it what the hell could they really do, anyway).  

It's all identity politics as Louis has reminded us.  Where we part is that there is anything beyond that.  Heddle have you considered voting for the biggest Nascar fan?  Fuck it, which one plays the banjo?  I wanna vote for which ever one had the biggest mater bushes last year.  Do any of them like Tobasco sauce?  Who's got the highest score on Galaga?  Most eyebrow mites?  Whatever floats your boat, it's your little narrative you know so the world is your oyster.  Choose your own adventure, prove it's real by virtue of action and suspended disbelief.

 
Quote
wille he tells me that the doers and thinkers say moving is the next best thing to being free


just like some kinda proto-nookular pomo pauli principle, and stuff.

End of the day, it doesn't matter what the brand is, it's the same old shit.  I've met a lot of squirrels and I am pretty sure none of those little bastards have ever voted.  They're doing great!

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,01:17   

Quote (American Saddlebred @ Oct. 03 2008,00:10)
Blah...show up...crow victory while citing no examples...disappear...even Joe Paterno can at least come up with new plays for his playbook...yawn...

As someone who generally identifies himself as a conservative, I thought watching Palin was like watching a retard trying to race Usain Bolt.  On the other side, I was extremely disappointed with Biden...but it was on an entirely different level...they both sucked if you ask me...but one sucked way more.  I 100% agree with Blipey's points.

<edit to add advance apology for abuse of sports analogies>

I certainly lean liberal and that may account for my thinking that Biden didn't suck.  I was disappointed in a couple of his non-answers, but he actually answered more questions than I thought he would (or maybe it just seemed that way compared to his opponent).

When asked about promises they would have to go back on, Biden actually mentioned (in passing) an item that they will probably not uphold.  Granted, not giving as much foreign aid as you said you were going to is not really what Gwen was after with the question.  OTOH, I didn't really expect a politician to answer that question so my disappointment level was rather low.  It would be nice if he did answer, but it wasn't going to happen.  Palin, on the same question, didn't even acknowledge it and spent time talking about what she would do.  Yes, that's tangentially related, but she spoke about the same things she'd just talked about in the previous 2 questions--energy policy.

Biden generally had answers, maybe not answers that all of us like, but he gave out a bit of real information.  Information that may or may not turn out to be true (Tax plans, spending plans, etc.), but real info that we can hold him accountable for.  Palin couldn't even be bothered to work up a single detail relating to much of anything.  In this, she reminded me several times of Ftk (I guess you'll be flattered, Ftk, but you shouldn't be.).

She even waffled on Gay Marriage.  Biden came out and said something concrete--pro equal rights, con on gay marriage.  (Personally I think that's a silly distinction-- marriage being almost wholly a legal status, if you're going to give them all the legal protections, why not the name?)  Palin was hesitant but eventually said much the same thing.  Then, when asked if they agreed on the status of gays in society, she avoided answering.  Why?

There were things Biden didn't accomplish in this debate, but many of them were things that no politician accomplishes in their debates (by plan): specific details of policy (health care, education, etc).  But, Biden made it seem like he either had a plan or had thought seriously about a plan in many of those cases.  Palin made it seem like she needed someone to give her a map in order to find the issues, let alone a plan to solve the problems they harbor.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,03:03   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 02 2008,23:04)
Oh, now blipey, you're just sooooo jealous that we have a hot chick who is not only *hawt*, but obviously knows her stuff and can hold her own with one of the good 'ol boys from Washington.  I think her personal touch of telling the public that she *isn't* a Washington pure bred is certainly a plus.  We're sick of the shit going on at the top.

She represents change, and like Biden said....he'll "never change".


:p  :p  :p

This is basically what I don't understand about USA politics.

Somehow, they've (McCain) managed to convince people like FTK that they represent "change" despite the fact that McCain has voted with the current administration 90% of the time and is quite obviously (look at his campaign staff if nothing else) a good 'ol boy from Washington. How can voting the same party back in with more or less the same policies be called "change"?

Beats me. In a kind of perverse way (that and I don't live in the USA) I almost hope McCain wins this one, just so Obama is not saddled with the utter mess that the current government has brought about. Almost hope so anyway.

 
Quote
We're sick of the shit going on at the top.

I knew you were delusional FTK, but really? Do you really think a man who surrounds himself with the people who helped caused the current crisis and who voted with the current president 90% of the time will really fix any of that?

FTK, can you name a piece of legislation that McCain has supported in his couple of decades in the house that you would recognise as following your agenda for "CHANGE"?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,05:28   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 02 2008,23:18)
lol....even when I do know more than 'squat", you twist every word I say.

Been fun, blipster...never change.  Night luv.

It's simple Ftk: you say that Palin kicked Biden's ass, some of us would like to know with what Palin kicked Biden's ass.

About the change thing:
I wonder why people are focussed on that mantra so much. I see people calling McCain "brave" because he broke with his party 10% of the time, while Obama apperantly didn't do that. But isn't the only thing that matters if the change is actually good? For example: wanting rape to be legalised is certainly change, but not really good hmm?

oldman:
 
Quote
Beats me. In a kind of perverse way (that and I don't live in the USA) I almost hope McCain wins this one, just so Obama is not saddled with the utter mess that the current government has brought about. Almost hope so anyway.

So he can make it worse?

blipey:
 
Quote
There were things Biden didn't accomplish in this debate, but many of them were things that no politician accomplishes in their debates (by plan): specific details of policy (health care, education, etc).

Indeed, but as a politician you really have to watch out with things like that. If you bring up the details, people are going to hold you on that, and if you break them for whatever reasons (for example, there is a 700 billion dollar gap), you're f*cked. That's bad for politicians, but good for the people. Afterall, they then know exactly what they get if that person gets elected. But for a politician it's better to keep things vague. Although giving a certain amount of details is good for politicians as well. For example, the McCain camp keeps saying that Obama would raise the burden for middle-class family's although the Obama camp keeps saying the opposite. Now if either one of them would actually have evidence for what they're saying, they can easily debunk there counterpart.

Edit: wow, this post is a mess. Excuse et moi folks.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,05:48   

Quote (Assassinator @ Oct. 03 2008,05:28)
So he can make it worse?

No, not really, but if Obama wins and things don't go at all well then it all gets blamed on Obama (short memories) and the current lot get back into power in 4 years and can start to ruin it all over again. There might simply be nothing that can be done in only 4 years to fix problems of the magnitude they'll be faced with.  

Whereas at least if McCain wins and everybody is wearing sackcloth in 3 years it might keep their party out of power for twenty years, if things go badly for them (as per the Conservatives in the UK). Like I said however, I have the luxury of this view as I don't live in the USA.

So, no, I hope Obama wins but I also hope that the mess he will inherit won't mean that in 4 years the current lot get back in on the basis that "Obama could not fix it, he made it worse" when in fact it's likely that 4 years is simply too short a time to make a difference.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,06:05   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 03 2008,00:30)
End of the day, it doesn't matter what the brand is, it's the same old shit.  I've met a lot of squirrels and I am pretty sure none of those little bastards have ever voted.  They're doing great!

Yes, Erasmus, we know.  You've said that before.  

Shouldn't you be down at the surplus store stocking up on K-rations and Sterno?

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,06:09   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 03 2008,03:03)
This is basically what I don't understand about USA politics.

Somehow, they've (McCain) managed to convince people like FTK that they represent "change" despite the fact that McCain has voted with the current administration 90% of the time and is quite obviously (look at his campaign staff if nothing else) a good 'ol boy from Washington. How can voting the same party back in with more or less the same policies be called "change"?

Well, it is simple really. Bush/Cheney were held in thrall to the oil industry.  From the looks of his campaign staff, McCain will be owned by the banking and financial services, as well as the gaming, industries (see Rick Davis).

That is change we can believe in!

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,06:38   

Assassinator,

I completely agree that there are things politicians won't say--and wouldn't say even if you were torturing them.  That's why I said I didn't think Biden sucked.  He exceeded my expectations of actually saying anything.  While it's sad that you can win a debate by saying only a little, it sure beats saying nothing.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,06:45   

IMHO Palin did MUCH better presenting herself than I would have predicted on the basis of her incoherent television interviews. She does an excellent job maintaining calm eye contact with the camera (this reflects her television training) and, as I said before, has a naturally sunny smile and presentation. That is a big stage - they don't get any bigger - and she did a good job on that score. She has a way of defiantly asserting herself no matter how ridiculous the content of her statements (any of this sounding familiar?), and I can see how lots of people like her.  

I think the difference is that the debate format, in contrast with a television interview with an informed interviewer, permits the candidate to use each question as a launching point for a two minute memorized speech. That is certainly what Palin did throughout - she often simply ignored the question and segued into a topic area in which she had memorized and practiced some spunky responses. Biden too, to a lesser extent, was obviously operating from well memorized scripts. But that's how it is done. And that is a format that allows Palin to present her strengths. There were responses during which she lapsed into near incoherence* - but maintained that spunky glow regardless. I'm not surprised Ftk likes her. In fact, as she said above, it is the spunky glow Ftk recalls, not the content.

Palin has some speech characteristics that, for me, are fingernails on chalkboard. She has a habit lapsing into backward sentence structures, e.g. "I'm not one to attribute every man -- activity of man to the changes in the climate." That's backward, and she does that a lot. I also feel a little ill when she lapses into that "gosh darn it" voice and assumes the vocal tone employed by kindergarten teachers addressing kids just before nap time, and she does that a lot too. But I can see how a constituency that is accustomed to being infantilized enjoys that too.

That said, there is a considerable distance between demonstrating that you aren't entirely clueless and "kicking somebody's ass." Biden more than held his own and demonstrated a LOT of restraint not going after Palin's many inaccuracies. He also avoided being baited by a tone that, at times, bordered upon disrespectful.

And there is a huge distance between demonstrating that you aren't entirely clueless, and perhaps have some charisma (we already knew that), and being qualified to handle the massive complexities and nuances of the presidency - complexities that aren't always amenable to memorized responses. Unfortunately for the country, were McCain/Palin to prevail and then McCain expire, it will be Interview Palin who must grapple with those complexities, not Speechifying Palin. Interview Palin was not very impressive.

*Regarding Biden's assertion that McCain does not support provisions to help homeowners facing bankruptcy: "That is not so. But that's just a quick answer. I want to talk about, again, my record on energy versus -- your ticket's energy -- ticket, also, I think that this is important to come back to, with that energy policy plan, again, that was voted for in '05."

Eta: footnote above.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,07:29   

The FTK Palin Debate Flow Chart

It reminds me of the richardthughes ID flowchart!

I'm not surprised.  Palin has the data loaded into her like a talking Barbie, and when her string was pulled, noise came out.  CBS & CNN viewer polls gave the win to Biden.  And so do I.



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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,07:53   

Quote
Somehow, they've (McCain) managed to convince people like FTK that they represent "change" despite the fact that McCain has voted with the current administration 90% of the time and is quite obviously (look at his campaign staff if nothing else) a good 'ol boy from Washington. How can voting the same party back in with more or less the same policies be called "change"?



Here's the deal, folks.  You're not going to see a lot of "change" regardless of who gets elected into office.

That's just a fact...we're screwed because of the situation we're in with the economy and the war.  Obama promises to get our troups out, but I guarantee you he's not going to be pulling them as soon as he promises, because at this point it would be frickin' stupid not to be *sure* that things have stablized over there.  He knows that.  Papa Bush pulled back too soon years ago, and we've paid for it ever since.

The economy is a disaster, and that most certainly does not all fall entirely on Bush and the republicans. You're all well aware of that regardless of how much you like to moan about Bush.  Both sides of the isle have made serious mistakes in regard to the economy.

Whoever gets elected is inheriting a flippin' mess and because of all the corruption on both sides, hands are tied in regard to how much "change" is going to happen.

I like Palin because, of all four candidates, she is a breath of fresh air.  She's spunky, and I don't get the feeling that she's afraid to confront the bull shit that goes on on capital hill.  She's not buried in debt to people who have supported her for eons, and she'll speak her mind without worrying about offending some joker who has her in his pocket.  

She's here to represent people like *me*, and that's a welcome change from the pasty, plastic clones on capital hill.  Of all four candidates, I believe *she's* the one who will go out on a limb for the average joe.

I think she's great....

[Oh, and I don't really think she kicked Biden's ass, but she did *much*, *much* better than I expected.  I was just messin' with you folks because it easy to do so...kinda fun too.  Shame on me.]

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,07:56   

Quote
CBS & CNN viewer polls gave the win to Biden.


OMG!  What a surprise....I'm shocked, shocked, I tell ya.

ROTFLMAO!

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:04   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,13:53)
Quote
Somehow, they've (McCain) managed to convince people like FTK that they represent "change" despite the fact that McCain has voted with the current administration 90% of the time and is quite obviously (look at his campaign staff if nothing else) a good 'ol boy from Washington. How can voting the same party back in with more or less the same policies be called "change"?



Here's the deal, folks.  You're not going to see a lot of "change" regardless of who gets elected into office.

That's just a fact...we're screwed because of the situation we're in with the economy and the war.  Obama promises to get our troups out, but I guarantee you he's not going to be pulling them as soon as he promises, because at this point it would be frickin' stupid not to be *sure* that things have stablized over there.  He knows that.  Papa Bush pulled back too soon years ago, and we've paid for it ever since.

The economy is a disaster, and that most certainly does not all fall entirely on Bush and the republicans. You're all well aware of that regardless of how much you like to moan about Bush.  Both sides of the isle have made serious mistakes in regard to the economy.

Whoever gets elected is inheriting a flippin' mess and because of all the corruption on both sides, hands are tied in regard to how much "change" is going to happen.

[SNIP]

{checks temperature}

{looks at self in mirror}

{feels for lumps}

{finds lumps...oh no! I know what those lumps are, phew}

{books check up with GP}

Wow an FTK post I don't completely disagree with. I must be sick. All the Palin-loving-anti-intellectualism-home-town-folksiness I disagree with, but that stuff before that kicks in isn't all bad.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:09   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 02 2008,23:46)
     
Quote (blipey @ Oct. 02 2008,22:40)
     
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 02 2008,22:27)
OMG...Sarah soooooo held her own tonight.  If I may be so bold, I THINK SHE KICKED BIDEN'S ASS!!!  

She must have been premenstrual during the Couric interview...she didn't even look like the same person.  Makes you wonder how that interview was conducted.  

I will say though, that Joe (if I may call him that...lol) was quite the gentleman, and he didn't talk down to her.

I'M SO WOUND UP THAT I'LL *NEVER* SLEEP TONIGHT!!!1111!!!!  I'll definitely be needin' my Monster drinks tomorrow...

Of course you did.  Any specific moments you'd like to share with us.

Please, I know evidence is a foreign thing for you, but I gotta know.

PLEASE.  PLEASE.  PLEASE.  Tell us one specific question in which she "kicked his ass".

Oh please.

Oh heavens, I can't be bothered with trying to remember every little thing she said!  I'm a creationist don't ya know...short term memory and all.  All I know is she looked good, winked a lot and smiled pretty.  


BAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAA..!!!!  

[/ftk in blipster's twisted mind]


But then you don't go on to contradict him.  To show him that he's wrong in any sort of way.  If someone accuses me of something that I think is patently false about me, I usually like to defend myself.  I know you two have a rather adversarial relationship, but still...if you think it is so untrue, why not have a subtantive post showing otherwise?


(Moving to a different post)

 
Quote
Oh, now blipey, you're just sooooo jealous that we have a hot chick who is not only *hawt*


Ignorning the obvious what-the-hell-does-this-have-to-do-with-compentency question, am I really that alone in not finding her to be hot?  She's not some horrible troll but I really don't see the appeal.  To each their own and whatever, but I just don't see it.  And by the way, just having this conversation makes me feel the dumb.

 
Quote
but obviously knows her stuff and can hold her own with one of the good 'ol boys from Washington.


O.o

...

...


I...I just can't...


     
Quote
I think her personal touch of telling the public that she *isn't* a Washington pure bred is certainly a plus.


Yes, she has said that she isn't one of the Washington insiders, but just because she's said it doesn't mean anything.  She can tell the public whatever she likes; that alone doesn't make it true.  Nearly all politicians say they aren't one of the Beltway insiders or government fatcats...that's what everyone loves to hear.  So, what does it matter if someone says it?

   
Quote
We're sick of the shit going on at the top.


The top you say?  Which top would that be?  For that matter, what 'shit' is going on, at said top, of which you are sick?  (I know that isn't the clearest sentence but I was just having fun with the wording...long and short, what shit are you talking about?)



I know this is cliche at this point, but I just don't get FtK.  I have avoided commenting in her thread because sharper minds than mine are doing the dirty work and I just don't think I can handle it.  I'll admit, I even hesitated responding to the above because I know the futility and that I'm just furthering that persecution complex.  But, really...I just don't get it.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:09   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,07:56)
Quote
CBS & CNN viewer polls gave the win to Biden.


OMG!  What a surprise....I'm shocked, shocked, I tell ya.

ROTFLMAO!

Why? Don't you trust the viewers? It's not the networks opinion, it's the viewers?

Faced with evidence, FTK can't say why it's wrong IT JUST IS!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:10   

FtK says, "She's here to represent people like *me*, "

Multiple instances of incoherence? Check.

Demonstrated inability to converse beyond canned/cut-pasted arguments?  Check.

Veneer of folksiness?  Check.

Refusal to respond to specific, substantive questions?  Check.

An admitted outsider who claims to be more knowledgeable in a given area than those who've devoted their life's work to it?  Check.

FtK's right . . . Palin really *does* represent people like her.

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:14   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 03 2008,01:30)
just like some kinda proto-nookular pomo pauli principle, and stuff.

Palin couldn't pronounce it anymore than the current occupant of the White House can.  Is there something in the platform of the Republican Party that says mispronouncing nuclear is a requirement for membership?

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:25   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 03 2008,08:09)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,07:56)
 
Quote
CBS & CNN viewer polls gave the win to Biden.


OMG!  What a surprise....I'm shocked, shocked, I tell ya.

ROTFLMAO!

Why? Don't you trust the viewers? It's not the networks opinion, it's the viewers?

Faced with evidence, FTK can't say why it's wrong IT JUST IS!

Get real...everyone knows CBS & CNN are supported by left wingdingers..big time.

Hell, let's take a look at the Drudge poll...

Quote
{{{{DRUDGE POLL}}}} WHO WON THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE?...

BIDEN   28% 94,459
PALIN   70% 232,460
NEITHER 2% 5,676

Total Votes: 332,595


Guess it depends on what poll you point to, and who their viewers or readership consists of.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:33   



--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:36   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,14:25)
[SNIP]

Guess it depends on what poll you point to, and who their viewers or readership consists of.

Which goes to show that polls of this type, which simply tell us what we already knew about what people believe, have zero informative value.

Don't you see through the "debate" and "folksiness", FTK? Don't you see how you're being manipulated? Is the security blanket of identity politics all you care about?

Oh wait, I know the answers to those. Don't trouble yourself. try the simple questions I asked you on your own thread.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:48   

Quote
Don't you see through the "debate" and "folksiness", FTK? Don't you see how you're being manipulated? Is the security blanket of identity politics all you care about?


Dude, I've been "manipulated" by big government for too long now.  We're moving to socialism even as we speak....and Obama wouldn't stop it....doesn't even want to.

I don't want Washington to have so much power.  I want it distributed among the states.  We know what we need, and we don't need the government breathing down our necks telling us what to do and squandering our money.  

I think I'm becoming a confederate...lol.

Sarah supports what I want to see coming from Washington.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:49   

Good one, Heddle.  That big shit eating grin was grinding on me.  Gads...

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:52   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,09:25)
Get real...everyone knows CBS & CNN are supported by left wingdingers..big time.

WOW!, I never knew Glenn Blech was a left wingdinger.  Thankyou for correcting me FtK.

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,08:53   

(Of course this came in as I was typing...always happens that way.  Not at you FtK, but as in Murphy's Law.  Anyway...)

   
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,08:53)

I like Palin because, of all four candidates


There are only two candidates for president, well major party candidates that is.  Obama and McCain.  They will be the ones that are making the majority of decisions.  The VP is important and the choice should not be overlooked, but putting too much stock in Palin (or Biden) and not enough in the actual Presidental aspirant is focused on the wrong thing.


   
Quote
...she is a breath of fresh air.  She's spunky, and I don't get the feeling that she's afraid to confront the bull shit that goes on on capital hill.  She's not buried in debt to people who have supported her for eons, and she'll speak her mind without worrying about offending some joker who has her in his pocket.


There's not much I can say to this as it seems to be your gut feeling.  And I have no problem with what someone feels about a person...except if it were to contradict facts.  I'm still not clear on what specifically about capital hill bothers you and thus how she'll be different.  From her actions and history, she seems pretty like every other politician, just slightly different flavoring.

To be fair, I don't think Obama is some excessively different politician...I do see some areas that have been different and I like those...but he's not so different in the grand scheme of things.  To me, he's the best option right now, but I don't see him as the model all politicans should be.  He's got some ideas and tatics that, if emulated, might raise the quality of politics some, but he still falls into some of the same old habits.

   
Quote
She's here to represent people like *me*, and that's a welcome change from the pasty, plastic clones on capital hill.  Of all four candidates, I believe *she's* the one who will go out on a limb for the average joe


Which average joe?  I'm sure to some groups, I'm pretty average and she could not be much more my opposite if she tried.  I know everyone loves to think that they are the average and that everyone else is like them...but somehow that just doens't work out.

And why do you think she'll go out on a limb for the 'average joe' more than the others?  Are you one of those people that thinks simply because the others have money they don't remember or comprehend difficulties the middle class has?  I never liked the attacks on McCain because of the multi-house comment; simply because you have wealth does not mean you don't care or comprehend.  It's like when people attack celebrities for voicing an opinion.  Just because they are an actor, it doesn't mean that they are ill-informed.  Yes, some are and yes, some rich people don't really seem to care or understand the struggle of the poor or middle class.  But you can't predict those things one income alone.  Actions, past history, and comments will tell you what you need to know.

My apologies if I put words in your mouth and that's not the reason...it just seems to be a common one and a pet peeve I have.  Still, why is it that you see her as willing to do what the others won't?

   
Quote
[Oh, and I don't really think she kicked Biden's ass, but she did *much*, *much* better than I expected.  I was just messin' with you folks because it easy to do so...kinda fun too.  Shame on me.]


Fair enough and well played.  Although, *much*,*much* better than the expected failure isn't necessarily success.  By the way, I'm not saying that you expected her to fail, but most people and commentators did and you are at least implying that you expected so little from her that you were happy with what you got.  Nonetheless, you did a good caricature...of yourself?

It does seem odd though that more than a few of us thought you were serious.  We all based that on evidence of the past...but I guess that's what we get from relying on evidence too much.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,09:40   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,08:48)
 
Dude, I've been "manipulated" by big government for too long now.  

Can you give me an example? Whatever do you mean by that? Does "big government" come into your home and switch TV channels?
   
Quote
We're moving to socialism even as we speak...

Can you give me an example of that?
   
Quote
and Obama wouldn't stop it....doesn't even want to.

Why do you say that?
   
Quote

I don't want Washington to have so much power.

The people you support handed over power (oversight) to the people they were supposed to be regulating. We can see how that worked out.
   
Quote
 I want it distributed among the states.

You've noted before that you would allow "the states" to make individual decisions about abortion, but would be quite happy if they all banned it because "the states decided" and that would be just fine.
   
Quote
We know what we need, and we don't need the government breathing down our necks telling us what to do and squandering our money.  

Why don't you give me an example of
a) Something that more money should be spent on
b) What should be cut-back to pay for that?
   
Quote
I think I'm becoming a confederate...lol.

...    
Quote
Sarah supports what I want to see coming from Washington.

Which is what exactly?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,09:44   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 03 2008,09:40)
...      
Quote
Sarah supports what I want to see coming from Washington.

Which is what exactly?

That would be "hawt" air.

And Palin (aka Bush Lite) is full of it.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,09:46   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,14:48)
Quote
Don't you see through the "debate" and "folksiness", FTK? Don't you see how you're being manipulated? Is the security blanket of identity politics all you care about?


Dude, I've been "manipulated" by big government for too long now.  We're moving to socialism even as we speak....and Obama wouldn't stop it....doesn't even want to.

I don't want Washington to have so much power.  I want it distributed among the states.  We know what we need, and we don't need the government breathing down our necks telling us what to do and squandering our money.  

I think I'm becoming a confederate...lol.

Sarah supports what I want to see coming from Washington.

So you don't mind being manipulated as long as it's someone you think is like you doing the manipulating.

Interesting.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,09:52   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,06:25)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 03 2008,08:09)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,07:56)
 
Quote
CBS & CNN viewer polls gave the win to Biden.


OMG!  What a surprise....I'm shocked, shocked, I tell ya.

ROTFLMAO!

Why? Don't you trust the viewers? It's not the networks opinion, it's the viewers?

Faced with evidence, FTK can't say why it's wrong IT JUST IS!

Get real...everyone knows CBS & CNN are supported by left wingdingers..big time.

Hell, let's take a look at the Drudge poll...

 
Quote
{{{{DRUDGE POLL}}}} WHO WON THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE?...

BIDEN   28% 94,459
PALIN   70% 232,460
NEITHER 2% 5,676

Total Votes: 332,595


Guess it depends on what poll you point to, and who their viewers or readership consists of.

"4.5 billion, 6 thousand, it's all arbitrary*. No one's really 'right' (at least when my argument is losing)".







*I know, I know, FTK very likely doesn't know what this word means. You get the idea.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,09:54   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,06:48)
Quote
Don't you see through the "debate" and "folksiness", FTK? Don't you see how you're being manipulated? Is the security blanket of identity politics all you care about?


Dude, I've been "manipulated" by big government for too long now.  We're moving to socialism even as we speak....

Next thing ya know, the gummint will be closing all the churches and handing out mandatory marijuana injections! It all started when they fluoridated our water!!

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,09:55   

Quote (Paul Flocken @ Oct. 03 2008,06:52)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,09:25)
Get real...everyone knows CBS & CNN are supported by left wingdingers..big time.

WOW!, I never knew Glenn Blech was a left wingdinger.  Thankyou for correcting me FtK.

To FTK and millions like her, 'left wingdinger' simply means "they're currently saying something that displeases me".

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,10:04   

What terrifies me is that even otherwise intelligent people are falling into this idiotic game of identity politics. It terrifies me when it's done abroad, and it terrifies me even more when it's done here in the UK.

The shallowness of thought around the political issues of the day reminds me of the shallowness of thought around religious issues. Why people let themselves be fooled is beyond me. Admitting to compromise isn't the same thing as willing blinkered gullibility (and that's where 'Ras and I really differ ;-) ).

Louis

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Bye.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,10:19   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 03 2008,10:04)
What terrifies me is that even otherwise intelligent people are falling into this idiotic game of identity politics. It terrifies me when it's done abroad, and it terrifies me even more when it's done here in the UK.

The identity politics game is just one more example of the success of the anti-intellectuals in the US. Frankly, very few "intelligent people" have fallen for the faux folksiness of Gov. Bush Lite, but it resonates quite well in the "I'd rather not think about it" crowd. It's the same process that allows non-thinkers to become instant experts on evolutionary theory, philosophy of science, and other rather complex subjects.

I think I will be re-reading "What's the Matter with Kansas?" sometime soon. The ability of the Republicans to package their anti-populist policies in fake populist packages like Bush and Palin is remarkable. People like FtK, who told us how the downturn in the housing economy has affected her family directly, still cannot begin to understand that these fakers do not have their best interests at heart. That's some powerful Kool-aid, and the Republicans have patented the recipe.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,10:45   

I disagree with the general charge of anti-intellectualism.

Like many here, I work among the smartest people on the planet—in my case in a national lab. I don’t want any of them governing me. Or, like WFB quipped, I’d take my chances with the first 200 names of the Boston phonebook over the Harvard faculty.

But this is not necessarily anti-intellectualism. It can be recognition that neither high IQ (especially) or an encyclopedic command of facts has a significant positive  correlation  with the ability to lead or govern. That is based on evidence: to first order everyone I work with has high IQ—but they all have different political opinions. Everyone on the SCOTUS has a high IQ and is legal expert, and yet we have many 5-4 decisions. Politics always, or almost always, comes down to the dreaded world-view. Intellectuals may be able to toss a prettier word salad, but that’s about it.

For further evidence go over to the brainiac of blogs and the bastion of rationality (Pharyngula) and start a debate about libertarianism, animal testing, or gun rights. Now imagine those smart, highly educated people are our congress, and what do you get? Name calling, nasty insults, apoplectic rants, and, most telling, no consensus. In other words, nothing different from any other group discussing politics.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,10:51   

Somewhat off topic, this is incredibly creepy.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,10:54   

Does anyone have access to The Scientist blog?  I'd like to hear about this entry but can't register at work.

From what I can glean, it's a post about who is advising McCain on Science, something I'd like to know.


(I've found Obama's list and I like what I see.)

One of my biggest frustrations with Bush has been interaction with science.  I get so angry and frustrated about how much interference this administration has shown in scientific* areas.  The agendas that they have pushed that went directly in the face of contrary evidence and either had to have that evidence changed, omitted, or just out right ignored.  Hell, that last sentence pretty much describes the decision making process they used at all times.

To be honest, I didn't think McCain would follow the path Bush has played...but he really doesn't seem like the same guy that ran in 2000.  I respected McCain there and felt that Rove really slimed McCain.  I could have even voted for McCain in 2000 I think.  But the McCain of 2008...I really don't trust him and to be honest, I'd kind of disappointed in that.  His secrecy, his actions...it makes me feel like he'd keep up the same level of interference and political manipulation that we've seen for the last 8 years.  I have no dobut about Palin doing just that.

* Other areas too but specific to science for this topic.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,11:16   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,16:45)
I disagree with the general charge of anti-intellectualism.

Like many here, I work among the smartest people on the planet—in my case in a national lab. I don’t want any of them governing me. Or, like WFB quipped, I’d take my chances with the first 200 names of the Boston phonebook over the Harvard faculty.

But this is not necessarily anti-intellectualism. It can be recognition that neither high IQ (especially) or an encyclopedic command of facts has a significant positive  correlation  with the ability to lead or govern. That is based on evidence: to first order everyone I work with has high IQ—but they all have different political opinions. Everyone on the SCOTUS has a high IQ and is legal expert, and yet we have many 5-4 decisions. Politics always, or almost always, comes down to the dreaded world-view. Intellectuals may be able to toss a prettier word salad, but that’s about it.

For further evidence go over to the brainiac of blogs and the bastion of rationality (Pharyngula) and start a debate about libertarianism, animal testing, or gun rights. Now imagine those smart, highly educated people are our congress, and what do you get? Name calling, nasty insults, apoplectic rants, and, most telling, no consensus. In other words, nothing different from any other group discussing politics.

Surprise! You disagree.

Dumb =/= anti-intellectual.

Smart =/= intellectual.

The rest of your caricatures are just excuses for your own lack of engagement and desire for convenient faux relativism.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,11:30   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,10:45)
I disagree with the general charge of anti-intellectualism.

Disagree all you want; your opinion is worth exactly as much as mine.

Note that I did not say that ALL those folks who will be voting for McSame and Bush Lite were unthinking. Both you know and I know some smart folks who have looked at the issues and who will be voting for them because that slate reflects their stand on the issues a bit better. But that does not mitigate the fact that the Republicans have been a party of anti-intellectualism and anti-science for a couple of decades now. Beginning with Reagan and continuing now with Bush Lite, they have made no bones about their electoral appeals to the unthinking.

Note that I also did not say anything about having the folks running your national lab governing us. Please put that strawman down. My comment specifically dealt with the appeals of the Republicans to cultural identity politics rather than to substantive issues.

Finally, if you really think that the first 200 names of the Boston phonebook would yield a better president than the people on the Harvard faculty, you have set a very low bar for success at the presidential level. The performance of the current occupant unfortunately barely rises to that level. The performance of a sound-bite slinging airheaded cheerleader, who probably would disagree with most of McCain's positions on many issues if they were presented to her stripped of his name, would almost certainly be lower than that. If that's what you want, we'll continue to disagree, I'm certain.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,11:37   

(I type too much and too slow...this was for Heddle and Albotrossity and started before Louis and Albatrossity responded more clearly and with less rambling.  Oh well, off to lunch)

I think you both have some points, but there are a differences between intelligence, anti-intellectualism, and emotion that perhaps aren't addressed.

Intelligenece does not prevent you from being wrong, from holding unfounded opinions, or reacting solely on your emotions.  I think we can all name very intelligent people, ones that can handle complex concepts and extract new and meaningful insights, that have acted irrationally or against evidence.  An intelligent person may look deeper into an issue than others and weigh the problems more, but that, in and of itself, doesn't mean they'll make a better decision than others.

As to anti-intellectualism, I think albatrossity has something of a point.  I look to most conservative commentators and hear intellectual as a pejorative.  'Ivory tower', 'elite' ivory league', and the like are thrown around on talkshows and the in blogosphere as a way of attack.  I don't work with the smartest people on the planet and although ancedotal, I can say without a doubt that there are people that are happy to not be a 'smart' person as they put it.  People who shun learning after college, or even high shcool.

Al Gore was thought to be too intelligent and that cost him votes.  Obama and Biden, apparently, have had the same complaint about them.  In my eyes, the anti-intellectualism that is the problem is the automatic dismissal of the opinoins and work of anyone more intelligent than yourself.  I think it comes from an insecurity about admitting someone is more intelligent than yourself.  There is an ingrained feeling of self-worth about intelligence that I think is a problem.  People seem to feel like they are less worthy as a person if someone else is smarter.  I, personally, don't believe that, but I understand the emotion.

My point is tied to the last bit, emotion.  Regardless of the intelligence of the person, emotion probably has the last say.  No matter how rational and thoughtful we are, the right situation can overcome our reason and leave us with nothing more than our emotions.  

A person that is intellectual is often seen as distant and smug, even if they have never done anything like that before.  The intimidation that many people seem to feel around intelligent people becomes internalized as a target of frustration and politicians know how to exploit it.  No group is free of this bias and people of all sorts have used it to their advantage.

All in all, you are right that an intelligent person is not inherently a good leader.  But to pretend that many vocal Bush supporters don't harbor or exploit anti-intellectual sentiments might be a bit much.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,11:51   

Not rambling at all, nice summary of many of the issues.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,12:21   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,11:45)
But this is not necessarily anti-intellectualism. It can be recognition that neither high IQ (especially) or an encyclopedic command of facts has a significant positive  correlation  with the ability to lead or govern. That is based on evidence: to first order everyone I work with has high IQ—but they all have different political opinions. Everyone on the SCOTUS has a high IQ and is legal expert, and yet we have many 5-4 decisions. Politics always, or almost always, comes down to the dreaded world-view. Intellectuals may be able to toss a prettier word salad, but that’s about it.

Not your finest bit of reasoning, Heddle. What your experience establishes is that IQ is orthogonal to political philosophy, not that it is orthogonal to leadership ability.

That said, I agree leadership ability is very likely largely orthogonal to IQ. It doesn't follow that IQ has no bearing upon the effectiveness and consequences of one's leadership, however. There is likely a cutoff - one that lies considerably above average IQ IMHO - below which effective leadership in a role as complex as the presidency becomes impossible. And there is probably an IQ level above which additional ability doesn't contribute further (150?). I would argue that, in between, leadership qualities being equal, higher IQ is likely to result in a more effective outcome of that leadership.

Of course, these assertions are difficult to establish empirically, given the complexities of "all else being equal" in a domain where uniqueness rules (human personality).

ETA: There is probably literature on this question worth looking into. And an edit for clarity.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,12:22   

I am not equating smart people with intellectualism. The smart people I mentioned are also intellectuals, at least in my definition of the word. They are smart and curious and informed and passionate and well educated and engaged. (I know that to be true of my colleagues, and concede it to be true of Pharyngula commenters.) The point remains that they display no (in my estimation) statistically significant bump in their leadership or governance or compromise or consensus-reaching skills over a random selection of “ordinary folk.”

As for those who disliked and didn’t vote for Al Gore, it wasn’t because he was too smart. (Hardly.) Rather, it was because he was perceived as creepy and condescending.

Bill Clinton was (is) very smart and popular. Why? In large part because he connects with people and he knew how to lead. You can dismiss this as identity politics but nevertheless it is true, and his personal popularity allowed him to run an effective government. Regan was not nearly as cerebral, but just as popular, and again an effective president, and again in part because of a connection that had nothing to do with intellectualism. Carter was an intellectual and a disaster in the Whitehouse. (Yes I know, these are just my opinions.)

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,12:25   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,10:22)
As for those who disliked and didn’t vote for Al Gore, it wasn’t because he was too smart. (Hardly.) Rather, it was because he was perceived as creepy and condescending.

While on the other hand, Bush was a cool dude you could have a beer with.

How'd that work out?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,12:31   

From my experience [which of course is limited cuz' I'm a friggin' creationist loon who never leaves my church], I've often found that those with very high IQs often lack a great deal of common sense and don't always make the best decisions.  They also seem to have trouble keeping their marriages and family together.  It would be interesting to see some research into this.

My uncle had an extremely high IQ...was banned from Vegas due to the ease in which he counted cards.  He patented several inventions, etc.  But, the dude's personal life was a bit of a screwed up mess, and he made some weird decisions that seemed senseless.  You guys would have liked him...he never bought into the God stuff.  Right before he died (he knew his days were numbered), he came to have a visit with my parents and questioned and talked with them about religion, God, etc..  kinda weird conversations.  The dude actually asked my husband and I if we thought Jesus ever experienced a hard on...*sheesh*.  I think he was losing it at that point.

My husband's good friend's father is another one of those with an *extremely* high IQ.  His life is a mess as well.

Just an observation, and this is probably not the norm, but it would be an interesting thing to survey.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,12:33   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,13:22)
As for those who disliked and didn’t vote for Al Gore, it wasn’t because he was too smart. (Hardly.) Rather, it was because he was perceived as creepy and condescending.


As a quick aside, I didn't say Gore lost soley because of being too intelligent; I said he lost votes.  And the condescending thing is my point.  IMO, that perception of condescension was because he came off as the dreaded intellectual to some people.  If it wasn't that, what was he being condescending about?

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,12:38   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,13:31)
From my experience...

My uncle had an extremely high IQ...

My husband's good friend's father...

My grandmother lived to 98. She chased her breakfast with a shot of Jack, smoked 2 packs of unfiltered Camels every day 'till the day she died and chewed a cigar after dinner.

So the notion that smoking causes health problems is bullshit.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,12:39   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,10:31)
From my experience [which of course is limited cuz' I'm a friggin' creationist loon who never leaves my church], I've often found that those with very high IQs often lack a great deal of common sense and don't always make the best decisions.  They also seem to have trouble keeping their marriages and family together.

FTK, please answer me this.

What parts of the country have the highest rates of divorce and the highest rates of domestic violence?

Feel free to take a little time on Google to find the answer.

PS: While you're at it, please tell me what state in the US has the highest rape rate?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,12:43   

Don't need to google.  Blue states...mid-west highest.  Christians the highest.  Course, the majority of people in the US consider themselves Christians.

You have to consider that a lot of people live together rather than get married today, so that screws up the results for sure.  Liberals and non-Christians would certainly be those who avoid marriage and go for the living together arrangement.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,12:47   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,10:43)
Don't need to google.  Blue states...mid-west highest.  

Wrong. You DO need to Google. Try again.

Quote

You have to consider that a lot of people live together rather than get married today, so that screws up the results for sure.  Liberals and non-Christians would certainly be those who avoid marriage and go for the living together arrangement.


Your ignorance is painful. Things do not become true because your ideology demands them.

Again, highest rape rate? Got an answer?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,12:48   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,13:31)
From my experience [which of course is limited cuz' I'm a friggin' creationist loon who never leaves my church], I've often found that those with very high IQs often lack a great deal of common sense and don't always make the best decisions.  They also seem to have trouble keeping their marriages and family together.  It would be interesting to see some research into this.


I can tell you stories about dumb people making dumb decisions...so?  We both have anecdotes which means practically nothing.  Yes, high IQ people can make terrible decisions and average and low IQ people can make good ones...we haven't established causation or even correlation.

People have marriage problems.  Period.  It doesn't matter your religion, your intelligence, your age, you anything...marriage can be tough.  Life can be tough.

And if you are willing insinuate that most intelligent people have marriage problems because of a few you've seen, try not to get upset next time that someone implies all Christians have marriage troubles when the next megachruch pastor gets caught in extramarital bliss.  It's the same type of "logic".

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,12:51   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,12:31)
From my experience [which of course is limited cuz' I'm a friggin' creationist loon who never leaves my church], I've often found that those with very high IQs often lack a great deal of common sense and don't always make the best decisions.  They also seem to have trouble keeping their marriages and family together.  It would be interesting to see some research into this.

Indeed, it would. I suggest that you do that, and then see if the results fit your preconceptions.

Spottedwind's comments about the perception of condescension are bang-on. It doesn't take very much at all for someone who is on the losing side of an argument with an expert to bring out the complaint that the expert is being elitist, condescending, etc. This usually has nothing at all to do with the facts of the argument. But the average American almost always thinks that he/she, being blessed with an abundance of "common sense", knows more than any expert. When the opposite is pointed out to him/her, using factual arguments, the average American typically responds with non-factual accusations of elitism, condescension, and a lack of common sense on the part of the expert. When this is translated into the political arena, we get Bush, Palin, and the accompanying decline into Third World status.

One can only hope that the election outcome will be so one-sided that the Republicans will finally abandon their race to the bottom. Who can they nominate next who will be as feeble as Palin? Name #132 in the Boston phonebook? Let's hope not.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,13:01   

Did you do that research yet, FTK? I was able to Google the answers in about 45 seconds.

(Added in edit: well, when I posted this message, FTK was logged on. Now she's not. I guess she found the answers and ran away. It's okay, the questions will be waiting for her when she comes back.)

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,13:12   

McCain's fallen 3 points today on Intrade. It's now 31 to 68.

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,13:12   

Honest to God, I meant Red states, Arden.  I already knew that...that's why I said midwest Christians.  Then I went on to explain what I think may affect those results.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,13:18   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 03 2008,13:12)
McCain's fallen 3 points today on Intrade. It's now 31 to 68.

Oh, not to worry, Steve.  Obama will take this election...the media will ensure that.

Funny thing is that most democrats used to like McCain because he crossed the isle on several issues.  Shoot, even hard core right winger Ann Coulter didn't want him due to his Democratic views.  The guy might have actually helped with bipartisanship to a degree.  Obama on the other hand is as liberal as they come...that's not helpful in bringing the two sides together.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,13:28   

Diane and I celebrated our 24th anniversary this past June. We've both earned Ph.D.s. We're just a paradox given Ftk's views.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,13:30   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,11:12)
Honest to God, I meant Red states, Arden.  I already knew that...that's why I said midwest Christians.  Then I went on to explain what I think may affect those results.

Thank you for the clarification, but the Midwest is not dominant in this ranking. The bottom worst:

Quote

30   Missouri        26,324   5.0
 31    West Virginia    9,179   5.0
32   North Carolina  36,292   5.1
33     Colorado        18,795   5.1
34   Georgia         37,001   5.2
35   Oregon          16,307   5.3
36   Texas           99,073   5.4
37   Alaska           3,354   5.5
38   Washington      29,976   5.6
39   Mississippi     15,212   5.7
40   Kentucky        22,211   5.8
41    Arizona         23,725   5.8
42   Florida         82,963   5.9
43   New Mexico       9,882   6.0
44   Idaho            7,075   6.2
45     Alabama         26,116   6.2
46   Indiana            ***   6.4
47   Wyoming          3,071   6.5
48   Tennessee       34,167   6.6
49   Oklahoma        21,855   6.7
50   Arkansas        17,458   7.1
51   Nevada          13,061   9.0


Lowest rates?:

Quote
 1   Massachusetts  14,530    2.4    
 2   Connecticut     9,095    2.8    
 3   New Jersey     23,899    3.0    
 4   Rhode Island    3,231    3.2    
 5   New York       59,195    3.3    
 6    Pennsylvania   40,040    3.3    
 7   Wisconsin      17,478    3.4    
 8    North Dakota    2,201    3.4    
 9   Maryland       17,439    3.5    
10   Minnesota      16,217    3.6    


Yeah. Living together before getting married. Not getting pregnant at 16 and marrying instantly. Terrible thing. Only libs and nonchristians do it. Destroys families.

Highest rape (and incest) rate: Alaska.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,13:33   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 03 2008,11:28)
Diane and I celebrated our 24th anniversary this past June. We've both earned Ph.D.s. We're just a paradox given Ftk's views.

My wife and I lived in sin for 6 years. Then we got married. We've now been married 19 & 1/2 years. Another outlier, I guess.

No doubt the only thing that saved our marriage is that my wife chose to stop at her Masters and not go on to her PhD.*

I can't remember, Reagan and McCain were only ever married once, right?

*If Prop 8 in California fails, I'm sure that'll finish our marriage off once and for all.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,13:39   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,14:18)
Funny thing is that most democrats used to like McCain because he crossed the isle on several issues.  Shoot, even hard core right winger Ann Coulter didn't want him due to his Democratic views.  The guy might have actually helped with bipartisanship to a degree.  Obama on the other hand is as liberal as they come...that's not helpful in bringing the two sides together.

You miss a key point here FtK...used to like McCain.  Back before he started on this new kick.  I'm not a Democrat but I recognized that he had tried to work with everyone and respected people he diasgreed with.  Actually, I did respect him for standing up for his views, when principaled and informed.  His effort in campaign finance reform was a good start and his standing on tortue was good.  The probelm has become that he's going against so much of what he championed.

Obama is not 'as liberal as they come'.  Too liberal for you?  That I won't argue as that is your opinion, but that hardly means he's the most liberal senator.  Yes, he's being painted that way by the spin machine, but if you take the time to look and listen, you'll see that claim is bogus.

I won't say that Obama has been blameless in esclating the partisan rhetoric.  He started off good but he's begun to pander and seems to be letting his team eye the mud....I'm disappointed but not surprised.  The problem has been that, sadly, this is what our electorate wants.  They like dirty politics.  Oh, they say they don't, but when it comes down to it, it's the negative ads that people remember and make decisions based on.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,13:45   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 03 2008,13:28)
Diane and I celebrated our 24th anniversary this past June. We've both earned Ph.D.s. We're just a paradox given Ftk's views.

Do you also play the violin?



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,13:51   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 03 2008,11:45)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 03 2008,13:28)
Diane and I celebrated our 24th anniversary this past June. We've both earned Ph.D.s. We're just a paradox given Ftk's views.

Do you also play the violin?


My wife said "take me somewhere I've never been before!"  I said "How about the kitchen?"

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,13:59   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,19:33)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 03 2008,11:28)
Diane and I celebrated our 24th anniversary this past June. We've both earned Ph.D.s. We're just a paradox given Ftk's views.

My wife and I lived in sin for 6 years. Then we got married. We've now been married 19 & 1/2 years. Another outlier, I guess.

No doubt the only thing that saved our marriage is that my wife chose to stop at her Masters and not go on to her PhD.*

I can't remember, Reagan and McCain were only ever married once, right?

*If Prop 8 in California fails, I'm sure that'll finish our marriage off once and for all.

Dammit, my wife and I have PhDs. She got hers first (we alternated so we could afford to live etc). Does this mean our marriage is doomed?

Louis

P.S. Also, we lived in sin for 8 years, that's a whole 2 years more sin than Arden, but have only been married for 7 and a half years. Does this mean that if gay people get married we have to get divorced?

ETA: I know FTK's corrected herself on the state divorce rate, but I cannot help but mock.

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Bye.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,14:01   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 03 2008,13:28)
Diane and I celebrated our 24th anniversary this past June. We've both earned Ph.D.s. We're just a paradox given Ftk's views.

That's awesome, Wes.  Congrats!  Srsly.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,14:01   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,14:18)
Oh, not to worry, Steve.  Obama will take this election...the media will ensure that.

In my 32 years on the planet, a democrat has been president for 12 years and a republican has been president for 20. If the media has the power you imagine them to have, I wish they'd use it more often.

   
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,14:04   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,14:12)
Honest to God, I meant Red states, Arden.  I already knew that...that's why I said midwest Christians.  Then I went on to explain what I think may affect those results.

I'd like to throw out one more thing here.

If Arden had said that the number of Christians that get divorced is higher than other groups, then you could easily say ' well, yes, because there are more of them, duh'.  And you would be right and we could all point and laugh at Arden.

But he asked about rates.  Well that's different and your objections don't really matter.

Look at it this way:

Group A: 5 couples out of 100 get divorced
Divorce rate: 5%

Group B: 500 couples out of 10,000 divorced
Divorce rate: 5%

So if you look at pure numbers, 100 times as many Group B couples got divorced as Group A but they have the same rate.  One group being larger than the other has doesn't directly affect the rate.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,14:13   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,13:33)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 03 2008,11:28)
Diane and I celebrated our 24th anniversary this past June. We've both earned Ph.D.s. We're just a paradox given Ftk's views.

My wife and I lived in sin for 6 years. Then we got married. We've now been married 19 & 1/2 years. Another outlier, I guess.

No doubt the only thing that saved our marriage is that my wife chose to stop at her Masters and not go on to her PhD.*

I can't remember, Reagan and McCain were only ever married once, right?

*If Prop 8 in California fails, I'm sure that'll finish our marriage off once and for all.

Congrats to you too, Arden.  Hubby and I are going on 16 yrs., and we lived together for a few months before we got married....<gasp!>

We both learned a lot about what we didn't want from a relationship due to our prior serious boyfriend/girlfriend.  Both of us lived with them for a time <gasp again!> (I almost married my previous boyfriend...thank God I didn't...had the wedding invites ordered and everything).  We both knew from the start we were making the wrong choice with the first ones, but sometimes you get caught up in the wrong thing.   Within a year after our breakups, we found each other....thank God.  Looking back, I can se a *lot* of mistakes I made, but I learned from them as well.   I couldn't be happier.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,14:19   

Hey, Spottedwind, you're kind of new to our discussions and I just wanted to say that you seem like you have a good head on your shoulders.  You must not be a scientist*



*Laughing hysterically as I'm writing that one....chill folks..lol.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,14:25   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 03 2008,11:59)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,19:33)
 
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 03 2008,11:28)
Diane and I celebrated our 24th anniversary this past June. We've both earned Ph.D.s. We're just a paradox given Ftk's views.

My wife and I lived in sin for 6 years. Then we got married. We've now been married 19 & 1/2 years. Another outlier, I guess.

No doubt the only thing that saved our marriage is that my wife chose to stop at her Masters and not go on to her PhD.*

I can't remember, Reagan and McCain were only ever married once, right?

*If Prop 8 in California fails, I'm sure that'll finish our marriage off once and for all.

Dammit, my wife and I have PhDs. She got hers first (we alternated so we could afford to live etc). Does this mean our marriage is doomed?

That and gay marriage? Absolutely. You're screwed.

No doubt that's the reason for Nevada and Arkansas's high divorce rates. All those PhD's.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,14:28   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,15:01)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 03 2008,13:28)
Diane and I celebrated our 24th anniversary this past June. We've both earned Ph.D.s. We're just a paradox given Ftk's views.

That's awesome, Wes.  Congrats!  Srsly.

My wife and I have Wesley beat by one year (25 years this past July). I've got the Ph.D., she has two masters (just don't ask me who they are.)

Our secret? She's a whore in the kitchen and a cook in bed.





(Is that true? I just like that line.)

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,14:52   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 03 2008,12:51)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,12:31)
From my experience [which of course is limited cuz' I'm a friggin' creationist loon who never leaves my church], I've often found that those with very high IQs often lack a great deal of common sense and don't always make the best decisions.  They also seem to have trouble keeping their marriages and family together.  It would be interesting to see some research into this.

Indeed, it would. I suggest that you do that, and then see if the results fit your preconceptions.

Spottedwind's comments about the perception of condescension are bang-on. It doesn't take very much at all for someone who is on the losing side of an argument with an expert to bring out the complaint that the expert is being elitist, condescending, etc. This usually has nothing at all to do with the facts of the argument. But the average American almost always thinks that he/she, being blessed with an abundance of "common sense", knows more than any expert. When the opposite is pointed out to him/her, using factual arguments, the average American typically responds with non-factual accusations of elitism, condescension, and a lack of common sense on the part of the expert. When this is translated into the political arena, we get Bush, Palin, and the accompanying decline into Third World status.

One can only hope that the election outcome will be so one-sided that the Republicans will finally abandon their race to the bottom. Who can they nominate next who will be as feeble as Palin? Name #132 in the Boston phonebook? Let's hope not.

Hmmm...that's interesting.  Though, as an example, I don't think that all of those here who probably hold a higher than average IQ are elitist, condescending, etc.  But, there are certainly those of you who I'd put in that category.  I keep a running list of the elitists vs. the decent concerned individuals here at AtBC.... :p

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,14:58   

Professor Heddle,

I am a long-time, daily lurker to AtBC (3 years at least...what a waste) and have come to have a measure of respect for you, your posts and what I view as a fair amount of integrity on your part. However, I am disappointed in your support of Palin.

I readily agree that "neither high IQ (especially) or an encyclopedic command of facts has a significant positive  correlation  with the ability to lead or govern."

In response, I ask if you believe a lower IQ and a limited command of facts and knowledge have a negative correlation?

There has to be a minimum level of ability to lead and Palin does not clear the bar, rather, she's doing the Limbo. Decisions may ultimately come down to world-views, but she has a very narrow and very small one from which to draw. SCOTUS judges certainly have broader world-views, regardless if they come from Long Dong Silver movies.

How can you watch any of the interviews and think this woman has much capacity to think critically in any unanticipated scenario? Even if the droning whine of "gotcha journalism" were remotely true in the case of the Couric interviews, you'd think someone truly capable and ready to lead the US in the world could handle an insignificant reporter like Katie. No? Palin may have a decent IQ, but for me she exhibits a severe handicap in the arena of world knowledge, facts and understanding – she's incapable of contemplative thought or coherent answers.

Although she is a *hawt*, smart, job creating, maverick hockey-mom with lipstick whom I betcha I might genuinely like if I got to know her better over a six-pack or two around a kitchen table there following a rousing day of moose-goosing while out guarding our precious environmentally safe drilling rigs there in ANWR (and our fellow Americans too, don'tcha know!) from the constant Russian fly-overs...Palin is the absolute worst choice I have ever seen on a presidential ticket. Period. Spiro T would make a better choice. Even in his present condition.

I acknowledge your world-views, have read your blog here and there, agree with your insightful assessments on occasion...but it is maddening to me that someone of your intelligence accepts this farce of VP pick and the nonsensical populist gambit that it is.

More disturbing are the millions of people in the voting public who, like FTK, are not near as smart as you are and credulously fawn over her (Palin, not FTK) with no thought whatsoever.

Tony M Nyphot
(more than half serious but still a bit looney)

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"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:07   

Grrrrrrrr....!!  I oughta rip you apart for that post, but I'll allow you to live since you're basically a lurker.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:08   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 03 2008,11:04)
What terrifies me is that even otherwise intelligent people are falling into this idiotic game of identity politics. It terrifies me when it's done abroad, and it terrifies me even more when it's done here in the UK.

The shallowness of thought around the political issues of the day reminds me of the shallowness of thought around religious issues. Why people let themselves be fooled is beyond me. Admitting to compromise isn't the same thing as willing blinkered gullibility (and that's where 'Ras and I really differ ;-) ).

Louis

In your favor Louis is that science has discovered that evolution tends to construct things more robustly, more durably than intelligent design.  I think of the British government as having evolved over a thousand years and the American government as having been intelligently designed over two months of a single summer.  Certainly I am oversimplifying in both statements above, but I take hope that perhaps your government won't be co-opted so easily as the American form has been.

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:09   

Obama is up 5 for the day on Intrade.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:16   

Jumping Jeezus on a pogostick:

 
Quote
Rich Lowry:
I'm sure I'm not the only male in America who, when Palin dropped her first wink, sat up a little straighter on the couch and said, "Hey, I think she just winked at me." And her smile. By the end, when she clearly knew she was doing well, it was so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing. It sent little starbursts through the screen and ricocheting around the living rooms of America. This is a quality that can't be learned; it's either something you have or you don't, and man, she's got it.


I'm sure you weren't the only one, but I should hope the others would have the sense not to admit it.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:19   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,12:52)
I keep a running list of the elitists vs. the decent concerned individuals here at AtBC.... :p

Thanks a piggin' bunch, FTK.  I'm not going to get that song from The Mikado out of my head for the rest of the day now.


P.S.  Does this make me elitist or not?

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:22   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,15:16)
Jumping Jeezus on a pogostick:
 
Quote
Rich Lowry:
I'm sure I'm not the only male in America who, when Palin dropped her first wink, sat up a little straighter on the couch and said, "Hey, I think she just winked at me." And her smile. By the end, when she clearly knew she was doing well, it was so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing. It sent little starbursts through the screen and ricocheting around the living rooms of America. This is a quality that can't be learned; it's either something you have or you don't, and man, she's got it.

I'm sure you weren't the only one, but I should hope the others would have the sense not to admit it.

Hand lotion and kleenex futures are up 10 over at Intrade.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:22   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,12:52)
I keep a running list of the elitists vs. the decent concerned individuals here at AtBC....

It's impossible to be a decent, concerned elitist?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:30   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,14:52)
I keep a running list of the elitists vs. the decent concerned individuals here at AtBC.... :p

I've no doubt that you keep such a list of indecent unconcerned individuals here, and that you find it very useful when you are trying to figure out which comments to ignore. Saves you the trouble of reading them, for sure.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:30   

Tony M Nyphot,

Yes, quite a few people are disappointed that I support Palin. I don’t understand that. People don’t disappoint me if they support a different candidate. I switched from Obama because he flip flopped on FISA and public finance. (He also flip flopped on Born Alive—but in that case his flop was preferred to his flip). And the final straw for me was the Biden selection. But for those for whom those things are not important, I don’t ponder why they don’t “get it.”

You would be wrong to assume anything even remotely close to “smart people support Obama.” (Or any other candidate.) There are plenty of smart people supporting each candidate. The closest you can come to making such a statement is that the smart people on sites like this support Obama—but these sites, and counterparts on the right, are merely unrepresentative blips. If you think that way, you are in danger of waking up the day after the election like the proverbial Hamptons socialite who said: “I don’t understand how Nixon won, everyone I know voted for McGovern.” (OK, that won’t happen this election which is, for all intents and purposes, over--but the point stands.)

As for Palin, I do not think that exhaustive knowledge of all the nuances of the issues is important for a president or VP. Cheney knows a bundle but he’s a crappy VP. Ditto Gore, Carter, Johnson, Nixon. I always want a president (or in this case a VP) that I find to be a good and decent  and capable person—certainly they must rise above some intellectual threshold, one that I think Palin more than achieves—but primarily I want a person I can admire. At one time I felt that way about Obama. Now, of the four on the national ticket, I only feel that way about Palin. And I’ll take that over command of the issues, interviewing or debating skill, passing an ideological litmus test, or pedigree any day of the week.

If the Identity-Politics Watchdogs (who, in my opinion, cast their lidless-eye gaze in but one direction) don't like that--screw 'em. Democracy can be a bitch.

Edit: Biden Moment Typo.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:30   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,15:22)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,12:52)
I keep a running list of the elitists vs. the decent concerned individuals here at AtBC....

It's impossible to be a decent, concerned elitist?

Hmmmm....perhaps, but as a general rule, NO.  They're too self absorbed about their immense IQ, endless education, job status, etc. to care about anything other than making sure everyone acknowledges them as always being the expert on virtually every topic.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:34   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,15:30)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,15:22)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,12:52)
I keep a running list of the elitists vs. the decent concerned individuals here at AtBC....

It's impossible to be a decent, concerned elitist?

Hmmmm....perhaps, but as a general rule, NO.  They're too self absorbed about their immense IQ, endless education, job status, etc. to care about anything other than making sure everyone acknowledges them as always being the expert on virtually every topic.

Maybe Stevestory will exert his moderator powers here, but let me state that discussion of Davescot needs to take place over on the Uncommon Descent thread.  Thanks.



Edited by Lou FCD on Oct. 03 2008,18:45

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:38   

Quote
As for Palin, I do not think that exhaustive knowledge of all the nuances of the issues is important for a president or VP. Cheney knows a bundle but he’s a crappy VP. Ditto Gore, Carter, Johnson, Nixon. I always want a president (or in this case a VP) that I find to be a good and decent  and capable person—certainly they must rise above some intellectual threshold, one that I think Palin more than achieves—but primarily I want a person I can admire. At one time I felt that way about Obama. Now, of the four on the national ticket, I only feel that way about Palin. And I’ll take that over command of the issues, interviewing or debating skill, passing an ideological litmus test, or pedigree any day of the week.


Amen to that.  You *don't* have to be a genius to run the nation.  A hard working, above average person who is a quick study and eager/enthusiastic to do what's right for the nation is the best candidate we can ask for.  Like I said earlier...Palin is a fresh face who doesn't carry all the negative baggage, and she won't cave to the Washington BS.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:45   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,15:16)
Jumping Jeezus on a pogostick:

 
Quote
Rich Lowry:
I'm sure I'm not the only male in America who, when Palin dropped her first wink, sat up a little straighter on the couch and said, "Hey, I think she just winked at me." And her smile. By the end, when she clearly knew she was doing well, it was so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing. It sent little starbursts through the screen and ricocheting around the living rooms of America. This is a quality that can't be learned; it's either something you have or you don't, and man, she's got it.


I'm sure you weren't the only one, but I should hope the others would have the sense not to admit it.

If Obama had picked a Sarah Palin, you guys would be salivating all over yourselves while singing her praises.

Although there is that elitist group of individuals here who would still poo poo her for being too "folksy".   :angry:

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:50   

The Palin - Fargo meme picks up steam
Quote
But who did she resemble more? Marge Gunderson, whose peppy pleasantries masked a remorseless policewoman's logic? Or Jerry Lundegaard, who knew he didn't have the car on his lot, but smiled when he said, "M'am, I been cooperatin' with ya here."


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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:55   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,15:45)
If Obama had picked a Sarah Palin, you guys would be salivating all over yourselves while singing her praises.

Not hardly. There are any number of Republican women who if chosen, I would not have questioned their legitimacy to be there.  Elizabeth Dole, Kay Bailey-Hutchinson, Christine Todd-Whitman, and Olympia Snowe all come to mind.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,15:56   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,14:07)
Grrrrrrrr....!!  I oughta rip you apart for that post, but I'll allow you to live since you're basically a lurker.

Please...don't let my status as a lurker stop you. I should be easy prey compared to the other elitist intellectuals here. I have no fear of empty insults.

While I'm not the best at communicating my thoughts, it should be clear I was expressing an opinion about Palin. Take it or leave again..I don't care.

However, I am willing to stand by my statements that:
1. You are not as smart as Heddle, in anyway, by any stretch.
2. You credulously fawn over Palin with no thought whatsoever – as exhibited by your earlier vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous, "breath-of-fresh-air" posts.

As astutely pointed out by csadams (http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=14;t=5785;st=450#entry124508), you and Sarah are very much alike.

If, as you say, she is a good representative of who you are...Do you think you would make a competent VP?

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"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:01   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 03 2008,13:34)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,15:30)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,15:22)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,12:52)
I keep a running list of the elitists vs. the decent concerned individuals here at AtBC....

It's impossible to be a decent, concerned elitist?

Hmmmm....perhaps, but as a general rule, NO.  They're too self absorbed about their immense IQ, endless education, job status, etc. to care about anything other than making sure everyone acknowledges them as always being the expert on virtually every topic.

Maybe Stevestory will exert his moderator powers here, but let me state that discussion of Davescot needs to take place over on the Uncommon Descent thread.  Thanks.

Steve? Over here? POTW?

It's been like, two days, so we're overdue, right?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:04   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,13:38)
Quote
As for Palin, I do not think that exhaustive knowledge of all the nuances of the issues is important for a president or VP. Cheney knows a bundle but he’s a crappy VP. Ditto Gore, Carter, Johnson, Nixon. I always want a president (or in this case a VP) that I find to be a good and decent  and capable person—certainly they must rise above some intellectual threshold, one that I think Palin more than achieves—but primarily I want a person I can admire. At one time I felt that way about Obama. Now, of the four on the national ticket, I only feel that way about Palin. And I’ll take that over command of the issues, interviewing or debating skill, passing an ideological litmus test, or pedigree any day of the week.


Amen to that.  You *don't* have to be a genius to run the nation.  A hard working, above average person who is a quick study and eager/enthusiastic to do what's right for the nation is the best candidate we can ask for.  Like I said earlier...Palin is a fresh face who doesn't carry all the negative baggage, and she won't cave to the Washington BS.

Coming from a person who is unshakably convinced you don't have to know anything about science in order to pass judgement on what is valid science, none of us should be surprised.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:05   

Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 03 2008,21:56)
If, as you say, she is a good representative of who you are...Do you think you would make a competent VP?



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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:12   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,16:30)
As for Palin, I do not think that exhaustive knowledge of all the nuances of the issues is important for a president or VP. Cheney knows a bundle but he’s a crappy VP. Ditto Gore, Carter, Johnson, Nixon. I always want a president (or in this case a VP) that I find to be a good and decent  and capable person—certainly they must rise above some intellectual threshold, one that I think Palin more than achieves—but primarily I want a person I can admire. At one time I felt that way about Obama. Now, of the four on the national ticket, I only feel that way about Palin. And I’ll take that over command of the issues, interviewing or debating skill, passing an ideological litmus test, or pedigree any day of the week.

Surpassing strange. Significant measures of both ability and expertise - professional levels of same - are required to operate a commercial aircraft, perform surgery, pitch effective baseball, teach 11th grade, practice law, build homes, conduct classical ensembles, complete scientific research... and on and on. All of which require years of tutelage and experience to acquire. There are sometimes obvious differences in ability and expertise, differences that can be detected and that (imperfectly to be sure) predict future success.

Apparently, inhabiting the presidency is a simpler task than any of the above.

What you are stating suggests a very strange characterization of the demands of the presidency - ability and expertise in the relevant domains mean little, and character and your sense of admiration (the arousal of which is apparently independent of your assessment of ability and expertise) everything.

That can't be right.

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:12   

Quote
Amen to that.  You *don't* have to be a genius to run the nation.  A hard working, above average person who is a quick study and eager/enthusiastic to do what's right for the nation is the best candidate we can ask for.


I have to get an appendectomy next week. The guy who's going to do it has never operated on anyone before, and he's never studied medicine, but I'm not worried. He's a quick study and very enthusiastic. In fact, he's not really very bright, but I can admire him, and he's not an elitist, so I'm very optimistic. That's the best I can ask for.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:15   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 03 2008,14:12)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,16:30)
As for Palin, I do not think that exhaustive knowledge of all the nuances of the issues is important for a president or VP. Cheney knows a bundle but he’s a crappy VP. Ditto Gore, Carter, Johnson, Nixon. I always want a president (or in this case a VP) that I find to be a good and decent  and capable person—certainly they must rise above some intellectual threshold, one that I think Palin more than achieves—but primarily I want a person I can admire. At one time I felt that way about Obama. Now, of the four on the national ticket, I only feel that way about Palin. And I’ll take that over command of the issues, interviewing or debating skill, passing an ideological litmus test, or pedigree any day of the week.

Surpassing strange. Significant measures of both ability and expertise - professional levels of same - are required to operate a commercial aircraft, perform surgery, pitch effective baseball, teach 11th grade, practice law, build homes, conduct classical ensembles, complete scientific research... and on and on. All of which require years of tutelage and experience to acquire. There are sometimes obvious differences in ability and expertise, differences that can be detected and that (imperfectly to be sure) predict future success.

Apparently, inhabiting the presidency is a simpler task than any of the above.

What you are stating suggests a very strange characterization of the demands of the presidency - ability and expertise in the relevant domains mean little, and character and your sense of admiration (the arousal of which is apparently independent of your assessment of ability and expertise) everything.

That can't be right.

I find it remarkable that Heddle's 'admiration' of Palin is, for some reason, greater than his admiration of Obama, AND that this 'admiration' trumps Obama's superior command of the issues.

I think this is Heddle's more pretentious version of the traditional "I vote for whoever I'd most want to have a beer with" test.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:16   

Quote
However, I am willing to stand by my statements that:

1. You are not as smart as Heddle, in anyway, by any stretch.


Hmmmm...probably depends on your definition of smart:

   
Quote
a. Characterized by sharp quick thought; bright. See Synonyms at intelligent.
b. Amusingly clever; witty: a smart quip; a lively, smart conversation.
c. Impertinent; insolent: That's enough of your smart talk.
2. Energetic or quick in movement: a smart pace.
3. Canny and shrewd in dealings with others: a smart negotiator.
4. Fashionable; elegant: a smart suit; a smart restaurant; the smart set. See Synonyms at fashionable.


Obviously, I don't have the education that he does...he's a freaking physicist for cripes sakes.  So you have me there.  I, OTOH, am an underachiever...lol.

   
Quote
2. You credulously fawn over Palin with no thought whatsoever – as exhibited by your earlier vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous, "breath-of-fresh-air" posts.


Whatev...

 
Quote
As astutely pointed out by csadams (http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=14;t=5785;st=450#entry124508), you and Sarah are very much alike.


Why thank you...thank you very much.  Of course, I'm deemed the piranha rather than the barracuda.

Quote
If, as you say, she is a good representative of who you are...Do you think you would make a competent VP?


LOL...hell no, I either pee my pants or faint dead away if I had to stand at the podium with Joe Biden in a *live* debate.  I'm a horrible speaker, so that would definitely knock me out of the running.  Although, as far as everything about the vice presidency goes, I'd be a shoe in.*

*God forbid anyone takes this post seriously, but it never fails that some of you step right into the shit I pull.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:21   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 03 2008,16:12)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,16:30)
As for Palin, I do not think that exhaustive knowledge of all the nuances of the issues is important for a president or VP. Cheney knows a bundle but he’s a crappy VP. Ditto Gore, Carter, Johnson, Nixon. I always want a president (or in this case a VP) that I find to be a good and decent  and capable person—certainly they must rise above some intellectual threshold, one that I think Palin more than achieves—but primarily I want a person I can admire. At one time I felt that way about Obama. Now, of the four on the national ticket, I only feel that way about Palin. And I’ll take that over command of the issues, interviewing or debating skill, passing an ideological litmus test, or pedigree any day of the week.

Surpassing strange. Significant measures of both ability and expertise - professional levels of same - are required to operate a commercial aircraft, perform surgery, pitch effective baseball, teach 11th grade, practice law, build homes, conduct classical ensembles, complete scientific research... and on and on. All of which require years of tutelage and experience to acquire. There are sometimes obvious differences in ability and expertise, differences that can be detected and that (imperfectly to be sure) predict future success.

Apparently, inhabiting the presidency is a simpler task than any of the above.

What you are stating suggests a very strange characterization of the demands of the presidency - ability and expertise in the relevant domains mean little, and character and your sense of admiration (the arousal of which is apparently independent of your assessment of ability and expertise) everything.

That can't be right.

Elitist!

Obama has a degree from Harvard don't ya know...he's, like, so much "smarter" than Sarah...bleh.

He also has less experience than she does for the positions we're discussing.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:22   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,16:12)
Quote
Amen to that.  You *don't* have to be a genius to run the nation.  A hard working, above average person who is a quick study and eager/enthusiastic to do what's right for the nation is the best candidate we can ask for.


I have to get an appendectomy next week. The guy who's going to do it has never operated on anyone before, and he's never studied medicine, but I'm not worried. He's a quick study and very enthusiastic. In fact, he's not really very bright, but I can admire him, and he's not an elitist, so I'm very optimistic. That's the best I can ask for.

In a limited sense, I have to agree with Heddle.  The scope of the President's job is too wide for the person occupying the position to pretend to competency in every topic.  One of the marks of a truly great President (indeed, any leader) is his choice of advisors and management team.

That, though, is the limit of my common ground with Dave.  I find Palin woefully unprepared for high national office (a condition that might be fixed with more experience and exposure) and her choice reflects badly on McCain.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:24   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,14:21)
Obama has a degree from Harvard don't ya know...he's, like, so much "smarter" than Sarah...bleh.

He also has less experience than she does for the positions we're discussing.

But so does McCain, right?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:25   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 03 2008,14:22)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,16:12)
Quote
Amen to that.  You *don't* have to be a genius to run the nation.  A hard working, above average person who is a quick study and eager/enthusiastic to do what's right for the nation is the best candidate we can ask for.


I have to get an appendectomy next week. The guy who's going to do it has never operated on anyone before, and he's never studied medicine, but I'm not worried. He's a quick study and very enthusiastic. In fact, he's not really very bright, but I can admire him, and he's not an elitist, so I'm very optimistic. That's the best I can ask for.

In a limited sense, I have to agree with Heddle.  The scope of the President's job is too wide for the person occupying the position to pretend to competency in every topic.  One of the marks of a truly great President (indeed, any leader) is his choice of advisors and management team.

That, though, is the limit of my common ground with Dave.  I find Palin woefully unprepared for high national office (a condition that might be fixed with more experience and exposure) and her choice reflects badly on McCain.

I'd be curious to know why Heddle apparently admires Palin so much more than Obama.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:27   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,16:25)
I'd be curious to know why Heddle apparently admires Palin so much more than Obama.

Like likes like.

She is the first true evangelical candidate for such an office.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:30   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 03 2008,14:28)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 03 2008,13:28)
Diane and I celebrated our 24th anniversary this past June. We've both earned Ph.D.s. We're just a paradox given Ftk's views.

Speaking of anniversaries . . .
Quote
Obama combines love and politics

GLENSIDE, Pa. (AP) — Barack Obama combined love and politics Friday, buying his wife a dozen white roses for their 16th wedding anniversary at a flower shop conveniently located in a swing district in suburban Philadelphia.

Dozens of reporters and photographers crammed into Penny's Flowers to see the Democratic presidential nominee pick out the roses for his wife, Michelle, for $47.70. Afterward, he headed for a flight home to Chicago so he could take her out to dinner.

Obama has slipped a couple times in recent days, incorrectly saying it's their 15th anniversary. That's understandable since they've spent most of the last year apart with separate campaign schedules.


Remind me again . . . what's McCain's matrimonial track record, and how does it fit with the Family Values folks?

On the other hand, a husband who can't correctly remember which anniversary it is . . .  ;)

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:32   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,22:21)
Elitist!


Is this a respectable source?

Quote

Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor.


Censorship is pretty elitist, don't you think? Granted, she wasn't able to pull it off, so I guess that doesn't count...

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:35   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 03 2008,16:32)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,22:21)
Elitist!


Is this a respectable source?

Quote

Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor.


Censorship is pretty elitist, don't you think? Granted, she wasn't able to pull it off, so I guess that doesn't count...

Minor quibble, but Palin did fire the librarian, but backtracked after there was a big outcry in Wasilla over it.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:37   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 03 2008,14:32)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,22:21)
Elitist!


Is this a respectable source?

 
Quote

Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor.


Censorship is pretty elitist, don't you think?

No, no, NO. I can see you don't understand this whole elitism thing at all.

Reading a lot MAKES you elitist, so in fact Palin was attempting to prevent elitism in future generations. For this I can admire her.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:38   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,14:30)
Tony M Nyphot,

Yes, quite a few people are disappointed that I support Palin. I don’t understand that. People don’t disappoint me if they support a different candidate. I switched from Obama because he flip flopped on FISA and public finance. (He also flip flopped on Born Alive—but in that case his flop was preferred to his flip). And the final straw for me was the Biden selection. But for those for whom those things are not important, I don’t ponder why they don’t “get it.”

You would be wrong to assume anything even remotely close to “smart people support Obama.” (Or any other candidate.) There are plenty of smart people supporting each candidate. The closest you can come to making such a statement is that the smart people on sites like this support Obama—but these sites, and counterparts on the right, are merely unrepresentative blips. If you think that way, you are in danger of waking up the day after the election like the proverbial Hamptons socialite who said: “I don’t understand how Nixon won, everyone I know voted for McGovern.” (OK, that won’t happen this election which is, for all intents and purposes, over--but the point stands.)

As for Palin, I do not think that exhaustive knowledge of all the nuances of the issues is important for a president or VP. Cheney knows a bundle but he’s a crappy VP. Ditto Gore, Carter, Johnson, Nixon. I always want a president (or in this case a VP) that I find to be a good and decent  and capable person—certainly they must rise above some intellectual threshold, one that I think Palin more than achieves—but primarily I want a person I can admire. At one time I felt that way about Obama. Now, of the four on the national ticket, I only feel that way about Palin. And I’ll take that over command of the issues, interviewing or debating skill, passing an ideological litmus test, or pedigree any day of the week.

If the Identity-Politics Watchdogs (who, in my opinion, cast their lidless-eye gaze in but one direction) don't like that--screw 'em. Democracy can be a bitch.

Edit: Biden Moment Typo.

Professor Heddle,

Thanks for the worthy reply. By no means do I think "smart people" only support Obama. I personally know many who do not. I also agree that Biden was a disappointing choice in many ways, just not perhaps in the same ways. He IS a smart, capable individual. I also think he is good and decent.

However, I believe it will take a presidential nominee reaching across the aisle on a VP pick to help remove some of the polarization that continues to fester in the political system. Biden is not that type of pick. (For some reason I had in mind someone like Lincoln Chafee.) Sarah Palin does not represent a reach across the aisle either. She is more of a reach back to the base and so is also a major disappointment in that respect. So much for the maverick label.

While I agree with much of of what you say in your response, the big disagreement comes in following your own criteria of "good and decent and capable." I can't say I really know enough to tell whether Palin is good and decent. I have seen enough, including attending one of her rallies, to say she is NOT capable.

The skills you subjugate to admiration in making your choice are necessary for dealing with national and world issues and should take precedence in my opinion. I want someone that has the ability to get the job done, not someone I admire for trying to do something they can't. Regardless, for me at least, she has not demonstrated she rises above an "intellectual threshold" and has done nothing more to gain my admiration that many others have not also done.

As far as flip-flops, Palin and especially McCain, are just as guilty. And I agree with you that Obama's change on FISA is disturbing. I guess it depends which ones mean the most to you as an individual.

Anyway, I respect your choice. I am disappointed in it and  I don't "get it" at all. Sorry...

Tony M Nyphot

Gratuitous BTW - You are much, much smarter than FTK.

Edit: just to pretend I can mess with FTK

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"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:38   

Sarah's experience vs. Obama's

Like the source?? lol

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:38   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 03 2008,14:27)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,16:25)
I'd be curious to know why Heddle apparently admires Palin so much more than Obama.

Like likes like.

She is the first true evangelical candidate for such an office.

Well, if that's true, that basically sounds like a religious litmus test.

Quote
And I’ll take that over command of the issues, interviewing or debating skill, passing an ideological litmus test, or pedigree any day of the week.


Better than an 'ideological' one, I suppose.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:40   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,14:38)
Sarah's experience vs. Obama's

Like the source?? lol

Quote
Is Barack Obama a genuine Christian or a Wolf in Sheep Clothing?


Even *you* can probably do better than that.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:58   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,16:38)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 03 2008,14:27)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,16:25)
I'd be curious to know why Heddle apparently admires Palin so much more than Obama.

Like likes like.

She is the first true evangelical candidate for such an office.

Well, if that's true, that basically sounds like a religious litmus test.

So what?  Individuals are allowed to apply whatever litmus test they wish.
 
Quote
 
Quote
And I’ll take that over command of the issues, interviewing or debating skill, passing an ideological litmus test, or pedigree any day of the week.


Better than an 'ideological' one, I suppose.

Watch your attributions. That wasn't me saying that.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,16:58   

Quote (Paul Flocken @ Oct. 03 2008,21:08)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 03 2008,11:04)
What terrifies me is that even otherwise intelligent people are falling into this idiotic game of identity politics. It terrifies me when it's done abroad, and it terrifies me even more when it's done here in the UK.

The shallowness of thought around the political issues of the day reminds me of the shallowness of thought around religious issues. Why people let themselves be fooled is beyond me. Admitting to compromise isn't the same thing as willing blinkered gullibility (and that's where 'Ras and I really differ ;-) ).

Louis

In your favor Louis is that science has discovered that evolution tends to construct things more robustly, more durably than intelligent design.  I think of the British government as having evolved over a thousand years and the American government as having been intelligently designed over two months of a single summer.  Certainly I am oversimplifying in both statements above, but I take hope that perhaps your government won't be co-opted so easily as the American form has been.

I wish that were true.

Sadly I think the difference seems to be that we do basically the same things you do, only in some cases a couple of centuries ago when less people were watching, and usually with more tea and spanking.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:04   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,15:30)
As for Palin, I do not think that exhaustive knowledge of all the nuances of the issues is important for a president or VP. Cheney knows a bundle but he’s a crappy VP. Ditto Gore, Carter, Johnson, Nixon. I always want a president (or in this case a VP) that I find to be a good and decent  and capable person—certainly they must rise above some intellectual threshold, one that I think Palin more than achieves—but primarily I want a person I can admire.

Dave

Would your high opinion of Palin be changed at all if the ongoing investigation finds that she abused her office in the attempts to get her former brother-in-law fired? Or is that also to be admired, because she was looking out for her sister?

I just don't get why having someone whom you can "admire" is the ultimate point-getter in your scorebook, trumping experience, legislative acumen, achievements, and reasoning ability. Going back to your original comment, do you not "admire" some of the folks you work with?  You know, the same ones who you are convinced would be a worse president than #132 in the Boston phone book?  Or is it possible that "admire" is a rationalization  for "makes me feel good about my religious views"?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:06   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 03 2008,14:58)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,16:38)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 03 2008,14:27)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,16:25)
I'd be curious to know why Heddle apparently admires Palin so much more than Obama.

Like likes like.

She is the first true evangelical candidate for such an office.

Well, if that's true, that basically sounds like a religious litmus test.

So what?  Individuals are allowed to apply whatever litmus test they wish.
 
Quote
 
Quote
And I’ll take that over command of the issues, interviewing or debating skill, passing an ideological litmus test, or pedigree any day of the week.


Better than an 'ideological' one, I suppose.

Watch your attributions. That wasn't me saying that.

I didn't say it was. Sorry if I was ambiguous.

The point is, I fail to see how an ideological litmus test is something to be avoided, but not a religious litmus test.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:11   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,22:37)
No, no, NO. I can see you don't understand this whole elitism thing at all.

Reading a lot MAKES you elitist, so in fact Palin was attempting to prevent elitism in future generations. For this I can admire her.

I stand corrected.

Just goes to show that if we work hard enough we might just have a cure for literacy within our lifetime.

ETA: GO TEAM!

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:11   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 03 2008,14:58)
Quote (Paul Flocken @ Oct. 03 2008,21:08)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 03 2008,11:04)
What terrifies me is that even otherwise intelligent people are falling into this idiotic game of identity politics. It terrifies me when it's done abroad, and it terrifies me even more when it's done here in the UK.

The shallowness of thought around the political issues of the day reminds me of the shallowness of thought around religious issues. Why people let themselves be fooled is beyond me. Admitting to compromise isn't the same thing as willing blinkered gullibility (and that's where 'Ras and I really differ ;-) ).

Louis

In your favor Louis is that science has discovered that evolution tends to construct things more robustly, more durably than intelligent design.  I think of the British government as having evolved over a thousand years and the American government as having been intelligently designed over two months of a single summer.  Certainly I am oversimplifying in both statements above, but I take hope that perhaps your government won't be co-opted so easily as the American form has been.

I wish that were true.

Sadly I think the difference seems to be that we do basically the same things you do, only in some cases a couple of centuries ago when less people were watching, and usually with more tea and spanking.

Louis

Just like biological evolution, constututional evolution in the UK has left us with a pile of jury-rigged fixes, vestigial organs and cack-handed approaches to things which no rational designer would go anywhere near.  (Exhibit A).  It sort of works most of the time.  No-one knows how.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:11   

[Cue my first trip to the BTW]

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,15:16)


a. Characterized by sharp quick thought; bright. See Synonyms at intelligent. EPIC FAIL
b. Amusingly clever; witty EPIC FAIL
c. Impertinent; insolent: That's enough of your smart talk. Now you're talking!
2. Energetic or quick in movement: a smart pace. FAIL (see blog diet diary)
3. Canny and shrewd in dealings with others FAIL (except in your own mind)
4. Fashionable; elegant: See Synonyms at fashionable. FAIL (peeing in your pants and fainting is an immediate disqualification for this category of smart - except maybe in Kansas. I'll consult with Jack.)



[Richard Dawkins "Beware The Believers" voice]

Heddle is much, much smarter than you. He has a science degree.

[/Richard Dawkins "Beware The Believers" voice]

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:11   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,17:21)
Obama has a degree from Harvard don't ya know...he's, like, so much "smarter" than Sarah...bleh.

He also has less experience than she does for the positions we're discussing.

Again, very strange. Whatever your thoughts on Obama's political philosophy, it is absolutely obvious that he has an extremely high verbal IQ and corresponding grasp of nuanced and difficult concepts. A very vigorous and articulate intellect capable of wrestling complex and subtle ideas to the mat in real-time is plainly evident. This was particularly evident during his one on one debates with Hilary - although she was every bit his match in this respect. Both displayed a deep grasp of the positions they advocated and discussed them with a sense of mastery and expertise. These things, in my opinion, are a sine qua non for filling a professional or political role as demanding as the presidency.

Palin has a sunny, spunky presentation, and she clearly has some ability. But she doesn't have the intellect Obama displays. Not even close.

Strangely absent from this discussion vis IQ and presidency - as we sling examples and counter-examples - has been the incumbent. His lack of intellectual qualification for the job was evident to me from the first moment I heard his stumbling parody of the English language. His presidency has been a disaster, characterized by epic blunders with disastrous consequences. Far worse than my initial pessimistic expectations.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:15   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,21:45)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,15:16)
Jumping Jeezus on a pogostick:

   
Quote
Rich Lowry:
I'm sure I'm not the only male in America who, when Palin dropped her first wink, sat up a little straighter on the couch and said, "Hey, I think she just winked at me." And her smile. By the end, when she clearly knew she was doing well, it was so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing. It sent little starbursts through the screen and ricocheting around the living rooms of America. This is a quality that can't be learned; it's either something you have or you don't, and man, she's got it.


I'm sure you weren't the only one, but I should hope the others would have the sense not to admit it.

If Obama had picked a Sarah Palin, you guys would be salivating all over yourselves while singing her praises.

Although there is that elitist group of individuals here who would still poo poo her for being too "folksy".   :angry:

No one's poopooing Palin for BEING folksy (more power to her on that front in fact), people are poopooing the transparent use of her apparent folksiness as an electioneering tool. A tool that explicitly distracts from the issues of substance and causes people to focus on issues of form.

Such behaviour is a tool of exploitation of the electorate NO MATTER WHO DOES IT. Do you want a list of example that the "liberal leftist wing dings" (or whatever convenient caricature you have in mind) use?

As usual FTK it's not a matter of which team Palin belongs to (at least for me, I don't have a dog in the hunt after all) it's a matter of the transparent tactics of exploitation.

Take for example the Labour party here in the UK (traditionally left wing, although recent years have seen them arguably drift to the centre right), a party that has engaged in EXACTLY this kind of tactic. The Conservative party here in the UK (traditionally right wing, although recent years have seen them arguably drift to the centre right also) does exactly the same thing also. It's part of the raft of tactics that effectively disenfranchise the electorate without having to do so 100% overtly.

I know you don't get this, despite it being repeated a lot, but it really, really, REALLY, REEEEEAAAAAAALLLLLLLYYYYYY is not about identity politics. I'm sure Sarah Palin is a lovely person, I'm chuffed to bits you have found a candidate that you resonate with so well. I simply don't care about any of it, nor do I care how nice a chap Obama or Biden is or isn't. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. What DOES matter is what stances these people espouse on the various issues of the day, why, how they've voted/acted etc.

I'm frustrated because there are very intellectual elitist people behind the scenes, writing speeches and preparing PR who are deliberately manipulating the "folksiness" of Palin (and the "blackness" of Obama no doubt, and the "war heroness" of McCain etc etc etc) deliberately so people like you and me will ignore the issues and be swayed by various prejudicial appeals. It works on everyone, we're all susceptible to it. The trick is to remember that you're susceptible and try not to be.

The chip on your shoulder about "elitists" here is ridiculous. I think if you read what people actually wrote once in a while, instead of projecting your own issues onto others, you'd find very few (if any) such people anywhere.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:19   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 03 2008,17:04)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,15:30)
As for Palin, I do not think that exhaustive knowledge of all the nuances of the issues is important for a president or VP. Cheney knows a bundle but he’s a crappy VP. Ditto Gore, Carter, Johnson, Nixon. I always want a president (or in this case a VP) that I find to be a good and decent  and capable person—certainly they must rise above some intellectual threshold, one that I think Palin more than achieves—but primarily I want a person I can admire.

Dave

Would your high opinion of Palin be changed at all if the ongoing investigation finds that she abused her office in the attempts to get her former brother-in-law fired? Or is that also to be admired, because she was looking out for her sister?

I just don't get why having someone whom you can "admire" is the ultimate point-getter in your scorebook, trumping experience, legislative acumen, achievements, and reasoning ability. Going back to your original comment, do you not "admire" some of the folks you work with?  You know, the same ones who you are convinced would be a worse president than #132 in the Boston phone book?  Or is it possible that "admire" is a rationalization  for "makes me feel good about my religious views"?

Yes, unless there were mitigating circumstances. If her ex brother-in-law did indeed taser her nephew and did indeed make death threats against her father, then I'd give her a pass on that one. In that case, I'd do the same.

I tried to make it clear with many examples--Nixon, Johnson, Carter, Gore, Cheney--I see no reason why "experience, legislative acumen and achievements" are such a big deal. If I did, then I never would have supported Obama in the first place.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:25   

Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 03 2008,17:11)
[Cue my first trip to the BTW]

 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,15:16)


a. Characterized by sharp quick thought; bright. See Synonyms at intelligent. EPIC FAIL
b. Amusingly clever; witty EPIC FAIL
c. Impertinent; insolent: That's enough of your smart talk. Now you're talking!
2. Energetic or quick in movement: a smart pace. FAIL (see blog diet diary)
3. Canny and shrewd in dealings with others FAIL (except in your own mind)
4. Fashionable; elegant: See Synonyms at fashionable. FAIL (peeing in your pants and fainting is an immediate disqualification for this category of smart - except maybe in Kansas. I'll consult with Jack.)



[Richard Dawkins "Beware The Believers" voice]

Heddle is much, much smarter than you. He has a science degree.

[/Richard Dawkins "Beware The Believers" voice]

lol....okay, since I'm a good sport, I'll have to admit that was pretty funny.  

PS: I don't think Jack's ever seen me speak to a group other than maybe the one time I spoke at an open forum at a KBOE meeting.  I'm not sure he was there when I spoke.  Wouldn't have mattered anyway because I mostly read what I wanted to say and took a pill before I had to speak (I'm not kidding).  For some bizarre reason, I'm absolutely ***petrified*** of public speaking.  Scares the bejesus out of me.  I almost completely blacked out giving a speech in college once.  The intense fear keeps me from being involved in a *lot* of things I'd like to do (which involve public speaking).  

I'd guess the dudes at the DI are counting their blessing....!  lol

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:26   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,17:19)
I tried to make it clear with many examples--Nixon, Johnson, Carter, Gore, Cheney--I see no reason why "experience, legislative acumen and achievements" are such a big deal. If I did, then I never would have supported Obama in the first place.

The problem with your argument Dave is that those individuals weren't bad because of those skills, they were bad in spite of them.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:36   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,17:19)
Yes, unless there were mitigating circumstances. If her ex brother-in-law did indeed taser her nephew and did indeed make death threats against her father, then I'd give her a pass on that one. In that case, I'd do the same.

Don't you think that trying to shift the focus from her actions to his actions is just a tad obvious?

More to the point, don't you imagine that if the accusations against her brother-in-law are accurate, he would have been dismissed WITHOUT her abusing her office? Elected officials are public servants, and firing someone just because you disagree with their course of action is an abuse of that trust. It is not admirable in the least. In fact, I think that elected officials should take extra pains to distance themselves from personnel decisions when they are personally or emotionally involved with the situation. Obviously you disagree; you'd do the same thing yourself...
 
Quote
I tried to make it clear with many examples--Nixon, Johnson, Carter, Gore, Cheney--I see no reason why "experience, legislative acumen and achievements" are such a big deal. If I did, then I never would have supported Obama in the first place.

Those are examples of folks who you think screwed up in leadership roles despite having that experience. You are ignoring the real point here, that experience and intelligence and the ability to surround yourself with capable smart people are necessary but not sufficient. Yes, people who should have been better leaders, based on those parameters, can still screw up. Nobody is supporting that strawman. Here's the real issue. What about situations where somebody comes into office without much experience,  moderate-to-low intelligence, or no real history of association with smart capable people? One recent example of such a case would be, as others have pointed out, the current occupant. How did that work out?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:42   

Quote
Whatever your thoughts on Obama's political philosophy, it is absolutely obvious that he has an extremely high verbal IQ and corresponding grasp of nuanced and difficult concepts. A very vigorous and articulate intellect capable of wrestling complex and subtle ideas to the mat in real-time is plainly evident.


High verbal IQ perhaps, but I'd put him up against Sarah in ability to grasp difficult concepts.  You just like the guy because you relate to his "high verbal IQ".  Everyone relates to people who hold similiar qualities to their own.

 
Quote
Palin has a sunny, spunky presentation, and she clearly has some ability. But she doesn't have the intellect Obama displays. Not even close.


Yet, Obama refuses to release transcripts in regard to his education...hmmmmm....  If he's so highly intelligent, what's the hold up on that?  Sorry, I just don't see it.

Sarah shows more experience in pertinent areas as supported by the link I provided.  Obama can talk a good talk, and like yourself, sometimes he puts together eloquant verbage that sounds great to the eager ear, but in essence he isn't saying jack squat.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:47   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 03 2008,17:36)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,17:19)
Yes, unless there were mitigating circumstances. If her ex brother-in-law did indeed taser her nephew and did indeed make death threats against her father, then I'd give her a pass on that one. In that case, I'd do the same.

Don't you think that trying to shift the focus from her actions to his actions is just a tad obvious?

More to the point, don't you imagine that if the accusations against her brother-in-law are accurate, he would have been dismissed WITHOUT her abusing her office? Elected officials are public servants, and firing someone just because you disagree with their course of action is an abuse of that trust. It is not admirable in the least. In fact, I think that elected officials should take extra pains to distance themselves from personnel decisions when they are personally or emotionally involved with the situation. Obviously you disagree; you'd do the same thing yourself...
   
Quote
I tried to make it clear with many examples--Nixon, Johnson, Carter, Gore, Cheney--I see no reason why "experience, legislative acumen and achievements" are such a big deal. If I did, then I never would have supported Obama in the first place.

Those are examples of folks who you think screwed up in leadership roles despite having that experience. You are ignoring the real point here, that experience and intelligence and the ability to surround yourself with capable smart people are necessary but not sufficient. Yes, people who should have been better leaders, based on those parameters, can still screw up. Nobody is supporting that strawman. Here's the real issue. What about situations where somebody comes into office without much experience,  moderate-to-low intelligence, or no real history of association with smart capable people? One recent example of such a case would be, as others have pointed out, the current occupant. How did that work out?

God, I hope you go after him for that one, Heddle.  Gag.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:48   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,23:42)
Quote
Whatever your thoughts on Obama's political philosophy, it is absolutely obvious that he has an extremely high verbal IQ and corresponding grasp of nuanced and difficult concepts. A very vigorous and articulate intellect capable of wrestling complex and subtle ideas to the mat in real-time is plainly evident.


High verbal IQ perhaps, but I'd put him up against Sarah in ability to grasp difficult concepts.  You just like the guy because you relate to his "high verbal IQ".  Everyone relates to people who hold similiar qualities to their own.

 
Quote
Palin has a sunny, spunky presentation, and she clearly has some ability. But she doesn't have the intellect Obama displays. Not even close.


Yet, Obama refuses to release transcripts in regard to his education...hmmmmm....  If he's so highly intelligent, what's the hold up on that?  Sorry, I just don't see it.

Sarah shows more experience in pertinent areas as supported by the link I provided.  Obama can talk a good talk, and like yourself, sometimes he puts together eloquant verbage that sounds great to the eager ear, but in essence he isn't saying jack squat.

But FTK, you're missing the point that people can (and do) ignore all this identity politics crapola and focus on the issues.

Why don't you try doing that? Is it the same reason why, whenever anyone tries to discuss anything scientific with you, you run away?

Louis

P.S. I'm watching the VP debate on UK channel 4 atm. I think Palin comes across very nicely btw (apart from the occasional error, but so what, I wouldn't do that well on the podium). I don't get why you are hating on Biden, he seems reasonably personable thus far.

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:50   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,23:47)
[SNIP]
God, I hope you go after him for that one, Heddle.  Gag.

Go after him for WHAT? Politely pointing out the fallacious nature of Heddle's position?

I have a fervent wish that just ONCE you'd engage in a discussion with good faith and without those chips on your shoulder.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:55   

I'm not "hating on Biden".  I said nice things about his performance at my blog.  I only got nasty about him at my blog once when a commenter refered to me as "masterbating over Sarah".   I let the bastard have it, and Biden got caught up in my anger at the same time.

Honestly, like I've said before, I'm not going to cry in my beer if Obama gets elected.  The way I see it, it doesn't really matter who gets elected....the Washington wheel spins on.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:55   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 03 2008,18:15)
I'm frustrated because there are very intellectual elitist people behind the scenes, writing speeches and preparing PR who are deliberately manipulating the "folksiness" of Palin

Indeed, the obviousness of the manipulation by the repubs has been a little startling this year. The GOP convention was really something. Fred Thompson, notorious DC cocktail partier and gucci-wearing lobbyist, praising McCain for not being one of those cocktail partying establishment types? The truly stunning moment was Rudy Giuliani, with a sneering tone, ridiculing Obama for being "too cosmopolitan" Rudy Giuliani. Former Mayor of New York city. Sneering at someone for being too cosmopolitan. At that point I wondered, is this crowd really going to fall for that?

Yes. Yes they are.

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,17:59   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,23:55)
[SNIP Excuses]

Honestly, like I've said before, I'm not going to cry in my beer if Obama gets elected.  The way I see it, it doesn't really matter who gets elected....the Washington wheel spins on.

Well we agree pretty much on THAT at least.

Louis

P.S. Don't vote, the government might get in.

P.P.S. Do I need to point out which bit is humour and which isn't?

--------------
Bye.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,18:00   

More on comparing Palin to Obama....

...and here's another link.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,18:01   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 03 2008,23:55)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 03 2008,18:15)
I'm frustrated because there are very intellectual elitist people behind the scenes, writing speeches and preparing PR who are deliberately manipulating the "folksiness" of Palin

Indeed, the obviousness of the manipulation by the repubs has been a little startling this year. The GOP convention was really something. Fred Thompson, notorious DC cocktail partier and gucci-wearing lobbyist, praising McCain for not being one of those cocktail partying establishment types? The truly stunning moment was Rudy Giuliani, with a sneering tone, ridiculing Obama for being "too cosmopolitan" Rudy Giuliani. Former Mayor of New York city. Sneering at someone for being too cosmopolitan. At that point I wondered, is this crowd really going to fall for that?

Yes. Yes they are.

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

H.L. Mencken

Louis

ETA: That quote works equally well without the word "American" by the way.

--------------
Bye.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,18:07   

Quote
Why don't you try doing that? Is it the same reason why, whenever anyone tries to discuss anything scientific with you, you run away?


Louis.  Dear, dear Louis.  I don't run away from anything.  In fact, the last post I wrote on the RK thread has been highly overlooked.  People took a few pot shots, but there are at least half a dozen pertinent issues or questions that were left unanswered or addressed.  We even lost Tom in the discussion.

I'll get back to it when the mood strikes me.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,18:13   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,00:07)
Quote
Why don't you try doing that? Is it the same reason why, whenever anyone tries to discuss anything scientific with you, you run away?


Louis.  Dear, dear Louis.  I don't run away from anything.

[SNIP]

You don't?

Then you do a spectacular impersonation of running away. I could count the substantive posts you've made on any science topic here on the fingers of one banana.

Your post hasn't been ignored, it's been dissected. Of course you could deal with those dissections, but you won't, we all know your behavioural pattern. Who do you think you're fooling?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,18:14   

Hey, who let FTK out of her cage?

Steve?  Hey, we need a moderator here.  Cleanup on aisle 5.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,18:16   

The religious right has proven to be a cheap date. They used to hate McCain, and many of the RR leaders who earlier this year said they absolutely would not vote for him have come out in force after he chose a bible-thumper for what is essentially a cosmetic position with almost no authority or power.

(The actuarial tables say McCain has a 75% chance of making it 8 more years, and that's before you factor in that the world's absolute best health care is afforded to a president.)

I actually liked McCain in 2000, when he would tell the intolerant bible thumpers what he really thought of them, but he learned from the harsh 2000 experience that a candidate who will tell vicious lies and play to racism and such can beat an honest candidate. And so he's using those Rovian methods this time around.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,18:29   

Reports suggest that McCain is shifting his advertising to 100% negative ads against Obama. We'll see if the fear-mongering and division tactics of Rove can pull it off. My guess is no.

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,18:33   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 03 2008,19:29)
Reports suggest that McCain is shifting his advertising to 100% negative ads against Obama. We'll see if the fear-mongering and division tactics of Rove can pull it off. My guess is no.

Seems that way here in Ohio.

McCain lies like a fundie.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,18:34   

BTW have we ever had a President and Vice President who've both taught constitutional law? Not in my lifetime. After the 8 years of shamefully unconstitutional behavior, it'll be a refreshing change.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,18:36   

Intrade certainly doesn't think McCain'll pull it out. He's trading at 29.9 at the moment.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,18:38   

BTW last weekend George Will on This Week said the GOP was a "shrinking party". Anybody know what he was referring to? Have GOP registration numbers gone way down lately?

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,19:07   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,18:42)
High verbal IQ perhaps, but I'd put him up against Sarah in ability to grasp difficult concepts.  You just like the guy because you relate to his "high verbal IQ".  Everyone relates to people who hold similiar qualities to their own.
Quote
Palin has a sunny, spunky presentation, and she clearly has some ability. But she doesn't have the intellect Obama displays. Not even close.

Yet, Obama refuses to release transcripts in regard to his education...hmmmmm....  If he's so highly intelligent, what's the hold up on that?  Sorry, I just don't see it.

Sarah shows more experience in pertinent areas as supported by the link I provided.  Obama can talk a good talk, and like yourself, sometimes he puts together eloquant verbage that sounds great to the eager ear, but in essence he isn't saying jack squat.

Verbal IQ refers to more than facility with words. It also encompasses the ability to think abstractly, to detect and articulate analogies, and to grasp and even originate conceptual representations by means of complex grammatical and syntactical constructions. In real time. This is not a superficial skill independent of thinking. In many senses this is thinking. And one does not need documentation from school records to observe Obama's obvious talent in this regard.  

With that in mind, I don't see evidence that Sarah possesses ability comparable to Obama on that score. And without making any claims about myself, whether I like him for possessing those skills is another question.  

That said, there are other forms of intelligence, and other media of abstraction (mathematics being the most powerful, but less relevant to the tasks undertaken by a president).  

And that said, it doesn't necessarily follow that Obama will be a good president.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,19:37   

I have to say I'm a little puzzled by the size of the moves on Intrade today. Obama's up 7 points today, at the moment he's a little over 72%. McCain's down 5, to 29. I don't know why there's this much movement today.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,19:53   

Scratch that last comment. I see what happened. McCain gave up on Michigan last night, and that means he's probably toast.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,20:37   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 03 2008,15:15)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,21:45)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,15:16)
Jumping Jeezus on a pogostick:

   
Quote
Rich Lowry:
I'm sure I'm not the only male in America who, when Palin dropped her first wink, sat up a little straighter on the couch and said, "Hey, I think she just winked at me." And her smile. By the end, when she clearly knew she was doing well, it was so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing. It sent little starbursts through the screen and ricocheting around the living rooms of America. This is a quality that can't be learned; it's either something you have or you don't, and man, she's got it.


I'm sure you weren't the only one, but I should hope the others would have the sense not to admit it.

If Obama had picked a Sarah Palin, you guys would be salivating all over yourselves while singing her praises.

Although there is that elitist group of individuals here who would still poo poo her for being too "folksy".   :angry:

No one's poopooing Palin for BEING folksy (more power to her on that front in fact), people are poopooing the transparent use of her apparent folksiness as an electioneering tool. A tool that explicitly distracts from the issues of substance and causes people to focus on issues of form.

Such behaviour is a tool of exploitation of the electorate NO MATTER WHO DOES IT. Do you want a list of example that the "liberal leftist wing dings" (or whatever convenient caricature you have in mind) use?

As usual FTK it's not a matter of which team Palin belongs to (at least for me, I don't have a dog in the hunt after all) it's a matter of the transparent tactics of exploitation.

Take for example the Labour party here in the UK (traditionally left wing, although recent years have seen them arguably drift to the centre right), a party that has engaged in EXACTLY this kind of tactic. The Conservative party here in the UK (traditionally right wing, although recent years have seen them arguably drift to the centre right also) does exactly the same thing also. It's part of the raft of tactics that effectively disenfranchise the electorate without having to do so 100% overtly.

I know you don't get this, despite it being repeated a lot, but it really, really, REALLY, REEEEEAAAAAAALLLLLLLYYYYYY is not about identity politics. I'm sure Sarah Palin is a lovely person, I'm chuffed to bits you have found a candidate that you resonate with so well. I simply don't care about any of it, nor do I care how nice a chap Obama or Biden is or isn't. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. What DOES matter is what stances these people espouse on the various issues of the day, why, how they've voted/acted etc.

I'm frustrated because there are very intellectual elitist people behind the scenes, writing speeches and preparing PR who are deliberately manipulating the "folksiness" of Palin (and the "blackness" of Obama no doubt, and the "war heroness" of McCain etc etc etc) deliberately so people like you and me will ignore the issues and be swayed by various prejudicial appeals. It works on everyone, we're all susceptible to it. The trick is to remember that you're susceptible and try not to be.

The chip on your shoulder about "elitists" here is ridiculous. I think if you read what people actually wrote once in a while, instead of projecting your own issues onto others, you'd find very few (if any) such people anywhere.

Louis

Louis, you're missing the point. Palin shoots out little starbursts every which way. That's why Republican men and FTK love her.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,20:39   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,15:19)
I tried to make it clear with many examples--Nixon, Johnson, Carter, Gore, Cheney--I see no reason why "experience, legislative acumen and achievements" are such a big deal. If I did, then I never would have supported Obama in the first place.

Well, if Palin can swing you to vote for McCain, evidently intelligence and being well-informed doesn't count for shit, either.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,20:41   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,15:42)
Yet, Obama refuses to release transcripts in regard to his education...hmmmmm....  If he's so highly intelligent, what's the hold up on that?  Sorry, I just don't see it.

Perhaps you can explain why the GOP was so hot to shut down the Troopergate investigation in Alaska?

If she's so highly moral, what's the hold up on that?  Sorry, I just don't see it.

PS: McCain hasn't released his medical records, either.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,20:42   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 03 2008,15:55)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 03 2008,18:15)
I'm frustrated because there are very intellectual elitist people behind the scenes, writing speeches and preparing PR who are deliberately manipulating the "folksiness" of Palin

Indeed, the obviousness of the manipulation by the repubs has been a little startling this year. The GOP convention was really something. Fred Thompson, notorious DC cocktail partier and gucci-wearing lobbyist, praising McCain for not being one of those cocktail partying establishment types? The truly stunning moment was Rudy Giuliani, with a sneering tone, ridiculing Obama for being "too cosmopolitan" Rudy Giuliani. Former Mayor of New York city. Sneering at someone for being too cosmopolitan. At that point I wondered, is this crowd really going to fall for that?

Yes. Yes they are.

At the convention, didn't Romney also blast "Northeast Elites" or some such?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,20:44   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 03 2008,16:16)
(The actuarial tables say McCain has a 75% chance of making it 8 more years, and that's before you factor in that the world's absolute best health care is afforded to a president.)

I would bet money that McCain won't be in good enough shape to run again in 2012, or if he does, that he won't make it to 2016.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,21:13   

Quote
And one does not need documentation from school records to observe Obama's obvious talent in this regard.  


Hmmm....if I made a statement like that, I would get blasted to hell and back.  You've made this claim about Obama's "obvious" talent several times now without any specifics as to why this talent is "obvious".   There's also something funky going on in regard to why he won't release his transcripts.  

When I look at the comparison between the achievements and experience of both Obama and Palin, Palin simply outshines him.  Regardless of how much "talent" he might have, she seems to have put her spunkiness to work for her and soared to the top rather quickly.

I'd be interested in specifics regarding why you find Obama so highly intellectual and talented.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,21:49   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,19:13)
When I look at the comparison between the achievements and experience of both Obama and Palin, Palin simply outshines him.  Regardless of how much "talent" he might have, she seems to have put her spunkiness to work for her and soared to the top rather quickly.

And in other news, freedom is slavery and peace is war.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,21:58   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,22:13)
     
Quote
And one does not need documentation from school records to observe Obama's obvious talent in this regard.

Hmmm....if I made a statement like that, I would get blasted to hell and back.
 
Why? One needn't peruse his childhood growth records to observe that he is tall and slender. That may be directly observed. The qualities to which I refer above (e.g. the syntactic and conceptual complexity evident as he speaks) are not quite as unidimensional as height, and do entail somewhat more subjective judgment in their assessment - but they may, nevertheless, be directly observed. But, to bastardize Nietzsche's comment vis great books, "people are like mirrors: if an ape looks in, no angel will look out."
     
Quote
When I look at the comparison between the achievements and experience of both Obama and Palin, Palin simply outshines him. Regardless of how much "talent" he might have, she seems to have put her spunkiness to work for her and soared to the top rather quickly.

I'm not making any particular points regarding Obama's achievements, or Palin's relative achievements. Indeed, I remarked immediately following the Republican convention that "...objectively, she must be a smart and capable woman. You don't get where she has without some of that." Her miserably poor performance in television interviews dimmed that estimation to a considerable degree, however.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,22:04   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 03 2008,21:44)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 03 2008,16:16)
(The actuarial tables say McCain has a 75% chance of making it 8 more years, and that's before you factor in that the world's absolute best health care is afforded to a president.)

I would bet money that McCain won't be in good enough shape to run again in 2012, or if he does, that he won't make it to 2016.

Arden has a lot more time to comment here since losing his job at AIG.

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,22:28   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,17:47)
God, I hope you go after him for that one, Heddle.  Gag.

Gag?  What part of that was offensive? The part about two wrongs (Palin's alleged abuse of her office and her former brother-in-law's alleged abuses) not making a right? What part of your superior moral code allows that, FtK?

Or the part about Heddle setting up a strawman? Since you are also prone to that sort of behavior, it is not surprising that you are upset when somebody points it out, I suppose. But it is still a shady argumentative tactic, don't you think?

Or was it the comparison of Palin to the current occupant?

Please be specific.

Thanks.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,23:13   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 03 2008,21:58)
       
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,22:13)
               
Quote
And one does not need documentation from school records to observe Obama's obvious talent in this regard.

Hmmm....if I made a statement like that, I would get blasted to hell and back.
 
Why? One needn't peruse his childhood growth records to observe that he is tall and slender. That may be directly observed. The qualities to which I refer above (e.g. the syntactic and conceptual complexity evident as he speaks) are not quite as unidimensional as height, and do entail somewhat more subjective judgment in their assessment - but they may, nevertheless, be directly observed. But, to bastardize Nietzsche's comment vis great books, "people are like mirrors: if an ape looks in, no angel will look out."
               
Quote
When I look at the comparison between the achievements and experience of both Obama and Palin, Palin simply outshines him. Regardless of how much "talent" he might have, she seems to have put her spunkiness to work for her and soared to the top rather quickly.

I'm not making any particular points regarding Obama's achievements, or Palin's relative achievements. Indeed, I remarked immediately following the Republican convention that "...objectively, she must be a smart and capable woman. You don't get where she has without some of that." Her miserably poor performance in television interviews dimmed that estimation to a considerable degree, however.

Ooooh Weeee....way to skirt the question there, Billy boy.  Let's try again.  I'll highlight a few words to help you out.


       
Quote
 You wrote:      
Quote
And one does not need documentation from school records to observe Obama's obvious talent in this regard.



Hmmm....if I made a statement like that, I would get blasted to hell and back.  You've made this claim about Obama's "obvious" talent several times now without any specifics as to why this talent is "obvious".   There's also something funky going on in regard to why he won't release his transcripts.


If I claimed someone had "obvious talent" without backing up my claim, you folks would flip out...  

[whining]

"Why won't you tell us *why* it's obvious that he has talent in this regard?  What have you observed or read that makes you feel that way?  We want specifics, damn it."

[/whining]

You wrote:
       
Quote
The qualities to which I refer above (e.g. the syntactic and conceptual complexity evident as he speaks) are not quite as unidimensional as height, and do entail somewhat more subjective judgment in their assessment - but they may, nevertheless, be directly observed.


That's not an answer. That's a "well, because I just know... that's why" response (more bs).  Specifics please. If his experience doesn't match Palin's and his proof of intellect is a mystery, what is it that so impresses you.  

So, again, I ask...

       
Quote
I'd be interested in specifics regarding why you find Obama so highly intellectual and talented.


You wrote:
       
Quote
Her miserably poor performance in television interviews dimmed that estimation to a considerable degree, however.


Something is amiss here, and I have to blame it on the left wingers.  The Couric Palin and the Palin we've seen live are not even the same person.  She exudes confidence, intelligence and charm when she's *debating* live in front of 70,000,000 people, yet she looks uncomfortable in front of Katie Couric.  It doesn't add up.  I've seen her in interviews and debates before she was chosen for the vp running mate, and she never came across like she did in the Couric interview.  Everyone knows Katie is a left winger.  I don't know how those interviews were conducted or how they were edited, but something is just *wrong* there.

It should be obvious that a debate with a guy like Biden, when under such pressure to do well, would be much, much more difficult to pull off than a little interview with Couric.  Something is amiss.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,23:34   

Here's another question...

What exactly is the *change* that Obama is offering?  What specifically is he going to do that is so much more advantageous for the America people?  He's not Bush... granted, but what exactly does his notion of *change* amount to?

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,01:52   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,20:13)
When I look at the comparison between the achievements and experience of both Obama and Palin, Palin simply outshines him.


Hey FTK help me out here...by what measure?

I'll list Obama's achievements just as a US Senator at the national level and you list Palin's achievements in any capacity anywhere and let's compare. If Palin's record comes anywhere close to Obama's, I'll promise to buy you dinner. (I don't welch like the good DrDr and I'm not Welsh like some others around here.) If her record doesn't compare favorably, you only have to admit you have been fawningly credulous about her supposed achievements and that Palin doesn't shine at all and is, in fact, rather obviously dim. (By comparison of course.)

Then we'll move on to their life and world experience.

I'll start...Here's a summary of the Congressional Record at the Library of Congress as given at TheZoo:

               
Quote
Senator Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored 570 bills in the 109th and 110th Congress.

Senator Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored 15 bills that have become LAW since he joined the Senate in 2005.

Senator Obama has also introduced amendments to 50 bills, of which 16 were adopted by the Senate.

His record is in fact quite impressive for a junior Senator from Illinois.

Most of his legislative effort has been in the areas of:

Energy Efficiency and Climate Change (25 bills)
Health care (21 bills) and public health (20 bills)
Consumer protection/labor (14 bills)
The needs of Veterans and the Armed Forces (13 bills)
Congressional Ethics and Accountability (12 bills)
Foreign Policy (10 bills)
Voting and Elections (9 bills)
Education (7 bills)
Hurricane Katrina Relief (6)
The Environment (5 bills)
Homeland Security (4 bills)
Discrimination (4 bills)


You can find a detailed listing of the bill numbers at either link and check up on them.

What of our darling Sarah?

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,02:01   

Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 04 2008,02:52)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,20:13)
When I look at the comparison between the achievements and experience of both Obama and Palin, Palin simply outshines him.


Hey FTK help me out here...by what measure?

Well, she does have some qualifications. She left Wasilla with $20 million in debt. Being able to rack up huge debt is critical for being a movement conservative:



   
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,02:20   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 04 2008,01:01)
 
Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 04 2008,02:52)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,20:13)
When I look at the comparison between the achievements and experience of both Obama and Palin, Palin simply outshines him.


Hey FTK help me out here...by what measure?

Well, she does have some qualifications. She left Wasilla with $20 million in debt. Being able to rack up huge debt is critical for being a movement conservative:



Well, okay...I'll give you that.

But doesn't every resident get $1000 back from the government to help offset this? It should only take one third of the town's population to give that up and make it right again.

And Wasilla got a damn fine hockey rink for the kids and their hockey-moms!

Who knows, in the long run maybe Palin's efforts could produce the next Roenik, Modano, Drury or Chelios.

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,02:45   

Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 04 2008,01:20)
Who knows, in the long run maybe Palin's efforts could produce the next Roenik, Modano, Drury or Chelios.

...either that or Armageddon...




Can I haz edit?

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,08:14   

Quote
I'll list Obama's achievements just as a US Senator at the national level and you list Palin's achievements in any capacity anywhere and let's compare.


Um...I already listed 3 comparison lists, and they pretty much lay it out, dude.  

Yes, we already know Obama's good at voting yea, nay, or "present", and of course he had a hand in developing some of those bills...but, to what extent?  Who knows.  

 
Quote
His record is in fact quite impressive for a junior Senator from Illinois.


That says nothing.   If he's so impressive, he sure didn't show those skills when trying to better the Chicago educational system.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,08:22   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 03 2008,23:13)
Something is amiss here, and I have to blame it on the left wingers.  The Couric Palin and the Palin we've seen live are not even the same person.  She exudes confidence, intelligence and charm when she's *debating* live in front of 70,000,000 people, yet she looks uncomfortable in front of Katie Couric.  It doesn't add up.  I've seen her in interviews and debates before she was chosen for the vp running mate, and she never came across like she did in the Couric interview.  Everyone knows Katie is a left winger.  I don't know how those interviews were conducted or how they were edited, but something is just *wrong* there.

It should be obvious that a debate with a guy like Biden, when under such pressure to do well, would be much, much more difficult to pull off than a little interview with Couric.  Something is amiss.

FtK

The difference between that interview and the debate can be summed up in a few words.

Follow-up questions.  They were not allowed in the debate, but Couric was able to ask them. Those were the times that Palin was revealed to be out of her depth.

When/if she gives another interview with an interviewer interested in getting an answer and not a stump speech, we will see the "Couric Palin" again. When do you think she will be appearing on "Meet the Press"? I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Don't you find it embarrassing to have to hide behind the sad excuse of the liberal media?  If your candidate is such a great and brilliant person, why can't she triumph over those weak-minded liberals? Blaming others for her shortcomings is a pretty pathetic excuse...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,08:32   

I guess I missed Biden's interview with Couric, so it's difficult to compare how he would have done answering the same questions.  Biden avoids questions, falls back on his talking poinst, and outright lies about McCain's positions all the time.  He's a plagerist, but you never hear much about that.  If Sarah had done something like that, she'd be crucified.

Sarah did come back with follow up responses in regard to Biden's statements several times during the debate.

I have yet to hear what the big, miraculous *change* is going to be from either Biden or Obama.  The only change we'll see is that Obama's sitting in the oval office rather than Bush.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,08:45   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,08:32)
I guess I missed Biden's interview with Couric, so it's difficult to compare how he would have done answering the same questions.  Biden avoids questions, falls back on his talking poinst, and outright lies about McCain's positions all the time.  He's a plagerist, but you never hear much about that.  If Sarah had done something like that, she'd be crucified.

I guess you did. Here it is.. And here is his interview on Meet the Press. Of course, we all know that actual facts will not change your opinions, so you won't bother to read them, just like you didn't bother to pay attention to them when they were happening.
Quote
Sarah did come back with follow up responses in regard to Biden's statements several times during the debate.

I am sorry to see that you don't understand the difference between follow-up questions and responses. But I'm not surprised.

FYI, Kathleen Parker, no member of the liberal media, says this in her latest column  
Quote
Before we relax into giddiness or cynicism, however, it's important to consider that a debate differs from an interview in significant ways. A debate is a point-counterpoint exercise that allows little opportunity for probing or follow-up. An interview requires that a candidate explain an idea in depth and offer specifics.

The Katie Couric interview that was such a disaster for Palin -- and that prompted me to conclude that she was out of her league and should leave the ticket -- was awful precisely because Palin couldn't explain anything. For whatever reason, she couldn't even speak coherently.


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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,08:48   

Bill has PM'd me with further reasons why he believes Obama's intellect exceeds Palin's.  Because of a few things he revealed, he won't be posting it publicly.  Just wanted you folks to know he's not avoiding my questions.

Still not sure I'm terribly impressed by his response though.....I'll have to mull it over for a while.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,08:58   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 04 2008,08:45)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,08:32)
I guess I missed Biden's interview with Couric, so it's difficult to compare how he would have done answering the same questions.  Biden avoids questions, falls back on his talking poinst, and outright lies about McCain's positions all the time.  He's a plagerist, but you never hear much about that.  If Sarah had done something like that, she'd be crucified.

I guess you did. Here it is.. And here is his interview on Meet the Press. Of course, we all know that actual facts will not change your opinions, so you won't bother to read them, just like you didn't bother to pay attention to them when they were happening.
Quote
Sarah did come back with follow up responses in regard to Biden's statements several times during the debate.

I am sorry to see that you don't understand the difference between follow-up questions and responses. But I'm not surprised.

FYI, Kathleen Parker, no member of the liberal media, says this in her latest column  
Quote
Before we relax into giddiness or cynicism, however, it's important to consider that a debate differs from an interview in significant ways. A debate is a point-counterpoint exercise that allows little opportunity for probing or follow-up. An interview requires that a candidate explain an idea in depth and offer specifics.

The Katie Couric interview that was such a disaster for Palin -- and that prompted me to conclude that she was out of her league and should leave the ticket -- was awful precisely because Palin couldn't explain anything. For whatever reason, she couldn't even speak coherently.

You're right.  I'm not going to base my decision soley on the Couric interview.  I'm going to consider their records and what they've accomlished.  

I also truly believe that she can more than handle the demands of the VP position, and she doesn't carry the baggage that Biden does.  I want something *new* in Washington.  What we've had *isn't* working.  We need someone who isn't afraid to step on toes and fight for us...the middle class who are struggling.  She comes across as sincere and determined to do what's right regardless of the consequences, and her record shows just that.

So, no, you won't be changing my mind, and if Obama/Biden win the election, that's fine by me.  But, I'd sure like to see what Palin could do for us.  I'm sick to death of all the crap and corruption going on in Washington at present, and she represents a change to that BS.  Obama/Biden have several ugly skeletons in their closets that nausiate me.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,09:12   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,08:58)
So, no, you won't be changing my mind, and if Obama/Biden win the election, that's fine by me.  But, I'd sure like to see what Palin could do for us.  I'm sick to death of all the crap and corruption going on in Washington at present, and she represents a change to that BS.  Obama/Biden have several ugly skeletons in their closets that nausiate me.

Consider their records?  If you had seriously done that already, we wouldn't be discussing this at all. You'd understand that her record indicates that she would give us more years of the failed policies of the neocons, leavened with even more naivete about the rest of the world than W had when he took office. There would be non "change from that BS", it would be higher and deeper BS.

I'm checking out of this for a couple of days; I'll be off the grid. So please don't infer assent from my silence.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,09:13   

OMG, I just listened to the Couric/Biden interview you linked to.  YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FREAKING KIDDING ME.  You think *that* "interview" was comparable to the Couric/Palin interview?  Couric's all smiley and jovial....asking questions with absolutely no substance & NO FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS.  They had a simple conversation about the campaign trail.  

In the Palin interview, Couric looks like an interrogator.  Sheesh...she never smiled...she looked like she was going for the gotcha.  She questions her about real issues regarding her stances on foreign policy, energy, etc., etc.

You're an idiot if you think the two interview are in any way comparable.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,09:13   

What our next president will swear/affirm in January:
Quote
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."


Seems like we'd want someone who actually knows and understands and respects our Constitution in office.  Like a recognized constitutional law scholar.  Or a former president of the Harvard Law Review.

But of course in wingnut land, actual expertise counts for nothing - it's all about charm and twinkling and perceived meanness.  Eight years ago, it was all about bjs instead of the candidate's admittedly poor academic, business, and substance abuse record.  Is it any surprise that under this kind of leadership we have rampant anti-intellectualism and the financial mess?

Why would we *want* someone just like ourselves for President?  Gimme someone more intelligent, more thoughtful, more experienced, more calm and level-headed.

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,09:22   

Quote (csadams @ Oct. 04 2008,09:13)
What our next president will swear/affirm in January:
Quote
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."


Seems like we'd want someone who actually knows and understands and respects our Constitution in office.  Like a recognized constitutional law scholar.  Or a former president of the Harvard Law Review.

But of course in wingnut land, actual expertise counts for nothing - it's all about charm and twinkling and perceived meanness.  Eight years ago, it was all about bjs instead of the candidate's admittedly poor academic, business, and substance abuse record.  Is it any surprise that under this kind of leadership we have rampant anti-intellectualism and the financial mess?

Why would we *want* someone just like ourselves for President?  Gimme someone more intelligent, more thoughtful, more experienced, more calm and level-headed.

Hello?  I laid out a comparison of the two. Sarah has done a lot for Alaska, and she's honest.  That counts for a lot.   Obama's held hands with some unsavory characters, and honestly I don't trust that he won't do it again.  

His "intellectualism" is still under question as we know nothing about how he did academically.  His transcripts are kept under lock and key.

Again, it all boils down to the elitist mentality held by most of you folks.  Obama fits the elitist mold quite nicely...it's no wonder you folks love him.

I have to go help my husband get some work done this weekend.  

Later....

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,09:31   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,09:48)
Bill has PM'd me with further reasons why he believes Obama's intellect exceeds Palin's.  Because of a few things he revealed, he won't be posting it publicly.  Just wanted you folks to know he's not avoiding my questions.

Still not sure I'm terribly impressed by his response though.....I'll have to mull it over for a while.

Ultimately, as citizens we are asked to make our personal estimations of talent, ability, leadership, and qualifications of candidates relative to the offices to which they aspire. My estimation is that Obama has the force of intellect required for the presidency - a necessary but not sufficient qualification for the job. McCain also meets that necessary condition in my opinion (formal testing has established a McCain IQ of 133), BTW, as does Biden. Palin does not, in my opinion, as evidenced by her performance in recent interviews. However, her deficits may be in familiarity and expertise on the issues, and if that is the case might be remedied were she to become a student of national and international affairs for a few years. Either way, her performance in those more demanding interview settings disqualifies her for the presidency at present, at least for this voter.    

That's all I am asserting: my view. YMMV.

ETA: I've been poking around the intertubes vis this issue of "IQ and Obama" (for the first time) and see that the discussion is a quagmire of racism and unproductive incivility. I don't want to go there, so this is my final post on the topic.

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,10:36   

Um, Ftk, besides knowing nothing about: biology, geology, physics, cosmology, chemistry, literary analysis, philosophy, constitutional law, logical argumentation, or dialogue, must we also add 7th Grade Social Studies to the list.  I'm starting to feel badly for you.

By "sponsoring or co-sponsoring" several hundred bills, Obama was responsible for the document that went to vote.  He didn't merely vote "yea" or "nay", he crafted the bill.  Certainly, he didn't write every word of every bill, but until someone proves otherwise I will assume that he had a very good grasp on the intricacies of each bill (as I would assume of every legislator who sponsors a bill).

So, your accusation of "we know he can vote" misses the mark by such a wide margin it's hard to put into words.

On unresolved business, would you care to actually back up ny of your statements of Palin "knowing her stuff"?

Please, list for us just one question from the debate in which she knew her stuff.  It shouldn't be that hard if she's as on top of things as you say.

DEFEND YOUR CANDIDATE FOR SHIT SAKE!  Most people would be bothered by not being able to come up with one sentence in their own words to defend a point they made.

You, OTOH, somehow find this level of stupidity a virtue.

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,10:48   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 04 2008,08:22)
Don't you find it embarrassing to have to hide behind the sad excuse of the liberal media?  If your candidate is such a great and brilliant person, why can't she triumph over those weak-minded liberals? Blaming others for her shortcomings is a pretty pathetic excuse...

She should. In fact, all Republicans should. But, I doubt they would ever admit to it.

I mean seriously.  The GOP wants the public to believe that they are the only party that can protect America from terrorists, dictators, and other assorted evil-doers.  But, they wither under fire from Katie Couric.  Katie Fuckin' Couric, fercrissakes!  If they can't out perky her, what will they ever do if Putin raises its head?

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,11:37   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,09:22)
Quote (csadams @ Oct. 04 2008,09:13)
What our next president will swear/affirm in January:
 
Quote
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."


Seems like we'd want someone who actually knows and understands and respects our Constitution in office.  Like a recognized constitutional law scholar.  Or a former president of the Harvard Law Review.

But of course in wingnut land, actual expertise counts for nothing - it's all about charm and twinkling and perceived meanness.  Eight years ago, it was all about bjs instead of the candidate's admittedly poor academic, business, and substance abuse record.  Is it any surprise that under this kind of leadership we have rampant anti-intellectualism and the financial mess?

Why would we *want* someone just like ourselves for President?  Gimme someone more intelligent, more thoughtful, more experienced, more calm and level-headed.

Hello?  I laid out a comparison of the two. Sarah has done a lot for Alaska, and she's honest.  That counts for a lot.   Obama's held hands with some unsavory characters, and honestly I don't trust that he won't do it again.  

His "intellectualism" is still under question as we know nothing about how he did academically.  His transcripts are kept under lock and key.

Again, it all boils down to the elitist mentality held by most of you folks.  Obama fits the elitist mold quite nicely...it's no wonder you folks love him.

I have to go help my husband get some work done this weekend.  

Later....

And yet we don't see anybody calling for McCain or Palin to release their college transcripts. Wonder why that is? FTK, could you actually debate the issues rather than engaging in the time honored Republican practice of character assassination?

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,12:03   

Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 04 2008,09:37)
And yet we don't see anybody calling for McCain or Palin to release their college transcripts. Wonder why that is?

Well, I don't know about McCain, but for Palin, be fair, that'd be like six different schools, and all just to find out how she did in her sports journalism degree at Idaho State. I doubt we'd find out much that isn't already abundantly obvious.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,12:09   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 04 2008,12:03)
Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 04 2008,09:37)
And yet we don't see anybody calling for McCain or Palin to release their college transcripts. Wonder why that is?

Well, I don't know about McCain, but for Palin, be fair, that'd be like six different schools, and all just to find out how she did in her sports journalism degree at Idaho State. I doubt we'd find out much that isn't already abundantly obvious.

McCain finished 894th out of 899 in his class at Annapolis.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,12:22   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 04 2008,10:09)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 04 2008,12:03)
   
Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 04 2008,09:37)
And yet we don't see anybody calling for McCain or Palin to release their college transcripts. Wonder why that is?

Well, I don't know about McCain, but for Palin, be fair, that'd be like six different schools, and all just to find out how she did in her sports journalism degree at Idaho State. I doubt we'd find out much that isn't already abundantly obvious.

McCain finished 894th out of 899 in his class at Annapolis.

USA! USA! USA!

Apparently McCain was actually so unimpressive in the Air Force that the only reason he was even allowed to fly bomber missions in Vietnam is because his father was an admiral. In other words, he spent all those years in that tiger cage in Hanoi because his father pulled strings for him.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,12:26   

When somebody spends three years as a community organizer, helping the poorest and weakest get better food and shelter and education, and you come along and call him an 'elitist', you just make yourself look stupid. And how elitist can he be if he "held hands with some unsavory characters," how's that work? Maybe he only holds hands with the elite of the unsavory. "and honestly I don't trust that he won't do it again." what, he's going to put a malt liquor fridge in the oval office and invite some Crips over?

It's easy to understand why they're trying to character assassinate the guy. When they talk about issues, they lose. But elitist is pretty mild. The 100% negative ads from McCain just got underway. By mid-month, FtK'll be calling him a communist muslim revolutionary.

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,12:27   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 04 2008,12:22)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 04 2008,10:09)

McCain finished 894th out of 899 in his class at Annapolis.

USA! USA! USA!

Apparently McCain was actually so unimpressive in the Air Force that the only reason he was even allowed to fly bomber missions in Vietnam is because his father was an admiral. In other words, he spent all those years in that tiger cage in Hanoi because his father pulled strings for him.

Umm, Arden, Annapolis is the Naval Academy.

And I have to admit that it is a refreshing change to have someone's parents pull strings to get them into combat, rather than the opposite.  Although, in counterpoint, I have to state that we lost Vietnam and, undoubtedly due to Bush's National Guard service, neither Texas nor Alabama were invaded.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,12:39   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,07:14)
       
Quote
I'll list Obama's achievements just as a US Senator at the national level and you list Palin's achievements in any capacity anywhere and let's compare.


Um...I already listed 3 comparison lists, and they pretty much lay it out, dude.  

Yes, we already know Obama's good at voting yea, nay, or "present", and of course he had a hand in developing some of those bills...but, to what extent?  Who knows.  

           
Quote
His record is in fact quite impressive for a junior Senator from Illinois.


That says nothing.   If he's so impressive, he sure didn't show those skills when trying to better the Chicago educational system.

Yes, yes...I followed your links earlier, dudette. Perhaps you could point out where any of them show actual achievements, not just titles, general duties, resigning in protest and snagging a snowmobile champion as a husband. Summarize her accomplishments of substance for the greater good and then we can compare. If you already have the links, it shouldn't be too hard to make a quick list. Here's another one to help you out.

I'll admit having 5 kids and keeping yourself "Smoking hot in a 'naughty librarian' sort of way" is quite an achievement. However, it's not that unique as demonstrated by the Louis/Arden/carlsonjok wife-envy competition. I could be wrong..."smoking hot" might be a relative measure in their case.

I am impressed with her private sector experience. Not just anyone can be a sportscaster!!one!11! Or a salmon fisherman!! WOW!!!!

Your link to a deranged anti-ACLU site likewise says nothing.

Graduating magna cum laude from Harvard Law School and being President of the Harvard Law Review does say something. (Cue whine about educational records.)

Not that Obama is some man of great stature, but if you had any honesty at all, when you look at what each has accomplished in making a positive impact in people's lives, Palin pales in comparison.

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"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,12:46   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 04 2008,12:26)
When somebody spends three years as a community organizer, helping the poorest and weakest get better food and shelter and education, and you come along and call him an 'elitist', you just make yourself look stupid. And how elitist can he be if he "held hands with some unsavory characters," how's that work? Maybe he only holds hands with the elite of the unsavory. "and honestly I don't trust that he won't do it again." what, he's going to put a malt liquor fridge in the oval office and invite some Crips over?

It's easy to understand why they're trying to character assassinate the guy. When they talk about issues, they lose. But elitist is pretty mild. The 100% negative ads from McCain just got underway. By mid-month, FtK'll be calling him a communist muslim revolutionary.

Yeah, and that's another thing. In the free and open marketplace of ideas republicans can't compete, so they have to create special rules and come up with silly nonsense like how the big bad elitist media and elitist east coasters are preventing them from getting a hearing. Once upon a time Republicans used to be tough, macho kind of folk, now they are afraid of effete liberals like Katie Couric - who never met a puff piece she didn't like. Sad, I tells ya, sad.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,12:51   

Did I say "wife-"?

I meant "mother-".

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"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,13:28   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 03 2008,19:29)
Reports suggest that McCain is shifting his advertising to 100% negative ads against Obama. We'll see if the fear-mongering and division tactics of Rove can pull it off. My guess is no.

I say no as well, but I fear that they will come close enough that the loss will not repudiate the tactics.  Only a blow out, of say a 60% win by popular vote, by Obama and a clean sweep of the electoral college (ok a 75% take of the EC, I can still dream) will show the American public can see past negative identity politics.

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,13:56   

Quote (Paul Flocken @ Oct. 04 2008,13:28)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 03 2008,19:29)
Reports suggest that McCain is shifting his advertising to 100% negative ads against Obama. We'll see if the fear-mongering and division tactics of Rove can pull it off. My guess is no.

I say no as well, but I fear that they will come close enough that the loss will not repudiate the tactics.  Only a blow out, of say a 60% win by popular vote, by Obama and a clean sweep of the electoral college (ok a 75% take of the EC, I can still dream) will show the American public can see past negative identity politics.

Worst is though, is that the Obama seems to 'take the bait' and going the negative route as well (although not 100%). If Obama really is going to take the bait, I think he's in for a rough time since I don't think that those fragile (fragile as in, easy to loose) voters, like Independents, will like that. I don't think he'll win that easily IF he's going to win. I doubt the public is over the identity politics.

Edited for obvious, easy-to-eliminate-by-proofreading mistakes.

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,14:50   

Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 04 2008,12:46)
Yeah, and that's another thing. In the free and open marketplace of ideas republicans can't compete, so they have to create special rules and come up with silly nonsense like how the big bad elitist media and elitist east coasters are preventing them from getting a hearing.

Yeah, and that's another thing. In the free and open marketplace of ideas evidence republicans ID/creationists can't compete, so they have to create special rules change the definition of science and come up with silly nonsense like how the big bad elitist media scientists and elitist east coasters are preventing them from getting a hearing getting their stuff taught as science to public school kids.

Is this what literature professors call parallel structure?  Or just SSDD?

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
simmi



Posts: 38
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,16:11   

Quote (csadams @ Oct. 04 2008,15:50)
 
Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 04 2008,12:46)
Yeah, and that's another thing. In the free and open marketplace of ideas republicans can't compete, so they have to create special rules and come up with silly nonsense like how the big bad elitist media and elitist east coasters are preventing them from getting a hearing.

Yeah, and that's another thing. In the free and open marketplace of ideas evidence republicans ID/creationists can't compete, so they have to create special rules change the definition of science and come up with silly nonsense like how the big bad elitist media scientists and elitist east coasters are preventing them from getting a hearing getting their stuff taught as science to public school kids.

Is this what literature professors call parallel structure?  Or just SSDD?

Actually, one is a subset of the other:


  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,16:19   

Quote (csadams @ Oct. 04 2008,14:50)
Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 04 2008,12:46)
Yeah, and that's another thing. In the free and open marketplace of ideas republicans can't compete, so they have to create special rules and come up with silly nonsense like how the big bad elitist media and elitist east coasters are preventing them from getting a hearing.

Yeah, and that's another thing. In the free and open marketplace of ideas evidence republicans ID/creationists can't compete, so they have to create special rules change the definition of science and come up with silly nonsense like how the big bad elitist media scientists and elitist east coasters are preventing them from getting a hearing getting their stuff taught as science to public school kids.

Is this what literature professors call parallel structure?  Or just SSDD?

IMHO, there is some cross fertilization going on, but it is running from ID to politics...

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,17:25   

Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 04 2008,13:39)
...keeping yourself "Smoking hot in a 'naughty librarian' sort of way" ...

There's nothing "librarian" or "smoking" about ignorance or illiteracy.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,17:30   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Oct. 04 2008,17:25)
Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 04 2008,13:39)
...keeping yourself "Smoking hot in a 'naughty librarian' sort of way" ...

There's nothing "librarian" or "smoking" about ignorance or illiteracy.

I can't ignore the fact that she's kinda milf-y though ;)

  
Reed



Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,18:39   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,06:32)
Biden avoids questions, falls back on his talking poinst, and outright lies about McCain's positions all the time.  He's a plagerist, but you never hear much about that.  If Sarah had done something like that, she'd be crucified.

Err what ? They both ignored questions and spouted talking points instead, and both distorted their opponents positions. My feeling is that Biden did it a little bit less (not surprising since he is undeniably more familiar with the issues), but I found it pretty disgusting on both sides.

Not sure where you get the plagerist part from.

See Afarenis post here for an example http://scienceblogs.com/afarensis/2008/10/02/vp_debate/

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,19:11   

Plagiarism

Biden's debate screw ups

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,19:26   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,19:11)
Plagiarism

Biden's debate screw ups

FTK posts a link to "Biden's debate screw ups" which takes you to johnmccain.com.

It's no wonder you think posting links to AIG counts as "evidence".

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,19:55   

[FTK]

The sky's not blue.  Go here if you doubt me; the following is a site not run by atheists:

www.theskyisgreen.looneybin.com

[/FTK]

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,20:02   

Quote
Biden avoids questions, falls back on his talking poinst, and outright lies about McCain's positions all the time.  He's a plagerist, but you never hear much about that.


It's spelled plagiarism, it happened 43 years ago, he apologized, and we've heard about it 72 billion times. Meanwhile, your girl is trying to get lawyers and politicians to disrupt her *ongoing* ethics investigation. You really need to find something better to do with your time FtK. Embarrassing yourself on the internet is not a great hobby.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,20:05   

Quote
but you never hear much about that.
Yeah, just on his wikipedia page, in the NYTimes, the Washington Post, the LA Times, Slate, Huffington Post, Fox News, Newsbusters, the Weekly Standard, Media Matters, Yahoo, Salon,  370,000 hits on Google....

I'm convinced someone's 'playing' FtK. Nobody could get everything ass backwards all the time, day in, day out, year after year. We're being had.

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,20:06   

In fairness, the plagiarism link is to a third party source, The Washington Post.  The events sort of tickle my memory and shame on Biden.  However, that issue has little relevance to the discussion going on: Palin's apparent inability to reason.

The practice of plagiarism speaks to an ethical lapse.  It is not to be admired, but it does not (by itself) speak to one's ability to reason and think deeply.

Ftk is still avoiding a direct comparison between Palin and Biden except that of a "I'd drink a beer with him/her" type.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,20:42   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,19:11)
Plagiarism

Biden's debate screw ups

Your forgot lying about divesting in Somalia

Oh, no, wait, that is the lesser Maverick that fibbed. :O

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,20:55   

Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 04 2008,20:42)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,19:11)
Plagiarism

Biden's debate screw ups

Your forgot lying about divesting in Somalia

Oh, no, wait, that is the lesser Maverick that fibbed. :O

Maybe, like Ftk, Palin doesn't think people can read.

Edited to see if I can today and to add that I think it's strange that creationists etc. don't think people remember what was said a minute ago.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Reed



Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,21:25   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,17:11)
Plagiarism

I wasn't aware of the Biden plagiarism incidents, so as much as it pains me, thanks for that FTK. Certainly doesn't improve my opinion of Biden.

However... you've conveniently ignored my main objection: Palin clearly spent at least as much time ignoring the questions and spouting standard talking points as Biden.

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,23:39   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,17:19)
Yes, unless there were mitigating circumstances. If her ex brother-in-law did indeed taser her nephew and did indeed make death threats against her father, then I'd give her a pass on that one. In that case, I'd do the same.

Interesting evasion of the ethical point.

I don't see what her brother-in-law is accused of doing has to do with it.

Do you always have such contempt for due process, Dave?

It seems to me that even if he was a child molester, a governor has no business pushing others to fire a state trooper.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2008,23:46   

If that's all there was to it, I expect her lawyers wouldn't be arguing that releasing the report would cause "Irreparable harm" to her and other alaskans.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,00:32   

I have to say I'm kind of interested in how negative McCain's 100% negative strategy is going to get. I've heard the normal negative stuff. "Obama loves terrorists" "Obama was born in Indonesia" "Obama is a Black Power Radical" etc. I want some new kooky stuff like I see on the fringiest blogs, like "Obama dealt drugs from Pakistan". Part of me kinda wants the McCain campaign to go hog-wild, just for the entertainment value. Go crazy, you know? Call him a pedophile. Accuse him of hot-wiring a Buick in the parking lot after the first debate.

Edited by stevestory on Oct. 05 2008,01:34

   
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,00:42   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Oct. 04 2008,16:25)
 
Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 04 2008,13:39)
...keeping yourself "Smoking hot in a 'naughty librarian' sort of way" ...

There's nothing "librarian" or "smoking" about ignorance or illiteracy.

Agreed.

Just want to clarify that is not my opinion. I don't find unplumbed depth-of-dumb wrapped in a pretty skin very attractive.

That line is directly from a side-by-side comparison of Palin and Obama at one of FTK's links. I'm guessing it's one of the ways FTK believes Palin outshines Obama in experience and achievement.

I hope there is a God...then maybe he will help us.

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,00:57   

I don't think she's necessarily dumb, I think she's completely out of her element. If you threw me in scrubs and gave me a scalpel and told me to bisect the vena cava and perform a Smith retraction on the Floogy valve, I'd stumble as badly as Palin trying to answer questions about the constitution. Usually when politicians seek national office they've spent years preparing themselves on questions of national policy. Talking to think-tankers, reading books about The Great Society, etc. It takes time to become familiar with the hundreds of topics pertinent to those positions, and then you have to practice how to sound knowledgeable without sounding too knowledgeable, else some moron comes along and calls you an elitist with too much Book Larnin. So it takes a lot of preparation and practice to perform effectively at the national level, and Palin just doesn't have that.

   
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,01:18   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 04 2008,23:57)
I don't think she's necessarily dumb, I think she's completely out of her element.

Yeah...I was a bit uncharitable by using the "d" word. I'll take it back.

Even so, Palin displays a dearth of general knowledge and real-time thinking skills I would expect any semi-intelligent person to possess independent of specific topics. After 44 years, I'm not convinced years of preparing, reading books, and talking to think-tankers will change that for her.

She's not just in over her head – she doesn't know how to swim and shouldn't be near the pool.

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,01:49   

There's only 30 days left. Not enough time. So McCain has really one shot at winning: racism. Not overt, but indirect.  What the psychologists call Aversive Racism. He's already shot whatever integrity and honesty he may once have had, so why not?

If I were suddenly put in charge of the campaign I'd*:

Get an agent provocateur to plant weed on his tour bus. Accuse Obama of getting high. Pay some derelicts to claim they used to shoot heroin with Barack back in '03. Find an Obama impersonator and put him on commercials saying he can't wait to personally go get some reparations out of the M***** F****** treasury. Show him shootin' craps against the wall of a liquor store, then trying to pick up some teenage white girls. Print up a million Black Power signs with Obama's face on them and plaster them all over buildings in rural places in Michigan, Ohio, North Carolina. Sneak into a big Obama rally and start throwing things at cops. 3 days before the election buy $10 million of commercials showing slender black guys pushing old ladies, wearing saggy pants, smoking weed, talking shit to cops, acting thuggish.

(Actually I would turn the position down. I have ethics. But the people who run successful presidential campaigns often don't, and it works. For further reading see: Year 2000, South Carolina GOP Primary, "McCain's black baby")

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,02:09   

I don't think much about White Privilege--few white people do--but try to imagine the treatment Barack would get with Palin's credentials:

1) bad public speaking
2) 5 universities in 6 years
3) *ongoing* ethics investigation
4) unmarried pregnant 17 yro daughter
5) spouse who belonged to a separatist organization

I know cute white girls get special treatment that black men don't, but look at that list. That's one hell of a double standard.

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,05:09   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 05 2008,01:49)
There's only 30 days left. Not enough time. So McCain has really one shot at winning: racism. Not overt, but indirect.  What the psychologists call Aversive Racism. He's already shot whatever integrity and honesty he may once have had, so why not?

They apperantly have another trick up there sleeve, namely Obama's connection to William Ayers wich Palin now brought up. How rediculous, at the time of the bombings Obama was just out of the shitting-his-own-pants phase! Ayers is a university professor now, they met a few times because they, and I quote CNN, " both worked with a non-profit group trying to raise funds for a school improvement project and a charitable foundation." I already saw some true hardcore/crazy Republicans coming with this, I never imagined that the campaign would go this low. Although...we're talking about Palin here ;) I think McCain is starting to think twice about this choice, or at least he should.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,05:22   

Quote (JAM @ Oct. 04 2008,23:39)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 03 2008,17:19)
Yes, unless there were mitigating circumstances. If her ex brother-in-law did indeed taser her nephew and did indeed make death threats against her father, then I'd give her a pass on that one. In that case, I'd do the same.

Interesting evasion of the ethical point.

I don't see what her brother-in-law is accused of doing has to do with it.

Do you always have such contempt for due process, Dave?

It seems to me that even if he was a child molester, a governor has no business pushing others to fire a state trooper.

You are confusing the question--which was what I would think about it. Of course if she broke the law she will have to face the consequences. But if (and I don't know this for a fact) it turns out the brother-in-law is indeed a scumbag who tasered the nephew and made death threats, then I wouldn't hold it against her.

In the same way, if someone threatened Obama's family and then Obama beat the crap out of the bastard, I'd say: "nicely done."

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
simmi



Posts: 38
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,06:50   

dheddle:

Quote
In the same way, if someone threatened Obama's family and then Obama beat the crap out of the bastard, I'd say: "nicely done."


I think a better analogy to the Palin situation would be if one of Obama's law students threatened his family and then Obama failed him/her (or tried to kick them out of law school).  How would you feel about that?

I think you're allowing someone to take political/professional retribution against someone who has personally wronged them (or at least giving them a pass).  In my opinion, it is the mixing of the personal with the political that should carry greater weight, especially when the person under examination is seeking political power.

I don't know how far you would go with this, but it sounds like you're willing to give a pass to "eye for an eye" morality.  What about "turn the other cheek"?  (Or at least "render unto Caesar"?)

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,10:16   

Palin and the Experience Factor

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
PTET



Posts: 133
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,11:54   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 05 2008,10:16)
Palin and the Experience Factor

Oh for heaven's sake - Sarah Palin has never heard of Hamas.

I'd always considered "American Thinker" to be one of the stupidest and most hilariously named websites of all time. FTK's link confirms that nicely.

--------------
"It’s not worth the effort to prove the obvious. Ridiculous ideas don’t deserve our time.
Even the attempt to formulate ID is a generous accommodation." - ScottAndrews

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,12:00   

Quote (simmi @ Oct. 05 2008,06:50)
dheddle:

   
Quote
In the same way, if someone threatened Obama's family and then Obama beat the crap out of the bastard, I'd say: "nicely done."


I think a better analogy to the Palin situation would be if one of Obama's law students threatened his family and then Obama failed him/her (or tried to kick them out of law school).  How would you feel about that?

I think you're allowing someone to take political/professional retribution against someone who has personally wronged them (or at least giving them a pass).  In my opinion, it is the mixing of the personal with the political that should carry greater weight, especially when the person under examination is seeking political power.

I don't know how far you would go with this, but it sounds like you're willing to give a pass to "eye for an eye" morality.  What about "turn the other cheek"?  (Or at least "render unto Caesar"?)

Again, we are talking about me. I give her a pass under those circumstances. Whether or not God does is up to Him.

And if Obama got a student who threatened his family kicked out of school, I'd say "rock on."

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,12:08   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 05 2008,10:16)
Palin and the Experience Factor

Wow.  That's a brutal piece of reasoning.  Did you bother to think about the points raised in that piece and ponder their import, Ftk?  Of course you didn't; you haven't thought about anything in years.  You like to have other people do that for you, that way you can spend your time shooting ducks.

Let's see:

from your link, emphasis in original:
Quote
Sarah Palin is the only one with any of the requisite executive experience required for office. She is the sole candidate who has ever run anything larger than a college debating society.


He doesn't mention what any of the requirements might be here, nor does he get around to mentioning what they might be.  He tries to go point by point and refute objections to her experience--very reactionary.  If she was qualified, you would think it would be easy to say "look at the things she does well, instead of merely saying she doesn't do these other things poorly.

Maybe you can tell us, Ftk, what any of the "any" are?

Quote
A major peculiarity of this election is that three of the candidates are senators. Only two senators have been elected president in this century: Warren G. Harding and John F. Kennedy.  (Johnson, Bush, Sr., and Truman all served as VPs before entering the Oval Office.)  


Immaterial, we're going to get a Senator for a President no matter what.  He also destroys his own argument with the last part here.  The examples he gives were Senators who became VPs; isn't that what he's trying to argue against?

Quote
The value of having been a governor is obvious, the progression from there to the presidency apparent.


Well, what is it?  If his point is--and it seems to be the only point he makes in the whole piece--that running something "bigger than your own office" makes you a great Presidential Candidate, I wonder why Perot didn't win....  Perot even had a general as a VP candidate, something that Mr. Dunn praised Eisenhower for being.  The Perot ticket should have been a slam dunk.

Quote
The governor of the smallest state or territory in the union easily trumps them on that score. Often, that's all that's necessary. After his Three Stooges first term, the only edge that Bill Clinton had on Robert Dole was his gubernatorial experience. That was enough.


All that's necessary?  So Mr. Dunn's sole requirement for running the United States of America is that you have presided over an organization?  He apparently didn't like Clinton, so he destroys his own argument yet again.

Quote
The differences between running a town, a state, and a country are matters of degree, not of essence. The same skills and abilities are required in each case. An individual who has learned to run one is not likely to be overwhelmed on taking the next step up.


Really?  Run an army as the Mayor of Wassila?  Negotiate treaties with hostile armed forces as the Governor of Alaska?  Run an intelligence gathering service out of Juneau?  Not to mention that this completely ignores the issue of having knowledge about these new things.

That's like saying a high school football player can play in the NFL without being overwhelmed--it's merely a matter of degree.

Quote
The governor of such a state will have met and overcome challenges quite unfamiliar to continental U.S. governors, Washington senators, and East Coast pundits. This certainly has to be taken into consideration.


I'm sorry.  I'm not sure how having to take a plane to another town necessarily makes you qualified to do anything in particular.  By those standards, I'd make a great President as I've spent months on my own flying around the bush of Alaska (something that I doubt Palin herself has done--maybe I should be on the ticket).

Quote
The last point involves the question of success. Wasilla, the town of which Palin served as mayor, increased its population by 2,000 -- nearly a full third -- under her stewardship. Not bad for a hockey mom.


Now he's just making stuff up.  Not the population increase, but that this is an accomplishment.  I suppose it might qualify if we want the population of the US to be 400 million in 4 years.  That might not be the best idea....

And on Palin's foreign policy experience?
Quote
...except for the easily demonstrated fact that Governor Palin, on August 27th of this year, completed a pipeline agreement with Canada, which is a foreign country. The agreement had been stymied for over two decades by various interests in Alaskan state government. Palin got it wrapped up in that busy eighteen months.


I've worked in Canada as a US citizen, I had to negotiate a guest artist contract to work in a foreign country.  Yikes.  Seriously?

For some place called the American Thinker, there isn't a lot of thinking going on.

Now, ftk, please paste another link.  Or, ideally, you could discuss my objections in your own words, providing links to support your points....  No?  You don't have any points?  Too bad.  Maybe you ask your kids; they probably have some opinions.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,12:55   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 05 2008,01:49)
"McCain's black baby"

Obama's fathered two black babies!!!

  
simmi



Posts: 38
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,13:38   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 05 2008,13:00)
Quote (simmi @ Oct. 05 2008,06:50)
dheddle:

   
Quote
In the same way, if someone threatened Obama's family and then Obama beat the crap out of the bastard, I'd say: "nicely done."


I think a better analogy to the Palin situation would be if one of Obama's law students threatened his family and then Obama failed him/her (or tried to kick them out of law school).  How would you feel about that?

I think you're allowing someone to take political/professional retribution against someone who has personally wronged them (or at least giving them a pass).  In my opinion, it is the mixing of the personal with the political that should carry greater weight, especially when the person under examination is seeking political power.

I don't know how far you would go with this, but it sounds like you're willing to give a pass to "eye for an eye" morality.  What about "turn the other cheek"?  (Or at least "render unto Caesar"?)

Again, we are talking about me. I give her a pass under those circumstances. Whether or not God does is up to Him.

And if Obama got a student who threatened his family kicked out of school, I'd say "rock on."

Fair enough.  My take on this, however, is that you would condone using a position of power to prosecute personal vendettas.

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,13:57   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 05 2008,01:49)
(Actually I would turn the position down. I have ethics. But the people who run successful presidential campaigns often don't, and it works. For further reading see: Year 2000, South Carolina GOP Primary, "McCain's black baby")

Speaking of that smear against McCain, one of the people responsible - Tucker Eskew - now works for the McCain/Palin ticket.

Which doesn't say much good about McCain or Palin.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,14:05   

I can see why FTK likes Palin - they're just alike.

The debate was filled with instances where she got asked a question and said "Well, I'd like to talk about something else...." or didn't even bother with that and just said something completely unrelated.

If it wasn't on the script that she seemed to be spending the entire debate looking down reading, she wouldn't say it.

And, of course, she's got a nasty lying streak.

It's getting to the point where its hard to find something Palin says that is actually true. If she said the sky was blue, I'd go out and check.

Didn't support "Bridge to Nowhere" - Oops, she did.
Didn't accept bridge money - Oops. Did.
Had a policy discussion with British Ambassador - Oops - he wasn't there.
Pulled investments out of Sudan - Oops - she opposed that effort.

Yeah, she's got some "executive experience" - and her administration is full of friends from high school rather than qualified people and she's now under ethics investigation and she's barely done anything yet. Real great leadership there.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,14:34   

And now she out stumping that Obama and Ayers were close personal friends and intimating that Obama is chummy with terrorists and has them over for tea.  Not that she says those exact words, but it's hard to believe it's meant in any other way.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,14:59   

Of course, he's not nothing left.

McCain loses on the war, on the economy, and every other issue he can speak about. The polls for the last week or two are shaping up for a major victory for Obama. He's getting desperate and all he can do is dig up old smears that didn't work the first time around.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,15:13   

And, of course, if Palin wants to say that the fact that you were once on the same charity board, but were not close to, someone who went to far in anti-war protests when you were about 6 years old, perhaps she should remember her husband, former member of the AIP - from its founder:

Quote
The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government...and I won't be buried under their damn flag...

I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions.


Then he was killed in a "plastic explosives sale gone bad".

I'll leave the reasons why a secessionist party was buying plastic explosives up to you.

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,15:33   

Quote
I'll leave the reasons why a secessionist party was buying plastic explosives up to you.


Deciding that showing the people a robust and vigorous economy was the surest path to victory, they were anticipating the mad popularity of Mythbusters in their quest for global monetary dominance?

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,16:56   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 05 2008,15:13)
I'll leave the reasons why a secessionist party was buying plastic explosives up to you.

Dealing with herons that attacked their ducks' nest?

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,17:27   

Quote (blipey @ Oct. 05 2008,13:08)
from your link, emphasis in original:  
Quote
Sarah Palin is the only one with any of the requisite executive experience required for office. She is the sole candidate who has ever run anything larger than a college debating society.


He doesn't mention what any of the requirements might be here, nor does he get around to mentioning what they might be.  He tries to go point by point and refute objections to her experience--very reactionary.  If she was qualified, you would think it would be easy to say "look at the things she does well, instead of merely saying she doesn't do these other things poorly.

It's also wrong. For the last 2 years Barack's run a nationwide organization with thousands of employees which has raised and spent nearly $400 million and achieved dominant market share over first Hillary and now McCain.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,17:50   

Why can't Palin go two days without lying about something? The Sudan divistiture being the latest one.

Nerull: thanks for the info. It doesn't surprise me about Palin's husband belonging to a radical terrorist group. You see that a lot in the rural northwest, like Idaho and Montana.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,17:54   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 05 2008,01:32)
I have to say I'm kind of interested in how negative McCain's 100% negative strategy is going to get. I've heard the normal negative stuff. "Obama loves terrorists" "Obama was born in Indonesia" "Obama is a Black Power Radical" etc. I want some new kooky stuff like I see on the fringiest blogs, like "Obama dealt drugs from Pakistan". Part of me kinda wants the McCain campaign to go hog-wild, just for the entertainment value. Go crazy, you know? Call him a pedophile. Accuse him of hot-wiring a Buick in the parking lot after the first debate.

today, Matt Yglesias:

Quote
Brad DeLong calls our attention to the fact that Bobby May is part of the McCain-Palin Virginia Leadership Team, and Treasurer of the Buchanan County (VA) Republican Party. And also author of a pamphlet claiming that Barack Obama favors “Mandatory Black Liberation Theology classes,” would make Al Sharpton Secretary of State, would “hire rapper Ludacris” to paint the White House black,” wants to increase US development assistance so that unnamed African relatives of Obama’s can “skim off enough to allow them to free their goats,” would make Palestine an American state, and change the national anthem to “‘The Black National Anthem’ by James Weldon Johnson.”


http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/

SWEET. That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.

   
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,18:38   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 05 2008,17:50)
Why can't Palin go two days without lying about something? The Sudan divistiture being the latest one.

Nerull: thanks for the info. It doesn't surprise me about Palin's husband belonging to a radical terrorist group. You see that a lot in the rural northwest, like Idaho and Montana.

This just in Palin is a progressive, says women who don't support her are going to hell!

Albright ain't amused...

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,18:50   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 04 2008,09:13)
OMG, I just listened to the Couric/Biden interview you linked to.  YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FREAKING KIDDING ME.  You think *that* "interview" was comparable to the Couric/Palin interview?  Couric's all smiley and jovial....asking questions with absolutely no substance & NO FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS.  They had a simple conversation about the campaign trail.  

In the Palin interview, Couric looks like an interrogator.  Sheesh...she never smiled...she looked like she was going for the gotcha.  She questions her about real issues regarding her stances on foreign policy, energy, etc., etc.

You're an idiot if you think the two interview are in any way comparable.

Congratulations!  Not only did you take the bait and show us once again how facts, even self-observed ones, fail to penetrate the armor of your opinions, but you ended up with a personal insult. All in all, a classic FtK performance.

Yes, as you correctly observed, Couric's interview with Biden was filled with softball questions. In case you hadn't figured it out before, that's her style. In fact, that is why the McCain campaign agreed to having her interview Palin; they figured she wouldn't ask many hard questions.

So let's analyze the variables in those two debates, and see if we can figure out why Palin came off as an idiot. Was the interviewer the same?  Yep. So we can eliminate that variable. Were the questions at the same degree of difficulty? Yep, another variable eliminated. Were the interviewees the same?  Nope! That might explain the difference. Did Biden answer the questions the first time? Yep; that could be another important variable. Could that explain why there were few, if any, follow-up questions for him? Could it explain why Softball Katie seemed more smiley? Yep, and yep again. Did Palin evade the questions, forcing Softball Katie to ask again and again? Yep. Did Biden speak in sentences that could be understood clearly?  Yep. Did Palin speak in sentences that can't even be diagrammed? Yep again.

So this analysis would seem to indicate that Palin failed to answer questions, and, when gently questioned with the same question again (and again), failed to clarify her initial failure, and failed, in most cases, even more spectacularly. That, and not the whiney excuse of "liberal media bias", could explain the difference that EVEN YOU observed between those debates. Unfortunately, that observation was not allowed to change your analysis of the debate vs. interview dynamic. So here it is, in plain English as well. Please ignore it, per usual.

Palin can't explain herself or her running mate's policies when asked about them in plain English. She evades the questions with glib sentences that she memorizes, but, when pressed for an actual answer, spouts gibberish. It might give you a lot of credibility with the Pentecostals when you speak in tongues, but most Americans expect a bit more from their leaders. Especially after eight years with the language-challenged current occupant, who has demonstrated quite clearly that a command of the language has some relationship to the generation of policies and strategies which pay off for most Americans.

Finally, did you watch that Biden interview on "Meet the Press"? If you did, can you imagine Palin facing that sort of questioning? If she really is going to be the VP under an increasingly senile and frail old man, don't you think she will have to face some tough questions sometime BEFORE she has to face tough adversaries in the global struggles that are surely forthcoming?

When do you predict that she will appear on "Meet the Press" or some other arena where she won't be able to wink and spew sound-bites as if they were answers to questions?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,19:05   

It must be nice to live in a simple, ignorant world, where "What newspapers do you read?" is not a softball question.

I'd imagine its filled with fuzzy bunnies and teletubbuies.

Meanwhile, in the world we call "reality"....

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,19:13   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 05 2008,19:05)
It must be nice to live in a simple, ignorant world, where "What newspapers do you read?" is not a softball question.

I'd imagine its filled with fuzzy bunnies and teletubbuies.

Not that purple one though.  He's teh gay.  And an atheist on a daily basis.  And is friends with terrorists.

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,19:19   

Quote
the questions at the same degree of difficulty? Yep, another variable eliminated.


LOL...hardly.  I don't even know how you can say that without feeling like a dishonest shmuck.

Couric and Biden were shooting the shit on a bus while talking about the road trip and the campaign.  Big whoop...there were no questions of substance at all.

She hit Palin with specific questions about energy, the economy, foreign policy, etc., etc..

I admit, Palin could have done much better, but she's only 5 weeks into the game.  She's newer to the national campaigning scene than McCain/Obama/Biden.  They've had practice for over a year now.  That is a HUGE advantage they hold in these interviews, etc.  I'm tickled pink that she did as well as she did against Biden considering he's already taken a stab at the presidency twice.  He's used to piling on the bull if necessary....goodness knows he made as many errors (if not more) at providing the facts in the vp debate as she did.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,20:11   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 05 2008,19:19)
 
Quote
the questions at the same degree of difficulty? Yep, another variable eliminated.


LOL...hardly.  I don't even know how you can say that without feeling like a dishonest shmuck.

Couric and Biden were shooting the shit on a bus while talking about the road trip and the campaign.  Big whoop...there were no questions of substance at all.

She hit Palin with specific questions about energy, the economy, foreign policy, etc., etc..

I admit, Palin could have done much better, but she's only 5 weeks into the game.  She's newer to the national campaigning scene than McCain/Obama/Biden.  They've had practice for over a year now.  That is a HUGE advantage they hold in these interviews, etc.  I'm tickled pink that she did as well as she did against Biden considering he's already taken a stab at the presidency twice.  He's used to piling on the bull if necessary....goodness knows he made as many errors (if not more) at providing the facts in the vp debate as she did.

Ah, another insult. It's good to be back...

The interview segment shown was very short, but there were some hard questions. For example, she asked him about the ads that were found to be less-than-truthful. He didn't evade them, contra Palin. And she pressed him to clarify that answer; he answered the question with complete and understandable sentences.

I noticed you avoid substantive questions about WHAT she said (which was gibberish) and focus instead on the excuse that she is "new to the scene". Doesn't that clash just a bit with your previous assertion that she is ready to be VP? More critically, if she actually had substantive answers to real questions, why can't she deliver those when she needs to?

I noticed that you also continually avoid the discussion of why Gov. Bush Lite hasn't showed up on shows like "Meet the Press". Why is that?

Oh, and before you yank out that "liberal media" whine, didja notice that Bush Lite herself is not above quoting the liberal media when it suits her purposes? If you can't trust the liberal media, why would you rely on a New York Times story?  

And didja notice that she is being sued by a Republican (horrors!) to release emails that discussed state business but were sent to and from (by her request) her private email account?  Her penchant for conducting government business in secret does make her seem a lot like Dick Cheney, although she probably is a better shot.

At any rate, when and if your new BFF VP candidate ever does appear in a forum with tough questions and tough questioners, I suspect you will be disappointed. But, per usual, that probably won't stop you from cheerleading for this latest creationist nincompoop. Fortunately, most sentient Americans have figured her out already.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,20:31   

Here's another one for ya, FtK.

Couric asking Biden and Palin the SAME QUESTION. Note that Biden answers it, and Palin does not. Note that Palin, per usual, gets some facts wrong.

Which one seems more presidential to you? Gosh darn it, I think I already know that answer!

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2008,20:33   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 05 2008,10:00)
Quote (simmi @ Oct. 05 2008,06:50)
dheddle:

   
Quote
In the same way, if someone threatened Obama's family and then Obama beat the crap out of the bastard, I'd say: "nicely done."


I think a better analogy to the Palin situation would be if one of Obama's law students threatened his family and then Obama failed him/her (or tried to kick them out of law school).  How would you feel about that?

I think you're allowing someone to take political/professional retribution against someone who has personally wronged them (or at least giving them a pass).  In my opinion, it is the mixing of the personal with the political that should carry greater weight, especially when the person under examination is seeking political power.

I don't know how far you would go with this, but it sounds like you're willing to give a pass to "eye for an eye" morality.  What about "turn the other cheek"?  (Or at least "render unto Caesar"?)

Again, we are talking about me. I give her a pass under those circumstances. Whether or not God does is up to Him.

And if Obama got a student who threatened his family kicked out of school, I'd say "rock on."

The corruption investigation of Palin stems from her firing the head of the Alaska State Troopers because he refused to fire her Ex-brother-in-law without an investigation.

Like Cheney, she has refused to obey the law and claimed "executive privledge." (Of course Darth Cheney next claimed he was not part of the executive branch).

I predict she will lose her job in Alaska in late November- just after she looses the VP election.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,10:09   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Oct. 05 2008,20:33)
I predict she will lose her job in Alaska in late November- just after she looses the VP election.

DING!  DING!  DING!

We have a winner!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,10:40   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 05 2008,20:31)
Here's another one for ya, FtK.

Couric asking Biden and Palin the SAME QUESTION. Note that Biden answers it, and Palin does not. Note that Palin, per usual, gets some facts wrong.

Which one seems more presidential to you? Gosh darn it, I think I already know that answer!

Too bad that Ftk will completely ignore this comment.  That's the best juxtaposition of the two candidates you could ever ask for.  Though in fairness, Harry Whittington probably thinks it's the worst thing that Cheney's ever done as well.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Mike in Ontario, NY



Posts: 4
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,10:45   

God prefers Atheists anyway!

Rehabilitating Mr. Wiggles on Atheists

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Mike in Ontario, NY

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,11:03   

via Andrew Sullivan:

Quote
"If you are going to end visits to the state by McCain/ Palin, do it. Just don't formally announce that you are 'pulling out' of Michigan, and then come back two days later asking the base core of support to 'keep working.'  What a slap in the face to all the thousands of people who have been energized by the addition of Sarah Palin to the ticket. I've been involved in County Party politics and organization for 40 years, and this is the biggest dumbass stunt I have ever seen...

He has given up on our State? What a total and complete crock of crap. Again, I think McCain owes the Republicans and the People of Michigan a HUGE APOLOGY. SOON!" - Jack Waldvogel, Chairman of the Emmet County GOP.


Are you sure it's the biggest? Bigger than 'suspending' his campaign? Bigger than picking Palin? Bigger than whatever big dumbass stunt he's going to pull next week? Earth to Jack: McCain is a reckless gambler.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,11:14   

If McCain's going to try to guilt-by-association Obama, Obama's gonna put a hurtin' on him. McCain's got way more criminal associates. And as Ben Smith says, the Keating scandal wasn't guilt-by-association. It was guilt-by-guilt.

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,12:03   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 06 2008,11:14)
If McCain's going to try to guilt-by-association Obama, Obama's gonna put a hurtin' on him. McCain's got way more criminal associates. And as Ben Smith says, the Keating scandal wasn't guilt-by-association. It was guilt-by-guilt.

No way, McCain will "win" the negative war hands down. On one side the friggin' boring Keating 5, a witch doctor, and trooper-gate. On the other, you have Ayers, Rezko, Wright, Kinnock and resume padding. If McCain wants to go totally negative, nothing will trump repeated playings of Wright's GD-ing America.

I am not advocating this, not by any stretch--and I have no idea if it will be effective or not. It's just an observation. If the campaigns go totally negative, if they havn't already, McCain has more fodder.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,12:59   

Which is why Hillary Clinton is the democratic nominee for POTUS.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,13:38   

It's sad to watch Heddle audition for his spot at UD.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,13:51   



Linky

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,13:54   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 06 2008,13:38)
It's sad to watch Heddle audition for his spot at UD.

That doesn't make any sense. I'm merely stating the facts. If you imagine a campaign gone hog-wild negative, the 800 pound gorilla will be Wright's GD-ing of America. That's not advocating that the campaign go in that direction--I hope they don't. I find the TV ads repulsive enough as they are. It's merely stating the obvious. Put differently, I suspect the Obama campaign is more leary of a highly negative campaign than McCain--and not just because they are winning. It doesn't take Fellini to figure out that a Wright ad is potentially more effective than Keating 5 ad with the undecided Reagan democrats.

What is sad is to see you, of all people, respond with a dumb, meaningless, irrational comment. You can go to hell.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,14:00   

Yeah, Steve, go to hell.  IMHO, *everything* you write is *stoopid*.  You're a one line wonder.


[I deeply apologize for supporting you here, Heddle.  I know you think I'm a pain in the ass like everyone else does, and I'm certainly the last one you want in your corner, but I can't help it.  Most of the crap Steve writes makes me want to puke...he's so full of it.]

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,14:02   

WOW. No wonder the McCain camp doesn't want to talk about the issues. Course, by making it personal, they just invite charges of McCain's corruption, his censure by the senate, his wife's criminal behavior, her dad's criminal behavior and organized crime ties, his running mate's attempt to coverup the facts about the trooper, etc.

(Now Dave, play nice. I tried to make a joke out of it. What I actually think would be unsuitable for the board.)

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,15:15   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 06 2008,13:54)
It doesn't take Fellini to figure out that a Wright ad is potentially more effective than Keating 5 ad with the undecided Reagan democrats.

These Reagan Democrats?

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,16:04   

The beginning of the end for McCain?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,16:21   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 06 2008,14:04)
The beginning of the end for McCain?

The beginning of the end was a while ago - perhaps, in hindsight, the Palin pick.  This is the middle of the end.

The end of the end is when McCain appoints DaveTard as senior campaign co-ordinator, and the "Obama eats cuddly puppy dogs" ads flood the airwaves in swing states.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,17:59   

O hell I was just watching CNN, and those little parts of the VP came by showing Palin blinking while talking. I wonder if it's a twitch (I'm f*cked I'm f*cked I'm f*cked!!!) or some kind of....tactic (they will like me if I flirt!). Whatever it is, it's friggin' disturbing. And I though Hillary was scary.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,19:24   

The Intraders right now are giving Obama 353 electoral votes to McCain's 185. Being overly cautious, I'm inclined to call it 311 to 227, putting North Carolina's and Florida's 42 votes in the GOP column. Why? Because I lived in 5 cities in those 2 states, over 30 years, and I've seen the racism of rural southern whites, and it's a potent force.

McCain's announcement Sunday that they'd pay for their upper-class tax cuts by cutting medicare & medicaid by 20% should be the last nail in his coffin, especially in Florida, but I suppose there's an outside chance that the fear-mongering scares enough people.

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,19:27   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 06 2008,19:24)
McCain's announcement Sunday that they'd pay for their upper-class tax cuts by cutting medicare & medicaid by 20% should be the last nail in his coffin, especially in Florida, but I suppose there's an outside chance that the fear-mongering scares enough people.

Don't underestimate what McCain will do to keep the grayheads on board.

Linky

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,19:32   

Time's Jay Carney:
Quote
There may be froth in some of these poll numbers, but it appears neither Sarah Palin's debate performance nor the passage of the financial bailout bill has slowed, let alone reversed, the pro-Obama, anti-GOP trend that's been gathering momentum for two and half weeks. Which means McCain will feel enormous pressure tomorrow night to produce a game-changing moment, lest the trend become irreversible and Republicans start ruminating openly about how to rebuild from the ashes of an apocalyptic defeat.


SWEET. I'm all about a pressurized McCain trying to produce a game changing moment on demand. Especially after the last couple of Hail Marys. He's like a football coach who only calls trick plays. You know he's going to lose, but you might see something fun and unexpected.

   
The Wayward Hammer



Posts: 64
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,19:44   

The last three weeks for McCain / Palin has got this swing voter heading for Obama now.  The Palin Couric interview was simply a disaster.  She was incoherent at times - the SNL parody was almost too close to be funny.  Complaining that the interview was somehow "biased" simply ignores the low quality of her answers.  

But what has me angry now is the Roveian tactics.  The weekend "He associates with terrorists" comments are simply pitiful.

I liked McCain for his independence and I thought Palin was a high-upside choice.  But like a fine baseball prospect, she's got some holes in her swing.  It works in the minors, but the big league guys make you look bad.

McCain disappoints me.  But, I live in Texas so it's not like my vote counts.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,20:32   

Quote (The Wayward Hammer @ Oct. 06 2008,19:44)
McCain disappoints me.  But, I live in Texas so it's not like my vote counts.

No, it's Kansas where your vote never counts...

But according to this map, Texas might be in play!

Psst! Don't tell FtK. She thinks Palin is gonna make a great president, and Walt Brown will be the next presidential science advisor...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,20:37   

I thought you've "changed your ways"....so I take your last comment, in your twisted world, would not be considered an insult.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,20:44   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 06 2008,20:37)
I thought you've "changed your ways"....so I take your last comment, in your twisted world, would not be considered an insult.

What part of that comment is insulting?  Did I call you a name?  Did I cast aspersions on your teaching abilities?  Did I say anything but the truth (you are on record re Palin and her presidential potential), and extrapolation from that truth (you do seem to regard Walt as a guru on all things scientific)? Are you humor-challenged; do I need to use asterisks and footnotes like Louis so that everyone understands the joke????

Inquiring minds would definitely like to know what, exactly, about my comment comes across as "insult"? My world is not so "twisted" that I can't recognize "twisted" as an insult, but you'll have to explain your world to me...

Thanks

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,20:46   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 06 2008,20:44)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 06 2008,20:37)
I thought you've "changed your ways"....so I take your last comment, in your twisted world, would not be considered an insult.

What part of that comment is insulting?  Did I call you a name?  Did I cast aspersions on your teaching abilities?  Did I say anything but the truth (you are on record re Palin and her presidential potential), and extrapolation from that truth (you do seem to regard Walt as a guru on all things scientific)? Are you humor-challenged; do I need to use asterisks and footnotes like Louis so that everyone understands the joke????

Inquiring minds would definitely like to know what, exactly, about my comment comes across as "insult"? My world is not so "twisted" that I can't recognize "twisted" as an insult, but you'll have to explain your world to me...

Thanks

Ah, I see, so the answer is that in your own twisted little world that wouldn't be considered an insult.

Thanks for the clarification.  Carry on jack ass*.

*humor.  srsly.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,21:10   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 06 2008,20:46)
Ah, I see, so the answer is that in your own twisted little world that wouldn't be considered an insult.

Thanks for the clarification.  Carry on jack ass*.

*humor.  srsly.

FtK

If you can't explain yourself when someone asks (politely), you really should get into another line of work. Blogging should be an exercise in allowing others to see what and how you are thinking.

I don't understand your perception that my comment was insulting. I'm asking you to explain it. Can you do that?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,21:33   

Excellent.  Ftk, I take it that I can put you down for thinking that Palin is a terrible VP candidate?  Otherwise, I think you'll have to let Albatrossity's comment stand.

In case you're having trouble sounding out the two and three syllable words, his statement was:

Ftk thinks Palin will make a great President

Your recent comments, I assume, mean that this is in fact not true.  You'll be posting this on your blog right after you tell everyone you're pro-choice?

The Walt Brown crack is a little less straight forward.  AFAIK, you are not on record saying that Brown will or should be the Presidential Science Adviser.

However, it is my understanding from your comments that you think he is qualified.  Is that true?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,21:41   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:10)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 06 2008,20:46)
Ah, I see, so the answer is that in your own twisted little world that wouldn't be considered an insult.

Thanks for the clarification.  Carry on jack ass*.

*humor.  srsly.

FtK

If you can't explain yourself when someone asks (politely), you really should get into another line of work. Blogging should be an exercise in allowing others to see what and how you are thinking.

I don't understand your perception that my comment was insulting. I'm asking you to explain it. Can you do that?

ROTFL....you've gotta be fucking kidding me.  I can't imagine that you'd make a comment like that if I were a student in your class and you were familiar with my thoughts on politics and science.

Get real, dumb ass.*

*Again, just in jest...

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,21:47   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 06 2008,21:41)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:10)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 06 2008,20:46)
Ah, I see, so the answer is that in your own twisted little world that wouldn't be considered an insult.

Thanks for the clarification.  Carry on jack ass*.

*humor.  srsly.

FtK

If you can't explain yourself when someone asks (politely), you really should get into another line of work. Blogging should be an exercise in allowing others to see what and how you are thinking.

I don't understand your perception that my comment was insulting. I'm asking you to explain it. Can you do that?

ROTFL....you've gotta be fucking kidding me.  I can't imagine that you'd make a comment like that if I were a student in your class and you were familiar with my thoughts on politics and science.

Get real, dumb ass.*

*Again, just in jest...

So....  No, you can't explain how it's insulting.  Nicely done.

ETA: Don't your kids read the #*(@ing inteernetz!

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,03:05   

It really doesn't matter any more: Human evolution is over.

Shame really. I was really keen on the grand-kids getting invisible wings.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,03:06   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 07 2008,02:44)
[SNIP]

Are you humor-challenged; do I need to use asterisks and footnotes like Louis so that everyone understands the joke????

[SNIP]

Even that doesn't work.

The only problem with Swiftian satire, or even just simple humour, is that not everyone understands that it's satire/humour. To those who do, I apologise for the footnotes, they are unnecessary and patronising. To those who don't, and FTK I am thinking of you particularly here, they are very necessary.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,06:31   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 06 2008,21:41)
ROTFL....you've gotta be fucking kidding me.  I can't imagine that you'd make a comment like that if I were a student in your class and you were familiar with my thoughts on politics and science.

Get real, dumb ass.*

*Again, just in jest...

Ftk

That's not an explanation of why you think it is insulting. It's a poor analogy.

You are not a student in my class. You are allegedly an adult discussing politics on an internet discussion board. So no, I wouldn't say that to a student in my class. Do you want me to treat you like a student in my class?  Do you want me to assign you a grade?

I would say it to an adult, with whom I have had a long history of discussion, in a peer-to-peer discussion forum.

So if you can put aside the assumption that I am always in a classroom, I'd appreciate it if you can explain, in civil terms, why you were insulted by that comment.

Srsly

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,09:11   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 07 2008,06:31)

So if you can put aside the assumption that I am always in a classroom, I'd appreciate it if you can explain, in civil terms, why you were insulted by that comment.

Srsly

Because she can't understand it?

edited to clean formatting again and in hopes of finding more coffee...

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,11:07   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 07 2008,01:06)
The only problem with Swiftian satire, or even just simple humour, is that not everyone understands that it's satire/humour. To those who do, I apologise for the footnotes, they are unnecessary and patronising. To those who don't, and FTK I am thinking of you particularly here, they are very necessary.

Louis

Shouldn't that be "Dickensian satire"?*



* This is satire/humour.**


** I apologise if you found the footnote unnecessary.***


*** Or patronising.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,11:11   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 07 2008,11:07)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 07 2008,01:06)
The only problem with Swiftian satire, or even just simple humour, is that not everyone understands that it's satire/humour. To those who do, I apologise for the footnotes, they are unnecessary and patronising. To those who don't, and FTK I am thinking of you particularly here, they are very necessary.

Louis

Shouldn't that be "Dickensian satire"?*



* This is satire/humour.**


** I apologise if you found the footnote unnecessary.***


*** Or patronising.

****Mynd you, møøse bites Kan be pretty nasti...

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,11:31   

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archive....060.php

Quote
Yesterday, John McCain delivered an unhinged anti-Obama diatribe in New Mexico, and when he posed a rhetorical question -- "Who is the real Barack Obama?" -- someone shouted, "A terrorist!" McCain paused momentarily, but did not comment on the remark.

Also yesterday, Sarah Palin repeated one of her unusually stupid attacks, rehashing the nonsense that Obama "pals around" with terrorists. One man in the audience, responding to Palin's smear, shouted, "Kill him!" Palin also did not comment on the remark.

At the same Florida event, Republicans shouted abuse at journalists, hurling obscenities. The Washington Post reported, "One Palin supporter shouted a racial epithet at an African American sound man for a network and told him, 'Sit down, boy.'"

And just to top things off, last night, the Republican Party of Pennsylvania announced its belief that Obama is "a terrorist's best friend."


Today's GOP--appealing to the better angels of our nature.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,11:42   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 07 2008,11:07)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 07 2008,01:06)
The only problem with Swiftian satire, or even just simple humour, is that not everyone understands that it's satire/humour. To those who do, I apologise for the footnotes, they are unnecessary and patronising. To those who don't, and FTK I am thinking of you particularly here, they are very necessary.

Louis

Shouldn't that be "Dickensian satire"?*



* This is satire/humour.**


** I apologise if you found the footnote unnecessary.***


*** Or patronising.

Evolution means never having to say your sorry*


* Sorry for asterisks specifically.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,12:11   

http://money.cnn.com/quote....mb=DJIA

Dow Jones Industrial Average January 22nd, 2001, the first Monday after GWB became president: 10,578

Dave Jones Industrial Average 10/07/2008, approximately 7.5 years later: 9812.

Percent decline: 7.2
Percent decline adjusted for inflation: 21.

edit: Jan 22, not Jan 1

Edited by stevestory on Oct. 07 2008,13:12

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,12:12   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 07 2008,10:11)
http://money.cnn.com/quote....mb=DJIA

Dow Jones Industrial Average January 22nd, 2001, the first Monday after GWB became president: 10,578

Dave Jones Industrial Average 10/07/2008, approximately 7.5 years later: 9812.

Percent decline: 7.2
Percent decline adjusted for inflation: 21.

edit: Jan 22, not Jan 1

That should, of course, be Dave Dickens Industrial Average.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,12:44   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 07 2008,17:11)
Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 07 2008,11:07)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 07 2008,01:06)
The only problem with Swiftian satire, or even just simple humour, is that not everyone understands that it's satire/humour. To those who do, I apologise for the footnotes, they are unnecessary and patronising. To those who don't, and FTK I am thinking of you particularly here, they are very necessary.

Louis

Shouldn't that be "Dickensian satire"?*



* This is satire/humour.**


** I apologise if you found the footnote unnecessary.***


*** Or patronising.

****Mynd you, møøse bites Kan be pretty nasti...

***** My sister was bitten by a møøse....

Louis

P.S. It was fine John.

--------------
Bye.

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,13:09   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 07 2008,12:31)
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archive....060.php

Quote
Yesterday, John McCain delivered an unhinged anti-Obama diatribe in New Mexico, and when he posed a rhetorical question -- "Who is the real Barack Obama?" -- someone shouted, "A terrorist!" McCain paused momentarily, but did not comment on the remark.

Also yesterday, Sarah Palin repeated one of her unusually stupid attacks, rehashing the nonsense that Obama "pals around" with terrorists. One man in the audience, responding to Palin's smear, shouted, "Kill him!" Palin also did not comment on the remark.

At the same Florida event, Republicans shouted abuse at journalists, hurling obscenities. The Washington Post reported, "One Palin supporter shouted a racial epithet at an African American sound man for a network and told him, 'Sit down, boy.'"

And just to top things off, last night, the Republican Party of Pennsylvania announced its belief that Obama is "a terrorist's best friend."


Today's GOP--appealing to the better angels of our nature.

They're creating a monster. Their only remaining option is to bring out the white hoods and burning crosses. The question is, will it get out of control? The mob never tends to give much heed to its authorities once set off.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Ra-Úl



Posts: 93
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,13:30   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 07 2008,11:07)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 07 2008,01:06)
The only problem with Swiftian satire, or even just simple humour, is that not everyone understands that it's satire/humour. To those who do, I apologise for the footnotes, they are unnecessary and patronising. To those who don't, and FTK I am thinking of you particularly here, they are very necessary.

Louis

Shouldn't that be "Dickensian satire"?*



* This is satire/humour.**


** I apologise if you found the footnote unnecessary.***


*** Or patronising.

This whole footnote fest reminds me of what a friend said when he heard David Foster Wallace had died:
"Oh, did he leave a footnote."

--------------
Beauty is that which makes us desperate. - P Valery

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,14:39   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 06 2008,13:51)


Linky

New one!



Link

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Ra-Úl



Posts: 93
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,14:44   

I think the wrinkly pale Repug does not correspond to a classical instrument. Maybe a cheap knock-off Malaysian copy of a bad American knock-off of a low-end Martin, but not a classical guitar. Sheesh.

--------------
Beauty is that which makes us desperate. - P Valery

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,14:46   

those are pretty good. I like the sword one too.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,16:30   

taking into account the margins of error in the state-by-state polls:



http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/todays-polls-106.html

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,16:33   

LOL!

Bill Maher on Palin:

Quote

"The big headline today is that she 'exceeded expectations,' which is like saying Andy Dick only drank half a bottle of Woolite." --Bill Maher


http://www.othercrap.com/

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,17:47   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 07 2008,14:09)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 07 2008,12:31)
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archive....060.php

 
Quote
Yesterday, John McCain delivered an unhinged anti-Obama diatribe in New Mexico, and when he posed a rhetorical question -- "Who is the real Barack Obama?" -- someone shouted, "A terrorist!" McCain paused momentarily, but did not comment on the remark.

Also yesterday, Sarah Palin repeated one of her unusually stupid attacks, rehashing the nonsense that Obama "pals around" with terrorists. One man in the audience, responding to Palin's smear, shouted, "Kill him!" Palin also did not comment on the remark.

At the same Florida event, Republicans shouted abuse at journalists, hurling obscenities. The Washington Post reported, "One Palin supporter shouted a racial epithet at an African American sound man for a network and told him, 'Sit down, boy.'"

And just to top things off, last night, the Republican Party of Pennsylvania announced its belief that Obama is "a terrorist's best friend."


Today's GOP--appealing to the better angels of our nature.

They're creating a monster. Their only remaining option is to bring out the white hoods and burning crosses. The question is, will it get out of control? The mob never tends to give much heed to its authorities once set off.

I have this image of RNC meetings chanting "N-word".

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,19:28   

While you ponder the financial calamity we're in, you might be interested to know that prior to George W Bush, the last time Republicans had control of the White House, Congress, and the Senate for 6 consecutive years was 1923 to 1929, the 6 years immediately prior to the stock market crash and the Great Depression.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....ongress

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,19:47   

'Our Long National Nightmare Of Peace And Prosperity Is Finally Over'

Oh, boy, satire that's uncomfortably prescient.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,20:58   

Earth to stevestory:  Raleigh is a yankee colony.  Don't know about the others you have lived in.  Also, Florida is a suburb of New Jersey, except for the northern part and the pan handle, which are actually part of Alabama.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,21:01   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 07 2008,03:06)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 07 2008,02:44)
[SNIP]

Are you humor-challenged; do I need to use asterisks and footnotes like Louis so that everyone understands the joke????

[SNIP]

Even that doesn't work.

The only problem with Swiftian satire, or even just simple humour, is that not everyone understands that it's satire/humour. To those who do, I apologise for the footnotes, they are unnecessary and patronising. To those who don't, and FTK I am thinking of you particularly here, they are very necessary.

Louis

honey i think those little old footnote ass trisk thingies are real cute.  you just keep on-a gettin' them sugar, I do it too now.  thanks mmmmmmwwwah

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,21:04   

Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 07 2008,11:42)
Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 07 2008,11:07)
 
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 07 2008,01:06)
The only problem with Swiftian satire, or even just simple humour, is that not everyone understands that it's satire/humour. To those who do, I apologise for the footnotes, they are unnecessary and patronising. To those who don't, and FTK I am thinking of you particularly here, they are very necessary.

Louis

Shouldn't that be "Dickensian satire"?*



* This is satire/humour.**


** I apologise if you found the footnote unnecessary.***


*** Or patronising.

Evolution means never having to say your sorry*


* Sorry for asterisks specifically.

Actually, my neanderthal friend, it is a baculum that means never having to say I'm sorry.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,21:41   

The overhead projector annoyance

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,22:06   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 07 2008,21:58)
Earth to stevestory:  Raleigh is a yankee colony.  Don't know about the others you have lived in.  Also, Florida is a suburb of New Jersey, except for the northern part and the pan handle, which are actually part of Alabama.

Raleigh was somewhat Yankee, though not nearly as much as Cary. And it depends on where in Raleigh you live, North Raleigh, East Raleigh, and around NCSU are three very different places. And Durham is certainly different. And so is Chapel Hill. You're partially right about Florida, but Florida is at least 3 states, maybe 4. The one I live in is the Alabama part, which is one of the more redneck places in the world. I don't know if even Alabama is more redneck, and I've spent a while in Opelika. Even Neal Stephenson referred to the "distinguished trailer parks of North Florida." Though the missus lives between Orlando and Tampa, which is utterly different.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,22:08   

(For those of you who don't know about North Florida, and think Florida is just old jews and cubans, the diner I was in two days ago had no fewer than 4 patrons wearing confederate flag t-shirts.)

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,22:12   

I was disappointed in the debate. I wanted McCain to throw a big crazy hail mary, and he didn't. He was actually pretty reasonable the whole time and mostly talked about the issues. I know that makes me look like a bad person but I don't care I'm being honest.

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,22:14   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 07 2008,22:08)
(For those of you who don't know about North Florida, and think Florida is just old jews and cubans, the diner I was in two days ago had no fewer than 4 patrons wearing confederate flag t-shirts.)

And probably work on horse ranches.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,22:49   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 07 2008,22:12)
I was disappointed in the debate. I wanted McCain to throw a big crazy hail mary, and he didn't. He was actually pretty reasonable the whole time and mostly talked about the issues. I know that makes me look like a bad person but I don't care I'm being honest.

I was also disappointed.  I'm not sure there was a lot of question answering going on, but there was some.  I thought the best answer of the whole night was Obama's health care response.  McCain was reasonable (fairly), said a lot of crap about Obama (who returned the favor) instead of answering questions (ditto), and kept on the talking points instead of introducing details (which Obama did too).

Disappointing, on the whole.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,23:03   

almost exactly 4 weeks to the election. Intrade's back up to 72/28 Obama/McCain. The insta-polls after the debate say Obama won by a few.

I wonder if McCain's behavior means anything about the next 4 weeks. Did he strike a more substantive tone because he realizes that nobody's buying the ridiculous attacks of the last few weeks (well, almost nobody)? Or was the town hall format just a bad forum for negativity? I don't know.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,23:11   

I just got around to listening to the podcast of This Week from two days ago. Somebody on the roundtable remarks about Obama's cool, presidential demeanor, and George Will says something along the lines of "Well, he's a black man. If he acted half as angry as McCain he'd be called a 'militant'."

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,23:45   

good thing we didn't play a drinking game. Some of the expected take-a-shot moments weren't there (Ayers, Wright) but if I'd had to take a shot every time McCain said "my friends", my liver would be filing for divorce on the grounds of Depraved Indifference.

   
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,04:50   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 07 2008,21:45)
if I'd had to take a shot every time McCain said "my friends", my liver would be filing for divorce on the grounds of Depraved Indifference.

How long has McCain suffered from this verbal tic?  Any Arizonans out there who can tell us whether he was doing it during his early House and Senate campaigns?

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,07:38   



--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,08:56   

Quote (keiths @ Oct. 08 2008,05:50)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 07 2008,21:45)
if I'd had to take a shot every time McCain said "my friends", my liver would be filing for divorce on the grounds of Depraved Indifference.

How long has McCain suffered from this verbal tic?  Any Arizonans out there who can tell us whether he was doing it during his early House and Senate campaigns?

Part of this insta-poll stuff all the networks are doing now shows live viewer reactions to things said in the debate. McCain's numbers take a noticeable dive every time he says "My friends".

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,08:58   

McCain didn't go off the deep end during the debate. He managed to put in a pretty average performance.

The problem, though, is he needed a spectacular performance. Average won't rescue you from losing by double digits, and that's not even taking into consideration the electoral vote map, where McCain is in very dire circumstances indeed.

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,09:16   

I think I was looking for signs that the participants might give of the gravitas one might expect of a president. What I saw was primarily the sort of behavior one expects of politicians.

Of course, I haven't read detailed accounts of the campaigns of some of our early presidents, so maybe the only president who didn't have to act as a politician to get the job might have been Washington.

In any case, McCain is not getting my vote for reasons I've given years back, and Obama looked to be doing OK by comparison. I noticed that the town hall meeting debate did not put the question of torture as official policy on the line, nor the erosion of the rights and liberties of citizens. I would have liked to have heard the reactions to such questions, even if they did not rise to the status of answers.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,09:31   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 08 2008,09:16)
Of course, I haven't read detailed accounts of the campaigns of some of our early presidents, so maybe the only president who didn't have to act as a politician to get the job might have been Washington.

If memory serves, Washington was the glue that held the Union together during the immediate post-Constitution era, so was basically a shoe-in for both the elections of 1789 and 1792.  

The election of 1800 between incumbent John Adams and eventual winner Thomas Jefferson probably sets the standard for outright nastiness.  None of the veiled, wink-wink broadsides we see today for them.

Added in edit: Although, interestingly, alot of the bile was thrown not by the candidates, but by pamphleteers and partisan newspapers.  They could be considered the colonial equivalent of today's 527 organizations.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Spottedwind



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Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,09:34   

Heddle - What is the dog that McCain is equal to?  It looks familiar, but to be honest, I'm not sure what type of dog it is.  Not trying to deconstruct the joke*, just curious about the dog.


* - My personal proclivities aside, I think the guitar and train jokes are funnier because they are clearer and easier to get, IMO.  They also seem a bit more focused on just Palin and, IMO, actually give McCain some respect.  In the guitar at least...he's the acoustic...kind of classic, timeless, and dependable, if less flashy and modern than the others.  The train...well, yeah that's the 'old' thing no matter how you cut it.  But Palin in both cases is just a toy, well out of her league.

** - Yes, I know analyzing a joke is just about the most boring thing possible...and I have no defense for that :)

*** - Because it's what all the cool kids are doing.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,09:40   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Oct. 08 2008,09:34)
Heddle - What is the dog that McCain is equal to?  It looks familiar, but to be honest, I'm not sure what type of dog it is.  Not trying to deconstruct the joke*, just curious about the dog.


* - My personal proclivities aside, I think the guitar and train jokes are funnier because they are clearer and easier to get, IMO.  They also seem a bit more focused on just Palin and, IMO, actually give McCain some respect.  In the guitar at least...he's the acoustic...kind of classic, timeless, and dependable, if less flashy and modern than the others.  The train...well, yeah that's the 'old' thing no matter how you cut it.  But Palin in both cases is just a toy, well out of her league.

** - Yes, I know analyzing a joke is just about the most boring thing possible...and I have no defense for that :)

*** - Because it's what all the cool kids are doing.

For McCain I did a google image search on "old German Shepherds" and that was one of the returns.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,09:59   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 08 2008,10:40)
For McCain I did a google image search on "old German Shepherds" and that was one of the returns.

Thanks...that's what I was thinking but it looked a bit furry to me.

Inconsequential in the grand scheme of things but I was curious.

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,10:08   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 08 2008,07:38)

Governor, I own a pit bull: I sleep next to a pit bull every night; A pit bull is my best-est friend on this planet. Governor, you're no pit bull.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,10:45   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 07 2008,19:41)
The overhead projector annoyance

Has McCain ever given an example of "Gummint pork" which isn't science-related?

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,10:54   

Quote
McCain Advisers Taking Ayers, Wright Off The Table?
By Greg Sargent - October 8, 2008, 9:26AM

As noted here and elsewhere, the words "William Ayers" appeared nowhere in yesterday's debate, despite the fact that the McCain campaign hinted for days that McCain would go hard at Obama's associations.

Now Politico reports that McCain advisers are privately indicating that Ayers, and Obama's pastor, Jeremiah Wright, may be off the table for good:
Quote

After days of attempts to persuade voters that Obama's ties to '60s radical Bill Ayers are a crucial character issue, McCain didn't mention Ayers' name during the 90 minutes of Tuesday's forum. His top aides suggested afterward that, going forward, the candidate wouldn't focus on the former domestic terrorist nor invoke the name of Obama's controversial pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

If it's really true that the McCain team is holstering this pistol, it suggests that the McCain campaign's internal polling on how the Ayers stuff is playing is just brutal, likely among independents. It also suggests that Obama's counter-attack -- lambasting McCain's campaign for wanting to change the subject from the economy to personal attacks -- has been effective.


http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008....s_w.php

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,11:00   

McCain's ad guy is probably breathing a sigh of relief. Imagine his difficulties.

Quote
We know inflation is high, you've just been laid off, nobody's hiring, your 401(k) hasn't budged in the last eight years, and you're underwater on your mortgage...but think about this...Barack Obama served on an education panel with a guy who was a 60's radical 40 years ago...


Kinda hard to make that look intelligent and serious.

Edited by stevestory on Oct. 08 2008,12:01

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,11:03   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 08 2008,10:54)
 
Quote
McCain Advisers Taking Ayers, Wright Off The Table?
By Greg Sargent - October 8, 2008, 9:26AM

As noted here and elsewhere, the words "William Ayers" appeared nowhere in yesterday's debate, despite the fact that the McCain campaign hinted for days that McCain would go hard at Obama's associations.

Now Politico reports that McCain advisers are privately indicating that Ayers, and Obama's pastor, Jeremiah Wright, may be off the table for good:  
Quote

After days of attempts to persuade voters that Obama's ties to '60s radical Bill Ayers are a crucial character issue, McCain didn't mention Ayers' name during the 90 minutes of Tuesday's forum. His top aides suggested afterward that, going forward, the candidate wouldn't focus on the former domestic terrorist nor invoke the name of Obama's controversial pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

If it's really true that the McCain team is holstering this pistol, it suggests that the McCain campaign's internal polling on how the Ayers stuff is playing is just brutal, likely among independents. It also suggests that Obama's counter-attack -- lambasting McCain's campaign for wanting to change the subject from the economy to personal attacks -- has been effective.


http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008....s_w.php

Frankly, McCain's stock would rise in my estimation if he decided to run his campaign as he promised in the primaries, and not as a standard Rove/Atwater rethuglican. If Palin still uses the Ayers and Wright connections as seasoning for her red-meat rallies, however, we'll know that this is all politics as usual.

I do suspect that the issues of past associations of both candidates are not resonating among independents, even if they are big applause items at rallies for the party faithful.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,11:13   

Quote (ERV @ Oct. 08 2008,11:08)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 08 2008,07:38)

Governor, I own a pit bull: I sleep next to a pit bull every night; A pit bull is my best-est friend on this planet. Governor, you're no pit bull.

how many self-respecting pit bulls would whine for a week about being mauled by Katie Couric?

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,11:20   

So, heddle, what do you think of McCain's stance that planetariums are a waste of money?

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,11:37   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 08 2008,11:20)
So, heddle, what do you think of McCain's stance that planetariums are a waste of money?

I believe McCain was referring to a particular planetarium, one that was to be funded by an earmark requested by St. Barack, for a museum merely coincidentally tied, personally, via its chairman, to Obama fundraising--which could never be a problem, because Obama has agreed to public financing of his campaign.

Oh, wait...

But don't ask me about McCain anymore. I don't particularly like McCain. I'm voting for Palin.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,11:42   

So when McCain said we shoudn't fund "silly things like planetariums", he wasn't referring to all of them, like he clearly said?

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,11:56   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 08 2008,11:42)
So when McCain said we shoudn't fund "silly things like planetariums", he wasn't referring to all of them, like he clearly said?

I am referring to the discourse when people started criticizing Palin for earmarks, right after she was announced:

 
Quote

McCain stood up for Palin at other times in the interview.
He was asked about nearly $200 million in congressional pet projects Palin requested for 2009 for her state, despite her boasts that she opposes such projects and his claim that she didn't ask for any. McCain responded by criticizing Obama for seeking more than $900 million in these earmarks, by one count.

"That's nearly a million every day, every working day he's been in Congress," McCain said. "And when you look at some of the planetariums and other foolishness that he asked for, he shouldn't be saying anything about Governor Palin."



That clearly is a criticism of Obama's earmark request, not of planetariums in general.

Do you have a different reference where he was referring to "silly planetariums" generically?

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:09   

well heddle i guess it is that time of the month or astrological zone or whatever.  can't be rational all the time i reckon.  Palin.  pardon me for spitting on the floor.

now, when mccain bitches about spending 3 million on a genetic study of grey wolves, should we take that seriously?  those of us who consider the ESA to be worth taking seriously should not be uneasy when he vows to slash all sorts of federal programs and budgets?

NSF?

USFWS?

USFS?

NPS?

are you shitting me, or are you just pulling the liberal chains?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:11   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 08 2008,11:03)
I do suspect that the issues of past associations of both candidates are not resonating among independents, even if they are big applause items at rallies for the party faithful.

I just had this conversation with my farrier and I told him to show me a politician that hasn't associated with an unsavory character or two during their career and I'll show you a politician that has never won an election.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:16   

from the old bastard's website

Quote
A one-year spending pause. Freeze non-defense, non-veterans discretionary spending for a year and use those savings for deficit reduction. A one-year pause in the growth of discretionary spending will be imposed to allow for a comprehensive review of all spending programs. After the completion of a comprehensive review of all programs, projects and activities of the federal government, we will propose a plan to modernize, streamline, consolidate, reprioritize and, where needed, terminate individual programs.


i say he is bullshittin'.  it can't be serious.  BUT IF HE IS...  what do you think he will do to EPA/USFWS/NPS/USFS?  you probably understand that when their budgets get cut, their work load doesn't.  That means shittier enforcement of the ESA, shittier enforcement of CWA and CAA (as if that wasn't already shitty), shittier law enforcement and research investment in national parks, shittier law enforcement, project scoping, research, NEPA compliance, and mitigation compliance from the Forest Freddies, which in my neck of the woods already have a lot of trouble with keeing their nose clean and just following the goddam law as it is.

I think they are all a bunch of stuffed shirts, turds with lipstick.  so don't think i like obama any more than i like the others, they all suck.  but it appears that your desire to lower the bar to the bottom (vis Palin) will have dire consequences on the machinery that funds science in this country and protects the ecological commons from greedy exploitation by bourgeoise resource extractionists.

here is a carrot:  both of these cunts support "Clean Coal".  there ain't no such thing.  both have come out (tepidly) in opposition to mountain top removal surface mining.  If Yosemite McSame freezes the federal government, who will watch or oversee these activities from the federal level (as if it weren't abysmally ignored already)?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:17   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 08 2008,12:09)
well heddle i guess it is that time of the month or astrological zone or whatever.  can't be rational all the time i reckon.  Palin.  pardon me for spitting on the floor.

now, when mccain bitches about spending 3 million on a genetic study of grey wolves, should we take that seriously?  those of us who consider the ESA to be worth taking seriously should not be uneasy when he vows to slash all sorts of federal programs and budgets?

NSF?

USFWS?

USFS?

NPS?

are you shitting me, or are you just pulling the liberal chains?

I don't know what the hell you are talking about. Your posts always make me think of Peter from Family Guy when he ventured into the "beyond" section of "Bed, Bath and Beyond." Feel free not to take anything McCain says seriously--I don't.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:19   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 08 2008,11:20)
So, heddle, what do you think of McCain's stance that planetariums are a waste of money?

What a stupid statement to make...at a time when the nation is drowning in debt, people are losing their homes, some are losing all of their retirement or savings, etc.  Lately, there have even been instances of suicide, murder, etc. due to an enormous financial crisis that the government has led us into.

FUCK THAT PLANETARIUM!!

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:22   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,13:19)
Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 08 2008,11:20)
So, heddle, what do you think of McCain's stance that planetariums are a waste of money?

What a stupid statement to make...at a time when the nation is drowning in debt, people are losing their homes, some are losing all of their retirement or savings, etc.  Lately, there have even been instances of suicide, murder, etc. due to an enormous financial crisis that the government has led us into.

FUCK THAT PLANETARIUM!!

Right. A tiny sum for education: Right out.

Spending trillions to kill more people: Excellent use of resources.

And its people like Bush and McCain that lead us into the financial crisis in the first place. And you want to let them try to fix it?

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:24   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,12:19)
FUCK THAT PLANETARIUM!!

Ya...all the larnin kids ned is in teh Wholly Babble.  fak plaentrariums.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:30   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,13:19)
Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 08 2008,11:20)
So, heddle, what do you think of McCain's stance that planetariums are a waste of money?

What a stupid statement to make...at a time when the nation is drowning in debt, people are losing their homes, some are losing all of their retirement or savings, etc.  Lately, there have even been instances of suicide, murder, etc. due to an enormous financial crisis that the government has led us into.

FUCK THAT PLANETARIUM!!

Troll, troll troll.

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:30   

Since the planetarium cost several times less than Expelled, and is far more educational - I wonder if FTK will say "FUCK EXPELLED" as well?

And, of course, unlike Expelled, planetariums make money. It will pay itself back.

And how about that AIG museum? That makes the planetarium look like pocket change. I assume that should never have been built?

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:52   

sorry heddle i will try to use some nascar-speak.

beer, crash, titties, toby keith.

ok now are we on the same page?

Quote
We're not going to spend $3 million of your tax dollars to study the DNA of bears in Montana," McCain said earlier this year, referring to a request from Montana for federal money to study the endangered grizzly bear. "I don't know if it was a paternity issue or criminal, but it was a waste of money."


so i screwed up the taxon of interest.  

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008....ons.php

google the quote for more sources.

Now the question is, was that a waste of money?  Why or why not?  Please, have another Natural Light and a fistful of doritoes before answering, if you feel like that will bring you back from beyond my friend.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:57   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 08 2008,12:52)
sorry heddle i will try to use some nascar-speak.

beer, crash, titties, toby keith.

An interesting, but tangential, bit of trivia: Toby Keith is a registered Democrat. His home is about 7 miles from mine and I drive by it occasionally and, with only one exception, when there has been signs for political candidates on his property they have all been Democrats.  The one exception was a sign for a Republican running for county sheriff in the recent primaries.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:05   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 08 2008,12:30)
Since the planetarium cost several times less than Expelled, and is far more educational - I wonder if FTK will say "FUCK EXPELLED" as well?

And, of course, unlike Expelled, planetariums make money. It will pay itself back.

And how about that AIG museum? That makes the planetarium look like pocket change. I assume that should never have been built?

Did the federal government fund the creation museum?  That's news to me.

If I were the president, I'd rip that freaking budget apart and take every little stinking insignificant piece of shit (including planetariums) out of it for at least the next four years.  Then I'd *slowly* start funding some of the excessive bullshit again.

The number 1 thing we need to do for education is PAY OUR TEACHERS A HIGHER SALARY.  Forget all this no child left behind bs and all the other idiotic programs we have to pay for.  If we pay our teachers, we'll get quality education....  STARTING *EARLY ON* WITH OUR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHERS.  They don't get paid shit.  A few of the teachers my kids had during their early elementary years were worthless.  And, all the testing crap going on because of NCLB is frustrating beyond belief.  OMG, let's test again (my kids just finished early warning) to be sure our district doesn't get *left behind*.  If they'd just teach instead of dumb down subjects so the kids test well, we'd be a lot better off.

Hell, I'd even suggest taxing churches in order to help decrease the federal deficit if there were some way to ensure that the struggling ones wouldn't have to shut down because of the strain on their pocketbooks.

Something has to be done, and everyone has to be willing to give somewhere.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Jkrebs



Posts: 587
Joined: Sep. 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:10   

I'm in agreement with FtK here, for the most part.  FWIW and YMMV.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:15   

:O  :O  :O

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:17   

Quote (Jkrebs @ Oct. 08 2008,14:10)
I'm in agreement with FtK here, for the most part.  FWIW and YMMV.

I'm going to get this one nicely matted and framed.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:19   



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:20   

FtK

would enforcement of the ESA, NEPA, CWA or CAA be part of the budgets you'd cut?

given the tendency of the administration of George II to underfund and slash the budgets of the agencies responsible for those activities and the keen similarity of McSame and Governor FtK to that administration, do you think I am Beyond the Bed and Bath too?

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:26   

Quote (Jkrebs @ Oct. 08 2008,19:10)
I'm in agreement with FtK here, for the most part.  FWIW and YMMV.

Oh my, if this isn't sig-worthy I don't know what is, context be damned.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:28   

My oldest had a 1st grade teacher, who he unfortunately had again in 2nd grader.  She had gone to several seminars (funded by the feds of course) where she supposedly learned new techniques for teaching.

She felt it was better to let the kids make errors like crazy when spelling...don't correct them, etc.  No spelling tests.  She also didn't teach much phonics at all.  I about shit.  They did a lot of "expressing themselves" through writing journals.  That was the way to go in her opinion.  Christ.  My kid still isn't the greatest speller, and he does worse in language class than any other subject.

Sometimes I think public schools should take a look at the private schools that are more exclusive.  Both my sister's kids go to private school...one is a latin school.  The education level in the latin school is way above what my kids are getting, and the phonics program is unbelieveable.  Problem is I can't afford private school, and transportation is a problem as well as they don't have a busing system.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:28   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 08 2008,13:57)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 08 2008,12:52)
sorry heddle i will try to use some nascar-speak.

beer, crash, titties, toby keith.

An interesting, but tangential, bit of trivia: Toby Keith is a registered Democrat. His home is about 7 miles from mine and I drive by it occasionally and, with only one exception, when there has been signs for political candidates on his property they have all been Democrats.  The one exception was a sign for a Republican running for county sheriff in the recent primaries.

Still, I want that F.U.T.K. t-shirt.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:30   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 08 2008,14:26)
Quote (Jkrebs @ Oct. 08 2008,19:10)
I'm in agreement with FtK here, for the most part.  FWIW and YMMV.

Oh my, if this isn't sig-worthy I don't know what is, context be damned.

I'm trying to figure out how "FWIW and YMMV" translate to "I've just taken a whole fistfull of shrooms" but I can't puzzle it out.

:D

(Just kidding, the person playing Ftk was actually kinda reasonable there)

   
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:46   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,12:19)
Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 08 2008,11:20)
So, heddle, what do you think of McCain's stance that planetariums are a waste of money?

What a stupid statement to make...at a time when the nation is drowning in debt, people are losing their homes, some are losing all of their retirement or savings, etc.  Lately, there have even been instances of suicide, murder, etc. due to an enormous financial crisis that the government has led us into.

FUCK THAT PLANETARIUM!!

Sooo, you are going to add to those problems by throwing the people that work at the planetarium out of work? I guess you'd rather they be on unemployment or something.

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:53   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 08 2008,13:19)

[I] CREEPY GUY - STOP!!!!!![U]

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:53   

Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 08 2008,13:46)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,12:19)
FUCK THAT PLANETARIUM!!

Sooo, you are going to add to those problems by throwing the people that work at the planetarium out of work? I guess you'd rather they be on unemployment or something.

Can't they just use their brainwashing device in order to get patrons to donate money to the plane'arium?

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:04   

Ftk:

Quote

The number 1 thing we need to do for education is PAY OUR TEACHERS A HIGHER SALARY.


Wow, I'm totally on-board with that, too.

I've long held that various of our problems with education come from a long-term undervaluing of teachers. Part of that has to do with the disparity in pay accorded male and female workers. When teaching became one of the few respectable professional careers that a woman could practice, there was a lot more supply and less demand for teachers, and the salaries dropped... and that's not even counting for the further drop in salary that women experienced
compared to their male counterparts. As we passed the mid-20th century, there was a gradual opening of career opportunities for women, and a consequent decline in the pool of qualified applicants for teaching positions. The salary situation did not get corrected then, though, as if the shift in career choices was a momentary demographic hiccup. So now we have a profession whose members are mostly underpaid and overworked, and a common complaint about paying higher salaries (beyond the simple one of taxing for the increase) is that if we do that, then people who aren't worth that salary will nonetheless benefit by the salary increase. This is just spite, and shortsighted besides. An increase in salary may temporarily benefit some people who aren't doing a good job, but those higher salaries will attract more and more qualified people to do the work, and sub-performing teachers will be, by and large and eventually, squeezed out of the market.

Back in 1982, I took the exam and obtained a Florida teacher's certificate. I was offered a science teaching position at a private Christian school, but the offer was so low that I'd have been in worse financial shape to take it than I was in my current job, mostly due to the commute it would have required. And that was in the days of $0.35/gallon gasoline. My life would have taken a completely different course if teachers had been making living wages back at the time.

I'm not so much on board with de-funding science and science education related stuff, though. The government spends a piddly amount on science and science education, and reaps huge benefits out of that.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:07   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 08 2008,13:53)
Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 08 2008,13:46)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,12:19)
FUCK THAT PLANETARIUM!!

Sooo, you are going to add to those problems by throwing the people that work at the planetarium out of work? I guess you'd rather they be on unemployment or something.

Can't they just use their brainwashing device in order to get patrons to donate money to the plane'arium?

You would certainly think so, no?  Those f*ucking moronic creationists sure are able to raise some serious cash for their projects. Maybe you can take some pointers from them?

You folks try to convince us that there are virtually no supporters of creation science, yet look how much money they raised for something they thought was important.  So, think of all the cash you folks could generate seeing as there are millions upon millions of supporters of "good" science.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:18   

Howie Ahmanson?

troll, troll, troll, you got a potty mouth.




--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:25   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:07)
You would certainly think so, no?  Those f*ucking moronic creationists sure are able to raise some serious cash for their projects. Maybe you can take some pointers from them?

You folks try to convince us that there are virtually no supporters of creation science, yet look how much money they raised for something they thought was important.  So, think of all the cash you folks could generate seeing as there are millions upon millions of supporters of "good" science.

That's easy.  One side actually conducts research, advances science, publishes in peer-reviewed technical journals, faces competition for grants, and has their research scruitinized by others in their field.  Basically, anything they have to present is far beyond the understanding of most people.

The other side sells video tapes in church basements (essentially taking money that would potentially be donated to the church instead), face little to no scrutiny from within their own "field" regardless of the numerously apparent conflicting opinions, they publish minimal "research" and instead focus on press releases, and present "science" in factless one-liners meant to reinforce their constituency's already determined conclusions.

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:26   

[url=An increase in salary may temporarily benefit some people who aren't doing a good job, but those higher salaries will attract more and more qualified people to do the work, and sub-performing teachers will be, by and large and eventually, squeezed out of the market.[/url]

Which is EXACTLY what needs to happen...!  Let the less qualified folks who are interested in teaching be aides, substitutes, paraprofessionals, etc.  Raise their salaries as well.  Cut all the excessive programs,  educational tools, supplies and other bs and give the money to the teachers.  Pull in *talent* from the universities.  An intelligent, enthusiastic teacher doesn't need all the other bullshit to get the kids interested in learning.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:30   

Quote (American Saddlebred @ Oct. 08 2008,14:25)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:07)
You would certainly think so, no?  Those f*ucking moronic creationists sure are able to raise some serious cash for their projects. Maybe you can take some pointers from them?

You folks try to convince us that there are virtually no supporters of creation science, yet look how much money they raised for something they thought was important.  So, think of all the cash you folks could generate seeing as there are millions upon millions of supporters of "good" science.

That's easy.  One side actually conducts research, advances science, publishes in peer-reviewed technical journals, faces competition for grants, and has their research scruitinized by others in their field.  Basically, anything they have to present is far beyond the understanding of most people.

The other side sells video tapes in church basements (essentially taking money that would potentially be donated to the church instead), face little to no scrutiny from within their own "field" regardless of the numerously apparent conflicting opinions, they publish minimal "research" and instead focus on press releases, and present "science" in factless one-liners meant to reinforce their constituency's already determined conclusions.

Hmmm...

So, creationists are able to raise millions, and evolutionists aren't because the public doesn't get them?

WTF?

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:34   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,12:30)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ Oct. 08 2008,14:25)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:07)
You would certainly think so, no?  Those f*ucking moronic creationists sure are able to raise some serious cash for their projects. Maybe you can take some pointers from them?

You folks try to convince us that there are virtually no supporters of creation science, yet look how much money they raised for something they thought was important.  So, think of all the cash you folks could generate seeing as there are millions upon millions of supporters of "good" science.

That's easy.  One side actually conducts research, advances science, publishes in peer-reviewed technical journals, faces competition for grants, and has their research scruitinized by others in their field.  Basically, anything they have to present is far beyond the understanding of most people.

The other side sells video tapes in church basements (essentially taking money that would potentially be donated to the church instead), face little to no scrutiny from within their own "field" regardless of the numerously apparent conflicting opinions, they publish minimal "research" and instead focus on press releases, and present "science" in factless one-liners meant to reinforce their constituency's already determined conclusions.

Hmmm...

So, creationists are able to raise millions, and evolutionists aren't because the public doesn't get them?

WTF?

No, creationists are doing nothing else all day except separating the believers from their money.  Meanwhile, most scientists are doing science.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:35   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:30)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ Oct. 08 2008,14:25)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:07)
You would certainly think so, no?  Those f*ucking moronic creationists sure are able to raise some serious cash for their projects. Maybe you can take some pointers from them?

You folks try to convince us that there are virtually no supporters of creation science, yet look how much money they raised for something they thought was important.  So, think of all the cash you folks could generate seeing as there are millions upon millions of supporters of "good" science.

That's easy.  One side actually conducts research, advances science, publishes in peer-reviewed technical journals, faces competition for grants, and has their research scruitinized by others in their field.  Basically, anything they have to present is far beyond the understanding of most people.

The other side sells video tapes in church basements (essentially taking money that would potentially be donated to the church instead), face little to no scrutiny from within their own "field" regardless of the numerously apparent conflicting opinions, they publish minimal "research" and instead focus on press releases, and present "science" in factless one-liners meant to reinforce their constituency's already determined conclusions.

Hmmm...

So, creationists are able to raise millions, and evolutionists aren't because the public doesn't get them?

WTF?

This might help.



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:35   

Unless ftk's past abuses of the edit button were extremely in excess, I would think she can handle having an edit button again.  The common design and common descent mixup was priceless though  :)

Of course, this wasn't and never would be my decision.  Just my opinion.

   
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:38   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:30)
Hmmm...

So, creationists are able to raise millions, and evolutionists aren't because the public doesn't get them?

WTF?

Are you saying hundreds of millions aren't spent on research in those scientifically relevant fields?  Hmm where the fuck did that money come from?

I guess I am missing your point.

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:39   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 08 2008,14:34)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,12:30)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ Oct. 08 2008,14:25)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:07)
You would certainly think so, no?  Those f*ucking moronic creationists sure are able to raise some serious cash for their projects. Maybe you can take some pointers from them?

You folks try to convince us that there are virtually no supporters of creation science, yet look how much money they raised for something they thought was important.  So, think of all the cash you folks could generate seeing as there are millions upon millions of supporters of "good" science.

That's easy.  One side actually conducts research, advances science, publishes in peer-reviewed technical journals, faces competition for grants, and has their research scruitinized by others in their field.  Basically, anything they have to present is far beyond the understanding of most people.

The other side sells video tapes in church basements (essentially taking money that would potentially be donated to the church instead), face little to no scrutiny from within their own "field" regardless of the numerously apparent conflicting opinions, they publish minimal "research" and instead focus on press releases, and present "science" in factless one-liners meant to reinforce their constituency's already determined conclusions.

Hmmm...

So, creationists are able to raise millions, and evolutionists aren't because the public doesn't get them?

WTF?

No, creationists are doing nothing else all day except separating the believers from their money.  Meanwhile, most scientists are doing science.

lol...okay.  

Still, I'm thinking that if you sciency folks put your thinking caps on, you might be able to raise a bit of cash for your, oh so vital, planetarium.   Get groups like NCFS to work on projects like that rather than having Genie & crew out looking for creationists she can bad mouth.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:40   

Quote (American Saddlebred @ Oct. 08 2008,14:38)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:30)
Hmmm...

So, creationists are able to raise millions, and evolutionists aren't because the public doesn't get them?

WTF?

Are you saying hundreds of millions aren't spent on research in those scientifically relevant fields?  Hmm where the fuck did that money come from?

I guess I am missing your point.

I think you are too.  I give up.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:44   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:40)
I think you are too.  I give up.

Maybe we can figure this out in one simple question.  What do creation "scientists" do?

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:46   

Just want to mention that McSame attack ads here in Ohio are quote-mining.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:51   

Quote (American Saddlebred @ Oct. 08 2008,14:44)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:40)
I think you are too.  I give up.

Maybe we can figure this out in one simple question.  What do creation "scientists" do?

For not being federally funded, they do a lot, though they are limited because of cash flow.  I just recently ran across a person in Second Life who works on creationist projects in her spare time (baraminology). Get a hold of some creationist journals, books, etc.  I've found all kinds of creationists papers on the Internet lately that I never knew existed.  There are creationist seminars all the time in which creation scientists discuss what they've been working on.  It's amazing how much *is* going on in creation science considering that everything that funds it is volunteer.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:54   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:51)
For not being federally funded, they do a lot, though they are limited because of cash flow.  

Hey Albie, what is the annual budget of the biology deparment up there in The Little Apple in comparison to Ken Ham's $20 mill Flintstone's Museum?

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:55   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:51)
For not being federally funded, they do a lot, though they are limited because of cash flow.  I just recently ran across a person in Second Life who works on creationist projects in her spare time (baraminology). Get a hold of some creationist journals, books, etc.  I've found all kinds of creationists papers on the Internet lately that I never knew existed.  There are creationist seminars all the time in which creation scientists discuss what they've been working on.  It's amazing how much *is* going on in creation science considering that everything that funds it is volunteer.

Link me?

Show me a research project that involves bacterial cultures.  Show me some medical research.  Show me something, don't just tell me *oh it's going on all over the place* and not provide anything.

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:57   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,20:07)
You folks try to convince us that there are virtually no supporters of creation science, yet look how much money they raised for something they thought was important.  So, think of all the cash you folks could generate seeing as there are millions upon millions of supporters of "good" science.

That's not at all we are saying. We (meaning non-antievolutionists) are saying that there is no EVIDENCE in favour of it.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:58   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:51)
For not being federally funded, they do a lot, though they are limited because of cash flow.  I just recently ran across a person in Second Life who works on creationist projects in her spare time (baraminology). Get a hold of some creationist journals, books, etc.  I've found all kinds of creationists papers on the Internet lately that I never knew existed.  There are creationist seminars all the time in which creation scientists discuss what they've been working on.  It's amazing how much *is* going on in creation science considering that everything that funds it is volunteer.

It is amazing, I agree.

Too bad it is all total BS, advancing our knowledge of the world not one iota.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:01   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 08 2008,14:54)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:51)
For not being federally funded, they do a lot, though they are limited because of cash flow.  

Hey Albie, what is the annual budget of the biology deparment up there in The Little Apple in comparison to Ken Ham's $20 mill Flintstone's Museum?

Our budget from the state funds is about $1.5 million. We bring in approx $10-12 million per year from grants and contracts. That money contributes significantly to the employment rate here in the Little Apple.

But hey, since we're all condescending atheists on a daily basis, they should cut that money off pronto...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:04   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 08 2008,15:01)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 08 2008,14:54)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:51)
For not being federally funded, they do a lot, though they are limited because of cash flow.  

Hey Albie, what is the annual budget of the biology deparment up there in The Little Apple in comparison to Ken Ham's $20 mill Flintstone's Museum?

Our budget from the state funds is about $1.5 million. We bring in approx $10-12 million per year from grants and contracts. That money contributes significantly to the employment rate here in the Little Apple.

But hey, since we're all condescending atheists on a daily basis, they should cut that money off pronto...

So, what you are saying is for the cost of his museum (ignoring the ongoing income/cashflow), Ken Ham could have fully funded the teaching and research of a major universities biology department for two years?  Wow!  Imagine all the groundbreaking research that his creation scientists could have done if they only had access to that kind of funding.  Think of all the new medical advances that will be missed now!

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:10   

So, to recap, when Obama requests money for an educational tool that makes money, and hence helps the economy, this is bad.

When McCain requests $10 million for "William H. Rehnquist Center on Constitutional Structures and Judicial Independence", three times what the planetarium cost, during the same time period, this is important, wise spending.

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Jkrebs



Posts: 587
Joined: Sep. 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:12   

I should make it clear that I'm not for cutting science funding, but I do agree that there is a lot of stuff that could be/should be cut from the federal budget.  (I'm thinking of a war or two right off the top of my head.)

I also agree that teachers are way underpaid, and that NCLB has been a detriment to education. I also agree that some programs, like the spelling stuff that Ftk mentioned, are excessive and not well-balanced: there are times when you want to encourage fluency in young writers and therefore can tolerate inventive spelling, but you also need a solid strand of instruction in conventional spelling, and you need times when correct spelling in a finished product is expected.

However, I also know that the right wing often (usually?) exaggerates the flaws of public education and fails to put both our efforts and the challenges we face from the broader society into perspective. (IAAPSE, by the way - I am a public school educator.)

So I'm sure I'm not in total agreement with FtK concerning the post in question above, and I'm sure that we would differ on what parts of he budget we should cut.  I'm for education, health, and social services, for instance, and against war.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:24   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 08 2008,13:10)
So, to recap, when Obama requests money for an educational tool that makes money, and hence helps the economy, this is bad.

When McCain requests $10 million for "William H. Rehnquist Center on Constitutional Structures and Judicial Independence", three times what the planetarium cost, during the same time period, this is important, wise spending.

I'd still have disagreed with him on funding, but I wouldn't have minded the planetarium issue being brought up if McCain had used some of that "straight talk" he's supposed to be so good at.  Calling a planetarium projection system an "overhead projector" is blatantly dishonest.  It's like calling the Spirit and Opportunity rovers radio-controlled toys.


[edited teh speling...]

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:28   

Quote
DAVID BROOKS SEES SARAH PALIN AS A 'CANCER'.... The New York Times' David Brooks appeared at an event this afternoon, alongside The Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg, and had a few provocative things to say about the presidential race. Specifically, the columnist described Sarah Palin as a "fatal cancer to the Republican Party," and compared Palin's anti-intellectualism to the president's.
Quote
"[Palin] represents a fatal cancer to the republican party. When I first started in journalism, I worked at the National Review for Bill Buckley. And Buckley famously said he'd rather be ruled by the first 2,000 names in the Boston phone book than by the Harvard faculty. But he didn't think those were the only two options. He thought it was important to have people on the conservative side who celebrated ideas, who celebrated learning. And his whole life was based on that, and that was also true for a lot of the other conservatives in the Reagan era. Reagan had an immense faith in the power of ideas. But there has been a counter, more populist tradition, which is not only to scorn liberal ideas but to scorn ideas entirely. And I'm afraid that Sarah Palin has those prejudices. I think President Bush has those prejudices."
Brooks added that Palin is "absolutely not" ready for national office.


From http://washingtonmonthly.com/ . There's more, about Brooks contradicting himself, but I thought this was the interesting bit. It is just more of what I've said the last few weeks, that the stupids are pushing the smarts out of the GOP.

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:32   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 08 2008,16:24)
Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 08 2008,13:10)
So, to recap, when Obama requests money for an educational tool that makes money, and hence helps the economy, this is bad.

When McCain requests $10 million for "William H. Rehnquist Center on Constitutional Structures and Judicial Independence", three times what the planetarium cost, during the same time period, this is important, wise spending.

I'd still have disagreed with him on funding, but I wouldn't have minded the planetarium issue being brought up if McCain had used some of that "straight talk" he's supposed to be so good at.  Calling a planetarium projection system an "overhead projector" is blatantly dishonest.  It's like calling the Spirit and Opportunity rovers radio-controlled toys.


[edited teh speling...]

Straight Talk go thrown under the bus long ago. He's been outright lying for a while now - dishonesty is an improvement.

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:38   

Quote

Calling a planetarium projection system an "overhead projector" is blatantly dishonest.


I think "obviously ignorant" or "apparently stupid" haven't been ruled out yet.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:38   

Quote (American Saddlebred @ Oct. 08 2008,14:55)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:51)
For not being federally funded, they do a lot, though they are limited because of cash flow.  I just recently ran across a person in Second Life who works on creationist projects in her spare time (baraminology). Get a hold of some creationist journals, books, etc.  I've found all kinds of creationists papers on the Internet lately that I never knew existed.  There are creationist seminars all the time in which creation scientists discuss what they've been working on.  It's amazing how much *is* going on in creation science considering that everything that funds it is volunteer.

Link me?

Show me a research project that involves bacterial cultures.  Show me some medical research.  Show me something, don't just tell me *oh it's going on all over the place* and not provide anything.

Something that you seem to really *fail* to understand is that there is no need for them to do medical research, etc.  Sweetie, creationists simply aren't as cut off from the real world as you seem to believe.  You act as if they don't agree with anything that science has to offer.  That's ridiculous...they are *pro* science, regardless of what you would like to believe.  

Where they differ is in regard to the area of origins research, and yes this can involve many areas of science.  There are still so many questions in this regard, so to suggest that you evolutionists have all the answers and creationist don't know squat is just absurd.  Both sides have massaged their theories over the years, and I truly believe both should be considered if for no other reason that for checks and balances.  Some of the stuff I see put out by evolutionists is laughable.  The stories are outrageous.

You can google can't you?  A lot of it is in creationist journals, and of course good 'ol Walt has done all kinds of field work and research that you refuse to even acknowledge exists.  His theory about the grand canyon alone makes much more sense than a lot of secular theories out there.  But, you have to actually read it in it's entirety.  And, yes, he actually left his armchair to do the work.

The gal I've been talking to about baraminology told me there are people working on it in their spare time, and a few Christian colleges getting some funding for it.  You'd be surprised how similar it is to what evolutionists do when placing organisms in certain groups.  Like I said before, the only difference is the presupositions that people hold when comparing organisms and their simliarities and differences.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:41   

Quote
His theory about the grand canyon alone makes much more sense than a lot of secular theories out there.


You are completely and utterly insane, FTK.



--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Gunthernacus



Posts: 235
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:45   

I somewhat agree with FtK, too, about the pork barrel projects during an economic crisis - are these projects of Obama's that recent?  However, pork fat is the grease of the government engine.  Just look at the pork that had to be added to the bail-out bill to get those principled congressmen to re-examine (and pass) it.

     
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,15:07)
Those f*ucking moronic creationists sure are able to raise some serious cash for their projects. Maybe you can take some pointers from them?

You folks try to convince us that there are virtually no supporters of creation science, yet look how much money they raised for something they thought was important.  So, think of all the cash you folks could generate seeing as there are millions upon millions of supporters of "good" science.

You say "creation science", but I can't find any science (not even any pretend science) at your link.  I can find what a day's admission costs, and what a 2-day pass costs.  I found a link where I can donate without visiting.  I found a link where I can sign up (and pay for) a new membership.  I found a link where I can make a payment on an existing membership.  I found a link to a store where I can buy some merchandise.  But no science (not even pretend).

 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,15:07)
You folks try to convince us that there are virtually no supporters of creation science, yet look how much money they raised for something they thought was important.

Who are the "us" and the "they" I bolded above?  How are you not part of "they"?  Did you not donate any money or do you not think the "museum" is important - or are you just pretending to be on the fence?

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,15:51)
...[Creationists] do a lot, though they are limited because of cash flow.
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,16:38)
The gal I've been talking to about baraminology told me there are people working on it in their spare time, and a few Christian colleges getting some funding for it.

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,15:07)
...yet look how much money they raised for something they thought was important.

Yep.  Did I mention that there wasn't any science at your link (not even pretend)?

--------------
Given that we are all descended from Adam and Eve...genetic defects as a result of intra-family marriage would not begin to crop up until after the first few dozen generations. - Dr. Hugh Ross

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:46   

Quote (Jkrebs @ Oct. 08 2008,15:12)
I should make it clear that I'm not for cutting science funding, but I do agree that there is a lot of stuff that could be/should be cut from the federal budget.  (I'm thinking of a war or two right off the top of my head.)

I also agree that teachers are way underpaid, and that NCLB has been a detriment to education. I also agree that some programs, like the spelling stuff that Ftk mentioned, are excessive and not well-balanced: there are times when you want to encourage fluency in young writers and therefore can tolerate inventive spelling, but you also need a solid strand of instruction in conventional spelling, and you need times when correct spelling in a finished product is expected.

However, I also know that the right wing often (usually?) exaggerates the flaws of public education and fails to put both our efforts and the challenges we face from the broader society into perspective. (IAAPSE, by the way - I am a public school educator.)

So I'm sure I'm not in total agreement with FtK concerning the post in question above, and I'm sure that we would differ on what parts of he budget we should cut.  I'm for education, health, and social services, for instance, and against war.

The problem with war is that we've gotten our economical success mixed up in it.  It's a sick circle, and one I'm not sure can be made right again.  That and relying on foreign energy...guarding our oil supply etc..  It's a fricking disasterous mess. My husband and I were discussing this all weekend, and my head hurt by the end of the day.  It's depressing.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:51   

Quote
HUSSEIN.... Way back in February, Karl Rove heard a growing number of Republicans blasting "Barack Hussein Obama," and warned his fellow Republicans to drop the line. Rove argued it would only perpetuate the notion that Republicans were bigoted, which in turn would hurt the party.


That same week, at an event in Ohio, McCain was introduced by some conservative loud-mouth named Bill Cunningham, who blasted "Barack Hussein Obama." McCain, who was not on stage during Cunningham's harangue, later expressed said he wanted to "disassociate" himself from the remarks. McCain added that he would take responsibility to ensure that similar comments are not repeated at future campaign events.

That was February. This is October.  
Quote
For the second time in three days, the speaker at a McCain campaign rally used Barack Obama's middle name "Hussein" in a demeaning fashion to ignite the crowd.

Speaking in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Bill Platt, the GOP chair of Lehigh County, twice referred to "Barack Hussein Obama" minutes before John McCain and Sarah Palin were set to take the stage.

On Monday, a local Florida sheriff preceded Palin's speech by declaring: "On Nov. 4, let's leave Barack Hussein Obama wondering what happened."

To be fair, a campaign aide later conceded that this was "inappropriate rhetoric." But the trend nevertheless seems to point in one direction: whipping the angry, far-right Republican base into a frenzy. That includes the increasing frequency of "Hussein" references, but it also includes looking the other way while campaign supporters exclaim "treason!," "terrorist!," and "kill him!" during official rallies.

Josh Marshall, not exactly one for off-the-wall theories, argued the McCain campaign may very well be doing this deliberately: "It is obviously with tacit approval (to believe anything else is to be a dupe at this point); and quite probably on the campaign's specific instructions. Given the regularity of the cries of 'treason' and 'terrorist' and the like, and the frequency with which the screamers seem in oddly convenient proximity to the mics, we should probably be considering the possibly that these folks are campaign plants. It happens all the time. It's just that usually they don't scream out accusations of capital crimes."


http://washingtonmonthly.com/

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:54   

No, I didn't donate to the creation museum.  Shoot, we haven't had any extra money to donate to anything the past year or so, other than some to my church.  This economy is absolutely killing our pocketbook.  We haven't vacationed in several years, and have watched every single penny we've made.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:57   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 08 2008,16:51)
Quote
HUSSEIN.... Way back in February, Karl Rove heard a growing number of Republicans blasting "Barack Hussein Obama," and warned his fellow Republicans to drop the line. Rove argued it would only perpetuate the notion that Republicans were bigoted, which in turn would hurt the party.


That same week, at an event in Ohio, McCain was introduced by some conservative loud-mouth named Bill Cunningham, who blasted "Barack Hussein Obama." McCain, who was not on stage during Cunningham's harangue, later expressed said he wanted to "disassociate" himself from the remarks. McCain added that he would take responsibility to ensure that similar comments are not repeated at future campaign events.

That was February. This is October.  
Quote
For the second time in three days, the speaker at a McCain campaign rally used Barack Obama's middle name "Hussein" in a demeaning fashion to ignite the crowd.

Speaking in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Bill Platt, the GOP chair of Lehigh County, twice referred to "Barack Hussein Obama" minutes before John McCain and Sarah Palin were set to take the stage.

On Monday, a local Florida sheriff preceded Palin's speech by declaring: "On Nov. 4, let's leave Barack Hussein Obama wondering what happened."

To be fair, a campaign aide later conceded that this was "inappropriate rhetoric." But the trend nevertheless seems to point in one direction: whipping the angry, far-right Republican base into a frenzy. That includes the increasing frequency of "Hussein" references, but it also includes looking the other way while campaign supporters exclaim "treason!," "terrorist!," and "kill him!" during official rallies.

Josh Marshall, not exactly one for off-the-wall theories, argued the McCain campaign may very well be doing this deliberately: "It is obviously with tacit approval (to believe anything else is to be a dupe at this point); and quite probably on the campaign's specific instructions. Given the regularity of the cries of 'treason' and 'terrorist' and the like, and the frequency with which the screamers seem in oddly convenient proximity to the mics, we should probably be considering the possibly that these folks are campaign plants. It happens all the time. It's just that usually they don't scream out accusations of capital crimes."


http://washingtonmonthly.com/

Apparently the Secret Service are taking it seriously, so if it is a plant and they find out about it I suspect that's one gamble that defiantly won't pay off.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Quidam



Posts: 229
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,15:58   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:38)
You can google can't you?  A lot of it is in creationist journals, and of course good 'ol Walt has done all kinds of field work and research that you refuse to even acknowledge exists.  His theory about the grand canyon alone makes much more sense than a lot of secular theories out there.  But, you have to actually read it in it's entirety.  And, yes, he actually left his armchair to do the work.

The gal I've been talking to about baraminology told me there are people working on it in their spare time, and a few Christian colleges getting some funding for it.  You'd be surprised how similar it is to what evolutionists do when placing organisms in certain groups.

And when a geologist goes into the field with his hammer it looks a lot like what convicts do breaking rocks.  But because something looks 'sciency' doesn't make it so.

I have read Brown's tale. Nothing about Brown's geology makes sense to someone with any geological knowledge.  Nothing he has said accounts for faunal succession, the existence of changing facies thoughout the column, generations of animals living and dying, layer upon layer in rocks that are claimed to have been laid down and re-excavated in a year or so.

Recently consolidated and saturated sediments do not and cannot form cliffs of the scale of the Grand Canyon.

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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
Quidam



Posts: 229
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,16:06   

McCain IS Gollum.



He was one an honorable creature who doesn't like what the lust for power has done to him.  He's now a shrunken shell dominated by forces and creatures out of his control

--------------
The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,16:08   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 08 2008,15:04)
Ftk:

   
Quote

The number 1 thing we need to do for education is PAY OUR TEACHERS A HIGHER SALARY.


Wow, I'm totally on-board with that, too.

Oh Lord, the End-Times are truly upon us. *Wailing and gnashing of teeth*

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Gunthernacus



Posts: 235
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,16:16   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,16:54)
No, I didn't donate to the creation museum.  Shoot, we haven't had any extra money to donate to anything the past year or so, other than some to my church.  This economy is absolutely killing our pocketbook.  We haven't vacationed in several years, and have watched every single penny we've made.

Hubby doesn't go to church?

Maybe you should petition your congressman for a new planetarium.  A new building project creates all kinds of jobs - even one for an architect.

--------------
Given that we are all descended from Adam and Eve...genetic defects as a result of intra-family marriage would not begin to crop up until after the first few dozen generations. - Dr. Hugh Ross

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,16:22   

Sent to me by scary-smart daughter . . .
Quote
While suturing a cut on the hand of a 75-year old Montana rancher whose hand was caught in a gate while working cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man. Eventually the topic got around to Sarah Palin and her bid to be a heartbeat away from being President. The old rancher said, 'Well, ya know, Palin is a post turtle.' Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a post turtle was.

The old rancher said, 'When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle.'

The old rancher saw a puzzled look on the doctor's face, so he continued to explain. 'You know, she didn't get up there by herself, she doesn't belong up there, she doesn't know what to do while she is up there, and you just wonder what kind of dumbass put her up there to begin with.


To her frustration, scary-smart daughter isn't old enough to vote yet.

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,16:42   

Quote (Gunthernacus @ Oct. 08 2008,16:16)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,16:54)
No, I didn't donate to the creation museum.  Shoot, we haven't had any extra money to donate to anything the past year or so, other than some to my church.  This economy is absolutely killing our pocketbook.  We haven't vacationed in several years, and have watched every single penny we've made.

Hubby doesn't go to church?

Maybe you should petition your congressman for a new planetarium.  A new building project creates all kinds of jobs - even one for an architect.

It's *our* church, but no hubby isn't a regular church goer (probably why I said *my*).  He's usually worked on Sunday mornings that past year or so.  But, even when he's not working, he's not terribly keen on going to church.  It has nothing to do with his beliefs.  He's a Christian and his beliefs are quite simliar to mine.  He likes listening to our current Pastor's sermons, but he's not into all the other social stuff that goes on...too time consuming for him.  I don't participate in much of it either any more for lots of reasons...lack of time certainly one of them.  

He also feels like he needs to be home working on yard work and getting caught up on stuff around here and doesn't like to spend the time at church on Sunday mornings.  Wrong attitude, IMHO, but I understand it because we've spent many Sunday mornings together lately working on that damn house we're trying to sell.  Life is time consuming, period.  But, when he does go, he always mentions that he was glad he did.  Our Pastor's sermons always seem to zone in on particular problems we're experiencing in our lives lately, and it feels good to get that moral support.

Also, he grew up in a few churches with some serious issues....long story.  He's always quick to point out the hypocrisy of some people.  Of course, Christians are *NOT* perfect, that's for sure.  We're all at church for that reason...working as a community to *try* to better our lives for Christ and our fellow man.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,16:52   

FtK

Now that you are back here, can you answer my question in a previous comment on this thread?  I never saw any reply.

thanks

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,17:43   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:51)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ Oct. 08 2008,14:44)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:40)
I think you are too.  I give up.

Maybe we can figure this out in one simple question.  What do creation "scientists" do?

For not being federally funded, they do a lot, though they are limited because of cash flow.  I just recently ran across a person in Second Life who works on creationist projects in her spare time (baraminology). Get a hold of some creationist journals, books, etc.  I've found all kinds of creationists papers on the Internet lately that I never knew existed.  There are creationist seminars all the time in which creation scientists discuss what they've been working on.  It's amazing how much *is* going on in creation science considering that everything that funds it is volunteer.

So, they don't do anything?  Otherwise, you might have been able to give just one particular, a tiny one, one detail maybe?...

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,17:55   

I, also, am on board with Ftk regarding teacher pay.  I may, however, take some issue with related matters she brought up.  I'm going to have to get some definitions to decide.

Ftk, when you talk about cutting teaching aids and materials and other costs out of budgets, what exactly are the things you are cutting?  Sure, good teachers can teach whatever the circumstances, but is there not some value in "extra materials"?

What is your stance on the following:

1.  Field trips
2.  Text books
3.  Supplementary reading material
4.  Guest speakers and assemblies
5.  Hands on training

All of these things contribute significantly to education and all of them need to be paid for.  Are you for cutting these things?

Related topic: is your idea for raising teacher salaries merely to get that money from cutting the above items?  If so, what do you think the net educational gain will be by paying teachers more and making them work with less.  If not, are you in favor of raising taxes (property, most likely) in order to pay for this pay increase, or do you have something else in mind?

I agree with a lot of what you said on this topic and I am merely asking what your ideas on fixing a problem we both agree exists.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,18:03   

Quote (blipey @ Oct. 08 2008,17:43)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:51)
 
Quote (American Saddlebred @ Oct. 08 2008,14:44)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,14:40)
I think you are too.  I give up.

Maybe we can figure this out in one simple question.  What do creation "scientists" do?

For not being federally funded, they do a lot, though they are limited because of cash flow.  I just recently ran across a person in Second Life who works on creationist projects in her spare time (baraminology). Get a hold of some creationist journals, books, etc.  I've found all kinds of creationists papers on the Internet lately that I never knew existed.  There are creationist seminars all the time in which creation scientists discuss what they've been working on.  It's amazing how much *is* going on in creation science considering that everything that funds it is volunteer.

So, they don't do anything?  Otherwise, you might have been able to give just one particular, a tiny one, one detail maybe?...

I did come up with one thing, you moron.  I linked to Brown’s work.  Want more?  Just google, you little shit.  It takes about 10 seconds to come up with something.  There’s tons of stuff out there...

Quote
Speakers

Paul A. Garner is a lecturer and researcher with Biblical Creation Ministries. A Fellow of the Geological Society, Mr. Garner's current research focus is the depositional environment of the Coconino sandstone in the western United States. He is author of more than fifty creationist papers.

Todd Charles Wood is the director of the Center for Origins Research at Bryan College and the president of BSG: A Creation Biology Study Group. Author of over thirty research papers and monographs, Dr. Wood's main research interests are baraminology and genomics.

Kenneth J. Turner is Associate Professor of Bible at Bryan College, where he primarily teaches Hebrew, Old Testament, and theology courses. Dr. Turner's specialty and main interest is Old Testament Theology.

Roger W. Sanders is Associate Professor of Science at the Center for Origins Research at Bryan College. Dr. Sanders has more than 30 years of experience in plant systematics, with forty publications. Dr. Sanders's research interests include island biogeography and speciation.

Kurt P. Wise is director of the Center for Science and Theology and Professor of Science and Theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. A paleontologist by training, Dr. Wise has been very active in the creationist community for years, publishing more than fifty articles.

Joseph W. Francis is Professor of Biological Sciences at the Master's College, where he supervises a successful undergraduate research program in invertebrate and cellular immunology. His main research interest is microbiology and the origin of pathogenesis.


BTW, I’m keeping a running list of you IP address changes and plan to do something about your stalking.  Not sure yet what people do about an obsessed clown who has a serious mental problem, but I plan to look into it.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,18:07   

Lots of jolly fludee debate here.

There was never any danger of any discussion here, or there.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,18:09   

Quote (blipey @ Oct. 08 2008,17:55)
I, also, am on board with Ftk regarding teacher pay.  I may, however, take some issue with related matters she brought up.  I'm going to have to get some definitions to decide.

Ftk, when you talk about cutting teaching aids and materials and other costs out of budgets, what exactly are the things you are cutting?  Sure, good teachers can teach whatever the circumstances, but is there not some value in "extra materials"?

What is your stance on the following:

1.  Field trips
2.  Text books
3.  Supplementary reading material
4.  Guest speakers and assemblies
5.  Hands on training

All of these things contribute significantly to education and all of them need to be paid for.  Are you for cutting these things?

Related topic: is your idea for raising teacher salaries merely to get that money from cutting the above items?  If so, what do you think the net educational gain will be by paying teachers more and making them work with less.  If not, are you in favor of raising taxes (property, most likely) in order to pay for this pay increase, or do you have something else in mind?

I agree with a lot of what you said on this topic and I am merely asking what your ideas on fixing a problem we both agree exists.

I have a lot of ideas about cut backs, but you are the very last person I want to discuss this with.  Sorry.  I'm just not in the mood for clowning around with an asshole.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,18:10   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,18:03)
I did come up with one thing, you moron.  I linked to Brown’s work.  Want more?  Just google, you little shit.

I googled. Results are above*, but please reply in the FTK thread.

Oh, I make a funny!

EDIT: Results now in the FTK thread.

I can't ask any nicer then I am for a discussion FTK. Take it or leave it.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,18:11   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,18:09)
 Sorry.  I'm just not in the mood for clowning around with an asshole.

I'm happy to move to your thread and discuss the first paragraph of Walt's theory on the formation of the grand canyon?

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,18:12   

Detailed discussion of Ftk and Walt Brown etc should be moved to the Ftk thread.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,18:22   

Holy smokes, Intrade's now got Obama 76 McCain 24.

(If you think McCain's going to win, go buy McCain contracts and quadruple your money in 27 days)

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,18:38   

FWIW, I think it's bad that the GOP is in such sorry shape. I don't want the choice to be between 'tolerable' and 'sucks out loud'. What kind of choice is that? I want intelligent conservatives (George Will, Steve Bainbridge, Rod Dreher, Reihan, Jon Rauch, etc) to take back the party they began to lose around 1964. I want to have to choose between two intelligent, reality based groups of people. I don't want to have to automatically pick the Dems. But as long as the Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Karl Rove, "Obama is a terrorist/traitor/Muslim/Elitist/etc" "Palin is qualified", global warming denying, evolution denying, Grover Norquist Complete Total F*&%ing Moron crowd runs the GOP, I have no choice. I want a choice. But I suppose it's inevitable that at any given time, at least one party will be playing to the anti-intellectual strain of the American psyche.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,18:46   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 08 2008,18:38)
FWIW, I think it's bad that the GOP is in such sorry shape. I don't want the choice to be between 'tolerable' and 'sucks out loud'. What kind of choice is that? I want intelligent conservatives (George Will, Steve Bainbridge, Rod Dreher, Reihan, Jon Rauch, etc) to take back the party they began to lose around 1964. I want to have to choose between two intelligent, reality based groups of people. I don't want to have to automatically pick the Dems. But as long as the Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Karl Rove, "Obama is a terrorist/traitor/Muslim/Elitist/etc" "Palin is qualified", global warming denying, evolution denying, Grover Norquist Complete Total F*&%ing Moron crowd runs the GOP, I have no choice. I want a choice. But I suppose it's inevitable that at any given time, at least one party will be playing to the anti-intellectual strain of the American psyche.

good luck!

while you are at it, wish for a beer volcano and a little stream of whiskey tumbling from the rocks.

Anti-intellectualism IS America.

USA USA USA USA USA

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,18:50   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 08 2008,19:38)
FWIW, I think it's bad that the GOP is in such sorry shape. I don't want the choice to be between 'tolerable' and 'sucks out loud'. What kind of choice is that? I want intelligent conservatives (George Will, Steve Bainbridge, Rod Dreher, Reihan, Jon Rauch, etc) to take back the party they began to lose around 1964. I want to have to choose between two intelligent, reality based groups of people. I don't want to have to automatically pick the Dems. But as long as the Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Karl Rove, "Obama is a terrorist/traitor/Muslim/Elitist/etc" "Palin is qualified", global warming denying, evolution denying, Grover Norquist Complete Total F*&%ing Moron crowd runs the GOP, I have no choice. I want a choice. But I suppose it's inevitable that at any given time, at least one party will be playing to the anti-intellectual strain of the American psyche.

In some ways, I still consider myself a 'conservative'; but my definition of that word has been dragged out back and stomped flat.

I could debate with and consider intelligent conservatives even if I didn't agree with them; but you're right about the current 'leaders'.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,19:44   

I used to consider myself a conservative, back when I equated conservativism with Buckley, Will, Goldwater, Rauch, GHWB, Brent Scowcroft, etc. I mean I didn't wholly agree with them, but they were smart people with some smart ideas. This was around the late 80's, early 90's. I'm not going to write a big biographical piece about my political evolution, but let's just say my distance from conservatism grew as that strain of conservatism waned and the Hannity/Limbaugh/Glenn Beck/Tom Delay wing waxed.

(Just to be clear, that party didn't transform in the 80's/90's, my perception of the party transformed in that period. The transformation of the GOP started around 1964, as Nixon was touring the southern bigots and know-nothings, and telling aides, 'this is the future of the Republican party'.)

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,19:48   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 08 2008,19:46)
while you are at it, wish for a beer volcano and a little stream of whiskey tumbling from the rocks.

The beer volcano is in the Afterlife my friend. Have...have you heard the good news?


   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,20:47   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 08 2008,20:44)
I used to consider myself a conservative, back when I equated conservativism with Buckley, Will, Goldwater, Rauch, GHWB, Brent Scowcroft, etc. I mean I didn't wholly agree with them, but they were smart people with some smart ideas. This was around the late 80's, early 90's. I'm not going to write a big biographical piece about my political evolution, but let's just say my distance from conservatism grew as that strain of conservatism waned and the Hannity/Limbaugh/Glenn Beck/Tom Delay wing waxed.

(Just to be clear, that party didn't transform in the 80's/90's, my perception of the party transformed in that period. The transformation of the GOP started around 1964, as Nixon was touring the southern bigots and know-nothings, and telling aides, 'this is the future of the Republican party'.)

As someone of the female grouping, the 'conservatives' lost me when they decided that my body was subject to their control.  

Creepy Christian Crotch Police

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,20:58   

I was hanging in there when I thought their anti-abortion stuff was based on simply thinking the baby was a unique individual. Even though liberals were saying cons just want to control females I wasn't buying it just from the abortion thing. Then I heard about conservative efforts to ban birth control, and I had one of these moments


   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,21:05   

"We're into personal responsibility."

"We're into getting the government off of people's backs."

"We're into forcing you to give birth to the child of your rapist."

"And said forced birth is only an inconvenience."

Any further thoughts are unprintable.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,21:35   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 08 2008,21:58)
I was hanging in there when I thought their anti-abortion stuff was based on simply thinking the baby was a unique individual. Even though liberals were saying cons just want to control females I wasn't buying it just from the abortion thing. Then I heard about conservative efforts to ban birth control, and I had one of these moments


Welcome to the reality of the female contingent.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,22:27   

I got it. It took me a while, but eventually I got it.

   
Ra-Úl



Posts: 93
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,00:04   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 08 2008,22:27)
I got it. It took me a while, but eventually I got it.

I have no idea what political side I'm in, but I am with you in thinking the GOP sold its soul with the 'Southern Strategy' post Goldwater. I still think Will writes better English than most people in the planet, and consider fiscal responsibility and restraint a Holy Grail. Or a grail-shaped beacon.
I have conservative female friends who well into the 90's still gave the right wing of the party a pass on abortion, until one of them got a job running fund raisng for a local politician with the proviso he didn't bring abortion into the race. One morning she found out he was leading an anti abortion march, parked her car in front of the not-very-impressive crowd, told him 'kiss your money goodbye' and quit the campaign. She still considers herself a conservative, despises fundies and backs reproductive rights . . . Don't know what to make of the whole thing any more.

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Beauty is that which makes us desperate. - P Valery

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,00:51   

is your friend a randian?  

anyway what is the connection between adult anti-intellectualism and the old game kick the nerd on the playground?  the archetype is old and probably some variant of whatever the city mouse-country mouse thing is.  It's been in movies and television a long time, Homer Simpson's neighbor old whatshis name, nerdy scientists, Steve Erkel, hell Roger from What's Happening, I don't know any more right now.  But between that bullshit and a bunch of gym coaches in Bike old man shorts with bulging veins screaming at highschoolers in PE class its little wonder that when kids grow up you get active disdain for people that pursue an intellectual career.  

So this year you see more than ever the identity politics thing played out more than ever, cynically called populism, substance is avoided* (partly due to the sound bite nature of communication media) and a race to the bottom for the vote of "Joe Six Pack"**.  And it might work.

Hell it will work because that what this is all about.  It seems to me the only empirical metric boils down to "Whose face do you wanna see on TV for the next 4 years" ; accordingly folks who generally desire more to talk about during watercooler chat are disgruntled.  you can't tell the lipstick from the pig, so much.

Has anyone ever seen statistics about the geographic prevalence of bullying?  I don't know how you measure 'anti-intellectualism'. as a irrelevant aside rats start eating each other when they get too crowded.  what is this bullshit all about?

*the question is what constitutes 'substance' in such a discussion.  i don't know.

**who in the hell is that?  a rassler?  is that some kind of shitty nashville country music song or something?  Around here it is Marvin Meth-Head and Larlene the Heavy Twinkie Operator.  OK probably also some wildlife biologists and yuppie tailwater fly fishermen (and apparently a physicist, eh Heddle?).  Why does that even work as an abstraction is what I want to know.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,01:29   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 08 2008,17:37)
But don't ask me about McCain anymore. I don't particularly like McCain. I'm voting for Palin.

If you don't mind me asking, is it because you think she's a good candidate or the least bad or for some third reason?

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,06:35   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 09 2008,01:29)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 08 2008,17:37)
But don't ask me about McCain anymore. I don't particularly like McCain. I'm voting for Palin.

If you don't mind me asking, is it because you think she's a good candidate or the least bad or for some third reason?

It is because I think she is a great candidate. Obama is a good candidate. McCain is a mediocre candidate. And Biden is a loser.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,08:45   

(Trying to keep to topic...)

I'd love to see this happen but I'm not sure either candidate has it as enough of a priority.

Also, because I think it got lost in some of the noise that followed:

 
Quote (Spottedwind @ Oct. 03 2008,11:54)
Does anyone have access to The Scientist blog?  I'd like to hear about this entry but can't register at work.

From what I can glean, it's a post about who is advising McCain on Science, something I'd like to know.


(I've found Obama's list and I like what I see.)

One of my biggest frustrations with Bush has been interaction with science.  I get so angry and frustrated about how much interference this administration has shown in scientific* areas.  The agendas that they have pushed that went directly in the face of contrary evidence and either had to have that evidence changed, omitted, or just out right ignored.  Hell, that last sentence pretty much describes the decision making process they used at all times.

* Other areas too but specific to science for this topic.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,10:09   

dheddle:

Quote

It is because I think she is a great candidate.


I think I must have missed something. Actually, to get to great I must have missed a lot, and most of what I didn't miss must be wrong.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,10:32   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,12:35)
Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 09 2008,01:29)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 08 2008,17:37)
But don't ask me about McCain anymore. I don't particularly like McCain. I'm voting for Palin.

If you don't mind me asking, is it because you think she's a good candidate or the least bad or for some third reason?

It is because I think she is a great candidate. Obama is a good candidate. McCain is a mediocre candidate. And Biden is a loser.

What in particular led to that conclusion? I guess what I'm going for is what quality she (and possibly Obama, to a lesser extent) possesses that the rest lack that makes you so enthusiastic.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,10:36   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 09 2008,10:09)
dheddle:

 
Quote

It is because I think she is a great candidate.


I think I must have missed something. Actually, to get to great I must have missed a lot, and most of what I didn't miss must be wrong.

I think he must have meant great entertainment.

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,10:41   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 09 2008,10:36)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 09 2008,10:09)
dheddle:

   
Quote

It is because I think she is a great candidate.


I think I must have missed something. Actually, to get to great I must have missed a lot, and most of what I didn't miss must be wrong.

I think he must have meant great entertainment.

Chris Buckley thinks so.
Quote
“The satirist in me cries out for a McCain-Palin administration. This would be an embarrassment of riches,” Christopher Buckley, famed wit and son of William F., tells me. Alas, he’s a reluctant Obamacon — “I think he has a first-class temperament” — even though he fears that a Barack Obama presidency will be “boring.” Trying to cheer himself up, he allows that Joe Biden will probably provide some “comic fodder.”


--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,10:57   

BIG FRIDAY MELTDOWN PLANNED BY PALIN

In honor of Dr. Dr. Dembski and his legendary Friday Meltdowns, we are expecting the release tomorrow of the Troopergate Report from AK.

Please be ready to contribute to the "Sorrow Bouquet" collection that we will start so that we can try to somehow, some way, attempt to console Heddle.


added in edit:  Due to the breakdown of the World Financial Banking System - Thank you Republicans - we will be forced to rely on the barter system.  I will be willing to throw in a Free Cafeteria Pass for Baylor University.



Edited by Lou FCD on Oct. 11 2008,08:25

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,12:05   

Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 09 2008,16:57)
BIG FRIDAY MELTDOWN PLANNED BY PALIN

In honor of Dr. Dr. Dembski and his legendary Friday Meltdowns, we are expecting the release tomorrow of the Troopergate Report from AK.

Please be ready to contribute to the "Sorrow Bouquet" collection that we will start so that we can try to somehow, some way, attempt to console Heddle.


added in edit:  Due to the breakdown of the World Financial Banking System - Thank you Republicans - we will be forced to rely on the barter system.  I will be willing to throw in a Free Cafeteria Pass for Baylor University.

POTW.

Although it wasn't all Republicans. Our Labour party (traditionally the party of the working man.....irony is a bitch) got their snouts in the trough and royally fucked the electorate too. Greed: it's universal.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,12:09   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 09 2008,10:32)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,12:35)
   
Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 09 2008,01:29)
     
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 08 2008,17:37)
But don't ask me about McCain anymore. I don't particularly like McCain. I'm voting for Palin.

If you don't mind me asking, is it because you think she's a good candidate or the least bad or for some third reason?

It is because I think she is a great candidate. Obama is a good candidate. McCain is a mediocre candidate. And Biden is a loser.

What in particular led to that conclusion? I guess what I'm going for is what quality she (and possibly Obama, to a lesser extent) possesses that the rest lack that makes you so enthusiastic.

Hmm.. I can link to some reasons I posted on Ed's blog, where people don't like me very much. I am sooo misunderstood. Good thing my wife is teh hawt, so I don't fret about being unloved!

Some reasons why I like Palin

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,12:29   

I wouldn't say people there dislike you. I would say they think you turn your brain off on topics of religion and politics, and say things which are unintelligent. Lotta people here think that too.

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,12:34   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,12:09)
Hmm.. I can link to some reasons I posted on Ed's blog, where people don't like me very much. I am sooo misunderstood. Good thing my wife is teh hawt, so I don't fret about being unloved!

Some reasons why I like Palin

So, to summarize.

1-4. Smarts and communication skills are overrated. Dumb and inarticulate is just as good.
5. Perkily delivered bromides about American exceptionalism is just what we need*
6. MILFy!
7. You and her worship the same God.
8. You like the way she makes you vibrate**

* Ignoring that you gave that skill away in #2
** Isn't this this just restating #6

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,12:47   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 09 2008,13:34)
6. MILFy!

8. You like the way she makes you vibrate

Well, in Idiocracy, the devolved morons elected a porn star president...

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,12:49   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,18:29)
I wouldn't say people there dislike you. I would say they think you turn your brain off on topics of religion and politics, and say things which are unintelligent. Lotta people here think that too.

Seconded.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,12:50   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 09 2008,18:34)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,12:09)
Hmm.. I can link to some reasons I posted on Ed's blog, where people don't like me very much. I am sooo misunderstood. Good thing my wife is teh hawt, so I don't fret about being unloved!

Some reasons why I like Palin

So, to summarize.

1-4. Smarts and communication skills are overrated. Dumb and inarticulate is just as good.
5. Perkily delivered bromides about American exceptionalism is just what we need*
6. MILFy!
7. You and her worship the same God.
8. You like the way she makes you vibrate**

* Ignoring that you gave that skill away in #2
** Isn't this this just restating #6

Very very seconded.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,12:50   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,18:47)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 09 2008,13:34)
6. MILFy!

8. You like the way she makes you vibrate

Well, in Idiocracy, the devolved morons elected a porn star president...

Wait.....what comes after seconded?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,12:55   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,12:49)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,18:29)
I wouldn't say people there dislike you. I would say they think you turn your brain off on topics of religion and politics, and say things which are unintelligent. Lotta people here think that too.

Seconded.

Louis

Understood. What I can't understand is the definition of "turning off your brain." It seems to be:

We've given you many reasons why we don't like Palin. In spite of all this patient, remedial, free instruction, you refuse to come over to our way of thinking. Your brain must be turned off. QED.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,12:55   

Wow. Intrade's got the Obama/McCain electoral vote split at 364/174 right now. G*****m.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:03   

Well, you can try to make everybody else out as the bad guy, but the impression you give people is that you'd vote for a kangaroo if they taped some bibles to it.

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:05   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,13:03)
Well, you can try to make everybody else out as the bad guy, but the impression you give people is that you'd vote for a kangaroo if they taped some bibles to it.

Busted. That's why I was such a shill for Huckabee.

Oh, wait...

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:07   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,12:55)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,12:49)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,18:29)
I wouldn't say people there dislike you. I would say they think you turn your brain off on topics of religion and politics, and say things which are unintelligent. Lotta people here think that too.

Seconded.

Louis

Understood. What I can't understand is the definition of "turning off your brain." It seems to be:

We've given you many reasons why we don't like Palin. In spite of all this patient, remedial, free instruction, you refuse to come over to our way of thinking. Your brain must be turned off. QED.

Speaking for myself, that is not the case.  It isn't that you don't come around to my way of thinking so much as that you presented such an uncompelling case for your way of thinking.  I will state that my summary of your reasons above did employ a little hyperbole. But very little. Well under 15%.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:12   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,18:55)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,12:49)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,18:29)
I wouldn't say people there dislike you. I would say they think you turn your brain off on topics of religion and politics, and say things which are unintelligent. Lotta people here think that too.

Seconded.

Louis

Understood. What I can't understand is the definition of "turning off your brain." It seems to be:

We've given you many reasons why we don't like Palin. In spite of all this patient, remedial, free instruction, you refuse to come over to our way of thinking. Your brain must be turned off. QED.



Sorry Heddle, you couldn't be more wrong.

I don't have a dog in the hunt, I'm from the UK. Whilst the headship of the world's only superpower is of interest, and I'd prefer a more progressive candidate, even Obama is so far to the right of anything I recognise as a rational politician (oxymoron, I know) that I just have to look on in amazement.

My quibble with you is that you are a smart bloke who not only has fallen for the non-smart approach to politics, but that you are defending the non-smart approach to politics in a non-smart way.

The fact that a) this has been pointed out to you more than once now and b) you repeatedly fail to get it whilst projecting identity politics crap left and right (as others here are doing too btw) indicates to me that you are trying very, very hard not to get it.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:13   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,14:05)
Busted. That's why I was such a shill for Huckabee.

Oh, wait...

James Dobson wasn't a shill for Huckabee either.

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:15   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,13:12)

Hey, Steve. Need another cleanup here. Now someone has cracked into Louis' account and is posting bukkake pictures.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:17   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 09 2008,19:15)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,13:12)

Hey, Steve. Need another cleanup here. Now someone has cracked into Louis' account and is posting bukkake pictures.

Not true. That's wax. See the candles? Why, what did you think it was?

Wait.....explain what bukkake is.

Louis

P.S. teehee.

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:19   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,13:12)
*snip*

My quibble with you is that you are a smart bloke who not only has fallen for the non-smart approach to politics, but that you are defending the non-smart approach to politics in a non-smart way.

The fact that a) this has been pointed out to you more than once now and b) you repeatedly fail to get it whilst projecting identity politics crap left and right (as others here are doing too btw) indicates to me that you are trying very, very hard not to get it.

I do get it--my problem, it would seem, is that i refuse to "get it."

I got that, I promise.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:26   

Louis,

By the way, could you give a nutshell definition of "Identity Politics?"

I'm taking it to mean "voting for people like yourself" of which I plead mostly guilty. I said from the beginning that I'm long past the heartbreak associated with voting on issues. To those who actually believe that Obama will bring "change" or McCain will bring "reform," I say: let me know how that works out.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:27   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,19:19)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,13:12)
*snip*

My quibble with you is that you are a smart bloke who not only has fallen for the non-smart approach to politics, but that you are defending the non-smart approach to politics in a non-smart way.

The fact that a) this has been pointed out to you more than once now and b) you repeatedly fail to get it whilst projecting identity politics crap left and right (as others here are doing too btw) indicates to me that you are trying very, very hard not to get it.

I do get it--my problem, it would seem, is that i refuse to "get it."

I got that, I promise.

Sarcasm: you're not good at it.

Do you realise that as far as I am concerned, Palin, Obama etc i.e. the puppets in the show are utterly irrelevant. What motivates me, and what interests me, are the actual issues underlying the showy stuff. You have, especially in the post on "Dispatches..." you linked explicitly advocated an anti-intellectual position. Whether Palin/Obama/whoever is or isn't an intellectual is of no interest to me. Whether Palin/Obama/whoever is or isn't "experienced" is of no interest to me. It's all part of the charade designed to distract from the issues.

So the thing I take issue with that you are failing to get, and highly ironically STILL failing to get despite your appalling attempt at sarcasm, is not that you should shift your vote from Palin or not (couldn't care less tbh) but that the process by which you have arrived at your vote is profoundly anti-intellectual. I.e. not merely non-intellectual, but as stated directly eschewing any intellectual process.

A second issue is that you accuse others of this visceral superficiality as a kind of projection of your own limited stupidity. Guess what Heddle, not everyone falls into the same traps you have, and not everyone is so arrogant as to pretend that they don't fall into traps at all.

Get it yet?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:28   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,13:13)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,14:05)
Busted. That's why I was such a shill for Huckabee.

Oh, wait...

James Dobson wasn't a shill for Huckabee either.

Not sure the relevance of that--but perhaps it is insight to the fact that necessary does not imply necessary and sufficient.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:37   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,19:26)
Louis,

By the way, could you give a nutshell definition of "Identity Politics?"

I'm taking it to mean "voting for people like yourself" of which I plead mostly guilty. I said from the beginning that I'm long past the heartbreak associated with voting on issues. To those who actually believe that Obama will bring "change" or McCain will bring "reform," I say: let me know how that works out.

Firstly, voting on the issues isn't believing what the candidates say, it's just *slightly* more profound than that. It involves, ohhhhh I don't know, actually trying to understand the issues beyond the soundbite level. I've explained this before and you ignored it. Voting for "reform" or "change" soundbites is as much identity politics as voting for Obama because he's black or McCain because he's a republican.

Secondly, "identity politics". What? The words are too complicated for you? Fair enough. See those silly train and dog pictures people posted above? They're a symptom. It does indeed mean "voting for people mostly like yourself", or perhaps more accurately "voting for people you believe to be like you", at least in part. BTW that's an important distinction, whatever comparisons you make you have no idea if Palin is actually "like you" (for example).

What bothers me about your approach, as well as the approach of others, it's by no means a party political point, is that you have explicitly stated your vote is available to whoever make the best PR appeal to your prejudices. That is explicitly anti-intellectual. And it would be if you were voting for Obama or even a candidate I liked (my political "position" is so far out of what is available in the US or the UK as to be unrepresented). You have (again) expressly stated that you don't vote on the issues (and again, soundbites=/=issues, keep your pathetic straw men to yourself). Is it hard for you to understand that it is your method of deciding who to vote for, rather than who you are voting for, that *I* am taking issue with. What other people are taking issue with is their own business.

Get it now?

Louis

ETA for maths fuck up

--------------
Bye.

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:39   

1-3, 5: I have nothing to say about those.
4: Detailed present knowledge might be overrated, however an INTEREST in the same is not. A distinct lack of the former points to the latter.
6. And I would prefer to be mauled by a cute bear than an ugly one.
7. We simply have to agree to disagree on this one. Appeals to tribalism or a willful suspension of disbelief is not an admirable quality in a political leader IMO.
8. As a matter of principle, I'm not opposed to this point. However, being separated from the action by way of a rather major ocean, the only knowledge of her leadership skills that have filtered through does not exactly make your point. I'm thinking specifically about (as Palin herself later calls it) the rhetorical question of censoring books at the Wasilla library.

As for my own stance, I've never met (or seen or heard) a politician that I didn't harbor a deep rooted distrust for, so I have to admit that the very thought of enthusiasm for a candidate is alien to me.

Edit: I'm with Louis 100% in that the process is interesting and specific choices are not.

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,13:51   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,13:37)
(my political "position" is so far out of what is available in the US or the UK as to be unrepresented).

HA HA THIS IS YOU



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,14:03   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 09 2008,19:51)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,13:37)
(my political "position" is so far out of what is available in the US or the UK as to be unrepresented).

HA HA THIS IS YOU


Guevara was weak. When the revolution comes you'll be the first against the wall and the workers will seize the means of producing Arden's mum. Or something like that.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,14:12   

Quote
SCHADENFREUDE WATCH: HEWITT EDITION.... In 2006, a few months before the midterm elections, conservative blogger/talk-show host Hugh Hewitt published a book on the drive for a "permanent Republican majority." Soon after, Democrats won a sweeping, historic victory, and reclaimed the majority in both chambers.

In 2007, a few months before the primaries, Hewitt published a book on Mitt Romney and the prospects of a "Mormon in the White House." Soon after, Romney blew leads in Iowa and New Hampshire, and withdrew from the presidential race after a surprisingly poor showing.

In 2008, Hewitt has a new idea for a book. It's called, "How Sarah Palin Won the Election ... and Saved America." There's a small problem: no one wants to publish it. According to a report in the New York Observer, Hewitt's literary agent, Curtis Yates, has already given up on selling the book.
Quote
   "The idea was to tell the story behind the effect that Sarah Palin has had on this election and how it is and why it is that she has basically turned the election around for McCain and why it is that she is resonating with so many people in the country," he said. "The intent was to finish the book by a week after the election, and to have it out before the inauguration."

   Was that the plan regardless of who won?

   "The book obviously presumed [a McCain-Palin victory]," Mr. Yates said, "but the theory was that her impact on this election will have a lasting effect regardless -- that she's not gonna go anywhere, that she's just gonna be a figure in G.O.P. politics going forward."
Christopher Orr responded, "Oh, Hugh. If you didn't exist, humorists would have to invent you."

What's more, I think Atrios has the right idea: "They should publish it, and Fox News should just provide a complete alternate reality for its viewers, one in which McCain is president, Obama has been arrested and sent to Gitmo for terrorist activates, Joe Wilson gets indicted, American Carol made a GAZILLION dollars at the box office, etc."


http://washingtonmonthly.com/

   
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,14:17   

(I...type...too...slow...conversation...passes...me...by  :angry: )

Heddle,

I don’t mean to add my baying to the hounds, but, I feel that you are at least using odd reasoning or justification for liking Palin.  I don’t necessarily care that you like Palin because I don’t really disagree with you that politics is emotional.  I think though that you are trying to make logic fit when perhaps just saying, ‘hey, I like her’ is enough.

 
Quote
The reasons I like Palin are as follows:

1) I think the experience issue is overrated. If not, I would not have first supported Obama.


Being as this is an opinion, I don’t really think I can argue too much.  You feel experience isn’t a vital factor, and to a great extent I agree with you.  I do think there is a question of how important the issue is compared to other characteristics of the candidates, but that’s neither here nor there right now.

 
Quote
2) I think the extemporaneous speaking ability is overrated.


Again, as this is your personal opinion, I can’t really speak to this.  You feel that speaking ability isn’t that important and, again, to some extent I agree.  An inability to communicate good ideas does not mean a person is void of good ideas.  However in politics, a cooperative effort, if you cannot communicate clearly, little will be done succesfully, if at all.  Also, such speaking shows that a person can internalize and understand an issue.  Not that they must make decisions alone, but that they can be a part of the dicussion and decision making process as opposed to the mouthpiece.

 
Quote
3) I don't think Palin is dumb, but at any rate I think the IQ contest is overrated. I think IQ in general is overrated.


Two parts here.  Is Palin dumb or not?  (That sounds so 3rd grade playground)  Well, none of us reallly know.  We all have our opinions drawn from observations of her and experiences with others, but we really don’t know for sure.  As to IQ being overrated; true, too much value is placed on a number.  It’s been mentioned before that intelligence alone does not make a good leader, and I think anyone that would try to argue that would be at a loss.  However, I think it would be easier to argue that a capable leader can often be intelligent, in at least some relevant areas.  A person being dismissed as too smart is the opposite side of the coin of the person being dismissed for not being smart enough.  Perhaps they have other qualities that compenstate and should not be dismissed out of hand based solely on an external judgement of intelligence.

 
Quote
4) Present, detailed knowledge is overrated. People don't run into the President's office and say: "There's a new radical faction uncovered in Uzbekistan. Tell us what to do, right now!"


Now, here’s an area where I think you might be setting up a strawman.  You are right that a President shouldn’t have to know each and every faction of each and every country right on day one.  Even the greatest policy wonks (I’ve been wanting to use that phrase for days now) can’t know all of that to expertise level.  However, I do think that a President or Vice President should be able to discuss which major news outlets they consume and show a mastery of (or at least familiarty with) important topics that drive national and international events.  This shows that the are engaged in the national dialogue and not just living in their own echo chamber.

 
Quote
5) A president that makes people feel good about the country is underrated. Reagan could do that. Kennedy could do that. Clinton could do that. Carter and Bush and Bush could not. Palin, I think, can do that.


What about Obama?  Do you think he could make people feel good about the country?  Judging from all of coverage of him, positive and negative, I think it’s hard to argue that he does not instil optimisitic motivitaion in many people across party, race, sex, etc. lines.  I’d say to a much greater extent than Palin does.  Now, I’m not saying that’s enough for me, but just pointing out that if you think Palin can do this thing, it seems to me that Obama would be able to do it to a greater extent.  I do agree that having an inspiration leader is important in terms of uniting a country and working towards high-reaching goals.  But, IMO, Palin is divisive and would not be inspiring.  Even if we ignore the people that would be resentful if Obama lost, her attacks and personality have re-ignitied the partisan divide.  She’s a divider, not a uniter.  Hell, has she even tried to be a uniter?  McCain has tried, to varying degrees of success, but I can’t say I’ve seen anything out of her that looks even remotely like reaching across the aisle.

 
Quote
6) Attractiveness--not physical but overall--call it likeability, is also underrated.


Again, I ask you to compare her to Obama.  People seem to find him attractive, physiclaly and otherwise.  Even people that attack him (specifically excluding racists) don’t paint him as an unlikeable character.  The worst I have seen of his personality is that he can come off as cool or not emotional enough.   I think those accuactions are limited to specific events as opposed to his demeanor as a whole.

Also, how important is likeablity when compared with capabilty?

 
Quote
7) I also think that a President having a sense of something bigger than himself, typically religion, but it could be "the people" is underrated. In Obama's case, I have a sense that he does--and in Palin's case as well. Not with McCain or Biden--especially given the latter's propensity to ring his own bell and talk about himself in the third person.


If you have the sense that both Obama and Palin have this sense, shouldn’t this be a wash?  I know you are listing reasons why you like Palin…but they seem more like justifications than specific qualificaitons that you look for in a person.  Perhaps it is just the way that you are presenting it, and if so my apologies for the confusion.  (As a note, I respect that you allow that this sense does not have to be religion.  That you acknowledge that people can be motiviated to do good for reasons other than religion speaks well of you.)

 
Quote
8) I think good leadership is important and also underrated--the ability to get people to do what you want and have them think it's a good idea. In my opinion, of the four, Palin sends the best vibes as a natural leader, and from what I read of her work as governor she has demonstrated that ability.


I generally agree with the first part of this statement; that good leadership is the ability to get people to go along with your ideas.  However, “your” ideas may not always be best and I think another equally good quality of a leader is the ability to know when your advisors are right and you are wrong.  I don’t get that feeling from Palin.  To be fair, my feeling and your feelings are not evidence so we are both starting from nothing but feeling.  It is my feeling that Obama would listen, really listen to contradictory advice and weigh it accordingly.  I don’t get that from Palin.  Just my opinion.

One last note: As I said to FtK, there are only 2 candidates for President.  John McCain and Barak Obama.  While their VP selection should not be ignored, it is one of those two men who will become President.  They are the ones that should be held up to your metrics and then if you are still unsure, perhaps move on to their VPs.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,14:30   

The House Surge, or whatever McCain called that program he sprung on everyone Tuesday, where the federal government would buy every bad mortgage in america, has anybody calculated how many trillions that would cost?

   
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,14:50   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,14:30)
The House Surge, or whatever McCain called that program he sprung on everyone Tuesday, where the federal government would buy every bad mortgage in america, has anybody calculated how many trillions that would cost?


   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,15:15   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,13:37)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,19:26)
Louis,

By the way, could you give a nutshell definition of "Identity Politics?"

I'm taking it to mean "voting for people like yourself" of which I plead mostly guilty. I said from the beginning that I'm long past the heartbreak associated with voting on issues. To those who actually believe that Obama will bring "change" or McCain will bring "reform," I say: let me know how that works out.

Firstly, voting on the issues isn't believing what the candidates say, it's just *slightly* more profound than that. It involves, ohhhhh I don't know, actually trying to understand the issues beyond the soundbite level. I've explained this before and you ignored it. Voting for "reform" or "change" soundbites is as much identity politics as voting for Obama because he's black or McCain because he's a republican.

Secondly, "identity politics". What? The words are too complicated for you? Fair enough. See those silly train and dog pictures people posted above? They're a symptom. It does indeed mean "voting for people mostly like yourself", or perhaps more accurately "voting for people you believe to be like you", at least in part. BTW that's an important distinction, whatever comparisons you make you have no idea if Palin is actually "like you" (for example).

What bothers me about your approach, as well as the approach of others, it's by no means a party political point, is that you have explicitly stated your vote is available to whoever make the best PR appeal to your prejudices. That is explicitly anti-intellectual. And it would be if you were voting for Obama or even a candidate I liked (my political "position" is so far out of what is available in the US or the UK as to be unrepresented). You have (again) expressly stated that you don't vote on the issues (and again, soundbites=/=issues, keep your pathetic straw men to yourself). Is it hard for you to understand that it is your method of deciding who to vote for, rather than who you are voting for, that *I* am taking issue with. What other people are taking issue with is their own business.

Get it now?

Louis

ETA for maths fuck up

Sorry Louis, I get it but I don’t believe you. To be fair, I believe that you believe your own BS. That is, I think you also vote for people who are like you. It might be that they are for what you are for, and against what you are against. You call it intellectual. I call it pattern matching. Now in my case they are “like me” in different ways. In either case they are like us, or maybe like we want to be, in ways that are important to us.

All politics is local. All politics is identity politics.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,15:29   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,13:12)
Quote
[...]

In 2008, Hewitt has a new idea for a book. It's called, "How Sarah Palin Won the Election ... and Saved America." There's a small problem: no one wants to publish it. [...]

[...]

Dewey wins!!111!!eleven!!!

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,15:33   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,14:30)
The House Surge, or whatever McCain called that program he sprung on everyone Tuesday, where the federal government would buy every bad mortgage in america, has anybody calculated how many trillions that would cost?

I've heard that 700 billion would buy half the outstanding mortgages. Obviously the cheaper half.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,15:40   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,11:05)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,13:03)
Well, you can try to make everybody else out as the bad guy, but the impression you give people is that you'd vote for a kangaroo if they taped some bibles to it.

Busted. That's why I was such a shill for Huckabee.

Oh, wait...

Ah, but Huckabee didn't have that milfy starburst thing going on.

Except probably for Louis.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,16:05   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,21:15)
[SNIP]

Sorry Louis, I get it but I don’t believe you. To be fair, I believe that you believe your own BS. That is, I think you also vote for people who are like you. It might be that they are for what you are for, and against what you are against. You call it intellectual. I call it pattern matching. Now in my case they are “like me” in different ways. In either case they are like us, or maybe like we want to be, in ways that are important to us.

All politics is local. All politics is identity politics.

How convenient!

Sorry Heddle but whether or not you believe me is irrelevant. Projecting your inadequacies onto others is...well...pathetic and certainly no form of rational argument. Dare I say you fail yet again? Your best rejoinder is "you're lying/deluded" with nothing to support it? Wow, that's weak even for you, and I have low expectations when it comes to self deluding fools like yourself.

You have no idea a) how (or even if) I vote, or b) how I select candidates/parties. I know some of you Americans have trouble believing in a world beyond your parochial little concerns, but you'll have to trust that the political game is slightly different here in the UK, at least in terms of the scale of odious identity politics. Simply because YOU cannot conceive of a different method of politics doesn't mean others cannot. Simply because YOU have abrogated your intellectual responsibilities doesn't mean others have.

Try to understand that I utterly eschew the person I am voting for and focus only on the issues. It's explicitly not the same thing as voting for someone "like me", in many cases the person I vote for is nothing "like me" and even may have a considerable number of positions I disagree with. Strangely the evidence based "worldview" (if you chose to use that silly word) applies to politics. As far as is possible one can avoid utterly subjective issues like "agreement" or "likeability". The candidate or party, assuming they are not demonstrably corrupt, is almost totally irrelevant. They are convenient labels which stand for certain issues (ostensibly). Maps of the territory...and what do we know about maps and territory?

It amuses me when you claim to "get it" because you don't understand that I DON'T vote based on who is "against what I am against" or "for what I am for", if I did, you'd be right, but I don't. So no Heddle, not only don't you get it, but you are basically insulting me because you have zero ability to deal with my argument and exposure of your pathetic reliance on anti-intellectual identity politics.

You demonstrably don't understand that someone can try to remove that subjective element (as far as is possible, it's uncontroversially not 100% possible). It's as uncontroversial a claim as the one that, for certain given moral assumptions (i.e. within a defined moral context) one can decide (even calculate) the morality of a given act. It's certainly not beyond a person of your mathematical skills to work out, for example, which party's stated policies will reduce national debt more than another's (if that is your hot button issue).

Trying to claim that because someone selects "national debt" (for example) over "candidate likeableness" (for example) as a voting preference decider all politics reduces to the anti-intellectual tribalism you favour is demonstrably false. First of all the selection is far from purely subjective, one can for example make a strong consequentialist case for the "national debt" selection, i.e. a demonstrable political calculation for a given set of political axioms. I can't achieve 100% subjectiveness free decisions but I can reduce the amount of subjectiveness substantially. And therein lies the difference between our approaches.

You are explicitly saying that because one cannot 100% remove subjectivity from a process that one might as well not try at all. I say this is an abrogation of your intellectual responsibility and that one can try and do so with a great deal of success. I imagine such fatalistic apathy derives, at least in part, from your absurd Calvinist delusions.

The likeableness of a specific politician is, to me, a total irrelevance, and their similarity to me is equally so (ideologically or otherwise). Just like FTK can't grasp the fact that simply because two opposed groups shout loudly about a topic (creationism "vs" evolution) that there isn't necessarily a controversy, and that even if there were a controversy, such a controversy can be decided on the basis of the evidence, you cannot grasp the fact that one can vote based on something other than entirely subjective elements.

I'll try to give you an example even you should be able to grasp: Let's say we were voting for AtBC Physicist. Your name has been put forward. I would judge you on your demonstrable abilities as a physicist, not on the fact that I find you to be intellectually vacuous when outside your narrow specialism. I don't HAVE to like you.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
PTET



Posts: 133
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,16:21   

Totally inappropriate... But she does know how to please a crowd...



--------------
"It’s not worth the effort to prove the obvious. Ridiculous ideas don’t deserve our time.
Even the attempt to formulate ID is a generous accommodation." - ScottAndrews

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,16:21   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,16:05)
*snip* Bidenesque bloviation

I'll try to give you an example even you should be able to grasp: Let's say we were voting for AtBC Physicist. Your name has been put forward. I would judge you on your demonstrable abilities as a physicist, not on the fact that I find you to be intellectually vacuous when outside your narrow specialism. I don't HAVE to like you.

Louis

But we are not voting for a physicist--the example is absurd. We are hiring a physicist this year (anyone interested?) and Sarah Palin need not apply. The VP position has more far more nebulous qualifications. A better analogy would be if we are voting for an AtBC contributor to represent us at a blogging conference where post-economic-collapse bandwidth will be doled out. In which case I'd nominate Dr. GH because I believe he'd kick some serious ass on our behalf. Others might nominate Wes, because he'd be a gentleman and could persuade others to support our vital mission.

Fixed: some typos. May be more, but professorial duty calls.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,16:37   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,22:21)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,16:05)
*snip* Bidenesque bloviation

I'll try to give you an example even you should be able to grasp: Let's say we were voting for AtBC Physicist. Your name has been put forward. I would judge you on your demonstrable abilities as a physicist, not on the fact that I find you to be intellectually vacuous when outside your narrow specialism. I don't HAVE to like you.

Louis

But we are not voting for a physicist--the example is absurd. We are hiring a physicist this year (anyone interested?) and Sarah Palin need not apply. The VP position has more far more nebulous qualifications. A better analogy would be if we are voting for an AtBC contributor to represent us at a blogging conference where post-economic-collapse bandwidth will be doled out. In which case I'd nominate Dr. GH because I believe he'd kick some serious ass on our behalf. Others might nominate Wes, because he'd be a gentleman and could persuade others to support our vital mission.

Fixed: some typos. May be more, but professorial duty calls.

So you ignore the substance of an argument and focus (mistakenly) on the flawed elements of a statedly simplistic analogy, with another insult in place of argument too I note.

Epic fail on your part again Heddle.

The point of the analogy was not that we were voting for a representative or a physicist, but that one can make the decision on who to vote for regardless of the likeableness of the candidate. I'd have thought even you could understand that.

Louis

ETA: I find it more than telling that you defend your anti-intellectual approach to your democratic responsibilities with similarly anti-intellectual lack of argumentation. The fact that you had to edit in your "professorial duties" is amusing. Are you that insecure?

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Bye.

  
Gunthernacus



Posts: 235
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,16:42   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 09 2008,14:51)
 
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,13:37)
(my political "position" is so far out of what is available in the US or the UK as to be unrepresented).

HA HA THIS IS YOU


Coventry City last won the FA Cup in what year?

--------------
Given that we are all descended from Adam and Eve...genetic defects as a result of intra-family marriage would not begin to crop up until after the first few dozen generations. - Dr. Hugh Ross

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,16:46   

Quote (Gunthernacus @ Oct. 09 2008,22:42)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 09 2008,14:51)
 
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,13:37)
(my political "position" is so far out of what is available in the US or the UK as to be unrepresented).

HA HA THIS IS YOU


Coventry City last won the FA Cup in what year?

"Ahhhhhhh the workers control the means of production, um,  the struggle of class against class is a political struggle, the proletariat will rise and over throw the exploitative bourgeoisie......"

(Comrade) Louis

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Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,17:07   

Quote (American Saddlebred @ Oct. 09 2008,15:50)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,14:30)
The House Surge, or whatever McCain called that program he sprung on everyone Tuesday, where the federal government would buy every bad mortgage in america, has anybody calculated how many trillions that would cost?


that is simply great. Post of the Week.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,17:28   

The plan that McCain announced Tuesday night, which baffled even his aides, was to buy up all the distressed mortgages in america, reprice all the homes to today's value, and offer homeowners new terms based on the new value. That plan will never happen. There are 10 million distressed mortgages. The average price of a house is around $200,000. The government would have to spend $2 trillion dollars to buy them all.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,17:46   

I think Huckabee would be a much better president than Palin. He:

*was governor for 11 years, not six months or whatever Palin was.
*His spouse didn't belong to a radical separatist group for years
*Has written several books
*Isn't under an ongoing ethics investigation
*Isn't trying to cover up the results of an ethics investigation
*Is capable of giving a press conference
*Was named one of Time's "Five Best Governors"
*Never (to my knowledge) called Obama a terrorist sympathizer

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,17:55   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 09 2008,16:29)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,13:12)
Quote
[...]

In 2008, Hewitt has a new idea for a book. It's called, "How Sarah Palin Won the Election ... and Saved America." There's a small problem: no one wants to publish it. [...]

[...]

Dewey wins!!111!!eleven!!!

LOL. Hewitt makes "Dewey Wins" look downright reasonable. To approach Hewitt's wrongness, it would have to be something like "Dewey Wins, Is Actually Space Alien, Shot Lincoln"

:D

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,18:16   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,16:37)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,22:21)
     
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,16:05)
*snip* Bidenesque bloviation

I'll try to give you an example even you should be able to grasp: Let's say we were voting for AtBC Physicist. Your name has been put forward. I would judge you on your demonstrable abilities as a physicist, not on the fact that I find you to be intellectually vacuous when outside your narrow specialism. I don't HAVE to like you.

Louis

But we are not voting for a physicist--the example is absurd. We are hiring a physicist this year (anyone interested?) and Sarah Palin need not apply. The VP position has more far more nebulous qualifications. A better analogy would be if we are voting for an AtBC contributor to represent us at a blogging conference where post-economic-collapse bandwidth will be doled out. In which case I'd nominate Dr. GH because I believe he'd kick some serious ass on our behalf. Others might nominate Wes, because he'd be a gentleman and could persuade others to support our vital mission.

Fixed: some typos. May be more, but professorial duty calls.

So you ignore the substance of an argument and focus (mistakenly) on the flawed elements of a statedly simplistic analogy, with another insult in place of argument too I note.

Epic fail on your part again Heddle.

The point of the analogy was not that we were voting for a representative or a physicist, but that one can make the decision on who to vote for regardless of the likeableness of the candidate. I'd have thought even you could understand that.

Louis

ETA: I find it more than telling that you defend your anti-intellectual approach to your democratic responsibilities with similarly anti-intellectual lack of argumentation. The fact that you had to edit in your "professorial duties" is amusing. Are you that insecure?

I didn't ignore the substance of your argument; I couldn't find any. It was all yada, yada, yada.

And my analogy fit better than you give it credit for--there is no "correct" representative, Wes or Dr. GH--but one of them will appeal over the other to each rational AtBC voter. You'll either like Wes's civilized approach, or you'll like Dr. GH's take-no-prisoners approach.

My "professorial duty" edit meant that I had to go teach a class--I teach modeling and sim 5:30-6:45 EST, and I wouldn't be around to respond, immediately, to your subsequent post. This, Your Logic-ness, you take as a sign of "insecurity." What-ever. You've sure got that rational, analytical approach down pat.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,18:18   

Apparently Heddle and Louis are not alone...

I'm sorry. I'll go in sit in the corner and think about what I did.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,18:25   

LOL. Andrew Sullivan:

Quote
09 Oct 2008 06:57 pm
Had About Enough?

David von Drehle in Missouri:
Quote
   "Who do you think will win around here?" I asked. "Obama," Robbie Haggard answered flatly, and several others agreed. "But Missouri's always been Republican," Pyle protested.

   "I think Missouri's had about enough," Holly Haggard said."


Only twice in the last 100 years has the GOP controlled the White House, House, and Senate for 6 consecutive years. Right before the Stock Market Crash / Great Depression, and right before now.

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,18:34   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,18:46)
I think Huckabee would be a much better president than Palin. He:

*was governor for 11 years, not six months or whatever Palin was.
*His spouse didn't belong to a radical separatist group for years
*Has written several books
*Isn't under an ongoing ethics investigation
*Isn't trying to cover up the results of an ethics investigation
*Is capable of giving a press conference
*Was named one of Time's "Five Best Governors"
*Never (to my knowledge) called Obama a terrorist sympathizer

I saw Huckabee (The Daily Show?) and he actually made some sense.  He was firmly 'pro-life', but said that if you're going to require women to bear children you have an obligation to provide financial/social/medical assistance.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,18:40   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,13:12)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,18:55)
 
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2008,12:49)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,18:29)
I wouldn't say people there dislike you. I would say they think you turn your brain off on topics of religion and politics, and say things which are unintelligent. Lotta people here think that too.

Seconded.

Louis

Understood. What I can't understand is the definition of "turning off your brain." It seems to be:

We've given you many reasons why we don't like Palin. In spite of all this patient, remedial, free instruction, you refuse to come over to our way of thinking. Your brain must be turned off. QED.



Sorry Heddle, you couldn't be more wrong.

I don't have a dog in the hunt, I'm from the UK. Whilst the headship of the world's only superpower is of interest, and I'd prefer a more progressive candidate, even Obama is so far to the right of anything I recognise as a rational politician (oxymoron, I know) that I just have to look on in amazement.

My quibble with you is that you are a smart bloke who not only has fallen for the non-smart approach to politics, but that you are defending the non-smart approach to politics in a non-smart way.

The fact that a) this has been pointed out to you more than once now and b) you repeatedly fail to get it whilst projecting identity politics crap left and right (as others here are doing too btw) indicates to me that you are trying very, very hard not to get it.

Louis

So who will you vote for Louis when we get a chance?

Damned if I know. They all (politicians) bug me. Nobody represents what I want. Who will you vote for and how will it not be identity politics?

Serious question and I don't know.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,19:20   

NYTimes headline right now. "Dow plunges below 8600".

Jesus christ. How bad is this going to get? Obama's going to wish he never got elected.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,19:35   

I'm really getting concerned about this. At the moment I make my living as a private math tutor. Nobody's going to pay me $30/hr to help their kid with trig if we go into some kind of economic depression.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,19:36   

Adjusted for inflation, the DJIA has lost 30% since Bush took office.

   
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,20:12   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 09 2008,13:05)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,13:03)
Well, you can try to make everybody else out as the bad guy, but the impression you give people is that you'd vote for a kangaroo if they taped some bibles to it.

Busted. That's why I was such a shill for Huckabee.

Oh, wait...

I could at least understand supporting Huckabee on some level.  He's just as bat-shit crazy/ignorant/god-drenched as Palin but with a sense of humor and the FairTax. Palin ain't got NUTTIN' but the bat-shit crazy/ignorant/god-drenched part.  Plus high heels and tits.  Hmmmm...

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,21:00   

Well, the coverup was unsuccessful. The report on Palin comes out tomorrow. I'll be disappointed if there's nothing juicy in there.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,21:01   

Is this the start of another Great Depression?

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,21:08   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,21:00)
Well, the coverup was unsuccessful. The report on Palin comes out tomorrow. I'll be disappointed if there's nothing juicy in there.

Probably nothing more than the cronyism/abuse of power shenanigans that 8 years of W. have inured us to.  I'm sure that be rethuglicans can spin this so that Palin comes out smelling like a rose, and she will soon go back to her guilt-by-association culture war against the 60's.

Speaking of teh 60's, that venerable rag, Rolling Stone magazine, has a frightening article about Karl Rove in the current issue. The accompanying illustration is worth at least 1000 words, or whatever those are worth on Wall Street these days...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,21:25   

Intrade's now giving Obama 3-1 over McCain and 364 electoral votes. (G*&&@M!). There are 26 days til the election. If some nuclear game changer is going to happen, it better get here.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2008,23:04   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,19:25)
If some nuclear game changer is going to happen, it better get here.

Please. 'Nucular' is the non-elitist pronunciation.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,03:02   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 09 2008,21:04)
Please. 'Nucular' is the non-elitist pronunciation.

Not so, Arden.  It's okay to say 'nuclear' if the teleprompter spells it out for you phonetically.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,03:48   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 10 2008,00:40)
[SNIP]

So who will you vote for Louis when we get a chance?

Damned if I know. They all (politicians) bug me. Nobody represents what I want. Who will you vote for and how will it not be identity politics?

Serious question and I don't know.

Good question.

At this point in time I don't know. I'm discussing something with an economist friend of mine (who is generously teaching me basic economics) which should help me to decide between certain policies.

Watching Question Time last night I was shocked to hear Tories spouting what amounted to socialism, so it would seem my choice isn't going to be made easier!

I read Hansard (which is pretty dull) and Lords Hansard once a week (more if I get the chance or if there is something I am particulalry keen on). The main Hansard page is quite useful. I also check out how MP's vote here and other places.

It doesn't take a lot of effort, commonly a couple of hours a week, more if there's something I'm really interested in (civil liberties, education, science funding, secularism etc). The reason I'm trying to learn something about economics at the moment is because I self confessedly know little about it, and with all the economic turmoil around at the moment I want to be able to distinguish between candidates/parties/policies on an economic basis.

When it gets to election time I tend to rank candidates/parties (the way the whip works here you can't always distinguish between the two) according to those criteria (voting record, comments in Hansard etc). And lest anyone think that this is mere identity politics with more effort, there are (for example) issues (like science funding levels etc) which have a demonstrably positive effect on society as a whole (obviously this involves some reading about history etc). Like I said, it ain't easy at the start, but it gains momentum, after all history ain't going anywhere!

And for the record all politicians bug me too. I'm relatively firmly convinced that if one desires power this should disqualify one!

As I said at the start, who I'll vote for is something I'm not certain about, but for the general election I'm leaning liberal democrat/green at the moment, local elections are a different bag. However, voting for those people presents its own problems, the honest answer is I don't know just now. Historically I've voted across the political spectrum, and also not voted at all. The labour party have disappointed me, some of their policies have been excellent but the baggage those have come with outweighs that. In a "lesser of two (many) evils" situation like ours, we don't have the free choice we might like. BTW free choice/proportional representation is something I campaign for. I'm not overly concerned about party politics, I think the system itself needs changing.

Like science, politics is something we can find out about. It's ok not to know or not to be certain, and it's ok to investigate. Why a) deliberately abrogate one's responsibilities or b) plumb for some certainty or dogma when, as ever, the devil lies in the detail?

I appreciate this approach isn't for everyone, but a simple admission of it is sufficient. Take computer science for example: I know sweet fuck all about it. I can't even write a basic script, let alone programme. I know a bit about the physics of computers and how to use certain bits of software, but other than that: nada. Not only do I admit it, but I admit that any opinions I might have about computer topics (like for example tracing IP addresses etc) are based only on my ignorance. Hence I tend not to bother having an opinion. The reason I bothered to learn anything about politics/history/philosophy is because I had opinions I wanted to check out. I've had to change those opinions more often than not, based on the evidence.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,03:52   

Quote (Wolfhound @ Oct. 10 2008,02:12)
[SNIP]

...high heels and tits...

[SNIP]

YAY!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,03:58   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 09 2008,21:01)
Is this the start of another Great Depression?

I told my students last night they'll be able to bore their grandkids with comments about how pampered they are and stories about living through the greatest depression. They laughed. A little.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,07:03   

Sometimes David Brooks gets it right. His analysis of the culture-war bludgeon that Sarah Palin brings to the campaign ends with this  
Quote
Palin is smart, politically skilled, courageous and likable. Her convention and debate performances were impressive. But no American politician plays the class-warfare card as constantly as Palin. Nobody so relentlessly divides the world between the “normal Joe Sixpack American” and the coastal elite.

She is another step in the Republican change of personality. Once conservatives admired Churchill and Lincoln above all — men from wildly different backgrounds who prepared for leadership through constant reading, historical understanding and sophisticated thinking. Now those attributes bow down before the common touch.

And so, politically, the G.O.P. is squeezed at both ends. The party is losing the working class by sins of omission — because it has not developed policies to address economic anxiety. It has lost the educated class by sins of commission — by telling members of that class to go away.


--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,08:53   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 10 2008,07:03)
Sometimes David Brooks gets it right. His analysis of the culture-war bludgeon that Sarah Palin brings to the campaign ends with this  
Quote
Palin is smart, politically skilled, courageous and likable. Her convention and debate performances were impressive. But no American politician plays the class-warfare card as constantly as Palin. Nobody so relentlessly divides the world between the “normal Joe Sixpack American” and the coastal elite.

She is another step in the Republican change of personality. Once conservatives admired Churchill and Lincoln above all — men from wildly different backgrounds who prepared for leadership through constant reading, historical understanding and sophisticated thinking. Now those attributes bow down before the common touch.

And so, politically, the G.O.P. is squeezed at both ends. The party is losing the working class by sins of omission — because it has not developed policies to address economic anxiety. It has lost the educated class by sins of commission — by telling members of that class to go away.

When you try to appeal to the FTK's of the world, you get what you asked for - uneducated masses that are happy to wallow in their ignorance and sneer at "the elites" (anyone that actually knows more than they do).

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,10:45   

And from the "There's the apple, where the hell is the tree?" department:

A gift to y'all.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,13:10   

Outside of normal business hours, I indulge in graphic design. Particularly poster design.

Using that medium, here are some of the best at their craft: 30 Reasons

The are downloadable in PDF form to print and display. The first (October 5th) is my personal favorite so far.

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"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,13:31   

Well, the Board in AK is meeting as we write... It will take a majority, but the board has 8 Republicans and only 4 Dems.

Why does Christmas Trooper-gate Report Release take so long to arrive ??!!!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,13:34   

Christopher Buckley, about his decision to vote for Obama:

Quote
I am—drum roll, please, cue trumpets—making this announcement in the cyberpages of The Daily Beast (what joy to be writing for a publication so named!) rather than in the pages of National Review, where I write the back-page column. For a reason: My colleague, the superb and very dishy Kathleen Parker, recently wrote in National Review Online a column stating what John Cleese as Basil Fawlty would call “the bleeding obvious”: namely, that Sarah Palin is an embarrassment, and a dangerous one at that. She’s not exactly alone. New York Times columnist David Brooks, who began his career at NR, just called Governor Palin “a cancer on the Republican Party.”

As for Kathleen, she has to date received 12,000 (quite literally) foam-at-the-mouth hate-emails. One correspondent, if that’s quite the right word, suggested that Kathleen’s mother should have aborted her and tossed the fetus into a Dumpster. There’s Socratic dialogue for you. Dear Pup once said to me sighfully after a right-winger who fancied himself a WFB protégé had said something transcendently and provocatively cretinous, “You know, I’ve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks.” Well, the dear man did his best. At any rate, I don’t have the kidney at the moment for 12,000 emails saying how good it is he’s no longer alive to see his Judas of a son endorse for the presidency a covert Muslim who pals around with the Weather Underground. So, you’re reading it here first.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a....r-obama

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,13:50   

Former Repub senator Lincoln Chafee is voting for Obama

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,13:58   

Quote
Chafee said he has spoken with several other moderate Republican leaders, and "there are a whole lot of us deserting."


Well, yeah. Intelligent, moderate republicans like you are RINO elitists. Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,14:21   

From the Borowitz Report: Palin blasts Obama for his ties to the Weather Channel!  
Quote
"It may sound like she spouting idiocy, but there's a method to her madness," said Tracy Klugian, a Republican strategist.  "She's speaking to her base."


--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,14:34   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 10 2008,14:21)
From the Borowitz Report: Palin blasts Obama for his ties to the Weather Channel!    
Quote
"It may sound like she spouting idiocy, but there's a method to her madness," said Tracy Klugian, a Republican strategist.  "She's speaking to her base."

I knew it!

That explains this.

Grr... only antichrist would mess with the weather like this. Go get 'im, Sarah.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,14:38   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 10 2008,15:21)
From the Borowitz Report: Palin blasts Obama for his ties to the Weather Channel!  
Quote
"It may sound like she spouting idiocy, but there's a method to her madness," said Tracy Klugian, a Republican strategist.  "She's speaking to her base."

Quote
Gov. Palin's latest attacks came on the heels of a new poll showing that the only demographic group that still support her are morons, sometimes referred to by political insiders as "no-information voters."


LOL

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,14:56   

Sullivan:

Quote
What Rove never realized is that many of us fought hard for intellectual and moral respect for conservatism in college and grad school, only to have our efforts turned into a joke by the crassness of the Party Of Rove. There were only a few self-described conservatives at Harvard when I was there, and I spent a great deal of time losing friends, breaking up dinners, offending professors because I was a) right of center and b) obviously academically serious. And now I'm supposed to defend Sarah Palin? As vice-president? I mean: seriously?


http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,15:01   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 10 2008,20:56)
Sullivan:

Quote
What Rove never realized is that many of us fought hard for intellectual and moral respect for conservatism in college and grad school, only to have our efforts turned into a joke by the crassness of the Party Of Rove. There were only a few self-described conservatives at Harvard when I was there, and I spent a great deal of time losing friends, breaking up dinners, offending professors because I was a) right of center and b) obviously academically serious. And now I'm supposed to defend Sarah Palin? As vice-president? I mean: seriously?


http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/

[FTK+Heddle]

He's obviously a Bidenesque elitist RINO scumbag.

[/FTK+Heddle]

Yawn, when's this farce over so the world can get back to standard dullness as opposed to whiny partisan anti-intellectual dullness?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,15:06   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 10 2008,16:01)
Yawn, when's this farce over so the world can get back to standard dullness as opposed to whiny partisan anti-intellectual dullness?

Approximately 26 days from now, Americans will elect a Dem to be president, more dems for the house, and more dems for the senate, and the Right gets to go back to saying "Durr...what happened...durr...dang ol libral media...durrr...terrist durr...Jesus...durr..."

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,15:15   

[Louis + Erasmus, FCD]
I wouldn't know, since I am not even a RINO.
[/Louis + Erasmus, FCD]

I hate when that happens.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,16:27   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 10 2008,21:15)
[Louis + Erasmus, FCD]
I wouldn't know, since I am not even a RINO.
[/Louis + Erasmus, FCD]

I hate when that happens.

Tsk tsk Heddle you're meant to put words *I* might say in those captions.

Geez the standards of admission to academic positions in the states must be low nowadays. I know you've abandoned any pretence of dealing with politics (and religion and ...) intellectually, but I expected you could at least read and write.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,17:36   

You won't be laughing in 4 years when Heddle makes a fortune selling "Palin/Bible-Roo '12" bumper stickers.

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,17:47   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 10 2008,21:01)
Yawn, when's this farce over so the world can get back to standard dullness as opposed to whiny partisan anti-intellectual dullness?

Don't fret Louis, here's something you can vote for

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,17:57   

Quote
McCain's attacks fuel dangerous hatred

By Frank Schaeffer
   October 10, 2008


Schaeffer's a former McCain supporter.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news....1.story

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,18:03   

Obsidian Wings: The GOP's Sorcerer's Apprentice Problem.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,18:36   

Obama is an Arab Terrorist?

http://www.time-blog.com/swampla....ve.html

Quote
October 10, 2008 6:23
McCain Denounces Pitchfork-Wavers
Posted by Ana Marie Cox | Comments (69) | Permalink | Trackbacks (0) | Email This

Here in Lakeville, the traveling press was pretty sure we'd see more of the kind of vicious anti-Obama attitude that's becoming a hallmark of McCain rallies of late.

As the town hall started, McCain was off with more pep than usual. Making the same old jokes, but with energy that reminded us of "the old McCain." But would he use his power for good or evil? An audience member teed up a great big softball that could totally hit a dark side home run, asking, "We want you to fight at your next debate... we want to see s REAL fight at the debate, we want a STRONG leader for the next four years." That is Minnesota nice for "RevWrightACORNAyers," etc.

But then something weird happens: He acknowledges the "energy" people have been showing at rallies, and how glad he is that people are excited. But, he says, "I respect Sen. Obama and his accomplishments." People booed at the mention of his name. McCain, visibly angry, stopped them: "I want EVERYONE to be respectful, and lets make sure we are."

The very next questioner tried to push back on this request, noting that he needed to "tell the American the TRUTH about Barack Obama" -- a not very subtle way, I think, to ask John McCain to NOT tell the truth about Barack Obama. McCain told her there's a "difference between record and rhetoric, and I plan to talk about his record, respectfully... I don't mean that has to reduce your ferocity, I just mean it has to be respectful."

And then later, again, someone dangled a great big piece of low-hanging fruit in front of McCain: "I'm scared to bring up my child in a world where Barack Obama is president."

McCain replies, "Well, I don't want him to be president, either. I wouldn't be running if I did. But," and he pauses for emphasis, "you don't have to be scared to have him be President of the United States." A round of boos.

And he snaps back: "Well, obviously I think I'd be better. "

Of course, this is kind of the best of both world: Crazy base-world gets to bring up Ayers and whatever else, really, and he gets to say, "Be respectful." But I think he means it.

UPDATE: Indeed, he just snatched the microphone out the hands of a woman who began her question with, "I'm scared of Barack Obama... he's an Arab terrorist..."

"No, no ma'am," he interrupted. "He's a decent family man with whom I happen to have some disagreements."


Good for McCain for somewhat standing up to the raving morons in his audience.


   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,19:05   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 10 2008,16:36)
Obama is an Arab Terrorist?

http://www.time-blog.com/swampla....ve.html

 
Quote
October 10, 2008 6:23
McCain Denounces Pitchfork-Wavers
Posted by Ana Marie Cox | Comments (69) | Permalink | Trackbacks (0) | Email This

Here in Lakeville, the traveling press was pretty sure we'd see more of the kind of vicious anti-Obama attitude that's becoming a hallmark of McCain rallies of late.

As the town hall started, McCain was off with more pep than usual. Making the same old jokes, but with energy that reminded us of "the old McCain." But would he use his power for good or evil? An audience member teed up a great big softball that could totally hit a dark side home run, asking, "We want you to fight at your next debate... we want to see s REAL fight at the debate, we want a STRONG leader for the next four years." That is Minnesota nice for "RevWrightACORNAyers," etc.

But then something weird happens: He acknowledges the "energy" people have been showing at rallies, and how glad he is that people are excited. But, he says, "I respect Sen. Obama and his accomplishments." People booed at the mention of his name. McCain, visibly angry, stopped them: "I want EVERYONE to be respectful, and lets make sure we are."

The very next questioner tried to push back on this request, noting that he needed to "tell the American the TRUTH about Barack Obama" -- a not very subtle way, I think, to ask John McCain to NOT tell the truth about Barack Obama. McCain told her there's a "difference between record and rhetoric, and I plan to talk about his record, respectfully... I don't mean that has to reduce your ferocity, I just mean it has to be respectful."

And then later, again, someone dangled a great big piece of low-hanging fruit in front of McCain: "I'm scared to bring up my child in a world where Barack Obama is president."

McCain replies, "Well, I don't want him to be president, either. I wouldn't be running if I did. But," and he pauses for emphasis, "you don't have to be scared to have him be President of the United States." A round of boos.

And he snaps back: "Well, obviously I think I'd be better. "

Of course, this is kind of the best of both world: Crazy base-world gets to bring up Ayers and whatever else, really, and he gets to say, "Be respectful." But I think he means it.

UPDATE: Indeed, he just snatched the microphone out the hands of a woman who began her question with, "I'm scared of Barack Obama... he's an Arab terrorist..."

"No, no ma'am," he interrupted. "He's a decent family man with whom I happen to have some disagreements."


Good for McCain for somewhat standing up to the raving morons in his audience.


I'm not sure I'd call it that.

I think all that happened is he saw that (a) it wasn't doing shit for him in the polls, (b) it was getting him bad publicity and c) there was a very real chance some wingnut loon at one of Palin's Nuremburg rallies might flip out and do some illegal act that would make McCain look very bad.

I think if McCain thought he could beat Obama by calling him a terrorist for another 4 weeks with no negative consequences, he wouldn't hesitate to do so.

I think the real question is, will PALIN quit calling Obama a terrorist? I wouldn't put it past McCain to pompously quit doing that to make it look like he was taking the high road, but to have Palin keep doing it like nothing happened. This is the main who kept commercials going while he 'suspended his campaign', and who STILL has commercials going in Michigan, after he 'pulled out' there.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,19:29   

Palin abused power - official! :)


--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,19:50   

that explains why the "Sarah Palin to be withdrawn as Republican VP nominee/candidate before 2008 presidential election" contract on Intrade jumped from 3.5 to 10 today.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,20:00   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 10 2008,17:50)
that explains why the "Sarah Palin to be withdrawn as Republican VP nominee/candidate before 2008 presidential election" contract on Intrade jumped from 3.5 to 10 today.

By now I almost hope McCain keeps her just to make sure he well and truly tanks.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,20:31   

The United States of Arugula

There might be something to his argument. For instance, I'm in BFE Florida and next weekend I'm planting some arugula seedlings in my garden.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,21:20   

So, where do we send the flowers for Heddle?

And in other news - I got to give McCain at least a

little credit.  I saw a clip tonight where he actually corrected some old mouth-breathing lady at on e of his rtallys that said she didn't trust Obama - "He's an arab"!

MCCain corrrected her and said, no, Obama is a decent man, just one he has disagreements with.   Too bad his attempt to do the right thing is probably too late to affect the election for him.  

If he would have selected a real VP, and blasted the hate-filled right and O'Reilly, Limbaugh and the DaveScots of the world, he might have made a race of it.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,21:29   

Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 10 2008,22:20)
And in other news - I got to give McCain at least a

little credit.  I saw a clip tonight where he actually corrected some old mouth-breathing lady at on e of his rtallys that said she didn't trust Obama - "He's an arab"!

MCCain corrrected her and said, no, Obama is a decent man, just one he has disagreements with.   Too bad his attempt to do the right thing is probably too late to affect the election for him.

yeah, she called him an Arab Terrorist. McCain disagreed with her. Maybe he has better impulse control than I do. I'd have said "Are you a F&%$ing moron?"

EDITAD FOR TEH GRAMMARS

Edited by stevestory on Oct. 10 2008,22:31

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,21:42   

Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 10 2008,22:20)
If he would have selected a real VP, and blasted the hate-filled right and O'Reilly, Limbaugh and the DaveScots of the world, he might have made a race of it.

The problem is those people are now the GOP base. I honestly don't know how the GOP will deal with them.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,23:38   

I think McCain is indeed trying to have it both ways:

 
Quote

From NBC's Mark Murray
Earlier today, Obama remarked on recent outbursts of "Traitor!" "Terrorist!" and "Kill him!" at McCain campaign events. "It's easy to rile up a crowd," Obama said. "Nothing's easier than riling up a crowd by stoking anger and division. But that's not what we need right now in the United States."

In response, McCain senior adviser Nicolle Wallace released this statement, NBC's Kelly O'Donnell reports. "Barack Obama's assault on our supporters is insulting and unsurprising. These are the same people obama called 'bitter' and attacked for 'clinging to guns' and faith. He fails to understand that people are angry at corrupt practices in Washington and Wall Street and he fails to understand that America's working families are not 'clinging' to anything other than the sincere hope that Washington will be reformed from top to bottom."

"Attacking our supporters is a new low for the campaign that's run more millions of dollars of negative ads than any other in history."

*** UPDATE *** McCain campaign spokesman Brian Rogers adds in another statement: “Barack Obama’s attacks on Americans who support John McCain reveal far more about him than they do about John McCain. It is clear that Barack Obama just doesn’t understand regular people and the issues they care about. He dismisses hardworking middle class Americans as clinging to guns and religion, while at the same time attacking average Americans at McCain rallies who are angry at Washington, Wall Street and the status quo."


In other words, he wants the votes he gets from getting the crazies berserk with hate, but he also wants people to vote for him 'cuz he's a nice man who doesn't do negative campaigning.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,23:39   

Quote
The Republicans have alienated whole professions. Lawyers now donate to the Democratic Party over the Republican Party at 4-to-1 rates. With doctors, it’s 2-to-1. With tech executives, it’s 5-to-1. With investment bankers, it’s 2-to-1. It took talent for Republicans to lose the banking community.


This David Brooks column is fantastic. The GOP turned anti-intellectual, and is now suffering the consequences.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2008,23:50   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 10 2008,21:39)
 
Quote
The Republicans have alienated whole professions. Lawyers now donate to the Democratic Party over the Republican Party at 4-to-1 rates. With doctors, it’s 2-to-1. With tech executives, it’s 5-to-1. With investment bankers, it’s 2-to-1. It took talent for Republicans to lose the banking community.


This David Brooks column is fantastic. The GOP turned anti-intellectual, and is now suffering the consequences.

You know what's the most remarkable thing about what some of these Republicans are now saying? The fact that when liberals/democrats said the same things in 2002-2004, we were called 'traitors' and told we 'hated America'.

I remember the GOP accusing anyone who disliked Bush of being a traitor. Now 80% of America dislikes Bush. Are 80% of Americans now traitors? Or if not, when did the rule change?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,00:05   

About the same time they switched from accusing the Dems of "class warfare" to accusing the Dems of being "arugula eating cosmopolitan elitists".

The GOP has always consisted of several distinct factions. What's happening at the moment is the intellectual conservatives, like Brooks, Doug Kmiec, Andrew Sullivan, Jeffrey Hart, etc are realizing that the anti-intellectual christianist faction has gotten into the driver's seat.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,00:18   

I'm kinda amazed that gas prices haven't had more of an effect. Every other car I see here in BFE Florida is a big 4x4 truck. I wonder if any of these people understand that gas isn't going back to $1/gallon ever.

   
sledgehammer



Posts: 533
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,00:28   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 11 2008,00:05)
What's happening at the moment is the intellectual conservatives, like Brooks, Doug Kmiec, Andrew Sullivan, Jeffrey Hart, etc are realizing that the anti-intellectual christianist faction has gotten into the driver's seat.


... and is about to run the GOP bus off the road into the ditch.

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2561
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,02:37   

Quote
By now I almost hope McCain keeps her just to make sure he well and truly tanks.

He has to keep her.  If he ditches her now, it's an admission of diabolically poor judgement (how long ago was the Republican convention?), and looks like he's panicking.  He'll also have to pick someone with similar political views, otherwise he'll loose the base.  And that's almost all he has left.

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,08:36   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 11 2008,00:05)
About the same time they switched from accusing the Dems of "class warfare" to accusing the Dems of being "arugula eating cosmopolitan elitists".

The GOP has always consisted of several distinct factions. What's happening at the moment is the intellectual conservatives, like Brooks, Doug Kmiec, Andrew Sullivan, Jeffrey Hart, etc are realizing that the anti-intellectual christianist faction has gotten into the driver's seat.

But if they'd have taken a real look at their party at any time in the last 20 years, they would have already realized that.  So, shame on them.  But, better late than never, I guess.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,08:39   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 11 2008,00:18)
I'm kinda amazed that gas prices haven't had more of an effect. Every other car I see here in BFE Florida is a big 4x4 truck. I wonder if any of these people understand that gas isn't going back to $1/gallon ever.

Well, gas in Kansas City, MO is $2.85 (which seems like free).  I'm not one who cottons to conspiracy theories at all, but for those who do, I'm sure that's putting their panties in a twist.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
dhogaza



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,13:28   

Quote
And in other news - I got to give McCain at least a

little credit.

Not really.  His denunciation of the extreme rhetoric didn't come until *after* some prominent Republican ex-McCain supporters went public with their disgust at his campaign's pandering to the worst of the base.  One went so far as to suggest that McCain was, essentially, endangering Obama's personal safety.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,14:16   

Quote (dhogaza @ Oct. 11 2008,14:28)
Quote
And in other news - I got to give McCain at least a

little credit.

Not really.  His denunciation of the extreme rhetoric didn't come until *after* some prominent Republican ex-McCain supporters went public with their disgust at his campaign's pandering to the worst of the base.  One went so far as to suggest that McCain was, essentially, endangering Obama's personal safety.

In Ohio, the McCain campaign is running ads saying Obama associated with "Terrorist Ayers" "then lied about it".

That's not 'exactly' calling Obama a terrorist, but it's damn close.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,18:03   

Washington Monthly on the Trooper Report

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,18:26   

with only 3 weeks and 3 days til the election, i wonder what the last haily mary will be.

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,18:47   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 11 2008,18:26)
with only 3 weeks and 3 days til the election, i wonder what the last haily mary will be.

Connecting Obama to Willie Horton within six steps?  Possibly via Kevin Bacon?

Or...Palin rips off the mask, Scooby Doo style, and is revealed to be Hillary in disguise.  Voters so admire the chutzpa of her actions they sweep her and McCain into office in a landslide.

Maybe not...

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,23:24   

Quote
As governor, Palin at times links church, state

Records show she used taxpayer money to promote religious causes

WASILLA, Alaska - The camera closes in on Sarah Palin speaking to young missionaries, vowing from the pulpit to do her part to implement God's will from the governor's office.

What she didn't tell worshippers gathered at the Wasilla Assembly of God church in her hometown was that her appearance that day came courtesy of Alaskan taxpayers, who picked up the $639.50 tab for her airplane tickets and per diem fees.

An Associated Press review of the Republican vice presidential candidate's record as mayor and governor reveals her use of elected office to promote religious causes, sometimes at taxpayer expense and in ways that blur the line between church and state.

Since she took state office in late 2006, the governor and her family have spent more than $13,000 in taxpayer funds to attend at least 10 religious events and meetings with Christian pastors, including Franklin Graham, the son of evangelical preacher Billy Graham, records show.

etc etc etc

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2008,23:36   

Quote
By: Hilzoy

And Speaking Of Incoherent Policy...

No sooner did I finish my last post than I found this, from Politico:
Quote
"As part of a plan to reinvigorate his flagging campaign, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) is considering additional economic measures aimed directly at the middle class that are likely to be rolled out this week, campaign officials said.

Among the measures being considered are tax cuts -- perhaps temporary -- for capital gains and dividends, the officials said."
Because what everyone is really worried about right now is how they'll manage to pay the taxes on their massive capital gains.


Isn't there some kind of Mercy Rule we can invoke? This is getting embarrassing....ETA: Linky

Edited by stevestory on Oct. 12 2008,00:37

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2008,02:05   

Quote
Polls Show Obama Lead Growing

Day to Day, October 1, 2008 · Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama has gained a 7-point lead over Republican rival John McCain in the wake of their first presidential debate, according to a new poll from the Pew Research Center.


Sounds great, right? Well, a friend just decided to give me acid reflux by emailing me this, from Oct 5, 2000:

Quote
Tracking poll: Gore may be opening solid lead -- with a caveat

By CNN Polling Director Keating Holland

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Thursday's CNN/USA Today/Gallup tracking poll indicates that Vice President Al Gore may be opening a solid lead over Texas Gov. George W. Bush, after nearly two weeks of neck-and-neck competition. Today's figures -- 51 percent for Gore to 40 percent for Bush -- represents a significant margin for the vice president.


http://archives.cnn.com/2000....ex.html

So now I'm all dyspeptic. That's disturbing to read. There's four reasons to not get too depressed about that though. One, Obama's state-by-state numbers look better than Gore's did. Obama's got a good chance in a number of states Gore didn't, like NC and Colorado. Two, Gore did in the end have more votes than Bush, and if they'd been distributed a little differently he would have won. Three, the incumbent party looks much worse at the moment than the Clinton administration did. Four, Bush was more likeable at the time than McCain is now, and the press really stomped on Gore in Oct 2000 for his sighing and pedantic tone in the debates.

Still, I profess to being a little uncomfortable to read that history.

   
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2008,02:27   

Another hint for people to visit 30 Reasons.

I am not affiliated in any way. I just like posters. These all have a particular message and a new one appears each day until November 4th.

Here's my favorite:



--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2561
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2008,02:40   

Five - that was only a single poll.  Clicking through the dates:
1: Bush 45, Gore 45
2: Bush 45, Gore 45
3: Bush 44, Gore 46
4: No poll
5: Bush 40, Gore 51
6: Bush 44, Gore 51
7: Bush 48, Gore 41
8: Bush 49, Gore 41
9: Bush 50, Gore 42
10: Bush 47, Gore 44
11: Bush 45, Gore 45

So that looks like an outlier.  At present, all the pools are showing an Obama lead, and have been consistently.

So no need to panic yet. You can do that when Biden quits tomorrow, to be replaced by k.e.

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2008,10:13   

Good catch Bob.

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2008,10:19   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Oct. 12 2008,02:40)
So no need to panic yet. You can do that when Biden quits tomorrow, to be replaced by k.e.

I don't know.  "A penis gourd in every nightstand" is a great campaign slogan.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2008,14:12   

The 'Obama is a Terrorist' ads are still running. And McCain never 'suspended his campaign'. One can only conclude that McCain is a lying sack of shit.

That's fine. One week of 'Obama is a Terrorist' ads caused BO's numbers to go up 2-3 points nationally, and he hasn't lost a single state.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2008,14:28   

The wingnuts seem to be road-testing a post-election meme of "it was all McCain's fault". I suspect we'll be hearing a lot of that this winter.

And of course, they have nothing better to say for the time being than "Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko".

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2008,19:38   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 12 2008,14:28)
The wingnuts seem to be road-testing a post-election meme of "it was all McCain's fault". I suspect we'll be hearing a lot of that this winter.

And of course, they have nothing better to say for the time being than "Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko Ayers Rezko".

Working to solve problems is WAAAAYYYYY harder than complaining about problems unsolved.  An apathetic electorate gets the party of the people.  Fortunately, it looks as if the electorate is somewhat educable.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2008,20:21   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 12 2008,15:28)
The wingnuts seem to be road-testing a post-election meme of "it was all McCain's fault". I suspect we'll be hearing a lot of that this winter.

I Really Really Really want this meme to dominate the GOP. So that in 2012 they go hardcore fundie and run a Palin/Bible-Roo ticket and get megacrushed. Then maybe the'll ditch the idiots.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2008,20:27   

BTW, whoever wrote that article is a total moron.

   
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2008,23:29   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 12 2008,18:21)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 12 2008,15:28)
The wingnuts seem to be road-testing a post-election meme of "it was all McCain's fault". I suspect we'll be hearing a lot of that this winter.

I Really Really Really want this meme to dominate the GOP. So that in 2012 they go hardcore fundie and run a Palin/Bible-Roo ticket and get megacrushed. Then maybe the'll ditch the idiots.

For fun, google Palin Huckabee 2012 and see how many hits you get.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,00:21   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 12 2008,18:21)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 12 2008,15:28)
The wingnuts seem to be road-testing a post-election meme of "it was all McCain's fault". I suspect we'll be hearing a lot of that this winter.

I Really Really Really want this meme to dominate the GOP. So that in 2012 they go hardcore fundie and run a Palin/Bible-Roo ticket and get megacrushed. Then maybe the'll ditch the idiots.

Andrew Sullivan has some thoughts along those lines, but instead of the GOP ditching the wingnuts, he sees the sane people ditching the GOP, leaving a Christianist "George Wallace rump":
Quote
The reason the economy is playing differently among Southern Baptists may surely be that many are voting primarily on religious, cultural and theological grounds.

The economy is irrelevant compared with religious identity. What this campaign may be doing is stripping most secular Republicans and independents from the GOP coalition. We could be left with a purely sectarian-Christianist rump, which will control the GOP for a generation. And McCain will have distilled Rove's religious coalition in eight weeks more effectively than Bush in eight years!

What we may be seeing is all the dangerous trends I identified in "The Conservative Soul: Fundamentalism, Freedom and the Future Of The Right" being brought to faster and more potent fruition by the combination of an economic crisis, a black Democratic candidate and a far-right Christianist unknown like Palin. It is as if the McCain-Palin campaign is acting as a purgative of moderate or centrist Republicanism in this atmosphere. What this could portend is that the GOP could become reduced to a George Wallace rump - even more than it now is. And from that scorched piece of earth, it will be much harder to recover in the short or medium run.

How ironic that Bush and Rove would truly find their reductio ad absurdum in the wreckage of John McCain's "honor." But how fitting in a way. Even McCain drowns in the wave of bigotry and fear these people unleashed for their own short-term advantage. Even McCain.


--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,00:43   

There's definitely that. The christianists seem to be on the upsurge, and the intellectual conservatives are already struggling mightily to convince themselves to stay on board. It might become a hardcore christianist party for a while. But that won't last. Why not? Because there aren't enough christianists alone to win. And political parties who lose for a while tend to ditch whatever ideas are causing them to lose. I remember when the Democrats wouldn't shut up about gun control. Now they hardly ever talk about gun control. Because it just wasn't winning. A GOP which goes hardcore christianist will lose for several years, and thereby be forced to change.

In the meantime, Palin/BibleRoo 2012!



Go BibleRoo! beat up that Terrorist Arab Muslim President Obama!

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,02:16   

Bill Kristol now says the McCain campaign, with 3 weeks to go, should junk their entire campaign and start anew. Why, O why, did my beloved NYT hire this Idiot?

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,02:20   

I don't know if I can stomach any fraction of my $$ going to Kristol. Maybe I can get my gf to subscribe instead, which would totally ameliorate my support.

(In case that was too subtle: Davetard, you're a moron)

   
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,03:17   

Rare out-of-natural-habitat DaveTard sighting:
       
Quote
303  DaveScot

skeptic

From

http://www.uscis.gov/portal....90aRCRD

*If you were born before November 14, 1986, you are a citizen if your U.S. citizen parent lived in the United States for at least 10 years and 5 of those years in the United States were after your citizen parent’s 14th birthday.

Back to the drawing board. Obamama didn’t qualify.

Dave has found a blog where commenters are even dumber than those at UD (don't ask me) and decides to try it on for size.

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.†We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.â€
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
PTET



Posts: 133
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,05:24   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 13 2008,02:16)
Bill Kristol now says the McCain campaign, with 3 weeks to go, should junk their entire campaign and start anew. Why, O why, did my beloved NYT hire this Idiot?

Comedy value I think. Kristol is comically wrong about practically everything... Although he did pick out Sarah Palin as the ideal running mate for McCain back in June...

--------------
"It’s not worth the effort to prove the obvious. Ridiculous ideas don’t deserve our time.
Even the attempt to formulate ID is a generous accommodation." - ScottAndrews

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,08:23   

Quote
Bob O.H,

*snip*
You can do that when Biden quits tomorrow, to be replaced by k.e.

If Biden quits  and is replaced by k.e., I'll switch my vote. k.e. is the only potential VP candidate cooler that Sarah Palin.

DPH, VIP (Vote Identity Politics)
Self Appointed President, JanineTurner2012

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,08:42   

dheddle: How does one vote for a VP?

1. Vote on the presidential candidate hoping he/she croaks before his/her term in office is over?
2. Vote for the VP directly?
3. ?
4. Profit!

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,09:00   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 13 2008,08:42)
dheddle: How does one vote for a VP?

1. Vote on the presidential candidate hoping he/she croaks before his/her term in office is over?
2. Vote for the VP directly?
3. ?
4. Profit!

The same way one votes for President. It's like this:

I'll be in the polling line after 72 ACORN registrants. Which won't take long, because that means just one actual body. Let's just hope its one of the rare living members of the human species registered by ACORN, and not a corpse, a cat (they are notoriously slow creatures when it comes to voting), or a Bohemian mine worker. I won't be wearing a Palin button, for fear of encountering enlightened, intellectual, educated, non-Identity-Voters such as these.

When I  get to the ballot, it will read something along the lines of "Electors for President and Vice President of the United States" and one of the choices will be John McCain (Arizona) and Sarah Palin (Alaska). I'll mark that one.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,09:10   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,09:00)
The same way one votes for President. It's like this:

I'll be in the polling line after 72 ACORN registrants. Which won't take long, because that means just one actual body.

You know Dave, for someone who spends as much time as you do over at Ed Brayton's tree fort, you seem rather impervious to the various ACORN posts he has made.  Or is Ed just part of the conspiracy?

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,09:19   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 13 2008,09:10)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,09:00)
The same way one votes for President. It's like this:

I'll be in the polling line after 72 ACORN registrants. Which won't take long, because that means just one actual body.

You know Dave, for someone who spends as much time as you do over at Ed Brayton's tree fort, you seem rather impervious to the various ACORN posts he has made.  Or is Ed just part of the conspiracy?

Yeah, I'm still waiting for a verified case of actual voter fraud (where a vote was cast) to be detailed.

Anybody know?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,09:23   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 13 2008,09:10)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,09:00)
The same way one votes for President. It's like this:

I'll be in the polling line after 72 ACORN registrants. Which won't take long, because that means just one actual body.

You know Dave, for someone who spends as much time as you do over at Ed Brayton's tree fort, you seem rather impervious to the various ACORN posts he has made.  Or is Ed just part of the conspiracy?

I didn't read any of Ed's posts on ACORN. I didn't even think about ACORN much until the last week. I've been following the links from Drudge to various reports. And today, while at the gym at 0-dark-hundred-hours, I saw an interview with some high-level ACORN muckity-muck in which she said, with a straight face, that ACORN can be both non-partisan and yet endorse Obama.

Teh stupid...it hurts so much...

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,09:26   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,15:00)
When I  get to the ballot, it will read something along the lines of "Electors for President and Vice President of the United States" and one of the choices will be John McCain (Arizona) and Sarah Palin (Alaska). I'll mark that one.

Does that mean #1? ;)

Quote

FACT: The number of middle fingers in a "progressive" crowd is directly proportional to the number of PhD degrees in the ten-block radius.

FACT: Islamic radicals would be more welcome on the Upper West Side than American patriots.

The "liberals" always extend their sympathy for being bullying and rejected... not to the American patriots... but to America's enemies.

"Liberal" elites believe that all ideologies are morally equal... except the one that supports capitalism and individual liberties... ... the only ideology that makes their lavish lifestyles possible. ... and so they're driving it out of town, tarred and feathered.

Republicans in New York: less equal than others.

When leftist politicians are promising you to bridge the divide... ... they are "selling you a bridge."

The leftist idea of unity is, and has always been... THE ELIMINATION OF DISSENT


Seriously though, that video is pretty lame. Jeering and suggestive gestures = nazi germany or throwing people to the lions? No matter your ideology, that type of hyperbole is just silly. Did you even watch the whole thing?

I'm studying for the midterms atm, so it provided a welcome distraction from the only uninteresting math class I've ever taken.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,09:26   

Article about ACORN:

Quote

“Rumors of Acorn’s voter fraud have been greatly exaggerated and to a large extent manufactured,” Bertha Lewis, the organization’s interim chief organizer, or chief executive, said Monday in a conference call to announce that the organization had registered 1.3 million people to vote.

Ms. Lewis said it was Acorn itself that informed state officials about some questionable registrations collected by its employees that are now under investigation. Acorn said it had terminated the workers involved.


Hmmm, an organization that turns in miscreant employees... no wonder it seems completely antithetical to the Republican Party.

Marc Ambinder:

Quote

Now -- "rampant" might not be the best adjective. Voter registration cards aren't the property of ACORN or any other group, and ACORN is required by law to turn in every completed form -- even if they're obviously fraudulent. ACORN insists it has procedures in place to flag these forms, but you can't blame supervisors of elections from throwing up their hands when they come in.


That post quotes an ACORN press release that makes good reading. It also notes that some of the election supervisors making a fuss are using examples of incorrect registration forms that were flagged by ACORN as suspect when they were turned in.

Of course, signing loads of underrepresented people up to vote is the very opposite of Republican Party strategy for over two decades. The RP effort to deprive people who undergo foreclosure is both repulsive and ironic, as McCain seemed to be pimping himself to the group of citizens who are victims of predatory mortgage practices.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,09:38   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,09:23)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 13 2008,09:10)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,09:00)
The same way one votes for President. It's like this:

I'll be in the polling line after 72 ACORN registrants. Which won't take long, because that means just one actual body.

You know Dave, for someone who spends as much time as you do over at Ed Brayton's tree fort, you seem rather impervious to the various ACORN posts he has made.  Or is Ed just part of the conspiracy?

I didn't read any of Ed's posts on ACORN.

Hint: Maybe you should.

Hint #2: You might also want to read some of the Michigan Messenger articles he references regarding voter suppression efforts in Michigan.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,09:44   

There has never been a single documented case of "extra registrations" actually leading to extra votes. On the other hand, the popular republican tactic of purging voter registrations does cause real people not to vote.

I especially like their latest attempt to purge a WWII war hero with 10 medals of honor. That certainly backfired.

And allowing groups that do voter registrations to pick and choose which ones they send in is defiantly a greater potential for fraud. What happens when you get a group who decides all minorities are obviously fake and doesn't turn them in? ACORN can and does flag suspect registrations for the state to investigate, but they cannot choose not to turn them in on their own.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,11:55   

Bristol Palin's baby daddy has dropped out of high school.

I'm sure some Palin supporters will be happy. It doesn't get any less Elitist than dropping out of high school.

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,12:00   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,15:00)
[SNIP]

I won't be wearing a Palin button, for fear of encountering enlightened, intellectual, educated, non-Identity-Voters such as these.

[SNIP]

Awwwww sweeeetie, did oo get oor feewings hurt?

Suck it up! Pouting and passive aggressive snidiness doesn't suit you, you're supposedly a grown man.

[John Cleese voice]

Identity politics is an abrogation of democratic responsibility NO MATTER WHO DOES IT. Even, and I want to make this absolutely clear, if they do agree with me.

[/John Cleese voice]

Are you perhaps too stupid to understand the difference between objecting to HOW a person decides their vote and objecting to WHO that vote is cast for? It seems to me that someone intelligent would have the basic reading comprehension to understand the repeated (and well stated) different styles of objection.

Now are you going to stop pouting and engage in the discussion in an adult manner?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,12:04   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 13 2008,17:55)
Bristol Palin's baby daddy has dropped out of high school.

I'm sure some Palin supporters will be happy. It doesn't get any less Elitist than dropping out of high school.

I feel really sorry for these kids. Teenage parents are in hard place in modern society anyway, and these kids are in the public spotlight also. In a way, McCain/Palin losing the election would be a bonus for these kids as the crazy media spotlight moves to its next victim.

I also hate the way they are being used by both the media and the candidates. It stinks.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,12:13   

Davetard says:

Quote
In any case, if McCain is polling behind Obama in the final week before Nov. 4th, they’re likely going to blast Obama’s refusal to provide the public with school records, birth certificates, and passport and foreign travel history among other things across every television screen in every battleground state. Rumor has it the RNC has documented proof that Obama isn’t qualified but they’re keeping it to themselves as long as possible and hopefully forever but not if that means losing the election. It’s their ace-in-the-hole to be turned over only if absolutely necessary

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,12:36   

"My friends, we’ve got them just where we want them."

-John McCain, today, 10/13/2008

Link

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,12:41   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 13 2008,12:36)
"My friends, we’ve got them just where we want them."

-John McCain, today, 10/13/2008

Link

Less family friendly translation: "We are going to keep hitting his foot with our asses until it is a bloody stump!"

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,12:44   

louis

been wanting to ask you, since you favor 'considering the issues', by what process does one come to a conclusion about any given issue?  Do you consider these sorts of questions (e.g., do I favor 47th trimester abortions?) to be legitimate questions (in the consensus usage of the word, a la the endless hours we have spent beating skeptic about the head and ears with 'that is not a legitimate question')?

it seems to me that if these questions are not legitimate questions, then we are reduced to identity as the motivating agent for giving a damn in the first place.

if these questions are indeed legitimate (in that same sense) then I am curious to see how you resolve the plurality of answers to these questions, often diametrically opposed to other answers.  if, as i suspect, answers are predicated on vastly differing assumptions, then I can't see but how that undermines the notion that issue based questions are legitimate objective questions.  hence we return to identity motivation.

I'm just glad Heddle admits it's a narcissist popularity contest for him, most voters are not that self-aware to recognize that nor be comfortable with that conclusion.

oh yeah and davetard is a complete moron.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
EyeNoU



Posts: 115
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,12:45   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 13 2008,12:13)
Davetard says:

Quote
In any case, if McCain is polling behind Obama in the final week before Nov. 4th, they’re likely going to blast Obama’s refusal to provide the public with school records, birth certificates, and passport and foreign travel history among other things across every television screen in every battleground state. Rumor has it the RNC has documented proof that Obama isn’t qualified but they’re keeping it to themselves as long as possible and hopefully forever but not if that means losing the election. It’s their ace-in-the-hole to be turned over only if absolutely necessary

Hey, Dave, what if there aren't any "battleground states" by then?

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,12:48   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 13 2008,12:13)
Davetard says:

Quote
In any case, if McCain is polling behind Obama in the final week before Nov. 4th, they’re likely going to blast Obama’s refusal to provide the public with school records, birth certificates, and passport and foreign travel history among other things across every television screen in every battleground state. Rumor has it the RNC has documented proof that Obama isn’t qualified but they’re keeping it to themselves as long as possible and hopefully forever but not if that means losing the election. It’s their ace-in-the-hole to be turned over only if absolutely necessary

"Rumor has it" LOL!! An authoritative-sounding statement that is totally bereft of authority -- you can just make shit up and plaster "rumor has it" on the front and it's true! It IS a rumour! It's my rumour, that I, ah, just made up, but so what, it meets the minimal standards of veracity required of rumor, i.e, none whatsoever.

This particular rumor has much dumb. If the RNC had any such evidence they would be briefing it at a press conference as we speak. DT lives in a fantasy world; the occasional sand up his buttcrack is his only reminder of Reality.

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,12:58   

Two competing hypotheses:

1 Barack is running for president without being qualified. The birth announcement in the paper 40 some years ago is bogus, his birth certificate is forged, and these facts are being covered up by election officials, Democratic Party officials, Hawaii hospital employees and state government workers, the national media, and FactCheck.org. Furthermore, the GOP has shocking evidence of this, and is keeping quiet despite the fact that it looks like they face an epic loss in 3 weeks.

2 Barack's birth certificate and birth announcement are legit.

How stupid do you have to be to select hypothesis #1?

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,13:02   

Quote (EyeNoU @ Oct. 13 2008,12:45)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 13 2008,12:13)
Davetard says:

   
Quote
In any case, if McCain is polling behind Obama in the final week before Nov. 4th, they’re likely going to blast Obama’s refusal to provide the public with school records, birth certificates, and passport and foreign travel history among other things across every television screen in every battleground state. Rumor has it the RNC has documented proof that Obama isn’t qualified but they’re keeping it to themselves as long as possible and hopefully forever but not if that means losing the election. It’s their ace-in-the-hole to be turned over only if absolutely necessary

Hey, Dave, what if there aren't any "battleground states" by then?

Indeed, and I suspect that is why the UDers are hanging their hopes on a conspiracy theory.  When you look at the state-by-state projections, and grant each candidate the states where they have a 10% or greater lead, you see that Obama has 235 solid electoral votes (out of 270 needed) and McCain only 131. McCain has to pretty much win every other state to have a chance of winning.  When you see Obama getting endorsed by prominent conservatives, you gotta wonder if there is anything at all McCain can do to pull this out.

Don't believe me?

8 years ago:



Today:



QED

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,13:33   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 13 2008,13:58)
Two competing hypotheses:

1 Barack is running for president without being qualified. The birth announcement in the paper 40 some years ago is bogus, his birth certificate is forged, and these facts are being covered up by election officials, Democratic Party officials, Hawaii hospital employees and state government workers, the national media, and FactCheck.org. Furthermore, the GOP has shocking evidence of this, and is keeping quiet despite the fact that it looks like they face an epic loss in 3 weeks.

2 Barack's birth certificate and birth announcement are legit.

How stupid do you have to be to select hypothesis #1?

In what units is stupid measured?

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,13:43   

Quote (khan @ Oct. 13 2008,13:33)
In what units is stupid measured?

It is measured in Dembskis.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,13:43   

It appears that there is, oh, a 99% chance that "change" is coming and a 1% chance that "reform" is coming.

I don't believe either. I'll stick to good 'ole divinely inspired scripture. There's nothing new under the sun.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,13:49   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 13 2008,13:43)
Quote (khan @ Oct. 13 2008,13:33)
In what units is stupid measured?

It is measured in Dembskis.

Actually I think the Dembski is a measure of error.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,14:07   

Quote
October 13, 2008

SPEAKING OF ABUSES OF POWER.... An independent investigation in Alaska, just three days ago, found that Sarah Palin violated the public trust when she abused the powers of her office. You'd think, given this reality, she'd be cautious on the subject.

But, no. Introducing McCain at an event in Virginia this morning, Palin told the crowd, "See, as a senator, John has confronted the corrupt ways of Washington and the wasteful spending and the abuses of power. As president, he's gonna end those once and for all."

Does Palin really want to talk about confronting abuses of power right now?

The report, which Palin loves but apparently hasn't read, specifically reads, "For the reasons explained in section IV of this report, I find that Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39.52.110(a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act." [emphasis added]

As Greg Sargent noted, "Whoever didn't cut that line from her speech today is either incompetent or very, very brazen."
—Steve Benen 2:50 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (1)


http://washingtonmonthly.com/

I think it's brazenness. Palin's on record telling a couple dozen straight up lies, so whoever supports her at this point just doesn't give a crap about reality. They've got their own.

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,14:19   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 13 2008,13:49)
 
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 13 2008,13:43)
 
Quote (khan @ Oct. 13 2008,13:33)
In what units is stupid measured?

It is measured in Dembskis.

Actually I think the Dembski is a measure of error.

Oh, that's right. I forgot.

But there are other worthy candidates whose name could serve as the eponymous unit of "stupid"...

DaveScots? Palins? Scordovas? Actually, it is likely that none of those are stupid. They are just venal.

I'd support the "luskin" as the name for a unit of stupid.

Any other nominees?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,14:21   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 13 2008,14:19)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 13 2008,13:49)
   
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 13 2008,13:43)
   
Quote (khan @ Oct. 13 2008,13:33)
In what units is stupid measured?

It is measured in Dembskis.

Actually I think the Dembski is a measure of error.

Oh, that's right. I forgot.

But there are other worthy candidates whose name could serve as the eponymous unit of "stupid"...

DaveScots? Palins? Scordovas? Actually, it is likely that none of those are stupid. They are just venal.

I'd support the "luskin" as the name for a unit of stupid.

Any other nominees?

In the abstract, I like using the Luskin as a measure of stupid, but I have a visceral dislike of any unit of measure who's maximum value is 1.   ;)

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,14:24   

Maybe the Luskin could be a measure of saying things which aren't true while actually seeming to believe them.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,14:26   

How a "McCain Comeback" narrative could arise simply because it would give the media something fresh.

   
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,14:27   


   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,14:32   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,19:43)
It appears that there is, oh, a 99% chance that "change" is coming and a 1% chance that "reform" is coming.

I don't believe either. I'll stick to good 'ole divinely inspired scripture. There's nothing new under the sun.

I think you enjoy playing the little contrarian a little bit too much since the only thing you're actually doing is drive-by linking and little to no discussion.

Do you stand by the text in the video you linked? Do you consider booing and rude gestures the same as throwing people to wild animals and/or murdering them by the millions?

Here's my take on the people that made the video: How fucking sheltered does one have to be to make comparisons like that? Utterly pathetic.

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,14:46   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 13 2008,14:32)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,19:43)
It appears that there is, oh, a 99% chance that "change" is coming and a 1% chance that "reform" is coming.

I don't believe either. I'll stick to good 'ole divinely inspired scripture. There's nothing new under the sun.

I think you enjoy playing the little contrarian a little bit too much since the only thing you're actually doing is drive-by linking and little to no discussion.

Do you stand by the text in the video you linked? Do you consider booing and rude gestures the same as throwing people to wild animals and/or murdering them by the millions?

Here's my take on the people that made the video: How fucking sheltered does one have to be to make comparisons like that? Utterly pathetic.

I don't know what your point is. Nor does the quote seem to match your comment. I don't "stand by" anything in that video other than the fact that it proves there are jackasses on both sides of the aisle. Obama supporters can be as rude, stupid, belligerent, ignorant, and crass as lowlifes from other groups. That was my point.

steve s often produces tiny posts which just link to a story --which I think is fine. Curious, though, do you accuse him of drive-by linking?

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,14:56   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,20:46)
I don't know what your point is. Nor does the quote seem to match your comment. I don't "stand by" anything in that video other than the fact that it proves there are jackasses on both sides of the aisle. Obama supporters can be as rude, stupid, belligerent, ignorant, and crass as lowlifes from other groups. That was my point.

People are assholes, is that supposed to be news to anyone?

There's posting links and then there's posting links and ignoring the ensuing discussion, don't you think?

 
Quote (Video @ Youtube)

FACT: The number of middle fingers in a "progressive" crowd is directly proportional to the number of PhD degrees in the ten-block radius.

FACT: Islamic radicals would be more welcome on the Upper West Side than American patriots.

The "liberals" always extend their sympathy for being bullying and rejected... not to the American patriots... but to America's enemies.

"Liberal" elites believe that all ideologies are morally equal... except the one that supports capitalism and individual liberties... ... the only ideology that makes their lavish lifestyles possible. ... and so they're driving it out of town, tarred and feathered.

Republicans in New York: less equal than others.

When leftist politicians are promising you to bridge the divide... ... they are "selling you a bridge."

The leftist idea of unity is, and has always been... THE ELIMINATION OF DISSENT


The above is text from the video. What do you think of it?

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,15:17   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 13 2008,12:56)
There's posting links and then there's posting links and ignoring the ensuing discussion, don't you think?

   
Quote (Video @ Youtube)

FACT: The number of middle fingers in a "progressive" crowd is directly proportional to the number of PhD degrees in the ten-block radius.

FACT: Islamic radicals would be more welcome on the Upper West Side than American patriots.

The "liberals" always extend their sympathy for being bullying and rejected... not to the American patriots... but to America's enemies.

"Liberal" elites believe that all ideologies are morally equal... except the one that supports capitalism and individual liberties... ... the only ideology that makes their lavish lifestyles possible. ... and so they're driving it out of town, tarred and feathered.

Republicans in New York: less equal than others.

When leftist politicians are promising you to bridge the divide... ... they are "selling you a bridge."

The leftist idea of unity is, and has always been... THE ELIMINATION OF DISSENT


The above is text from the video. What do you think of it?

Wow.  Seven paragraphs, and six unsupported assertions (interpeting the fourth paragraph as one multi-part assertion, and the sixth paragraph as blustering rhetoric rather than an assertion).  

That's 0.86 DaveScots.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,15:30   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 13 2008,18:44)
louis

been wanting to ask you, since you favor 'considering the issues', by what process does one come to a conclusion about any given issue?  Do you consider these sorts of questions (e.g., do I favor 47th trimester abortions?) to be legitimate questions (in the consensus usage of the word, a la the endless hours we have spent beating skeptic about the head and ears with 'that is not a legitimate question')?

it seems to me that if these questions are not legitimate questions, then we are reduced to identity as the motivating agent for giving a damn in the first place.

if these questions are indeed legitimate (in that same sense) then I am curious to see how you resolve the plurality of answers to these questions, often diametrically opposed to other answers.  if, as i suspect, answers are predicated on vastly differing assumptions, then I can't see but how that undermines the notion that issue based questions are legitimate objective questions.  hence we return to identity motivation.

I'm just glad Heddle admits it's a narcissist popularity contest for him, most voters are not that self-aware to recognize that nor be comfortable with that conclusion.

oh yeah and davetard is a complete moron.

Good question.....and one I've already answered to some extent. Steve Elliot asked me this so, with reference to my little segment of the universe, the UK, I answered.

Here!

As for your "47th trimester abortion" straw man, sorry 'Ras but if you're going to act the twat, expect to be treated like one. If you really think that an issue like abortion can be reduced ONLY to identity politics then there's no hope of conversation with you.

As for your implication that I'm not comfortable with admitting my political choices could be based on identity politics alone: WRONG! Epic fail of straw men yet again.  Not only do I admit it, I work bloody hard to avoid it happening. The point is that of course this is possible, one can never 100% eliminate subjectivity in some of these issues. BUT on some other issues we can eliminate most, if not all, of the subjectivity (unless one wants to play silly sophist games like the IDCIsts).

The trick is to try to understand just what sort of questions get useful answers, and how we can establish whether any of the potential answers differ from the others on a rational, evidence oriented basis. Take abortion as a great example of this: we can (for example) demonstrate with great accuracy when the foetus has a nervous system sufficient to feel pain, we have a great deal of information about how making abortion illegal does little more that drive abortion underground and usually dangerous. If people stay away from the muddying of the waters by vested interests and actually try to solve a problem honestly (say for example how it's done in science) then progress is made. Of course that progress is slow, but it's an observable historical fact.

If you're asking about the philosophy/epistemology of decisions, then you can dig out the endless reams of detail I've already written about this very topic.

Louis

ETA: Oh yeah, by the way, your wanky accusations of people's "religion like faith" in politics is highly ironic in the face of your utter refusal to investigate it rationally. Don't get me wrong, I share your scepticism and cynicism about politics in general, and my own in specific detail. I just don't agree that that scepticism should be cause for inaction.

Further ETA: Read my signature. Really. I'm amazed at how many people miss the very sincere sentiments contained within. There's a reason it has never yet needed changing.

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,15:37   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 13 2008,14:56)
       
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,20:46)
I don't know what your point is. Nor does the quote seem to match your comment. I don't "stand by" anything in that video other than the fact that it proves there are jackasses on both sides of the aisle. Obama supporters can be as rude, stupid, belligerent, ignorant, and crass as lowlifes from other groups. That was my point.

People are assholes, is that supposed to be news to anyone?

There's posting links and then there's posting links and ignoring the ensuing discussion, don't you think?

         
Quote (Video @ Youtube)

FACT: The number of middle fingers in a "progressive" crowd is directly proportional to the number of PhD degrees in the ten-block radius.

FACT: Islamic radicals would be more welcome on the Upper West Side than American patriots.

The "liberals" always extend their sympathy for being bullying and rejected... not to the American patriots... but to America's enemies.

"Liberal" elites believe that all ideologies are morally equal... except the one that supports capitalism and individual liberties... ... the only ideology that makes their lavish lifestyles possible. ... and so they're driving it out of town, tarred and feathered.

Republicans in New York: less equal than others.

When leftist politicians are promising you to bridge the divide... ... they are "selling you a bridge."

The leftist idea of unity is, and has always been... THE ELIMINATION OF DISSENT


The above is text from the video. What do you think of it?

I don't agree with six out of seven. However, the last one strikes a chord. The Obama campaign has indeed displayed a tendency, alarming to this libertarian-leaning citzen, to go after media that are presenting views they don't like. They sicced the blood-sucking-lawyers, who rather frighteningly brought up the third-rail "license" threat, on stations that aired the NRA ad. And they use email lists for intimidation purposes, encouraging folks to call radio stations that are airing a view they aren't fond of. On that issue they are real assholes, and had this come out before the Biden pick and the FISA and campaign finance flip-flops, that would have been sufficient for me to drop my support.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,15:48   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,15:37)
And they use email lists for intimidation purposes, encouraging folks to call radio stations that are airing a view they aren't fond of. On that issue they are real assholes, and had this come out before the Biden pick and the FISA and campaign finance flip-flops, that would have been sufficient for me to drop my support.

OMFG! They are encouraging people to speak their minds to the media? Can the Republic stand in the face of such an assault on the people's right to quietly go along with whatever the media serves up?  Next thing you know they will be encouraging people to write letters to the editors of newspapers! Where will this infamy end? Oh, teh horror!!!!

Added in Edit: Dave, what do you think of the McCain campaign writing fake letters to the editor?  Will you drop your support of them now?  Didn't think so.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,15:50   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,21:37)
Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 13 2008,14:56)
       
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,20:46)
I don't know what your point is. Nor does the quote seem to match your comment. I don't "stand by" anything in that video other than the fact that it proves there are jackasses on both sides of the aisle. Obama supporters can be as rude, stupid, belligerent, ignorant, and crass as lowlifes from other groups. That was my point.

People are assholes, is that supposed to be news to anyone?

There's posting links and then there's posting links and ignoring the ensuing discussion, don't you think?

           
Quote (Video @ Youtube)

FACT: The number of middle fingers in a "progressive" crowd is directly proportional to the number of PhD degrees in the ten-block radius.

FACT: Islamic radicals would be more welcome on the Upper West Side than American patriots.

The "liberals" always extend their sympathy for being bullying and rejected... not to the American patriots... but to America's enemies.

"Liberal" elites believe that all ideologies are morally equal... except the one that supports capitalism and individual liberties... ... the only ideology that makes their lavish lifestyles possible. ... and so they're driving it out of town, tarred and feathered.

Republicans in New York: less equal than others.

When leftist politicians are promising you to bridge the divide... ... they are "selling you a bridge."

The leftist idea of unity is, and has always been... THE ELIMINATION OF DISSENT


The above is text from the video. What do you think of it?

I don't agree with six out of seven. However, the last one strikes a chord. The Obama campaign has indeed displayed a tendency, alarming to this libertarian-leaning citzen, to go after media that are presenting views they don't like. They sicced the blood-sucking-lawyers, who rather frighteningly brought up the third-rail "license" threat, on stations that aired the NRA ad. And they use email lists for intimidation purposes, encouraging folks to call radio stations that are airing a view they aren't fond of. On that issue they are real assholes, and had this come out before the Biden pick and the FISA and campaign finance flip-flops, that would have been sufficient for me to drop my support.

So by that token "the left" is all about suppression of dissent?

Wow, who knew? Obama's campaign group, probably Obama himself, do something stupid: Therefore all people on the "left" of some fictional political line are keen to suppress dissent.

By any definition you'd recognise Heddle I am so far to the "left" of Obama as to be unrecognisable, I not only support dissent, I encourage it. I am so liberal on social issues it hurts! Not only do I want the government out of our private lives I want proportional representation, many referenda, and a whole swathe of changes to the political system of the UK that would make political office an unpleasant civil service job rather than a route to company boardrooms. All of which absolutely require dissent.

Strange, not only are the asinine slurs hurled at Obama/Palin/McCain/Biden/Left/Right more often than not untrue, they are also irrelevant. You are being fooled, and trying very very hard to remain fooled. Incidentally, this doesn't surprise me. There is one way to hold politicians to account....it's been done before. I wonder how many people have forgotten what it is.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,15:54   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,16:37)
And they use email lists for intimidation purposes, encouraging folks to call radio stations that are airing a view they aren't fond of.



the horror...the horror....

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,15:59   

dheddle:

Quote

And they use email lists for intimidation purposes, encouraging folks to call radio stations that are airing a view they aren't fond of.


David, did the Phylogenists list never include discussion of making sure IDC advocates were represented in call-ins to radio talk shows taking up evolution and "intelligent design" creationism issues, or other ways of coordinating "grass roots" responses online or in the media? Or did you tell them that they too were being "real assholes" for using an email list in that way?

Personally, I don't see what the problem is in using email as an effective organizational tool. But maybe I'm misreading what point was being made originally. Can you clarify that?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,16:02   

dangit. Carlsonjok beat me.

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,16:02   

Calling radio stations! The nerve! They should just sit and listen to conservative hate radio tell them they should all be shot like good little sheep.

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,16:09   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 13 2008,16:02)
dangit. Carlsonjok beat me.

HA HA THIS IS YOU



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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,16:11   

I am completely unfamiliar with these email lists. Were they about voicing opinions or simply punishing the media outlets by drowning them in form emails?

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,16:31   

Recommended.

For instance.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,16:49   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 13 2008,15:59)
dheddle:

 
Quote

And they use email lists for intimidation purposes, encouraging folks to call radio stations that are airing a view they aren't fond of.


David, did the Phylogenists list never include discussion of making sure IDC advocates were represented in call-ins to radio talk shows taking up evolution and "intelligent design" creationism issues, or other ways of coordinating "grass roots" responses online or in the media? Or did you tell them that they too were being "real assholes" for using an email list in that way?

Personally, I don't see what the problem is in using email as an effective organizational tool. But maybe I'm misreading what point was being made originally. Can you clarify that?

Of course it is just my opinion, but I find it unsavory that campaign email lists are used, for example in the case Sanley Kurtz, not just to voice displeasure but in an attempt to have his comments (connecting Obama to Ayers) go unaired. I see that as substantively different than citizens, on their own initialtive, calling a station to voice displeasure.

And I would be consistent about this. If the McCain campaign used its mailing list to pressure a station into canceling an appearance by a left-leaning investigative reporter, I'd be just as outraged.

In that circumstance, would everyone here be just as blasé?

Color me skeptical.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,17:28   

Hinderaker Wins Golden Wingnut Award Again.

Appropriate timing, too, since Krugman just won the Nobel for his New Trade Theory stuff.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,18:42   

David,

If they were advocating prior restraint, yes, I'm against that. If you can give me a link to a news article laying that out, I'd be happy to make a blog post registering that complaint.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,18:59   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 13 2008,18:42)
David,

If they were advocating prior restraint, yes, I'm against that. If you can give me a link to a news article laying that out, I'd be happy to make a blog post registering that complaint.

Here is a link to the Kurtz instance.

If you Google juicy excerpts from the campaign email, you can find more accounts of the same incident. For example, this one.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,19:38   

Quote
If you want an indication that the McCain camp has conceded...

13 Oct 2008 08:52 am
.... listen to this interview, from today's NPR Morning Edition (audio available after 9am EDT). In it, Renee Montagne questions Steve Schmidt, famed tough-guy, gloves-off strategist for the McCain campaign.

schmidt.jpgAnyone who has ever been near a troubled campaign -- or a sports team late in a losing game, or a business venture facing harsh reality -- will instantly recognize the signs of internalized defeat in Schmidt's comments:

Rationalization and excuses ("We were ahead until the financial crisis began"). More excuses ("We have the handicap of wearing the 'R' label this year" -- I mean, think about that for a moment, and imagine Karl Rove saying it). More and more excuses ("When someone says something inappropriate at our rallies, the media is all over it. When someone does it at an Obama rally...")  A "we'll do our best" tone as opposed to confidence about being able to win. A rote quality to the pep talk about victory ("Senator Obama is known as a weak closer, and Senator McCain is a strong finisher!"). These quotes are approximate, a few minutes after hearing the spot, but true to the spirit. Given Schmidt's reputation as the heir to Lee Atwater and Karl Rove, that he was not able to keep on his game face is startling.

Fallows

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,19:45   

K-Lo vs Frum

I'm looking forward to the upcoming purity purge.

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,19:56   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 13 2008,19:45)
K-Lo vs Frum

I'm looking forward to the upcoming purity purge.

Poor Bristol Palin.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,20:15   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,14:37)
And they use email lists for intimidation purposes, encouraging folks to call radio stations that are airing a view they aren't fond of.

I assume this equates with:

– Using physical mailing addresses to coordinate state police visits to and interrogations of ethnic voters in counties with an ethnic majority that might vote the 'other' way?

– Using physical mailing addresses to send official looking/sounding letters hinting that there might be arrests of certain people at voting locations if they show up?

– Having a GOP Secretary of State create "purge" lists to disenfranchise identified democratic leaning voters by lumping them in with felons?

Please, please, please...won't somebody help our poor radio stations avoid intimidation from phone calls!

(Unless of course they broadcast teh gay programs. In which case please contact their major advertisers and threaten to boycott.)

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"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2008,22:51   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 13 2008,20:38)
Quote
If you want an indication that the McCain camp has conceded...

13 Oct 2008 08:52 am
.... listen to this interview, from today's NPR Morning Edition (audio available after 9am EDT). In it, Renee Montagne questions Steve Schmidt, famed tough-guy, gloves-off strategist for the McCain campaign.

schmidt.jpgAnyone who has ever been near a troubled campaign -- or a sports team late in a losing game, or a business venture facing harsh reality -- will instantly recognize the signs of internalized defeat in Schmidt's comments:

Rationalization and excuses ("We were ahead until the financial crisis began"). More excuses ("We have the handicap of wearing the 'R' label this year" -- I mean, think about that for a moment, and imagine Karl Rove saying it). More and more excuses ("When someone says something inappropriate at our rallies, the media is all over it. When someone does it at an Obama rally...")  A "we'll do our best" tone as opposed to confidence about being able to win. A rote quality to the pep talk about victory ("Senator Obama is known as a weak closer, and Senator McCain is a strong finisher!"). These quotes are approximate, a few minutes after hearing the spot, but true to the spirit. Given Schmidt's reputation as the heir to Lee Atwater and Karl Rove, that he was not able to keep on his game face is startling.

Fallows

I don't know man. The Cleveland Browns just crushed the New York Giants 35-14. So anything can happen.

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,02:41   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,22:49)
[SNIP]

In that circumstance, would everyone here be just as blasé?

Color me skeptical.

The point you miss with your broad brush is that not EVERYONE is blasé. Some of us find these tactics disgusting no matter who does them.

Again, in your desire to play little tribal chimpy games you miss the clear objections I've made over and over to precisely this sort of underhanded politicking. So you can be as "sceptical" as you like, it's not like your "scepticism" (read: slanderous whining fueled by your inappropriate persecution complex) has any relevance.

Louis

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Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,06:39   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,02:41)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,22:49)
[SNIP]

In that circumstance, would everyone here be just as blasé?

Color me skeptical.

The point you miss with your broad brush is that not EVERYONE is blasé. Some of us find these tactics disgusting no matter who does them.

Again, in your desire to play little tribal chimpy games you miss the clear objections I've made over and over to precisely this sort of underhanded politicking. So you can be as "sceptical" as you like, it's not like your "scepticism" (read: slanderous whining fueled by your inappropriate persecution complex) has any relevance.

Louis

Gee Louis, you don't have to get snippy about it!

I hereby grant you the homage you deserve and crave as a charter member of the highly selective club of True Democrats.* Those rare electors of this planet who study position papers only (just the facts, ma’am) to determine their vote. The noble practitioners of a higher gnosis who, alone, are blessedly immune to any emotional appeal, shallow platitudes, inflaming hyperbole, and identity politics.

*The group is mostly European, which explains why Jews and the sons and daughters of Turkish guest workers have been elected Chancellor in Germany; the children of Moroccan and Algerian refugees have been elected President of France; and many from the former British African and Asian colonies have risen to PM in England—well ahead of America’s belated election of a minority to her highest office.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,06:58   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,06:39)
*The group is mostly European, which explains why Jews and the sons and daughters of Turkish guest workers have been elected Chancellor in Germany; the children of Moroccan and Algerian refugees have been elected President of France; and many from the former British African and Asian colonies have risen to PM in England—well ahead of America’s belated election of a minority to her highest office.

One of these is not like the other.  Can anyone explain to Dave which it is?

EDIT: Never mind.  On rereading, I understand what Dave is trying to say. All them high-falutin' Yurrpeons ain't no better than us Americans in this regard.  A point I am not inclined to disagree with.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,07:32   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,12:39)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,02:41)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 13 2008,22:49)
[SNIP]

In that circumstance, would everyone here be just as blasé?

Color me skeptical.

The point you miss with your broad brush is that not EVERYONE is blasé. Some of us find these tactics disgusting no matter who does them.

Again, in your desire to play little tribal chimpy games you miss the clear objections I've made over and over to precisely this sort of underhanded politicking. So you can be as "sceptical" as you like, it's not like your "scepticism" (read: slanderous whining fueled by your inappropriate persecution complex) has any relevance.

Louis

Gee Louis, you don't have to get snippy about it!

I hereby grant you the homage you deserve and crave as a charter member of the highly selective club of True Democrats.* Those rare electors of this planet who study position papers only (just the facts, ma’am) to determine their vote. The noble practitioners of a higher gnosis who, alone, are blessedly immune to any emotional appeal, shallow platitudes, inflaming hyperbole, and identity politics.

*The group is mostly European, which explains why Jews and the sons and daughters of Turkish guest workers have been elected Chancellor in Germany; the children of Moroccan and Algerian refugees have been elected President of France; and many from the former British African and Asian colonies have risen to PM in England—well ahead of America’s belated election of a minority to her highest office.

You're repeating your straw men again, Heddle.

I didn't and don't claim that I am one of "Those rare electors of this planet who study position papers only (just the facts, ma’am) to determine their vote. The noble practitioners of a higher gnosis who, alone, are blessedly immune to any emotional appeal, shallow platitudes, inflaming hyperbole, and identity politics." In fact I claim the direct OPPOSITE. It's precisely because I am so fallible and un-immune that I have to work hard to avoid emotional appeal etc as far as it is possible to do so. I've also never said this was a European group. In fact I could hand you several American Republicans who would agree with me on the issue of "issue voting" vs "identity politics". Read back, this time for comprehension.

My infallibility (or in this case, utter fallibility) is not the issue. I am in no way holier-than-anyone, a fact I state up front, loud and clear.. The point is to a) realise this and b) compensate for it by hard work and trying to stick to the issues.

The fact that insecure people like yourself, who openly abandon their responsibilities and then complain when taken to task for it, cannot conceive that someone else can realise they are fallible and work to improve themselves is a familiar problem. It's not that I'm better, it's that I haven't given up. Your homage and approval is neither craved nor desired in any way. Your attempt to improve yourself might be.

Let's remind ourselves that it's been YOU Heddle who has come here and whined about meanies from the other side of your respective aisle as if people are unaware of it. It's been YOU Heddle who has expressed such contempt for the other people of his nation and this board that he refuses to engage his intellect on the issues, and instead votes the same way some vastly less capable person might. It's YOU Heddle that is committing some asinine tu quoque, which I'll get to below. I realise that as one of God's chosen you think yourself beyond criticism, you ain't.

As for your drivel about European countries: let's talk more when you've managed to have a woman lead your nation shall we? I'll set the bar low for you, she can even be white. Shall I list the jewish and catholic PMs? How about the atheists? As usual Heddle, your clueless American parochialism blinds you to reality beyond the shining seas bordering your nation. And also as usual you have missed the point and brought up trivial irrelevances as if this were some game of identity politics yet again. Silly Heddle. Do you really think that by disparaging UKian/European politics you make my points any less valid? You've yet to DEAL with a single point, instead prefering your childish whines of "but you guys are naughty too!" As if it were somehow relevant to the point being made.

The key thing is all of that utterly MISSES MY POINT. Rather than horse trading, dick measuring and identity politics why not try to change it? Will, say, simply voting in a black man or an asian on some identity basis solve the problems of inequality and under representation? Nope (and incidentally I oppose the patronising 99.9999% of "affirmative action" policies on this very basis). But I know what will: checking out which MPs consistently vote to expand the rights we hold for ourselves to other, MPs for whom their voting record shows race/sex etc is an irrelevance. MPs who advocate genuine equality and create/enact policies to achieve this. I.e. following the issues and trying to understand them. Read around, pick up a political philosophy book or one on ethics once in a while. They won't kill you.

The reason I am taking YOU to task Heddle, is that you are supposedly an intelligent intellectual. Although given the manifestly gaga things you believe and your utter inability to argue rationally about any topic (perhaps other than physics) I might have to reassess that impression. If I give you the credit your education and position supposedly deserve you are one of the privileged few, an educated capable individual. If people like YOU abandon their democratic responsibilities then how likely is it we can get less educated and capable individuals to take up theirs? For a Republican you're awfully afraid of your responsibilities Heddle.

Your position is not merely the antithesis of my own, that disagreement is irrelevant, the fact that you are actively arguing for dumbing down, for avoiding the issues, for listening to the soundbites and for playing identity politics goes counter to the available evidence. If you want to be exploited, if you want to guarantee that the worst elements of politics prevail and that the demonstrable progress we as a species have made in the last century is slowed if not halted, then carry on. I don't want those things, and I don't think you do. I wonder why then that you advocate an approach to politics absolutely guaranteed to destroy that which you claim to value and achieve that which you claim not to desire.

Sort yourself out man.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,07:37   

A few pages back people were asking whether there was even one example of a vote cast by a bogus registrant courtesy of ACORN.

Yes, there is.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,07:40   

Hello???  Is this 911? Yeah, I'd like to report that some Brit named "Louis" has utterly eviscerated and pwned a "Good American and NASCAR follower" David Heddle?

OUCH!  That's go to hurt...

Heddle - Where do you want those bandages sent?  Should we send flowers instead?

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,07:42   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 14 2008,12:58)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,06:39)
*The group is mostly European, which explains why Jews and the sons and daughters of Turkish guest workers have been elected Chancellor in Germany; the children of Moroccan and Algerian refugees have been elected President of France; and many from the former British African and Asian colonies have risen to PM in England—well ahead of America’s belated election of a minority to her highest office.

One of these is not like the other.  Can anyone explain to Dave which it is?

EDIT: Never mind.  On rereading, I understand what Dave is trying to say. All them high-falutin' Yurrpeons ain't no better than us Americans in this regard.  A point I am not inclined to disagree with.

A point I'm not inclined to disagree with much either.

My point is, remains, and has always been that this sort of shit misses the point. Whomsoever it is from.

Heddle is trying to muddy the waters because he lacks the humility to face up to his own failings and responsibilities. But what should one expect from someone who holds so arrogant a theistic position as Calvinism?

If your car breaks down and you have a mechanic examine it and discover that the cause of the break down is the carburettor you don't fix the car by polishing it and commenting on how shiny it is. Nor do you fix it by tinkering with the gearbox, not do you fix it by listing the virtues of Hondas and the faults of Fords. You fix it by repairing/replacing the carburettor. You deal with the actual problem by engaging with it in a rational way.

Now it might be that we can argue about how best to repair/replace the carburettor on this particular vehicle, where the best part can be sourced from etc, but what we don't do is a) fail to examine the car because it's hard to do, b) loudly declaim that Hondas are better than Fords and that for all Honda's faults Fords have faults too, c) decry the very process of examining the car and instead resort to b alone as the best method of fixing the car.

Incidentally, I've also never understood why people assume that criticism must come from a superior perspective. It's fundamentally irrational AFAICT to think that. Criticism comes better from shared inferiority, from an understanding of the weaknesses that we are all subject to as opposed to a position of holier than thou superiority. Frankly I'm amazed that people are so pathetic when it comes to justified criticism.

Louis

I done did an edit for teh gramerr. It's still probably pants

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Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,08:00   

Top Ten Surprises In The Sarah Palin "Troopergate" Investigation Report

10.  Spent thousands of tax-payer dollars pimpin' her dog sled

9. Terminated her hairstylist after receiving a bad beehive

8. Palin claims she hasn't seen this kind of misuse of justice since Supreme Court case of... umm, lemme think of one

7.  In her adult life has never gone more than ten minutes without saying, "You betcha!"

6.  No number 6 -- writer looking for his hairbrush

5.  Report's conclusion: "Hey, at least she didn't shoot a guy like Cheney!"

4.  Spent 8 weeks in rehab for addiction to lip gloss

3.  When asked to respond to charges said, "Instead of answering your question, I'm going to talk about energy"

2.  Printed in extra-large font so McCain can read it!

1.  Palin's excuse: "It wasn't me, it was Tina Fey"


Top Ten List

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,08:14   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,07:32)
*snip* exercise in pomposity

No Louis, I am not Republican, nor am I whining, nor do I miss your point (such as it is), but rather I am mocking you.

It is in fact you who has repeatedly missed the boat, which is that, in this country anyway, voting the issues has been a loser of a proposition. Now, [hypothetically speaking] should I vote for the Obama whom I voted for, in the primary, after a detailed analysis of the issues, because he said, sensibly I thought, that Hillary's plan to place a moratorium on foreclosures was a utter disaster, or the Obama who now thinks it's a peachy keen idea? Which position will he take when elected? Who the hell knows?

And you missed my point entirely--that is the identity of the President is, to a very large extent, what makes him successful. Compare Kennedy to Johnson, Reagan to Carter, Clinton to either Bush.

I am mocking your position that a purely intellectual approach to the election, with no regard to the personalities but only the issues, is a viable strategy. It misses the obvious--that they all lie and flip-flop--and more importantly it misses the more subtle personality dynamics. The "hard work" of a detailed analysis of the issues--down to the minutia, is a complete an utter waste of time. Today we have the Republican candidate favoring a Brobdingnagian government, and a Democratic candidate with a penchant for curbing individual liberties. In the face os such absurdity, almost everything else is in the noise.

If Obama is a successful President it will, to a large part, not be because of issues--but rather because a majority of the country rallies around him. If that happens, then he'll be able to do things that were not even discussed during the election. Clinton's popularity allowed him to, almost inconceivably given he was a Democrat, purge the welfare roles. On the other hand, a big issue from Clinton's campaign, health care, was more or less abandoned. Health care after Clinton was not much different than before.

As to whether you "might have to reassess" your impression of me--who cares? Are you trying to be a right-out-of-central-casting, stereotypical,  self-righteous, pompous ass?

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,08:26   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,07:37)
A few pages back people were asking whether there was even one example of a vote cast by a bogus registrant courtesy of ACORN.

Yes, there is.

That's an interesting link, Dave. Here are some of the highlights, at least for me.  
Quote
A member of the board said if necessary, the FBI or federal prosecutors could be brought in for assistance.

Still, members of the bipartisan board downplayed any voter fraud.

And Platten insisted officials with ACORN have offered "any and all" help in probing the questionable activities. Katy Gall, the Ohio state director for ACORN, said her group is cooperating fully with the investigation.
(Platten is Jane Platten, a member of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections).

Here's a fact that you need to understand. Any group that helps to register voters has to turn ALL of those voter cards in to the election board. I hope we can agree that this is a good thing. Furthermore ACORN has little or no control over the actions of individual voters. Finally, as noted above, ACORN has cooperated fully with election officials, and this has been true in other jurisdictions as well. They have fired workers if they were registering suspect voters.

So what is your beef with ACORN? Is it possible that you are mistakenly blaming this voter registration group for the actions of individual voters who are misbehaving? Do you agree with Gov. Bush Lite, who is quoted at the end of the article accusing ACORN of trying to "steal this election"?  If so, what is the evidence that ACORN has done anything wrong. compared to the evidence that individual voters might be misbehaving?

And finally, did you read the comments?  My favorite -  
Quote
The Left is just asking for a civil war, because if we can't trust the ballot box then we have no other choice but resort to the ammobox.

Free and Fair elections is the better alternative to the use of arms, but when such becomes corrupted men will feel, justifiably so, that they have no other choice but to take other action.

What's your opinion about that call to arms?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,08:42   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,14:14)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,07:32)
*snip* exercise in pomposity

No Louis, I am not Republican, nor am I whining, nor do I miss your point (such as it is), but rather I am mocking you.

It is in fact you who has repeatedly missed the boat, which is that, in this country anyway, voting the issues has been a loser of a proposition. Now, [hypothetically speaking] should I vote for the Obama whom I voted for, in the primary, after a detailed analysis of the issues, because he said, sensibly I thought, that Hillary's plan to place a moratorium on foreclosures was a utter disaster, or the Obama who now thinks it's a peachy keen idea? Which position will he take when elected? Who the hell knows?

And you missed my point entirely--that is the identity of the President is, to a very large extent, what makes him successful. Compare Kennedy to Johnson, Reagan to Carter, Clinton to either Bush.

I am mocking your position that a purely intellectual approach to the election, with no regard to the personalities but only the issues, is a viable strategy. It misses the obvious--that they all lie and flip-flop--and more importantly it misses the more subtle personality dynamics. The "hard work" of a detailed analysis of the issues--down to the minutia, is a complete an utter waste of time. Today we have the Republican candidate favoring a Brobdingnagian government, and a Democratic candidate with a penchant for curbing individual liberties. In the face os such absurdity, almost everything else is in the noise.

If Obama is a successful President it will, to a large part, not be because of issues--but rather because a majority of the country rallies around him. If that happens, then he'll be able to do things that were not even discussed during the election. Clinton's popularity allowed him to, almost inconceivably given he was a Democrat, purge the welfare roles. On the other hand, a big issue from Clinton's campaign, health care, was more or less abandoned. Health care after Clinton was not much different than before.

As to whether you "might have to reassess" your impression of me--who cares? Are you trying to be a right-out-of-central-casting, stereotypical,  self-righteous, pompous ass?

Oops, yet another Heddle straw man!

Did I say the president's identity was 100% irrelevant? Nope.

Did I say identity in politics was 100% irrelevant? Nope.

Did I say that focussing on identity politics alone as you have advocated several times is problematic and that the emphasis should be on the issues and thus holding politicians to account? Yes.

Why do you keep trotting out straw men when they do nothing for you?

The rest of your post is the usual whining about "waaaaah teh issues be hard". Where I have I written a defence of party political voting for example? Or voting on campaign issues alone? I'd advocate against such superficial methods, they're little better than a coin toss for the reason you mention. Large govt Republicans? Gosh! How would we know they exist (for example)? Why would it be a careful analysis of the issues? Oh wait, yes it would.

Forgive my sarcasm Heddle, but you're not in a position to mock me. You're in a position to chuck out clouds of ink to disguise your gross inadequacies, but let's be blunt, it ain't working. The only thing mockable is your gross misunderstanding of what I've said. Well, that and your ever asinine "team" whines, logical fallacies and anti-intellectualism.

Incidentally, just how does one measure the "success" of a particular government/politician? Popular appeal? In that case Palin is remarkably successful. I admit I don't know the American system as perhaps I should, but I do know the UK one reasonably well. Was John Major a "successful" PM? Maggie? Blair? If so by what criteria? Or is it all just too hard for you because they all lie, cheat, and mess up? How about we get measurable criteria for political success? I wonder, do they exist anywhere. I'll bet there's a book in the library on this. Surely someone somewhere has thought of a rational approach to politics......oops more sarcasm!

Popularity can indeed grant a mandate (btw I'd love for you to find me denying this anywhere), but popularity a) doesn't keep you in power alone, b) is very fickle, and c) is the very in-road into the politics of despair. Following what is merely popular is precisely why we repeat the same mistakes we did before. The messianic coronation of Obama is as stupid as the home-town folksiness of Palin (for example). Holding your candidate to account on the issues, getting well defined campaign/manifesto commitments out of them actually works. The reason politicians renege on these vague commitments is because we, the electorate, let them. It's our fault.

Again, this is why I am against mere identity voting. No one denies the importance of the presentation, but the "what" of what is being said is more important than the "how". Sadly, we are tuned to prefer the opposite case. Fighting that tuning is important. Like I said (and you ignored) if you want to be exploited carry on. You and I both agree that we agree going to be exploited (for example), the difference between us is you seem happy to let it continue.

Have I also argued that the subtle interplay of personality and identity play no part in politics? Nope.

Have I argued that as a voter who wants to enact real improvement focussing first on the issues and doing one's homework might just be the way forward? Yep.

Heddle, do you even realise that were we to translate your approach to physics people'd be getting grants based on which physicist was the most popular? Do you even realise what you are arguing FOR? Seriously, do you even realise how anti-intellectual you are being.

In the final analysis you just don't like the fact that when you've waved your hands and given up your responsibilities someone has called you on it. And *I'm* the pompous one. Shyeah, right. I suggest you look up the meaning of the word.

So if all you've got is "waaaaah it's hard" and "waaaaaah you're pompous" (neither of which is true btw) and the usual round of your straw buddies, I'll leave you to lick your wounds. Wake me with something new.

Louis

P.S. You're not a Republican? My mistake. You're clueless enough to be well represented by the more vocal of that party's exponents. It's an easy mistake to make.

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,08:46   

Albatrossity2,

I have no problem with the charter of ACORN. Who could be against getting people registered? And I do understand that ACORN must turn in all registration cards--which is why I don't think the occasional "Mickey Mouse" registration is a problem.

The problem is that ACORN is giving (me, at least) the impression that they are leveraging the fact that they must turn in all registrations. By some (in my estimation credible accounts) their workers are encouraging multiple registrations. The problem is not so much that one person who registered 72 times will try to vote 72 times. Or that a cat or Mickey Mouse or the Dallas Cowboys (all registered by ACORN in Las Vegas) will vote as registered. The problem is that multiple registrations floods the system and overwhelms local election boards who are responsible for verification.

Reform is clearly needed here. More responsibility must fall to the hands of those registering voters. Voter registration should not be amateur hour. ACORN has abused the spirit of the system, and then hides behind "sorry, we must turn in all registrations." If community organizations want to do it, that's perfectly fine. But they should be required to train their workers properly, and proper identification should be required. The fraction of fraudulent registrations that make it to the election board needs to be reduced.

As for ACORN saying that they are cooperating--maybe they are, but really, what else could they say?

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,09:05   

Quote
Louis,
Did I say the president's identity was 100% irrelevant? Nope.



Well, what percentage did you imply when you wrote:

Quote
Try to understand that I utterly eschew the person I am voting for and focus only on the issues


Does "only on the issues" mean 99 and 44/100%? 75%? 50%?

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,09:07   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,08:46)
Reform is clearly needed here. More responsibility must fall to the hands of those registering voters. Voter registration should not be amateur hour. ACORN has abused the spirit of the system, and then hides behind "sorry, we must turn in all registrations." If community organizations want to do it, that's perfectly fine. But they should be required to train their workers properly, and proper identification should be required. The fraction of fraudulent registrations that make it to the election board needs to be reduced.

As for ACORN saying that they are cooperating--maybe they are, but really, what else could they say?

Dave,

Have you not been over to Ed's this morning?  Apparently not. Read here.

The money shot:
 
Quote
3. In nearly every case that has been reported, it was ACORN that discovered the bad forms, and called them to the attention of election authorities, putting the forms in a package that identified them in writing as suspicious, encouraging election officials to investigate, and offering to help with prosecutions. We are required by law to turn in all forms, but instead of just turning them in and figuring that it is the responsibility of the board of elections to figure out which are valid, we spend millions of dollars verifying that forms are valid, and then separate out those that are suspicious.


--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,09:25   

carlsonjok,

I have read it and it is nothing new. I've been hearing for a few days now (from ACORN) about what a crackerjack job ACORN is doing policing itself. But generally we do not accept an organization, facing serious allegations, to dismiss concerns by a wave of the hand and promises of self-oversight. ACORN needs to be investigated thoroughly--and if problems are verified, reforms must be enacted.  

Likewise, all credible allegations of voter suppression must be investigated. If the GOP says: "oh, don't worry, we make sure our operatives are not involved in voter suppression" would that satisfy you?

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,09:44   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,09:25)
carlsonjok,

I have read it and it is nothing new. I've been hearing for a few days now (from ACORN) about what a crackerjack job ACORN is doing policing itself. But generally we do not accept an organization, facing serious allegations, to dismiss concerns by a wave of the hand and promises of self-oversight. ACORN needs to be investigated thoroughly--and if problems are verified, reforms must be enacted.  

Likewise, all credible allegations of voter suppression must be investigated. If the GOP says: "oh, don't worry, we make sure our operatives are not involved in voter suppression" would that satisfy you?

Of course, Dave, but before you consider yourself vindicated for having a drawn a moral equivalence and, thus, avoided the actual question, let me ask you something. Wouldn't you agree that actual, demonstrated acts of self-policing are morally superior to the mere assurance that such self-policing will take place?  Or do you doubt that ACORN, and thus Ed, is being honest about it?

EDIT:  Toned down the snottiness.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,10:00   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,08:46)
Albatrossity2,

I have no problem with the charter of ACORN. Who could be against getting people registered? And I do understand that ACORN must turn in all registration cards--which is why I don't think the occasional "Mickey Mouse" registration is a problem.

The problem is that ACORN is giving (me, at least) the impression that they are leveraging the fact that they must turn in all registrations. By some (in my estimation credible accounts) their workers are encouraging multiple registrations. The problem is not so much that one person who registered 72 times will try to vote 72 times. Or that a cat or Mickey Mouse or the Dallas Cowboys (all registered by ACORN in Las Vegas) will vote as registered. The problem is that multiple registrations floods the system and overwhelms local election boards who are responsible for verification.

Reform is clearly needed here. More responsibility must fall to the hands of those registering voters. Voter registration should not be amateur hour. ACORN has abused the spirit of the system, and then hides behind "sorry, we must turn in all registrations." If community organizations want to do it, that's perfectly fine. But they should be required to train their workers properly, and proper identification should be required. The fraction of fraudulent registrations that make it to the election board needs to be reduced.

Thanks for the clarification. I note that you did not answer several questions, but we'll go with what you did say.

Re the problem of "too much work" for overworked election boards - would you have the same response if a political party (say, the GOP) had a voter registration campaign and inundated the election board with 17,000 new registrations? Do you think that if this happened, there might be a few bad apples in that batch as well? More to the point, when you say that "more responsibility must fall into the hands of those registering voters", exactly what kind of power/responsibility would you give them? Pre-emptive ability to eliminate a voter registration card? You accuse ACORN of failure to train their workers properly, but do you have evidence for that accusation?  Does the fact that they have fired workers whose work was sloppy have any bearing on your prejudice that this group has "abused the spirit of the system"? I am seriously interested in hearing about this evidence, and about steps that can be taken by registration groups that would not usurp the legitimate responsibilities of election boards...
Quote

As for ACORN saying that they are cooperating--maybe they are, but really, what else could they say?

Apparently you did not notice what the election board officials said in that article to which you linked, or in other jurisdictions. You don't have to take the word of an organization which you despise; election board officials also think that ACORN is fully cooperating. In other jurisdictions (e.g. in Missouri) ACORN folks have flagged the registration cards that they think might be bogus (and then fired workers who collected too many of these), which might save the election officials a fair amount of work.  Could that be viewed as cooperation, or do you still have doubts, based on nothing more tangible than the rhetoric spouted on right-wing websites?

In short, you have failed to point to any failures of ACORN that could be avoided. Any voter registration drive would probably give the same results; any group would turn in registration cards for a few miscreants. You are still blaming the group for the misdeeds of others, and you still have no evidence that these folks are, as accused by your favorite candidate, "stealing the election".

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,10:39   

carlsonjok

 
Quote
Of course, Dave, but before you consider yourself vindicated for having a drawn a moral equivalence and, thus, avoided the actual question, let me ask you something. Wouldn't you agree that actual, demonstrated acts of self-policing are morally superior to the mere assurance that such self-policing will take place?  Or do you doubt that ACORN, and thus Ed, is being honest about it?


I doubt ACORN is being honest about it. And no, I wouldn't agree that "demonstrated acts of self-policing are morally superior to the mere assurance that such self-policing will take place?" at least not substantively. Why are all these states investigating ACORN? Because of serious concerns.

What I don't understand is why anyone could be opposed to such an investigation. Voter registration should be taken seriously.

Albatrossity2,

   
Quote
Re the problem of "too much work" for overworked election boards - would you have the same response if a political party (say, the GOP) had a voter registration campaign and inundated the election board with 17,000 new registrations? Do you think that if this happened, there might be a few bad apples in that batch as well?


Yes indeed, which is why the system is in need of reform. Proper, valid identification should be required. Those registering should be well-trained, and accountable for a good faith effort to verify address and identity. I don't care which side does it. In our zealousness to make it simple to register we have created a monster. Let's register people, but lets do it in a way where the system is not gamed by either side.

   
Quote
In short, you have failed to point to any failures of ACORN that could be avoided.


But I did. Checking valid photo IDs should eliminate the registration of Mickey Mouse.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,10:50   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,10:39)
     
Quote
In short, you have failed to point to any failures of ACORN that could be avoided.


But I did. Checking valid photo IDs should eliminate the registration of Mickey Mouse.

Sure. It's interesting that this has become a campaign against "making it too easy to register". That is a far cry from the original accusations of "stealing the election", don't you think?

Funny how you continually avoid discussion of Palin's rhetoric...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,10:54   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,10:39)
     
Quote
In short, you have failed to point to any failures of ACORN that could be avoided.


But I did. Checking valid photo IDs should eliminate the registration of Mickey Mouse.

I heard that 10% of the population (of course those are more likely to be poor and non-white) don't have such ID.

So lets cut out 10% of potential voters because almost nobody has actually cast a fraudulent vote? Disenfranchise 10% of voters because 0.000000000000000000001% is "fraudulent".

I don't think so. I can see how the idea might attract supporters of the party those 10% won't be voting for however.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,10:59   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 14 2008,10:50)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,10:39)
           
Quote
In short, you have failed to point to any failures of ACORN that could be avoided.


But I did. Checking valid photo IDs should eliminate the registration of Mickey Mouse.

Sure. It's interesting that this has become a campaign against "making it too easy to register". That is a far cry from the original accusations of "stealing the election", don't you think?

Funny how you continually avoid discussion of Palin's rhetoric...

Because I am not talking about Palin's rhetoric, and that has been the issue as I framed it--in fact it is totally irrelevant. I never stated the election was being stolen, I stated that ACORN needs to be investigated.

I don't agree with Palin's rhetoric. Or Biden's. Or McCain's. Or Obama's. My only response to questions of Palin's rhetoric will be to do what I have been doing--present similar examples from the other side to show the problem is universal. For crying out loud, the Obama campaign at one time painted Bill Clinton (Bill Clinton!) as a racist. That's a friggin' Nobel Prize in rhetoric.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,11:01   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 14 2008,10:54)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,10:39)
         
Quote
In short, you have failed to point to any failures of ACORN that could be avoided.


But I did. Checking valid photo IDs should eliminate the registration of Mickey Mouse.

I heard that 10% of the population (of course those are more likely to be poor and non-white) don't have such ID.

So lets cut out 10% of potential voters because almost nobody has actually cast a fraudulent vote? Disenfranchise 10% of voters because 0.000000000000000000001% is "fraudulent".

I don't think so. I can see how the idea might attract supporters of the party those 10% won't be voting for however.

Yes and it's nutso that photo-ID is not required. My autistic son has a state-issued photo ID. Anyone can get one. It's not too much to ask.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,11:02   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,10:39)
carlsonjok
       
Quote
Of course, Dave, but before you consider yourself vindicated for having a drawn a moral equivalence and, thus, avoided the actual question, let me ask you something. Wouldn't you agree that actual, demonstrated acts of self-policing are morally superior to the mere assurance that such self-policing will take place?  Or do you doubt that ACORN, and thus Ed, is being honest about it?

I doubt ACORN is being honest about it. And no, I wouldn't agree that "demonstrated acts of self-policing are morally superior to the mere assurance that such self-policing will take place?" at least not substantively. Why are all these states investigating ACORN? Because of serious concerns.
Concerns that were apparently raised by ACORN themselves; a point that you cannot seem to acknowledge. Having said that, I am not exactly sure how to find common ground with someone who sees no discernible difference between merely promising something and the actual act of delivering on that promise.  
 
Quote

What I don't understand is why anyone could be opposed to such an investigation. Voter registration should be taken seriously.

Serious strawman, Dave. I never said I was opposed to an investigation and if you go back and read for content you will see that I didn't.  The issue I am trying to engage you on isn't that the investigation is illegitimate it is that there is exculpating information that you are refusing to acknowledge.  I can, with tongue partly in cheek, only conclude that your politics more closely resemble your religion rather than your science: All apologetics, little actual evidence.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,11:11   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,11:01)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 14 2008,10:54)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,10:39)
           
Quote
In short, you have failed to point to any failures of ACORN that could be avoided.


But I did. Checking valid photo IDs should eliminate the registration of Mickey Mouse.

I heard that 10% of the population (of course those are more likely to be poor and non-white) don't have such ID.

So lets cut out 10% of potential voters because almost nobody has actually cast a fraudulent vote? Disenfranchise 10% of voters because 0.000000000000000000001% is "fraudulent".

I don't think so. I can see how the idea might attract supporters of the party those 10% won't be voting for however.

Yes and it's nutso that photo-ID is not required. My autistic son has a state-issued photo ID. Anyone can get one. It's not too much to ask.

So perhaps when photo-ID has been taken up by 99.9% of the population that would be the time to require it at the voting booth.

No passport, no drivers ID, no vote? No way!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,11:13   

Is registering to vote with ACORN any diffrent than registering to vote anywhere else? When I registered, I did so at the county courthouse, no 3rd parties involved. No IDs were checked, there was nothing to stop me from submitting fake registrations, and the end result is the same. Probobly worse, since no one is flagging the suspect ones.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,11:15   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,15:05)
Quote
Louis,
Did I say the president's identity was 100% irrelevant? Nope.



Well, what percentage did you imply when you wrote:

 
Quote
Try to understand that I utterly eschew the person I am voting for and focus only on the issues


Does "only on the issues" mean 99 and 44/100%? 75%? 50%?

Try to read  (and quote) things in context.

Also, yes, *I* try to follow the issues and eschew the person simply because I know how vulnerable I am to a slick sales pitch etc (as admitted before). That's very different from the claim that identity is irrelevant in politics. It should be, it isn't do you understand the difference?

EPIC READING FAIL on your part yet again Heddle. Will you never tire of your straw?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,11:18   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,10:59)
Because I am not talking about Palin's rhetoric, and that has been the issue as I framed it--in fact it is totally irrelevant. I never stated the election was being stolen, I stated that ACORN needs to be investigated.

Actually, you never even said that until fairly late in this discussion, and it also ignores the FACT that they are the subject of several investigations. Unlike Gov. Bush Lite, they are actually cooperating in the investigations.

Here's a bit of history. You intimated that your election place would have 72 ACORN registrants. You revealed that you get your information about ACORN from Drudge. You linked to an article about a single miscreant voter, which quoted your favorite candidate as saying that ACORN is stealing the election.

In other words, it's mostly been innuendo, misdirection (pointing to rhetorical misdeeds of the Obama campaign as if it made your case stronger) and disregard for facts (investigations are ongoing and ACORN is cooperating).

I understand better now how Palin can be your favorite candidate...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,11:22   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,16:59)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 14 2008,10:50)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,10:39)
           
Quote
In short, you have failed to point to any failures of ACORN that could be avoided.


But I did. Checking valid photo IDs should eliminate the registration of Mickey Mouse.

Sure. It's interesting that this has become a campaign against "making it too easy to register". That is a far cry from the original accusations of "stealing the election", don't you think?

Funny how you continually avoid discussion of Palin's rhetoric...

Because I am not talking about Palin's rhetoric, and that has been the issue as I framed it--in fact it is totally irrelevant. I never stated the election was being stolen, I stated that ACORN needs to be investigated.

I don't agree with Palin's rhetoric. Or Biden's. Or McCain's. Or Obama's. My only response to questions of Palin's rhetoric will be to do what I have been doing--present similar examples from the other side to show the problem is universal. For crying out loud, the Obama campaign at one time painted Bill Clinton (Bill Clinton!) as a racist. That's a friggin' Nobel Prize in rhetoric.

Bolding mine.

The problem of said universality has been denied where? And by whom? Certainly no one here.

But then as we already know ALL you are interested in is the "team game", the "tu quoque" and the "identity politics". The self confessedly shallow and anti-intellectual approach of the terminally lazy space filler. The reasoning equivalent of:

"Momma, Davey did a bad thing!"

"Yeah well you did a bad thing too!"

Bravo Heddle, bravo! Tell me, was it such expert logical and rational faculties that earned you your current position? Just how much do you get paid to warm a seat that someone better qualified could occupy?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,11:25   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 14 2008,17:18)
[SNIP]

I understand better now how Palin can be your favorite candidate...

As do we all.

Shallow and stupid is as shallow and stupid does.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,12:22   

Levity.  we needs it.

(I didn't get to watch it, but this write up alone makes me laugh.  Politics aside, I think it's a funny-clever ad.)

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,12:42   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,11:15)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,15:05)
   
Quote
Louis,
Did I say the president's identity was 100% irrelevant? Nope.



Well, what percentage did you imply when you wrote:

     
Quote
Try to understand that I utterly eschew the person I am voting for and focus only on the issues


Does "only on the issues" mean 99 and 44/100%? 75%? 50%?

Try to read  (and quote) things in context.

Also, yes, *I* try to follow the issues and eschew the person simply because I know how vulnerable I am to a slick sales pitch etc (as admitted before). That's very different from the claim that identity is irrelevant in politics. It should be, it isn't do you understand the difference?

EPIC READING FAIL on your part yet again Heddle. Will you never tire of your straw?

Louis

In other words: oops, I did write that, but let's pretend I didn't, by claiming it was out of context, though it wasn't. Toss in a another insult, and nobody will notice.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,12:58   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 10 2008,03:48)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 10 2008,00:40)
[SNIP]

So who will you vote for Louis when we get a chance?

Damned if I know. They all (politicians) bug me. Nobody represents what I want. Who will you vote for and how will it not be identity politics?

Serious question and I don't know.

Good question.

At this point in time I don't know. I'm discussing something with an economist friend of mine (who is generously teaching me basic economics) which should help me to decide between certain policies.

Watching Question Time last night I was shocked to hear Tories spouting what amounted to socialism, so it would seem my choice isn't going to be made easier!

I read Hansard (which is pretty dull) and Lords Hansard once a week (more if I get the chance or if there is something I am particulalry keen on). The main Hansard page is quite useful. I also check out how MP's vote here and other places.

It doesn't take a lot of effort, commonly a couple of hours a week, more if there's something I'm really interested in (civil liberties, education, science funding, secularism etc). The reason I'm trying to learn something about economics at the moment is because I self confessedly know little about it, and with all the economic turmoil around at the moment I want to be able to distinguish between candidates/parties/policies on an economic basis.

When it gets to election time I tend to rank candidates/parties (the way the whip works here you can't always distinguish between the two) according to those criteria (voting record, comments in Hansard etc). And lest anyone think that this is mere identity politics with more effort, there are (for example) issues (like science funding levels etc) which have a demonstrably positive effect on society as a whole (obviously this involves some reading about history etc). Like I said, it ain't easy at the start, but it gains momentum, after all history ain't going anywhere!

And for the record all politicians bug me too. I'm relatively firmly convinced that if one desires power this should disqualify one!

As I said at the start, who I'll vote for is something I'm not certain about, but for the general election I'm leaning liberal democrat/green at the moment, local elections are a different bag. However, voting for those people presents its own problems, the honest answer is I don't know just now. Historically I've voted across the political spectrum, and also not voted at all. The labour party have disappointed me, some of their policies have been excellent but the baggage those have come with outweighs that. In a "lesser of two (many) evils" situation like ours, we don't have the free choice we might like. BTW free choice/proportional representation is something I campaign for. I'm not overly concerned about party politics, I think the system itself needs changing.

Like science, politics is something we can find out about. It's ok not to know or not to be certain, and it's ok to investigate. Why a) deliberately abrogate one's responsibilities or b) plumb for some certainty or dogma when, as ever, the devil lies in the detail?

I appreciate this approach isn't for everyone, but a simple admission of it is sufficient. Take computer science for example: I know sweet fuck all about it. I can't even write a basic script, let alone programme. I know a bit about the physics of computers and how to use certain bits of software, but other than that: nada. Not only do I admit it, but I admit that any opinions I might have about computer topics (like for example tracing IP addresses etc) are based only on my ignorance. Hence I tend not to bother having an opinion. The reason I bothered to learn anything about politics/history/philosophy is because I had opinions I wanted to check out. I've had to change those opinions more often than not, based on the evidence.

Louis

Louis,

Thanks for that answer. I agree with most of what you said but fail to see how it helps. Point being; we only get to vote for who our local MP will be. For most of us we live in a safe seat and our vote is not worth anything (that is why I agree with you about proportional representation). As an example I have lived in many constituencies in my life and don't think I have ever lived in a marginal.

Even if we live in a marginal your MP is likely to belong to a party. If that is the case do you check the MP's voting record or their parties general tendency?

If you vote for a independent MP and are successful; what use is that? What can an unaffiliated MP achieve?

Cut short. I feel disenfranchised.

Changes I would like to see? A vote for PM. Then a list of all possible MPs and a vote for them. Not a local vote, a national one. If we did that I could see a real value to checking individuals voting records etc.

As for the presidential (USA) thing. I can see good and bad points for all candidates.

I quite like Sarah Palin but that is probably because 1) I find her physically attractive and that is stopping my brain working. 2) I quite like her "Reagan(ish)" style.

I quite like McCain because 1)the guy actually did serve his country. 2) Most of his life he voted with integrity and only on this election run does he seem different (my take is that this is due to his campaign managers and does not represent his character).

I quite like Obama because 1) What he says moves me. 2) He does seem to want the USA to be a better place for the poor and downtrodden.

Weird thing is that I have no idea what any of them really stand for in real policies. I have seen nothing but sound bites so far.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,13:17   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,18:42)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,11:15)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 14 2008,15:05)
   
Quote
Louis,
Did I say the president's identity was 100% irrelevant? Nope.



Well, what percentage did you imply when you wrote:

     
Quote
Try to understand that I utterly eschew the person I am voting for and focus only on the issues


Does "only on the issues" mean 99 and 44/100%? 75%? 50%?

Try to read  (and quote) things in context.

Also, yes, *I* try to follow the issues and eschew the person simply because I know how vulnerable I am to a slick sales pitch etc (as admitted before). That's very different from the claim that identity is irrelevant in politics. It should be, it isn't do you understand the difference?

EPIC READING FAIL on your part yet again Heddle. Will you never tire of your straw?

Louis

In other words: oops, I did write that, but let's pretend I didn't, by claiming it was out of context, though it wasn't. Toss in a another insult, and nobody will notice.

Not even slightly right. As of course you'd know if you'd read several of the other things I've written on the topic. Many of which are available to you on this thread.

Do you understand the difference between appreciating something is an aspect of a current situation and working so that it (hopefully) won't be a part of a future one?

Imagine you have a cold. The runny nose etc are symptoms of the current disease, taking paracetamol alleviates those symptoms until the disease has passed. I take paracetamol to alleviate the current symptoms, hopefully by the time the paracetamol has worn off, the disease will have run its course. Get it yet?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,13:30   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 14 2008,18:58)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 10 2008,03:48)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 10 2008,00:40)
[SNIP]

So who will you vote for Louis when we get a chance?

Damned if I know. They all (politicians) bug me. Nobody represents what I want. Who will you vote for and how will it not be identity politics?

Serious question and I don't know.

Good question.

At this point in time I don't know. I'm discussing something with an economist friend of mine (who is generously teaching me basic economics) which should help me to decide between certain policies.

Watching Question Time last night I was shocked to hear Tories spouting what amounted to socialism, so it would seem my choice isn't going to be made easier!

I read Hansard (which is pretty dull) and Lords Hansard once a week (more if I get the chance or if there is something I am particulalry keen on). The main Hansard page is quite useful. I also check out how MP's vote here and other places.

It doesn't take a lot of effort, commonly a couple of hours a week, more if there's something I'm really interested in (civil liberties, education, science funding, secularism etc). The reason I'm trying to learn something about economics at the moment is because I self confessedly know little about it, and with all the economic turmoil around at the moment I want to be able to distinguish between candidates/parties/policies on an economic basis.

When it gets to election time I tend to rank candidates/parties (the way the whip works here you can't always distinguish between the two) according to those criteria (voting record, comments in Hansard etc). And lest anyone think that this is mere identity politics with more effort, there are (for example) issues (like science funding levels etc) which have a demonstrably positive effect on society as a whole (obviously this involves some reading about history etc). Like I said, it ain't easy at the start, but it gains momentum, after all history ain't going anywhere!

And for the record all politicians bug me too. I'm relatively firmly convinced that if one desires power this should disqualify one!

As I said at the start, who I'll vote for is something I'm not certain about, but for the general election I'm leaning liberal democrat/green at the moment, local elections are a different bag. However, voting for those people presents its own problems, the honest answer is I don't know just now. Historically I've voted across the political spectrum, and also not voted at all. The labour party have disappointed me, some of their policies have been excellent but the baggage those have come with outweighs that. In a "lesser of two (many) evils" situation like ours, we don't have the free choice we might like. BTW free choice/proportional representation is something I campaign for. I'm not overly concerned about party politics, I think the system itself needs changing.

Like science, politics is something we can find out about. It's ok not to know or not to be certain, and it's ok to investigate. Why a) deliberately abrogate one's responsibilities or b) plumb for some certainty or dogma when, as ever, the devil lies in the detail?

I appreciate this approach isn't for everyone, but a simple admission of it is sufficient. Take computer science for example: I know sweet fuck all about it. I can't even write a basic script, let alone programme. I know a bit about the physics of computers and how to use certain bits of software, but other than that: nada. Not only do I admit it, but I admit that any opinions I might have about computer topics (like for example tracing IP addresses etc) are based only on my ignorance. Hence I tend not to bother having an opinion. The reason I bothered to learn anything about politics/history/philosophy is because I had opinions I wanted to check out. I've had to change those opinions more often than not, based on the evidence.

Louis

Louis,

Thanks for that answer. I agree with most of what you said but fail to see how it helps. Point being; we only get to vote for who our local MP will be. For most of us we live in a safe seat and our vote is not worth anything (that is why I agree with you about proportional representation). As an example I have lived in many constituencies in my life and don't think I have ever lived in a marginal.

Even if we live in a marginal your MP is likely to belong to a party. If that is the case do you check the MP's voting record or their parties general tendency?

If you vote for a independent MP and are successful; what use is that? What can an unaffiliated MP achieve?

Cut short. I feel disenfranchised.

Changes I would like to see? A vote for PM. Then a list of all possible MPs and a vote for them. Not a local vote, a national one. If we did that I could see a real value to checking individuals voting records etc.

As for the presidential (USA) thing. I can see good and bad points for all candidates.

I quite like Sarah Palin but that is probably because 1) I find her physically attractive and that is stopping my brain working. 2) I quite like her "Reagan(ish)" style.

I quite like McCain because 1)the guy actually did serve his country. 2) Most of his life he voted with integrity and only on this election run does he seem different (my take is that this is due to his campaign managers and does not represent his character).

I quite like Obama because 1) What he says moves me. 2) He does seem to want the USA to be a better place for the poor and downtrodden.

Weird thing is that I have no idea what any of them really stand for in real policies. I have seen nothing but sound bites so far.

It's tough all right and I feel the same sense of disenfranchisement. Does it help? Hmmm tough question. In some ways yes and in some, no. As citizens it's our duty to vote (or at least air our disapproval etc), so I think it behooves us to vote intelligently, to campaign for the changes and policies we desire in an evidence based way.

Even party's have factions within them, checking voting records etc allows you to know which factions MPs stand for in their party. It can help you make your decision. It helps because you can rank what you think important and see which candidates best match. Is that candidate's presence diluted by the party, and your vote by the votes of others? Of course it is, and as we both agree that is a failing of our current system. It's that three part process that's important: Decide what's most important to you (subjective), try to come to some idea of what potential solutions to current problems would be productive (less subjective), see which candidates most closely match those potential solutions etc (much less subjective).

The next part if the fun bit: hold the fuckers to account. Campaign! Protest! Burn a McDonalds....hey, it's always fun to burn a McDonalds!

An unaffiliated MP can achieve a good bit, there's the work of his/her constituency, votes in the house, all recorded etc, speeches, campaigning. It all adds up. If we all throw our hands in the air and say "what can one person do?" we're all fucked! History shows that a motivated few can make one hell of a difference.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,13:33   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,12:30)
Campaign! Protest! Burn a McDonalds....hey, it's always fun to burn a McDonalds!

But wait until after I've had lunch, please. :p

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,13:49   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,13:30)
...As citizens it's our duty to vote (or at least air our disapproval etc), so I think it behooves us to vote intelligently, to campaign for the changes and policies we desire in an evidence based way...
Louis

Small quibble,

I think voting is a right and not a duty. Until we have "none of the above" on the election card, I think that not voting is a legitimate choice. I have chosen that option on occasion.

EDIT to add: I really want "none of the above" as an option. Then if say 50% vote "none of the above" it should make the election irrelevant and new candidates provided.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,14:02   

Quote
Then if say 50% vote "none of the above" it should make the election irrelevant and new candidates provided.


But then you'd have to find more people dumb enough to want the job...

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,14:07   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 14 2008,14:02)
Quote
Then if say 50% vote "none of the above" it should make the election irrelevant and new candidates provided.


But then you'd have to find more people dumb enough to want the job...

Would that be a bad thing?

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,14:17   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 14 2008,19:49)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,13:30)
...As citizens it's our duty to vote (or at least air our disapproval etc), so I think it behooves us to vote intelligently, to campaign for the changes and policies we desire in an evidence based way...
Louis

Small quibble,

I think voting is a right and not a duty. Until we have "none of the above" on the election card, I think that not voting is a legitimate choice. I have chosen that option on occasion.

EDIT to add: I really want "none of the above" as an option. Then if say 50% vote "none of the above" it should make the election irrelevant and new candidates provided.

I think your clarification suits me down to the ground, especially as I've also chosen not to vote more than once.

I think you're right, a "none of the above" option is needed.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,14:18   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 14 2008,20:07)
Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 14 2008,14:02)
Quote
Then if say 50% vote "none of the above" it should make the election irrelevant and new candidates provided.


But then you'd have to find more people dumb enough to want the job...

Would that be a bad thing?

Depends on how dumb/how desperate they are! ;-)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,14:56   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,13:17)
I think your clarification suits me down to the ground, especially as I've also chosen not to vote more than once.

So there were occasions when you chose to vote more than once?

Are you admitting to stuffing the box here?

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,15:01   

Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 14 2008,14:56)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,13:17)
I think your clarification suits me down to the ground, especially as I've also chosen not to vote more than once.

So there were occasions when you chose to vote more than once?

Are you admitting to stuffing the box here?

Not if you believe Mrs. Louis.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,15:15   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 14 2008,14:01)
   
Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 14 2008,14:56)
   
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,13:17)
I think your clarification suits me down to the ground, especially as I've also chosen not to vote more than once.

So there were occasions when you chose to vote more than once?

Are you admitting to stuffing the box here?

Not if you believe Mrs. Louis.

In my haste, it appears I was a bit too transparent, what with carlsonjok, Louis, Arden, Arden's mum and all the missuses making the rounds...

I'm new here, so please forgive my insouciance for being obscure...

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,16:23   

Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 14 2008,21:15)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 14 2008,14:01)
   
Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Oct. 14 2008,14:56)
     
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,13:17)
I think your clarification suits me down to the ground, especially as I've also chosen not to vote more than once.

So there were occasions when you chose to vote more than once?

Are you admitting to stuffing the box here?

Not if you believe Mrs. Louis.

In my haste, it appears I was a bit too transparent, what with carlsonjok, Louis, Arden, Arden's mum and all the missuses making the rounds...

I'm new here, so please forgive my insouciance for being obscure...

CALUMNY!!!! LIES!!!! LIBEL!!!!!

I've stuffed that box.....

Erm ahahahahaha, what I mean is...oh bugger.

What I meant was there have been occasions when I have chosen not to vote.

But there was this one time, at band camp, when I stuffed the ballot boxes.

The judge said I was innocent however, so there.

--------------
Bye.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,17:14   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 14 2008,12:02)
Quote
Then if say 50% vote "none of the above" it should make the election irrelevant and new candidates provided.


But then you'd have to find more people dumb enough to want the job...

My wife is both a sociologist and very intelligent. She has insisted for years that neither Blacks nor females would ever win the White House unless the country was well and truly sunk in shit.

Looks like she was correct again.

Edited by Dr.GH on Oct. 14 2008,15:15

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,17:39   

Christopher Buckley avalanched in hate mail, leaves National Review

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,18:01   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 14 2008,17:39)
Christopher Buckley avalanched in hate mail, leaves National Review

It is, I suppose,  a question of who you want to believe. But NRO paints a less dramatic picture.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,18:38   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,12:17)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 14 2008,19:49)
 
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 14 2008,13:30)
...As citizens it's our duty to vote (or at least air our disapproval etc), so I think it behooves us to vote intelligently, to campaign for the changes and policies we desire in an evidence based way...
Louis

Small quibble,

I think voting is a right and not a duty. Until we have "none of the above" on the election card, I think that not voting is a legitimate choice. I have chosen that option on occasion.

EDIT to add: I really want "none of the above" as an option. Then if say 50% vote "none of the above" it should make the election irrelevant and new candidates provided.

I think your clarification suits me down to the ground, especially as I've also chosen not to vote more than once.

I think you're right, a "none of the above" option is needed.

Louis



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,22:53   


PLEASE, SHARE MORE OF YOUR OPINIONS

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,02:24   

Arden, 'Ras, you're both so funny I'm just going to let you wallow in the juices of your own amusement.

Have fun together.*

Louis

*Ew.

--------------
Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,08:14   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 15 2008,02:24)
Arden, 'Ras, you're both so funny I'm just going to let you wallow in the juices of your own amusement.

Have fun together.*

Louis

*Ew.

I think that Arden and 'ras are revealed as sexists as they both posted pictures of dogs without lipstick - clearly a sexist slight at Palin.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,08:42   

Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 15 2008,14:14)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 15 2008,02:24)
Arden, 'Ras, you're both so funny I'm just going to let you wallow in the juices of your own amusement.

Have fun together.*

Louis

*Ew.

I think that Arden and 'ras are revealed as sexists as they both posted pictures of dogs without lipstick - clearly a sexist slight at Palin.

Indubitab.....Undoubte....indubundoubte....

Yeah, you're right.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,10:53   

My alma mater's 15 minutes of fame start tonight! Go Hofstra!

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,10:57   

McCain's gonna need something big at Hofstra. He just dropped below 20% on Intrade for the first time.I will be watching attentively.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,11:06   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,10:57)
McCain's gonna need something big at Hofstra. He just dropped below 20% on Intrade for the first time.I will be watching attentively.

WWMD?  (What Will McCain Do?)

Foam-flecked Spittle?
Heart Attack?
Wild swing that fails to connect?

* Deaths-head grin and creepy smiles don't count - they're guaranteed

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,11:15   

Obama:

Quote
I will also issue an Executive Order establishing clear guidelines for the review and release of publicly-sponsored research, guaranteeing that results are released in a timely manner and are not distorted by ideological biases. In addition, I will strengthen protections for "whistleblowers" who report on any government attempts to distort or ignore scientific research. And I will establish clear guidelines for selecting and vetting members of science and technology advisory committees for the White House and government agencies on the basis of merit.


A president who treats scientific knowledge as knowledge? Could it be?

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,11:24   

"You probably saw this on the news. A woman at a John McCain rally said that Barack Obama is an Arab. And McCain quickly corrected her. It was really awkward, because McCain had to tell her, 'Look, Governor Palin, you are wrong.'" --Jay Leno

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,11:31   

For David, my take on the Stanley Kurtz incident.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,11:34   

Early Voters favoring Obama in multiple swing states (according to poll)

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,11:37   

washingtonmonthly:

Quote
* There are several new national polls out today. Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg shows Obama leading McCain by nine (50% to 41%); Ipsos/McClatchy shows Obama leading McCain by nine (51% to 42%); and the Pew Research Center shows Obama leading McCain by 10 (50% to 40%).


I took my love, I took it down
Climbed a mountain and I turned around
I saw my reflection in the snow covered hills....

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,11:47   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 15 2008,11:31)
For David, my take on the Stanley Kurtz incident.

Thanks Wes.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,11:59   

Quote
"You have to pinch yourself – a Marxisant radical who all his life has been mentored by, sat at the feet of, worshipped with, befriended, endorsed the philosophy of, funded and been in turn funded, politically promoted and supported by a nexus comprising black power anti-white racists, Jew-haters, revolutionary Marxists, unrepentant former terrorists and Chicago mobsters, is on the verge of becoming President of the United States. And apparently it’s considered impolite to say so," - Melanie Phillips, the Spectator.


Check out Andrew Sullivan today 3 or 4 mind-boggling stories of what the GOP is turning into.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,12:19   

The Intrade contracts right now are

Obama: 82
McCain: 18.6

If I had lots of disposable cash I would buy McCain contracts right now. He's almost certainly going to lose, but the media is thoroughly bored of the race and will surely seize on something in the next three weeks to pretend it's competitive and exciting, and McCain's numbers will rise a bit.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,13:03   

Poe's Law as applied to wingnuts: I just saw a letter writer to Salon seriously call Black people 'Stalinists' because they vote Democratic so heavily.

So does that mean that more than half of all Americans are Stalinists? Or only Black people?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,15:39   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,11:34)
Early Voters favoring Obama in multiple swing states (according to poll)

Hot dang!  My state is the only bluish one in a sea of Bubbatude, ya'll!

Weird, actually...

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,16:15   

Ross Doot-hat, understanding that a purity purge would take the GOP from 'intensive care' to 'greasy spot on the pavement', tries to talk some sense into the morons in the Corner:

Quote
...an American conservative movement that consists entirely of those pundits with the rock-hard testicular fortitude required to never take sides against the family seems like a pretty small tent at this point. And if I were Hanson or Levin or Steyn I'd be devoting a little less time to ritual denunciations of heretics and RINOs, and at least a little more time to figuring out how to build the sort of ship that will make the rats of the DC/NY corridor want to scramble back on board, however much it makes you sick to have them back.


No! Get on board Ross you ivy league elitist! A serial liar incapable of giving a press conference is the new Reagan! Starbursts are shooting through the TV screen! Hey guys I think the cute waitress really actually digs me! I'm going to give her a huge tip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111

(edated for teh speling)

Edited by stevestory on Oct. 15 2008,17:16

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,16:15   

(via Sullivan FYI)

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,16:46   

I have come to despise the Obama campaign and many of its supporters for playing the race card so often. When they painted Clinton a racist, I thought it was absurd but in a funny sorta way. But I have now seen it played so often that I am desensitized to any legitimate claim of racism. It reminds me of the first time I went to San Francisco. Came out of my hotel and there was a beggar. I gave some money. Walking to the Moscone Center, I encountered another beggar on the next corner. Some more money. Then another and another and another and pretty soon I didn’t even see them any more.

Here we have another example, the consummate jackass Murtha saying Western PA is racist, but, no fears, Obama should win.

I wonder if this will continue in the coming Obama presidency? Of course we know you’ll support the president on this bill…after all, you’re not a racist, are you?

This boils down to an argument by intimidation. If there is a Bradley effect, it will be impossible to determine how much is due to actual racism and how much is due to people simply afraid of being called a racist.

Bastards.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,17:16   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 15 2008,16:46)
I have come to despise the Obama campaign and many of its supporters for playing the race card so often. When they painted Clinton a racist, I thought it was absurd but in a funny sorta way. But I have now seen it played so often that I am desensitized to any legitimate claim of racism.

Good for you, Dave, stick to your guns on this one. And what ever you do, don't look here and, by all means possible, don't watch the video.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,17:19   

Err, "appalacia" being very racist isn't exactly news. This is the land where almost every house flies a rebel flag. The primary vote in the area was ludicrously lop-sided, far moreso than any other part of the country.

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,17:20   

Well, it could have been Major Major Major Major.....

Unto us is born a daughter, which is Sarah McCain Palin Ciptak

 
Quote
Ciptak broke the news to his wife Monday after he was contacted by the Times-News. The newspaper learned of the baby’s name through a routine birth announcement area hospitals give to the media.

“To be sure, she was not quite fond of me or of what I had done, but we’ve had some time to talk it over, and she has been really supportive through it all. With so much going on, she told me that made it a little easier to absorb,” said Ciptak.

Ciptak said Monday he picked the name as a way to support the John McCain/Sarah Palin presidential ticket.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,17:44   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 15 2008,14:46)
I have come to despise the Obama campaign and many of its supporters for playing the race card so often.

Dave? A new concept you might want to look into?

P*R*O*J*E*C*T*I*O*N.

 
Quote

This boils down to an argument by intimidation. If there is a Bradley effect, it will be impossible to determine how much is due to actual racism and how much is due to people simply afraid of being called a racist.


What on earth is your point here? You're angry that actual racists are being intimidated into voting for Obama for fear of being called racists?

If that's the worst intimidation you can find happening to Republicans this fall, I don't think you have any reason to complain.

BTW, I know that loony rightwing blogs are a dime a dozen, but here's a new find from some 'PUMA' from Texas who's completely obsessed with Obama being an Indonesian citizen born in Kenya. (DaveScot probably has it bookmarked.) Fuck the certification of live birth from the hospital and the announcement in a contemporary Honolulu paper, OBAMA'S A MOOSLEM AYRAB FROM INDONESIA!!!!111!!

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,18:10   

In other news, Ohio would be nice, but technically it's not even necessary anymore:

 
Quote
A new CNN poll seems to confirm a finding we began to see last week: Barack Obama is out to a big lead in Virginia, the state that could hand the Democratic nominee the win and the presidency.

Last Monday, two pollsters released numbers showing Obama leading John McCain by double digits in the state. Today, CNN shows 53 percent of likely voters breaking for him, compared with 43 percent for McCain.

As I noted in a post last week, Virginia may very well prove to be the key to this election. If Obama can hold all of the states John Kerry won in 2004 -- and at this point, that seems very likely -- and add Iowa to his column, something polls have consistently predicted, then a win in Virginia would give him 272 Electoral College votes, two more than the magic number needed for victory.


This would hold even if Obama simultaneously lost WV, NC, FL, OH, CO, NM & NV.

(from Salon)

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,18:41   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 15 2008,18:44)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 15 2008,14:46)
I have come to despise the Obama campaign and many of its supporters for playing the race card so often.

Dave? A new concept you might want to look into?

P*R*O*J*E*C*T*I*O*N.

Heddle's still anglin' for that privileged contributor spot at UD.  Davetard thinks Obama's obsessed with race too.

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,18:51   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 15 2008,17:16)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 15 2008,16:46)
I have come to despise the Obama campaign and many of its supporters for playing the race card so often. When they painted Clinton a racist, I thought it was absurd but in a funny sorta way. But I have now seen it played so often that I am desensitized to any legitimate claim of racism.

Good for you, Dave, stick to your guns on this one. And what ever you do, don't look here and, by all means possible, don't watch the video.

Murtha didn't say "there are racists in Western PA, and here is an example." That would qualify as a "duh." He painted an entire region with a broad brush.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,18:54   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 15 2008,17:44)
Dave? A new concept you might want to look into?

P*R*O*J*E*C*T*I*O*N.

Ooh, a variant of the same technique!

You have learned well, Obi-Won.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,19:00   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 15 2008,17:44)
What on earth is your point here? You're angry that actual racists are being intimidated into voting for Obama for fear of being called racists?

No, I don't care if you take actual racists out and shoot them like vermin.

What I find unsavory, but I'm just an overly sensitive fellow, is that "racism" is more and more (or maybe I just didn't notice before since I didn't pay much attention pre-Palin) a catch-all explanation for everything that could possibly go wrong for Obama, including the unthinkable possibility of a Democrat voting for McCain.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,19:02   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 15 2008,16:54)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 15 2008,17:44)
Dave? A new concept you might want to look into?

P*R*O*J*E*C*T*I*O*N.

Ooh, a variant of the same technique!

You have learned well, Obi-Won.

Devastating riposte, Dave. Bravo.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,19:02   

I will be glad when this political period is over. T'were best t'were done soon, and with as little name-calling as possible.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,19:08   

CHat-field
You made rain for L.A.
We've got ten grand
For you to go cook us some rain
Science from the cooking pot mixing up with the air
Feeling thunder
Nights since they have started
Now the clouds won't stay apart
A little California voodoo
Care of CHatfield and his brother (Louis?)...

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,19:09   

More Racism!

Registrations must be validated!

The Revolution will not be televised, at least not in HD!

Murtha reacts: "Our neighbor to the west is a racist state!"

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,19:12   

Dave, dave dave. Dave:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DmYLrxR0Y8

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,19:18   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,19:12)
Dave, dave dave. Dave:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DmYLrxR0Y8

OK, to add some further jocularity I have to say I found this hilarious.

HT Pharyngula

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,19:32   

That music was for us as much as anybody. Heddle's not evil like UD, and so we shouldn't gleefully mock him, even if, as Jeeves would say, 'there might bear a certain resemblance between the logical methodologies, Sir.'

Edited by stevestory on Oct. 15 2008,20:35

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,20:03   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 15 2008,17:09)
More Racism!

[URL=http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/10/The Revolution will not be televised, at least not in HD!

Murtha reacts: "Our neighbor to the west is a racist sjennifer_brunner_says_courts_d.html]Registrations must be validated![/URL]

tate!"

Definitely don't look here, either, Dave.

probably the money shot:

 
Quote
“He’s going to tear up the rose bushes and plant a watermelon patch,” said James Halsey, chuckling, while standing in the Wal-Mart parking lot with fellow workers in the environmental cleanup business. “I just don’t think we’ll ever have a black president.”


This ain't bad either:

 
Quote
Jim Pagans, a retired software manager, interviewed in a strip mall parking lot in Roanoke, Va., said that while Mr. Obama was “half-Caucasian,” he had the characteristics of blacks.

“But you look at his background, you don’t think of that,” he said. “He’s more intelligent and a smarter person than McCain.”


I know, I know, this is too easy.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,20:04   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,17:08)
CHat-field
You made rain for L.A.
We've got ten grand
For you to go cook us some rain
Science from the cooking pot mixing up with the air
Feeling thunder
Nights since they have started
Now the clouds won't stay apart
A little California voodoo
Care of CHatfield and his brother (Louis?)...

I assume this is some kind of pop culture reference here, but I confess I have no idea what it refers to.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,20:15   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 15 2008,20:00)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 15 2008,17:44)
What on earth is your point here? You're angry that actual racists are being intimidated into voting for Obama for fear of being called racists?

No, I don't care if you take actual racists out and shoot them like vermin.

What I find unsavory, but I'm just an overly sensitive fellow, is that "racism" is more and more (or maybe I just didn't notice before since I didn't pay much attention pre-Palin) a catch-all explanation for everything that could possibly go wrong for Obama, including the unthinkable possibility of a Democrat voting for McCain.

And I'm sure you are also refusing to vote for Palin since everything bad said about her is clearly just because of sexism. Right?

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,20:15   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 15 2008,20:04)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,17:08)
CHat-field
You made rain for L.A.
We've got ten grand
For you to go cook us some rain
Science from the cooking pot mixing up with the air
Feeling thunder
Nights since they have started
Now the clouds won't stay apart
A little California voodoo
Care of CHatfield and his brother (Louis?)...

I assume this is some kind of pop culture reference here, but I confess I have no idea what it refers to.

This might help.

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,20:45   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 15 2008,20:04)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,17:08)
CHat-field
You made rain for L.A.
We've got ten grand
For you to go cook us some rain
Science from the cooking pot mixing up with the air
Feeling thunder
Nights since they have started
Now the clouds won't stay apart
A little California voodoo
Care of CHatfield and his brother (Louis?)...

I assume this is some kind of pop culture reference here, but I confess I have no idea what it refers to.

I'm guessing TeveTory found some good cow poop shrooms and shared them with our little Stevie.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,20:54   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 15 2008,20:15)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 15 2008,20:00)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 15 2008,17:44)
What on earth is your point here? You're angry that actual racists are being intimidated into voting for Obama for fear of being called racists?

No, I don't care if you take actual racists out and shoot them like vermin.

What I find unsavory, but I'm just an overly sensitive fellow, is that "racism" is more and more (or maybe I just didn't notice before since I didn't pay much attention pre-Palin) a catch-all explanation for everything that could possibly go wrong for Obama, including the unthinkable possibility of a Democrat voting for McCain.

And I'm sure you are also refusing to vote for Palin since everything bad said about her is clearly just because of sexism. Right?

Uh, no. The accurate comparison is that I wouldn't imply that someone who isn't voting for Palin is sexist. I wouldn't say, Murtha-like, "Southwestern Wyoming is sexist, but, don't worry, McCain and Palin will still win the state."

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,20:58   

I am taking a nausea break from McCain's stream of BS.

A nice glass of Macallan will do the needed adjustment.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,22:21   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Oct. 15 2008,19:58)
I am taking a nausea break from McCain's stream of BS.

A nice glass of Macallan will do the needed adjustment.

I'm assuming that your break was taken from the debate? I had to dip into a cheap Fonseca port to make it through. (Probably would have done that anyway.)

I will disagree that McCain's output was a stream of BS.

"Stream", for me at least, implies something flowing and continuous and what I watched was choppy and and disconnected, though the BS is not in question.

ETA: Thanks for allowing me the edit button Dr. Wesley....[turns to FTK]...pphhhhhht!!!onehundredeleventyone!!!

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"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
celdd



Posts: 18
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,22:55   

Well, McCain just proposed that military personnel, upon discharge,  could be used to teach in our schools.  And, no need to mess with those messy qualification tests, or other certification requirements.

He didn't mention if those army-to-teaching personnel would need a high school diploma, a college degree, or a graduate degree resulting in a teaching credential (a state license to teach).

If you served in the Army, according to McCain, you can teach.  And that the army teachers would be an improvement to the teachers we have now.  

I and my daughter who is planning to enter a credential program in the spring went nuts!  How can he be so ignorant on the qualifications needed for teachers?

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,23:16   

Quote (celdd @ Oct. 15 2008,20:55)
If you served in the Army, according to McCain, you can teach.  And that the army teachers would be an improvement to the teachers we have now.  

Well, Lynndie England probably needs a job. Solves her problems in one stroke.

When I was a kid, the stereotype was that gym teachers were all retired military types. I think they were required to get some kind of credential, tho.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,00:18   

Pwned. All anyone can say.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,00:39   

He could have prefaced that with, "Turn up your hearing-aid, John."

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,00:45   

There's an episode of "Made in Canada" ('Goodbye') that features a mayoral debate in Toronto between the slimy incumbent and a reformist challenger. The mayor had an ad campaign accusing his challenger of not having spoken to her daughter for six years, and brought it up during the debate, "Why haven't your spoken to your own daughter?" And she replies, "I speak to my daughter all the time; she doesn't speak to me because she is in a coma."

The Obama/McCain moment is the more stunning for being non-fictional.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,00:47   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 15 2008,23:16)
Quote (celdd @ Oct. 15 2008,20:55)
If you served in the Army, according to McCain, you can teach.  And that the army teachers would be an improvement to the teachers we have now.  

Well, Lynndie England probably needs a job. Solves her problems in one stroke.

When I was a kid, the stereotype was that gym teachers were all retired military types. I think they were required to get some kind of credential, tho.

I got received my teaching certification after graduate courses, two state tests, and a year as a teacher of record in a classroom, and my course was shorter (if more intense) than some alternative certification programs.  The idea that anyone can teach is a joke.  As ex-Army, while the Army taught many things, including some instruction (for adults who were a captive audience and under disciplinary actions more severe than any school) - they don't work on kids of any age.  Of course, since some Repubs think that the "naked human pyramid" was like college stunts or cheerleading, maybe Ms England could teach gym class.  Can't wait for the lawsuits on that one.....

There are troops-to-teacher programs (for example: http://www.esc13.net/troops/).  While the current standards for promotion (in the military) require advanced education, in the Tx program, the standard is:
"You will need to complete a Bachelor's degree in order to become a teacher.  You may wish to complete the degree and teacher certification together in a college of education at a Texas university or college.  Or you may choose to complete a degree and then achieve the certification later through a university post-baccalaureate or masters program or through an alternative certification program."

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,06:20   

On the one hand, Repubs bash the state of US education every chance they get.  If it's so bad, why aren't they talking about making teaching requirements more stringent instead of less?

Considering that McCain (barely) was graduated from Annapolis, it's not a surprise that he thinks military folks make the best teachers.  Just an extension of the fact that many who attended school automatically deem themselves experts on education.

--------------
Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,07:28   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,12:19)
The Intrade contracts right now are

Obama: 82
McCain: 18.6

If I had lots of disposable cash I would buy McCain contracts right now. He's almost certainly going to lose, but the media is thoroughly bored of the race and will surely seize on something in the next three weeks to pretend it's competitive and exciting, and McCain's numbers will rise a bit.

I still think that Obama will lose. I hope I am wrong.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,08:00   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 16 2008,13:28)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,12:19)
The Intrade contracts right now are

Obama: 82
McCain: 18.6

If I had lots of disposable cash I would buy McCain contracts right now. He's almost certainly going to lose, but the media is thoroughly bored of the race and will surely seize on something in the next three weeks to pretend it's competitive and exciting, and McCain's numbers will rise a bit.

I still think that Obama will lose. I hope I am wrong.

I'm afraid you might be right, I have several friends who are betting heavily on Obama losing.

I'm not sure which way it'll go, my opinion depends on what I've just read on the matter!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,08:25   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 16 2008,08:00)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 16 2008,13:28)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,12:19)
The Intrade contracts right now are

Obama: 82
McCain: 18.6

If I had lots of disposable cash I would buy McCain contracts right now. He's almost certainly going to lose, but the media is thoroughly bored of the race and will surely seize on something in the next three weeks to pretend it's competitive and exciting, and McCain's numbers will rise a bit.

I still think that Obama will lose. I hope I am wrong.

I'm afraid you might be right, I have several friends who are betting heavily on Obama losing.

I'm not sure which way it'll go, my opinion depends on what I've just read on the matter!

Louis

Not to worry!  Despite what the pundits would have you believe, the focus groups (even FAUX!) all have big Obama wins for the last debate.  The only thing McSame won was the "Grimacing" battle on UTube.  

Get used to saying "President Obama".  It will be a landslide victory.

McSame will be just a footnote in history, and Palin will go back to fleecing her constituents in AK, until they vote her out at the next election.  If her and First Stalker aren't convicted of fraud in the building of her house, they will have long and illustrious careers in the exciting world of Religious Teaching.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,09:40   

Waiting for lolcat treatment.



--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,09:50   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 16 2008,15:40)
Waiting for lolcat treatment.


I'm going to hate myself for saying it, but is Palin under the desk?*

Louis

*Hmmm it turns out I didn't hate myself for saying it. Yay me!

--------------
Bye.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,09:56   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 16 2008,09:40)
Waiting for lolcat treatment.


I'll tie this election up in court forever unless you give me one million dollars!

{sotto voce from stage right: Billion, not  million}

One billion dollars!

Added in edit:


--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,10:01   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 16 2008,06:00)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 16 2008,13:28)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,12:19)
The Intrade contracts right now are

Obama: 82
McCain: 18.6

If I had lots of disposable cash I would buy McCain contracts right now. He's almost certainly going to lose, but the media is thoroughly bored of the race and will surely seize on something in the next three weeks to pretend it's competitive and exciting, and McCain's numbers will rise a bit.

I still think that Obama will lose. I hope I am wrong.

I'm afraid you might be right, I have several friends who are betting heavily on Obama losing.

I'm not sure which way it'll go, my opinion depends on what I've just read on the matter!

Louis

I know several black people who are convinced that 'they won't let Obama win'. Who am I to say they're wrong?

But one way this is different is that this year the margin isn't close. When the margin is razor thin, like it was in 2000 in FL and in 2004 in OH, that's when the potential for fraud goes thru the ceiling. Fuck up one or two counties in one state and you can steal the whole thing. But the GOP would have to do that to like 8 states this year, many of which are *not* as close as OH & FL were. An election is only really stealable when it's close, and this is not 2000 or 2004. From how things have been going the last few weeks, McCain's people could steal OH, FL and CO and Obama would still win, if he just added ~2 states to Kerry's total. Obama needs a big margin to win safely, and he looks to have that.

But I won't be resting easy til Nov. 5, either. Hopefully I won't have to eat these words next month.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,10:43   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 15 2008,21:45)
I'm guessing TeveTory found some good cow poop shrooms and shared them with our little Stevie.

Teve Tory wishes. It's been a complete wash.  ???

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,10:48   

I was very tired last night and fell asleep during the debate, woke up for a little while, fell asleep again. I was pissed about missing the debate, really wanted to know what happened. But I just checked Intrade and McCain's chances have fallen to 13%, so I guess whatever happened, it wasn't a big win for him.

   
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,10:52   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 15 2008,20:03)
Definitely don't look here, either, Dave.

probably the money shot:

   
Quote
“He’s going to tear up the rose bushes and plant a watermelon patch,” said James Halsey, chuckling, while standing in the Wal-Mart parking lot with fellow workers in the environmental cleanup business. “I just don’t think we’ll ever have a black president.”


This ain't bad either:

   
Quote
Jim Pagans, a retired software manager, interviewed in a strip mall parking lot in Roanoke, Va., said that while Mr. Obama was “half-Caucasian,” he had the characteristics of blacks.

“But you look at his background, you don’t think of that,” he said. “He’s more intelligent and a smarter person than McCain.”


I know, I know, this is too easy.

LMAO,  yea and he's gonna put rims on Air Force One and ride a BMX bike to KFC everyday when he wakes up at noon ::rolleyes::

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,10:55   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 16 2008,10:43)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 15 2008,21:45)
I'm guessing TeveTory found some good cow poop shrooms and shared them with our little Stevie.

Teve Tory wishes. It's been a complete wash.  ???

Teve must be totally bummed after spending time up close and personal with matter that is both earth-toned and odiferous without finding any of what he sought.  ;)

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:03   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 16 2008,08:43)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 15 2008,21:45)
I'm guessing TeveTory found some good cow poop shrooms and shared them with our little Stevie.

Teve Tory wishes. It's been a complete wash.  ???

Well fuck, ya gotta wash 'em before you eat 'em.  :O

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:05   

Arden and others have hit on something that’s been bouncing around my head.

The what-if-Obama-lost question.  Now, I’m not talking about something drastically changing people’s opinion of him and there is no question as to why e.g. video where he clubs a baby seal with a burning a flag whilst, and at the same time, proclaiming the superiority of futbol to football.  I mean if there was a combination of the Bradley Effect, swing voters, and whatever else that McCain won.  Even just the suspicion of an election being stolen might have a bigger impact on the country than last time.

One of the biggest impacts Obama has had on this election is the increase of new voters; from the typically apathetic college crowd to the typically distrustful minority voters.  They have been added to both sides but Democrats seem to have the majority.  In general, they seem to have finally been convinced that their vote matters and that they can make a difference.  That being the case, if Obama were to lose, I have been wondering if we’d have a huge backlash against voting for generations.  It might further galvanize people to vote again, but I’m wondering if it wouldn’t turn people off voting for good.  (This may be a reason for Erasmus to vote for McCain ;) )

Then, of course, there is the racial issue.  However we want to discuss it, there will be people voting purely on race this year.  Voting for Obama based only on skin is no less stupid than voting against him for the same reason.  We would be naïve to think it isn’t happening but how much of an impact it will have is anyone’s guess.  But there seems to be a sense of entitlement (another terrible idea in politics) among some black communities, such as Philadelphia (quick note: I’m not saying all, but from what I read and hear about ‘it’s our time’ and being ‘due’ and all similar comments, there seems to be a strong sense of ‘about time!’ beyond excitement.  Some women also had this with Clinton and do with Palin).  I think if Obama were to lose and there was even the smallest of a question of legitimacy, race riots would not surprise me.  There are some people that have placed so much on his candidacy (IMO too much) that if it were taken away, the anger roused would be palpable.

Don’t get me wrong; I think it is a terrible idea to vote for someone out of fear of what might happen in a highly hypothetical situation.  I’m not even sure that it would happen, but just kind of judging the anger that followed the last two elections and adding in a racial element…just wondering what would happen.  I also don’t mean to sound like a Chicken Little, but as far as our country has progressed in race relations, we are very blind to the shortfalls that we still have and how far we have to go.

I, too, can’t wait until this election is over…it bothers me that the majority of my posts have been on this topic.  My own fault but it just kind of dominates.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:10   

The only thing I remember from the debates was 1 who is this plumber joe guy, and why's he so important. 2 everytime the stage-right camera showed McCain, Obama was grinning about whatever McCain was talking about. I didn't know if that would look domineering or patronizing. From the Intrade numbers this morning, I guess domineering.

Maybe he'll change the national anthem to Usher's Yeah.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:15   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Oct. 16 2008,12:05)
Then, of course, there is the racial issue.  However we want to discuss it, there will be people voting purely on race this year.  Voting for Obama based only on skin is no less stupid than voting against him for the same reason.  We would be naïve to think it isn’t happening but how much of an impact it will have is anyone’s guess.  But there seems to be a sense of entitlement (another terrible idea in politics) among some black communities, such as Philadelphia (quick note: I’m not saying all, but from what I read and hear about ‘it’s our time’ and being ‘due’ and all similar comments, there seems to be a strong sense of ‘about time!’ beyond excitement.  Some women also had this with Clinton and do with Palin).  I think if Obama were to lose and there was even the smallest of a question of legitimacy, race riots would not surprise me.  There are some people that have placed so much on his candidacy (IMO too much) that if it were taken away, the anger roused would be palpable.

The black people I know expect Obama either won't win or will be assassinated if he does. There's not going to be any rioting from them.

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:17   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 16 2008,10:01)
I know several black people who are convinced that 'they won't let Obama win'. Who am I to say they're wrong?

Sombody rational, I hope. Who are "they"? Rove and a team of ninjas? The researchers at the Pentegon who invented HIV? The Jews who brought down the WTC?

You ought to say to them: Are you friggin' nuts?

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:24   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 16 2008,11:55)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 16 2008,10:43)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 15 2008,21:45)
I'm guessing TeveTory found some good cow poop shrooms and shared them with our little Stevie.

Teve Tory wishes. It's been a complete wash.  ???

Teve must be totally bummed after spending time up close and personal with matter that is both earth-toned and odiferous without finding any of what he sought.  ;)

The funny thing about cows is how skittish they are. Last night here I am--I mean, here Teve Tory is--charging about in cow pastures at 4 am with a flashlight, perhaps with a snifter of brandy in him*, and just for amusement wanting to scratch these creatures behind the ear, and these 600 lb beasts won't let you get within 10 feet without lunging away. I mean, Teve Tory with a flashlight, while somewhat athletic, is not exactly Brock Sampson with a ka-bar and a penchant for steak-on-the-hoof.

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:26   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 16 2008,11:17)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 16 2008,10:01)
I know several black people who are convinced that 'they won't let Obama win'. Who am I to say they're wrong?

Sombody rational, I hope. Who are "they"? Rove and a team of ninjas? The researchers at the Pentegon who invented HIV? The Jews who brought down the WTC?

You ought to say to them: Are you friggin' nuts?

I'd have to say "they" are whoever can pay the hackers the most amount of money to alter the results on the pitifully poorly protected voting machines.

This "lowest bidder" stuff sure is dumb for some things.

Quote
You ought to say to them: Are you friggin' nuts?


Considering the very odd results on occasion in the last election (more people voting then people able to vote, that sort of thing) I don't think it can be ruled out 100%.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:28   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 16 2008,09:17)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 16 2008,10:01)
I know several black people who are convinced that 'they won't let Obama win'. Who am I to say they're wrong?

Sombody rational, I hope. Who are "they"? Rove and a team of ninjas? The researchers at the Pentegon who invented HIV? The Jews who brought down the WTC?

You ought to say to them: Are you friggin' nuts?

You first, Dave.

What can I say, Republicans have a lot more faith in the electoral process than everyone else, with good reason. I don't see the Supreme Court stepping in to help Obama.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:30   

*(snifter of brandy = half a bottle of Burnett's vodka)

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:39   

Disappointed at having missed half the debate last night, i check the liberal blogs, and there's no worries there, but just to make sure I'm not living in a bubble, I hold my nose and go, for the first time in months, to the biggest collection of right-wing hacks there is, the Corner. First post at the moment, by Richie Starburst:

Quote

Last Night   [Rich Lowry]

Here's my take from the New York Post (noted in the briefing). McCain tried very hard, and probably did better than before, but he's just not a very good debater (check out Jay's excellent points) and not a very reassuring presence. He doesn't come off as an elder statesman, unfortunately. It's Obama who appears at these forums to be a, I don't know what, a younger statesman? But he's always calm and explains himself very well. I'm hoping that Dick Morris is right that McCain found an issue on taxes on Joe the Plumber, but McCain would be in a much better position to attack here if he had endorsed (I know, I know I'm boring myself) a substantial middle-class tax cut. See Ross on this.


So yeah McCain must have bombed last night, if this weak tea is all the hackish Corner can offer.

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:40   

http://news.yahoo.com/s....ama_odd
Quote
DUBLIN (Reuters) - Ireland's biggest bookmaker Paddy Power said Thursday it would pay out early more than 1 million euros (782,776 pounds) on bets that Barack Obama will be the next U.S. president, three weeks ahead of the election.
ADVERTISEMENT

The Dublin-based bookmaker said it made the "unprecedented decision" to pay on bets taken so far, following Wednesday's final campaign debate between Obama and his Republican rival John McCain, which polls judged the Democrat to have won.

"We declare this race well and truly over and congratulate all those who backed Obama," Power said.


--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:45   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 16 2008,11:40)
http://news.yahoo.com/s....ama_odd
   
Quote
DUBLIN (Reuters) - Ireland's biggest bookmaker Paddy Power said Thursday it would pay out early more than 1 million euros (782,776 pounds) on bets that Barack Obama will be the next U.S. president, three weeks ahead of the election.
ADVERTISEMENT

The Dublin-based bookmaker said it made the "unprecedented decision" to pay on bets taken so far, following Wednesday's final campaign debate between Obama and his Republican rival John McCain, which polls judged the Democrat to have won.

"We declare this race well and truly over and congratulate all those who backed Obama," Power said.

I saw that--it makes no sense whatsoever. Suspending betting makes perfect sense--but hold on to the payouts as long as you can and earn some interest. There must be an explanation. Am I missing something obvious?

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:53   

CBS and others have filed Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA) complaints against McCain videos hosted on YouTube. As DMCA law stipulates, YouTube responds to the complaints by removing the videos in question.

McCain's campaign legal staff fired off a letter to YouTube complaining about the removal of videos, saying that YouTube should assess "fair use" issues before yanking content at issue.

I've had discussions with intellectual property attorneys about the DMCA before, and what I've been told is that there is no explicit "fair use" exemption when it comes to DMCA-based complaints. The courts have tended to favor those making complaints via the DMCA  over those attempting to use "fair use" principles in their defense. This is a well-known (unintended?) consequence of the DMCA.

YouTube has responded to the McCain campaign, noting that they aren't allowed, by DMCA law, to take the time to investigate "fair use" or any other evaluation of the merit of a DMCA-based complaint, not if they want to take advantage of the "safe harbor" provisions of DMCA for content distributors. They also noted that pragmatically they don't have the resources to act as investigators into the merit of copyright claims, either, and must act promptly to show good faith compliance with those making copyright complaints.

Back in 1998, John McCain voted to pass the DMCA as it stands now. It's nice to know that at least one of our elected representatives has been bitten by this poor piece of law.

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Oct. 16 2008,11:57

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:54   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 16 2008,09:39)
Disappointed at having missed half the debate last night, i check the liberal blogs, and there's no worries there, but just to make sure I'm not living in a bubble, I hold my nose and go, for the first time in months, to the biggest collection of right-wing hacks there is, the Corner. First post at the moment, by Richie Starburst:

Quote

Last Night   [Rich Lowry]

Here's my take from the New York Post (noted in the briefing). McCain tried very hard, and probably did better than before, but he's just not a very good debater (check out Jay's excellent points) and not a very reassuring presence. He doesn't come off as an elder statesman, unfortunately. It's Obama who appears at these forums to be a, I don't know what, a younger statesman? But he's always calm and explains himself very well. I'm hoping that Dick Morris is right that McCain found an issue on taxes on Joe the Plumber, but McCain would be in a much better position to attack here if he had endorsed (I know, I know I'm boring myself) a substantial middle-class tax cut. See Ross on this.

Lowry's just all pissed that McCain didn't wink or shoot any starbursts his way.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:55   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 16 2008,12:45)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 16 2008,11:40)
http://news.yahoo.com/s....ama_odd
     
Quote
DUBLIN (Reuters) - Ireland's biggest bookmaker Paddy Power said Thursday it would pay out early more than 1 million euros (782,776 pounds) on bets that Barack Obama will be the next U.S. president, three weeks ahead of the election.
ADVERTISEMENT

The Dublin-based bookmaker said it made the "unprecedented decision" to pay on bets taken so far, following Wednesday's final campaign debate between Obama and his Republican rival John McCain, which polls judged the Democrat to have won.

"We declare this race well and truly over and congratulate all those who backed Obama," Power said.

I saw that--it makes no sense whatsoever. Suspending betting makes perfect sense--but hold on to the payouts as long as you can and earn some interest. There must be an explanation. Am I missing something obvious?

To be honest, I thought this was odd too.  If for nothing else than the fact that betting houses like to hold on to every cent for as long as they can.

This also reminds me of then they increased the chances that Palin would be dropped from the ticket because of the teenage pregnancy thing.  It's interesting how what is a liability in the politics of one country is nothing (or even an asset) in another.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:58   

'then' to 'when' above

must...earn...edit...button...

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,11:58   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 16 2008,09:45)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 16 2008,11:40)
http://news.yahoo.com/s....ama_odd
     
Quote
DUBLIN (Reuters) - Ireland's biggest bookmaker Paddy Power said Thursday it would pay out early more than 1 million euros (782,776 pounds) on bets that Barack Obama will be the next U.S. president, three weeks ahead of the election.
ADVERTISEMENT

The Dublin-based bookmaker said it made the "unprecedented decision" to pay on bets taken so far, following Wednesday's final campaign debate between Obama and his Republican rival John McCain, which polls judged the Democrat to have won.

"We declare this race well and truly over and congratulate all those who backed Obama," Power said.

I saw that--it makes no sense whatsoever. Suspending betting makes perfect sense--but hold on to the payouts as long as you can and earn some interest. There must be an explanation. Am I missing something obvious?

Simple long-term business sense.  A lot of punters could probably use the money right now.  If Power lets them have their winnings today, which bookie will they go to next time?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,12:02   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 16 2008,12:58)
Simple long-term business sense.  A lot of punters could probably use the money right now.  If Power lets them have their winnings today, which bookie will they go to next time?

Hmm...interesting idea.  I guess it makes sense in that way, but it still seems odd to me.  Oh well.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,12:10   

Obama cautions against overconfidence.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,12:14   

Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 16 2008,08:25)
 
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 16 2008,08:00)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 16 2008,13:28)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,12:19)
The Intrade contracts right now are

Obama: 82
McCain: 18.6

If I had lots of disposable cash I would buy McCain contracts right now. He's almost certainly going to lose, but the media is thoroughly bored of the race and will surely seize on something in the next three weeks to pretend it's competitive and exciting, and McCain's numbers will rise a bit.

I still think that Obama will lose. I hope I am wrong.

I'm afraid you might be right, I have several friends who are betting heavily on Obama losing.

I'm not sure which way it'll go, my opinion depends on what I've just read on the matter!

Louis

Not to worry!  Despite what the pundits would have you believe, the focus groups (even FAUX!) all have big Obama wins for the last debate.  The only thing McSame won was the "Grimacing" battle on UTube.  

Get used to saying "President Obama".  It will be a landslide victory.

McSame will be just a footnote in history, and Palin will go back to fleecing her constituents in AK, until they vote her out at the next election.  If her and First Stalker aren't convicted of fraud in the building of her house, they will have long and illustrious careers in the exciting world of Religious Teaching.

I would not mind seeing/saying "president Obama", I just doubt that he will win. Like I said, I hope I am wrong as the Republicans are quite scary. I just have a little niggle that people are saying they will vote Obama but renege when it comes to actually voting. I also expect a large % of whiteys who would not normally vote to come out to prevent a black president getting elected. We shall see and I hope you can point at this post and do a "HA! HA!" in a few weeks time.

Anyway, whatever happens the future does look interesting.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,12:16   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 16 2008,16:01)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 16 2008,06:00)
   
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 16 2008,13:28)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,12:19)
The Intrade contracts right now are

Obama: 82
McCain: 18.6

If I had lots of disposable cash I would buy McCain contracts right now. He's almost certainly going to lose, but the media is thoroughly bored of the race and will surely seize on something in the next three weeks to pretend it's competitive and exciting, and McCain's numbers will rise a bit.

I still think that Obama will lose. I hope I am wrong.

I'm afraid you might be right, I have several friends who are betting heavily on Obama losing.

I'm not sure which way it'll go, my opinion depends on what I've just read on the matter!

Louis

I know several black people who are convinced that 'they won't let Obama win'. Who am I to say they're wrong?

[SNIP]

Dammit now look what you made me do. I'm going to agree with Heddle. I hope you're proud of yourself.

{shakes fist, scowls}

:angry:

I think, despite the demonstrable and despicable actions of previous elections, that as you have said this is not going to be an easy steal. If "steal" it ever is. I seriously doubt these conspiracy theories and wouldn't give them any sane credence. Argue with your black chums! I think, on my pessimistic days, that the Bradley effect will do it's work without intervention.

Now what Steve said about Obama being elected and then assassinated I can see happening. I really can see some lone racist gun nut blowing a black president away. I don't think it requires any conspiracy drivel at all.

The level of racist rhetoric being splashed about by the conservative side of the equation is unbelievable (to us elitist Yurpeens). And this is from main stream sources and "people on the street" televised interviews etc. In the UK and Europe that kind of expression is simply not mainstream at all. It would most likely simply not make it to broadcast at all as it reflects only the nuttier fringe of society. Racists over here have to be very subtle, and even then they get a good kicking. And before some fruitcake says different, even muslim/brown racists get their comeuppance. The government rushed through "anti-terror" legislation to stop the combined hysteria of the Home Counties when they were confronted with someone who was a little be freer with his advocacy of death to the imperialist oppressors! The less said about THAT the better. Bloody government. Grrrr.

It's one of those strange cultural things race relations in the USA. The USA is a country I admire as being so far ahead of we others in many positive senses, but in some ways you chaps are back in the frigging Dark Ages. (So I don't universally love everything about the USA, sue me!;) The apparent racial division in your society seems vastly more profound that it does here. And yes, I realise that's a subjective impression, and yes, I realise that we have our problems too (oh boy do we).

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,12:34   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Oct. 16 2008,12:55)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 16 2008,12:45)
 
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 16 2008,11:40)
http://news.yahoo.com/s....ama_odd
       
Quote
DUBLIN (Reuters) - Ireland's biggest bookmaker Paddy Power said Thursday it would pay out early more than 1 million euros (782,776 pounds) on bets that Barack Obama will be the next U.S. president, three weeks ahead of the election.
ADVERTISEMENT

The Dublin-based bookmaker said it made the "unprecedented decision" to pay on bets taken so far, following Wednesday's final campaign debate between Obama and his Republican rival John McCain, which polls judged the Democrat to have won.

"We declare this race well and truly over and congratulate all those who backed Obama," Power said.

I saw that--it makes no sense whatsoever. Suspending betting makes perfect sense--but hold on to the payouts as long as you can and earn some interest. There must be an explanation. Am I missing something obvious?

To be honest, I thought this was odd too.  If for nothing else than the fact that betting houses like to hold on to every cent for as long as they can.

This also reminds me of then they increased the chances that Palin would be dropped from the ticket because of the teenage pregnancy thing.  It's interesting how what is a liability in the politics of one country is nothing (or even an asset) in another.

this does seem frightfully weird. Why not just suspend all betting on Obama/McCain, and await the outcome? I assume there are operative forces I don't understand which make the decision sensible.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,12:42   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 16 2008,10:16)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 16 2008,16:01)
     
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 16 2008,06:00)
         
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 16 2008,13:28)
         
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2008,12:19)
The Intrade contracts right now are

Obama: 82
McCain: 18.6

If I had lots of disposable cash I would buy McCain contracts right now. He's almost certainly going to lose, but the media is thoroughly bored of the race and will surely seize on something in the next three weeks to pretend it's competitive and exciting, and McCain's numbers will rise a bit.

I still think that Obama will lose. I hope I am wrong.

I'm afraid you might be right, I have several friends who are betting heavily on Obama losing.

I'm not sure which way it'll go, my opinion depends on what I've just read on the matter!

Louis

I know several black people who are convinced that 'they won't let Obama win'. Who am I to say they're wrong?

[SNIP]

Dammit now look what you made me do. I'm going to agree with Heddle. I hope you're proud of yourself.

{shakes fist, scowls}

:angry:

I think, despite the demonstrable and despicable actions of previous elections, that as you have said this is not going to be an easy steal. If "steal" it ever is. I seriously doubt these conspiracy theories and wouldn't give them any sane credence. Argue with your black chums! I think, on my pessimistic days, that the Bradley effect will do it's work without intervention.

Now what Steve said about Obama being elected and then assassinated I can see happening. I really can see some lone racist gun nut blowing a black president away. I don't think it requires any conspiracy drivel at all.

The level of racist rhetoric being splashed about by the conservative side of the equation is unbelievable (to us elitist Yurpeens). And this is from main stream sources and "people on the street" televised interviews etc. In the UK and Europe that kind of expression is simply not mainstream at all. It would most likely simply not make it to broadcast at all as it reflects only the nuttier fringe of society. Racists over here have to be very subtle, and even then they get a good kicking. And before some fruitcake says different, even muslim/brown racists get their comeuppance. The government rushed through "anti-terror" legislation to stop the combined hysteria of the Home Counties when they were confronted with someone who was a little be freer with his advocacy of death to the imperialist oppressors! The less said about THAT the better. Bloody government. Grrrr.

It's one of those strange cultural things race relations in the USA. The USA is a country I admire as being so far ahead of we others in many positive senses, but in some ways you chaps are back in the frigging Dark Ages. (So I don't universally love everything about the USA, sue me!;) The apparent racial division in your society seems vastly more profound that it does here. And yes, I realise that's a subjective impression, and yes, I realise that we have our problems too (oh boy do we).

Louis

   
Quote
The USA is a country I admire as being so far ahead of we others in many positive senses, but in some ways you chaps are back in the frigging Dark Ages. (So I don't universally love everything about the USA, sue me!;)


Go back to Russia, hippie.  :angry:

Anyway, my dear Welsh/Turkish Louis, my point merely is, I can't with a straight face or clear conscience tell any black person, after all that's happened in this country in the last century or two, "Hey, trust the system! America's a fair country!" That's ridiculously presumptious. But I guess if you're on the right side of certain racial/religious/class/political divides, America *is* a totally fair country.

Besides, the system *isn't* secure. Corrupt shit *does* happen. A lot of stuff in the '04 election didn't pass the smell test, and '00 was far worse. I have no idea if Scalia et al will have the *chance* to step in for the GOP, but I have no doubt they would do so if they could, and it wouldn't be for Obama. And there's little things, too, like the fact that the Republican Secretary of State of Colorado has apparently silently purged sth like 150,000 names (correct me if that number's wrong) from Colorado's voter rolls, with no way to get them back and without notification of the purged people. Presumably they'll just show up that Tuesday to be told their name 'isn't on the list'.

Again, I think if the margin is wide, it can't be stolen. If the margin is as narrow as it was in the last 2 elections, it's naive in the extreme to call such notions "conspiracy theories".

Quote
DUBLIN (Reuters) - Ireland's biggest bookmaker Paddy Power said Thursday it would pay out early more than 1 million euros (782,776 pounds) on bets that Barack Obama will be the next U.S. president, three weeks ahead of the election.


Well, the explanation for this is clear to ME -- the Irish now control America's elections. Paddy bastids.



...or maybe they just think his name is Barry O'Bama.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,12:42   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 16 2008,11:40)
http://news.yahoo.com/s....ama_odd
   
Quote
DUBLIN (Reuters) - Ireland's biggest bookmaker Paddy Power said Thursday it would pay out early more than 1 million euros (782,776 pounds) on bets that Barack Obama will be the next U.S. president, three weeks ahead of the election.
ADVERTISEMENT

The Dublin-based bookmaker said it made the "unprecedented decision" to pay on bets taken so far, following Wednesday's final campaign debate between Obama and his Republican rival John McCain, which polls judged the Democrat to have won.

"We declare this race well and truly over and congratulate all those who backed Obama," Power said.

That is hard to believe but seems to be true. Weird. I have never heard of a bookmaker paying out before the result before.

What will they do if Obama loses?

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,12:48   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 16 2008,13:42)
What will they do if Obama loses?

They will be F.I.T.A. :-)

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,12:49   

A racist party, born out of the ashes of a movement in the 80s whose name roughly translated into "keep sweden swedish" are in some polls edging closely to the 4% needed to get into parliament. Granted, they've had to put a slight "wink wink nudge nudge" face on their racism, but I fear a resurgence of naked racist rhetoric like we've seen in for example austria and the netherlands (and here in the 90's as well).

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,12:58   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 16 2008,13:49)
"blah blah blah swedish blah blah blah naked"

wait, what?

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,13:01   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 16 2008,12:49)
A racist party, born out of the ashes of a movement in the 80s whose name roughly translated into "keep sweden swedish" are in some polls edging closely to the 4% needed to get into parliament. Granted, they've had to put a slight "wink wink nudge nudge" face on their racism, but I fear a resurgence of naked racist rhetoric like we've seen in for example austria and the netherlands (and here in the 90's as well).

That made me think of this:


- Come in, my child, join the party.
 
- Let me see, you would be from Austria. Am I right?
                 
- No, I am Inga from Sweden.

- Sweden? But you're wearing Lederhosen.
 
- Je, for sure, from Sweden. Please, help me with my rucksack.


 
And now I can't stop.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,13:07   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 16 2008,19:01)
That made me think of this:


- Come in, my child, join the party.
 
- Let me see, you would be from Austria. Am I right?
                 
- No, I am Inga from Sweden.

- Sweden? But you're wearing Lederhosen.
 
- Je, for sure, from Sweden. Please, help me with my rucksack.


 
And now I can't stop.

Pre-emptive bork bork bork deployed

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,13:09   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 16 2008,10:58)
Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 16 2008,13:49)
"blah blah blah swedish blah blah blah naked"

wait, what?

He means this place:



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,15:31   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 16 2008,13:16)
Now what Steve said about Obama being elected and then assassinated I can see happening. I really can see some lone racist gun nut blowing a black president away. I don't think it requires any conspiracy drivel at all.

that's what many members of the black community think. I don't think he'll be assassinated. For assassination, you've basically got two options. The close gun, and the remote gun. I think the Secret Service can be said to have eliminated the possibility of the close gun. For the remote gun, one has to have a good vantage point, and good aim. I doubt any assassins who want to take Obama out will have much luck. Hitting a target from 500-1000 yards is pretty hard, and a lethal hit is much harder.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,16:12   

Heddle was right. Gosh darn those Demmycrats for playing the race card!!

(from Salon)

Quote
GOP group depicts Obama with watermelon, fried chicken
A California Republican group's latest newsletter shows Barack Obama on a $10  food stamp. The picture shows Obama eating fried chicken, watermelon and ribs, an image that harks back to old derogatory stereotypes about African-Americans.

Diane Fedele, the president of the responsible organization, Chaffey Community Republican Women, Federated, says the image was distributed without any racist intent. "I never connected," she told a local newspaper. "It was just food to me. It didn't mean anything else."

The press secretary for the state Republican Party has denounced the use of the image, the Associated Press reports, and has also pointed out that the group is a volunteer organization not directly responsible to the party.

Fedele has apologized "to anyone who was offended."




--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,16:19   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 16 2008,21:31)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 16 2008,13:16)
Now what Steve said about Obama being elected and then assassinated I can see happening. I really can see some lone racist gun nut blowing a black president away. I don't think it requires any conspiracy drivel at all.

that's what many members of the black community think. I don't think he'll be assassinated. For assassination, you've basically got two options. The close gun, and the remote gun. I think the Secret Service can be said to have eliminated the possibility of the close gun. For the remote gun, one has to have a good vantage point, and good aim. I doubt any assassins who want to take Obama out will have much luck. Hitting a target from 500-1000 yards is pretty hard, and a lethal hit is much harder.

Oh I don't doubt it's hard, but there's always a grassy knoll convenient.....

;-)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,16:19   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 16 2008,17:12)
Heddle was right. Gosh darn those Demmycrats for playing the race card!!

(from Salon)

 
Quote
GOP group depicts Obama with watermelon, fried chicken
A California Republican group's latest newsletter shows Barack Obama on a $10  food stamp. The picture shows Obama eating fried chicken, watermelon and ribs, an image that harks back to old derogatory stereotypes about African-Americans.

Diane Fedele, the president of the responsible organization, Chaffey Community Republican Women, Federated, says the image was distributed without any racist intent. "I never connected," she told a local newspaper. "It was just food to me. It didn't mean anything else."

The press secretary for the state Republican Party has denounced the use of the image, the Associated Press reports, and has also pointed out that the group is a volunteer organization not directly responsible to the party.

Fedele has apologized "to anyone who was offended."



The Kool-Aid bit is really a nice touch.

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,16:22   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 16 2008,18:42)
[SNIP]

Anyway, my dear Welsh/Turkish Louis, my point merely is, I can't with a straight face or clear conscience tell any black person, after all that's happened in this country in the last century or two, "Hey, trust the system! America's a fair country!" That's ridiculously presumptious. But I guess if you're on the right side of certain racial/religious/class/political divides, America *is* a totally fair country.

[SNIP]

Ahhhhh I see where 'tis you be coming from! I don't disagree with that at all, and I certainly don't disagree that the "system" is corruptible.

It was just that your former phrasing struck me as mildly conspiratorial. My bad.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,17:06   

Well, as someone around here recently said, brains in a political candidate are overrated:

 
Quote
Palin says God blessed America with oil and gas
By MIKE BAKER Associated Press Writer
Oct 16th, 2008 | ELON, N.C. -- Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin said Thursday that God blessed the nation with oil and gas resources and other forms of energy that should be tapped to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign suppliers. The Alaska governor told supporters at Elon University that she and GOP presidential nominee John McCain will develop new energy sources.

"God has so richly blessed this land, not just with the oil and the gas, but with wind and the hydro, the geothermal and the biomass," Palin said. "We'll tap into those."

Palin said some of the countries the U.S. relies on for energy use their resources "as a weapon." And she said the billions spent each year on oil imports should be circulated within the country "for the sake of the nation's security."

"We need to drill here and drill now," Palin said as the crowd chanted "drill baby, drill." A protester at the back of the crowd shouted "No blood for oil."


Then God must be a Muslim, since He gave Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran so much *more* oil. Who knew?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,17:56   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 16 2008,17:06)
Well, as someone around here recently said, brains in a political candidate are overrated:

Let's hope so.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,18:25   

Tripping up on how many letters a word has been blessed with and tripping up on what energy resources might be practically used to reduce dependence on foreign oil being, of course, completely comparable faults.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,18:44   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 16 2008,16:25)
Tripping up on how many letters a word has been blessed with and tripping up on what energy resources might be practically used to reduce dependence on foreign oil being, of course, completely comparable faults.

Thank you for putting that more elegantly and much less snarkily than I would have.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,18:54   

"Joe the Plumber" has now had more press confrences than Sarah Palin.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
rhmc



Posts: 340
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,19:15   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 16 2008,19:54)
"Joe the Plumber" has now had more press confrences than Sarah Palin.

probably has more foreign experience, too.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,19:20   

Quote (rhmc @ Oct. 16 2008,17:15)
Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 16 2008,19:54)
"Joe the Plumber" has now had more press confrences than Sarah Palin.

probably has more foreign experience, too.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had more press conferences during his last US trip than Palin has to this day.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,19:29   

Quote (rhmc @ Oct. 17 2008,01:15)
Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 16 2008,19:54)
"Joe the Plumber" has now had more press confrences than Sarah Palin.

probably has more foreign experience, too.

He can see Russia AND Canada from his house?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,19:29   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 17 2008,00:44)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 16 2008,16:25)
Tripping up on how many letters a word has been blessed with and tripping up on what energy resources might be practically used to reduce dependence on foreign oil being, of course, completely comparable faults.

Thank you for putting that more elegantly and much less snarkily than I would have.

Seconded!

There's no way on earth I could have managed that without snark.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,20:05   

Huh. I thought that was snark.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,21:35   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 16 2008,17:06)
Well, as someone around here recently said, brains in a political candidate are overrated:

 
Quote
Palin says God blessed America with oil and gas
By MIKE BAKER Associated Press Writer
Oct 16th, 2008 | ELON, N.C. -- Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin said Thursday that God blessed the nation with oil and gas resources and other forms of energy that should be tapped to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign suppliers. The Alaska governor told supporters at Elon University that she and GOP presidential nominee John McCain will develop new energy sources.

"God has so richly blessed this land, not just with the oil and the gas, but with wind and the hydro, the geothermal and the biomass," Palin said. "We'll tap into those."

Palin said some of the countries the U.S. relies on for energy use their resources "as a weapon." And she said the billions spent each year on oil imports should be circulated within the country "for the sake of the nation's security."

"We need to drill here and drill now," Palin said as the crowd chanted "drill baby, drill." A protester at the back of the crowd shouted "No blood for oil."


Then God must be a Muslim, since He gave Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran so much *more* oil. Who knew?

Why does Palin hate God and the USA so much?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,22:14   

Joe Plumber dumb-down meme working about like you'd expect




Quote
Joe the Plumber, of Knoxville, that is, says he's less concerned about whether he gets a tax break if his customers still can't afford to hire him.

Still, Joe Shanks, a licensed master plumber and owner of Joe's Plumbing Service in the Cedar Bluff area, has followed the presidential campaigns the same as his much-quoted counterpart in Toledo, Ohio, who questioned Democratic Sen. Barack Obama over his proposed tax hike for those who make more than $250,000 a year.

Shanks said his business, which he jointly runs with his wife, Catherine, doesn't earn the couple nearly that much income.

Especially lately, with business at about half what he usually handles, thanks to a flailing national economy that has left would-be customers skittish about hiring him.

"I can't make money right now," explained Shanks, who's been in business for 25 years. "I've had to lower my prices just to get the job. I'm going for that cheap dollar - I have to."

Shanks, an independent voter, said he's supporting Republican Sen. John McCain, citing the official's career experience in office as the deciding factor for him.

"I'd just feel more comfortable, confident and safe with McCain," the plumber said. "McCain's been there. Obama's just not that experienced."

Shanks likened the decision to a homeowner in need of a plumber - would you hire the guy who just got his trade license, he asked, or a seasoned professional?

More details as they develop online and in Friday's News Sentinel.


Oh, please, more details.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,06:31   

I'll have a donut with my Bradley Effect, please!

Just stopped at 7-11 for some coffee. Mostly minorities inside. The large cups: one stack of McCain cups, and one of Obama cups. I don’t want them to think I’m a racist—what should I do??

This did just happen, and I’m partially serious—that very thought crossed my mind. I’m just saying that I can appreciate the reality of the Bradley effect.  Interesting dynamic.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
George



Posts: 316
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,08:03   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 16 2008,12:42)
Well, the explanation for this is clear to ME -- the Irish now control America's elections. Paddy bastids.


Please welcome your new overlord.



Jackie Healy-Rae, TD (member of parliament) for South Kerry.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,08:17   

McCain loses again, just not by as much.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,09:29   

Ah George, you only identified the runner-up:




Sleveen, gobshite,veterinary-strength eegit, and the embodiment of what made this country the great success it is today.

But the question that's most on my mind is what [Irish] political parties Obama, McCain, Bible Spice and that guy who has a B in his name belong to?

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,09:40   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 17 2008,07:31)
Just stopped at 7-11 for some coffee. Mostly minorities inside. The large cups: one stack of McCain cups, and one of Obama cups. I don’t want them to think I’m a racist—what should I do??

You should, um, shut the f*%$ up?

Arden (smacks steve across the face): steve god$#@@ it we're in town.

Steve: I'm sorry arden.

Arden: you better be or i'll punch you in the gizzard

steve: (winces)

   
drew91



Posts: 32
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,09:45   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 17 2008,06:31)
I don’t want them to think I’m a racist—what should I do??

They already think you're a racist, so just grab whichever cup is closer and get on your way.

Oh yeah, and quit drinking 7-11 coffee.  That's just nasty. :p

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,10:00   

Quote (drew91 @ Oct. 17 2008,09:45)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 17 2008,06:31)
I don’t want them to think I’m a racist—what should I do??

They already think you're a racist, so just grab whichever cup is closer and get on your way.

Oh yeah, and quit drinking 7-11 coffee.  That's just nasty. :p

Only the white liberals. Those are the ones who scare me. Unlike that crowd, the African Americans seem to grasp the concept that someone might vote for the other guy without being a racist.

As for the coffee--at O-dark-hundred-hours, 7-11 is the best shot. At least around here.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,10:00   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 17 2008,06:31)
I'll have a donut with my Bradley Effect, please!

Just stopped at 7-11 for some coffee. Mostly minorities inside. The large cups: one stack of McCain cups, and one of Obama cups. I don’t want them to think I’m a racist—what should I do??

This did just happen, and I’m partially serious—that very thought crossed my mind. I’m just saying that I can appreciate the reality of the Bradley effect.  Interesting dynamic.

They already think you're racist - buy that McCain cup!  :D

We'll see if the Bradley effect is countered by the cell phone underpolling effect.

edited to add: Didn't see Drew91's identical reply until after I posted.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,10:26   

Who replaced heddle with DaveScot, really?

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,11:06   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 17 2008,10:26)
Who replaced heddle with DaveScot, really?

That’s a curious comment. Let’s probe it a bit.

My original comment of the Bradley effect was an observation. That in the 7-11, I felt just a twinge of something like: “They aren’t going to like me if I take the McCain cup.” It was a strange, fleeting feeling that gave me some small insight into the Bradley effect. It was, in some sense a scientific observation. And it doesn’t seem to me the type of admission one would hear from DaveScot. I believe he would be more in the “I took four McCain cups up and dared them to say anything.”

After that, there were four comments.

steve s
Quote
You should, um, shut the f*%$ up?


drew 91
Quote
They already think you're a racist


TPH:  
Quote
They already think you're racist


dheddle  
Quote
Only the white liberals.


The first one I don’t get, because I wasn’t actually speaking in the 7-11. Of the remaining three, it is my belief that all are tongue in cheek.

However, superficially— only two of the last three, to the hypersensitive soul reading with  a YEC-like literal hermeneutic, have racist overtones. Those would be the two that suggest any minorities in the 7-11 will automatically assume a white man coming in for coffee is a racist. Although I am from Western PA, so perhaps Murtha had alerted them that I now live in Yorktown and might stroll by.

So where is the similarity?

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,11:12   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 17 2008,07:40)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 17 2008,07:31)
Just stopped at 7-11 for some coffee. Mostly minorities inside. The large cups: one stack of McCain cups, and one of Obama cups. I don’t want them to think I’m a racist—what should I do??

You should, um, shut the f*%$ up?

Arden (smacks steve across the face): steve god$#@@ it we're in town.

Steve: I'm sorry arden.

Arden: you better be or i'll punch you in the gizzard

steve: (winces)

I told Steve not to take those mushrooms before going out on our grocery run. I'm thinking of just shoving him out of the car in front of the Sheriff's office, honking twice, and driving away real fast. :angry:

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,11:15   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 17 2008,08:00)
 
Quote (drew91 @ Oct. 17 2008,09:45)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 17 2008,06:31)
I don’t want them to think I’m a racist—what should I do??

They already think you're a racist, so just grab whichever cup is closer and get on your way.

Oh yeah, and quit drinking 7-11 coffee.  That's just nasty. :p

Only the white liberals. Those are the ones who scare me. Unlike that crowd, the African Americans seem to grasp the concept that someone might vote for the other guy without being a racist.

Um. Dave?

Given how you thought it was just OBVIOUS that I should tell the Black people I know that it's TOTALLY CRAZY for them to think that Obama won't be allowed to be president, I can perhaps be forgiven for not thinking you're the best authority on what Black people think about politics.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,11:37   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 17 2008,11:15)
Given how you thought it was just OBVIOUS that I should tell the Black people I know that it's TOTALLY CRAZY for them to think that Obama won't be allowed to be president, I can perhaps be forgiven for not thinking you're the best authority on what Black people think about politics.

Dave will respond that he grew up in a mixed-race neighborhood and has a degree of comfort with black folks that alot (if not most) liberals don't.  And that is certainly true. However, I might suggest that Dave overestimates his ability to understand exactly how black folks think about their place in America, as evidenced by his thought that the comments about black people already thinking he is racist were tongue-in-cheek.

I have had the experience of working with alot of African-Americans, as a peer, supervisor and subordinate and have these kinds of conversations with some of them*.  As it is expressed to me their experience is of being an obvious minority in a country that, until recently, overtly kept them "in their place" and, even now, seems to stack the deck against them.  In such an environment there is a tendency to think of all white folks as racist until they prove themselves otherwise.  

So, Dave, no those comments weren't tongue-in-cheek although they need to be recognized as referring to a generalized situation and not necessarily about you in particular.

* Yes, I know this is not unlike saying "some of my best friends are black."  There is a "the lady protesteth too much" quality to it, but it did seem a necessary preface to the comment.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,11:57   

On the subject of the much-vaunted Bradley effect, I thought this letter to 538.com was amusing: (relevant part bolded)

Quote
joel said...
That SUSA poll is a joke, he has 22% of blacks voting for McCain? I say add 3 or 4 more points to Obama right there.
Also SUSA has underestimated Obama's strength in the southern states since the beginning of the primaries.
MY take is a lot of blacks are telling pollsters they are voting for McCain because they don't want to appear racist, sort of a reverse bradley effect.

October 17, 2008 11:17 AM


Don't know if any of us here predicted that...

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,12:09   

Yo Arden,

What's up with this?

Isn't SCOTUS part of the "they" who might steal the election?

The truth is out there!

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,12:20   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 17 2008,12:12)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 17 2008,07:40)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 17 2008,07:31)
Just stopped at 7-11 for some coffee. Mostly minorities inside. The large cups: one stack of McCain cups, and one of Obama cups. I don’t want them to think I’m a racist—what should I do??

You should, um, shut the f*%$ up?

Arden (smacks steve across the face): steve god$#@@ it we're in town.

Steve: I'm sorry arden.

Arden: you better be or i'll punch you in the gizzard

steve: (winces)

I told Steve not to take those mushrooms before going out on our grocery run. I'm thinking of just shoving him out of the car in front of the Sheriff's office, honking twice, and driving away real fast. :angry:

I can't live, by your rules!

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,12:38   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 17 2008,10:09)
Yo Arden,

What's up with this?

Isn't SCOTUS part of the "they" who might steal the election?

David, David, David. It's very simple. The SCOTUS is trying to lull us libs into a false sense of security, then on November 5th they'll annull the elections. Do I have to explain EVERYTHING to you?

Quote

The truth is out there!


The X-Files blows, not least because a college roommate of mine who was a total shitheel was one of their main writers. Only girls like that show.

:angry:

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,12:40   

The Washington Post endorses Obama:
Quote
Mr. Obama is a man of supple intelligence, with a nuanced grasp of complex issues and evident skill at conciliation and consensus-building...He is deliberate but not indecisive; eloquent but a master of substance and detail; preternaturally confident but eager to hear opposing points of view. He has inspired millions of voters of diverse ages and races, no small thing in our often divided and cynical country. We think he is the right man for a perilous moment.


--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,13:16   

well heddle I don't like white liberals either.  or any liberals really.  or what passes for conservatives either.  so in your identity scheme who do i vote for?  Particularly since Jimmy Martin died last year?

I took a poll PZ advertised once that tells you which candidate most resembles the manifestation of your views.  I was equal for Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul.  Somehow I suspect that there may be more axes of variation.  frikkin frequentists.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,13:31   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 17 2008,13:16)
well heddle I don't like white liberals either.  or any liberals really.  or what passes for conservatives either.  so in your identity scheme who do i vote for?  Particularly since Jimmy Martin died last year?

Well, if it is any help, Ralph Stanley has endorsed Obama.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,14:37   

yeah i heard that a while back.  now i really find that interesting.  wonder how that will play out in VA, which as CNN said last night is the 'new swing state' or battleground whatever stupid metaphor they used.  i used to have a Dr Ralph Stanley for President t-shirt but some drunk stole it.  coal country has vastly different politics than the rest of VA however.  it is very depressing to hear both of the stuffed shirts blithering and dithering about "Clean Coal" when there ain't no such god damned thing.  although both have been on the record as tentatively opposed to 'mountaintop removal', I have noted that King Coal has contributed generously to both campaigns.  Look for more of the same in the horizontal bedding plane parts of Appalachia.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,14:55   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 17 2008,12:37)
i used to have a Dr Ralph Stanley for President t-shirt but some drunk stole it.

Uh, Ras.....?

That was you.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2008,20:47   

Joe the Plumber reminds me of story # 197 on my website:

After my trailer burned I was coming down the highway south of Hartford, Connecticut feeling very down. The trailer had contained my personal things, jewelry, clothes, etc. I said "Archie Bryant you're a real plumber" and I used that expression, "You're a 'real plumber' for having left a fire on in the trailer." I had left it on because I didn't want everything in the trailer to freeze. Just at that moment a truck passed me - a white truck, and on the side it said "Bryant's Plumbing".

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 18 2008,05:46   

Apologies if this has been posted before:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ntEE9Zy-qQQ

Personally, I think she makes our lot look intelligent:


http://education.niassembly.gov.uk/information/PartyList2003.pdf

What on Earth was McCain thinking.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 18 2008,09:00   

The Chicago Tribune has endorsed Obama. This was their first endorsement of the Democratic candidate in their history.

Go here:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news....4.story

ETA: The Chicago Sun-Times has done likewise:

http://www.suntimes.com/news....article

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 18 2008,12:37   

In other news, the not-burdened-with-overrated-intelligence Sarah Palin said God has blessed the US by giving it oil. Well, now it appears God loves Cuba just as much.

I'm starting to think that God doles out this love thing rather randomly.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 18 2008,13:42   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Oct. 18 2008,05:46)
Apologies if this has been posted before:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ntEE9Zy-qQQ

Personally, I think she makes our lot look intelligent:


http://education.niassembly.gov.uk/information/PartyList2003.pdf

What on Earth was McCain thinking.

I found the way that was edited as just as scary as what she said.

I am hoping Obama wins, he is far more educated than the republican candidates.

  
Reed



Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 18 2008,16:00   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 18 2008,10:37)
In other news, the not-burdened-with-overrated-intelligence Sarah Palin said God has blessed the US by giving it oil.

Interesting theory, lets examine it in more detail. The Islamic countries of the Middle east have far more proven reserves than the US, despite covering much less area. The most devout (Iran and Saudi) are particularly favored.

I'd say Mrs. Palins hypothesis looks promising*, but getting the maximal blessing from God may require some adjustments. How do you feel about wearing veils and giving up pork Mrs Palin ?

* although there are some unresolved questions regarding communist and ex-communist states.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2008,01:54   

dangerous new affliction striking the US

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....heo.php

   
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2008,02:04   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 18 2008,13:42)
Quote (Peter Henderson @ Oct. 18 2008,05:46)
Apologies if this has been posted before:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ntEE9Zy-qQQ

Personally, I think she makes our lot look intelligent:


http://education.niassembly.gov.uk/information/PartyList2003.pdf

What on Earth was McCain thinking.

I found the way that was edited as just as scary as what she said.

I am hoping Obama wins, he is far more educated than the republican candidates.

HAHAHAHA

Understatement of the week. Even for a brit. God loves you man.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2008,09:22   

An interesting exchange on this comment thread at Unreasonable Kansans, where FtK whines about the fact that she hasn't seen Obama's college transcripts (as if they would do anything to change her opinions).

It makes me wonder if Palin has released her transcripts from the myriad colleges that she attended, and if, as part of her journalism degree, she took any courses in ethics.

It's "interesting" that FtK would immediately bond with Palin, despite not knowing much about her, but as for Obama, "there are too many secrets about this guy."

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2008,11:39   

The Starburst Effect, or Palin's true base: Republican men who can't get laid.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2008,15:23   

Hey, Heddle!

Eyeball this
 
Quote
Dozens of newly minted Republican voters say they were duped into joining the party by a GOP contractor with a trail of fraud complaints stretching across the country.

Voters contacted by The Times said they were tricked into switching parties while signing what they believed were petitions for tougher penalties against child molesters. Some said they were told that they had to become Republicans to sign the petition, contrary to California initiative law. Others had no idea their registration was being changed.

and
 
Quote
The Times randomly interviewed 46 of the hundreds of voters whose election records show they were recently re-registered as Republicans by YPM, and 37 of them -- more than 80% -- said that they were misled into making the change or that it was done without their knowledge.

Probably time for an FBI investigation, don'tcha think?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2008,15:41   

The "negrophilia" thing on WorldNetDaily... having grown up in the South, that's just a bigot's fancified way to say "n*****-lover". It doesn't make it any less hateful.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2008,16:56   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 19 2008,16:41)
The "negrophilia" thing on WorldNetDaily... having grown up in the South, that's just a bigot's fancified way to say "n*****-lover". It doesn't make it any less hateful.

I thought there was a familiar ring to that phrase.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2008,19:48   

rather astounding.  even for worldnut.  2008 could be breaking records.  just when you think...  hell it's before you can even think.  where is k.e.. in these times?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2008,22:59   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 19 2008,13:41)
The "negrophilia" thing on WorldNetDaily... having grown up in the South, that's just a bigot's fancified way to say "n*****-lover". It doesn't make it any less hateful.

I was in a bar in Augusta, Georgia. It was 1983. I was teaching at the Medical College of Georgia. I had just come back from a vacation home to California.

I joked with my friends in my regular section of the bar, just in front of the door, that the San Andreas Fault was actually a time warp. Crossing the fault from west to east resulted in a social time regression of about 20 years. I was telling my Georgian friends about all the really cool things that were on the cultural horizon- hippies, the antiwar movement, lots of sex, rock and roll…

It was “two for one” night, and I went to the bar for my backup scotch. I was in an empty slot between two bar stools. Waiting for my drink, I noticed this guy in the bar stool just to my left was staring at me. Not just looking in my direction, but giving me the full on eyeballing stare. I thought, “Opps- I screwed up again!” {I have a terrible memory for people. I meet people and I think they are great. A week later I cannot remember we met. I have had students that have spent weeks in the field with me, and while I remember them and their work- I cannot remember their names.}

So, this guy at the bar looks at me, and I said, “Sorry. Have we met?”

“Nigger lover,” was his reply.

Now, I was a bit drunk. I was only 33 years old. I had a black belt in karate. I was in a very privileged position (medical school professor) in a traditional region.

So, I leaned in on him and said, “No man, I aint a nigger lover. I am a nigger. I am passing.”

He scanned my eyes in a full-on REM moment. “No man, You can’t see it in my eyes- they are Blue. My dick is black. You like black dick, donchyu?

The poor fuckwad nearly fell off his barstool and ran out the bar.

I collected my back up drink and told my friends about the incident.  They were all faculty at Paine College. They were all Blacks. They all started watching the door to the joint, and remonstrated me that the racist motherfucker might come back with a gun.

That is when I really learned about racism. Racism is murder fear.

Racists are murderers.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
simmi



Posts: 38
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,03:43   

re: racism

Colin Powell on our generation's new xenophobia:

 
Quote
I'm also troubled by, not what Sen. McCain says, but what members of the party say, and it is permitted to be said such things as:  "Well,  you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim."  Well, the correct answer is:   he is not a Muslim.  He's a Christian.   He's always been a Christian.

But the really right answer is:  What if he is?  Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country?  The answer is:  No, that's not America.  Is there something wrong with some 7-year-old Muslim-American kid believing he or she can be President?

Yet I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion:  he's a Muslim, and he might be associated with terrorists.  This is not the way we should be doing it in America.


I was actually inspired when I saw Powell's clip on "Meet the Press:"

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008....?em

What's happened to the party of Eisenhower, of Nelson Rockefeller, of Colin Powell?

(short answer: Richard Nixon & identity politics [/my2c])

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,07:53   

Quote (simmi @ Oct. 20 2008,04:43)
What's happened to the party of Eisenhower, of Nelson Rockefeller, of Colin Powell?

(short answer: Richard Nixon & identity politics [/my2c])

There are several books about what happened to conservatism. You can get a nice summary here

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/26/080526fa_fact_packer

The nickel version is, 40 years ago the democrats signed on to civil rights, and republicans rode the backlash. Buttressing this movement were a set of economic events in the 1970s/1980s which made the repubs look good for the economy when they actually aren't.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,08:00   

more about that:
Quote

But I think that in itself suggested a new turn, but the last two years have made it clear to me that this turn is not just a two-year or four-year shift, but that it really is the end of an epoch.  While working on the New Yorker piece, I was reading Kevin Phillips’ book, “The Emerging Republican Majority,” from 1969, which was the seminal document in charting the era of conservative dominance.  It’s a really brilliant book.  In it he says that American politics has this way of going through 32-year or 36-year periods of dominance by one or another ideology.  Jacksonian democracy in the early 19th century.  Lincolnian Republicanism in the late 19th century.  Industrial Republicanism in the early 20th.  New Deal liberalism in the mid-20th.  And he said the next cycle will be a kind of sunbelt conservatism.  And he was absolutely right.  But the interesting thing is that conservatism lasted just a few years longer that in those other periods.  Reading that, Phillips made it sort of click:  “Yes, this isn’t just two years or four years we’re talking about.  We’re looking at a 40-year reign that’s come to an end.”


http://prairieweather.typepad.com/the_scr....th.html

   
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,08:54   

Quote (simmi @ Oct. 20 2008,03:43)
re: racism

Colin Powell on our generation's new xenophobia:

   
Quote
I'm also troubled by, not what Sen. McCain says, but what members of the party say, and it is permitted to be said such things as:  "Well,  you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim."  Well, the correct answer is:   he is not a Muslim.  He's a Christian.   He's always been a Christian.

But the really right answer is:  What if he is?  Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country?  The answer is:  No, that's not America.  Is there something wrong with some 7-year-old Muslim-American kid believing he or she can be President?

Yet I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion:  he's a Muslim, and he might be associated with terrorists.  This is not the way we should be doing it in America.


I was actually inspired when I saw Powell's clip on "Meet the Press:"

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008....?em

What's happened to the party of Eisenhower, of Nelson Rockefeller, of Colin Powell?

(short answer: Richard Nixon & identity politics [/my2c])

Um, it was taken over by christofacist fuckwits in the vein of FtK and company?

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,09:16   

I had an interesting conversation about this over the weekend.  My father would self-identify with both factions of the conservative right and does not share my perception (which to me seems to be widely held in the interwebz) that the GOP is splintering along the christian coalition lines fused in the 80s and 90s.  He is not happy with McCain but does not agree with me that it is necessary (or even important) that Palin have a realistic view of the age of the earth, among other things.  We didn't get a chance to get into this further, but I was left with many unanswered questions.  Of course, my father is a bit torn between the biblical version of history and the fact based version of history, for religious reasons.  I am not surprised that he does not consider this to be a valid metric for choosing a representative.

The one saving grace of the extant representative system is that it encourages gridlock and high inertia.  I fear that this stasis will dissolve with a democratic hegemony.  Given that all of these cunts favor clean coal among many other stupid ideas, that does not bode well for conservation interests, despite the seeming willingness of the Dems to pay lip service to conservationist and sometimes preservationist ideals.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,11:33   

I can hardly believe the size of the crowd at this Obama rally from Missouri on Saturday:

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwir....issouri

   
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,11:36   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 20 2008,10:16)
I had an interesting conversation about this over the weekend.  My father would self-identify with both factions of the conservative right and does not share my perception (which to me seems to be widely held in the interwebz) that the GOP is splintering along the christian coalition lines fused in the 80s and 90s.  He is not happy with McCain but does not agree with me that it is necessary (or even important) that Palin have a realistic view of the age of the earth, among other things.  We didn't get a chance to get into this further, but I was left with many unanswered questions.  Of course, my father is a bit torn between the biblical version of history and the fact based version of history, for religious reasons.  I am not surprised that he does not consider this to be a valid metric for choosing a representative.

The one saving grace of the extant representative system is that it encourages gridlock and high inertia.  I fear that this stasis will dissolve with a democratic hegemony.  Given that all of these cunts favor clean coal among many other stupid ideas, that does not bode well for conservation interests, despite the seeming willingness of the Dems to pay lip service to conservationist and sometimes preservationist ideals.

The only good thing about unified government is that the fanatics will be unstoppable and fanatics never know when to stop.  It doesn't matter if the fanatics are Dems or Reps or any other flavor of the decade(or nation) you care to name.  The backlash will just bring the next permanent Republican majority to power, the pendulum continues its swings, and history repeats itself, ad nauseum.

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,11:56   

Indeed paul.  might i suggest this analogy:  a bobbing turd in the punchbowl?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,12:21   

Ugly comments beyond this point will get Bathroom Walled or deleted.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,14:33   

Quote
HECKLING VOTERS.... I've seen comedians get heckled at comedy clubs. I've seen athletes get heckled at sporting events. I've never even heard of voters getting heckled. And yet, McCain/Palin supporters keep finding new and creative ways to undermine democratic norms.

The Washington Times, a self-described conservative paper, reported today on a polling site in North Carolina where "a group of loud and angry protesters who shouted and mocked the voters as they walked in." The voters were mostly black, and the "angry protesters" were "nearly all were white."


more:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archive....278.php

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,15:21   

And when harassing Black voters at the polls fails, there's always blaming them wicked libruls for everything.

http://enews.earthlink.net/article....7285457

Money shot?

Quote
The sharper remarks and tone came as McCain appeared before a weekday crowd of 2,000 in this suburb north of St. Louis, where Obama drew 100,000 on Saturday.


--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,17:32   

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200881020067

Quote
A dead bear was found dumped this morning on the Western Carolina University campus, draped with a pair of Obama campaign signs, university police said.

Maintenance workers reported about 7:45 a.m. finding a 75-pound bear cub dumped at the roundabout near the Catamount statute at the entrance to campus, said Tom Johnson, chief of university police.

“It looked like it had been shot in the head as best we can tell. A couple of Obama campaign signs had been stapled together and stuck over its head,” Johnson said.

University police called in N.C. Wildlife Resources officials to remove the body and help in the investigation. Bear season is currently under way in Western North Carolina.

“This is certainly unacceptable,” Johnson said. “Someone was wanting to draw attention to the election. If we find out who they are, we’ll make sure they’ll get some attention themselves.”


I don't get it.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,17:43   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 20 2008,15:32)
I don't get it.

Obvious.  A bear was out campaigning for Obama.  Palin shot it.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,18:15   

Ken Adelman is now voting for Obama.

Good lord.

http://www.newyorker.com/online....in.html

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,18:22   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 20 2008,15:43)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 20 2008,15:32)
I don't get it.

Obvious.  A bear was out campaigning for Obama.  Palin shot it.

Well, that explains the airplane flying around in circles there this morning.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,18:56   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 20 2008,17:32)
I don't get it.

It's like trying to explain "Why is there a Bill Dembski?",  or the even greater mystery, "Why is DaveScot such a Tard?"

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,19:46   

Should Obama win, I propose to print up some bumper stickers saying:

“DON’T BLAME ME.  I VOTED FOR A VETERAN”

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,20:11   

Quote (hereoisreal @ Oct. 20 2008,17:46)
Should Obama win, I propose to print up some bumper stickers saying:

“DON’T BLAME ME.  I VOTED FOR A VETERAN”

Zero

Did you vote for a veteran in '04?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,20:17   

Quote (hereoisreal @ Oct. 20 2008,19:46)
Should Obama win, I propose to print up some bumper stickers saying:

“DON’T BLAME ME.  I VOTED FOR A VETERAN”

Zero

Wow that is a goodun.  Zero I'm sure you've got some more.  Do tell.

Were I one of them'ar sticker marketers, which full disclosure I am not, I would be a-printin a few of that un up, my friend.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,20:21   

from the updated article
Quote
"Western Carolina University deplores the inappropriate behavior that led to this troubling incident," said Leila Tvedt, associate vice chancellor "We cannot speculate on the motives of the people involved, nor who those people might be. Campus police are cooperating with authorities to investigate this matter."


as if they were to possibly condone it or something.  people that waste bear meat are lower than whale shit.  and i bet it had a slipper sized hide at least.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,20:26   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 20 2008,20:11)
Quote (hereoisreal @ Oct. 20 2008,17:46)
Should Obama win, I propose to print up some bumper stickers saying:

“DON’T BLAME ME.  I VOTED FOR A VETERAN”

Zero

Did you vote for a veteran in '04?

Or how about '92?  James Stockdale was a veteran, and a POW to boot!  That double whammy should have sewn up your vote, huh?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,20:29   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 20 2008,18:21)
from the updated article
Quote
"Western Carolina University deplores the inappropriate behavior that led to this troubling incident," said Leila Tvedt, associate vice chancellor "We cannot speculate on the motives of the people involved, nor who those people might be. Campus police are cooperating with authorities to investigate this matter."


as if they were to possibly condone it or something.  people that waste bear meat are lower than whale shit.  and i bet it had a slipper sized hide at least.

My brother-in-law is violently allergic to bears. Apparently lots of people are, most of them just don't know it, never having occasion to handle them.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,20:37   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 20 2008,20:29)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 20 2008,18:21)
from the updated article
 
Quote
"Western Carolina University deplores the inappropriate behavior that led to this troubling incident," said Leila Tvedt, associate vice chancellor "We cannot speculate on the motives of the people involved, nor who those people might be. Campus police are cooperating with authorities to investigate this matter."


as if they were to possibly condone it or something.  people that waste bear meat are lower than whale shit.  and i bet it had a slipper sized hide at least.

My brother-in-law is violently allergic to bears. Apparently lots of people are, most of them just don't know it, never having occasion to handle them.

got a cousin like that with work.  

what sort of reaction does one have to a bear?  fur?  scent glands?  i can attest that their livers are sanquinely sublime, reminscent of fall acorns, spring lizards, yaller jackets and who knows what all.  


looks like big brother alec has managed to resurrect the tard one's career.  one last swirl.  which one was the drunk one?  or drunkest.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,20:45   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 20 2008,20:11)
Quote (hereoisreal @ Oct. 20 2008,17:46)
Should Obama win, I propose to print up some bumper stickers saying:

“DON’T BLAME ME.  I VOTED FOR A VETERAN”

Zero

Did you vote for a veteran in '04?

No Arden.  I voted for W.  I now regret I did not have
a choice between him and someone who had spent 6 and
a half years in prison for defending his country.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,20:52   

And who spent 6 years in jail for defending their country? I know wingnuts are bad at geography, but Vietnam is not in the US.

Further, what the hell does that have to do with being president?

Would you vote for Charles Manson because he's spent time in prison? Do you learn economics there? How about diplomacy?

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,21:07   

Quote (hereoisreal @ Oct. 20 2008,18:45)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 20 2008,20:11)
 
Quote (hereoisreal @ Oct. 20 2008,17:46)
Should Obama win, I propose to print up some bumper stickers saying:

“DON’T BLAME ME.  I VOTED FOR A VETERAN”

Zero

Did you vote for a veteran in '04?

No Arden.  I voted for W.  I now regret I did not have
a choice between him and someone who had spent 6 and
a half years in prison for defending his country.

Zero

Actually, he probably didn't do much defending in Hoa Lo Prison.

So why wasn't choosing a veteran important to your decision in 2004?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,21:17   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 20 2008,18:37)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 20 2008,20:29)
 
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 20 2008,18:21)
from the updated article
   
Quote
"Western Carolina University deplores the inappropriate behavior that led to this troubling incident," said Leila Tvedt, associate vice chancellor "We cannot speculate on the motives of the people involved, nor who those people might be. Campus police are cooperating with authorities to investigate this matter."


as if they were to possibly condone it or something.  people that waste bear meat are lower than whale shit.  and i bet it had a slipper sized hide at least.

My brother-in-law is violently allergic to bears. Apparently lots of people are, most of them just don't know it, never having occasion to handle them.

got a cousin like that with work.  

what sort of reaction does one have to a bear?  fur?  scent glands?  

His reaction is to the fur. Not sure what the reason is (someone must have figured it out), but he gets a horrible itchy rash. He discovered this after volunteering at a zoo. His bosses told him it happens a lot.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,21:21   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 20 2008,21:07)
Quote (hereoisreal @ Oct. 20 2008,18:45)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 20 2008,20:11)
   
Quote (hereoisreal @ Oct. 20 2008,17:46)
Should Obama win, I propose to print up some bumper stickers saying:

“DON’T BLAME ME.  I VOTED FOR A VETERAN”

Zero

Did you vote for a veteran in '04?

No Arden.  I voted for W.  I now regret I did not have
a choice between him and someone who had spent 6 and
a half years in prison for defending his country.

Zero

Actually, he probably didn't do much defending in Hoa Lo Prison.

So why wasn't choosing a veteran important to your decision in 2004?

Because the veteran wasn't on his team?  I wish wingnuts had better memories, discussion would be more interesting.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,22:37   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 20 2008,20:52)
And who spent 6 years in jail for defending their country? I know wingnuts are bad at geography, but Vietnam is not in the US.

Further, what the hell does that have to do with being president?

Would you vote for Charles Manson because he's spent time in prison? Do you learn economics there? How about diplomacy?

Nerull, Vietnam may not be in the US.  My geography
is sometimes bad but I'm positive Bataan was in 1942.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March
.................................................

"Would you vote for Charles Manson because he's spent time in prison?"

No, but didn't Jesus say, "In my father's house are
many Mansons."?

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,23:28   

Quote (hereoisreal @ Oct. 20 2008,22:37)
Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 20 2008,20:52)
And who spent 6 years in jail for defending their country? I know wingnuts are bad at geography, but Vietnam is not in the US.

Further, what the hell does that have to do with being president?

Would you vote for Charles Manson because he's spent time in prison? Do you learn economics there? How about diplomacy?

Nerull, Vietnam may not be in the US.  My geography
is sometimes bad but I'm positive Bataan was in 1942.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March
.................................................

"Would you vote for Charles Manson because he's spent time in prison?"

No, but didn't Jesus say, "In my father's house are
many Mansons."?

Zero

clap clap clap clap clap

Well done, Zero, in your avoidance of the questions put to you. Your lessons in modern conservatism/Republicanism have served you well.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,23:31   

Seriously, Zero, why wasn't the veteran thing a factor in how you voted in '04?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2008,23:47   

For many Republican Party cheerleaders, asking for principled consistency is just wrong on both counts.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,00:12   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 20 2008,23:31)
Seriously, Zero, why wasn't the veteran thing a factor in how you voted in '04?

I would be interested in an answer to this as well.  Is it that there are other factors in each case that are more important to you?

Perot '92         Veteran on ticket
Kerry '04         Veteran on ticket
McCain '08       Veteran on ticket

Which of the above did you vote for?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,00:19   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 20 2008,18:37)
what sort of reaction does one have to a bear?

First I wet my pants, and then I runs like hell!

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,10:18   

may i suggest this veteran for president.  



perhaps it is too late, his card has been punched and he is eating pancakes in the grand cosmic waffle house.

but you can still have this impostor!




amazingly to me of course I am not the first to discover this.


Sarah Palin Looks Like Peggy Hill and McCain Looks Like Cotton

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,15:10   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 21 2008,10:18)
may i suggest this veteran for president.  



perhaps it is too late, his card has been punched and he is eating pancakes in the grand cosmic waffle house.

but you can still have this impostor!




amazingly to me of course I am not the first to discover this.


Sarah Palin Looks Like  Peggy Hill a Big Loser and McCain Looks Like Cotton another Big Loser

Hey 'ras - I fixed it for you....

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,15:43   

Ah,

2000 Vietnam veteran Al Gore on the ticket

vs

"there is a party this weekend" Bush, and "I had other priorities" Cheney

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,17:21   

Some more Obama, the son of God Praise and Worship. It will bring you to enraptured tears. May Obama's countenance shine upon thee!

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,17:46   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 21 2008,18:21)
Some more Obama, the son of God Praise and Worship. It will bring you to enraptured tears. May Obama's countenance shine upon thee!

This from the guy who's favorite candidate thinks she's on a mission from god.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,18:28   

Quote
10 October 2008
The Messiah is Absolutely Speaking
DaveScot



The only people I've heard refer to Obama as some kind of religious object of worship are Davescot, Louis Farrakhan, and Dave Heddle.

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,18:30   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 21 2008,19:28)
Quote
10 October 2008
The Messiah is Absolutely Speaking
DaveScot



The only people I've heard refer to Obama as some kind of religious object of worship are Davescot, Louis Farrakhan, and Dave Heddle.

Who better to know?

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,19:17   

Quote
Jim Bramlett
Block African witchcraft curses against McCain and Palin NOW!


Sep 28 2008 04:12PM


Dear friends:



THIS IS EXTREMELY SERIOUS.


Minutes ago I spoke with friend Dr. Norman G. Marvin, M.D. and he is so concerned at what he has learned about Barack Obama's family in Kenya that he is calling a special prayer meeting in his home to pray against the witchcraft curses attempted by them against John McCain and Sarah Palin.

Dr. Marvin sent me the below e-mail from Flo Ellers.  Flo is credentialed with the International Fellowship of Ministries which is based in Washington State.  She is also a member of EndTime Handmaidens and Servants of Jasper, Arkansas.

IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO SPIRITUAL WARFARE, PLEASE PRAY TODAY AND CONTINUALLY THAT ALL SUCH CURSES BE BROKEN AND SATAN'S PLAN FOR AMERICA BE DEFEATED, IN JESUS' NAME.  PRAY AND COVER MCCAIN AND PALIN WITH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.  IF YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO DO SPIRITUAL WARFARE, IT IS TIME YOU LEARN!!!

Jim


From Flo Ellers.  Excerpt.  (Emphasis supplied in bold and underlines.)

Two days ago, I listened to a 9-6-08 message by Bree Keyton, a young woman evangelist who had just traveled to Kenya and visited Obama's home village and what she found out about his relations with his tribal people was chilling. And his "cousin" Odinga was dreadful.She said the witches, warlocks and those involved in satanism and the occult get up daily at 3 a.m. to release curses against McCain and Palin so B. Hussein Obama is elected.

Bree Keyton told the tribal "Christians" you are NOT Christian if you practice "tribalism" where they do voodoo to conjure up a goddess spirit or a "genie" and then come to church on Sunday to worship Jesus! What she discovered there is apparent in most churches around the world; namely, mixture in the church. Some renounced their devilish practices of blood covenant by killing sheep, goats, humans to be inducted into the tribe or to get a wife or to get revenge.

She said the current president of Kenya is a Christian. However, Obama's cousin Odinga ran aganist him and said he rigged the election and stirred up the masses to rape woman and boys, kill and burn and torture Christians, etc. until Obama contacted Condeleeza Rice and she granted Obama the right to contact Odinga and other ruling elders and he "convinced" them to stop terrorizing the Christians. Bree Keyton said the current Christian President was forced by our government (!) to "create" an office for Odinga (to make "peace") so he was made the Prime Minister (!) to make peace between the Christians and Odinga's Muslim religion!

Bree Keyton went and visited Obama's tribal people and she found out Obama is 75% Arab and his family are Muslims. Odinga is strill trying to become the President of Kenya. If he does, he will make a law forbidding all public preaching and institute Sharia Law. Bree K. said Odinga has made a pact with satan.


Bree K. also said when Obama visited his tribe in '06 and as late as Jan. '08 he went to every elder's home which has a "shrine" inside to worship the genie and asked for their blessing. She was told Obama and Odinga were both "destined" before they were born to be president/leader of their nation. They say "he is the chosen one". She said Obama's grandmother sacrificed a black and a white chicken to the "goddess of the river" so both whites and blacks will vote for Obama. All Islam loves and worships Obama.

The world is mesmerized by him. Oprah's 200 million followers are out to elect Obama. Also, Dick Morris of Fox News was sent to Kenya to help Odinga run his campaign! I find that unbelievable.

The occultists are "weaving lazy 8's around McCain's mind to make him look confused and like an idiot". Bree K. said we need to break these curses off of him that are being sent from Kenya.

I read a portion of "Obama Nation" book and looked at several websites and found most of this information to be true, all except the curses part, of course....

End of excerpt.


ETA: linky

Edited by stevestory on Oct. 21 2008,20:20

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,19:20   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 21 2008,18:28)
   
Quote
10 October 2008
The Messiah is Absolutely Speaking
DaveScot



The only people I've heard refer to Obama as some kind of religious object of worship are Davescot, Louis Farrakhan, and Dave Heddle.

Hmm. I can think of two reasons.

1) We are the only three people creeped out by the video I linked to. Or this one.  Or this one.

2) For different reasons, we all are against Obama. Despite these differences, we have formed an alliance. We got together, smoked crack, and hatched a scheme to attack Obama by making false allegations that his candidacy has resulted, among some of his followers, in a Messiah cult.

The second option is, of course, much more plausible.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,20:00   

For technical reasons I can't watch YouTube videos for the next couple of days. But apparently it's about children singing something to Obama. Since I can't watch the video, I'll have to settle for this commentary I found on a webpage called "Singing Obama Video":

 
Quote


Very scary !!!! And yes, it is cult like and like Hitler and other third world countries…Not ONLY that…but this California teacher RECRUITED these kids from a school where she teaches which SHOULD be ILLEGAL!!!!! Is this what Obama will teach in the schools? Is this the “change” in education he speaks of? Notice the words…”he will lead em”…as in….Christ? This is outright WORSHIPPING OBAMA…its one thing, and a sad thing to vote for him…BUT TO WORSHIP HIM? Its gotten WAY out of hand here !!!!

I have heard some say, he is the Anti Christ…I thought that was pretty radical, although….possible now at this point !!!! And yes, he has created his own “logo” that he places on everything….just like Hitler’s swaztica and other leaders such as him…all have their own “mark”….

Also notice the words…”we will change the world” or “Obama will change the world”…..since WHEN is he running for President of the WORLD? Although, he went over there to seek their votes when…he is REALLY gonna seek the Presidency here…so I guess maybe he is ? Scary stuff…very much so !!!! To those who think this is harmless…think again…this is what some thought in cults and with Hitler also…many THOUGHT they were doing the “right thing” in worshipping those monsters!!!!

We have to remember…he wants to talk to terrorists, he doesn’t like the American flag, his wife has said she isn’t proud of America but once…and America is a “mean” country….he has terrorist friends and ties….what MORE do you need to see or hear at this point folks? Obama is out to take DOWN THE USA from the INSIDE OUT….Just because someone hates Bush, does NOT mean they should do some “revenge vote” thing and vote for this man !!!!! You are selling YOUR COUNTRY TO HELL IN A HANDBASKET people !!!! Obama is a trojan horse….beware….

Notice how the kids are nearly crying as they praise and worship THIS MAN….not WORTHY of praise or worship as NO MAN is…ONLY GOD….Obama IS NOT THE MESSIAH people….he is just a man, a VERY DANGEROUS man….notice how the parents are also nearly in tears …..its okay to like or vote for someone….that is your right….and, I suppose to worship them also….but I just wonder when Obama will pass around the poison kool aid….oh wait…its already happened…

This was on OBAMAS CAMPAIGN WEBSITE meaning…he thinks its OKAY to outright WORSHIP HIM….he should have denounced this, being the so called “Christian” he is….as God says…He will have NO OTHER GODS before Him and this is idol worship….but instead he DID NOT and posted this trash on his website….He ONLY took it OFF his website when people complained and said it looked like a cult and worshipping…WHICH IT WAS….I think he is a GROWN MAN and could figure that out for himself…being the “Christian” that he is? Oh I am sorry…Did I SAY “Christian”….I meant…MUSLIM that he is !!!! It ties in his comment about the 57 states…of Islam, the US has 50….it ties in his America flag problem…his wife’s comments…his ties to terrorists…his “church” he attended for 20 years and knew NOTHING about….He is doing EVERYTHING BUT COMING RIGHT AND TELLING YOU….He is a MUSLIM…He is RACIST…He is ANTI AMERICAN…..HE IS DANGEROUS…..and yet…some WILL STILL vote for this man? Did aliens come down and steal your brains?

This is not time for a REVENGE vote against Bush….this is OUR COUNTRY you are talking about….Please do the right thing and DO NOT ELECT this man !!!!
Well if that's not the voice of reason itself, I don't know what is. I might have to change my vote. I was prepared to overlook the fact that Obama was a molested pedophile who was born in Indonesia, faked his birth certificate, personally fills out fraudulent voter registrations when he's not busy cursing america or being a secret muslim socialist who ran drugs out of Pakistan or plotting with the Weathermen who ghost wrote his autobiography. All that, I was prepared to overlook. But now he's also identical to Adolph Hitler, Jim Jones, and possibly the Antichrist. That might be the straw that broke the camel's back. Yes, I am simply filled to the brim with doubt now. Very plausible, sensible, reasonable doubt.

Edited by stevestory on Oct. 21 2008,21:01

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,20:17   

Quote
October 21, 2008
Categories: Sarah Palin
The wardrobe

My colleague Jeanne Cummings has an entertaining scoop:

   The Republican National Committee appears to have spent more than $150,000 to clothe and accessorize vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin and her family since her surprise pick by John McCain in late August.

   According to financial disclosure records, the accessorizing began in early September and included bills from Saks Fifth Avenue in St. Louis and New York for a combined $49,425.74.

   The records also document a couple of big-time shopping trips to Neiman Marcus in Minneapolis, including one $75,062.63 spree in early September.

   The RNC also spent $4,716.49 on hair and makeup through September after reporting no such costs in August.


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,20:46   

Down here in Florida, you can't open the newspaper without reading something about the governor's little feud with McCain. He's either irritated McCain didn't pick him, or that McCain's bringing down the numbers on GOP candidates lower on the ballot, that McCain picked someone so anti-gay, which Crist is rumored--without evidence--to be, or something. So this was funny:

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr....in.aspx

Quote
008
Quote of the Day (About Palin)

From Republican Governor Charlie Crist, to CNN:
Quote
     I asked Crist if he thought Palin was going to lure undecided voters to the ticket.

   "I think we both know the answer to that," he said.


Ouch.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,22:12   

Quote (Nerull @ Oct. 21 2008,15:46)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 21 2008,18:21)
Some more Obama, the son of God Praise and Worship. It will bring you to enraptured tears. May Obama's countenance shine upon thee!

This from the guy who's favorite candidate thinks she's on a mission from god.

And from the guy who thinks intelligence in a candidate is 'overrated' and physical attractiveness in a candidate is 'underrated'.

How we've gone this far without Heddle telling us how we should vote is beyond me.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,22:38   

Quote (bfish @ Oct. 21 2008,00:19)
 
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 20 2008,18:37)
what sort of reaction does one have to a bear?

First I wet my pants, and then I runs like hell!

A few years back, I was on a bus touring Alaska when a male passenger
asked the driver to stop in the woods because he had to do what
bears do.
After a while, the man came running toward us with his pants
down around his knees and a bear in hot pursuit.
As he approached the bus, the driver closed the door and drove away  exclaiming,
“ I’m not letting anyone on this bus with a bare behind.”

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
EyeNoU



Posts: 115
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,23:06   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 21 2008,10:18)
may i suggest this veteran for president.  



perhaps it is too late, his card has been punched and he is eating pancakes in the grand cosmic waffle house.

but you can still have this impostor!




amazingly to me of course I am not the first to discover this.


Sarah Palin Looks Like Peggy Hill and McCain Looks Like Cotton

Be sure to read Comment #8 on that linked page

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,05:26   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 21 2008,20:20)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 21 2008,18:28)
     
Quote
10 October 2008
The Messiah is Absolutely Speaking
DaveScot



The only people I've heard refer to Obama as some kind of religious object of worship are Davescot, Louis Farrakhan, and Dave Heddle.

Hmm. I can think of two reasons.

1) We are the only three people creeped out by the video I linked to. Or this one.  Or this one.

2) For different reasons, we all are against Obama. Despite these differences, we have formed an alliance. We got together, smoked crack, and hatched a scheme to attack Obama by making false allegations that his candidacy has resulted, among some of his followers, in a Messiah cult.

The second option is, of course, much more plausible.

And you suddenly have an issue with Messiah cults?

C'mon Heddle.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
KCdgw



Posts: 376
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,10:04   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 21 2008,19:20)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 21 2008,18:28)
         
Quote
10 October 2008
The Messiah is Absolutely Speaking
DaveScot



The only people I've heard refer to Obama as some kind of religious object of worship are Davescot, Louis Farrakhan, and Dave Heddle.

Hmm. I can think of two reasons.

1) We are the only three people creeped out by the video I linked to. Or this one.  Or this one.


That last video was a recording of a simple middle school stepline routine. Steplines are a popular activity among African American students (especially in college), and in no way militant or creepy. And what were these kids talking about? Being inspired to become doctors and lawyers and stuff. Anyone creeped out by that needs to put on some pants and get out of their mom's basement every now and then.

KC

--------------
Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,10:36   

Quote (KCdgw @ Oct. 22 2008,10:04)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 21 2008,19:20)
     
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 21 2008,18:28)
           
Quote
10 October 2008
The Messiah is Absolutely Speaking
DaveScot



The only people I've heard refer to Obama as some kind of religious object of worship are Davescot, Louis Farrakhan, and Dave Heddle.

Hmm. I can think of two reasons.

1) We are the only three people creeped out by the video I linked to. Or this one.  Or this one.


That last video was a recording of a simple middle school stepline routine. Steplines are a popular activity among African American students (especially in college), and in no way militant or creepy. And what were these kids talking about? Being inspired to become doctors and lawyers and stuff. Anyone creeped out by that needs to put on some pants and get out of their mom's basement every now and then.

KC

I didn't write that it was "militant" I wrote that it is creepy, and it is. And you failed to mention their invocation of the name "Obama" in their pledges, instead making is sound as if they are merely saying, "I want to be a doctor when I grow up."

A group of teenagers in military garb, expressing fealty to McCain while engaged in close order drill, would, I'm sure, generate from you the same nonchalant response.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
KCdgw



Posts: 376
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,11:02   

Heddle writes:

 
Quote
A group of teenagers in military garb, expressing fealty to McCain while engaged in close order drill, would, I'm sure, generate from you the same nonchalant response.


It's a stepline, as I said. Paint it as scary as you like, but to anyone familiar with steplines, its no scarier (and profoundly more informed) than this pro McCain school video.

KC

--------------
Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,11:10   

Quote (KCdgw @ Oct. 22 2008,11:02)
Heddle writes:

   
Quote
A group of teenagers in military garb, expressing fealty to McCain while engaged in close order drill, would, I'm sure, generate from you the same nonchalant response.


It's a stepline, as I said. Paint it as scary as you like, but to anyone familiar with steplines, its no scarier (and profoundly more informed) than this pro McCain school video.

KC

No, I didn't say it was scary anymore than I said it was militant. Please stop trying to insert code words into my comments. It wasn't scary at all. In fact, it was kind of funny. In a creepy sort of way.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,12:18   

Creepy?

Those videos were downright fucking horrendous. Seriously, does anyone advocate this kind of mindless brainwashing?

(Sensitive flowers might want to look away, hideous "anti-American" rant approaching)

Really? REALLY? This is what the "voters" of the "world's greatest democracy" are encouraging? I don't care what "side" this is for (or against) this kind of "reinforcement by rote and deed" is the kernel of a totalitarian ideal, pure and simple. It's a "Don't think, accept" mentality. I nearly pissed myself laughing when, in the middle of the video, these poor lads said "Obama teaches me to think for myself" (or words to that effect) during a routine that could have been designed by a psychologist to reinforce certain behaviours. The military have been working this motif for centuries precisely because of the psychological effects it has.

That anyone could see this as a good thing for ANY candidate's supporters to be doing demonstrates how distant America truly is from its constitutionally stated ideals. Land of the free? My arse it is! I hope, if Obama is aware of this he/his people decry it long and loud. Of course young (black) people should think for themselves and admire positive role models like Obama, of course people should aspire and be inspired in turn, but in a lock step, trained, learned manner? Never! That is the antithesis of what they are espousing.

The McCain videos, and kiddies singing the virtues of Obama are no different. What they are singing might not be right/wrong, but why and how they are certainly is. An analogy familiar to anyone here: one does not encourage free, rational scientific thought by adhering to dogma learned by rote (see Lysenko etc). That people think this kind of, perhaps relatively mild, brainwashing is a palatable form of political expression shows just how far in the shitter the USA is.

Disgustedly,

Louis

P.S. I see that archetype of unthinking identity politics Heddle has yet to comprehend the ramifications of the tu quoque fallacy.

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,12:22   

Will White People Riot if Obama Wins?

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,12:39   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 22 2008,12:22)
Will White People Riot if Obama Wins?

Of course, some have promised a race war if Obama loses.


If McCain wins, look for a full-fledged race and class war, fueled by a deflated and depressed country, soaring crime, homelessness - and hopelessness!

No fear mongering here. Please move along.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
KCdgw



Posts: 376
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,12:58   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 22 2008,12:39)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 22 2008,12:22)
Will White People Riot if Obama Wins?

Of course, some have promised a race war if Obama loses.


If McCain wins, look for a full-fledged race and class war, fueled by a deflated and depressed country, soaring crime, homelessness - and hopelessness!

No fear mongering here. Please move along.

As Chris "X" Rock said to Bill Maher, if Obama loses, then on the Wednesday following the election, if anyone has a planned activity involving black people, then it isn't going to get done.

KC

--------------
Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,12:59   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 22 2008,10:39)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 22 2008,12:22)
Will White People Riot if Obama Wins?

Of course, some have promised a race war if Obama loses.


If McCain wins, look for a full-fledged race and class war, fueled by a deflated and depressed country, soaring crime, homelessness - and hopelessness!

No fear mongering here. Please move along.

But Dave, given that you evidently partially base your votes on physical attractiveness, do you actually think McCain is better looking than Obama? Or can the attractiveness of VP's trump that?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,13:08   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 21 2008,18:00)
For technical reasons I can't watch YouTube videos for the next couple of days. But apparently it's about children singing something to Obama. Since I can't watch the video, I'll have to settle for this commentary I found on a webpage called "Singing Obama Video":

   
Quote


Very scary !!!! And yes, it is cult like and like Hitler and other third world countries…Not ONLY that…but this California teacher RECRUITED these kids from a school where she teaches which SHOULD be ILLEGAL!!!!! Is this what Obama will teach in the schools? Is this the “change” in education he speaks of? Notice the words…”he will lead em”…as in….Christ? This is outright WORSHIPPING OBAMA…its one thing, and a sad thing to vote for him…BUT TO WORSHIP HIM? Its gotten WAY out of hand here !!!!

I have heard some say, he is the Anti Christ…I thought that was pretty radical, although….possible now at this point !!!! And yes, he has created his own “logo” that he places on everything….just like Hitler’s swaztica and other leaders such as him…all have their own “mark”….

Also notice the words…”we will change the world” or “Obama will change the world”…..since WHEN is he running for President of the WORLD? Although, he went over there to seek their votes when…he is REALLY gonna seek the Presidency here…so I guess maybe he is ? Scary stuff…very much so !!!! To those who think this is harmless…think again…this is what some thought in cults and with Hitler also…many THOUGHT they were doing the “right thing” in worshipping those monsters!!!!

We have to remember…he wants to talk to terrorists, he doesn’t like the American flag, his wife has said she isn’t proud of America but once…and America is a “mean” country….he has terrorist friends and ties….what MORE do you need to see or hear at this point folks? Obama is out to take DOWN THE USA from the INSIDE OUT….Just because someone hates Bush, does NOT mean they should do some “revenge vote” thing and vote for this man !!!!! You are selling YOUR COUNTRY TO HELL IN A HANDBASKET people !!!! Obama is a trojan horse….beware….

Notice how the kids are nearly crying as they praise and worship THIS MAN….not WORTHY of praise or worship as NO MAN is…ONLY GOD….Obama IS NOT THE MESSIAH people….he is just a man, a VERY DANGEROUS man….notice how the parents are also nearly in tears …..its okay to like or vote for someone….that is your right….and, I suppose to worship them also….but I just wonder when Obama will pass around the poison kool aid….oh wait…its already happened…

This was on OBAMAS CAMPAIGN WEBSITE meaning…he thinks its OKAY to outright WORSHIP HIM….he should have denounced this, being the so called “Christian” he is….as God says…He will have NO OTHER GODS before Him and this is idol worship….but instead he DID NOT and posted this trash on his website….He ONLY took it OFF his website when people complained and said it looked like a cult and worshipping…WHICH IT WAS….I think he is a GROWN MAN and could figure that out for himself…being the “Christian” that he is? Oh I am sorry…Did I SAY “Christian”….I meant…MUSLIM that he is !!!! It ties in his comment about the 57 states…of Islam, the US has 50….it ties in his America flag problem…his wife’s comments…his ties to terrorists…his “church” he attended for 20 years and knew NOTHING about….He is doing EVERYTHING BUT COMING RIGHT AND TELLING YOU….He is a MUSLIM…He is RACIST…He is ANTI AMERICAN…..HE IS DANGEROUS…..and yet…some WILL STILL vote for this man? Did aliens come down and steal your brains?

This is not time for a REVENGE vote against Bush….this is OUR COUNTRY you are talking about….Please do the right thing and DO NOT ELECT this man !!!!
Well if that's not the voice of reason itself, I don't know what is. I might have to change my vote. I was prepared to overlook the fact that Obama was a molested pedophile who was born in Indonesia, faked his birth certificate, personally fills out fraudulent voter registrations when he's not busy cursing america or being a secret muslim socialist who ran drugs out of Pakistan or plotting with the Weathermen who ghost wrote his autobiography. All that, I was prepared to overlook. But now he's also identical to Adolph Hitler, Jim Jones, and possibly the Antichrist. That might be the straw that broke the camel's back. Yes, I am simply filled to the brim with doubt now. Very plausible, sensible, reasonable doubt.

Steve, Steve, Steve. You're hardly trying.

 
Quote
AYERS Well if that's not the voice of reason itself, I don't know what is. SOCIALIST I might have to change my vote. TERRORIST I was prepared to OVERLOOK the fact that OBAMA was a MOLESTED PEDOPHILE who was BORN in INDONESIA, FAKED his birth certificate, ELITIST personally fills out FRAUDULENT voter registrations when he's not MUSLIM busy CURSING AMERICA or being a SECRET MUSLIM SOCIALIST who ran DRUGS out of PAKISTAN or PLOTTING with the WEATHERMEN who GHOST wrote REZKO his autobiography. All that, I was prepared to overlook. But now he's also IDENTICAL TO ADOLPH HITLER, JIM JONES, and ACORN possibly the ANTICHRIST. That might be the straw that BROKE the CAMEL'S back. Yes, I am simply filled ANTIAMERICAN to the brim with DOUBT now. Very plausible, sensible, reasonable DOUBT. NEGROPHILIA


Now, you can't tell me that's not much better.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,13:10   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 22 2008,10:39)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 22 2008,12:22)
Will White People Riot if Obama Wins?

Of course, some have promised a race war if Obama loses.

Yes, white people.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,13:24   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 22 2008,13:39)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 22 2008,12:22)
Will White People Riot if Obama Wins?

Of course, some have promised a race war if Obama loses.


If McCain wins, look for a full-fledged race and class war, fueled by a deflated and depressed country, soaring crime, homelessness - and hopelessness!

No fear mongering here. Please move along.

Hey Heddle...why don't you follow up and read her next column?

http://www.philly.com/philly....ca.html

Her point (inelegently expressed) was not that she was calling for one, but that the anger and frustration that many minorities have over racial and economic injustice will bubble over if Obama were to lose.  That the 'racial harmony' we like to pretend that we have is more fragile than we realize, if existant at all.

I touched on this idea earlier in the thread, specifically talking about how people would react if Obama lost and if there was suspect happenings a la 2000.

It isn't fear mongering but looking at the frustration that is present and trying to guage it.  I said in that post, that people have invested too much in Obama and if he were to lose, I think the crash would be hard.  And one of the possible outcomes (especially people felt that it was stolen) would be anger.  Remember the L.A. riots?  Yes, some of that was just people taking advantage of a situation, but there was anger and frustation and then the spark.

With some minority Obama supporters you get a double dose.  They are angry with the path this country has taken for the past 8 years and they are tired of the racism that is in their lives.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing them or justifying every one of their complaints, but pointing out that under the 'hope' that Obama brings, there is fear, there is anger, there is frustration.  You may not feel it.  You may not see it.  Most people don't.  And hell, it might not even be justifiable, but it's there.  We can ignore how someone feels and be surprised when something happens, or we can try to understand why they feel what they feel, and then decide if anything can be done about it.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,13:41   

Quote
We're gradually seeing not only the demise of the right-wing faction that has dominated the Republican Party for decades, but also the death of their ugliest and most toxic tactics.   When numerous right-wing figures crawl across one's television set desperately denying and abjectly apologizing for attacks on the patriotism of Democrats and liberals, that is potent evidence that, at least as a matter of political rhetoric, a genuine sea-change is taking place.



http://www.salon.com/opinion....ex.html

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,13:41   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Oct. 22 2008,13:24)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 22 2008,13:39)
       
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 22 2008,12:22)
Will White People Riot if Obama Wins?

Of course, some have promised a race war if Obama loses.


If McCain wins, look for a full-fledged race and class war, fueled by a deflated and depressed country, soaring crime, homelessness - and hopelessness!

No fear mongering here. Please move along.

Hey Heddle...why don't you follow up and read her next column?

http://www.philly.com/philly....ca.html

Her point (inelegently expressed) was not that she was calling for one, but that the anger and frustration that many minorities have over racial and economic injustice will bubble over if Obama were to lose.  That the 'racial harmony' we like to pretend that we have is more fragile than we realize, if existant at all.

I touched on this idea earlier in the thread, specifically talking about how people would react if Obama lost and if there was suspect happenings a la 2000.

It isn't fear mongering but looking at the frustration that is present and trying to guage it.  I said in that post, that people have invested too much in Obama and if he were to lose, I think the crash would be hard.  And one of the possible outcomes (especially people felt that it was stolen) would be anger.  Remember the L.A. riots?  Yes, some of that was just people taking advantage of a situation, but there was anger and frustation and then the spark.

With some minority Obama supporters you get a double dose.  They are angry with the path this country has taken for the past 8 years and they are tired of the racism that is in their lives.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing them or justifying every one of their complaints, but pointing out that under the 'hope' that Obama brings, there is fear, there is anger, there is frustration.  You may not feel it.  You may not see it.  Most people don't.  And hell, it might not even be justifiable, but it's there.  We can ignore how someone feels and be surprised when something happens, or we can try to understand why they feel what they feel, and then decide if anything can be done about it.


I did read the follow-up, and  I didn't say she called for it. And I didn't say she was wrong. It was in response to the article that steve s linked to, which presented an opposite view, if I read it correctly. That article claimed that it was a double standard to worry about AAs rioting if Obama loses and not worry about the Mashed Potato crowd rioting if Obama wins. His example of MLK was especially bad--cities were burning after he was assassinated.

I think Fatimah Ali is probably closer to the truth. But that's just a guess. But to play it safe, if McCain pulls off the upset, I’ll tell my autistic son, who rides his bike everyday, to stay home on Wednesday.

(By the way, I've actually been in several race riots. Not fun at all.)

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,13:45   

I'd also like to add my voice to the 'meh' crowd on the step line issue (full disclosure: haven't seen the link above but aware enough of stepping).

Stepping

This seems more like a cultural confusion than anything.  Yes, it may look creepy to some, and yes it may seem like it has militaristic overtones...but it's not as simple as that.  Take it at more than face value.

Now, I do understand how the chanting and virtue extolling seems creepy and is right along the path that leads some bad places.  Totally agree.  But if you look to the culture of some black people, and begin to understand it, it's not so odd.  Different from what we might be used to, but not the terrible boogie monster that it seems.

Stepping could be co-opted for other ends, without a doubt, but it is a more complex individual/group dynamic than it first seems.

Besides...so what?  Obama isn't telling people that he plans to do this for all of America or wishes all people would...it is people expressing their joy in a way that they enjoy.  Those aren't Obama's only supporters or even representative of most.

When I can access the video, I may change my opinion, but if it is like what I've seen before it is a non-issue.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,13:58   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 22 2008,13:41)
Quote
We're gradually seeing not only the demise of the right-wing faction that has dominated the Republican Party for decades, but also the death of their ugliest and most toxic tactics.   When numerous right-wing figures crawl across one's television set desperately denying and abjectly apologizing for attacks on the patriotism of Democrats and liberals, that is potent evidence that, at least as a matter of political rhetoric, a genuine sea-change is taking place.



http://www.salon.com/opinion....ex.html

I am not nearly so sanguine about the death of negative campaigns.  I tend to believe that, if the economy hadn't gone completely in the shitter, and we were only dealing with the general malaise we have become inured to the last 7 years, the tactics of the McCain campaign would have worked.  But it is hard to distract folks with the shiny baubles of character assassination when they are seeing their whole livelihood at risk.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,14:07   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Oct. 22 2008,19:45)
I'd also like to add my voice to the 'meh' crowd on the step line issue (full disclosure: haven't seen the link above but aware enough of stepping).

Stepping

This seems more like a cultural confusion than anything.  Yes, it may look creepy to some, and yes it may seem like it has militaristic overtones...but it's not as simple as that.  Take it at more than face value.

Now, I do understand how the chanting and virtue extolling seems creepy and is right along the path that leads some bad places.  Totally agree.  But if you look to the culture of some black people, and begin to understand it, it's not so odd.  Different from what we might be used to, but not the terrible boogie monster that it seems.

Stepping could be co-opted for other ends, without a doubt, but it is a more complex individual/group dynamic than it first seems.

Besides...so what?  Obama isn't telling people that he plans to do this for all of America or wishes all people would...it is people expressing their joy in a way that they enjoy.  Those aren't Obama's only supporters or even representative of most.

When I can access the video, I may change my opinion, but if it is like what I've seen before it is a non-issue.

Stepping/step dancing = perfectly valid cultural expression.

Stepping/step dancing combined with fairly mindless recitation of political tropes in a political context = terrifying.

The the juxtaposition of the two elements that scares me, not one element in isolation.

I wonder how tolerant and culturally relativist we'd be if this was a group of shaven headed, white, French youths supporting a Jean Marie LePenn campaign with step dancing of a more European origin and appropriately positive and innocuous slogans.

Louis

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Bye.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,14:11   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 22 2008,14:07)
I wonder how tolerant and culturally relativist we'd be if this was a group of shaven headed, white, French youths supporting a Jean Marie LePenn campaign with step dancing of a more European origin and appropriately positive and innocuous slogans.

Indeed, or perhaps, Jesus Camp.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,14:14   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 22 2008,14:41)
I did read the follow-up, and  I didn't say she called for it. And I didn't say she was wrong. It was in response to the article that steve s linked to, which presented an opposite view, if I read it correctly. That article claimed that it was a double standard to worry about AAs rioting if Obama loses and not worry about the Mashed Potato crowd rioting if Obama wins. His example of MLK was especially bad--cities were burning after he was assassinated.

I think Fatimah Ali is probably closer to the truth. But that's just a guess. But to play it safe, if McCain pulls off the upset, I’ll tell my autistic son, who rides his bike everyday, to stay home on Wednesday.

(By the way, I've actually been in several race riots. Not fun at all.)

See, I think the author of the Root piece isn't comparing apples to apples.

The reason people question about the black community is that there has been near constant frustration from being a minority and there has been more investment in Obama's candidacy than has been seen before.  In a few decades, when white people are the minority and if they feel as if they are being treated unfairly, then we may see the same question turned around.

Now, I think it's stupid to say all black people as a sweeping gesture, but this question might be worth considering in certain areas where racial tension is already high.  If you read the comments on that philly.com website (side note: they lock and delete comment sections that get out of control), and you listen to the people they interview and more...you'll begin to see that, to some, Obama has become the embodiment of the dreams of generations of people.  I think that is a mistake, to place that much on the political destiny of one person, but my opinion doesn't change the fact that more than a few people are overly invested in him.

Generally, it hasn't been a concern to worry about whites because they have been in the power and [i]generally[/] not subjected to racism.  That's not to say that no white people would ever riot if Obama were elected.  But that as a general group that has been in power, they haven't been angry and frustrated enough to do anything.  That's changing though...there is growing resentment towards Mexican immigrants among many typically white communities.  People that would call for the head of someone that used the infamous 'n-word' are be coming less hesitant to denigrate anyone of Mexican descent.

My long-winded point is that the group that is in control will not typically riot because they either A) have other ways of keeping power or B) are too comfy with their life.  Groups that feel oppressed (accurate or not) are more likely to let their anger take over and respond.  (Big note: I'm not saying black or white people are predispoed to either of these actions, but that power will better determine those actions)

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,15:13   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 22 2008,15:07)
Stepping/step dancing = perfectly valid cultural expression.

Stepping/step dancing combined with fairly mindless recitation of political tropes in a political context = terrifying.

The the juxtaposition of the two elements that scares me, not one element in isolation.

I wonder how tolerant and culturally relativist we'd be if this was a group of shaven headed, white, French youths supporting a Jean Marie LePenn campaign with step dancing of a more European origin and appropriately positive and innocuous slogans.

Louis

Again, I'm not saying that it doesn't seem odd and disturbing at face value.  I'm sure it does.  What I'm saying is that we need to look at it in more than a vacuum.

Is chanting a typical part of the dance? - In some areas, yes.

Are these kids being forced to do this? - To my knowledge no, but I can't be sure and I don't think anyone else is either.

Are they being coerced? - Same answer as above.

Are they inciting hatred? - Haven't seen it but I would assume someone would point it out if they had been.

I think Calsonjok posted something about Jesus Camp, which I had always wanted to see.  I can't speak to the similarities and differences myself but I agree that if the step line routine goes beyond expressing excitement and into behavior modification, that's a problem.  Obama is not a way of life and mindless following would be bad.  That type of group dancing and identity can be used to control people, but is it really beyond the possibility that they are just comfortable expressing themselves in this manner?

To truly determine the scariness factor of people, I think we would need to look at their all of their actions and try their willingness to be questioned and challenged and see how they respond.  If a person holds Obama to be flawless and will follow his every command without question...yup, bad.  I think we can all generally agree with that.  But what about if they are simply excited about Obama and that they are trying to get others excited?

Cultural relativity is a tricky thing.  Just because one group calls it their cultural doesn't mean that it is infallible.  That said, something that appears offensive on the surface, may not be so when further understood and explored.  The reverse is true too.  It's hard when something once good has been used to a bad end; perhaps to the point of being unrecoverable.  Being aware of how something may be perceived is important and perhaps the dancers should have been aware of how it could be seen to outsiders.  But perhaps outsiders should also check their own cultural references when presented with something different.

I may retract my opinion once I can see the video, and perhaps I shouldn't have opened my mouth in the first place (wouldn't be the first time).  But what it looks like is people reacting to a superficial event rather than looking deeper.  Irony perhaps, but so be it.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,15:32   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Oct. 22 2008,21:13)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 22 2008,15:07)
Stepping/step dancing = perfectly valid cultural expression.

Stepping/step dancing combined with fairly mindless recitation of political tropes in a political context = terrifying.

The the juxtaposition of the two elements that scares me, not one element in isolation.

I wonder how tolerant and culturally relativist we'd be if this was a group of shaven headed, white, French youths supporting a Jean Marie LePenn campaign with step dancing of a more European origin and appropriately positive and innocuous slogans.

Louis

Again, I'm not saying that it doesn't seem odd and disturbing at face value.  I'm sure it does.  What I'm saying is that we need to look at it in more than a vacuum.

Is chanting a typical part of the dance? - In some areas, yes.

Are these kids being forced to do this? - To my knowledge no, but I can't be sure and I don't think anyone else is either.

Are they being coerced? - Same answer as above.

Are they inciting hatred? - Haven't seen it but I would assume someone would point it out if they had been.

I think Calsonjok posted something about Jesus Camp, which I had always wanted to see.  I can't speak to the similarities and differences myself but I agree that if the step line routine goes beyond expressing excitement and into behavior modification, that's a problem.  Obama is not a way of life and mindless following would be bad.  That type of group dancing and identity can be used to control people, but is it really beyond the possibility that they are just comfortable expressing themselves in this manner?

To truly determine the scariness factor of people, I think we would need to look at their all of their actions and try their willingness to be questioned and challenged and see how they respond.  If a person holds Obama to be flawless and will follow his every command without question...yup, bad.  I think we can all generally agree with that.  But what about if they are simply excited about Obama and that they are trying to get others excited?

Cultural relativity is a tricky thing.  Just because one group calls it their cultural doesn't mean that it is infallible.  That said, something that appears offensive on the surface, may not be so when further understood and explored.  The reverse is true too.  It's hard when something once good has been used to a bad end; perhaps to the point of being unrecoverable.  Being aware of how something may be perceived is important and perhaps the dancers should have been aware of how it could be seen to outsiders.  But perhaps outsiders should also check their own cultural references when presented with something different.

I may retract my opinion once I can see the video, and perhaps I shouldn't have opened my mouth in the first place (wouldn't be the first time).  But what it looks like is people reacting to a superficial event rather than looking deeper.  Irony perhaps, but so be it.

Mouth open = good!

I am looking at it in vastly more than a vacuum. The face value of it isn't an issue. Like I said it's the juxtaposition of the two elements that is disturbing, not merely one or other in isolation.

It's not an issue of mere symbolism (a la swastika), it's the association of techniques appropriate to brainwashing (military, religious or otherwise) with political expressions. Merely singing the praises/enthusiasm for a specific candidate is, again, not an issue (I'd hope people were enthusiastic about politics), it's the combination of the two (I suppose if I'm going to be precise, many) elements. Neither is it an issue of mere difference, it's beyond rare that I react to something merely different with anything other than curiosity.

Take for example the Nuremberg rally. A criticism of what occurred there is hardly a repudiation of outdoor rallies! Rather that criticism is based on the confluence of several elements: the ideology being espoused, the uncritical manner it was designed to be taken in, the cultural/social situation of the period etc. It is explicitly not a face value critique.

I'm not at all worried about the dancing, or how it appears, I'm worried about the combination of a militaristic method of reinforcing certain ideas with a political campaign. Let's be clear: no matter who was doing this, in support of whatever candidate, I would repudiate it.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,15:48   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 22 2008,20:11)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 22 2008,14:07)
I wonder how tolerant and culturally relativist we'd be if this was a group of shaven headed, white, French youths supporting a Jean Marie LePenn campaign with step dancing of a more European origin and appropriately positive and innocuous slogans.

Indeed, or perhaps, Jesus Camp.

Absolutely.

What I seem to be having trouble getting across is that this sort of behaviour is "the enemy" (if we have to think of it in those terms). We're all prone to it. It can happen to anyone, to any group. If we are going to be the guards then we should damn well admit that we are not beyond needing a good guarding ourselves. I think it's important that we all guard each other. (Incidentally, this is why Heddle's tu quoque shitola annoys the arse off me, it's utterly unnecessary, we already KNOW this nonsense exists. Heddle's favourite fallacy of the moment is a distraction from the issues, and little more than petulant whining)

I've always maintained that if people insist on seeing things in terms of "them and us" (something I use as a linguistic convenience and nothing more) then if "we" excoriate "them" for "their" crimes then "we" should be at least as hard on "ourselves" when "we" commit similar crimes. Affiliation is no excuse. Don't close ranks, expose flaws and correct them.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,16:09   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 22 2008,16:32)
Mouth open = good!

I am looking at it in vastly more than a vacuum. The face value of it isn't an issue. Like I said it's the juxtaposition of the two elements that is disturbing, not merely one or other in isolation.

It's not an issue of mere symbolism (a la swastika), it's the association of techniques appropriate to brainwashing (military, religious or otherwise) with political expressions. Merely singing the praises/enthusiasm for a specific candidate is, again, not an issue (I'd hope people were enthusiastic about politics), it's the combination of the two (I suppose if I'm going to be precise, many) elements. Neither is it an issue of mere difference, it's beyond rare that I react to something merely different with anything other than curiosity.

Take for example the Nuremberg rally. A criticism of what occurred there is hardly a repudiation of outdoor rallies! Rather that criticism is based on the confluence of several elements: the ideology being espoused, the uncritical manner it was designed to be taken in, the cultural/social situation of the period etc. It is explicitly not a face value critique.

I'm not at all worried about the dancing, or how it appears, I'm worried about the combination of a militaristic method of reinforcing certain ideas with a political campaign. Let's be clear: no matter who was doing this, in support of whatever candidate, I would repudiate it.

Louis

I have only a moment but I did get to see the video.  I want to make a quick reply now but I don't have time to write long now.  I know you'll all be waiting with bated breath.  Long and short: It isn't the kind of step line that I was thinking/am used to but it still wasn't scary to me.

I did find the recitation of the health plan info strange.  Listing an inspiration is one thing...repeating party platform another.  I think there is more to this but it will have to wait until later tonight.

By the way, I meant I shouldn't have opened my mouth without getting more info first.  In this case, seeing the video.  I was basing my opinion off of what other step line I had seen, not this specific.  I assumed it would be similar, but it wasn't.  Mistake: me.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,16:22   

Quote
I think it's important that we all guard each other. (Incidentally, this is why Heddle's tu quoque shitola annoys the arse off me, it's utterly unnecessary, we already KNOW this nonsense exists. Heddle's favourite fallacy of the moment is a distraction from the issues, and little more than petulant whining)


Erm yes.

I think Heddle's political arguments these days pretty much boil down to this:

1) Heddle: "I am voting for X based on the following logical fallacy or bizarre criterion!"

2) America-Hating Secular Humanist: "Heddle, what's wrong with you? That's a ridiculous logical fallacy! Plus, I can't believe you'd base your decision on Y!"

3) Heddle: "Oh yeah? Oh yeah? Well, I found this example of a LIBERAL doing the same thing!!!"

4) A.H.S.H.: "a) it's not really the same thing, and b) do you really want to BRAG about making your decision some way that you disapprove of when liberals do it???"

(insert random comment about people worshipping Obama here. Start again at Step 3.)

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,16:46   

also,

Sarah Palin is hot.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,16:49   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 22 2008,22:46)
also,

Sarah Palin is hot.

Undeniably so. But Arden told me that he has a soft spot for Obama.....

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Ignatious



Posts: 5
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,16:55   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 22 2008,16:49)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 22 2008,22:46)
also,

Sarah Palin is hot.

Undeniably so. But Arden told me that he has a soft spot for Obama.....

Louis

Er, don't you mean hard spot?

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,17:11   

Quote (Ignatious @ Oct. 22 2008,14:55)
 
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 22 2008,16:49)
 
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 22 2008,22:46)
also,

Sarah Palin is hot.

Undeniably so. But Arden told me that he has a soft spot for Obama.....

Louis

Er, don't you mean hard spot?

Shhhhh. Louis is more used to being soft. Don't hurt his feelings.





Ah, what the heck. Go ahead and hurt his feelings.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,17:29   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 22 2008,12:18)
Creepy?

Those videos were downright fucking horrendous. Seriously, does anyone advocate this kind of mindless brainwashing

<snip>

Yes, yes they do.  We recite both that and the US pledge every morning to start the day. (Followed by our "moment of silence", I'll let you guess the purpose of that.) I try to look busy taking attendance or sorting papers.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,17:52   

Just got a txt from the gf. Turns out her fundamentalist nana* just early voted for Obama despite believing he is in fact a muslim.

Wow. Like that GOP guy said, if their brand were dogfood, they'd take it off the shelves.

*I'm not sure what nana means. Aunt or Grandma, I'm guessing.

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,19:34   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 22 2008,16:22)
 
Quote
I think it's important that we all guard each other. (Incidentally, this is why Heddle's tu quoque shitola annoys the arse off me, it's utterly unnecessary, we already KNOW this nonsense exists. Heddle's favourite fallacy of the moment is a distraction from the issues, and little more than petulant whining)


Erm yes.

I think Heddle's political arguments these days pretty much boil down to this:

1) Heddle: "I am voting for X based on the following logical fallacy or bizarre criterion!"

2) America-Hating Secular Humanist: "Heddle, what's wrong with you? That's a ridiculous logical fallacy! Plus, I can't believe you'd base your decision on Y!"

3) Heddle: "Oh yeah? Oh yeah? Well, I found this example of a LIBERAL doing the same thing!!!"

4) A.H.S.H.: "a) it's not really the same thing, and b) do you really want to BRAG about making your decision some way that you disapprove of when liberals do it???"

(insert random comment about people worshipping Obama here. Start again at Step 3.)

But you have to admit that sometimes I do substitute a Biden gaffe for an Obama Praise & Worship insertion. Call it the Delaware gambit.

Gird your loins boys, gird your loins.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,20:41   

It's mentioned that Arden is hard, Louis is soft, and now Heddle talks about "girding your loins"?

Erm.   ???

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,20:43   

I was watching some t.v. Palin's a rural girl, with a funny accent, who shoots varmints, married an oilworker, has a son who dropped out of high school, and a pregnant teenage daughter whose boyfriend also just dropped out of high school. Suddenly she gets a bunch of money and spends $150 ,000 on clothes in 2 months. Is this the presidential race or an episode of The Beverly Hillbillies?

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,20:56   

i saw that but i was chasing a youngun around.  didn't they say that the gubnor and He-Todd eloped (to 'save their families the extravagant expense of a wedding') and then 6 months later they had a little boy?  I could have missed something.  beverly hillbillies not so much.  Jescoe Goes To Hollywood, that's more like it.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,21:19   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 22 2008,20:43)
I was watching some t.v. Palin's a rural girl, with a funny accent, who shoots varmints, married an oilworker, has a son who dropped out of high school, and a pregnant teenage daughter whose boyfriend also just dropped out of high school. Suddenly she gets a bunch of money and spends $150 ,000 on clothes in 2 months. Is this the presidential race or an episode of The Beverly Hillbillies?

Hey!  Don't forget "The Creepy Old Guy" for comedy relief!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,21:23   

"What did Mr. Dreysdale say?"
"He said we'uz goin' to Warshin'ton"
"You betcha!"

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,21:45   

http://www.politico.com/blogs....showall

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,23:02   

Quote (Wolfhound @ Oct. 22 2008,18:41)
It's mentioned that Arden is hard, Louis is soft, and now Heddle talks about "girding your loins"?

Erm.   ???

Steve likes gladiator films.

You don't want to hear what kind of stuff Erasmus is into.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,23:02   

…and we’re back.  My apologies, I had to dodge and get hit by balls.  On a totally unrelated issue, Arden says hello.  Totally unrelated.

Anyways, I see three issues I want to hit: 1) the videos, 2) how those videos relate to Obama, and 3) the behavior itself.  My own eyes glaze over at the wall of text that follows so we’ve got the short and the long of it.

The short:

1)  Video 1 – didn’t see.  Video 2 – Stupid.  Little kids out of politics please.  Video 3 – Odd and not the type of step line that I was referring to.  The inspiration part isn’t bad but I do find the health plan bit strange.  It also looks to be an isolated incident.

2)  Relation to Obama – unless he, or his campaign, specifically created, encouraged, or approved these videos, irrelevant.  Crazies are ubiquitous but the internet makes them seem more so by being an echo chamber.  If the videos call for violence or the like, Obama should condemn them.  If they are simply obsessed fans, see every fan club in existence.  Famous people have admirers and can’t be held accountable for the actions of their fans, unless the specifically call for it.  Also, those fans do not represent that person and should not be seen as a proxy for said person.

3)  The behavior.  Children out of politics now.  Unthinking, unquestioning is a bad way to be and should be challenged.  While repetition can be used to create unthinking, unquestioning people, that is not always the outcome.  We should be on guard for serious threats but we should not cry wolf at lesser situations.


The long (my condolences to you if you choose to slog through):



1).  The Videos

1st Video Posted from dheddle:
   
Quote
Some more Obama, the son of God Praise and Worship. It will bring you to enraptured tears. May Obama's countenance shine upon thee!


Couldn’t access this video as the site said it no longer existed.  Rather than dig a deeper hole commenting on what I haven’t seen, I pass except to say no one on here feels even close to this way, to my knowledge.  Some people are excited and impressed with him, but that’s the most.  Sure, someone else thinks he is goodness incarnate.  Spectacular.  I think they are an idiot.  But, that doesn’t mean I think Obama is an idiot because he has idiots following him.  Or that I think Palin is now qualified.  Attacking the messenger does not destroy the message.

2nd Video: Little kids singing song.

I made it about a minute into this video before I got annoyed…crappy song, excessive saccharine…on any subject it’s annoying.  But let’s at least address kids singing these songs.  Or kids being involved in politics in general.

I’ve been remarking to people how there are children’s books out about both Obama and McCain and how I think having kids involved in politics is generally a bad idea.  They can’t handle the concepts, the nuance, the animosity, etc.  Some adults can’t for that matter.  Now, that’s not to say that books about Obama and McCain for kids are a bad idea across the board.  Obama is a historic candidate and may make history and inspire generations of kids…minority or no.  There’s plenty of reason for children to look up to him.  McCain has done good and honorable things and his time as a P.O.W. might be a life changing read for a kid.  But, the politics surrounding them are too easy to get caught up in right now.  

Kids are still being dragged in though, just by overhearing their parents.  They are then taking that to school and it’s spreading there.  I know of a 5 year old vehemently supporting McCain and his parents are confused as to where that started.  They say they are undecided and don’t understand why he’s acting this way.  Kids this young follow adults and other groups way too easily to include them in politics.  If Obama’s campaign had anything to do with this, I say boo.  Crappy idea and big thumbs down.

What about if they didn’t?  Shouldn’t they at least express some disapproval of it?  I would hope that they would but, with all of the stupid things some supporters say, they can’t address every idiocy.  There are enough crazies in the world to support everyone and everything and if ANY politician had to object to all the stupid any supporter said nothing would ever get done.  That does not excuse them from ever objecting to anything, but if they don’t know about it, they can’t object to it.  Also, how big is this issue really?  Not a criticism but an honest, how representative is this event outside of this one observation?

The problem of representation is magnified by the internet; it takes one little thing and makes it seem huge by repeating it everywhere.  Look at the Dean Scream or Gore and the internet.  In both those cases, little things became huge things thanks to constant repetition.  Dean had a lot of energy but he also had a microphone that made his audio seem that much stronger that it was.  Gore did exaggerate, as all politicians do, which is bad…but he is credited with his efforts that did aid in the creation of the internet.  He shouldn’t have exaggerated but what he did say has been distorted and has become fact, because of the constant repetition.

The big take home point here is that a politician needs to prioritize his denouncing of idiots because there are usually so many.  To me, Wright is a little above children signing a new age song.  I understand the fear where things can go when indoctrinating children, but I don’t think we are even close to heading that direction yet.  It’s fine to be on the lookout, but don’t miss the bear while looking out for its shadow.

3rd Video:  Step Line dancers

As I mentioned above, this is not the kind of step line I had in mind.  Different form.   Presented as is, it is going an uncomfortable way, but it doesn’t seem to be any official or organized thing.

This is a group of, what 10, young men in some sort of organization.  I know the title is Obama Youth Regiment but is it actually that or it is something different?  Here’s what I found out about the Obama Youth – Junior Fraternity Regiment  From the news so far it was one teacher, not supported by a school, not supported by the campaign.  I tried to go to Urban Community Leadership Academy site but get nothing.   What I don’t see, so far, is any connection to the Obama campaign.  There is no evidence, that I know of, that they had any hand in this and so there is no reason to assume that they did.  Should the Obama campaign denounce this?  I guess, but I again refer you to above, are these 10 kids representative of something more and do they really warrant much attention?

As to the video itself, the first part (entrance to inspiration) isn’t so strange.   There are programs that have to deal with troubled kids and the way they deal with them is very military like.  (Quick note: I’m not saying these kids were troubled, I don’t know.  What I’m saying is that dressing kids in uniforms and making them march and teaching them to live in a group is one way that teachers help those types of kids deal with anti-social issues.  You might see those types of kids dealt with in that manner and it is more about trying to get them out of a destructive mindset.)  To declare what inspires you about someone isn’t a horrible thing, and I don’t think anyone is arguing that part.  They object to the manner and to some extent I agree…but I think it is possible that other situations might have a similar look with a very different intent.   Not the situation here, as far as I know, but it wasn’t something that pinged my RADAR.

I do think the second part with the health plan stuff was strange.  Repeating party talking points in that manner was reminiscent of youth control groups and I agree, dumb move.  It is possible, I guess, that the kids wanted to do this, but I doubt that they would have gotten far without approval of the teacher.  I only mention it as a possibility for academic reasons, but even that to me is a weasel answer.

For the video as a whole, I don’t find it scary because there is no evidence to suggest something like this is common and some evidence to suggest it was a lone event.  As we often tell others, one observation doesn’t make a trend.  It’s not that we should ignore everything below a certain threshold, but rather that reacting to every nut will leave you drained for a real threat.  To me, this seems isolated and singular.  If there is more evidence of youth groups being taught like this, then yes it’s an issue to deal with and something to be on the watch for.  But there is no evidence to assume this is widespread or common and to act like it is draws our attention away from more pressing current concerns.


2.)  Okay, those are my thoughts on the videos…but what do they have to do with Obama?

Well, he is obviously the subject of the videos but does that mean he approves of them?  Does that mean he, or his campaign, encouraged them?   Unless his campaign created these with his approval, they don’t speak for him.  And as I have repeated above, he should denounce what is troubling but don’t expect him to get to every little thing that offends you.  They just don’t have time.  What they prioritize does say something about them, but it should also encourage you to check yourself and see if your own personal gripe is really that big.  I think it is pretty safe to say that there are white power people that are going to be voting for McCain.  Does that mean all of his supporters are that way?  If there is a video of Klansmen extolling the virtues of McCain, does that mean I should discount him?  Essentially, that is what is trying to be said with these videos.  People are putting their own agendas and identities on the candidates or trying to express their support in an inappropriate way.  But that doesn’t mean we should fear Obama will set up mind-washing youth cults any more than McCain will work to eliminate black people.

They should keep themselves away from such things and condemn them if such groups gain any sort of influence, but honestly, all these videos do is show me who Obama shouldn’t add to his cabinet.


3.)  And the last topic, the behavior itself.  I don’t address this to heddle or Louis, but rather a generic “wake/grow the fuck up America”.

I’ve touched on some points above, but first and foremost, get children out of politics.  They don’t get it, they shouldn’t have to get it yet, and it may hurt them.  Teach them about the process and the people (to some extent) but remember that they are children and that their brains just don’t work like adults.  It’s not that they are stupid, but that their world view is easily shaped by adults and their ability to empathize takes time to develop.

Next, be critical of your candidate.  Don’t just assume they are telling the truth.  Yes, you want to believe them but, don’t.  At least, don’t just believe them without checking.   People need to be willing to call out their own candidate no matter what.  The only way you’ll get better government (if you want government Erasmus ;) ) is to truly work out the best.  R, D, or I next to their name, pick the best one.

Which leads somewhat to my next point, they are just people.  Don’t pin all of your life on another person.  They will let you down if you hold them to be perfect.  They will lose, they will fail, they will screw up.  How much so varies, but what they do afterwards matters more.  Do they learn from their mistakes and adjust or just keep doing the same?  Do they make excuses or do they admit responsibility?

All in all, if the Obama campaign is encouraging, funding, or requesting these things then they should be criticized and stop.  If however, these are merely some selected supporters being overzealous, stop trying to connect them to the campaign.  Criticize Obama for his politics, plans, experience or whatever…but criticize him, not his supporters.



As an aside, I would like to suggest one thing on why most people probably won’t care about these videos.  Kids don’t care.  What I mean is that often kids do these things because they must and then move on.  The Pledge of Allegiance for example.  How many American children recite that everyday mindlessly…not even listening to the words?  To me they weren’t even words, it was sounds I made.  When I was little it was what I did because that was what you were supposed to do but when I realized what it all meant I said it a lot less often.  I didn’t care about trying to fight not saying the pledge in school as didn’t seem like a worthwhile fight, but if I didn’t have to say it, I wouldn’t.  But as a kid, no one I knew really thought about the words or believed in them.  The words weren’t internalized; they had no meaning.

Talk with some people that go to church and sing hymns.  Ask them what they are about.  Many don’t really know, they just like singing.  Actually, you don’t even need that…most songs that people sing.  Even if they know all the words, sometimes they don’t know the meaning.  People will sing a song for decades and not think about what it means.  That doesn’t, in and of itself, mean that they support what the song means.  It just may be that they are ignorant of it.

So then it doesn’t matter what people repeat mindlessly, as long as they don’t believe it?  No.  What is said does matter, but what I’m trying to get at is that people remember being kids and having to do silly things like that.  And they know that it didn’t mean anything to them.

All of that above being said, yes, we still need to be on guard for someone that tries to exploit such a thing.  We do need to watch that a charismatic leader doesn’t abuse power and bend the will of others.    But I think we just need to balance that with a little bit of realism.  The kids are probably more concerned about singing a good song than what it says.  When they start to rely on the song more than critical thinking, that’s bad.  Where that line starts is a matter of debate and one that perhaps people should have; with themselves and others.

My thanks and congratulations for reading this far.  I don’t know if I could have handled something this long and repetitive.  I’m off to bed and wish you all a fondue.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,23:11   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 22 2008,23:02)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Oct. 22 2008,18:41)
It's mentioned that Arden is hard, Louis is soft, and now Heddle talks about "girding your loins"?

Erm.   ???

Steve likes gladiator films.

You don't want to hear what kind of stuff Erasmus is into.



I don't want some other weirdo a-wearin' my costly shades.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,23:22   

sheesh spottedlongwind.  you spent a lot of time on what is probably just some incendiary irrelevant shit heddle spouted off during a break between watching Nascar highlights on Youtube and trolling Ed Brayton's blog.  Luv ya heddle, you rascally iconoclast you.  

Anyway, I too noticed that the crap those punks were doing in that video is not step dancing.  I went to Brick U, we had step dancing outside my dorm every day.  Yawn.  Between those jackasses and the urban cowboys roping traffic cones and drinking likker out of dixie cups, it was a multicultural freak show.  


This is more what I was talking about.  Or something.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,01:03   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 22 2008,15:52)
Just got a txt from the gf. Turns out her fundamentalist nana* just early voted for Obama despite believing he is in fact a muslim.

Wow. Like that GOP guy said, if their brand were dogfood, they'd take it off the shelves.

*I'm not sure what nana means. Aunt or Grandma, I'm guessing.

That is so cool.

PS: Nana is a grandmother last I checked.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,02:37   

Quote (Ignatious @ Oct. 22 2008,22:55)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 22 2008,16:49)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 22 2008,22:46)
also,

Sarah Palin is hot.

Undeniably so. But Arden told me that he has a soft spot for Obama.....

Louis

Er, don't you mean hard spot?

I know what I meant.

Think about it.

{pauses}

Ewwwwwwww.

There you go.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,06:36   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 23 2008,00:22)
sheesh spottedlongwind.  you spent a lot of time on what is probably just some incendiary irrelevant shit heddle spouted off during a break between watching Nascar highlights on Youtube and trolling Ed Brayton's blog.  Luv ya heddle, you rascally iconoclast you.  

Anyway, I too noticed that the crap those punks were doing in that video is not step dancing.  I went to Brick U, we had step dancing outside my dorm every day.  Yawn.  Between those jackasses and the urban cowboys roping traffic cones and drinking likker out of dixie cups, it was a multicultural freak show.  


This is more what I was talking about.  Or something.

Hehehe..yeah, I tend to be rather vebrose on teh Interwebs.  It's too easy to be unclear and have a misunderstanding over a typo or just a poorly communicated idea.  I still do both, but I try to limit it.

I'll have to check out the video you linked later today and see if it was more what I had in mind.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,09:30   

Palin in 2012?

I've heard people mention it in passing and I'm curious if it is growing.

Here's another, but sadly I can't access it at work.

And that's enough politics for today.  Focusing on it too much.  Time to go read some science threads.

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,16:10   

This week's Christopher Hitchens column in Slate criticizes Palin's apparent support for "teach the controversy":
 
Quote
The same vaguely cunning wish to have everything both ways is to be found in her suggestion that both evolution and creationism be taught in our schools. In one way, this seems fair enough—if the Scopes trial is taught in history class, then the views of William Jennings Bryan and those of Clarence Darrow and H.L. Mencken must necessarily be given equal time. But that is not the same as saying that classes in biology or geology be diluted by instruction in what is laughably called "intelligent design." It would be like giving equal time to alchemy and astrology. "You know, don't be afraid of information," as she so winningly phrased it in a gubernatorial debate. "Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both."

And:
 
Quote
I would like to ask her whether by this she means that creationism ought to be given equal time in science classes. And I have a follow-up: How many years old does the Republican nominee for the vice presidency of the United States believe the Earth to be? There are several other questions I would like to ask her, as, no doubt, would you. Lots of luck with that, because it seems that the Grand Old Party intends to go all the way to Election Day without exposing the No. 2 person on its ticket—the person who would become chief executive if President John McCain succumbed to illness—to a press conference.


--------------
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
huwp



Posts: 172
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,18:03   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 22 2008,17:52)
*I'm not sure what nana means. Aunt or Grandma, I'm guessing.

FWIW one of my grandmothers was "Nana".

There you go.

Well, bugger me, that added a lot to the discussion.  Tell you what, I'll get me coat...

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,18:36   

From Leon Wieseltier, the literary editor at The New Republic:

Quote
McCain feels with his heart, but he thinks with his base. And when he picked Sarah Palin, he told the United States of America to go fuck itself. I used to think of my dilemma this way: Obama's conception of America is better than he is, McCain's conception of America is worse than he is. But McCain is looking more and more like his America, which is Bush's America: a country of capitalists and Christians. I do not know how to explain what has become of him.


--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,21:21   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 23 2008,00:02)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Oct. 22 2008,18:41)
It's mentioned that Arden is hard, Louis is soft, and now Heddle talks about "girding your loins"?

Erm.   ???

Steve likes gladiator films.

You don't want to hear what kind of stuff Erasmus is into.

Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

   
George



Posts: 316
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,07:35   

I posted off my absentee ballot yesterday.  You might like to know that I voted for truth, freedom and the American way.









YES on the county liquor referendum.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,07:48   

Quote (George @ Oct. 24 2008,07:35)
I posted off my absentee ballot yesterday.  You might like to know that I voted for truth, freedom and the American way.

But Ronald Reagan is dead. What a wasted vote. On second thought, I like the symbolism.

Edited to make my not-so-funny joke look a little less not-so-funny. Just a little.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,08:04   

Remember back to when the Reagan administration had to explain the information coming out that they were having some dealings with Iran and they said it was because of their deep concern for the few incidental American citizens Iran had in custody? I recall thinking that was a puzzler, since Reagan seemed to have no regard for the welfare of individual Americans anywhere else, and certainly not so much regard as to go back on some principle as clearly stated as "no negotiations with terrorists".

Then the news broke that the stuff going on with Iran enabled the Reagan administration to funnel off-the-books money to the Contras in Nicaragua. Being able to finance loads of mercenaries killing people at will in South America sounded so much more like Reagan than the weak-willed act that had been their previous cover story that I had an "Aha!" moment right then.

But since I have higher regard for what "truth, freedom, and the American way" should mean, I've never made any such association with the admitted-lying, anti-civil-liberties, trickle-down-elitism of the Reagan administration and its figurehead.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,08:17   

Gosh Wes, lighten up! Every indication is the civil liberties will do just fine under Obama. (*vurp*)

And have some sympathy. I am  a man who has just looked into the abyss, and the abyss looked back, laughing.

My World, Turned Upside Down

Edit: typo

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,08:32   

Quote
(Jonathan Martin, Mike Allen and John F. Harris, Politico)
With despair rising even among many of John McCain’s own advisors, influential Republicans inside and outside his campaign are engaged in an intense round of blame-casting and rear-covering—-much of it virtually conceding that an Election Day rout is likely... These public comments offer a whiff of an increasingly acrid behind-the-scenes GOP meltdown—a blame game played out through not-for-attribution comments to reporters that operatives know will find their way into circulation. At his Northern Virginia headquarters, some McCain aides are already speaking of the campaign in the past tense. Morale, even among some of the heartiest and most loyal staffers, has plummeted... One well-connected Republican in the private sector was shocked to get calls and resumes in the past few days from what he said were senior McCain aides – a breach of custom for even the worst-off campaigns... “The cake is baked,” agreed a former McCain strategist. “We’re entering the finger-pointing and positioning-for-history part of the campaign. It’s every man for himself now.”


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14891.html

i like this 'cake is baked' line, but then I'm always a sucker for assonance.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,08:34   

Quote
29 user(s) active in the past 15 minutes
20 guests, 8 Public Members and 1 Anonymous Members   [ View Complete List ]
>stevestory >Venus Mousetrap >Gunthernacus >dheddle >Tom >oldmanintheskydidntdoit >Occam's Aftershave >Jkrebs


Hmm...that last line's apparently going to have to wait for Louis or Arden to wake up.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,08:45   

You know who hasn't been assonant? That Bristol Palin.

Ba dump tish!

Week veal waitress peace out.

   
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,08:46   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 24 2008,09:34)
 
Quote
29 user(s) active in the past 15 minutes
20 guests, 8 Public Members and 1 Anonymous Members   [ View Complete List ]
>stevestory >Venus Mousetrap >Gunthernacus >dheddle >Tom >oldmanintheskydidntdoit >Occam's Aftershave >Jkrebs


Hmm...that last line's apparently going to have to wait for Louis or Arden to wake up.

Aww, steve, come on give them some snuggle time.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,08:52   

AHAHAHAHAHA. That's just great. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,09:01   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 24 2008,08:32)
I'm always a sucker for assonance.

Okay. I'll give it a shot.

{clears throat}

HOMO

{bows}

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,09:13   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 24 2008,10:01)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 24 2008,08:32)
I'm always a sucker for assonance.

Okay. I'll give it a shot.

{clears throat}

HOMO

{bows}

:D

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,10:08   

David, you may take comfort in that FiveThirtyEight.com puts Zogby as a mid-rank poll source based on analysis of pollster-introduced error.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,10:26   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 24 2008,08:17)
Gosh Wes, lighten up! Every indication is the civil liberties will do just fine under Obama. (*vurp*)

And have some sympathy. I am  a man who has just looked into the abyss, and the abyss looked back, laughing.

My World, Turned Upside Down

Edit: typo

Your world may get even more topsy-turvy, David.  According to this article in the WaPo (yeah, I know, biased liberal media source), NASCAR sponsorship (80% of the income for most NASCAR teams) may dry up because of the bad economy. You might be reduced to watching go-cart races at your local county fair...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
EyeNoU



Posts: 115
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,11:39   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 24 2008,10:26)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 24 2008,08:17)
Gosh Wes, lighten up! Every indication is the civil liberties will do just fine under Obama. (*vurp*)

And have some sympathy. I am  a man who has just looked into the abyss, and the abyss looked back, laughing.

My World, Turned Upside Down

Edit: typo

Your world may get even more topsy-turvy, David.  According to this article in the WaPo (yeah, I know, biased liberal media source), NASCAR sponsorship (80% of the income for most NASCAR teams) may dry up because of the bad economy. You might be reduced to watching go-cart races at your local county fair...

Heddle at the races after the election?


  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,12:24   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 24 2008,10:26)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 24 2008,08:17)
Gosh Wes, lighten up! Every indication is the civil liberties will do just fine under Obama. (*vurp*)

And have some sympathy. I am  a man who has just looked into the abyss, and the abyss looked back, laughing.

My World, Turned Upside Down

Edit: typo

Your world may get even more topsy-turvy, David.  According to this article in the WaPo (yeah, I know, biased liberal media source), NASCAR sponsorship (80% of the income for most NASCAR teams) may dry up because of the bad economy. You might be reduced to watching go-cart races at your local county fair...

I'm counting on Obama to fix that. One part of his $900B spending increase is a little known plan to Nationalize NASCAR and place in under the control of a new Ministry of Sports, Well Being, Clean Nappies, and Haberdasheries. No more sponsorship woes. The People have a right to NASCAR.

Of course, speeds will be limited to 55 mph for the good of the people. And only one race a year. And everyone is a winner. And all the fuel must be derived from corn and raw sewage. And there will be a 200% tax "revenue enhancer" on all corn dogs. And all coffee must be sold at a temperature between the federally approved guidelines of 96.71 and 98.34 degrees Celsius. And for each regular pit stall, there must be a pit stall with one of those handicapped logos. And if any of the reporters say something negative about a driver, like "he's just not going into the turn hard enough" the driver must, under the Fairness Doctrine, be given equal air time to rebut the charges. And the teams' radio communications will be subject to FISA wiretaps. And...

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,12:32   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 24 2008,12:24)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 24 2008,10:26)
   
Your world may get even more topsy-turvy, David.  According to this article in the WaPo (yeah, I know, biased liberal media source), NASCAR sponsorship (80% of the income for most NASCAR teams) may dry up because of the bad economy. You might be reduced to watching go-cart races at your local county fair...

I'm counting on Obama to fix that. One part of his $900B spending increase is a little known plan to Nationalize NASCAR and place in under the control of a new Ministry of Sports, Well Being, Clean Nappies, and Haberdasheries. No more sponsorship woes. The People have a right to NASCAR.

Of course, speeds will be limited to 55 mph for the good of the people. And only one race a year. And everyone is a winner. And all the fuel must be derived from corn and raw sewage. And there will be a 200% tax "revenue enhancer" on all corn dogs. And all coffee must be sold at a temperature between the federally approved guidelines of 96.71 and 98.34 degrees Celsius. And for each regular pit stall, there must be a pit stall with one of those handicapped logos. And if any of the reporters say something negative about a driver, like "he's just not going into the turn hard enough" the driver must, under the Fairness Doctrine, be given equal air time to rebut the charges. And the teams' radio communications will be subject to FISA wiretaps. And...

Well, one thing that doesn't need to change is the drivers having to turn to the left.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,12:58   

I hope this isn't off topic, being a politics thread and all, but this video broke something in me: a member of Iraq veterans against the war getting stomped in the face by a police horse.

I've seen riots up close and personal and that guy certainly doesn't seem like someone who can be credibly called a threat to the police officers present from what I can see.

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,13:32   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 24 2008,12:32)
Well, one thing that doesn't need to change is the drivers having to turn to the left.

Good one!

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,17:17   

Quote (George @ Oct. 24 2008,08:35)
I posted off my absentee ballot yesterday.  You might like to know that I voted for truth, freedom and the American way.









YES on the county liquor referendum.

I voted early today; the workers were all knowledgeable and patient.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,17:19   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 24 2008,09:04)
Remember back to when the Reagan administration had to explain the information coming out that they were having some dealings with Iran and they said it was because of their deep concern for the few incidental American citizens Iran had in custody? I recall thinking that was a puzzler, since Reagan seemed to have no regard for the welfare of individual Americans anywhere else, and certainly not so much regard as to go back on some principle as clearly stated as "no negotiations with terrorists".

Then the news broke that the stuff going on with Iran enabled the Reagan administration to funnel off-the-books money to the Contras in Nicaragua. Being able to finance loads of mercenaries killing people at will in South America sounded so much more like Reagan than the weak-willed act that had been their previous cover story that I had an "Aha!" moment right then.

But since I have higher regard for what "truth, freedom, and the American way" should mean, I've never made any such association with the admitted-lying, anti-civil-liberties, trickle-down-elitism of the Reagan administration and its figurehead.

Misogynistic lying bastards.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,17:21   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 24 2008,13:24)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 24 2008,10:26)
     
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 24 2008,08:17)
Gosh Wes, lighten up! Every indication is the civil liberties will do just fine under Obama. (*vurp*)

And have some sympathy. I am  a man who has just looked into the abyss, and the abyss looked back, laughing.

My World, Turned Upside Down

Edit: typo

Your world may get even more topsy-turvy, David.  According to this article in the WaPo (yeah, I know, biased liberal media source), NASCAR sponsorship (80% of the income for most NASCAR teams) may dry up because of the bad economy. You might be reduced to watching go-cart races at your local county fair...

I'm counting on Obama to fix that. One part of his $900B spending increase is a little known plan to Nationalize NASCAR and place in under the control of a new Ministry of Sports, Well Being, Clean Nappies, and Haberdasheries. No more sponsorship woes. The People have a right to NASCAR.

Of course, speeds will be limited to 55 mph for the good of the people. And only one race a year. And everyone is a winner. And all the fuel must be derived from corn and raw sewage. And there will be a 200% tax "revenue enhancer" on all corn dogs. And all coffee must be sold at a temperature between the federally approved guidelines of 96.71 and 98.34 degrees Celsius. And for each regular pit stall, there must be a pit stall with one of those handicapped logos. And if any of the reporters say something negative about a driver, like "he's just not going into the turn hard enough" the driver must, under the Fairness Doctrine, be given equal air time to rebut the charges. And the teams' radio communications will be subject to FISA wiretaps. And...

You're beginning to blither.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,17:38   

(LOL beginning?...anyway)

"the choice of Sarah Palin at a time of deep national crisis" has apparently caused a McCain advisor to vote for Obama. Ouch.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,18:26   

Quote
To the extent that geography correlates with ideology among congressional Republicans, a major sweep by the Democrats could really be in a position to completely break the gluons that bind the broader party together. The GOP will lose a disportionate number of seats in the Northeast, Midwest and West and keep a disprortionate number of seats in the South. So the remnant of the party, as it were, will be right-wing Southern conservatives.... even more so that it is now.


Part of me enjoys the schadenfreude, but it's also worrisome. The GOP going full-retard would allow the Dems to get sloppy and corrupt.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,19:51   

One of the UD nuts claimed that Obama was going to Hawaii not to deal with his sick grandma, but to do some shenanigans w/r/t his fake birth certificate. Well apparently some conservative big guns are saying the same thing.

Quote
Conservative media figures allege Obama's Hawaii trip is about discredited birth-certificate rumors, not his ailing grandmother

   Summary: Michael Savage, Rush Limbaugh, and Jerome Corsi suggested or asserted that the true purpose of Sen. Barack Obama's current trip to Hawaii is not to visit his ailing grandmother, as Obama claims, but rather to address rumors -- widely debunked -- that Obama has failed to produce a valid U.S. birth certificate. However, in addition to FactCheck.org and a Hawaiian Health Department official, even Corsi's employer, the right-wing website WorldNetDaily, has reportedly determined that the birth certificate provided by the Obama campaign is authentic.


http://mediamatters.org/items/200810230020?f=h_latest

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,20:08   

Quote
Five thirty eight now estimates McCain's chances to win at less than 4%, and calculates about a 50-50 chance of an Obama landslide of 375 or more. The five most likely scenarios are now all between 375 and 380 electoral votes for B.O.


http://www.othercrap.com/

btw how do you even spend $150,000 on clothes? Ten years ago I had a gf who would go to Gainesville and buy like $300 Ferragamos, but $150,000 would be 500 pairs of them! WTF

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,20:15   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 24 2008,21:08)
Quote
Five thirty eight now estimates McCain's chances to win at less than 4%, and calculates about a 50-50 chance of an Obama landslide of 375 or more. The five most likely scenarios are now all between 375 and 380 electoral votes for B.O.


http://www.othercrap.com/

btw how do you even spend $150,000 on clothes? Ten years ago I had a gf who would go to Gainesville and buy like $300 Ferragamos, but $150,000 would be 500 pairs of them! WTF

My house and and car and IRAs are not worth $150,000.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,21:30   

Quote (khan @ Oct. 24 2008,18:15)
My house and car and IRAs are not worth $150,000.

Mine used to be.

:(


Edited to fix double "and" which Khan would fix if Khan can haz edit button.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,23:34   

Quote
   For years, many of the elite conservatives were happy to harvest the votes of devout Christians and gun owners by waging a phony class war against “liberal elitists” and “leftist intellectuals.” Suddenly, the conservative writers are discovering that the very anti-intellectualism their side courted and encouraged has begun to consume their movement.

   The cause of Edmund Burke, Leo Strauss, Robert Nisbet and William F. Buckley Jr. is now in the hands of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity — and Sarah Palin. Reason has been overwhelmed by propaganda, ideas by slogans, learned manifestoes by direct-mail hit pieces.


http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2008....opinion

   
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,00:17   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 25 2008,07:34)
Quote
   For years, many of the elite conservatives were happy to harvest the votes of devout Christians and gun owners by waging a phony class war against “liberal elitists” and “leftist intellectuals.” Suddenly, the conservative writers are discovering that the very anti-intellectualism their side courted and encouraged has begun to consume their movement.

   The cause of Edmund Burke, Leo Strauss, Robert Nisbet and William F. Buckley Jr. is now in the hands of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity — and Sarah Palin. Reason has been overwhelmed by propaganda, ideas by slogans, learned manifestoes by direct-mail hit pieces.


http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2008....opinion

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

REPUBLICANS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IN A PHONY PROPAGANDA CLASS WAR WITH ELITIST HOMO LIBRULS AND COMMIE INTELLECTUALS.

WHAT IS THE NEWSPEAK DOUBLE PLUS GOOD MANIFESTO FOR THE NEW REPUBLICANS ????

"U WANT FRIES WITH THAT?"


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Gunthernacus



Posts: 235
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,08:52   

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/24/palin-fruit-flies/

   
Quote
This morning, Gov. Sarah Palin (R-AK) gave her first policy speech urging the federal government to fully fund the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), “a law ensuring services to children with disabilities throughout the nation.” In the speech, Palin cited the need to do more for children with disabilities such as autism...

[Palin:] Where does a lot of that earmark money end up anyway? […] You’ve heard about some of these pet projects they really don’t make a whole lot of sense and sometimes these dollars go to projects that have little or nothing to do with the public good. Things like fruit fly research in Paris, France. I kid you not.

An FtK style attack on science that she doesn't understand and can't get instant gratification/results from. "I kid you not"?  It's like reading an FtK blog.
   
Quote
Palin did not specify what fruit fly research earmark she was referring to (presumably a grant for olive fruit fly research), but she is apparently unaware that scientific research with fruit flies has led to valuable discoveries that have boosted autism research, as a study at the University of North Carolina demonstrated last year

Links at the linked.  Also, the IDEA acronym leads to all sorts of Sal jokes, but I haven't had enough coffee yet.

--------------
Given that we are all descended from Adam and Eve...genetic defects as a result of intra-family marriage would not begin to crop up until after the first few dozen generations. - Dr. Hugh Ross

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,09:23   

Quote (Gunthernacus @ Oct. 25 2008,08:52)
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/24/palin-fruit-flies/

     
Quote
This morning, Gov. Sarah Palin (R-AK) gave her first policy speech urging the federal government to fully fund the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), “a law ensuring services to children with disabilities throughout the nation.” In the speech, Palin cited the need to do more for children with disabilities such as autism...

[Palin:] Where does a lot of that earmark money end up anyway? […] You’ve heard about some of these pet projects they really don’t make a whole lot of sense and sometimes these dollars go to projects that have little or nothing to do with the public good. Things like fruit fly research in Paris, France. I kid you not.

An FtK style attack on science that she doesn't understand and can't get instant gratification/results from. "I kid you not"?  It's like reading an FtK blog.
     
Quote
Palin did not specify what fruit fly research earmark she was referring to (presumably a grant for olive fruit fly research), but she is apparently unaware that scientific research with fruit flies has led to valuable discoveries that have boosted autism research, as a study at the University of North Carolina demonstrated last year

Links at the linked.  Also, the IDEA acronym leads to all sorts of Sal jokes, but I haven't had enough coffee yet.

Crosspost of a comment I made on Pharyngula:

What Palin said is not so crazy. Scarce scientific research funds should be allocated on merit, based on a peer review of competing proposals. Apply for grants, make a scientific case, receive your grant. That's how it should work. Was this an earmark that went directly to the researcher or research team, or was it to some state agency that then invited grant proposals? If its the former, she has a point.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,10:24   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,17:23)
Quote (Gunthernacus @ Oct. 25 2008,08:52)
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/24/palin-fruit-flies/

     
Quote
This morning, Gov. Sarah Palin (R-AK) gave her first policy speech urging the federal government to fully fund the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), “a law ensuring services to children with disabilities throughout the nation.” In the speech, Palin cited the need to do more for children with disabilities such as autism...

[Palin:] Where does a lot of that earmark money end up anyway? […] You’ve heard about some of these pet projects they really don’t make a whole lot of sense and sometimes these dollars go to projects that have little or nothing to do with the public good. Things like fruit fly research in Paris, France. I kid you not.

An FtK style attack on science that she doesn't understand and can't get instant gratification/results from. "I kid you not"?  It's like reading an FtK blog.
     
Quote
Palin did not specify what fruit fly research earmark she was referring to (presumably a grant for olive fruit fly research), but she is apparently unaware that scientific research with fruit flies has led to valuable discoveries that have boosted autism research, as a study at the University of North Carolina demonstrated last year

Links at the linked.  Also, the IDEA acronym leads to all sorts of Sal jokes, but I haven't had enough coffee yet.

Crosspost of a comment I made on Pharyngula:

What Palin said is not so crazy. Scarce scientific research funds should be allocated on merit, based on a peer review of competing proposals. Apply for grants, make a scientific case, receive your grant. That's how it should work. Was this an earmark that went directly to the researcher or research team, or was it to some state agency that then invited grant proposals? If its the former, she has a point.

Come on Heddle how would she even fit that in between performing on talk shows and shopping ?


Or are you supporting the war on science?

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Gunthernacus



Posts: 235
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,10:25   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,10:23)
Crosspost of a comment I made on Pharyngula:

What Palin said is not so crazy. Scarce scientific research funds should be allocated on merit, based on a peer review of competing proposals. Apply for grants, make a scientific case, receive your grant. That's how it should work. Was this an earmark that went directly to the researcher or research team, or was it to some state agency that then invited grant proposals? If its the former, she has a point.

"Scarce scientific research funds" - exactly.  Can the process for awarding research funds be improved - certainly.  If her argument is about mismanagement of funds, that argument applies to most, if not all, government spending.  Why is she handing out pitchforks and torches over "scarce scientific research funds", when there are so many other more blatant examples like, oh, $10 billion a month in Iraq - or $150,000 on designer clothes for Mrs. Hockey-mom, Jane-six-pack, Real America?  The "I kid you not" eye-rolling, as if those "ivory tower liberals elites" are the only - or even significant - ones to misuse tax payer funds, is pathetic class/culture warfare.  She flings fruit-fly research out there for ridicule when she clearly is unaware of the medical and economic benefits shows just what a vapid FtK clone she is.

--------------
Given that we are all descended from Adam and Eve...genetic defects as a result of intra-family marriage would not begin to crop up until after the first few dozen generations. - Dr. Hugh Ross

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,11:16   

Ken Ham's blog drew my attention to this:

http://mythandhope.blogspot.com/2008....ky.html

Quote
In Kentucky, the Creation Museum and McCain come together.

May they crawl together forever in the primeval mud.


Ham can't have any criticism at all of course:


http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/aroundt....-museum

Quote
They just can’t help themselves—they have to mock because they can’t use logic and reason!


Although he doesn't reveal who he's going to vote for, he did write this:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/au/for-whom-should-we-vote

Quote
So I recognized that as we consider candidates, we cannot see their hearts. Christians must evaluate them by their actions and words—judging those actions against the absolute authority of the Word of God.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,11:22   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,15:23)
Quote (Gunthernacus @ Oct. 25 2008,08:52)
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/24/palin-fruit-flies/

     
Quote
This morning, Gov. Sarah Palin (R-AK) gave her first policy speech urging the federal government to fully fund the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), “a law ensuring services to children with disabilities throughout the nation.” In the speech, Palin cited the need to do more for children with disabilities such as autism...

[Palin:] Where does a lot of that earmark money end up anyway? […] You’ve heard about some of these pet projects they really don’t make a whole lot of sense and sometimes these dollars go to projects that have little or nothing to do with the public good. Things like fruit fly research in Paris, France. I kid you not.

An FtK style attack on science that she doesn't understand and can't get instant gratification/results from. "I kid you not"?  It's like reading an FtK blog.
     
Quote
Palin did not specify what fruit fly research earmark she was referring to (presumably a grant for olive fruit fly research), but she is apparently unaware that scientific research with fruit flies has led to valuable discoveries that have boosted autism research, as a study at the University of North Carolina demonstrated last year

Links at the linked.  Also, the IDEA acronym leads to all sorts of Sal jokes, but I haven't had enough coffee yet.

Crosspost of a comment I made on Pharyngula:

What Palin said is not so crazy. Scarce scientific research funds should be allocated on merit, based on a peer review of competing proposals. Apply for grants, make a scientific case, receive your grant. That's how it should work. Was this an earmark that went directly to the researcher or research team, or was it to some state agency that then invited grant proposals? If its the former, she has a point.

Ye gods it's amusing to what lengths Heddle will go to maintain his identity political support of an evangelical ignoramus in the face of said evangelical's obvious participation in the religious right's war on science.

Fuckwittery thy name is, Heddle.

Quote
Scarce scientific research funds should be allocated on merit, based on a peer review of competing proposals. Apply for grants, make a scientific case, receive your grant. That's how it should work.


That's how it DOES work. Palin is touting her agreement with what already happens in a suitably framed manner to appear anti-intellectual (and hence court the moron vote) and yet maintain sufficient plausible deniability to appear "pro-science" when called on it. Her mere existence is anti-science, no more needs be said. Anyone that can espouse the relativist rhetoric of ID and claim a ~6k year old earth needs no help in the ridiculous anti-science stakes. Heddle's increasingly desperate attempts to maintain his cognitively dissonant* support of an anti-science freak is yet again noted.

Louis

* If it is indeed dissonant. My guess is Heddle is in reality anti-science despite career efforts and protestations to the contrary. Many people engage in a career merely because they were reasonably good at it/cannot imagine another. IMO Heddle falls into that category: the worst kind of seat filling charlatan, occupying a position that could go to someone better qualified and less ideologically compromised.

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,11:27   

Hmmmmm perhaps I shouldn't post after 6 pints of Guinness and a loss to Cardiff Blues by the Tigers. It seems to make me mean.

Pfffff it matters not.

Louis

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Bye.

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,11:30   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 25 2008,17:27)
Hmmmmm perhaps I shouldn't post after 6 pints of Guinness and a loss to Cardiff Blues by the Tigers. It seems to make me mean.

Pfffff it matters not.

Louis

Louis a mean drunk? I would never have guessed it!

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,11:37   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 25 2008,11:27)
Hmmmmm perhaps I shouldn't post after 6 pints of Guinness and a loss to Cardiff Blues by the Tigers. It seems to make me mean.

Pfffff it matters not.

Louis

No, it seems to make you even more stupid.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,11:42   

Quote (Gunthernacus @ Oct. 25 2008,10:25)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,10:23)
Crosspost of a comment I made on Pharyngula:

What Palin said is not so crazy. Scarce scientific research funds should be allocated on merit, based on a peer review of competing proposals. Apply for grants, make a scientific case, receive your grant. That's how it should work. Was this an earmark that went directly to the researcher or research team, or was it to some state agency that then invited grant proposals? If its the former, she has a point.

"Scarce scientific research funds" - exactly.  Can the process for awarding research funds be improved - certainly.  If her argument is about mismanagement of funds, that argument applies to most, if not all, government spending.  Why is she handing out pitchforks and torches over "scarce scientific research funds", when there are so many other more blatant examples like, oh, $10 billion a month in Iraq - or $150,000 on designer clothes for Mrs. Hockey-mom, Jane-six-pack, Real America?  The "I kid you not" eye-rolling, as if those "ivory tower liberals elites" are the only - or even significant - ones to misuse tax payer funds, is pathetic class/culture warfare.  She flings fruit-fly research out there for ridicule when she clearly is unaware of the medical and economic benefits shows just what a vapid FtK clone she is.

Funds to Iraq, expensive wardrobes, etc-- I agree.

The narrow point is that *if* the grant for fruit-fly research used an earmark to bypass  peer review, then no matter what its merits, it deserves to be criticized. I believe all those scientists who submitted grant proposals that were not funded would likely agree. All scientific research funds, except perhaps under some extreme circumstances, should be awarded on the basis of peer review.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,11:45   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,19:37)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 25 2008,11:27)
Hmmmmm perhaps I shouldn't post after 6 pints of Guinness and a loss to Cardiff Blues by the Tigers. It seems to make me mean.

Pfffff it matters not.

Louis

No, it seems to make you even more stupid.

hahahahahahahaha

AD HOMINEM!

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2561
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,13:43   

Quote
The narrow point is that *if* the grant for fruit-fly research used an earmark to bypass  peer review, then no matter what its merits, it deserves to be criticized. I believe all those scientists who submitted grant proposals that were not funded would likely agree. All scientific research funds, except perhaps under some extreme circumstances, should be awarded on the basis of peer review.


You're lucky, as a physicist in an ivory tower.  But the research that was funded was rather different.  

Quote
"The Olive Fruit Fly has infested thousands of California olive groves and is the single largest threat to the U.S. olive and olive oil industries," he said. "I secured $748,000 for olive fruit fly research and irradiation in the (fiscal year 2008) appropriations bill for the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The USDA will use some of that funding for their research facility in France. This USDA research facility is located in France because Mediterranean countries like France have dealt with the Olive Fruit Fly for decades, while California has only been exposed since the late 1990s. This is not uncommon; the USDA has several international research facilities throughout the world, including Australia, China and Argentina."


There are probably very few groups working on the olive fruit fly in the US, and the sorts of scientists who submit grant proposals will be more interested in more basic research.  In this case it looks like the USDA had a specific applied problem that needed solving, and it was clear who had to do it and what they had to do.  Putting the research out to tender would just be pissing around.

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,14:56   

Then there is the fact that Palin's remarks were not made within the context of a policy discussion about reforming how funds for scientific research are disbursed as Heddle is so ardently trying to argue. Rather, they were made within the context of promoting the public good:

Quote
You’ve heard about some of these pet projects they really don’t make a whole lot of sense and sometimes these dollars go to projects that have little or nothing to do with the public good. Things like fruit fly research in Paris, France. I kid you not.


This:


Quote
"The Olive Fruit Fly has infested thousands of California olive groves and is the single largest threat to the U.S. olive and olive oil industries," he said. "I secured $748,000 for olive fruit fly research and irradiation in the (fiscal year 2008) appropriations bill for the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The USDA will use some of that funding for their research facility in France. This USDA research facility is located in France because Mediterranean countries like France have dealt with the Olive Fruit Fly for decades, while California has only been exposed since the late 1990s. This is not uncommon; the USDA has several international research facilities throughout the world, including Australia, China and Argentina."


Sounds like it has a lot to do with the public good, but I could be wrong...

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,15:11   

I imagine quite a bit of zebra mussel research might be done out of the country, too. Studying an invasive species where it was originally is going to be the most effective way to find bioremediation information, for example.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,15:15   

Have I mentioned that we just began breeding melanogasters in my Bio 111 lab?

Red eye/white eye inheritance experiment.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,15:21   

Quote
Bishop Thomas Muthee, the Kenyan preacher shown on the YouTube video anointing her as she ran for governor, is celebrated internationally as an effective spiritual warrior who led a prayer movement that drove a witch out of his town in Kenya. The removal of the witch, Bishop Muthee says, resulted in a drop in crime, alcoholism and traffic accidents.

Religious leaders in Alaska, including Mr. Donelson, declined interviews, with several saying they had been told by the McCain-Palin campaign not to talk to members of the news media.

Russell P. Spittler, provost emeritus at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif., and an eminent scholar of Pentecostalism, said, “Most Christians would accept the view that there are forces and powers in the world that oppose Christian virtues.” But, Mr. Spittler added, “Spiritual warfare makes a religion of identifying demons by names and ZIP codes.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2008....ted=all

Definitely the kind of intellectual I want setting the nation's science policy.

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,16:00   

I listened to her speech again and I concede, there is no way to put a positive spin on it.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dhogaza



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,16:56   

Quote
The Olive Fruit Fly has infested thousands of California olive groves...


Research that helps blue states does not promote the public good.

I'm sure she'd have no problem with an earmark for agency research into resource issues that affect red states like Alaska.  Such as research into the mating habits of crabs by the state fisheries people that she asked Senator Stevens to help fund in her role as Governor.

I'm sure that Heddle is aware that applied research at agencies such like the USF&W, USDA, USFS comes directly from their research budgets, which are approved by Congress, not through grant applications.  So nothing has been "bypassed" in the process.

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,20:28   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Oct. 25 2008,13:15)
Have I mentioned that we just began breeding melanogasters in my Bio 111 lab?

Red eye/white eye inheritance experiment.

Oooh!  Ooooh!

I know that one! I know what's gonna happen!!

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,20:36   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,14:00)
I listened to her speech again and I concede, there is no way to put a positive spin on it.

Agreed. And it is rather disturbing that, coming after an administration that fought science as much as it could, the McCain/Palin team keeps trotting out science projects as examples of  silly and egregious spending. First grizzly bears, then the planetarium projector, and now they traipse in where my bread is buttered - fruit fly research.

There are certainly arguments to be made against the earmark process, but the examples they toss out don't have anything to do with those arguments. There is nothing there as sophisticated as Heddle's peer review argument for the funding of science. Instead they speak of an "overhead projector," " a paternity test for grizzly bears," and generic "fruit fly research in Paris, France." It's meant simply to mock. It's a direct appeal to people who think scientists are pointy-headed elitists living off the public dole. Unpatriotic, pointy-headed elitists.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,22:12   

Quote (bfish @ Oct. 25 2008,21:28)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Oct. 25 2008,13:15)
Have I mentioned that we just began breeding melanogasters in my Bio 111 lab?

Red eye/white eye inheritance experiment.

Oooh!  Ooooh!

I know that one! I know what's gonna happen!!

hush yourself. I'm not even looking it up on the internet.  But I'm guessing it's not what you'd think at first glance.

Very cool experiment, though. Sure beats the hell out of the raw chicken liver and hydrogen peroxide experiment.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,02:26   

"Life As We Know It Will End If Obama is Elected."

Edited by stevestory on Oct. 26 2008,03:27

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,04:57   

Given the fault-lines now widening between the factions of the GOP, it seems appropriate to bestow a few names.

In honour of Ray Comfort's worthless invaluable research into botanical origins, I propose that the Palin faction henceforth be called the Banana Republicans.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
KCdgw



Posts: 376
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,07:11   

A couple of things. First of all, the fruit flies in question are not in the genus Drosophila, but in the genus Bactrocera.  Nevertheless, they are a serious pest, threatening the growing olive industry in California. Secondly, I find it weird that a Republican candidate should proclaim research on pests threatening business  as not being in the public good.

Edited by KCdgw on Oct. 26 2008,07:12

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Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,09:26   

heddle perhaps your best redemptive quality is that you admit when you are wrong.  

now i don't understand why you insisted that you were 'playing fair'.  but it doesn't matter.  some people get mad when you talk shit about Batman too.  

i am wondering when you might grasp the implications of the fruit fly, the overhead projector, the bear DNA, the equivocation around YEC, etc etc etc.  I can see looking at this debacle and saying "Jesus, those bastards are way more fucked up than these guys, although they are all a few stiffs short of a morgue" but I don't understand how you can take your position which is essentially "These guys are great and way better than those other guys".  Which is what you have done and it is mysterious.

you just want to be in a club?

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,10:07   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,16:00)
I listened to her speech again and I concede, there is no way to put a positive spin on it.

Can you put a positive spin on your pathological liar Cranky McBush's repeated babbling about $3M to "study bear DNA in Montana"?

Was that even an earmark, Heddle?

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,10:13   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,22:00)
I listened to her speech again and I concede, there is no way to put a positive spin on it.

The world would be a better place if words like these were said more often.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,11:09   

Article on last-ditch repudiation of Pres. Bush

Quote

In an interview Thursday with The Washington Times, McCain spoke of Bush in tones bordering on contempt, ticking off a litany of what he said were the president’s failures.

“Spending, the conduct of the war in Iraq for years, growth in the size of government — larger than any time since the Great Society, laying a $10 trillion debt on future generations of America — owing $500 billion to China, obviously, failure to both enforce and modernize the [financial] regulatory agencies that were designed for the 1930s and certainly not for the 21st century, failure to address the issue of climate change seriously,” McCain told the newspaper.

“We just let things get completely out of hand,” he said of the past eight years of Republican rule.


I think McCain voted on various of these issues. Anybody got the numbers on which way he voted on each that had a vote?

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,11:56   

Philip Berg's kook lawsuit w/r/t Barack Obama's birth certificate has been thrown out. The wingnuts all responded that the judge, R. Barclay Surrick, must be a reasonable fellow and so much for that then. Just kidding!

http://www.therobingroom.com/Judge.aspx?ID=698

Quote
Comment #: 7103
Rating:1.0
Comments:
Sad Sad Sad you are a sad little man. Your judgement in the Berg Case has really Let the true America down. May another line of work is in your future.

Send e-mail to this poster 10/26/2008 11:19:55 AM


Quote
Comment #: 7099
Rating:1.0
Comments:
In researching R. Barclay Surrick, I find that he was appointed by Bill Clinton. So, what can you expect from Surrick, but for him to be a leftist leaning liberal. He should be removed from the position. For his decision is in violation of the US Constitution as to the qualifications to be elected to the office of President of the United States.


Quote
Comment #: 7098
Rating:1.0
Comments:
You will be JUDGED by GOD for your clear and evident lack of doing your job.


Quote
Comment #: 7088
Rating:1.0
Comments:
You are despicable. You need to grow some balls and stand up for this country. You should be removed from your throne and kicked in the balls. Just remember that you helped lead this country into a constitutional crisis and are supporting a terrorist. You make me sick. You make Texas citizens sick. You make the American people sick. I hope you burn in hell with Hitler and get pineapples shoved up your ass.
God help us all.
God bless America.


Quote
Comment #: 7041
Rating:1.0
Comments:
Judge Surrick should be removed from the bench and possibly charged with treason. Judges who are so obviously anti-constitution and anti-American should be investigated immediately. Let us start with THIS criminal!


Quote
Comment #: 7005
Rating:1.0
Comments:
You Sir belong behind bars instead of a bench, Thank you for aiding and abetting a foreigner to run for the office of President. It is Judicial fecal matter like yourself that help perpetuate the rape of America.


etc etc etc.

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,12:21   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 26 2008,17:56)
Philip Berg's kook lawsuit w/r/t Barack Obama's birth certificate has been thrown out. The wingnuts all responded that the judge, R. Barclay Surrick, must be a reasonable fellow and so much for that then. Just kidding!

http://www.therobingroom.com/Judge.aspx?ID=698

Does election season always bring out the internet tough guys?

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,14:18   

Nothing could sum up the intellectual rigour and high-toned rhetoric of the presidential contest better than this.

Alas, not my own work, but you may all pretend that it is.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,15:46   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,22:00)
I listened to her speech again and I concede, there is no way to put a positive spin on it.

Then, as if it matters, my former comment is retracted utterly.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,15:49   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 25 2008,17:30)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 25 2008,17:27)
Hmmmmm perhaps I shouldn't post after 6 pints of Guinness and a loss to Cardiff Blues by the Tigers. It seems to make me mean.

Pfffff it matters not.

Louis

Louis a mean drunk? I would never have guessed it!

Noooooo, I'm a lovely drunk, I'm mean sober! ;-)

And really mean when disappointed by a poor performance from my rugby team of choice. Seems like I'm vulnerable to the identity politics thing too. Gee, I might have even mentioned it!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,15:59   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Oct. 26 2008,16:13)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,22:00)
I listened to her speech again and I concede, there is no way to put a positive spin on it.

The world would be a better place if words like these were said more often.

The three most beautiful (and rarely heard) words in the English language:

"I was wrong."*

Louis

*With apologies to Captain Kirk who thought that they were "Please help me" and ageing hippies who think they are "I love you". Frankly a lot less "I love you", a small bit less "Please help me" and a lot more "I was wrong" and there would be less people, less whiny bastards and a much better world. Sunday's rugby was clearly just as bad as Saturday's! ;-)

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Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,18:26   

(via yglesias)

Quote
“Neville Chamberlain also had a fine temperament and a good intellect.” --Bill Kristol, smearing Obama


If I had a billion dollars, well, I wouldn't buy the NYT because newspapers are going down the tubes. But if I had a billion dollars and had already bought everything else I could possibly want, I would buy the NYT just to fire first Kristol, then the moron who hired him, then, presuming one exists, the moron who hired that moron.

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,18:36   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 26 2008,19:26)
(via yglesias)

Quote
“Neville Chamberlain also had a fine temperament and a good intellect.” --Bill Kristol, smearing Obama


If I had a billion dollars, well, I wouldn't buy the NYT because newspapers are going down the tubes. But if I had a billion dollars and had already bought everything else I could possibly want, I would buy the NYT just to fire first Kristol, then the moron who hired him, then, presuming one exists, the moron who hired that moron.

A moron daisy chain indeed.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,18:41   

"See, under a big government, more tax agenda, what you thought was yours would really start belonging to somebody else, to everybody else," Palin said. "If you thought your income, your property, your inventory, your investments were, were yours, they would really collectively belong to everybody."

Sarah Palin, yesterday. Can we pleeeeeeaaaasssseeee get done with the next 9 days already?

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,18:44   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 26 2008,19:41)
"See, under a big government, more tax agenda, what you thought was yours would really start belonging to somebody else, to everybody else," Palin said. "If you thought your income, your property, your inventory, your investments were, were yours, they would really collectively belong to everybody."

Sarah Palin, yesterday. Can we pleeeeeeaaaasssseeee get done with the next 9 days already?

I voted Friday.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2008,20:53   

Principled conservatives (George Will, Jeffrey Hart, Steve Bainbridge, Kathleen Parker, Doug Kmeic, etc) are in a dilemma about the term, now that conservative has come to mean Hannity, Kristol, (Andy) McCarthy, Limbaugh, Bachmann, Palin, Dobson, etc.

Andrew Sullivan:
Quote
I face the dilemma every time I go to a college campus and speak about conservatism. When you use the c-word among the next generation, they no longer associate it with small government, individual freedom, humble faith, balanced budgets, respect for tradition or a strong but prudent foreign policy. They think of religious fanaticism, big spending, massive debt, and social intolerance.
I would add science denial and belligerent foreign policy. Anyway, be interesting to see how the GOP evolves, and whether the principled conservatives somehow manage to stay and regain some influence.

   
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,06:21   

I always laugh at this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7FopDTIrZSU

As relevant today as it was forty odd years ago. Bob is a very funny man (not so well known in the UK unfortunately). I wonder what his thoughts are on the current presidential race ?

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,10:00   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,16:00)
I listened to her speech again and I concede, there is no way to put a positive spin on it.

Thank you Mr. Heddle.... but what's next?

Do you now turn your back on NASCAR and root for Forumula 1?

Give up the NFL for the Rugby Union?

Enquiring Minds Want To Know!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,10:03   

Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 27 2008,10:00)
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,16:00)
I listened to her speech again and I concede, there is no way to put a positive spin on it.

Thank you Mr. Heddle.... but what's next?

Do you now turn your back on NASCAR and root for Forumula 1?

Give up the NFL for the Rugby Union?

Enquiring Minds Want To Know!

Dave is married and has a child, so we know he is straight.  So, I don't really see that happening.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,10:25   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 27 2008,18:03)
Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 27 2008,10:00)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 25 2008,16:00)
I listened to her speech again and I concede, there is no way to put a positive spin on it.

Thank you Mr. Heddle.... but what's next?

Do you now turn your back on NASCAR and root for Forumula 1?

Give up the NFL for the Rugby Union?

Enquiring Minds Want To Know!

Dave is married and has a child, so we know he is straight.  So, I don't really see that happening.

OK HOMO I KNOW WHAT TEAM YOURE ON NOW.

HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE WORLD CHAMPIONS!

Quote
The All Blacks have a positive win record against every nation they have played and, with the exception of South Africa, have a winning margin of over 65% for every other country. They have won 323 of the 434 matches played, a win percentage of 74.6% (see table). By this measure, the All Blacks are the most successful international rugby union team in history (and consistently so) and one of the most successful teams in world sport. When World Rankings were introduced by the IRB in October 2003, the All Blacks were ranked second. In November 2003 they briefly occupied first and then third before moving back into second by December that year. Between June 2004 and October 2007, the All Blacks were ranked number one in the world. The occupied second place behind South Africa before defeating them in July 2008, and regaining the number one ranking, before losing it the following week with a loss to South Afrca, only to regain it by defeating both Australia and South Africa in August 2008.[84] The All Blacks are also well known, and feared, by many national teams for the potentially punishing winning margins that the All Blacks are capable of, and many national teams' 'worst defeat' moniker was often a match against the All Blacks. The national teams of France, Ireland, Argentina, Fiji, Tonga, Japan, and Portugal hold this unfortunate distinction at the hands of New Zealand.

Their Test match record against all nations (listed in order of total matches), updated to 17 August 2008, is as follows:[85]

Opponent   Played   Won   Lost   Drawn    % Won  
Australia 131 88 39 5 66.4%
South Africa 76 42 30 3 56.0%
France 46 34 11 1 73.9%
British & Irish Lions 34 26 6 2 76.5%
England 31 24 6 1 77.4%
Scotland 26 24 0 2 92.3%
Wales 23 20 3 0 87%
Ireland 21 20 0 1 95.2%
Argentina 13 12 0 1 92.3%
Italy 9 9 0 0 100%
Samoa 5 5 0 0 100%
Fiji 4 4 0 0 100%
Canada 4 4 0 0 100%
Tonga 3 3 0 0 100%
Anglo-Welsh 3 2 0 1 66.7%
World XV 3 2 1 0 66.7%
Romania 2 2 0 0 100%
USA 2 2 0 0 100%
Great Britain 1 1 0 0 100%
Japan 1 1 0 0 100%
Pacific Islanders 1 1 0 0 100%
Portugal 1 1 0 0 100%
Total 439 326 96 17 74.25%





NOW I KNOW WHY U LIKE DONKEYS.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,10:41   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 26 2008,00:26)
"Life As We Know It Will End If Obama is Elected."

Yup. And I assume that's why he's ahead in the polls.

I was away at a conference. Were there any times when I was supposed to insult Louis that I missed?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,10:44   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 26 2008,13:59)
 
The three most beautiful (and rarely heard) words in the English language:

"I was wrong."*

Bollocks. It gets 9.6 million Google hits.

And I would note that the phrases "Louis isn't obese" and "Louis's mom isn't slutty" get ZERO hits. QED, dude. :angry:

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,10:53   

McCain is perilously close to losing in his home state of Arizona, according to the latest poll there.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,11:41   

I voted early.

But both sides are still stuffing my mailbox with parts of dead trees. They can stop doing that any time now; it won't change my votes. ;)

Henry

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,12:26   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 27 2008,18:41)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 26 2008,00:26)
"Life As We Know It Will End If Obama is Elected."

Yup. And I assume that's why he's ahead in the polls.

I was away at a conference. Were there any times when I was supposed to insult Louis that I missed?

Yes

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,13:28   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 27 2008,16:44)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 26 2008,13:59)
 
The three most beautiful (and rarely heard) words in the English language:

"I was wrong."*

Bollocks. It gets 9.6 million Google hits.

And I would note that the phrases "Louis isn't obese" and "Louis's mom isn't slutty" get ZERO hits. QED, dude. :angry:

Very good points, well made. However, such things are a double edged sword, after all the phrase "Arden is a kiddy-fiddling, bottom-diddling, quasi Jabba the Hutt replica (just less attractive) who smells of wee" gets no hits also.

Something to think about.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,13:35   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 27 2008,21:28)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 27 2008,16:44)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 26 2008,13:59)
 
The three most beautiful (and rarely heard) words in the English language:

"I was wrong."*

Bollocks. It gets 9.6 million Google hits.

And I would note that the phrases "Louis isn't obese" and "Louis's mom isn't slutty" get ZERO hits. QED, dude. :angry:

Very good points, well made. However, such things are a double edged sword, after all the phrase "Arden is a kiddy-fiddling, bottom-diddling, quasi Jabba the Hutt replica (just less attractive) who smells of wee" gets no hits also.

Something to think about.

Louis

HOMO!

YOUR JUST JEALOUS

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,13:50   

Quote
"You know, the other night in the debate with Senator Obama, I said his eloquence is admirable, but pay attention to his words," McCain said. "We talk about offshore drilling and he said he would quote, consider, offshore drilling. We talked about nuclear power, [He said] well it has to be safe, environment, blah, blah, blah."

Now, the Republican activists on hand for the speech found "blah, blah, blah" to be absolutely hilarious. I haven't the foggiest idea why.



Anti-intellectualism is why. Real men don't worry about no environment or no nucular waste. That stuff's for pointy headed elitist types sippin their lattes with their little frou-frou pinkie fingers pointin' out.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,13:53   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 27 2008,11:28)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 27 2008,16:44)
 
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 26 2008,13:59)
 
The three most beautiful (and rarely heard) words in the English language:

"I was wrong."*

Bollocks. It gets 9.6 million Google hits.

And I would note that the phrases "Louis isn't obese" and "Louis's mom isn't slutty" get ZERO hits. QED, dude. :angry:

Very good points, well made. However, such things are a double edged sword, after all the phrase "Arden is a kiddy-fiddling, bottom-diddling, quasi Jabba the Hutt replica (just less attractive) who smells of wee" gets no hits also.

Something to think about.

Louis

HA HA LOUIS IS BEING ALL NEEDY AGAIN:



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,14:07   

Quote
Jim Nuzzo, a White House aide to the first President Bush, dismissed Mrs Palin’s critics as “cocktail party conservatives” who “give aid and comfort to the enemy”. He told The Sunday Telegraph: “There’s going to be a bloodbath. A lot of people are going to be excommunicated. David Brooks and David Frum and Peggy Noonan are dead people in the Republican Party. The litmus test will be: where did you stand on Palin?”


I'm skeptical, but I hope so! Drive them intamalectual varmints out of town! If ya ain't fur us, yer again' us! (shoots pistols) yee-haw!

linky

   
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,14:08   

....so you won't b helping Palin?

poor girl....she really needs you.


......ooooh Louis is a girl!!!

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,14:25   

Quote
I still have this dream, I merely mention it because I do not have the luxury of a five year timeline anymore. I am not a reactionary person by nature, but trust me when I say the first 100 days of a Barack Obama presidency will bring holy hell upon those who adhere to a classical liberal philosophy. This man is a radical of the first stripe, and he has left no stone unturned in his quest. He has not committed voter fraud in the good old fashioned way. He has a vast network of ACORN operatives stealing votes through fraudulent means by the hundreds of thousands. This man has not committed campaign finance fraud in the good old fashioned way, squirrelling away Chinese monies like Bill Clinton. This cocksucker actually disabled his credit card verification system to allow tens of millions of illegal dollars to flow into his coffers from any number of enemies of the state. The droid army of the legacy press is aware of this, of course, but who wants to be the whistleblower once this man assumes power? No one. No fucking body. Wouldn't be prudent at this fucking juncture, as 41 might say.

Did I mention this man hates me? You and me? Yes he does. Why? Because he can. Yes He Can. Beneath that cool persona is a megalomaniac. Cool? Like Stalin after a purge, emotionally and sexually spent. Like Saddam after a torture session, dozing in his chair with someone's genitals curled in his fist. Like Pol Pot after a petit mal seizure, mumbling a litany of the dead. Cool that way.


Apparently Obama is like Stalin, Saddam, and Pol Pot.

Who knew?

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,14:38   

Quote
27 Oct 2008 09:20 am
The Looming Limbaugh Syndrome

Ross calls Rush Limbaugh's latest diatribe against moderate Republicans "required reading for anyone seeking to understand one of the most powerful conservative narratives emerging around the looming GOP debacle." It is indeed:
Quote
   When I saw the Weld thing today I smiled and I fired off a note to all my buddies and I said, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! How can this be? How can this be?  This is the kind of guy that our candidate was supposed to be attracting, and we were supposed to be getting all these moderates from the Democrat Party," and we will, by the way. We're going to get some rank and file, average American Democrats that are going to vote for McCain.  But these hoity-toity bourgeoisie...

   Well, they're not the bourgeoisie, but... Well, they are in a sense. They're following their own self-interests, so I say fine. They have just admitted that Republican Party "big tent" philosophy didn't work. It was their philosophy; it was their idea. These are the people, once they steered the party to where it is, they are the ones that abandoned it.
It really does feel like the Tories in 1997. They got a thumping of a lifetime and yet they convinced themselves that they lost because they hadn't been hardline enough. And the actual remaining members of parliament, all in super-safe seats, marinated in their own juices and became more insular and blinkered before they lost again. And again. It's over a decade later and only now has the Tory party adjusted back to reality. Mercifully, American parties in the states and legislatures and Congress have more lee-way for finding and grooming new talent than British parliamentary parties. On the other hand, the British Tories never went so far off the cliff as to nominate a Palin.


linky

   
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,14:58   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 27 2008,22:38)
Quote
27 Oct 2008 09:20 am
The Looming Limbaugh Syndrome

Ross calls Rush Limbaugh's latest diatribe against moderate Republicans "required reading for anyone seeking to understand one of the most powerful conservative narratives emerging around the looming GOP debacle." It is indeed:
Quote
   When I saw the Weld thing today I smiled and I fired off a note to all my buddies and I said, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! How can this be? How can this be?  This is the kind of guy that our candidate was supposed to be attracting, and we were supposed to be getting all these moderates from the Democrat Party," and we will, by the way. We're going to get some rank and file, average American Democrats that are going to vote for McCain.  But these hoity-toity bourgeoisie...

   Well, they're not the bourgeoisie, but... Well, they are in a sense. They're following their own self-interests, so I say fine. They have just admitted that Republican Party "big tent" philosophy didn't work. It was their philosophy; it was their idea. These are the people, once they steered the party to where it is, they are the ones that abandoned it.
It really does feel like the Tories in 1997. They got a thumping of a lifetime and yet they convinced themselves that they lost because they hadn't been hardline enough. And the actual remaining members of parliament, all in super-safe seats, marinated in their own juices and became more insular and blinkered before they lost again. And again. It's over a decade later and only now has the Tory party adjusted back to reality. Mercifully, American parties in the states and legislatures and Congress have more lee-way for finding and grooming new talent than British parliamentary parties. On the other hand, the British Tories never went so far off the cliff as to nominate a Palin.


linky

yeeeh hah


<snicker>

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,15:02   

Quote (bfish @ Oct. 25 2008,20:28)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Oct. 25 2008,13:15)
Have I mentioned that we just began breeding melanogasters in my Bio 111 lab?

Red eye/white eye inheritance experiment.

Oooh!  Ooooh!

I know that one! I know what's gonna happen!!

Palin will say that they are still fruit flies?

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,15:03   

subtract the conspir-o-tardery and that all sounds purty good to me.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2561
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,15:50   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 27 2008,14:38)
Quote
27 Oct 2008 09:20 am
The Looming Limbaugh Syndrome

Ross calls Rush Limbaugh's latest diatribe against moderate Republicans "required reading for anyone seeking to understand one of the most powerful conservative narratives emerging around the looming GOP debacle." It is indeed:
Quote
   When I saw the Weld thing today I smiled and I fired off a note to all my buddies and I said, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! How can this be? How can this be?  This is the kind of guy that our candidate was supposed to be attracting, and we were supposed to be getting all these moderates from the Democrat Party," and we will, by the way. We're going to get some rank and file, average American Democrats that are going to vote for McCain.  But these hoity-toity bourgeoisie...

   Well, they're not the bourgeoisie, but... Well, they are in a sense. They're following their own self-interests, so I say fine. They have just admitted that Republican Party "big tent" philosophy didn't work. It was their philosophy; it was their idea. These are the people, once they steered the party to where it is, they are the ones that abandoned it.
It really does feel like the Tories in 1997. They got a thumping of a lifetime and yet they convinced themselves that they lost because they hadn't been hardline enough. And the actual remaining members of parliament, all in super-safe seats, marinated in their own juices and became more insular and blinkered before they lost again. And again. It's over a decade later and only now has the Tory party adjusted back to reality. Mercifully, American parties in the states and legislatures and Congress have more lee-way for finding and grooming new talent than British parliamentary parties. On the other hand, the British Tories never went so far off the cliff as to nominate a Palin.


linky

No, they elected Michael Howard as their leader instead.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,16:12   

yes, yes!

the spines are just right and the integument is a perfect shade of pink!  I can hardly wait until it receives the treatment and moves on its own accord!!!!!  BWAHAHAHAHAHA

wait what were you thinking?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,16:22   

Whoops, looks like Hitch doesn't dig Palin:

Quote
This is what the Republican Party has done to us this year: It has placed within reach of the Oval Office a woman who is a religious fanatic and a proud, boastful ignoramus. Those who despise science and learning are not anti-elitist. They are morally and intellectually slothful people who are secretly envious of the educated and the cultured. And those who prate of spiritual warfare and demons are not just "people of faith" but theocratic bullies. On Nov. 4, anyone who cares for the Constitution has a clear duty to repudiate this wickedness and stupidity.


--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,16:32   

Sarah Palin, class act.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,17:03   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Oct. 27 2008,13:02)
 
Quote (bfish @ Oct. 25 2008,20:28)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Oct. 25 2008,13:15)
Have I mentioned that we just began breeding melanogasters in my Bio 111 lab?

Red eye/white eye inheritance experiment.

Oooh!  Ooooh!

I know that one! I know what's gonna happen!!

Palin will say that they are still fruit flies?

Hee, hee, hee.
:D

[edited to try to add smiley-face thingy]

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 533
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,17:04   

Note the symbolism in this photo:



(from linky)

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,17:46   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Oct. 27 2008,17:04)
Note the symbolism in this photo:



(from linky)

Just In Time For Halloween - it's the creepy Old Guy!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,18:07   

Quote
* Scary beyond words: "Federal agents have broken up a plot to assassinate Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama and shoot or decapitate 102 black people in a Tennessee murder spree, the ATF said Monday. In court records unsealed Monday, federal agents said they disrupted plans to rob a gun store and target a predominantly African-American high school by two neo-Nazi skinheads.... Jim Cavanaugh, special agent in charge of the Nashville field office for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said the two men planned to shoot 88 black people and decapitate another 14. The numbers 88 and 14 are symbolic in the white supremacist community."


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archive....397.php

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,18:14   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 27 2008,19:07)
Quote
* Scary beyond words: "Federal agents have broken up a plot to assassinate Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama and shoot or decapitate 102 black people in a Tennessee murder spree, the ATF said Monday. In court records unsealed Monday, federal agents said they disrupted plans to rob a gun store and target a predominantly African-American high school by two neo-Nazi skinheads.... Jim Cavanaugh, special agent in charge of the Nashville field office for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said the two men planned to shoot 88 black people and decapitate another 14. The numbers 88 and 14 are symbolic in the white supremacist community."


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archive....397.php

As long as they aren't Muslim terrorists.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,18:50   

Quote
Sarah Palin's War on Science

The GOP ticket's appalling contempt for knowledge and learning.

By Christopher Hitchens


http://slate.com/id/2203120

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,19:18   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 27 2008,16:50)
 
Quote
Sarah Palin's War on Science

The GOP ticket's appalling contempt for knowledge and learning.

By Christopher Hitchens


http://slate.com/id/2203120

HA HA I BEAT YOU AGAIN STERNBERGER.
:angry:

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,22:28   

...hereoisreal has to be coincidence-channeling somehow...

something amazing just happened to me...I was looking through Time's pictures of the week and suddenly up popped the exact image I've had in my head ever since Palin bragged about facing Putin if he ever reared his head...



ETA: lolspeak - my first ever attempt

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,22:31   

and i looked deeply into this chick's eyes and saw K... F... C...

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 28 2008,09:29   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 27 2008,22:31)
and i looked deeply into this chick's eyes and saw K... F... C...

Sorry dude, Popeye's is the bomb.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 28 2008,13:00   

From Ken Ham today:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article....-threat


Quote
Yes, he actually said it: creationism “may pose the greatest threat to the future of our children, your health, and the nation’s economy.”

This remarkable quote comes from Arthur Caplan, chairman of the medical ethics department at the University of Pennsylvania and frequent TV commentator, writing in the major newspaper The Philadelphia Inquirer. What prompted this venomous attack? Vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin apparently believes in creation and is on record as having said that students should be allowed to “debate both sides” of the evolution question.


Quote
It’s especially clear in this latest round of attacks that many evolutionists are not basing their arguments on scientific evidence. They know creationists have the answers readily available

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 28 2008,23:09   

The state-by-state polls have the experts giving

Obama 374
McCain 174

or thereabouts.

If you can't make accurate predictions you don't understand something, and I think I have some understanding, so I'm going to make a prediction about the electoral college.

What's my methodology? Well, I'm basically agreeing with Intrade and fivethirtyeight.com, but I've lived in NC and FL for 30 years, and seen powerful racism there, racism people would never admit to a pollster. So while the current projections give those states to Obama, and maybe VA and AL as well, I'm going to assume racism will win out in at least a few southern states. But I don't know which ones. So I'm splitting the dif and arbitrarily giving FL and NC to McCain.

prediction:
Obama 322
McCain 216

We'll see, in a week, whether I have any idea what I'm talking about.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 28 2008,23:41   

I'm going to predict that Atlantis will rise from the depths and we will enter the golden age predicted by all the prophets and foretold in the Bible Code (before they fucked up the syntax and eliminated the second stanza when they botched the canon).

Of course since these events will be undetectable without being right with the Lord the unrighteous will perceive these events as one of the two sides winning, it doesn't matter which, since in reality we will be governed by benevolent reptilian overlords who are here to maximize the amount of television waves emanated from the planet.

and now i realize i just saw this simpson's episode.  like half an hour ago.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,03:34   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 29 2008,05:41)
I'm going to predict that Atlantis will rise from the depths and we will enter the golden age predicted by all the prophets and foretold in the Bible Code (before they fucked up the syntax and eliminated the second stanza when they botched the canon).

Of course since these events will be undetectable without being right with the Lord the unrighteous will perceive these events as one of the two sides winning, it doesn't matter which, since in reality we will be governed by benevolent reptilian overlords who are here to maximize the amount of television waves emanated from the planet.

and now i realize i just saw this simpson's episode.  like half an hour ago.

Pssstt 'Ras', you missed the "inevitable overthrow of THEM*" and the "righteous end to THEIR odious tyranny".

Louis

*Where "THEM" is defined as anyone not like "US**".

** "US" is defined as people who are opposed to "THEM".

--------------
Bye.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,07:06   

Louis did you smell that too?  I thought there was a whiff of I.P. in steve's prediction.

anyway the benevolent reptilian overlords will not be overthrown, our perception of reality is just an unrelated noumena narrative that does not converge nor supervene upon the reality controlled by the benevolent reptilian overlords.  There are no degrees of freedom for observing this frame, and it remains true no matter what evidence one perceives to be for or against it.  Do not be surprised when the Sun Sphere is full of wigs, it is just as easily that as Jesse Helms.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,09:50   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 29 2008,03:34)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 29 2008,05:41)
I'm going to predict that Atlantis will rise from the depths and we will enter the golden age predicted by all the prophets and foretold in the Bible Code (before they fucked up the syntax and eliminated the second stanza when they botched the canon).

Of course since these events will be undetectable without being right with the Lord the unrighteous will perceive these events as one of the two sides winning, it doesn't matter which, since in reality we will be governed by benevolent reptilian overlords who are here to maximize the amount of television waves emanated from the planet.

and now i realize i just saw this simpson's episode.  like half an hour ago.

Pssstt 'Ras', you missed the "inevitable overthrow of THEM*" and the "righteous end to THEIR odious tyranny".

Louis

*Where "THEM" is defined as anyone not like "US**".

** "US" is defined as people who are opposed to "THEM".

No, no, no...We defeated Them long ago when they crawled out of their ant-hills.  I saw the documentary.

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,09:59   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 29 2008,15:06)
Louis did you smell that too?  I thought there was a whiff of I.P. in steve's prediction.

anyway the benevolent reptilian overlords will not be overthrown, our perception of reality is just an unrelated noumena narrative that does not converge nor supervene upon the reality controlled by the benevolent reptilian overlords.  There are no degrees of freedom for observing this frame, and it remains true no matter what evidence one perceives to be for or against it.  Do not be surprised when the Sun Sphere is full of wigs, it is just as easily that as Jesse Helms.

PPPFFFFFFTTT!

....VERY WELL.... ABORTIONS FOR SOME, MINIATURE AMERICAN FLAGS OTHERS.....YAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH

I VOTED FOR KANG AND KODOS

p.s. Obama and McCain were merely exchanging long protien strings if you can think of a simpler way, I'd like to hear it.....

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,12:00   

Yesterday (on freeview) I was watching a programme about Obama. He also seems to be leaning on the religious vote. I think it was called "Jesus politics" or something like that. Can't find a link.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,12:14   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 29 2008,10:00)
Yesterday (on freeview) I was watching a programme about Obama. He also seems to be leaning on the religious vote. I think it was called "Jesus politics" or something like that. Can't find a link.

I think the turning point was the day that people who don't trust Blacks or who think Obama is a Muslim started deciding they'd vote for him anyway.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,12:29   

Excerpted from Salon. I just thought this was very funny (the first half at least), is all:

     
Quote
Veepzilla!
The GOP circular firing squad kept blasting away on Tuesday, over the question of who's to blame for the cavalcade of bad Sarah Palin news. Come on, you know you're paying attention. It's a grotesque pileup on the political highway, and it's impossible to look away.

To recap: Palin went "rogue," and blamed the Republican National Committee for buying her $150,000 in clothing. McCain advisors then unloaded on their veepzilla, calling her a disastrously underinformed "diva" -- anonymously, of course. Palin supporters shot back, blaming the McCain camp for its poor handling of the talented Alaska political phenom. A "top McCain advisor" retaliated by calling Palin a "whack job" in the Politico. The RNC, meanwhile, kind of unbelievably, publicly blamed the McCain campaign for the clothing scandal. Ouch.

If you think all that's super-petty high school stuff, well, it gets worse. (I feel like I'm back to recapping episodes of "America's Next Top Model," but I love it.) Palin-lover Fred Barnes, of Fox and the Weekly Standard, came out and, without apparent evidence, named Nicolle Wallace as the John McCain aide who personally put the $150,000 in clothing on her credit card. Wallace struck back, telling Ana Marie Cox: "There's obviously an organized campaign to lay blame for things at my feet and I'm not going to engage before the campaign ends. I have a very long relationship with Fox News and the notion that someone would call me a coward on the air and accuse me of putting $150,000 on my credit card without a single person calling and checking with me suggests that something is going on."

Barnes and his buddy Bill Kristol are now, of course, completely, like, pissed, and they're spreading the skeeziest rumors about Wallace in between classes, and insisting nobody sit at her lunch table after Nov. 4.

...

The fact is, both of the following observations are true:

A) Palin is a nasty and very skilled political opportunist who is giving as good as she's getting, smacking Barack Obama, Joe Biden and now McCain (his staff, anyway) with savage glee. and

B) She's being scapegoated in a personal way that seems sadly familiar for female candidates, in very sexist terms:  First "diva," then "whack job;" next she'll be Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction." Oops, sorry, that was Hillary Clinton.

-- Joan Walsh


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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,14:16   

Okay, Heddle, if this doesn't persuade you to vote for Obama, then you just can't be reasoned with. :angry:

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,14:28   

Along those lines, the usually dour Star-Trib entertained me today.  On the Op-Ed pages was a column by none other than Garrison Keillor.  He called the McCain/Palin ticket, "The Grumpy Old Man of the Desert and Whoopie the Ice Queen."

And here I always hated the Prarie Home Companion.  Silly me.   :)   :)   :)   :)    :)

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,14:54   

When I was learning how American politics was organized, there were four parties on the ballot. The Liberal Party always backed the Democratic candidate, and the Conservative Party always backed the Republican candidate.

The Liberal and Conservative parties were themselves inconsequential, but provided a good way for the main parties to hold at arms length the more rabid supporters they attracted.

Now it seems that the Reagan era transformation of the Republican Party into the Conservative Party is just about complete. I can only hope a new Republican Party emerges from the circular firing squad, one that realizes "Palin 2012" is code for disaster.

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,14:59   

From Arden's Salon excerpts:

Quote
(I feel like I'm back to recapping episodes of "America's Next Top Model," but I love it.)
The Presidential campaign is the best Reality Show on TV. Might win an emmy! It's got my vote.

Quote
Wallace struck back, telling Ana Marie Cox: "There's obviously an organized campaign to lay blame for things at my feet and I'm not going to engage before the campaign ends. I have a very long relationship with Fox News and the notion that someone would call me a coward on the air and accuse me of putting $150,000 on my credit card without a single person calling and checking with me suggests that something is going on."
This is fun. Is there a denial of the charge anywhere in there? Nope!

Quote
Palin is a nasty and very skilled political opportunist who is giving as good as she's getting, smacking Barack Obama, Joe Biden and now McCain (his staff, anyway) with savage glee.
John McCain was aboard the USS Forrestal when some of its on-deck ordnance caught fire, started to squib off, and tried to sink the boat. In fact it was his jet's fuel tank that the errant Zuni rocket went through to start the conflagaration. The fire was no fault of John's, but you would think he'd have a personal appreciation of the risks involved in handling pyrotechnics. Apparently not.

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,15:23   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Oct. 29 2008,15:54)
When I was learning how American politics was organized, there were four parties on the ballot. The Liberal Party always backed the Democratic candidate, and the Conservative Party always backed the Republican candidate.

The Liberal and Conservative parties were themselves inconsequential, but provided a good way for the main parties to hold at arms length the more rabid supporters they attracted.

Now it seems that the Reagan era transformation of the Republican Party into the Conservative Party is just about complete. I can only hope a new Republican Party emerges from the circular firing squad, one that realizes "Palin 2012" is code for disaster.

There's supposed to be a meeting of influential right wingers next thursday to determine how to make the GOP even more right wing. We'll see how that goes.

check this out:

Quote
You cannot be a Christian and vote for Obama
Posted: October 28, 2008
1:00 am Eastern

© 2008

To all those who name the name of Christ who plan to willfully disobey Him by voting for Obama, take warning. Not only is our nation in grave danger, according to the Word of God, so are you


Wingnutdaily

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,16:13   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 29 2008,13:23)
Quote (dvunkannon @ Oct. 29 2008,15:54)
When I was learning how American politics was organized, there were four parties on the ballot. The Liberal Party always backed the Democratic candidate, and the Conservative Party always backed the Republican candidate.

The Liberal and Conservative parties were themselves inconsequential, but provided a good way for the main parties to hold at arms length the more rabid supporters they attracted.

Now it seems that the Reagan era transformation of the Republican Party into the Conservative Party is just about complete. I can only hope a new Republican Party emerges from the circular firing squad, one that realizes "Palin 2012" is code for disaster.

There's supposed to be a meeting of influential right wingers next thursday to determine how to make the GOP even more right wing. We'll see how that goes.

check this out:

Quote
You cannot be a Christian and vote for Obama
Posted: October 28, 2008
1:00 am Eastern

© 2008

To all those who name the name of Christ who plan to willfully disobey Him by voting for Obama, take warning. Not only is our nation in grave danger, according to the Word of God, so are you


Wingnutdaily

Cool!  Just in case four (+) years of the Repubs whacking themselves about the head and shoulders with spiked bats isn't entertaining enough, there's also going to be a program of divine smitings of Obama voters.  Erasmus will be pleased.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,16:22   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 29 2008,14:13)
Cool!  Just in case four (+) years of the Repubs whacking themselves about the head and shoulders with spiked bats isn't entertaining enough, there's also going to be a program of divine smitings of Obama voters.

The worst part will be apologizing to Heddle and telling him he was right all along.  :(

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,16:41   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 29 2008,12:14)
   
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Oct. 29 2008,10:00)
Yesterday (on freeview) I was watching a programme about Obama. He also seems to be leaning on the religious vote. I think it was called "Jesus politics" or something like that. Can't find a link.

I think the turning point was the day that people who don't trust Blacks or who think Obama is a Muslim started deciding they'd vote for him anyway.
Found some.
Link:

http://www.channel4.com/more4/documentaries/doc-feature.jsp?id=1

http://www.jesuspoliticsthemovie.com/

Not the film, but sites explaining it (briefly). Very interesting but sometimes disturbing. Religious P'sOV being given as fact and nutters on both sides (the film rather than links).

It also reported a growth in religiosity in the USA since the 11th Sep attack.

One of the things it covered/mentioned was that the separation of church/state is being trashed in politics (by both sides).

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,19:25   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 29 2008,12:16)
Okay, Heddle, if this doesn't persuade you to vote for Obama, then you just can't be reasoned with. :angry:

Here's what'll convince Heddle to change his vote:

NASCAR Legend Junior Johnson Endorses Obama

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,21:40   

Dogdidit wrote above:

Quote
John McCain was aboard the USS Forrestal when some of its on-deck ordnance caught fire, started to squib off, and tried to sink the boat. In fact it was his jet's fuel tank that the errant Zuni rocket went through to start the conflagaration. The fire was no fault of John's, but you would think he'd have a personal appreciation of the risks involved in handling pyrotechnics. Apparently not.


When I was in boot camp, we were required to view the on-ship videos of this event for our "this is what happens if things really fuck up" training.  'Twas something one never forgets.  Especially since it showed at least 2 500 pound bombs going off, killing both the first and second teams of firefighters topside.  Ick, ick, ick.

The carrier got the nickname "Forest fire" very quickly.  Not that I think that that's funny.

Carriers were not the kind of ship I wanted to serve on, anyway.  There were all kinds of stories about guys getting blown off of the flight deck (they're like 7 stories high, ya know) and sucked into jet intakes (you don't come out in very big pieces).  Not my idea of a picnic.  Plus they're mighty big TARGETS.

No, I took the safe route.  Submarines.  ;)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,21:56   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 29 2008,16:13)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 29 2008,13:23)
Quote (dvunkannon @ Oct. 29 2008,15:54)
When I was learning how American politics was organized, there were four parties on the ballot. The Liberal Party always backed the Democratic candidate, and the Conservative Party always backed the Republican candidate.

The Liberal and Conservative parties were themselves inconsequential, but provided a good way for the main parties to hold at arms length the more rabid supporters they attracted.

Now it seems that the Reagan era transformation of the Republican Party into the Conservative Party is just about complete. I can only hope a new Republican Party emerges from the circular firing squad, one that realizes "Palin 2012" is code for disaster.

There's supposed to be a meeting of influential right wingers next thursday to determine how to make the GOP even more right wing. We'll see how that goes.

check this out:

 
Quote
You cannot be a Christian and vote for Obama
Posted: October 28, 2008
1:00 am Eastern

© 2008

To all those who name the name of Christ who plan to willfully disobey Him by voting for Obama, take warning. Not only is our nation in grave danger, according to the Word of God, so are you


Wingnutdaily

Cool!  Just in case four (+) years of the Repubs whacking themselves about the head and shoulders with spiked bats isn't entertaining enough, there's also going to be a program of divine smitings of Obama voters.  Erasmus will be pleased.

ahh yes I can see it now.  proto-prometheus arising from the smoking mound of the charred remains of the Tard and Anti-Tard assplosion.  a new beginning, founded upon the obliterated corpse of the failed system.  probably not though huh.

anything, anything to get that sort of gridlock.  what does have a brutha have to do to get some divine smiting and S&M spiked shoulderpad identity politics?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,22:06   

Somehow, somehow, this has got to have something to do with politics.

4 high school cheerleaders, one driving illegally, run off the road and kill themselves as well as the occupants of another car.  including a soon to be grandmaw and her unborn grandbaby.  

shit happens and it ain't cool.  But what does the yankee Fred Phelps Church do but threaten to picket the god damned funeral.  

Now, these fuckers don't know what in the hell they are getting themselves into if they poking around Scott Co thinking they are going to yell god hates fags a few times and go home.  I predict that at least one of these cunts finds a new home in the Big South Fork.  If there is any justice in the world.  there may not be.

Quote
Leaders of a church that's drawn national controversy for its protests at U.S. military funerals say they plan to picket Friday's services for two Scott County High School cheerleaders and sisters killed in a weekend crash.

Six people died in the Oct. 24 crash near Huntsville, Tenn., including a grandmother, an unborn baby and four cheerleaders on their way home from a friend's birthday party after a home football game.

Friends and family say they just want to say their goodbyes in peace.

"It's unbelievable," said Bill Hall, the school's principal, who'd just returned from the first of the girls' funerals Wednesday. "We hope they don't come. The sheriff (Anthony Lay) is aware of it, and we'll be taking precautionary measures."

The Westboro Baptist Church, based in Topeka, Kan., maintains such Web sites as godhatesamerica.com and became famous during the Iraq war for calling the deaths of U.S. troops a divine judgment on America for tolerating homosexuality. Members recently expanded their protests to include funerals of those killed in car wrecks, bridge collapses and various disasters.

Shirley Phelps-Roper, a member of the church and daughter of its founder, said all Americans - even the unborn - share in the nation's guilt.

"There was not one person involved in that trauma who was not disobedient to their God," she said. "They deserved that. Why shouldn't the unborn child be killed? You guys kill them every day."


ETA  "during the Iraq war"?  did i miss something?  is it over?  mission accomplished or something?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,22:16   

that press release doesn't say why the angry Phelps monkeys are protesting that funeral. Did the cheerleaders know a gay guy, or something?

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,22:19   

steve it's because of the sins of evil Tennessee.  god.  like, pay attention.

there is no reason.  they are a bunch of loudmouth dumb fuck yankee ass smokes.  and they are baptists too.  it's got jack shit to do with anything about anything.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,22:20   

It would be fun, if this was 2040 and I was retired, to put together a group of wealthy bored people who just followed the Phelps protesters around and drowned out all their protests by holding up God Hates Cheetos and Allah Despises  Cellists and playing Queen at like 120 dB.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,22:25   

Come to think of it, wealthy retiree Steve would just pay some migrant farm workers to do it. There can't be more that what, 20 Phelps monkeys? For a few hundred bucks you could surround them with dozens of people holding randomly-worded protest signs and yelling gibberish slogans.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,22:31   

I know this is off-topic, but this thread is headed for the dustbin of history about 5 days from now, so forgive my transgressions.

This is f*$%ing hilarious.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,22:41   

that link was so awesome i had to listen to the O Fortuna part of Carmina Burana, which is the only thing to listen to when you're feeling utterly superior to something.

Quote
nunc per ludum
dorsum nudum
fero tui sceleris.

Sors salutis!
et virtutis!
mi-chi nunc con-tra-ria!!!!!!!!!!!

   
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,22:42   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 29 2008,22:16)
that press release doesn't say why the angry Phelps monkeys are protesting that funeral. Did the cheerleaders know a gay guy, or something?

Nope.  The crash & ensuing fatalities got some publicity, and the Phuqued-Up Phred Phelps cult is always out to get more publicity.

In related news, Topeka KS - home of the Phelps' - passed an ordinance against discrimination based on sexual orientation back in 2005.  One of Kathy Martin's fans & contributors, Carolyn Simms of Republic, KS, blasted Topekans for passing that ordinance.

That same Carolyn Simms & one of her friends sent emails to 26 newspapers in Martin's district earlier this week alerting them to the fact that Martin's challenger for the state board of education seat is homosexual, apparently concerned that the challenger would press Teh Gay Agenda in public schools.  (The challenger, Christopher Renner, is uber-qualified, and has not made any attempt to hide his orientation.)

This is one of the few times I'm ashamed to be a Kansan. For what it's worth, Phelps was born/raised in Mississippi.  Don't know about his fangirl Carolyn Simms.

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,22:52   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 29 2008,20:19)
steve it's because of the sins of evil Tennessee.

I gotta admit, that's a pretty good reason.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,00:03   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 29 2008,22:25)
Come to think of it, wealthy retiree Steve would just pay some migrant farm workers to do it. There can't be more that what, 20 Phelps monkeys? For a few hundred bucks you could surround them with dozens of people holding randomly-worded protest signs and yelling gibberish slogans.

Nah - they might think they were speaking in tongues and really supporting them.

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,00:07   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 29 2008,22:16)
that press release doesn't say why the angry Phelps monkeys are protesting that funeral. Did the cheerleaders know a gay guy, or something?

They don't need a reason.  After they decided to transfer their property away from themselves (to save it from being sold to pay their court-ordered payments - not sure if that worked or if they are still delinquent), they have to be desperate for anything, and this might work to get them another five minutes of free hate speech on tv.

As for my last post, I'm sure that there are many non-active marines and others (including some bikers I know about) who would be happy to have a talk with the Phelps inbred clan.  I'm surprised nothing has happened yet.

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,00:17   

I could never abide violence against obnoxious people like the Phelps monkeys. It might delight me if someone went all Buffy Summers on them and then torched their car, but I'd have to condemn it. To do otherwise would be to resemble Davetard, who advocated violence against the Kitzmiller plaintiffs. Paying a herd of people to drown them out, though, doesn't violate the law or anyone's rights. Anywhere they have a right to yell God Hates Fags, we have the right to wear Freddy Mercury outfits and surround them with boom boxes playing Under Pressure, and, you know, ask if they wanted to go back to our hotel room, etc...wouldn't you love to see the looks on those faces.



I would even grow the stashe back. Sadly, shaved it off a few mos ago.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,00:31   

one of the good things about the election is we should know the results fairly quickly, assuming Obama wins. The polls in Ohio, Florida, Virginia, and Pennsylvania all close by 8 pm EST. If Obama has, say, Virginia, or Florida, and Pennsylvania, then McCain is toast.

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,05:03   

Quote (jeffox @ Oct. 29 2008,21:40)
No, I took the safe route.  Submarines.  ;)

So, what you are saying is spending months underwater in a long metal tube with a hundred sweaty men is your idea of a great career?  

That seems a bit weird, but your still more normal that Arden.  That is his idea of a great vacation.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,08:07   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 30 2008,01:31)
one of the good things about the election is we should know the results fairly quickly, assuming Obama wins. The polls in Ohio, Florida, Virginia, and Pennsylvania all close by 8 pm EST. If Obama has, say, Virginia, or Florida, and Pennsylvania, then McCain is toast.

I know PA polls and others have Obama up by quite a bit on McCain, but being a Pennsylvanian...I don't know.  I don't see it.  Perhaps it's pessimism, but I wouldn't count PA in Obama's column until you see it.  I think it will be a lot closer than polls are showing here.  Pennsyltucky is more accurate in describing the state than most would like to admit.  There's a robust mix of racism and anti-liberal that isn't seen much because people only ever focus on Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

The caveat to all of this is that I am often wrong, so perhaps it's a good sign I feel this way.

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,09:34   

23% of Texans still think Obama is a Muslim

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,09:47   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 30 2008,03:03)
 
Quote (jeffox @ Oct. 29 2008,21:40)
No, I took the safe route.  Submarines.  ;)

So, what you are saying is spending months underwater in a long metal tube with a hundred sweaty men is your idea of a great career?  

That seems a bit weird, but your still more normal that Arden.  That is his idea of a great vacation.

Ahem. About my 'vacations'? You know that last 'business trip' your wife took?

I'm sorry. I've said too much already.





("your still more normal that Arden"? Shit, did you go to the same correspondence college as Dave Scot?)

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,09:53   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Oct. 30 2008,06:07)
Perhaps it's pessimism, but I wouldn't count PA in Obama's column until you see it.  I think it will be a lot closer than polls are showing here.  Pennsyltucky is more accurate in describing the state than most would like to admit.  

Well, sure, but what percentage of the state is Pittsburgh & greater Philly combined?

Democrats often win statewide elections in California by getting nothing more than the SF Bay Area, LA county, and a few stray blue enclaves. The map looks real red, but that's 55-60% of the state population right there. Sure Orange County, Kern County & Modoc always go red, but it ain't enough.

 
Quote

The caveat to all of this is that I am often wrong, so perhaps it's a good sign I feel this way.


Well, before we get all gloomy, let's ask Dave Scot about who he thinks will get PA. If he says McCain, our worries are over.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,10:08   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 30 2008,09:47)
("your still more normal that Arden"? Shit, did you go to the same correspondence college as Dave Scot?)

Well, I have an engineering degree, which means my language skills are suspect to begin with. But, I also have an MBA, which means it doesn't matter because I can just go to any fastfood joint and find a linguistics major willing to work for the loose change in my pocket.

Run along now, Arden, and remember to hold the pickle.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,10:16   

Since Erasmus brought it up, just a quick Phelps update. The jury's $10 million damages award in the Snyder case was reduced to $5 million by the trial judge. That award is now on appeal to the federal Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. http://cjonline.com/stories/040408/loc_264906171.shtml

Oral argument is scheduled for December 2, 2008, in Richmond, Virginia. If you're in that area, you might want to check it out. Margie Phelps, who I'm pretty sure is Fred's daughter, will be arguing for the defendants. I'd love to see that, but the Fourth Circuit doesn't put their oral arguments online, like some courts do, and I'm up in Chicago.

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The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,10:25   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 30 2008,08:08)
Run along now, Arden, and remember to hold the pickle.

Your wife holds my pickle just fine.

Oh, I'm sorry, "you're wife". Clearer?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,10:26   

Both exellecent points, Arden.  And I don't mean to go all Eeyore...just perhaps a bit overcautious and skeptical of polls that show a 12-13 point lead over McCain.

As a point of interest to...well me

Pennsylvania population 2006

State Pop - 12.4 million
Philadelphia County - 1.4 million
Surrouding Counties ~ 2.3 million (most blue, some purple)
Allegheny County (Pittsburgh) - 1.2 million
Not sure of surrounding counties here - I think pretty even split

The breakdowns of race, sex, education, etc are intersting too.  Curious how other posters view their states.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,10:30   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 30 2008,11:25)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 30 2008,08:08)
Run along now, Arden, and remember to hold the pickle.

Your wife holds my pickle just fine.

Oh, I'm sorry, "you're wife". Clearer?

Sew your saying that you're gherkin is green, wrinkled, and shriveled?

(Was going to go the mini dill route but thought I'd try something different)

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,11:00   

Carlsonjok wrote:

Quote
So, what you are saying is spending months underwater in a long metal tube with a hundred sweaty men is your idea of a great career?  

That seems a bit weird, but your still more normal that Arden.  That is his idea of a great vacation.


Umm, we had pickles on the submarine.

:)   :)   :)   :)

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,11:08   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 30 2008,05:03)
So, what you are saying is spending months underwater in a long metal tube with a hundred sweaty men is your idea of a great career?  

That's seamen, dude.  Seamen.

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,11:11   

Quote (csadams @ Oct. 29 2008,22:42)
This is one of the few times I'm ashamed to be a Kansan.

How many of those few times does FtK own?

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,12:11   

So close but, alas, the wrong half of the ticket.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Gunthernacus



Posts: 235
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,12:22   

Interesting snippet at the end of an article titled: Joe?  Where did you go?
 
Quote
A local school district official confirmed after the event that of the 6,000 people estimated by the fire marshal to be in attendance this morning, more than 4,000 were bused in from schools in the area. The entire 2,500-student Defiance School District was in attendance, the official said, in addition to at least three other schools from neighboring districts, one of which sent 14 buses.

No reports of compulsory singing, though.

ETA:  McCain rally.

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Given that we are all descended from Adam and Eve...genetic defects as a result of intra-family marriage would not begin to crop up until after the first few dozen generations. - Dr. Hugh Ross

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,12:58   

The Economist endorses Obama.

   
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,13:04   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 30 2008,12:11)
So close but, alas, the wrong half of the ticket.

I didn't realize you were a fan of Palin, David.  I'm speechless.

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If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,13:11   

George Will: Call Him John the Careless

   
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,13:54   

Quote (jeffox @ Oct. 29 2008,21:40)
     
Quote
John McCain was aboard the USS Forrestal when some of its on-deck ordnance caught fire, started to squib off, and tried to sink the boat. In fact it was his jet's fuel tank that the errant Zuni rocket went through to start the conflagaration. The fire was no fault of John's, but you would think he'd have a personal appreciation of the risks involved in handling pyrotechnics. Apparently not.


When I was in boot camp, we were required to view the on-ship videos of this event for our "this is what happens if things really fuck up" training.  'Twas something one never forgets.  Especially since it showed at least 2 500 pound bombs going off, killing both the first and second teams of firefighters topside.  Ick, ick, ick.

My understanding of those events comes from personal recollections related to me by former aviators. The main cause of the Forrestal tragedy was the failure to only use -- per the rules -- insensitive munitions, i.e. bombs that would withstand a fire long enough to permit the firefighters to douse the flames. Bad shit happens when you don't follow the rules, especially when those rules were written in blood.

It is also a dictum among fighter pilots that if you got shot down, it's because you did something stoopid. Sounds like Right Stuff machismo to me (I'm not a fighter pilot) and I don't actually know why McCain got shot down, but he does have a life-long history of making rash, ill-considered decisions, the most recent example being the selection of Bible Spice to be his running mate and America's next Commander-in-Chief-in-waiting.

Quote (jeffox @ Oct. 29 2008,21:40)
Carriers were not the kind of ship I wanted to serve on, anyway. [..]  Plus they're mighty big TARGETS.

Spoken like a true bubble-head -- not that you're wrong! But the Navy always buys the boats they think won the last war. Two centuries of tradition unblemished by progress.

Sorry to stray off-topic. Uh, lemme see... something about Arden's wife, Louis's mother, and pickles? LOLcats to follow.

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,13:59   

Quote (olegt @ Oct. 30 2008,11:04)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 30 2008,12:11)
So close but, alas, the wrong half of the ticket.

I didn't realize you were a fan of Palin, David.  I'm speechless.

We don't know how to break the news to David that the stripper doesn't really like him.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,14:59   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 30 2008,21:59)
Quote (olegt @ Oct. 30 2008,11:04)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 30 2008,12:11)
So close but, alas, the wrong half of the ticket.

I didn't realize you were a fan of Palin, David.  I'm speechless.

We don't know how to break the news to David that the stripper doesn't really like him.

Yeah well, with the price of blow jobs these days DH still thinks that if he strikes up a conversation first, he might get a discount.....in his case .......wrong.

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,16:22   

Quote (k.e.. @ Oct. 30 2008,20:59)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 30 2008,21:59)
Quote (olegt @ Oct. 30 2008,11:04)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 30 2008,12:11)
So close but, alas, the wrong half of the ticket.

I didn't realize you were a fan of Palin, David.  I'm speechless.

We don't know how to break the news to David that the stripper doesn't really like him.

Yeah well, with the price of blow jobs these days DH still thinks that if he strikes up a conversation first, he might get a discount.....in his case .......wrong.

In the immortal words of Chris Rock "There's no sex in the champagne room. Ohhhhh, there's champagne in the champagne room, that's why it's called the champagne room. But there is no sex in the champagne room."

I feel that, in addition to Arden and K.e.'s salient advice, I have perhaps helped to reinforce that point for Heddle.

I can only hope that he wakes from his identity politics induced stripper/Palin fetishistic stupor and realises that neither the stripper or Palin a) love him, or b) are like him.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,16:32   

Louis as if there were anything sort of politics but identity politics.

But you are spot on.  Nanna Nanook of the Nubile North don't love you hun.  <rolls eyes>.  

Some folks are just suckers for self-loathing, enough to suck up to cynical reactionary politics like George McGovern or Sarah Palin or Strom Thurmond or Jesse Helms or Ernie Fletcher or Elizabeth Dole or what have you.

just wanted to point out that none of these fucksticks are 'like' many of us here.  i'd wager that any politician is more 'like' any other politician than they are anyone else.  self-promoting grandstanding colostomy bags.  

at least Heddle is honest about it.  Can't vote for a black guy, eh, Heddle?

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,16:54   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 30 2008,22:32)
Louis as if there were anything sort of politics but identity politics.

[SNIP]

Sadly, there is. But you'll just have to discover that for yourself, I guess.

It's one of the reasons I loathe that tu quoque shit people pull, it distracts from what's going on underneath, it distracts from the meat. It distracts, most importantly, from the rational study (and hence execution of policy based as far as possible on that study) of large scale social phenomena and systems of government, things that absolutely can be examined in a rational, reason based manner.

But, like I said, you'll just have to discover that for yourself.

Louis

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Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,17:42   

Identity politics is when you identify with a certain oppressed group, and act politically to end or ameliorate the oppression of that group.

So for instance, if I vote against a light-rail bond measure because I think light-rail is a poor solution, I'm not practicing identity politics. When I vote for a candidate who will stop discrimination against atheists like me, I'm practicing identity politics.

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,17:55   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 30 2008,16:32)
Louis as if there were anything sort of politics but identity politics.

But you are spot on.  Nanna Nanook of the Nubile North don't love you hun.  <rolls eyes>.  

Some folks are just suckers for self-loathing, enough to suck up to cynical reactionary politics like George McGovern or Sarah Palin or Strom Thurmond or Jesse Helms or Ernie Fletcher or Elizabeth Dole or what have you.

just wanted to point out that none of these fucksticks are 'like' many of us here.  i'd wager that any politician is more 'like' any other politician than they are anyone else.  self-promoting grandstanding colostomy bags.  

at least Heddle is honest about it.  Can't vote for a black guy, eh, Heddle?

Well I was going to vote for a black guy, but I guess that doesn't count. However, I have voted for two black guys. Wilder as governor of VA when I lived here before. And (somewhat embarrassed to say) Alan Keyes in a primary the first time he ran--was that 1996? He didn't seem quite so crazy then.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,18:41   

Quote (dheddle @ Oct. 30 2008,17:55)
Well I was going to vote for a black guy, but I guess that doesn't count. However, I have voted for two black guys.

Yeah but those two black guys aren't as uppity as Obama.  I mean, this black guy is running for President!

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,19:29   

I don't think it's fair to call Heddle racist. I see no evidence he's voting against Obama because Obama's black. I think the quality of his arguments against Obama are on par with his "Sensitivity" arguments from years past, but I don't see that they're racist. Either stop calling Heddle racist, or bring some clear evidence that he is.

(If you do have such evidence, fine, I'm just saying I haven't seen it yet, and you should provide it if you want to make such a strong allegation. Calling somebody racist is not to be done lightly.)

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,19:53   

with a flexible enough definition of 'oppression' any voting for any candidate based on any reason then becomes identity politics.  

I propose that this is generally true of participants in 'representative democracy'.  It's a socially equivalent to bragging to some other drunks around the campfire "By God If I Ruled The World".  Except that the handlers have developed the meme that the inmates run the zoo.  Literally.  "American Revolution" and all that.  "Mavericks".  "Outsiders".  Same old macho heman cowboy shit perpetuating all sorts of myths because they are part of a national identity.

One of those myths is that your vote counts.  Not as in does it matter who wins.  In that it has any effect on anything in the real world.  These clowns are going to carry on the same way whether you vote for them or their opponent.  "By god if enough of us git together'n vote then they'll listen" is then standard rejoinder, which is clearly the so-called identity politics (pseudo-ethical claim) fallacy.  By voting you are participating in a group identity exercise.  If you don't think my claim holds (they will do the same thing no matter what you personally individually do) try it sometime.  Politics is a great big metaphysical group hug, or more accurately circle jerk.

And it has long been this way.  Perpetuate the illusion that participation provides a referendum on the power structure of elites, and that said referendum will manifest changes in the power structure at a rate directional and proportional to the will of Everyman, over Everyman.  That is a clearly illusion, the faces and names change but the song remains the same.

Which brings me to why I think this identity politics thing is OK for Heddle to admit and I support that.  It's true that more sophisticated analyses are applicable to the issues that Heddle flips past while looking for car crashes, beer commercials and cable news shots of Sarah Palin walking down the hall.  

It's true that some of these issues do affect people in real ways, but that does not entail that the particular (or any particular) political details even encompass an empirical solution to any such issue.

It's also true that hypocrisy and rhetoric and debate is fun too.  And critiquing the performance of the players is like a soap opera.  You can tune in every week.  Some folks need the illusion that social identity gives them, they get this from church and representative government.

Let me be clear:  if we were voting on whether or not Paw should plow up the lower 40, or whether Paw should let it grow another year and burn it, that's a scale of democracy that works.  This other bullshit is a different animal all together.  

But it's fun to watch.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,19:55   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 30 2008,17:29)
I don't think it's fair to call Heddle racist. I see no evidence he's voting against Obama because Obama's black. I think the quality of his arguments against Obama are on par with his "Sensitivity" arguments from years past, but I don't see that they're racist. Either stop calling Heddle racist, or bring some clear evidence that he is.

(If you do have such evidence, fine, I'm just saying I haven't seen it yet, and you should provide it if you want to make such a strong allegation. Calling somebody racist is not to be done lightly.)

Agreed. I think it's clear Heddle is voting for Palin/McCain because (a) Obama isn't Chock Full o' Jesus enough for Dave's liking and (b) Obama doesn't shoot out starbursts all the fuck over the place like Palin does.

This is more than enough to ridicule David for, and there is abundant evidence for this allegation. We need not branch out, as it were.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,20:05   

I'm not at all suggesting Heddle is racist.  Not at all.  Let me be clear.

The point of that is that if you are into the single issue thing (I'll argue if you want, multiple issues) that just by the nature of things you wind up with comparisons such as that.  It could have been catholic.  It could have been women with nine fingers if one were running.  The kid with freckles, or the one who voted 95 times for the devil or higher taxes or what have you.  It's all the same.

I think Heddle is pulling a bit of y'alls leg here.  I am sure he has more nuanced positions, or could perhaps if pressed (or stretched on the rack) have at least a longer explanation for his profession of faith in a representative, but he doesn't give it.

My argument is that it doesn't matter what one's reasons are for participating in the process, it's all the same. Teaching a kid to ride a bike, or mowing your neighbor's yard because she is a bitter little old woman that will probably vote for the white guy, or giving a bum a sandwich, those are actions that make differences that are not mediated through self-serving professional corporate whores.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,20:24   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 30 2008,18:05)
I think Heddle is pulling a bit of y'alls leg here.  I am sure he has more nuanced positions,

That is far from obvious.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,21:01   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 30 2008,20:24)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 30 2008,18:05)
I think Heddle is pulling a bit of y'alls leg here.  I am sure he has more nuanced positions,

That is far from obvious.

far from obvious, agreed.  hence the show.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,03:50   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 31 2008,02:24)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 30 2008,18:05)
I think Heddle is pulling a bit of y'alls leg here.  I am sure he has more nuanced positions,

That is far from obvious.

And I for one certainly don't buy it. Based on what Heddle has said (and I have nothing else to go on) he's trying to shore up his anti-intellectualism with fancy sounding words.

You can hope (as do I) that Heddle has more nuanced positions on various issues, but thus far there is no evidence to support that hope, and plenty of evidence to contradict it.

Anyway, AFAICT he's not a racist, and I agree with Arden that we have enough to mock without branching out into new and exciting territory.

Oh and whilst I'm at it, I agree with your comment about grass roots work being of vital importance.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,08:19   

White House tries to bone the country on the way out the door.

Won't these idiots just quietly leave in disgrace? Do they Have to try to cement their reputation?

   
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,08:59   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 31 2008,09:19)
White House tries to bone the country on the way out the door.

Won't these idiots just quietly leave in disgrace? Do they Have to try to cement their reputation?

Ease regulation on financial industry = good results

Ease regulation on environmental controls = only good things can happen!

stevestory, Bush is just remembering what it was to be Republican; limited governement.  His selective memory is that, after years of increasing much of the federal government he remembered he hates big governement and needs to limit it.

I'm thinking the next President will be a one-termer, only because there will be so much shit to repair they'll never make enough progress to impress the public.

I'm actually somewhat serious about this.  I don't mean to say we're at the end of the world, but that people are expecting such monumental change, in so short a time period, that they are bound to be disappointed.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,09:25   

It may be easier to pass laws to dispose of the regulatory damage than to use the regulatory process itself to undo the last-minute stuff. These guys are like burglars who, hearing the approaching police sirens, engage in a little vandalism and arson before making their convenient exit.

We may have the largest per-capita prison population, but I will be truly disappointed if we don't expand it a bit following domestic regime change.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,09:34   

as i have repeated perhaps ad nauseum, the relaxation of water quality rules associated with surface coal mining activity is perhaps the most heinous of the last grab in the cookie jar we are seeing from Bush II & co.  The ad nauseum part is that
neither brigade of these clown possees is going to do anything about it.

Both of these tools have claimed to oppose 'mountain top removal coal mining' but both of these tools claim to support 'clean coal'.

There ain't no such god damn thing as clean coal.  As others have said, Coal could be solid white and disperse pure ice crystals but as long as you were blowing up mountains to get it, it would never be clean.

Injecting carbon laden waste into deep shafts results in aquifier pollution.  Look it up...  all attempts to deal with the very copious amounts of toxic waste that are a by product of coal manufacture have led to regional degradation of water resources and local extinction of entire orders of macroinvertebrates.  

for those who cannot get behind the wall, the citation is
Quote
Gregory J. Pond, Margaret E. Passmore, Frank A. Borsuk,
Lou Reynolds,  Carole J. Rose.  2008.  Downstream effects of mountaintop coal mining: comparing biological conditions using family- and genus-level macroinvertebrate bioassessment tools. J. N. Am. Benthol. Soc., 2008, 27(3):717–737


one more reason to be cynical.  Calling Ed Abbey!

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,14:39   

This just in, Palin says we're violating her constitutional rights by criticizing her:

Quote

"If [the media] convince enough voters that that is negative campaigning, for me to call Barack Obama out on his associations," Palin said, "then I don't know what the future of our country would be in terms of First Amendment rights and our ability to ask questions without fear of attacks by the mainstream media."


--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,15:07   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 31 2008,14:39)
This just in, Palin says we're violating her constitutional rights by criticizing her:

 
Quote

"If [the media] convince enough voters that that is negative campaigning, for me to call Barack Obama out on his associations," Palin said, "then I don't know what the future of our country would be in terms of First Amendment rights and our ability to ask questions without fear of attacks by the mainstream media."

Andrew Sullivan's response was pitch perfect.
Quote
Yes, she is that dumb.


--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,17:56   

McCain 'kind of like Jesus':

 
Quote
State GOP chair: McCain 'kind of like Jesus'

By AARON GOULD SHEININ
Published on: 05/17/08
Columbus — Georgia Republican Party chairwoman Sue Everhart said Saturday that the party's presumed presidential nominee has a lot in common with Jesus Christ.

"John McCain is kind of like Jesus Christ on the cross," Everhart said as she began the second day of the state GOP convention. "He never denounced God, either."

Everhart was praising McCain for never denouncing the United States while he was being tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.

"I'm not trying to compare John McCain to Jesus Christ, I'm looking at the pain that was there," she said.


Heddle? Is this true?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,21:16   

I should have predicted this, but I'm seeing a lot of trick or treaters this year dressed as Barack Obama.

Good thing they're not trick or treating in Dave Scot's neighborhood.

Haven't noticed any Sarah Palins yet.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,21:46   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 31 2008,21:16)
I should have predicted this, but I'm seeing a lot of trick or treaters this year dressed as Barack Obama.

Good thing they're not trick or treating in Dave Scot's neighborhood.

Haven't noticed any Sarah Palins yet.

My daughter (age 20) is dressed as John McCain, and her boyfriend is dressed as Sarah Palin. They are a cute couple...

She made the masks for both of their costumes, and the Palin visage has a "666" emblazoned in lipstick on the forehead. Time for the exorcism, I think.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,22:56   

For us worriers:



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,00:13   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 31 2008,20:16)
I should have predicted this, but I'm seeing a lot of trick or treaters this year dressed as Barack Obama.

Good thing they're not trick or treating in Dave Scot's neighborhood.

Haven't noticed any Sarah Palins yet.

The teen daughter of a good friend dressed as Palin, quite looked the part as well.

The scariest part of her costume...she also wore a name tag that said:

"President Palin,
John McCain is dead!"

I think she could have added "Long live the W" to round out the horror of it all.

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,05:43   

This thing circulated my way:
Quote
Dear Red States:

If you manage to steal this election too we've decided we're leaving.  We intend to form our own country, and we're taking the other Blue States with us. In case you aren't aware, that includes California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin,Michigan, Illinois  and all the Northeast. We believe this split will be beneficial to the nation, and especially to the people of the new country of New California.

To sum up briefly: You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states. We get stem cell research and the best beaches. We get the Statue of Liberty. You get Dollywood.

We get Intel and Microsoft. You get WorldCom.

We get Harvard. You get Ole' Miss.

We get 85% of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs. You get Alabama.

We get two-thirds of the tax revenue, you get to make the red states pay their fair share.

Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22% lower than the Christian Coalition's, we get a bunch of happy families. You get a bunch of single moms.


Please be aware that Nuevo California will be pro-choice and anti-war,  and we're going to want all our citizens back from Iraq at once. If you need people to fight, ask your evangelicals. They have kids they're apparently willing to send to their deaths for no purpose, and they don't care if you don't show pictures of their children's caskets coming home. We do wish you success in Iraq , and hope that the WMDs turn up, but we're not willing to spend our resources in Bush's Quagmire.


With the Blue States in hand, we will have firm control of 80% of the country's fresh water, more than 90% of the pineapple and lettuce, 92% of the nation's fresh fruit, 95% of America's quality wines, 90% of all cheese, 90% of the high tech industry, 95% of the corn and soybeans (thanks Iowa!), most of the U.S. low-sulfur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools plus Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT.


With the Red States, on the other hand, you will have to cope with 88% of all obese Americans (and their projected health care costs), 92% of all U.S. mosquitoes, nearly 100% of the tornadoes, 90% of the hurricanes, 99% of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100% of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia.

We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you.

Additionally, 38% of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62% believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the war, the death penalty or gun laws, 44% say that evolution is only a theory, 53% that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and 61% of you crazy bastards believe you are people with higher morals then we lefties.

Finally, we're taking the good pot, too. You can have that dirt weed they grow in Mexico

Peace out,

--Blue States


--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Jkrebs



Posts: 587
Joined: Sep. 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,10:43   

If all those facts are true, that a pretty strong statement.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,11:56   

That did have a bit of a made-up-numbers flavor to it.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,12:01   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 01 2008,05:43)
This thing circulated my way:
 
Quote
Dear Red States:

If you manage to steal this election too we've decided we're leaving.  We intend to form our own country, and we're taking the other Blue States with us. In case you aren't aware, that includes California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin,Michigan, Illinois  and all the Northeast. We believe this split will be beneficial to the nation, and especially to the people of the new country of New California.

To sum up briefly: You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states. We get stem cell research and the best beaches. We get the Statue of Liberty. You get Dollywood.

We get Intel and Microsoft. You get WorldCom.

We get Harvard. You get Ole' Miss.

We get 85% of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs. You get Alabama.

We get two-thirds of the tax revenue, you get to make the red states pay their fair share.

Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22% lower than the Christian Coalition's, we get a bunch of happy families. You get a bunch of single moms.


Please be aware that Nuevo California will be pro-choice and anti-war,  and we're going to want all our citizens back from Iraq at once. If you need people to fight, ask your evangelicals. They have kids they're apparently willing to send to their deaths for no purpose, and they don't care if you don't show pictures of their children's caskets coming home. We do wish you success in Iraq , and hope that the WMDs turn up, but we're not willing to spend our resources in Bush's Quagmire.


With the Blue States in hand, we will have firm control of 80% of the country's fresh water, more than 90% of the pineapple and lettuce, 92% of the nation's fresh fruit, 95% of America's quality wines, 90% of all cheese, 90% of the high tech industry, 95% of the corn and soybeans (thanks Iowa!), most of the U.S. low-sulfur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools plus Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT.


With the Red States, on the other hand, you will have to cope with 88% of all obese Americans (and their projected health care costs), 92% of all U.S. mosquitoes, nearly 100% of the tornadoes, 90% of the hurricanes, 99% of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100% of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia.

We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you.

Additionally, 38% of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62% believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the war, the death penalty or gun laws, 44% say that evolution is only a theory, 53% that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and 61% of you crazy bastards believe you are people with higher morals then we lefties.

Finally, we're taking the good pot, too. You can have that dirt weed they grow in Mexico

Peace out,

--Blue States

that sort of vapid ignorance is why i despise know-nothing do-gooder smug limp wristed 'liberals'.  if i had to choose it would be obvious.  give me 50 heddles over this douchebag anyday.  

Quote
We get 85% of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs. You get Alabama.


I would like to boil and eat 85% of America's venture capital and entepreneurs.  Alabama is fucking amazing.

dollywood has good roller coasters.  california has Arden.  so fuck off.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,12:09   

Sarah Palin: telling the truth, like, undermines my first amendment rights.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,12:36   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 01 2008,10:01)
I would like to boil and eat 85% of America's venture capital and entepreneurs.  Alabama is fucking amazing.

dollywood has good roller coasters.  california has Arden.  so fuck off.

While Tennessee has Erasmus.



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,12:38   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 01 2008,10:09)
Sarah Palin: telling the truth, like, undermines my first amendment rights.

HA I BEAT YOU YET AGAIN STERNBERGER STORY :angry:

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,12:41   

A nice comment from that link:

Quote

First Amendment, simplified: We are free to make full and utter asses of ourselves, as long as we don't hurt others.

That includes freedom to say things which destroy our personal credibility. Freedom to invite ridicule.

The simplest paradox of the first amendment is that exercising it may cause others to quit listening to us.

Message to Sarah: Soon, the world is going to quit listening to you.

Posted by: Bose on October 31, 2008 at 2:36 PM | PERMALINK


I sure hope Bose is right about that last part.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,13:16   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 01 2008,13:36)
While Tennessee has Erasmus.

Can Erasmus afford Budweiser? He seems like more of a Steel Reserve man to me  :D

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,13:40   

budweiser is perfect for catfishing, digging ramps or ginseng, or picking in the yard.  regular old anyday 10 beer session drinking I'm not so picky.  Must represent!

I found this picture of Arden.  Not sure if he looks better in red than blue.




--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,17:23   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 01 2008,11:40)
budweiser is perfect for catfishing, digging ramps or ginseng, or picking in the yard.

I heard tell it's also real good for treating possum bites.



Yup.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,17:28   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Nov. 01 2008,10:01)
I would like to boil and eat 85% of America's venture capital and entepreneurs.  Alabama is fucking amazing.

dollywood has good roller coasters.  california has Arden.  so fuck off.

Cool with me. Promise to stay away?

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,17:45   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 01 2008,13:01)
I would like to boil and eat 85% of America's venture capital and entepreneurs.  Alabama is fucking amazing.

dollywood has good roller coasters.  california has Arden.  so fuck off.

Looks like Red States got the corner on moody cannibals, too.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2008,19:19   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 01 2008,10:01)
I would like to boil and eat 85% of America's venture capital and entepreneurs.  Alabama is fucking amazing.

dollywood has good roller coasters.  california has Arden.  so fuck off.

Does this also mean none of our tax dollars have to go to the South anymore? Sweet.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2008,07:24   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Nov. 01 2008,17:28)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 01 2008,10:01)
I would like to boil and eat 85% of America's venture capital and entepreneurs.  Alabama is fucking amazing.

dollywood has good roller coasters.  california has Arden.  so fuck off.

Cool with me. Promise to stay away?

count on it son.  there ain't a ramp patch for a thousand miles.  when SHF gary i am sure that you will be boiling and eating your own share of hollywood sissies and silicon valley fruits.  I bet they are stringy and there ain't no meat on them.  you can have them.

but it will be a shame when the last useless ecological dead weight californian is dead gone and digested, gary, and you have to start fishing again to eat cause it's going to get hard to take one of those fancy uppity boats out in the ocean with no gasoline.  if the sacramento river wasn't all fucked you might have some more options.  you can color me in the park like Tsali snatching the lips off big fat natives and rooting up dinner off the creek bank.



--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Jkrebs



Posts: 587
Joined: Sep. 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2008,07:49   

Bad news for the right-wing anti-Obama conspiricists: Obama has a valid birth certificate

Quote
Obama's Birth Certificate Verified By Hawaii Officials
Health Department Receives Multiple Requests For Copies

HONOLULU -- Hawaii's state's Department of Health director on Friday released a statement verifying the legitimacy of Sen. Barack Obama birth certificate, KITV reported.

The state has received multiple requests for a copy of Obama's birth certificate. State law does not allow officials to release the birth certificate of a person to someone outside of the family.

There were rumors that Obama was born in Kenya, where his father is from. The Constitution requires that the president be a natural born citizen of the U.S.

While many sites and news organizations have released copies provided by the Obama campaign, the rumors have persisted.

"There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record," DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.

State officials said Saturday they have personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate.

"Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures," Fukino said.

Multiple lawsuits were filed in several states to try and force Obama to provide proof of citizenship.


Link

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2008,08:30   

The likely wingnut response: "That's just the conspiracy doing its thing."

Never let the facts get in the way of a favored argument... just like in religious antievolution.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2008,10:24   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 02 2008,06:30)
The likely wingnut response: "That's just the conspiracy doing its thing."

Never let the facts get in the way of a favored argument... just like in religious antievolution.

If asked, I doubt the wingnuts would have *any* answer to the question "what WOULD constitute valid proof that Obama was born in Hawaii?"

It's telling that McCain himself hasn't pursued this, since he was born in the Panama Canal Zone, or possibly in a military hospital in Panama proper.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2008,18:03   

I am utterly disappointed. Utterly. Here we are 2 days before the election and McCain's got nothing? No last minute surprise? No shocking new allegations? They're putting out robocalls about Barack having a half-aunt who's here illegally? Jeremiah Wright? That's it?

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2008,18:18   

Meanwhile, the George W. Bush Presidential Library nears completion . . .



--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2008,22:46   

mission accomplished.  did you photoshop that too?  genius.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,03:12   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Nov. 02 2008,07:24)
Quote (Dr.GH @ Nov. 01 2008,17:28)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 01 2008,10:01)
I would like to boil and eat 85% of America's venture capital and entepreneurs.  Alabama is fucking amazing.

dollywood has good roller coasters.  california has Arden.  so fuck off.

Cool with me. Promise to stay away?

count on it son.  there ain't a ramp patch for a thousand miles.  when SHF gary i am sure that you will be boiling and eating your own share of hollywood sissies and silicon valley fruits.  

I bet they are stringy and there ain't no meat on them.  you can have them.

but it will be a shame when the last useless ecological dead weight californian is dead gone and digested, gary, and you have to start fishing again to eat cause it's going to get hard to take one of those fancy uppity boats out in the ocean with no gasoline.  if the sacramento river wasn't all fucked you might have some more options.  you can color me in the park like Tsali snatching the lips off big fat natives and rooting up dinner off the creek bank.


Erasmus, that's about the dumbest thing I've ever read off of your keyboard.  :angry:

There's no spot that can't be someone's heaven and even if they had gasoline or diesel, they've gotta have fish to catch. As soon as they start fishin' for 'em without any restrictions, the few that's left 'll be gone. And as for your trout, they need cold water. In not too long, you'll have to move north or dam every creek to keep the temperature low enough so they can breed. Of course, damming the creek also messes with breeding but hey, once they've dug all the cottonwood from the shores, that won't matter anyway. And the ramp patches better hope we don't switch to coal...

Bottom line, the fucks who want to drill baby drill are also the ones who say, frontloaders can move mountains cause they read it in the bible. They're also the ones who want to teach the public schoolers that the world is 6000 years old and that god gave us dominion over the Earth (Her natural lubricants are a gift because She loves us) and the beasts. They're also the ones who think the first ammendment means they deserve Walmart and who think Doritos are a vegetable.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,05:50   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 01 2008,13:41)
A nice comment from that link:

 
Quote

First Amendment, simplified: We are free to make full and utter asses of ourselves, as long as we don't hurt others.

That includes freedom to say things which destroy our personal credibility. Freedom to invite ridicule.

The simplest paradox of the first amendment is that exercising it may cause others to quit listening to us.

Message to Sarah: Soon, the world is going to quit listening to you.

Posted by: Bose on October 31, 2008 at 2:36 PM | PERMALINK


I sure hope Bose is right about that last part.

Whoops, too late:

Quote
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A new national poll suggests Sarah Palin may be hurting Republican presidential nominee John McCain more than she's helping him.

Fifty-seven percent of likely voters say Sarah Palin does not have the personal qualities a president should have.

A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Sunday indicates McCain's running mate is growing less popular among voters and may be costing him a few crucial percentage points in the race for the White House.

Fifty-seven percent of likely voters questioned in the poll said Palin does not have the personal qualities a president should have. That's up 8 points since September.

Fifty-three percent say she does not agree with them on important issues. That's also higher than September.

"Just after the GOP convention in early September, 53 percent said they would vote for Palin over Joe Biden if there were a separate vote for vice president. Now, Biden would beat Palin by 12 points if the running mates were chosen in a separate vote," said CNN Polling Director Keating Holland.


The more you know....

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Art



Posts: 69
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,06:07   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 02 2008,18:03)
I am utterly disappointed. Utterly. Here we are 2 days before the election and McCain's got nothing? No last minute surprise? No shocking new allegations? They're putting out robocalls about Barack having a half-aunt who's here illegally? Jeremiah Wright? That's it?

Um, perhaps you've noticed that the USA seems to be carpet bombing parts of Pakistan, in what would seem to be a desperate attempt to bag Bin Laden before Tuesday.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,06:53   

Quote (Art @ Nov. 03 2008,06:07)
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 02 2008,18:03)
I am utterly disappointed. Utterly. Here we are 2 days before the election and McCain's got nothing? No last minute surprise? No shocking new allegations? They're putting out robocalls about Barack having a half-aunt who's here illegally? Jeremiah Wright? That's it?

Um, perhaps you've noticed that the USA seems to be carpet bombing parts of Pakistan, in what would seem to be a desperate attempt to bag Bin Laden before Tuesday.

Well, I heard that the World's Biggest Terrorist, and the man responsible for more American dead than Bid Laden is currently hanging out at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington DC.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,06:55   

Quote (BWE @ Nov. 03 2008,03:12)
 
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 02 2008,07:24)
 
Quote (Dr.GH @ Nov. 01 2008,17:28)
   
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 01 2008,10:01)
I would like to boil and eat 85% of America's venture capital and entepreneurs.  Alabama is fucking amazing.

dollywood has good roller coasters.  california has Arden.  so fuck off.

Cool with me. Promise to stay away?

count on it son.  there ain't a ramp patch for a thousand miles.  when SHF gary i am sure that you will be boiling and eating your own share of hollywood sissies and silicon valley fruits.  

I bet they are stringy and there ain't no meat on them.  you can have them.

but it will be a shame when the last useless ecological dead weight californian is dead gone and digested, gary, and you have to start fishing again to eat cause it's going to get hard to take one of those fancy uppity boats out in the ocean with no gasoline.  if the sacramento river wasn't all fucked you might have some more options.  you can color me in the park like Tsali snatching the lips off big fat natives and rooting up dinner off the creek bank.


Erasmus, that's about the dumbest thing I've ever read off of your keyboard.  :angry:

There's no spot that can't be someone's heaven and even if they had gasoline or diesel, they've gotta have fish to catch. As soon as they start fishin' for 'em without any restrictions, the few that's left 'll be gone. And as for your trout, they need cold water. In not too long, you'll have to move north or dam every creek to keep the temperature low enough so they can breed. Of course, damming the creek also messes with breeding but hey, once they've dug all the cottonwood from the shores, that won't matter anyway. And the ramp patches better hope we don't switch to coal...

Bottom line, the fucks who want to drill baby drill are also the ones who say, frontloaders can move mountains cause they read it in the bible. They're also the ones who want to teach the public schoolers that the world is 6000 years old and that god gave us dominion over the Earth (Her natural lubricants are a gift because She loves us) and the beasts. They're also the ones who think the first ammendment means they deserve Walmart and who think Doritos are a vegetable.

BWE I'm talking about SHF.  I want to boil and eat some pasty holier than thou self-professed librul types who wish the Unconsolidated States of Appalachia to only be a 3rd world on their conditions.

We'd like it to remain a 3rd world on OUR conditions, thank you very much.  

MTR and TVA and all that bullshit is something that lies at the feet of both parties in this country.  Given the proper preface (darkness, misery, wailing and gnashing of teeth) I would like to boil and eat the TVA board (perhaps starting with this cunt).  In the same meal, given the SHF scenario of course and not as standard fare, I would like as hors d eourves anyone who supports Clean Coal.  Note that this includes TweedleeSame and TweedleHussein.  For dessert, the concern troll type like Gary who wear an effete effeminate brush of eau du reason over their furry sweaty bigotry of self-loathing fear.  

which brings me to a point.  perhaps my philosophy can be negated by considering that participating in this charade, i.e. voting for anyone, might more hastily quicken the reckoning.  Ushering in, rather than staving off, the SHF.  If so then there truly is no excuse for not voting, although for an altogether distinct and disparate set of reasons than the ones proffered by my French chemist friend posing as a welshman in england.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,07:07   

BWE sorry got sidetracked dreaming about eating fat people again.

Quote
fucks who want to drill baby drill are also the ones who say, frontloaders can move mountains cause they read it in the bible. They're also the ones who want to teach the public schoolers that the world is 6000 years old and that god gave us dominion over the Earth (Her natural lubricants are a gift because She loves us) and the beasts. They're also the ones who think the first ammendment means they deserve Walmart and who think Doritos are a vegetable.


You might wish to distinguish between the ones who genuinely believe these things and those that find these sorts of views as useful carrots to move masses who are neither enfranchised enough nor relevant enough (in any way save as a vote and as a 37 hour work week if they are lucky) to understand that it is cheap machiavellian cynicism and not representative government.

i have lots of friends and family that fall in the first group.  They are not to blame, ultimately, for they are the victims of the second group.  Willing victims, perhaps, but that is predicated upon so many other things that i don't find it to be a helpful heuristic for understanding the history of movements or government, nor the personal motivation of individuals who might participate in the first group.

which is why such bilious hate-onanism such as that screed posted at the top of this page fails to hit its mark.  blaming the victim is a chickenshit game for cowards and all too often you see people, who should know better, find they can't resist diddling their schaedenfrude button and getting a nice bump of cultural superiority.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,07:49   

50 heddles, more or less. Courtesy of wikipedia.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,09:30   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 03 2008,05:49)
50 heddles, more or less. Courtesy of wikipedia.

Quote
A close up on heddles, with a blue warp that is not under tension.


Hmmm. Not sure about the 'blue' part, or the 'not under tension' part.  ;)

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,09:33   

Quote (Art @ Nov. 03 2008,04:07)
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 02 2008,18:03)
I am utterly disappointed. Utterly. Here we are 2 days before the election and McCain's got nothing? No last minute surprise? No shocking new allegations? They're putting out robocalls about Barack having a half-aunt who's here illegally? Jeremiah Wright? That's it?

Um, perhaps you've noticed that the USA seems to be carpet bombing parts of Pakistan, in what would seem to be a desperate attempt to bag Bin Laden before Tuesday.

Carpet bombing, in an attempt to capture a person who's probably not alive anyway, and who if he IS alive is probably stuck to a dialysis machine in a cave a couple thousand feet beneath a mountain.

Doin a heck of a job, Georgie!

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,09:54   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 03 2008,04:55)
BWE I'm talking about SHF.  I want to boil and eat some pasty holier than thou self-professed librul types who wish the Unconsolidated States of Appalachia to only be a 3rd world on their conditions.

We'd like it to remain a 3rd world on OUR conditions, thank you very much.

There's wisdom in Ras's drunken rant. In my experience, Southern politicians have a FAR better record on environmental issues than them West Coast liberal elitist types. Heck, the 'Southern Strategy' is practically synonymous with 'environmentalism'.

And just TRY and name the last presidential candidate the South voted for who had a subpar environmentalist record -- I bet you can't. :angry:

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,10:50   

'environmental issues' in this political system is a trumped up masquerade of status quo enrich thy buddies whilst wearing the drag garb of empathetic rachel carson-ism.

it is not in any way an effort to actually deal with the internal contradictions of the relation of capital to the ecological systems from which they are derived.  if it were, then the voting records of Bumfuck Egypt, CA vs Bumfuck Egypt, KY would be relevant.  They aren't.

But if you are saying "Who is the better Greenwash artist?" then that's a different issue altogether.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2008,12:55   

Here is a particularly rich vein of tard.  Since UD is down and all.  It reads like FSTDT greatest hits.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,07:00   

Voted

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,08:48   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Nov. 04 2008,07:00)
Voted

Moi oci.

Was hoping to be exit polled--I wanted to say "I voted for Sarah Palin, but that McCain fellow tagged along."

Talked to another physics faculty member who voted for Palin (and I mean that as written). I don't harbor any suspicions that we are
part of a silent majority. Just two outliers.

The writing is on the wall. In case I'm not up when it becomes official (I go to bed early) congrats to all the Obama supporters.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,09:17   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 04 2008,08:48)
Quote (Spottedwind @ Nov. 04 2008,07:00)
Voted

Moi oci.

Was hoping to be exit polled--I wanted to say "I voted for Sarah Palin, but that McCain fellow tagged along."

Talked to another physics faculty member who voted for Palin (and I mean that as written). I don't harbor any suspicions that we are
part of a silent majority. Just two outliers.

The writing is on the wall. In case I'm not up when it becomes official (I go to bed early) congrats to all the Obama supporters.

The congrats to supporters strikes me odd somehow.  I'm not sure exactly why, but reading it brought me up short.  Not because it was unexpected; I expect to hear a lot of that sort of thing today (as I have heard it in the past).

I find it strange that we congratulate supporters of a particular candidate rather than the candidate themselves.  Personally, I feel there is nothing to congratulate at this time--even as a person who voted for Obama.  Congratulations should come after successful policy has been introduced and instituted--no sure thing on either account.

To congratulate supporters of a political candidate for winning an election seems to highlight a basic disconnect between the electorate and what political discourse should be.  The point of political action should not be winning the race (yet it so often is...flash forward 3 months when all our politicians will be focusing on reelection instead of doing their jobs), but on governance.  As a society, we focus so much (exclusively?) on the race and the identity politics that we mostly forget--or are apathetic to--the real business of government.

Sorry about the babbling, it just struck me weird.  Nothing personal, Heddle, your comment was just the first of many similar ones that I'll be hearing, so I used it.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,09:29   

Quote
To congratulate supporters of a political candidate for winning an election seems to highlight a basic disconnect between the electorate and what political discourse should be.  The point of political action should not be winning the race (yet it so often is...flash forward 3 months when all our politicians will be focusing on reelection instead of doing their jobs), but on governance.  As a society, we focus so much (exclusively?) on the race and the identity politics that we mostly forget--or are apathetic to--the real business of government.


blipes very true.

yet it moves.  

i suggest that if one approaches the issue as objectively as Louis recommends, that such ethical claims about what 'should be' are irrelevant.  Not in principle, and that is the rub, but in practice.  

At the bottom it really is Root Hog Em All.  Ends justify the means, or at least as soon as the courts and the legislature catch up.  Here's to 4 more years of circus.  I just hope the most ridiculous jokers get in (don't have my mind made up which crowd that is yet) so we can be well entertained and have something to bitch about constructively.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,09:30   

Quote (blipey @ Nov. 04 2008,10:17)
 I find it strange that we congratulate supporters of a particular candidate rather than the candidate themselves.  Personally, I feel there is nothing to congratulate at this time--even as a person who voted for Obama.  Congratulations should come after successful policy has been introduced and instituted--no sure thing on either account.


blipey, I don't think it was babbling at all.  I think you are spot on...the election is the start, not the end.  What they actually do in office is what matters...not what they did to get there.

And I agree, people do focus too much on the race and not what happens afterwards.  That's not to say that people shouldn't celebrate or what not...just that it's not the end-all, be-all.

P.S. - 1400 posts for you and 1776 for Erasmus.  In honor of the country and government he loves so much  ;)


P.P.S. - And now Erasmus comes and ruins my joke  :angry:

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,09:39   

Voting: Mission Accomplished!

Here in Williamston, MI, the polling place was full up at 9:30 AM. We had about a 20 minute wait in line, during which we heard that they had received about 1000 absentee ballots, where they usually have about 300 of those to process. Diane and I had printed off our sample ballots the better to look up the various candidates. This was a good thing, especially for the various judge positions, where no political affiliation is listed. I used the League of Women Voters site, the Lansing Association for Human Rights site, the Michigan Family Forum site (useful as an indication of trouble wherever they endorsed a candidate), and the Gannett Voter Guide site. Diane looked up somewhere that listed people who had received campaign funding from "animal rights" groups. One of those confirmed our likely choice of the opponent, but two of the people we were otherwise inclined to vote for were tainted by that association. We plan on sending them letters stating our opposition to the radical "animal rights" agenda.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,09:53   

I don't get the 1400 reference, unless it was a segue to the 1776 line.  Please help the historically challenged  :O

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,09:56   

Congrats on the voting!

Quick question...

 
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 04 2008,10:39)
Diane looked up somewhere that listed people who had received campaign funding from "animal rights" groups. One of those confirmed our likely choice of the opponent, but two of the people we were otherwise inclined to vote for were tainted by that association. We plan on sending them letters stating our opposition to the radical "animal rights" agenda.


I am bad at detecting sarcasm, but is there a radical "animal rights" agenda in MI?  Something beyond SPCA or Humane Society?

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,09:59   

Quote (blipey @ Nov. 04 2008,10:53)
I don't get the 1400 reference, unless it was a segue to the 1776 line.  Please help the historically challenged  :O

blipey - it was nothing more complex than 'ooo...round natural number!'

I'm pretty easily amused most of the time.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,10:03   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Nov. 04 2008,09:59)
Quote (blipey @ Nov. 04 2008,10:53)
I don't get the 1400 reference, unless it was a segue to the 1776 line.  Please help the historically challenged  :O

blipey - it was nothing more complex than 'ooo...round natural number!'

I'm pretty easily amused most of the time.

A good way to be...ah, amused, that is.  Not easy.  Cue Louis....

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,10:19   

Quote (blipey @ Nov. 04 2008,09:17)
The point of political action should not be winning the race (yet it so often is...flash forward 3 months when all our politicians will be focusing on reelection instead of doing their jobs), but on governance.  As a society, we focus so much (exclusively?) on the race and the identity politics that we mostly forget--or are apathetic to--the real business of government.

Well, that is why, to some extent, we are in the pickle we are in. For the last 8 years, policy and governance have been the handmaidens of politics.  It was the Rovian route to a permanent Republican majority.  Unfortunately, over the last four years in particular, we have learned the hard way that competent governance does matter.

Indeed, I suspect we would have an entirely different race today if McCain hadn't adopted the politics over policy line and brought alot of the Rove machine inside his campaign.  By focusing mostly on attacking Obama without articulating coherent policy alternatives, McCain gave voters no vision of a better future on the other side of our current economic crisis.  Obama may yet turn out to have feet of clay, but at least he gave the voters some idea that he was looking beyond the election.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,10:21   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Nov. 04 2008,09:56)
Congrats on the voting!

Quick question...

   
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 04 2008,10:39)
Diane looked up somewhere that listed people who had received campaign funding from "animal rights" groups. One of those confirmed our likely choice of the opponent, but two of the people we were otherwise inclined to vote for were tainted by that association. We plan on sending them letters stating our opposition to the radical "animal rights" agenda.


I am bad at detecting sarcasm, but is there a radical "animal rights" agenda in MI?  Something beyond SPCA or Humane Society?

The SPCA and the American Humane Association are legitimate animal welfare organizations. I favor animal welfare efforts.

PETA, HSUS, and various other groups are radical animal rights advocates. Their goal is to eliminate all domesticated animals, any used for food, service, or as pets. HSUS is simply sneakier about it than PETA. One of the current wedge issues is passing mandatory spay and neuter laws. The implementation of these impose high burdens on pet owners keeping intact animals, including high annual fees and fines for non-compliance. The intent is to force as many breeders as possible out of business, as well as insuring that individuals breeding the pet animals affected becomes a rarity. The political strategy used by these groups has been unfortunately effective: browbeating and pressure applied to individual lawmakers and their families. I cannot express the contempt I have for these folks.

HSUS came along well after the American Humane Association and created their name with the apparent intent of sowing as much confusion as possible. The AHA was the organization behind the founding and running of many animal shelters around the country, not HSUS. HSUS capitalizes on the ambiguity inherent in their name to undercut charitable giving that would otherwise enrich the legitimate animal welfare organization, the AHA. Please do not confuse the two or perpetuate that confusion in others.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,11:00   

Quote
The SPCA and the American Humane Association are legitimate animal welfare organizations. I favor animal welfare efforts.

PETA, HSUS, and various other groups are radical animal rights advocates. Their goal is to eliminate all domesticated animals, any used for food, service, or as pets. HSUS is simply sneakier about it than PETA. One of the current wedge issues is passing mandatory spay and neuter laws. The implementation of these impose high burdens on pet owners keeping intact animals, including high annual fees and fines for non-compliance. The intent is to force as many breeders as possible out of business, as well as insuring that individuals breeding the pet animals affected becomes a rarity. The political strategy used by these groups has been unfortunately effective: browbeating and pressure applied to individual lawmakers and their families. I cannot express the contempt I have for these folks.

HSUS came along well after the American Humane Association and created their name with the apparent intent of sowing as much confusion as possible. The AHA was the organization behind the founding and running of many animal shelters around the country, not HSUS. HSUS capitalizes on the ambiguity inherent in their name to undercut charitable giving that would otherwise enrich the legitimate animal welfare organization, the AHA. Please do not confuse the two or perpetuate that confusion in others.


I wasn't trying to confuse them, I just honestly didn't know if there was a specific group that was big in Michigan or if it was something else.

I also referenced the SPCA and HSUS because sometimes people use 'animal rights' and 'animal welfare' interchangeably.  I mostly associate them with shelters, as those are the two main groups in my area that run them.  I'm not sure how much statewide and local Humane Society is associated with national level stuff.  Their local actions surely aren't that extreme, although that may be your point.

Also, being in Pennsylvania, there is a great deal of discussion and debate about puppy breeding vs. puppy mills and what not, so I'm not always sure what people mean by animal rights and animal welfare.  Different groups seem to interpret it differently.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,11:14   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 04 2008,06:48)
The writing is on the wall. In case I'm not up when it becomes official (I go to bed early) congrats to all the Obama supporters.

Heddle, don't worry. When Obama starts rounding up Christians to lock them up in collective madrassah farms next year, I promise I'll put in a good word for you. You'll get light duty, I promise.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,11:16   

Voted. Light rain, cool breeze, about 50 people in line when I got there. Took about a half hour.

Drove past on my way back from Spanish class, about 10 people in line.

No campaigners evident near the polls either time.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,11:48   

I voted on 24 October (Ohio).  I don't think I'll turn on the TV or radio today.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
ppb



Posts: 325
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,11:49   

I voted this morning at 8:00.  No long lines here in my part of the great blue northeast.  My daughter voted this morning in Philadelphia, getting in line at 6:30 to be one of the first.  She was very excited to be in a battleground state.  She felt her vote really mattered, and she was  happy to have a choice she could be enthusiastic about. (Obama, naturally!)

Me too.

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"[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."
- Richard P. Feynman

  
EyeNoU



Posts: 115
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,12:04   

Voted last week(Texas). I need to call my daughter, she voted in the primary, hopefully she carried it through and voted(or will vote) sometime today.

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,12:06   

Spottedwind:
Quote
I also referenced the SPCA and HSUS because sometimes people use 'animal rights' and 'animal welfare' interchangeably.  I mostly associate them with shelters, as those are the two main groups in my area that run them.


HSUS does not run animal shelters to my knowledge.   Not one. The AHA does.  Are you sure you are not confusing the two ?

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,12:13   

Quote (EyeNoU @ Nov. 04 2008,13:04)
Voted last week(Texas). I need to call my daughter, she voted in the primary, hopefully she carried it through and voted(or will vote) sometime today.

My daughter is very frustrated. She won't be 18 until July.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,12:44   

Quote

I also referenced the SPCA and HSUS because sometimes people use 'animal rights' and 'animal welfare' interchangeably.  I mostly associate them with shelters, as those are the two main groups in my area that run them.


The HSUS is highly unlikely to be running an animal shelter in your area. While I'm not certain that the number of HSUS-run shelters is zero, as Tracy asserts, I am confident that it is close to zero. The HSUS loves to give the impression that the good work done at the local level in animal welfare somehow accrues merit to them. Look at the artfully-worded page here. These folks are absolutely shameless.

I've had my say about HSUS and "animal rights" groups on my blog. From a recent post there:

Quote

I’ve noted before the problem of animal rights groups feeding off legitimate concerns of animal welfare:

   This isn’t to say that the fakes haven’t gotten on the bandwagon of pushing legitimate reforms already suggested by animal welfare advocates. But their participation is best considered a form of crypsis, since they have an agenda that goes far beyond the laudable aims of animal welfare.

   Support animal welfare. Don’t get conned by animal rights groups trying to disguise themselves as animal welfare advocates.


Essentially, the radical animal rights groups appear to be implementing a plan to become the only voices for animal welfare, though their aims go much further than those of legitimate animal welfare groups. The radical animal rights groups want an end to any human “exploitation” of animals, and that includes pet ownership and the extinction of domesticated animal species, as well as any take of wild animals for any reason. Eating meat is right out. Hunting and fishing are targets. Biomedical research using animal models would be history. However, selling the general public on those goals is not a public relations winner right now. How would Meijer, Inc. care to contemplate a grocery store without milk, butter, eggs, meat, fish, or any other animal-based product? How would Meijer customers take it? That’s right, no sale. On the other hand, animal welfare is an incredibly popular idea and causes people to open up their wallets for charitable giving. There’s only some much money in the animal welfare charitable giving pot, though, and those pesky folks running the local animal shelters and the AHA as the national organization for them are soaking up quite a bit of that money. If, though, a radical animal rights group spends enough money on a public relations campaign to “own” some particular animal welfare issue, they can get most of the money that gets donated by people interested in that cause, say shutting down puppy mills or, as in current events, aiding pet owners in financial straits. That money does not go to the local shelter or the AHA, and they are able to do less in making progress on those animal welfare concerns, making them appear less effective than the disguised radical animal rights groups, causing a further shift in charitable giving toward the radicals.

Many of the comments following the news item linked at the top take issue with Meijer and those against the donation scheme as unfairly depriving the people at the end of the charitable giving chain, the pet-owning foreclosed, of needed funds. They simply don’t understand how having the cash flow go through a radical animal rights organization is a problem. They note the activism and enthusiasm of these groups for specific animal welfare issues and call it “good, good, good”. The problem is that, just like a legitimate front organization for the Mafia, that’s not all that is going on. If we are going to have our established animal welfare groups, locally and nationally, it is they who need to be able to receive our limited donations, and not the radical animal rights groups who are seeking to displace and silence them.


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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,12:53   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Nov. 04 2008,13:06)

HSUS does not run animal shelters to my knowledge.   Not one. The AHA does.  Are you sure you are not confusing the two ?


And perhaps this is where the confusion comes in.

Looking at PA shelters here many have "humane society" as part of their name.  I'm not sure if all of these are associated with the national group, but I do know that some of them run (or ran) shelters.

In my area, we always referred to the shelters as either the SPCA or the Humane Society, since both ran shelters.  On many of the websites of these places it isn't specifically clear if they are associated with HSUS or the AHA.  They make no statements either way and may not even be associated with either.

So, the HSUS might not run shelters, but we do have groups calling themselves Humane Society that do.  Those groups that I was referring to do not have the radical stances Wes was talking about.

I linked HSUS, thinking they were related, and it seems that is probably an error.  mea culpa.  My interactions with local humane societies have always been positive, and I think my volunteer time post-Katrina was through HSUS, although it might have been SPCA...I can't remember as I applied to both.  Not defending them, just that I had never come across the actions Wes was describing.  But maybe that was because i was dealing with local humane societies or the AHA and not HSUS.

Either way, back to a less contentious subject like politics.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,13:09   

There were loads of local humane societies doing good work in animal welfare a long time before the misleadingly-named "Humane Society of the United States" formed in the mid-1950s. They chose that name apparently specifically to benefit from the good reputation earned by others, and they continue to capitalize on the confusion engendered. If they called themselves "People Who Want Your Pets to Die and for You to Become an Obligate Vegetarian by Force", they wouldn't get nearly the amount of donations they do now. As long as people don't make the distinction between local humane societies doing animal welfare and national con-artists practicing radical animal rights, the latter will continue to profit at the expense of those more deserving groups.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
EyeNoU



Posts: 115
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,13:11   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 04 2008,12:13)
Quote (EyeNoU @ Nov. 04 2008,13:04)
Voted last week(Texas). I need to call my daughter, she voted in the primary, hopefully she carried it through and voted(or will vote) sometime today.

My daughter is very frustrated. She won't be 18 until July.

Mine turned 21 this year. It was her first presidential election. She called to tell me that they (her and her boyfriend) had just voted in the primary earlier this year. It turned out we didn't vote for the same person in the primary, but during the election season, we swapped jokes and cartoons about the candidates.

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,13:22   

I voted last week by mail, but I'll be holding an ethanol-soaked victory party tonight. Arden and Louis will be stripped down, greased up, then tossed into a steel-cage death match for entertainment.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,13:28   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 04 2008,18:13)
Quote (EyeNoU @ Nov. 04 2008,13:04)
Voted last week(Texas). I need to call my daughter, she voted in the primary, hopefully she carried it through and voted(or will vote) sometime today.

My daughter is very frustrated.....

{Eyebrows raise}

Quote
....She won't be 18 until July.


Oh I see this is some kind of electoral issue. My bad. Please continue.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,13:31   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 04 2008,19:22)
I voted last week by mail, but I'll be holding an ethanol-soaked victory party tonight. Arden and Louis will be stripped down, greased up, then tossed into a steel-cage death match for entertainment.

This is a vile lie.

I will in no way be greased up. Due to a slight accident as a baby, involving a turkey baster, 1500L of goose fat, a cross channel swimmer, a banana and a radioactive spider, I produce a particularly friction reducing fluid that is exported to the USA as the fat they fry McDonalds products in. Should I have mentioned that before you had lunch?

Anyway, I hope the puppet on the left wins.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,13:32   

Quote (blipey @ Nov. 04 2008,16:03)
Quote (Spottedwind @ Nov. 04 2008,09:59)
Quote (blipey @ Nov. 04 2008,10:53)
I don't get the 1400 reference, unless it was a segue to the 1776 line.  Please help the historically challenged  :O

blipey - it was nothing more complex than 'ooo...round natural number!'

I'm pretty easily amused most of the time.

A good way to be...ah, amused, that is.  Not easy.  Cue Louis....

Oh now come on. That one is vastly too easy even for me...

Oops I made a pun. Oh well, it looks like I can't make it through without a quip, no matter how bad.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,13:35   

I am off to the polls. I am a local poll watcher and precinct captain.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,13:43   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 04 2008,13:22)
I voted last week by mail, but I'll be holding an ethanol-soaked victory party tonight. Arden and Louis will be stripped down, greased up, then tossed into a steel-cage death match for entertainment.

Ahh, I am guessing you will be having Ghost of Paley over. That seems like his kinda thing.

As for me, my wife and I voted by in person absentee ballot at the Cleveland County Election Board in downtown Norman on Saturday. We arrived at 8:00AM, right as the doors were opening, but had to walk 2/3 of a block north, a full block east, and about 3/4 of a block south to find the end of the line. We had to wait 2 and a half hours for our chance to vote, but had a good time talking to the folks in line with us.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,14:42   

**Prediction**

Faux Noose will have a live report from Ramallah, Gaza, Tehran, or some such place to show the muslamian trrrists celebrating their guy's victory, preferably by firing AK47s into the air.

Fair and Balanced

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,15:12   

Quote (Louis @ Nov. 04 2008,11:31)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 04 2008,19:22)
I voted last week by mail, but I'll be holding an ethanol-soaked victory party tonight. Arden and Louis will be stripped down, greased up, then tossed into a steel-cage death match for entertainment.

This is a vile lie.

I will in no way be greased up. Due to a slight accident as a baby, involving a turkey baster, 1500L of goose fat, a cross channel swimmer, a banana and a radioactive spider, I produce a particularly friction reducing fluid that is exported to the USA as the fat they fry McDonalds products in. Should I have mentioned that before you had lunch?

Anyway, I hope the puppet on the left wins.

Louis

You're forgetting, Louis is Turkish. He's naturally 'greased up'.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
EyeNoU



Posts: 115
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,15:29   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 04 2008,11:14)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 04 2008,06:48)
The writing is on the wall. In case I'm not up when it becomes official (I go to bed early) congrats to all the Obama supporters.

Heddle, don't worry. When Obama starts rounding up Christians to lock them up in collective madrassah farms next year, I promise I'll put in a good word for you. You'll get light duty, I promise.

Maybe you can get him a job on the chow line. He can give Sarah Palin two ladlefuls of gruel when she comes through.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,15:36   

who wouldn't want to do that?  i dunno.  sounds hawt.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,16:04   

Quote (EyeNoU @ Nov. 04 2008,13:29)
He can give Sarah Palin two ladlefuls of gruel when she comes through.

I've never heard it called that before.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,17:12   

Heddle's worst nightmare, continued.

Why football is like Obama.

Quote
And then, of course, there's still the lingering suspicion that soccer is somehow not part of the "real America". That's a phrase we've heard a lot this past few weeks, from the prim, smirking, well-lipsticked lips of Republican attack dogs such as Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman.

The Republicans are at a loss. They keep punching the "real America", "small town", "psst, he's black" buttons but nothing happens. Because real America has moved on. They sip lattes on Main Street. They like to think they're colour-blind. And godamn it they've been chowing down on arugla in the Midwest for decades (only they called it "rocket", who knew?). And, of course, their kids all play soccer.


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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,17:30   

I voted. It was a little surreal. I've never voted on an actual piece of paper before. It took maybe 4 minutes, and a lot of that was my being paranoid that I was missing something. There were three other voters in the room and four helpers (who all looked like they might regard McCain as a young whipper-snapper).

The somewhat disturbing part is that in this little town they don't scan them in front of you. I put mine in a box and it will be scanned later. So I have to just trust the system to actually work. Part of me would rather have a potentially corrupt machine than have to rely on Aunt Bea to take mine out and scan it.

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,17:36   

Mr. Heddle: Something to get you through the day --




Your Friend, deadman_932

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,17:43   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 04 2008,15:12)
 
Quote (Louis @ Nov. 04 2008,11:31)
 
Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 04 2008,19:22)
I voted last week by mail, but I'll be holding an ethanol-soaked victory party tonight. Arden and Louis will be stripped down, greased up, then tossed into a steel-cage death match for entertainment.

This is a vile lie.

I will in no way be greased up. Due to a slight accident as a baby, involving a turkey baster, 1500L of goose fat, a cross channel swimmer, a banana and a radioactive spider, I produce a particularly friction reducing fluid that is exported to the USA as the fat they fry McDonalds products in. Should I have mentioned that before you had lunch?

Anyway, I hope the puppet on the left wins.

Louis

You're forgetting, Louis is Turkish. He's naturally 'greased up'.

??? I thought Louis was Greek, and therefore more of a potential threat in *cough* shock and ow combat or rearguard actions. GoP would be all excited.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,18:11   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 04 2008,17:36)
Mr. Heddle: Something to get you through the day --

<snip pictures>

Your Friend, deadman_932

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,19:55   

Elizabeth Dole apparently lost in NC, so one can be happy that her atheist-bashing was ineffective.

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,20:37   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 04 2008,19:55)
Elizabeth Dole apparently lost in NC, so one can be happy that her atheist-bashing was ineffective.

But even if you were to think that atheist bashing would be effective, you should probably make sure you're bashing actual atheists.  You know, instead of Sunday school teachers....

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,20:55   

I'm always glad to see hateful bigots lose.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,21:00   

Obama has now won Pennsylvania and Ohio. The cake is baked.

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,21:09   

Iowa for Obama.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,21:10   

Well the election seems to be going Obama's way although by Cricky, I like the way the networks call the results for a state when only a couple of percent of the vote is counted.

  
The Wayward Hammer



Posts: 64
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,21:39   

I told friends at work that if Obama won Penn by 8 points, then it was over.  He's leading by 17 right now - although the rural counties will move it closer.

Dole disappointed me more than almost any candidate I have ever followed.  She deserved to lose.  Badly.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,21:52   

Quote (bystander @ Nov. 04 2008,21:10)
Well the election seems to be going Obama's way although by Cricky, I like the way the networks call the results for a state when only a couple of percent of the vote is counted.

They called Vermont before a single vote was counted.

Aside: if Blitzer says, "We're doing the math for you" one more time, I'm going to punch him.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,22:02   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Nov. 04 2008,18:11)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 04 2008,17:36)
Mr. Heddle: Something to get you through the day --

<snip pictures>

Your Friend, deadman_932

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

why?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,22:23   

Lewdies and gropenmens, I give you the 44th president of the United States: Barack Obama.

p.s., Texas Teach: You should see the other photoshops I could've posted, including the "Palin: No More Bush" one... Hawt! Okay, truthfully, I can't find her very attractive when she's not too bright. Smart = sexah , for me. Her jeans-encased bootay was sloshing around when they showed her voting, though.

edit: I'm watching McCain's concession speech, and I have to admire his decency in that. Good show, there.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,22:28   

linky?

intelligence in beautiful women that you will never meet is vastly overrated.  perhaps only in that instance though.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,22:29   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 04 2008,23:23)
Lewdies and gropenmens, I give you the 44th president of the United States: Barack Obama.

p.s., Texas Teach: You should see the other photoshops I could've posted, including the "Palin: No More Bush" one... Hawt! Okay, truthfully, I can't find her very attractive when she's not too bright. Smart = sexah , for me. Her jeans-encased bootay was sloshing around when they showed her voting, though.

edit: I'm watching McCain's concession speech, and I have to admire his decency in that. Good show, there.

Yes I am rather impressed.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,22:38   

Quote (khan @ Nov. 04 2008,23:29)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 04 2008,23:23)
Lewdies and gropenmens, I give you the 44th president of the United States: Barack Obama.

p.s., Texas Teach: You should see the other photoshops I could've posted, including the "Palin: No More Bush" one... Hawt! Okay, truthfully, I can't find her very attractive when she's not too bright. Smart = sexah , for me. Her jeans-encased bootay was sloshing around when they showed her voting, though.

edit: I'm watching McCain's concession speech, and I have to admire his decency in that. Good show, there.

Yes I am rather impressed.

Where was that guy the last six months?

He might have won.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
EyeNoU



Posts: 115
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,22:45   

I guess since I live in Texas, my vote will cancel out the one cast by DaveScot over at UD.

Write that down.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,22:48   

As ugly as the campaign was, McCain's concession speech was very honorable. Kudos for that.

   
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2008,23:02   

8:55 pm Pacific Time, listening to Fox News, and......

two consecutive ads bashing Obama. "Who is Barack Obama?" etc, etc.... "I'm John McCain and I approved this message."

When did the election get called, an hour ago? McCain conceded graciously, what, 15 minutes ago?

But they're still planning that comeback!

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,02:07   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Nov. 05 2008,02:11)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 04 2008,17:36)
Mr. Heddle: Something to get you through the day --

<snip pictures>

Your Friend, deadman_932

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

wow has Palin spoilt everything for tit lovers?

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1552
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,03:03   

Well, that's a relief!!!

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,04:15   

I tried to do an election marathon last night. Since it's GMT+1 here, it was veeeeery late. I broke down at 3:00. Damn you America...
Glad to see Obama becoming president when I woke up like half an hour ago. But I immediatly thought: Obama's f*cked now. Loooooots of people will be dissapointed during his presidency, you can be sure of that. I think he simply cannot live up to it. And that's not even Obama's fault, that's simply how the system works. And if Palin runs in 2012...God forbid.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,05:01   

An Irish Times journalist tells a story in his memoirs about about an editorial conference the day after a general election. The paper had opposed the previous government for years and the voters had finally thrown them out. Cheers all round.

Douglas Gageby, the editor, asked the neophyte journalist what they should say about the new coalition as it took power.

"How about 'It is long past time that this incompetent and corrupt administration was ejected from office'"?

"You'll go far in this business, m'boy"

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,06:05   

Quote (Assassinator @ Nov. 05 2008,04:15)
I tried to do an election marathon last night. Since it's GMT+1 here, it was veeeeery late. I broke down at 3:00. Damn you America...
Glad to see Obama becoming president when I woke up like half an hour ago. I immediatly thought: Obama's f*cked now. Loooooots of people will be dissapointed during his presidency, you can be sure of that. I think he simply cannot live up to it. And that's not even Obama's fault, that's simply how the system works. And if Palin runs in 2012...God forbid.

Whether people bcome disappointed with Obama depends on what they expect.

Ammendments passed in Florida and California banning same sex marriages. A proposition failed in California that would have substituted treatment for prison for some drug users. WTF?

In Florida, two ammendments passed banning some increases in property taxes.

It will be interesting to see how many of Obama's policies actually have majority support.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,06:11   

i been all around the world, same song



--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,06:29   

Just got to the lab from the gym. (When I left the gym, I noticed the sun had risen.) Usually I'm just about the only one on our wing of the lab's main office building at 7:00 am. I met a good friend, an extremely talented Moroccan physicist, a woman. She was sooo happy and told me she'd been crying. She asked me how I felt--knowing who I voted for (though we never discussed it.) I told her it was hard not to be happy at the history that had been made.

She startled me with almost the exact comment I made on here or Brayton's blog--that this could happen only in America. She used two of the same examples--she could not imagine a Moroccan leading France or a Turk in Germany.

Congratulations America.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,06:44   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Oct. 30 2008,09:07)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 30 2008,01:31)
one of the good things about the election is we should know the results fairly quickly, assuming Obama wins. The polls in Ohio, Florida, Virginia, and Pennsylvania all close by 8 pm EST. If Obama has, say, Virginia, or Florida, and Pennsylvania, then McCain is toast.

I know PA polls and others have Obama up by quite a bit on McCain, but being a Pennsylvanian...I don't know.  I don't see it.  Perhaps it's pessimism, but I wouldn't count PA in Obama's column until you see it.  I think it will be a lot closer than polls are showing here.  Pennsyltucky is more accurate in describing the state than most would like to admit.  There's a robust mix of racism and anti-liberal that isn't seen much because people only ever focus on Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

The caveat to all of this is that I am often wrong, so perhaps it's a good sign I feel this way.

I've never been so happy to be so wrong.

McCain ( R ) 44% 2,584,063
Obama ( D ) 55% 3,184,621



I agree about the concession speech...that's the McCain I had respected.  Where has he been?

Happy with the results, but also happy to be done with this part.

And now...back to science.

  
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,08:41   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2008,06:29)
She startled me with almost the exact comment I made on here or Brayton's blog--that this could happen only in America. She used two of the same examples--she could not imagine a Moroccan leading France or a Turk in Germany.

Blacks have been in the US since well before it was the US. Turks have been in Germany and Moroccans have been in France for less than 50 years. People considered black constitute about 30% of the US population (IIRC). Turks and Moroccans constitute something under 5% of the population of Germany and France.

A more reasonable comparison might be to compare the chance of having Turks or Moroccan leaders to the likelihood of the US having a Chinese president.

Having said that, quite apart from expecting him to do a much more competent job than McCain could ever have done, with policies more to my taste, I see it as a hopeful sign that he has been elected.

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All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,08:50   

Quote (Richard Simons @ Nov. 05 2008,06:41)
People considered black constitute about 30% of the US population (IIRC).

Actually, I think the real number is like ~12%.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,10:59   

Quote (Alan Fox @ Nov. 05 2008,02:03)
Well, that's a relief!!!

Yeah, we can haz relief now.

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,11:57   

When Obama gave his acceptance speech I thought the closing statement including a paraphrase of the original national motto was very nice.  I could almost make myself believe he was winking at secularists everywhere when he wrote it.

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
RupertG



Posts: 80
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,12:22   

Managed to stay up for Obama's victory speech, but that was about it. My compadre keeled over at around half past three, thus missing the West Coast declarations that finished things off. Not complaining: the plates of pretzels and bottle of Jack (seemed appropriate) had more stamina that way.

Don't think I've met a British McCain supporter, even among my Tory pals. Everyone, but everyone, is smiling like a loon today. Even Prop 8 can't piss us off too much; stupid thing, but now Obama can make sure the Supremes don't end up top-loaded with Bushies for a generation, so I can't see homophobia winning out long-term. (As an aside, I used to think that the 'civil partnership' laws in the UK, which give same-sex couples all the rights of marriage but not the name, were a patronising compromise; having seen how easily and uncontroversially they've been accepted by everyone, I'm pretty sure that in time, even that legal differential will be quietly erased. It's been a pretty clever intermediate step. A lesbian government minister 'married' her partner last month, and as far as I know it was reported entirely positively, even by our rabidly reactionary right-wing press, and generated no negative public comment whatsoever.)

Perhaps it was Mr Daniels at work, or the 5am time, but when I saw that shot of Jesse Jackson crying, it did for me big time. As Obama said in his speech, there are people voting today who lived through female and black emancipation - and now this.

If you don't feel good about that, you're not 21st century qualified.

--------------
Uncle Joe and Aunty Mabel
Fainted at the breakfast table
Children, let this be a warning
Never do it in the morning -- Ralph Vaughan Williams

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,12:28   

The Onion, once again, nails it:

 
Quote
Black Man Given Nation's Worst Job
November 5, 2008 | Issue 44•45

WASHINGTON—African-American man Barack Obama, 47, was given the least-desirable job in the entire country Tuesday when he was elected president of the United States of America. In his new high-stress, low-reward position, Obama will be charged with such tasks as completely overhauling the nation's broken-down economy, repairing the crumbling infrastructure, and generally having to please more than 300 million Americans and cater to their every whim on a daily basis. As part of his duties, the black man will have to spend four to eight years cleaning up the messes other people left behind. The job comes with such intense scrutiny and so certain a guarantee of failure that only one other person even bothered applying for it. Said scholar and activist Mark L. Denton, "It just goes to show you that, in this country, a black man still can't catch a break."


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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,12:38   

Quote (khan @ Nov. 04 2008,22:29)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 04 2008,23:23)
Lewdies and gropenmens, I give you the 44th president of the United States: Barack Obama.

p.s., Texas Teach: You should see the other photoshops I could've posted, including the "Palin: No More Bush" one... Hawt! Okay, truthfully, I can't find her very attractive when she's not too bright. Smart = sexah , for me. Her jeans-encased bootay was sloshing around when they showed her voting, though.

edit: I'm watching McCain's concession speech, and I have to admire his decency in that. Good show, there.

Yes I am rather impressed.

McCain's speech was very well done.  Sounds like he has been working on it for weeks.  :)

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,12:43   

Quote (Richard Simons @ Nov. 05 2008,08:41)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2008,06:29)
She startled me with almost the exact comment I made on here or Brayton's blog--that this could happen only in America. She used two of the same examples--she could not imagine a Moroccan leading France or a Turk in Germany.

Blacks have been in the US since well before it was the US. Turks have been in Germany and Moroccans have been in France for less than 50 years.

Ah, yes.  I remember studying about the Africans who emigrated to the US for jobs, just like the Turks into Germany, or the Moroccans into France.  :O

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,12:48   

Steve's nowhere to be seen today? His hangover this morning must totally debilitating.  ;)

"AGGGGGHHHHHH!! CLOSE THOSE GODDAMN CURTAINS!! ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL ME?"

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,13:15   

The Onion also nails it in this article.

Quote

As we enter a new era of equality for all people, the election of Barack Obama will decidedly be a milestone in U.S. history, undeniable proof that Americans, when pushed to the very brink, are willing to look past outward appearances and judge a person by the quality of his character and strength of his record. So as long as that person is not a woman.


--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,13:22   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 05 2008,04:23)
Lewdies and gropenmens, I give you the 44th president of the United States: Barack Obama.

p.s., Texas Teach: You should see the other photoshops I could've posted, including the "Palin: No More Bush" one... Hawt! Okay, truthfully, I can't find her very attractive when she's not too bright. Smart = sexah , for me. Her jeans-encased bootay was sloshing around when they showed her voting, though.

edit: I'm watching McCain's concession speech, and I have to admire his decency in that. Good show, there.

McCain's concession speech was GOOD??? Not the one I saw at ~4am as I stayed up to watch the election. What I saw was the cranky old geezer grinding out a sop to bipartisanship whilst pulling a Scooby Doo-esque "I would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for you pesky black voters!".

Mind you, like I said, it was ~4am and compus mentis I was not.

Louis

P.S. Deadman, I AM (half) Greek, Arden thinks it annoys me to call me Turkish, however, I don't suffer from the prejudices of my ancestors so it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I've a whole slew of brand new prejudices to cope with, why inherit worn out ones?

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,13:29   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2008,12:29)
Just got to the lab from the gym. (When I left the gym, I noticed the sun had risen.) Usually I'm just about the only one on our wing of the lab's main office building at 7:00 am. I met a good friend, an extremely talented Moroccan physicist, a woman. She was sooo happy and told me she'd been crying. She asked me how I felt--knowing who I voted for (though we never discussed it.) I told her it was hard not to be happy at the history that had been made.

She startled me with almost the exact comment I made on here or Brayton's blog--that this could happen only in America. She used two of the same examples--she could not imagine a Moroccan leading France or a Turk in Germany.

Congratulations America.

Odious comparisons thy name is, Heddle.

Children of "immigrant races" have been leading European nations on and off over the centuries. Obama is not a foreigner he is a native born American citizen. Count the Jewish first ministers of various nations throughout history for example.

Not only could this NOT only happen in America, it's happened elsewhere with vastly less pomp and effort. Comparing Obama to a Turkish immigrant in Germany is not comparing like with like. Maybe you should get yourself a passport and visit this little place the rest of us like to call "The Rest of The World", it might surprise you.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,14:11   

Yes, we would have said this was impossible, but Ralph Nader is even a bigger asshole than we all thought.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,14:11   

Quote (Louis @ Nov. 05 2008,13:29)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2008,12:29)
Just got to the lab from the gym. (When I left the gym, I noticed the sun had risen.) Usually I'm just about the only one on our wing of the lab's main office building at 7:00 am. I met a good friend, an extremely talented Moroccan physicist, a woman. She was sooo happy and told me she'd been crying. She asked me how I felt--knowing who I voted for (though we never discussed it.) I told her it was hard not to be happy at the history that had been made.

She startled me with almost the exact comment I made on here or Brayton's blog--that this could happen only in America. She used two of the same examples--she could not imagine a Moroccan leading France or a Turk in Germany.

Congratulations America.

Odious comparisons thy name is, Heddle.

Children of "immigrant races" have been leading European nations on and off over the centuries. Obama is not a foreigner he is a native born American citizen. Count the Jewish first ministers of various nations throughout history for example.

Not only could this NOT only happen in America, it's happened elsewhere with vastly less pomp and effort. Comparing Obama to a Turkish immigrant in Germany is not comparing like with like. Maybe you should get yourself a passport and visit this little place the rest of us like to call "The Rest of The World", it might surprise you.

Louis

Louis you raging imbecile.

You will note in this case the comparison, though similar to one I have made in the past, comes from a Moroccan, a woman, Muslim, a scientist, an Obama supporter, and who, by the way, did her Ph.D. in France. She is now fairly high-ranking here at Jefferson Lab. And of course she wasn't talking about immigrants--the US has had multitudinous presidents one or few generations removed from immigrants--that would hardly be worth mentioning. She was talking about people of color. Her words to me were “only in America.” If she meant “it has only ever happened in America” then she is demonstrably correct—unless you can provide an example of a person of color elected to lead a European nation. If she meant “it could only ever happen in America,” we’ll have to wait to see if she is correct, but so far the hypothesis fits the data.

When someone of color leads a European nation, or when you say something intelligent, whichever comes first, you can take the high ground. Prior to that—get lost. You bore me to tears with your pusillanimous, self-righteous, inchoate hissy-fits.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,14:27   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2008,14:11)
Quote (Louis @ Nov. 05 2008,13:29)

Odious comparisons thy name is, Heddle.

When someone of color leads a European nation, or when you say something intelligent, whichever comes first, you can take the high ground. Prior to that—get lost. You bore me to tears with your pusillanimous, self-righteous, inchoate hissy-fits.

Well, it isn't the same as a tard outbreak over at UD, but it will have to do.



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,14:40   

rofl.  arguing about the color of the face of the avatar.  which one is which?  i can't tell.

the real leaders are not publicly visible.  probably because they hang upside down on roosts during the day.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,14:53   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 05 2008,12:27)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2008,14:11)
 
Quote (Louis @ Nov. 05 2008,13:29)

Odious comparisons thy name is, Heddle.

When someone of color leads a European nation, or when you say something intelligent, whichever comes first, you can take the high ground. Prior to that—get lost. You bore me to tears with your pusillanimous, self-righteous, inchoate hissy-fits.

Well, it isn't the same as a tard outbreak over at UD, but it will have to do.


Definitely Heddle on the left and Louis on the right.

Don't ask me how I know that, but you know it's true.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,14:56   

Quote (Louis @ Nov. 05 2008,13:22)
 
Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 05 2008,04:23)
Lewdies and gropenmens, I give you the 44th president of the United States: Barack Obama.

p.s., Texas Teach: You should see the other photoshops I could've posted, including the "Palin: No More Bush" one... Hawt! Okay, truthfully, I can't find her very attractive when she's not too bright. Smart = sexah , for me. Her jeans-encased bootay was sloshing around when they showed her voting, though.

edit: I'm watching McCain's concession speech, and I have to admire his decency in that. Good show, there.

McCain's concession speech was GOOD??? Not the one I saw at ~4am as I stayed up to watch the election. What I saw was the cranky old geezer grinding out a sop to bipartisanship whilst pulling a Scooby Doo-esque "I would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for you pesky black voters!".

Mind you, like I said, it was ~4am and compus mentis I was not.

Louis

P.S. Deadman, I AM (half) Greek, Arden thinks it annoys me to call me Turkish, however, I don't suffer from the prejudices of my ancestors so it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I've a whole slew of brand new prejudices to cope with, why inherit worn out ones?

McCains speech as odious? FFS, it was the most gracious losing speech I have ever seen.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1....025.stm

Don't get me wrong. Obama made a better acceptance speech. But he is a Harvard law school graduate. That is to be expected.

McCains speech was good.

I am hoping that this is a change in USA politics. It is only hope though. We might have an idea in about a year "inshalah!""


EDIT: Ooops. Sorry Louis, I think that I F,ckd up there. Read too many posts and got confused, again. Sorry.

Anyway. Watched both speeches live and liked them both.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,15:09   

The graciousness of McCain's concession actually kind of startled me, too. Almost made me feel sorry for the guy.* I think he wanted to close out his career on a more upbeat note than being the asshole who spent 3 months calling Obama a socialist terrorist. His audience wasn't all on board, tho. They booed very loudly the first couple times he mentioned Obama's name.

I don't think Caribou Barbie has made any kind of statement, tho. Alaska just re-elected senator Stevens even though he's now a convicted felon facing possible jail time. So of course they're talking about Palin running for his seat after the Senate kicks him out next month.

*Almost.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,15:15   

Quote
So of course they're talking about Palin running for his seat after the Senate kicks him out next month.

What, she'd rather be a senator than a governor for the next couple of years?

Henry

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,15:20   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2008,13:15)
Quote
So of course they're talking about Palin running for his seat after the Senate kicks him out next month.

What, she'd rather be a senator than a governor for the next couple of years?

Henry

I think the premise is that this would make her look more, uh, 'presidential' for 2012, and remedy her woeful ignorance of the world outside the Mat-su Valley.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,15:23   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 05 2008,15:09)
The graciousness of McCain's concession actually kind of startled me, too. Almost made me feel sorry for the guy.* I think he wanted to close out his career on a more upbeat note than being the asshole who spent 3 months calling Obama a socialist terrorist. His audience wasn't all on board, tho. They booed very loudly the first couple times he mentioned Obama's name.

I don't think Caribou Barbie has made any kind of statement, tho. Alaska just re-elected senator Stevens even though he's now a convicted felon facing possible jail time. So of course they're talking about Palin running for his seat after the Senate kicks him out next month.

*Almost.

A few weeks ago I got the impression that McCain made the mistake of following his parties election strategy rather than just doing his own thing.

I reckon that McCain is a decent guy and should have followed his instincts rather than pander to the people that his advisers considered their core.

Too late now. Anyway I like Obama and just hope he can realise his potential. Obama has united an unlikely group of people. Good luck to him.

We do live in interesting times. A curse according to some, but a blessing according to me.

In my lifetime I have seen America move from segregation to electing a mixed race president. Fascinating. Good luck!

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,15:25   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 05 2008,13:20)
Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2008,13:15)
 
Quote
So of course they're talking about Palin running for his seat after the Senate kicks him out next month.

What, she'd rather be a senator than a governor for the next couple of years?

Henry

I think the premise is that this would make her look more, uh, 'presidential' for 2012, and remedy her woeful ignorance of the world outside the Mat-su Valley.

So what does she do when Dubya pardons Uncle Ted?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,15:37   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Nov. 05 2008,16:23)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 05 2008,15:09)
The graciousness of McCain's concession actually kind of startled me, too. Almost made me feel sorry for the guy.* I think he wanted to close out his career on a more upbeat note than being the asshole who spent 3 months calling Obama a socialist terrorist. His audience wasn't all on board, tho. They booed very loudly the first couple times he mentioned Obama's name.

I don't think Caribou Barbie has made any kind of statement, tho. Alaska just re-elected senator Stevens even though he's now a convicted felon facing possible jail time. So of course they're talking about Palin running for his seat after the Senate kicks him out next month.

*Almost.

A few weeks ago I got the impression that McCain made the mistake of following his parties election strategy rather than just doing his own thing.

I reckon that McCain is a decent guy and should have followed his instincts rather than pander to the people that his advisers considered their core.

Too late now. Anyway I like Obama and just hope he can realise his potential. Obama has united an unlikely group of people. Good luck to him.

We do live in interesting times. A curse according to some, but a blessing according to me.

In my lifetime I have seen America move from segregation to electing a mixed race president. Fascinating. Good luck!

It's a slippery slope: give them the right to vote, ~50 years later one of them gets to be president.
/sarcasm

I worked with the Obama campaign, and the competence exhibited on all levels gives me hope for his administration.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,16:17   

The election reports from the Kansas State Board of Education are mixed, but overall they are encouraging.

The non-whackos now outnumber the creationist loons 7-3, so Texas will be able to keep the spotlight for a while. The only downer (and it is a big one!) is in the district where I live (District 6), where the creationist loon, Kathy Martin, won re-election after a sleazy whispering campaign against her opponent, who happened to be homosexual. He's been open about that for decades, but the rethuglicans waited until the last week of the campaign to make it an issue...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,16:23   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Nov. 05 2008,16:17)
The election reports from the Kansas State Board of Education are mixed, but overall they are encouraging.

The non-whackos now outnumber the creationist loons 7-3, so Texas will be able to keep the spotlight for a while. The only downer (and it is a big one!) is in the district where I live (District 6), where the creationist loon, Kathy Martin, won re-election after a sleazy whispering campaign against her opponent, who happened to be homosexual. He's been open about that for decades, but the rethuglicans waited until the last week of the campaign to make it an issue...

There must be a lot more Fred Phelps fans than we realized in your neck of the prairie, Alb.

We didn't get the 8-2 majority we were hoping for, but it didn't go 5-5 as it could have!

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,16:27   

Quote (csadams @ Nov. 05 2008,16:23)
There must be a lot more Fred Phelps fans than we realized in your neck of the prairie, Alb.

We didn't get the 8-2 majority we were hoping for, but it didn't go 5-5 as it could have!

At least the county where I live (Riley) voted for Renner over Martin, so I feel good about my neighbors.

The killer, as far as I can tell, was Saline County. Did they open a branch office of the Westboro Baptist Church out there?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,16:52   

Graph showing the shift in voting since 2004:



--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,17:07   

Quote (Nerull @ Nov. 05 2008,16:52)
Graph showing the shift in voting since 2004:


Dang!  Kansas looks bad enough, but I guess I'm not moving to Arkansas anytime soon!

What's up with that? The '04 election didn't have any Arkansas governors in the race...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,17:49   

He looks so depressed.



--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,17:51   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Nov. 06 2008,03:23)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 05 2008,15:09)
The graciousness of McCain's concession actually kind of startled me, too. Almost made me feel sorry for the guy.* I think he wanted to close out his career on a more upbeat note than being the asshole who spent 3 months calling Obama a socialist terrorist. His audience wasn't all on board, tho. They booed very loudly the first couple times he mentioned Obama's name.

I don't think Caribou Barbie has made any kind of statement, tho. Alaska just re-elected senator Stevens even though he's now a convicted felon facing possible jail time. So of course they're talking about Palin running for his seat after the Senate kicks him out next month.

*Almost.

A few weeks ago I got the impression that McCain made the mistake of following his parties election strategy rather than just doing his own thing.

I reckon that McCain is a decent guy and should have followed his instincts rather than pander to the people that his advisers considered their core.

Too late now. Anyway I like Obama and just hope he can realise his potential. Obama has united an unlikely group of people. Good luck to him.

We do live in interesting times. A curse according to some, but a blessing according to me.

In my lifetime I have seen America move from segregation to electing a mixed race president. Fascinating. Good luck!

I was thinking the same thing about McCain. If you look at the popular vote he still got 48% even with the media loving Obama.

The social conservatives remembered what he was like and didn't want to vote for him (although Palin got these voters back). The moderates were listening to what the party was making him say now and didn't want to vote for him.

What you would have to figure out is that if he hadn't picked Palin and kept true to himself, would he have picked up enough moderates to make up for the conservatives who wouldn't have voted.

This Slate article is good and reflects what I saw on Michelle Malkin's blog last night. The fault lies either outside the party or because McCain wasn't like them.

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,18:39   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Nov. 05 2008,17:07)
Quote (Nerull @ Nov. 05 2008,16:52)
Graph showing the shift in voting since 2004:


Dang!  Kansas looks bad enough, but I guess I'm not moving to Arkansas anytime soon!

What's up with that? The '04 election didn't have any Arkansas governors in the race...

Can anyone find the source of that graph?  DK dude just linked to the NYT website  ???

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,19:38   

I saw it referenced to the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/

Two varients at DailyKos that are linked to the Times:
http://www.dailykos.com/images/user/28416/map1.jpg

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,19:57   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Nov. 05 2008,19:38)
I saw it referenced to the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/

Two varients at DailyKos that are linked to the Times:
http://www.dailykos.com/images/user/28416/map1.jpg

LOL I know that!  I wanted to see the source and bigger pics :)  Those maps are itty bitty.

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,20:30   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Nov. 05 2008,17:07)
 
Quote (Nerull @ Nov. 05 2008,16:52)
Graph showing the shift in voting since 2004:


Dang!  Kansas looks bad enough, but I guess I'm not moving to Arkansas anytime soon!

What's up with that? The '04 election didn't have any Arkansas governors in the race...

Having grown up in Little Rock and voted for Clinton a handful of days after my 18th birthday (I still remember sneaking out of school with some friends to go see him announce he was running), I can make some guesses:

Some racism, but mostly as a reinforcer of biases against Democrats.  Lots of fundamentalists who believe that Obama means gay marriages and abortions.  And the appeal of Palin as a kindred spirit.  Politically, Arkansas had been electing more social conservatives since just after Bill left. Thus, Huckabee (who actually painted himself more moderately when he got bigger hopes).

Note the little blip in the center?  That's Little Rock. The lighter northwest corner is interesting because it shows that the balance of the UofA against the heavy Klan areas in the hills.  The light spot next to Tennessee is West Memphis, the delta, and the heavy African-American population there.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
EyeNoU



Posts: 115
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,20:35   

Quote (Nerull @ Nov. 05 2008,17:49)
He looks so depressed.


You think he's depressed? He's my congressman......

  
Gunthernacus



Posts: 235
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,20:36   

Some juicy gossip about Palin over at Newsweek:

   
Quote
An angry aide characterized the shopping spree as "Wasilla hillbillies looting Neiman Marcus from coast to coast," and said the truth will eventually come out when the Republican Party audits its books.

Of course we can expect all sorts of non-story, petty, backbiting little thin....HOLY SHIT!!!

Palin Didn't Know Africa Is A Continent

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Given that we are all descended from Adam and Eve...genetic defects as a result of intra-family marriage would not begin to crop up until after the first few dozen generations. - Dr. Hugh Ross

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,22:54   

Quote (Gunthernacus @ Nov. 05 2008,21:36)
Palin Didn't Know Africa Is A Continent

Quote
Cameron relates how McCain aides were terrified of Palin's lack of knowledge of international and national issues, and even basic civics. Cameron reports that Palin was unfamiliar with the concept of "American exceptionalism," and that not only did she not understand that Africa was a continent rather than a single country but also that during debate prep Palin was unable to name all the nations in North America.

Palin was apparently a nightmare for her campaign staff to deal with. She refused preparation help for her interview with Katie Couric and then blamed her staff, specifically Nicole Wallace, when the interview was rightly panned as a disaster. After the Couric interview, Palin turned nasty with her staff and began to accuse them of mishandling her. Palin would view press clippings of herself in the morning and throw "tantrums" over the negative coverage. There were times when she would be so nasty and angry that her staff was reduced to tears.


Wow. But you know, it's perfect. The GOP already does sex ed denial, evolution denial, global warming denial, might as well add geography denial.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,23:21   

At least one McCain aide learned something:

Quote

McCain himself rarely spoke to Palin during the campaign, and aides kept him in the dark about the details of her spending on clothes because they were sure he would be offended. Palin asked to speak along with McCain at his Arizona concession speech Tuesday night, but campaign strategist Steve Schmidt vetoed the request.


--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,23:31   

Hard core right-wingers (Grover Norquist, Brent Bozell, Tony Perkins) are meeting tomorrow to plot strategy.

South Carolina hard core right-winger Katon Dawson is favored to be the new RNC chair.

Palin is considered a rising GOP celebrity, despite being so uninformed that apparently she didn't know Africa was a continent, didn't know what the VP did, couldn't name newspapers she reads, etc.

Moderate GOPers lost yesterday, so the congressional GOPers are more right-wing that before.

Various GOPers have suggested that intemellectuals like David Brooks and Kathleen Parker are no longer welcome in the republican party.

And assorter right-wingers are blaming McCain for being too moderate, not vicious enough etc.

The most important voices on the right are currently Rush, Glenn Beck, and Sean Hannity.

I put all those facts together and add what the Tories went through a decade ago, and think about the numbnuts at the McCain rallies shouting "Terrorist!" and calling obama a muslim arab, and I see the GOP losing whatever crumbs of intelligence remain and just getting totally rabid, concerned with nothing but anti-intellectualism, the bible, beating up on gays, and stopping abortion. They'll get so dumb and crazy they'll even have a hard time winning their natural home, the southeast.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,23:41   

What sucks about recent events is, if the far-right gets complete control, and the GOP just becomes a bunch of unelectable lunatics, the lack of competition will hasten the Democrats' corruption.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2008,23:46   

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-d....ou.html

Fox News's Shep Smith: "How could they end up with a running mate who doesn't know that Africa is a continent?"

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,00:31   

Hint to presidential candidates: your VP pick should at least have a hope of winning on "Are you smarter than a fifth-grader?"

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,01:35   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 05 2008,20:54)
 
Quote (Gunthernacus @ Nov. 05 2008,21:36)
Palin Didn't Know Africa Is A Continent

Quote
Cameron relates how McCain aides were terrified of Palin's lack of knowledge of international and national issues, and even basic civics. Cameron reports that Palin was unfamiliar with the concept of "American exceptionalism," and that not only did she not understand that Africa was a continent rather than a single country but also that during debate prep Palin was unable to name all the nations in North America.

Palin was apparently a nightmare for her campaign staff to deal with. She refused preparation help for her interview with Katie Couric and then blamed her staff, specifically Nicole Wallace, when the interview was rightly panned as a disaster. After the Couric interview, Palin turned nasty with her staff and began to accuse them of mishandling her. Palin would view press clippings of herself in the morning and throw "tantrums" over the negative coverage. There were times when she would be so nasty and angry that her staff was reduced to tears.

Wow. But you know, it's perfect. The GOP already does sex ed denial, evolution denial, global warming denial, might as well add geography denial.

Here's Bill O'Reilly defending Sarah Palin to Carl Cameron:
Quote
Okay, so her frame of reference in history and geography and current events was weak, according to your sources, but she can be tutored, the woman is not a stupid woman, you can tutor people, and you can get people up to speed on the basics of "here's the government, here's the [American] exceptionalism that we're talking about,  here's the world map, here's our interactions", so it's gotta be more than that.

Now try to imagine him saying the same thing in defense of any Democratic candidate for any office above the level of dogcatcher.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,02:21   

The more I hear of Palin, the more I'm reminded of President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho. They called it Idiocracy for a reason.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,02:24   



and if you don't know who this guy is, please, nobody spoil it, just go immediately rent Idiocracy.

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,02:28   

Quote (Louis @ Nov. 05 2008,13:22)
 
Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 05 2008,04:23)
Lewdies and gropenmens, I give you the 44th president of the United States: Barack Obama. [snip]

edit: I'm watching McCain's concession speech, and I have to admire his decency in that. Good show, there.


McCain's concession speech was GOOD??? Not the one I saw at ~4am as I stayed up to watch the election. What I saw was the cranky old geezer grinding out a sop to bipartisanship whilst pulling a Scooby Doo-esque "I would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for you pesky black voters!". Mind you, like I said, it was ~4am and compus mentis I was not.

Louis

P.S. Deadman, I AM (half) Greek, Arden thinks it annoys me to call me Turkish, however, I don't suffer from the prejudices of my ancestors so it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I've a whole slew of brand new prejudices to cope with, why inherit worn out ones?

Louis: Yeah, I thought it was pretty good on the whole. As others have noted, he might've actually won if he'd used that persona during the campaign (and picked a viable co-runner rather than a inflatable toy ).

As for Arden, we all know he's just jealous. He longs to wear a fustanella openly up there in Northern Calif. :


--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,03:13   

Actually, I understand that Gov. Palin is going to take off the next six months or so to finish her book.



It's called The Bridesmaid's Best Man, by Barbara Hannay.




This comment was sponsored by Acme Joke Recycling Inc. No beauty pageant contestants were harmed in the making of this comment

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,06:17   

Quote (ERV @ Nov. 05 2008,19:57)
 
Quote (Dr.GH @ Nov. 05 2008,19:38)
I saw it referenced to the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/

Two varients at DailyKos that are linked to the Times:
http://www.dailykos.com/images/user/28416/map1.jpg

LOL I know that!  I wanted to see the source and bigger pics :)  Those maps are itty bitty.

The source is here.

If you go to slide #14 on this slide show, you can get links to county maps for each state for the 2008 election, but I don't see a way to get bigger versions of the map above.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
KCdgw



Posts: 376
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,08:19   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 05 2008,23:46)
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-d....ou.html

Fox News's Shep Smith: "How could they end up with a running mate who doesn't know that Africa is a continent?"


Color me naive, but I have a hard time believing this is actually true.

Edited by KCdgw on Nov. 06 2008,08:20

--------------
Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,09:00   

Quote (Amadan @ Nov. 06 2008,03:13)
Actually, I understand that Gov. Palin is going to take off the next six months or so to finish her book.



It's called The Bridesmaid's Best Man, by Barbara Hannay.




This comment was sponsored by Acme Joke Recycling Inc. No beauty pageant contestants were harmed in the making of this comment

Cover art for Sarah's book is readily available....though the publisher might be looking for something with towels. (Towels are hawt.)

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,09:32   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 06 2008,00:21)
The more I hear of Palin, the more I'm reminded of President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho.

But on the upside, I hear she's scheduled to make a guest appearance on an upcoming episode of "Ow! My Balls!"

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,09:54   

Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 06 2008,06:19)
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 05 2008,23:46)
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-d....ou.html

Fox News's Shep Smith: "How could they end up with a running mate who doesn't know that Africa is a continent?"


Color me naive, but I have a hard time believing this is actually true.

As fun as all these allegations are, the suddenness of them all really indicates to me that there's a faction within the GOP that views Palin as a rival and is trying to finish her off once and for all, maybe ahead of that "What-the-Fuck-Do-We-Do-Now?" conference they're having this week. Sort of a Night of the Long Knives thing.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,09:55   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Nov. 06 2008,06:17)
 
Quote (ERV @ Nov. 05 2008,19:57)
   
Quote (Dr.GH @ Nov. 05 2008,19:38)
I saw it referenced to the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/

Two varients at DailyKos that are linked to the Times:
http://www.dailykos.com/images/user/28416/map1.jpg

LOL I know that!  I wanted to see the source and bigger pics :)  Those maps are itty bitty.

The source is here.

If you go to slide #14 on this slide show, you can get links to county maps for each state for the 2008 election, but I don't see a way to get bigger versions of the map above.

Here are the bigger maps.

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,10:05   

Quote

As fun as all these allegations are, the suddenness of them all really indicates to me that there's a faction within the GOP that views Palin as a rival and is trying to finish her off once and for all, maybe ahead of that "What-the-Fuck-Do-We-Do-Now?" conference they're having this week. Sort of a Night of the Long Knives thing.


GMTA.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,10:09   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 06 2008,00:28)
As for Arden, we all know he's just jealous. He longs to wear a fustanella openly up there in Northern Calif.

Actually, I heard Louis just got arrested for hanging around the schoolyard and showing children his fustanella.

 
Quote
Doug: It's called America, dude. Learn the rules.
Sidewinder Boss: "Learn the rules?" No, YOU learn the rules. We Greeks invented democracy.
Doug: You also invented homos.
Sidewinder Boss: Fuck you.
Doug: You wish. You gotta buy me dinner first.


(See it here.)

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wheels



Posts: 2
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,10:10   

Quote (bystander @ Nov. 05 2008,17:51)
What you would have to figure out is that if he hadn't picked Palin and kept true to himself, would he have picked up enough moderates to make up for the conservatives who wouldn't have voted.

This Slate article is good and reflects what I saw on Michelle Malkin's blog last night. The fault lies either outside the party or because McCain wasn't like them.

Meh, I didn't find that Slate article very enlightening myself. The problem as I see it is that McCain let his campaign be run too much like "Dubya Bush III" rather than as John McCain. I've thought myself, and seen this thought echoed across the interwebs, that if the John McCain of 2000 were running instead of the 2008 version we saw, it would have been a much closer race and he might have stood a good chance of winning. This sentiment cropped up again right after McCain's concession speech.

This is because the former McCain had more appeal for moderates. I think the moderate vote played at least as much of a role in the Obama victory as the surge in registered voters. But instead of campaigning for moderates, the McCain camp continued the trend of dressing him up in a farther-right costume. It's like he made the most blatant sell-out of his personal integrity for votes I've ever seen.
Instead of calling out Liberty University for promoting religious bigotry and polemics, this McCain gave an address there. Instead of emphasizing his belief that abortion should be available in cases where the health of the mother was at risk, or in cases of rape, this one put "scare quotes" around the health exception. The former McCain was the glimpsed when reassured a woman at his rally that Obama was not somebody to be scared of, he was a good man that had McCain's respect. The new McCain constantly smeared Obama and cast suspicion on him for participating in community betterment programs with a former Chicago Citizen of the Year and respected professor, claiming it was a dangerous association with a terrorist. This new McCain also let Karl Rove become an unpaid advisor for his campaign.
Most importantly, the new McCain selected Sarah Palin to be his running mate. Once it became clear how deeply ignorant, vapid, and wacky this governor was, moderates were by and large turned off of his campaign. But he  constantly cheered her on, trying to shield her from scrutiny or criticism and claiming that she was ready to be the president at a moment's notice. I'd like to believe that most people saw through this without much effort.

It's my position (at the moment) that the McCain campaign lost because they tried to embrace the far right-of-center votes almost at every step and alienated the moderates. Of course if somebody feels that's incorrect, I'd surely like to hear their views. I'd like to see if there's some information relevant to how many votes he would have lost on the Conservative side if he tried to appeal more to the centrist position compared to the moderate votes he would have gained, but I really don't think it would have balanced out. I doubt many of them would have voted for Obama out of protest.

In short I think this election went to Obama because the other side pandered to a further-right view than most people were willing to accept, and one that was at odds with the candidate. I'd be extremely disheartened to learn that the party's response is not going to be an overhaul of their position (or at least their image) towards moderates, but instead a further retreat right-wards.[B]

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,10:27   

Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 06 2008,08:19)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 05 2008,23:46)
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-d....ou.html

Fox News's Shep Smith: "How could they end up with a running mate who doesn't know that Africa is a continent?"


Color me naive, but I have a hard time believing this is actually true.

I was thinking the same thing, although this report this report made me think twice:

 
Quote
In a separate report on Fox News it was claimed Mrs Palin had confided in Mr McCain's aides that she was unsure whether South Africa was a region in a country called Africa and did not know what countries made up the North American Free Trade Agreement.


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The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,11:02   

   
Quote
In a separate report on Fox News it was claimed Mrs Palin had confided in Mr McCain's aides that she was unsure whether South Africa was a region in a country called Africa and did not know what countries made up the North American Free Trade Agreement.
[/quote]

The FTK of AK!

WOOT!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,13:22   

Golly! An opening for another old joke!

Dubya is being briefed on the day's security issues. Towards the end, Condi Rice says "And I'm sorry to report that twelve Brazilian soldiers were killed in a joint training accident yesterday."

The Prezdint is appalled.

"My God Condi, how are we ever going to deal with this? Those poor men! Their families! This is beyond awful, I . . . I can't find words to . . ."

After a brief pause, he asks

"Condi, just how big a number is a brazillion?"

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,13:27   

Racism in Motorsports!

Not NASCAR, of course.

What have you people done with Sir Richard Hughes?

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,14:47   

Quote (Wheels @ Nov. 06 2008,22:10)
Quote (bystander @ Nov. 05 2008,17:51)
What you would have to figure out is that if he hadn't picked Palin and kept true to himself, would he have picked up enough moderates to make up for the conservatives who wouldn't have voted.

This Slate article is good and reflects what I saw on Michelle Malkin's blog last night. The fault lies either outside the party or because McCain wasn't like them.

<snip>
I've thought myself, and seen this thought echoed across the interwebs, that if the John McCain of 2000 were running instead of the 2008 version we saw, it would have been a much closer race and he might have stood a good chance of winning. This sentiment cropped up again right after McCain's concession speech.

<snip>
It's my position (at the moment) that the McCain campaign lost because they tried to embrace the far right-of-center votes almost at every step and alienated the moderates. Of course if somebody feels that's incorrect, I'd surely like to hear their views. I'd like to see if there's some information relevant to how many votes he would have lost on the Conservative side if he tried to appeal more to the centrist position compared to the moderate votes he would have gained, but I really don't think it would have balanced out. I doubt many of them would have voted for Obama out of protest.

In short I think this election went to Obama because the other side pandered to a further-right view than most people were willing to accept, and one that was at odds with the candidate. I'd be extremely disheartened to learn that the party's response is not going to be an overhaul of their position (or at least their image) towards moderates, but instead a further retreat right-wards.[B]

I generally agree but I don't we don't know the numbers. There were people reported to say before Palin that they wouldn't vote at all but was this 10 million people or 50 people. The same for the moderates who left when McCain was pushed to the right, were they 10 million people or just 50 people. My opinion is that the party did the maths and thought that the numbers on the hard right being lost was high enough to more than make up for the moderates that they would have kept.

The fact is that 48% still voted for the McCain ticket. Who are they and what are they thinking? On the intertubes, all of the right wings sites I have seen say that they lost due to being too far to the left. Do these people represent the 48% or are they the fringe.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,15:17   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 06 2008,11:27)
What have you people done with Sir Richard Hughes?

Louis killed him and ate him.

Some English thing. We wouldn't understand.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dhogaza



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,15:32   

Regarding Palin's request to speak in Arizona.  This was strange for a couple of different reasons, and speaks again to her ignorance of the world beyond the borders of Wasilla.  Add ignorance of election night tradition to the list.

She wanted to give her concession speech *before* McCain, not after.  In other words, to be the person making the concession official.  To steal the spotlight from McCain.  That's just bizarre.  I suspect this might be the first time a losing VP candidate made such a request since they started running on a unified ticket (once upon a time VPs ran, and were voted for, separately).

Secondly, VP candidates rarely if ever have given acceptance or concession  speeches.  In this case, it's pretty obvious that Palin's desire to do so was motivated by a desire to clamber over McCain's dead body and kickstart that "Palin 2012!" crap.  Before the body was cold.

Apparently she showed up with written notes for her prepared speech, and that was when she was told "no, you're not going to speak".

Earth to Sarah - if they'd wanted you to speak, they would've told you themselves.  It's McCain's gig, not yours.

Note how all Biden did in Chicago was to walk on stage with his wife and wave to the crowd after the acceptance speech, sharing the stage with Obama and his family.  A nice group wave and then off they went into the night.

That's the tradition, for winners and losers.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,15:56   

Que Sarah, que Sarah, whatever will be will be...

  
EyeNoU



Posts: 115
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,16:18   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 06 2008,15:56)
Que Sarah, que Sarah, whatever will be will be...

Syrah? Isn't that a type of whine?

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,16:58   

Quote (dhogaza @ Nov. 06 2008,15:32)
Regarding Palin's request to speak in Arizona.  This was strange for a couple of different reasons, and speaks again to her ignorance of the world beyond the borders of Wasilla.  Add ignorance of election night tradition to the list.

She wanted to give her concession speech *before* McCain, not after.  In other words, to be the person making the concession official.  To steal the spotlight from McCain.  That's just bizarre.  I suspect this might be the first time a losing VP candidate made such a request since they started running on a unified ticket (once upon a time VPs ran, and were voted for, separately).

Separate elections for the POTUS and VPOTUS effectively ended in 1804, I believe. Palin got one vote: McCain's. That is the sum total of democracy behind her candidacy.

I'm going to miss her; the soap opera was gangs o' fun.

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,17:07   

Quote (Amadan @ Nov. 06 2008,03:13)
Actually, I understand that Gov. Palin is going to take off the next six months or so to finish her book.



It's called The Bridesmaid's Best Man, by Barbara Hannay.




This comment was sponsored by Acme Joke Recycling Inc. No beauty pageant contestants were harmed in the making of this comment

I dunno... It looks rather involved, probably big words in it too.  Maybe she can find a Cliff Notes version. *



*For you non-Yanks, Cliff Notes  are "guides" that lazy-ass American students use so they don't have to read all of a classic like Moby Dick.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,18:12   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2008,20:11)
Quote (Louis @ Nov. 05 2008,13:29)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2008,12:29)
Just got to the lab from the gym. (When I left the gym, I noticed the sun had risen.) Usually I'm just about the only one on our wing of the lab's main office building at 7:00 am. I met a good friend, an extremely talented Moroccan physicist, a woman. She was sooo happy and told me she'd been crying. She asked me how I felt--knowing who I voted for (though we never discussed it.) I told her it was hard not to be happy at the history that had been made.

She startled me with almost the exact comment I made on here or Brayton's blog--that this could happen only in America. She used two of the same examples--she could not imagine a Moroccan leading France or a Turk in Germany.

Congratulations America.

Odious comparisons thy name is, Heddle.

Children of "immigrant races" have been leading European nations on and off over the centuries. Obama is not a foreigner he is a native born American citizen. Count the Jewish first ministers of various nations throughout history for example.

Not only could this NOT only happen in America, it's happened elsewhere with vastly less pomp and effort. Comparing Obama to a Turkish immigrant in Germany is not comparing like with like. Maybe you should get yourself a passport and visit this little place the rest of us like to call "The Rest of The World", it might surprise you.

Louis

Louis you raging imbecile.

You will note in this case the comparison, though similar to one I have made in the past, comes from a Moroccan, a woman, Muslim, a scientist, an Obama supporter, and who, by the way, did her Ph.D. in France. She is now fairly high-ranking here at Jefferson Lab. And of course she wasn't talking about immigrants--the US has had multitudinous presidents one or few generations removed from immigrants--that would hardly be worth mentioning. She was talking about people of color. Her words to me were “only in America.” If she meant “it has only ever happened in America” then she is demonstrably correct—unless you can provide an example of a person of color elected to lead a European nation. If she meant “it could only ever happen in America,” we’ll have to wait to see if she is correct, but so far the hypothesis fits the data.

When someone of color leads a European nation, or when you say something intelligent, whichever comes first, you can take the high ground. Prior to that—get lost. You bore me to tears with your pusillanimous, self-righteous, inchoate hissy-fits.

Touch a nerve did I Heddle?

You can chant "USA! USA! USA!" all you like and tout your patronising drivel about "I has a black friend" until you're blue in the face. Your friend's colour etc don't suddenly make her claims valid. Her ignorance, brilliance or combination of all three (see under: humour) is irrelevant to her religion, race, sex etc. Nice try, your attempt at being "liberal" (more accurately, a caricature of one) = FAIL.

Is Barack Obama the first black person to lead the USA? Sure. Are we all pleased about it? Absolutely! But trying to turn that victory for the world (and I truly mean that) into some point that this somehow demonstrates that the racial divisions that wound all nations are somehow now miraculously less present in America than elsewhere is incoherent babble in the extreme. Figureheads do not integration make.

No "high ground" has been taken, your desire to see it as such bespeaks your own insecurity, not any flaw on my part. My quibble is one of fact, racial integration and enfranchisement in many European nations has, demonstrably across history, been vastly superior to that of the USA. Care to challenge me on the facts? Let's examine (for example) just when and how black people were given the vote, just when segregation laws were abolished, black people/immigrants/people of different faiths and none in positions of substantial power/parliaments etc. It's a long old list! Even South Africa had a black person as president before both our respective nations, a nation utterly riven by racial strife and apartheid. A fact that should, under your {cough} logic, demonstrate the integrational superiority and uniqueness of South Africa. Oh and incidentally, I know I am not comparing like with like, my choice is quite deliberate. That is a major part of the point I was making.

Does that mean we are perfect in Europe, or that we can adopt some position of moral superiority? No, no and thrice NO! Nor did I claim such, learn to read. One would hope an academic would have managed such a task by now....

If we want to pick single examples, then you're almost 30 years too late, by your method of "thought" (I use the term advisedly) I could claim that the UK is vastly less discriminatory to women because we elected Thatcher in 1979. Just to make it clear: I WOULDN'T claim that. One would hope an academic would have learnt the basic elements of logic by now.....

That you see the successes outside of America as somehow a slur against America's good name and some kind of adoption of moral superiority (which it ain't, we have our own issues, many of which we lag far behind the USA in solving) is just the type of identity political puerility that I have been condemning you for from the start. You project your own idiocy far too severely. See past it.

Not only do I (and many others) celebrate a black person in the White House, we hope other nations will follow suit (should suitable candidates arise. Meritocracy after all is my personal ideal). After all, even India is ahead of us all in this respect having elected a member of a minority race/religion (a Sikh) to its premier political post....oh but wait...they all look a like so they're the same, right?*

So as usual, in your whiny projectionist identity games you have missed my point, which is not that America = bad, Europe = good (or any such drivel), but that not only can such political victories for racial equality happen elsewhere but that they do and have. It's related to a little thing called context, I might have mentioned it before, don't worry, you won't have noticed, it's far too complex for you to comprehend, you just stick to "Duh they be like me so I be a-votin' for um", it'll get you so far in life.**

For you to trumpet Obama's victory as some uniquely American possibility is so laughable it's unbelievable, and you examples of a Turk in Germany etc fall so far short of an actually valid comparison as to make one question what limited sanity you must possess. Do you really think that the 138 or so year gap between the election of Hiram Revels to the Senate and Obama's victory will be similarly repeated in (for example) the UK? By that token we should get a black PM sometime in 2125 or so (or 2060, depending on how you count certain nuances, or even...hmmm I wonder if my point has been made sufficiently clearly). Given that we've had more black/immigrant MPs in a tiny space of time than you've had black senators ever I'd err on the side of optimism! (Now what was it I said about inaccurate comparisons....)

However, as previously noted, you'll doubtlessly miss the point as usual and see the above as some vile piece of Eurocentric egotism designed to slur the stainless nation of America. Frankly, yanking your chain and making you yap isn't that much fun (no matter how bored you claim to be, you're insults give the lie to your poor veneer of faux dispassion) so I don't bother with it. Mocking you for the utter vapid nonsense you spout whilst you swagger about pretending to be an intellectual however, well now that IS fun. Especially when a little barb pokes at that massive ego of yours by deflating a puffed up claim you've made. Not one of god's more special special children are you? I note, of course in passing, that you've moved those goalposts and failed to answer the substantial point, instead opting for the identity politics. Well done. Oh and thanks for doing my job for me.

Face it Heddle, you are as I dubbed you, a seat warmer. Occupying a space a more rational and better candidate could and should occupy. Your irrationality and inability to read for basic comprehension give you away. Perhaps that candidate could even be black.....

Oh and what hissy fit? I took you to task for your admission of shallow identity politics before and I took you to task again for your equally shallow and inaccurate jingoism. Please stop projecting your own problems onto me Heddle, it makes me feel dirty.

Louis

*This, for the hard of thought, is sarcasm. Anyone who understood the persecution the Sikhs/Punjabis have suffered in very recent times (and more ancient ones) should realise what an enlightened (and expertly politically manoeuvred) coop this was.

**Also sarcasm. I feel I have to point these things out.

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,18:17   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 05 2008,20:27)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2008,14:11)
 
Quote (Louis @ Nov. 05 2008,13:29)

Odious comparisons thy name is, Heddle.

When someone of color leads a European nation, or when you say something intelligent, whichever comes first, you can take the high ground. Prior to that—get lost. You bore me to tears with your pusillanimous, self-righteous, inchoate hissy-fits.

Well, it isn't the same as a tard outbreak over at UD, but it will have to do.


LOL One day you really have to meet me, that particular stereotype I do not fit!

Warning: If I do finally mange to make it out into the real world and socialise, there may be beer, and quite possibly inadvisable tequila. Ask that Steve Elliot bloke.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,18:25   

OH and F everyone's I I took a more awake look at the McCain concession and will concede (ha ha) its grace. Maybe I was cranky at ~4am. I'd also largely agree that McCain the man seems like a decent chap in a tough spot with his party and potential electorate.

However, the Scooby-Doo like comment I'll stick to like glue. I really did think that he basically said "If it hadn't been for you pesky black voters I'd have gotten away with it" at some point in the middle of the thing. Now, I am expressedly NOT saying that McCain regrets that fact or resents it, or in anyway would like to have disenfranchised those people, but I am saying that his phrasing struck me as "interesting".

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,18:29   

It's been so nice the last couple of days. I've hardly thought about the election or checked the news at all. I feel sorry for Obama, though, he's coming into office with the nation probably in the worst shape since 1968.

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,18:52   

Quote (Louis @ Nov. 06 2008,18:12)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 05 2008,20:11)

So, let me summarize.

Heddle:



Louis:



Have I got that about right?  Okay, good:



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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,19:21   

For the sake of the amicability of the board I expect people to not bash anyone's political opinions too much. Having good natured discussion occasionally requires holding back a bit.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,20:03   

HA HA THIS IS HEDDLE AND LOUIS:



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
The Wayward Hammer



Posts: 64
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,21:10   

Yes, the John McCain of 2000 would have made a better showing.  But that McCain got trashed by people like Limbaugh.

But really, even if John McCain of 2000 had run a perfect campaign in 2008, could he have won?  Bush poisoned those waters and then the financial / housing crisis sealed the deal.  I am sorry that McCain was the Bob Dole / Walter Mondale sacrifice - he deserved better.  

I think the 538 website did a great job showing the disparity in the ground game between the campaigns.  McCain never got the enthusiastic volunteer support that Obama did - maybe there is something to McCain's moderate stances not energizing the core enough.  Moderates must have great charisma to drive people to the enthusiasm needed for a campaign list Obama's.  John McCain is many things, but he is not charismatic.

Of course, this all really reminds me of a retirement party I once went where the retiree was a bit of an ass.  I, being more stupid than most, stood up and said, "I'm here for the same reason most of you are - to make sure this bastard actually leaves."  People laughed in that nervous way they do when they are not sure if you're really joking.  People stood in line on Tuesday just to make sure that SOB Bush actually left.

  
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,21:22   

Quote
McCain never got the enthusiastic volunteer support that Obama did - maybe there is something to McCain's moderate stances not energizing the core enough.


Maybe less time spent mocking community organizers at the RNC would have helped the campaign.

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,02:41   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 07 2008,01:21)
For the sake of the amicability of the board I expect people to not bash anyone's political opinions too much. Having good natured discussion occasionally requires holding back a bit.

I *AM* holding back. Do you want to know what I *really* think?

Louis

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Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,03:52   

Louis,

Brayton has a post on binary thinking that might serve you well. It will be taxing for you, but if you read it a few times I'm sure you'll grasp the concept.

By the way, Joe Biden called. He wants his exaggerated self-esteem back. (He says you can keep his bloviator.)

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,07:29   

Quote (The Wayward Hammer @ Nov. 06 2008,21:10)
Of course, this all really reminds me of a retirement party I once went where the retiree was a bit of an ass.  I, being more stupid than most, stood up and said, "I'm here for the same reason most of you are - to make sure this bastard actually leaves."  People laughed in that nervous way they do when they are not sure if you're really joking.  People stood in line on Tuesday just to make sure that SOB Bush actually left.

Line Of The Week!

We do still have that award, right?

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,07:40   

re:  Louis v Heddle

You two BOTH make much more sense than Obama v McCain, and the world looks forward to the day when actual ideas rather than political slogans are debated.

ps:  For this round I have to vote for Louis.  Sorry Heddle, but NASCAR Rootin' is the litmus test for me, and I grew up a Formula 1 Fan.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,07:49   

The Times Take: (The Real Original Times)

The Times Online

Another short couple of paragraphs with an "outsiders"  view of the election.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,09:37   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 05 2008,15:09)
The graciousness of McCain's concession actually kind of startled me, too. Almost made me feel sorry for the guy.* I think he wanted to close out his career on a more upbeat note than being the asshole who spent 3 months calling Obama a socialist terrorist. His audience wasn't all on board, tho. They booed very loudly the first couple times he mentioned Obama's name.

I don't think Caribou Barbie has made any kind of statement, tho. Alaska just re-elected senator Stevens even though he's now a convicted felon facing possible jail time. So of course they're talking about Palin running for his seat after the Senate kicks him out next month.

*Almost.

A while ago I watched a documentary unrelated with the elections, Why We Fight, wich featured McCain. It made me ponder about him, and I looked some stuff up about it. My conclusion was simple: is this the guy who was running for president?? Before the election, he seemed to be (to me at least) as a decent, skeptical and overal good guy, certainly not a Repub-drone. But during the campaign, he looked more like a Karl Rove puppet. Seemed like he was done with that roll as well, when I saw some fragments from his speech. He looked genuinenly pissed off at those booing and shouting supporters. Simply put, the "old" McCain wasn't the McCain I saw during the election. A shame tbh. How he could ever live with becoming like that, and doing all those things Wheels summed up, is a mystery to me.

@Heddle:
It's obvious that electing Obama doesn't say much about the state of racism in America:
1: Only about 50% of the total population voted.
2: From that 50%, about 52% voted for Obama.
That still leaves tens of millions of people not supporting Obama, and I don't even count "positive racism" ("I voted for him because he's black.") wich is, imo, bad as well.

PS: I don't have the exact numers, if anyone can correct me: thanks.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,09:43   

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archive....568.php

'the homosexual agenda'. Apparently the gays have an agenda to not be treated like crap. They're very insidious like that.

50 years ago, were these people complaining about The Colored Agenda?

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,10:27   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 07 2008,09:43)
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archive....568.php

'the homosexual agenda'. Apparently the gays have an agenda to not be treated like crap. They're very insidious like that.

50 years ago, were these people complaining about The Colored Agenda?

Speaking of teh Homo Agenda, did you see that the Big Money behind Prop 8 on the CA ballot was supplied by Old AssHat and DI Founder Howard Ahronson?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,13:22   

What, Howard Ahmanson, Jr. managed to stay away from that?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,13:52   

Quote (Assassinator @ Nov. 07 2008,09:37)
@Heddle:
It's obvious that electing Obama doesn't say much about the state of racism in America:
1: Only about 50% of the total population voted.
2: From that 50%, about 52% voted for Obama.
That still leaves tens of millions of people not supporting Obama, and I don't even count "positive racism" ("I voted for him because he's black.") wich is, imo, bad as well.

PS: I don't have the exact numers, if anyone can correct me: thanks.

Of course is says something substantive about the state of racism in America. A member of a much oppressed 13% minority being elected head of state is a significant event. Just as certainly it doesn’t say that racism is a solved rather than a continuing problem. But it says something, and it says something important. It’s a Jackie Robinson moment writ large.

Could this have happened any earlier in our history? Almost certainly not. Therefore it represents progress. The only question is: how much?

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,14:18   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 07 2008,14:52)
Could this have happened any earlier in our history? Almost certainly not. Therefore it represents progress. The only question is: how much?

If you look at the voting by age you can see something

Age Group
Obama:McCain

18-29
66%:32%

30-44
52%:46%

45-64
50%:49%

65 or Older
45%:53%

While several factors play into this, one thing you can say is that young people generally don't seem to have had any problem voting for Obama. Young people these days, and I've been around a lot of them the last few years near NCSU, Duke, and UNC, are much more colorblind that their parents and grandparents. It's just a result of races mixing more. It's harder to discriminate against people you've been friends with. Same reason gay marriage is utterly inevitable in the next decade or so.

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,21:28   

Don't worry, Palin haters.  She might try to appoint herself Freshman Senator from Alaska since those idiots elected a 7 time felon to represent them.

I believe the Alaskan Supreme Court as the power to block her appointment of herself, but I may be wrong.  Not sure if they would do so if they could, however.

If it's not illegal to appoint yourself to an elected office someone should look into that....

ETA: I don't want to single out Alaskan idiots, my home state of Missouri once elected a dead man to Congress, srsly.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,22:18   

Quote (blipey @ Nov. 07 2008,21:28)
ETA: I don't want to single out Alaskan idiots, my home state of Missouri once elected a dead man to Congress, srsly.

I was living there at the time.  To be fair he was a very popular dead man and the guy opposing him was an ass-hat.  W appointed him to a fairly memorable post shortly thereafter.  The ass-hat, I mean, not the dead guy.  He then spent a lot of time protecting us from the Bill of Rights and nude statuary.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2008,00:30   

Quote
He then spent a lot of time protecting us from the Bill of Rights and nude statuary.

Nude statuary? Was that a big threat at some point? :D

Henry

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2008,07:46   

racism in the uk
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7717000/7717251.stm

edited to add the general page:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/

and correct my abysmal spelling

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2008,08:21   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Nov. 07 2008,22:18)
Quote (blipey @ Nov. 07 2008,21:28)
ETA: I don't want to single out Alaskan idiots, my home state of Missouri once elected a dead man to Congress, srsly.

I was living there at the time.  To be fair he was a very popular dead man and the guy opposing him was an ass-hat.  W appointed him to a fairly memorable post shortly thereafter.  The ass-hat, I mean, not the dead guy.  He then spent a lot of time protecting us from the Bill of Rights and nude statuary.

Don't get me wrong, Ashcroft was/is an asshat (I love that word).  I chose not to vote in that race.  Carnahan's wife was not an acceptable Senatorial choice and provided Missourians with no clout in Congress.  Though I certainly understand voting for her to keep the asshat out.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2008,16:13   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 08 2008,00:30)
Quote
He then spent a lot of time protecting us from the Bill of Rights and nude statuary.

Nude statuary? Was that a big threat at some point? :D

Henry

It was.  Thankfully, Ashcroft was there to protect freedom, (lady) justice, and the American way.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2008,23:49   

Quote
Obama and the War on Brains

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: November 9, 2008

Barack Obama’s election is a milestone in more than his pigmentation. The second most remarkable thing about his election is that American voters have just picked a president who is an open, out-of-the-closet, practicing intellectual.

Maybe, just maybe, the result will be a step away from the anti-intellectualism that has long been a strain in American life. Smart and educated leadership is no panacea, but we’ve seen recently that the converse — a White House that scorns expertise and shrugs at nuance — doesn’t get very far either.


linky

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,05:26   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 07 2008,09:52)
Louis,

Brayton has a post on binary thinking that might serve you well. It will be taxing for you, but if you read it a few times I'm sure you'll grasp the concept.

By the way, Joe Biden called. He wants his exaggerated self-esteem back. (He says you can keep his bloviator.)

LOL

Considering I'm the very definition of non-binary thinking, your insult: it is wide of the mark. The irony being that I have been expressedly arguing against binary thinking, and identity politics (a subset of the dichotomous mind), of exactly the type you espouse! Fucking hell Heddle, at least TRY to read for comprehension once in a while.

The rest... who the hell cares about Biden (or any aspect of party politics)? I know I don't. Swing and a miss, Heddle. Keep warming that seat.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,05:30   

Quote (Paul Flocken @ Nov. 08 2008,13:46)
racism in the uk
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7717000/7717251.stm

edited to add the general page:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/

and correct my abysmal spelling

Yup, we has it too!

I never have, and never will, say/suggest differently. Dumb is universal, it doesn't only affect one group.*

Louis

*Well obviously apart from dumb people..... ;-)

ETA: Link to a sentiment I agree with in all seriousness, when the jokes are all done.

--------------
Bye.

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,09:57   

Quote (blipey @ Nov. 07 2008,22:28)
Don't worry, Palin haters.  She might try to appoint herself Freshman Senator from Alaska since those idiots elected a 7 time felon to represent them.

I believe the Alaskan Supreme Court as the power to block her appointment of herself, but I may be wrong.  Not sure if they would do so if they could, however.

If it's not illegal to appoint yourself to an elected office someone should look into that....

ETA: I don't want to single out Alaskan idiots, my home state of Missouri once elected a dead man to Congress, srsly.

Alaska has special elections, not appointments, after a previous governor appointed his daughter. I gather she was rather unqualified. Cronyism/Nepotism is quite common in Alaska, it seems.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,14:45   



(from Corpus Callosum)

   
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,15:11   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 10 2008,14:45)


(from Corpus Callosum)

I'm calling Poe on that one--and I sure hope I'm right.

Their page on W states:

 
Quote
George Walker Bush (born New Haven, Connecticut 1946) is the greatest President in the history of America. He was the Governor of Texas (1996-2001) and has served as the Republican President of the United States of America since 2001. Campaigning on the notion that the United States should not be in the business of nation-building (a stance that would later be modified after 9/11 changed everything), he won the office by a narrow margin in the decisive State of Florida. Legal challenges to the certified vote count went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000. Democratic contender Al Gore initially conceded defeat on the night of the election, but then contested the outcome for weeks until the Supreme Court case Bush v. Gore, in which Jesus Christ influenced the Supreme Court to vote in favor of Bush. It was the greatest moment in American history.


Nobody who is that much of a fundy writes that well.

And their featured article:

Quote
The Roman Catholic Church, often referred to simply as the "Catholic Church", is the largest criminal organization in the world, with about one billion adherents. It comprises one of the three great divisions of false Christianity, together with non-Baptist Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

The Church consists of those who are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, who is generally called the Pope, currently ex-Nazi Pope Benedict XVI. The Church falsely teaches that the Pope is the successor of St. Peter, whom Catholics regard as the original leader of Christ's apostles and as the first Bishop of Rome.


Now really...

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,15:12   

WTF is an Affirmative Action President?

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,15:21   

The reactions at "Rapture Ready" have been too precious not to share:

Quote

AChildOfTheKing  
Washed in His Blood

This is scary stuff - if you read into the detail of what exactly he is aiming to reverse, a lot of it is very evil. He seeks to attack the sanctity of life, push globalization, and force all to submit to the growing "mother Gaia" worship the world is falling into. Evil, evil, evil!


Quote

JY11
Rockin' for the Lord

I can't wait to see what happens with all of the Obama supporters, when the "unpopular decisions" are made!
Right now, America is basking in the afterglow of the election of "The One"--blissfully unaware that any danger exists here in the suddenly new and improved United Socialist States of America. All we can do is to do what we already have been doing--be prayerful and watchful. Stay stocked up on supplies. If you own weapons keep them loaded and ready. Oh, did I mention prayer?

I would guess that some Obama supporters are in for a rude awakening.


Quote

Steve369

Well.

It's just too bad. Yet this is the path that the American people and the rest of the "world" have chosen. The average person that I know already believes the "lie." There is more sympathy for terrorist than the victims. It all starts with the sin of "unbelief" and rejection of the "truth." Once a person rejects Christ then one sin leads to another.

I kind of think or hope what we are now seeing building up will happen after the "seals" are broken; meaning we'll be long gone by then.

"8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."


I had to add one more:

Quote
4TheLight

After reading this article I get the feeling:

1. Bidens statements happened before the elections. They already knew Obama would be president by saying he would be tested. Meaning your votes are nothing more than an illusion...

2. The USA will be nuked. How do world leaders know this? Unless it's staged and pre-planned...

3. Obama will be "tested" and apparently whatever choice he will make will be an unpopular one because they expect resistance. Well how can they know his choice will be unpopular if the events havent even happened yet...he hasnt even made a choice or been confronted with the situation...what will this situation be? Deploy UN troops in the USA? Take weapons? Not support Israel?

4. I beleive we are seeing mass deception here. Suddenly all those conspiracy theories dont seem so crazy anymore...


don't seem crazy? don't seem crazy?

Oh you are so crazy.

Edited by Dr.GH on Nov. 10 2008,13:26

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,15:27   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 10 2008,16:11)
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 10 2008,14:45)


(from Corpus Callosum)

I'm calling Poe on that one--and I sure hope I'm right.

Their page on W states:

   
Quote
George Walker Bush (born New Haven, Connecticut 1946) is the greatest President in the history of America. He was the Governor of Texas (1996-2001) and has served as the Republican President of the United States of America since 2001. Campaigning on the notion that the United States should not be in the business of nation-building (a stance that would later be modified after 9/11 changed everything), he won the office by a narrow margin in the decisive State of Florida. Legal challenges to the certified vote count went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000. Democratic contender Al Gore initially conceded defeat on the night of the election, but then contested the outcome for weeks until the Supreme Court case Bush v. Gore, in which Jesus Christ influenced the Supreme Court to vote in favor of Bush. It was the greatest moment in American history.


Nobody who is that much of a fundy writes that well.

And their featured article:

 
Quote
The Roman Catholic Church, often referred to simply as the "Catholic Church", is the largest criminal organization in the world, with about one billion adherents. It comprises one of the three great divisions of false Christianity, together with non-Baptist Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

The Church consists of those who are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, who is generally called the Pope, currently ex-Nazi Pope Benedict XVI. The Church falsely teaches that the Pope is the successor of St. Peter, whom Catholics regard as the original leader of Christ's apostles and as the first Bishop of Rome.


Now really...

I hope it's fake. I think it's impossible to guess. A lot of that material seems to be lifted from Conservapedia, which isn't fake.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,16:30   

that is why there is poe.  you just can't tell.

I just had a distant cousin of mine sit me down and tell me with all seriousness about the anti-christ and the rapture was a fixing to happen and all this stuff.  she had this song she had written about Obamination and mystery of babylon and desolation.  i think they might be singing it at her church.  she told me he is going to receive a mortal head wound and it will seem that he has arisen from the dead and he will walk again and rule 3 days later.  and she will be gone because of the rapture but her old man has a hideout and they have some friends and everyone is stocked up and they said we can only be attacked overhead or from the river we have the holler covered.  and she said they are fixing to put electron microchips in everyones hands right after the TVs go digital and they are going to have to get rid of the phone and the cable and all that stuff and be off the grid and she is going to go live in the barn.  she said that some feller somebody Emmanuel is going to play a prominent figure in this Obama administration to make all these events play out according to prophecy.  

oh man now i love this shit but it's hard when it's in yer face and not some dork on a computer sommers.  it was hard to me to hold it in you know.  I said "Well I don't really believe all that stuff anyhow.  Now tell me what if you was to wake up and all of the Episcopalians were gone but no one else?"  she said who are they and what do they do and I said they drink wine at communion and where there is four there is likely a fifth and then her old man started laughing and told her to hush for a while.  and she did for a while.

she always wants to play music when i go up there and so i grabbed her guitar so she'd hush and started singing some songs.  and one of them is a bit sacrilegious well to some people and i'll be damned if she didn't start praying real loud in the room and stuff.  she didn't tell me to stop or not play nothing like that, she just started in with that chanting stuff.  i straightened up and played some stuff she knew and then i got the hell out of there.  

no doubt that loony shit is real heddle.  perhaps you have been cloistered in your lily white ivory tower so long you forget what yer fellow travellers actually believe.  or possibly i know some real crackerjacks.  if so i know where there is a whole bunch more of them too buddy.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,18:05   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 11 2008,00:30)
that is why there is poe.  you just can't tell.

I just had a distant cousin of mine sit me down and tell me with all seriousness about the anti-christ and the rapture was a fixing to happen and all this stuff.  she had this song she had written about Obamination and mystery of babylon and desolation.  i think they might be singing it at her church.  she told me he is going to receive a mortal head wound and it will seem that he has arisen from the dead and he will walk again and rule 3 days later.  and she will be gone because of the rapture but her old man has a hideout and they have some friends and everyone is stocked up and they said we can only be attacked overhead or from the river we have the holler covered.  and she said they are fixing to put electron microchips in everyones hands right after the TVs go digital and they are going to have to get rid of the phone and the cable and all that stuff and be off the grid and she is going to go live in the barn.  she said that some feller somebody Emmanuel is going to play a prominent figure in this Obama administration to make all these events play out according to prophecy.  

oh man now i love this shit but it's hard when it's in yer face and not some dork on a computer sommers.  it was hard to me to hold it in you know.  I said "Well I don't really believe all that stuff anyhow.  Now tell me what if you was to wake up and all of the Episcopalians were gone but no one else?"  she said who are they and what do they do and I said they drink wine at communion and where there is four there is likely a fifth and then her old man started laughing and told her to hush for a while.  and she did for a while.

she always wants to play music when i go up there and so i grabbed her guitar so she'd hush and started singing some songs.  and one of them is a bit sacrilegious well to some people and i'll be damned if she didn't start praying real loud in the room and stuff.  she didn't tell me to stop or not play nothing like that, she just started in with that chanting stuff.  i straightened up and played some stuff she knew and then i got the hell out of there.  

no doubt that loony shit is real heddle.  perhaps you have been cloistered in your lily white ivory tower so long you forget what yer fellow travellers actually believe.  or possibly i know some real crackerjacks.  if so i know where there is a whole bunch more of them too buddy.

Oh Heddle knows only too well 'Ras.

He's wuz hoping they wud vote twice 2 get his Wasilla Hillabilly coast to coast Neiman Marcus raidn', 6 day creation, gunz 'n beanz chin draggers back into the eagles nest SO HEATHENS LIKE YOU WOULD FINALLY ACCEPT CHRIST WAS A TRIGGER HAPPY, BLOOD DRINKING, HUMMER DRIVING, ZERO HEALTH CARE FOR ALL CAPITALIST!!!

FUCK YOU JUST DON'T GET IT ....DO YOU?...HOMO!

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,18:17   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 10 2008,16:27)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 10 2008,16:11)
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 10 2008,14:45)


(from Corpus Callosum)

I'm calling Poe on that one--and I sure hope I'm right.

Their page on W states:

   
Quote
George Walker Bush (born New Haven, Connecticut 1946) is the greatest President in the history of America. He was the Governor of Texas (1996-2001) and has served as the Republican President of the United States of America since 2001. Campaigning on the notion that the United States should not be in the business of nation-building (a stance that would later be modified after 9/11 changed everything), he won the office by a narrow margin in the decisive State of Florida. Legal challenges to the certified vote count went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000. Democratic contender Al Gore initially conceded defeat on the night of the election, but then contested the outcome for weeks until the Supreme Court case Bush v. Gore, in which Jesus Christ influenced the Supreme Court to vote in favor of Bush. It was the greatest moment in American history.


Nobody who is that much of a fundy writes that well.

And their featured article:

 
Quote
The Roman Catholic Church, often referred to simply as the "Catholic Church", is the largest criminal organization in the world, with about one billion adherents. It comprises one of the three great divisions of false Christianity, together with non-Baptist Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

The Church consists of those who are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, who is generally called the Pope, currently ex-Nazi Pope Benedict XVI. The Church falsely teaches that the Pope is the successor of St. Peter, whom Catholics regard as the original leader of Christ's apostles and as the first Bishop of Rome.


Now really...

I hope it's fake. I think it's impossible to guess. A lot of that material seems to be lifted from Conservapedia, which isn't fake.

It is a Poe. Further down the W page it is claimed he is a member of Landover Baptist.  Definitely a Poe.

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,18:26   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 10 2008,15:27)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 10 2008,16:11)
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 10 2008,14:45)


(from Corpus Callosum)

I'm calling Poe on that one--and I sure hope I'm right.

Their page on W states:

   
Quote
George Walker Bush (born New Haven, Connecticut 1946) is the greatest President in the history of America. He was the Governor of Texas (1996-2001) and has served as the Republican President of the United States of America since 2001. Campaigning on the notion that the United States should not be in the business of nation-building (a stance that would later be modified after 9/11 changed everything), he won the office by a narrow margin in the decisive State of Florida. Legal challenges to the certified vote count went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000. Democratic contender Al Gore initially conceded defeat on the night of the election, but then contested the outcome for weeks until the Supreme Court case Bush v. Gore, in which Jesus Christ influenced the Supreme Court to vote in favor of Bush. It was the greatest moment in American history.


Nobody who is that much of a fundy writes that well.

And their featured article:

 
Quote
The Roman Catholic Church, often referred to simply as the "Catholic Church", is the largest criminal organization in the world, with about one billion adherents. It comprises one of the three great divisions of false Christianity, together with non-Baptist Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

The Church consists of those who are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, who is generally called the Pope, currently ex-Nazi Pope Benedict XVI. The Church falsely teaches that the Pope is the successor of St. Peter, whom Catholics regard as the original leader of Christ's apostles and as the first Bishop of Rome.


Now really...

I hope it's fake. I think it's impossible to guess. A lot of that material seems to be lifted from Conservapedia, which isn't fake.

Poe as Poe can be. From the "Trivia" about George W. Bush:

He has not slept since 1997.
His boyhood friends called him "Ace."
He wears size 14 shoes.
Although he seems to have a bit of trouble with English, he speaks eight other languages fluently.
His favorite film is Akira Kurosawa's 1952 classic "Ikiru," and he has memorized every word of the dialogue in the original Japanese.
His favorite color is blue.
He won the 1967 Yale Chess Championship.
At dinner parties he amuses the guests by crushing charcoal briquettes into very small diamonds.
He prefers Fords to Chevys.
His urine can be used as a powerful motor fuel.
His favorite TV show is "24."
While visiting Asia, he dove for pearls and stayed under water for 11 minutes before resurfacing for air.
Doctors have measured his manhood at 21 inches long and 9 inches around, flaccid. He uses two belts to strap it to his left leg, so the bulge in in pants will not unecessarily excite too many ladies.
While visiting his brother in Florida in 1992, he rescued a small child from the jaws of an alligator.

Yay, a new phun site!!!

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,18:38   

Quote
While visiting his brother in Florida in 1992, he rescued a small child from the jaws of an alligator.


Katherine Harris?

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
RF Brady



Posts: 30
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,20:33   

Quote (blipey @ Nov. 07 2008,21:28)
Don't worry, Palin haters.  She might try to appoint herself Freshman Senator from Alaska since those idiots elected a 7 time felon to represent them.

I believe the Alaskan Supreme Court as the power to block her appointment of herself, but I may be wrong.  Not sure if they would do so if they could, however.

If it's not illegal to appoint yourself to an elected office someone should look into that....

ETA: I don't want to single out Alaskan idiots, my home state of Missouri once elected a dead man to Congress, srsly.

Not only that, he beat out the man who would later become Attorney General during GWB's first term. How's that for a loser, can't even beat a corpse :p

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,21:35   

Quote
Georgia congressman warns of Obama dictatorship

By BEN EVANS – 3 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — A Republican congressman from Georgia said Monday he fears that President-elect Obama will establish a Gestapo-like security force to impose a Marxist or fascist dictatorship.


http://ap.google.com/article....4CCDU00

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,21:43   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 10 2008,21:35)
Quote
Georgia congressman warns of Obama dictatorship

By BEN EVANS – 3 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — A Republican congressman from Georgia said Monday he fears that President-elect Obama will establish a Gestapo-like security force to impose a Marxist or fascist dictatorship.


http://ap.google.com/article....4CCDU00

We have to come up with a term for nutcase assertions about Obama which you can't distinguish from parody.  How about Poe-bama?  :p

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,21:45   

Did Broun have anything to say about the concentration of power in the executive branch undertaken by the Bush administration? Funny, I don't remember any pithy warnings from Broun about fascistic tendencies while our civil liberties were being made null wholesale. And that actually happened.

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Nov. 10 2008,21:45

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,21:48   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 10 2008,21:35)
Quote
Georgia congressman warns of Obama dictatorship

By BEN EVANS – 3 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — A Republican congressman from Georgia said Monday he fears that President-elect Obama will establish a Gestapo-like security force to impose a Marxist or fascist dictatorship.


http://ap.google.com/article....4CCDU00

Quote
We can't be lulled into complacency," Broun said. "You have to remember that Adolf Hitler was elected in a democratic Germany. I'm not comparing him to Adolf Hitler. What I'm saying is there is the potential."


ahh yes the potential.  I reserve the right, you see.  he might also be the anti-christ, as well.  And if we are to believe Daniel, we can never know for sure.  I mean, what are the transitional pathways and their precursors and who gave God the dirt to make man anyway?  

Quote
"When he's proposing to have a national security force that's answering to him, that is as strong as the U.S. military, he's showing me signs of being Marxist."


because that is JUST what Karl would do.  WWKD?  make his own damn army.  from the UNDEAD.

Quote
Among other things, he called for expanding the nation's foreign service and doubling the size of the Peace Corps "to renew our diplomacy."
"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," Obama said in July. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."


the peace corps is going to TOTALLY start kicking some serious ass really really soon.  

there will be junior fink leagues and when you go in the PEACE CORPS (the name will be changed to ALWAYS be in CAPSLOCK as the first symbolic act of the presidency) they won't go dig toilet latrines anymore they will go DIG MASS GRAVES.  of the enemies of amurika by god. your neighbors even. killing them with kindness insteada some sort of aquaculture racket or basketweaving stuff on the other side of the globe like the shitty old peace corps did.

that senator is a JENIUS.  H0lla back

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,23:08   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 10 2008,19:48)
because that is JUST what Karl would do.  WWKD?  make his own damn army.  from the UNDEAD.

:)

I want my bumper sticker.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,19:48   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 10 2008,19:35)
Quote
Georgia congressman warns of Obama dictatorship

By BEN EVANS – 3 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — A Republican congressman from Georgia said Monday he fears that President-elect Obama will establish a Gestapo-like security force to impose a Marxist or fascist dictatorship.


http://ap.google.com/article....4CCDU00

It's all true. This proves it.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,20:36   

If there any complete morons in your family, and you don't know what to get them for xmas, what about an Impeach Obama bumper sticker or t-shirt?

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,21:28   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 11 2008,18:36)
If there any complete morons in your family, and you don't know what to get them for xmas, what about an Impeach Obama bumper sticker or t-shirt?

They do have a point. Especially given how equitably the GOP treated Clinton.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,21:45   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 11 2008,22:28)
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 11 2008,18:36)
If there any complete morons in your family, and you don't know what to get them for xmas, what about an Impeach Obama bumper sticker or t-shirt?

They do have a point. Especially given how equitably the GOP treated Clinton.

that particular logo (for those with image problems it says "I will respect your president the same way you respected mine") i think is actually perfectly valid. Liberals called Bush every name in the book and I certainly agreed with them. Turnabout is fair play and I've already been criticising Obama. I think he's wrong to add carmakers to the bailout, for instance. I wasn't trying to suggest that criticism of Obama is somehow wrong. By moron I meant the main design on that page, "Impeach Obama". Whether you like him or dislike him, you'd have to be an idiot to that that 76 days before being sworn in he already deserves to be impeached. If you think that right now, 7 days after the election, he deserves to be impeached, since he hasn't actually done anything official yet, it must be about his past, so then you must believe he's a terrorist, or a crypto-muslim, or a frothing Marxist, or something else which means that you are in fact a complete moron.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,22:01   

yeah but god damn that is funny.  i am still laughing

one of them shits said "It's OK:  It takes a Jimmy Carter to make a Ronald Reagan"

and another one had 666 on a mug shot of Obama's forehead.

"Shared prosperity is another name for Communism"

rofl.  what a bunch of shit sacks

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,23:24   

Longtime conservative Jeffrey Hart recently called the modern GOP the "Party of Stupid". David Brooks says they're going to lose for years because they're turning against educated people. I don't disagree. I've posted several comments in this thread about the anti-intellectualism among the Republicans. But I was still shocked to read that anti-intellectualism spelled out so plainly in this Rush Limbaugh quote:

Quote
"So all of you wizards of smart on our side, all of you intellectualoids who think that Palin was a drag, the party loves Sarah Palin. The vast majority of conservative Republicans love Sarah Palin. Twenty percent of Republicans who say she hurt the ticket, you are probably the ones that need to go and walk and join across the aisle with the others that you find so much more palatable because they are able to communicate and they are writers and they are intellectual ... The party loves her."


As an aside, "A fifth of our party should leave and join the smarties on the other side" is also stupid strategy. But I'm not convinced the GOP is doomed. I'm not sure the American public votes ideology. I mean obviously some do. But I think a lot of it is that when government and the economy really suck they just vote the other party in.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,23:31   

I know I've got to be avoiding the politics now for my own health but there's just so much yummy tard there. check out some FreeRepublic commenters w/r/t to Obama's grandmother's death.

here's a sample:

Quote
May have succumbed to Broken Heart considering what a crack-head, lying, racist and America hater her zebra Grandson turned out to be. Undoubtedly, her daughter was even more of a low life. Ms. Madelyn was probably very sad in her later years.


hat tip to someone on Dispatches.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2008,03:09   

Kobe Bryant Scores 25 In Holy Shit We Elected A Black President

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2008,07:41   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 12 2008,03:09)
Kobe Bryant Scores 25 In Holy Shit We Elected A Black President

That was some good writing!  Almost Denyse-esque in its execution, but it made more sense.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2008,08:35   

Tee hee

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2008,12:26   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 11 2008,22:24)
Longtime conservative Jeffrey Hart recently called the modern GOP the "Party of Stupid". David Brooks says they're going to lose for years because they're turning against educated people. I don't disagree. I've posted several comments in this thread about the anti-intellectualism among the Republicans. But I was still shocked to read that anti-intellectualism spelled out so plainly in this Rush Limbaugh quote:

Quote
"So all of you wizards of smart on our side, all of you intellectualoids who think that Palin was a drag, the party loves Sarah Palin. The vast majority of conservative Republicans love Sarah Palin. Twenty percent of Republicans who say she hurt the ticket, you are probably the ones that need to go and walk and join across the aisle with the others that you find so much more palatable because they are able to communicate and they are writers and they are intellectual ... The party loves her."


As an aside, "A fifth of our party should leave and join the smarties on the other side" is also stupid strategy. But I'm not convinced the GOP is doomed. I'm not sure the American public votes ideology. I mean obviously some do. But I think a lot of it is that when government and the economy really suck they just vote the other party in.

Help, we're being attacked by the educated segment of society!!111!eleven!!

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2008,13:32   

Quote

As an aside, "A fifth of our party should leave and join the smarties on the other side" is also stupid strategy.


Erm, yes, since that appears to be a key part of how Obama won. So let them do it again in 2012.

Quote
Twenty percent of Republicans who say she hurt the ticket, you are probably the ones that need to go and walk and join across the aisle with the others that you find so much more palatable because they are able to communicate and they are writers and they are intellectual ... The party loves her."


But ONLY 'the base' loves her. And the GOP base alone with everyone else driven off is NOT enough to elect a president. Not that I mind, but it's remarkable how many wingnuts can't see this.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2008,17:44   

Some colleagues were laughing the other day. Apparently 'Barack Obama' is very similar to the Cree for 'sagging thighs'. Thought you might like to know ;-)

--------------
All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2008,21:08   

Quote (Richard Simons @ Nov. 12 2008,17:44)
Some colleagues were laughing the other day. Apparently 'Barack Obama' is very similar to the Cree for 'sagging thighs'. Thought you might like to know ;-)

what does "Arden Chatfield" sound like?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2008,21:48   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Nov. 13 2008,05:08)
Quote (Richard Simons @ Nov. 12 2008,17:44)
Some colleagues were laughing the other day. Apparently 'Barack Obama' is very similar to the Cree for 'sagging thighs'. Thought you might like to know ;-)

what does "Arden Chatfield" sound like?

pfffftttt he's teh gayer HARDFEEL HATMAN




see second from left

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2008,00:05   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Nov. 12 2008,21:08)
Quote (Richard Simons @ Nov. 12 2008,17:44)
Some colleagues were laughing the other day. Apparently 'Barack Obama' is very similar to the Cree for 'sagging thighs'. Thought you might like to know ;-)

what does "Arden Chatfield" sound like?

I'm not sure I want to know.

--------------
All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2008,06:25   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 11 2008,23:31)
I know I've got to be avoiding the politics now for my own health but there's just so much yummy tard there. check out some FreeRepublic commenters w/r/t to Obama's grandmother's death.

here's a sample:

Quote
May have succumbed to Broken Heart considering what a crack-head, lying, racist and America hater her zebra Grandson turned out to be. Undoubtedly, her daughter was even more of a low life. Ms. Madelyn was probably very sad in her later years.


hat tip to someone on Dispatches.

Freerepublic was my entry level tard. They used to have lively, if futile, debates, until enough evilutionists were banned in a short time to populate two new sites.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2008,23:54   

Like other political junkies I've been reading dozens of "How to fix the GOP" articles lately. They vary widely. Some are smart, many are not. Tim Pawlenty said something very smart the other day:

Quote
   "We cannot be a majority governing party when we essentially cannot compete in the Northeast, we are losing our ability to compete in Great Lakes states, we cannot compete on the West Coast, we are increasingly in danger of competing in the mid-Atlantic states, and the Democrats are now winning some of the Western states," Pawlenty said. "That is not a formula for being a majority governing party in this nation."

   As if that weren't enough, he ticked off a few more challenges.

   "Similarly we cannot compete, and prevail, as a majority governing party if we have a significant deficit, as we do, with women, where we have a large deficit with Hispanics, where we have a large deficit with African American voters, where we have a large deficit with people of modest incomes and modest financial circumstances. Those are not factors that make up a formula for success going forward."


(from WashMo.)

I bring all this up because I have one general observation from reading all those articles. I have discovered that there's one sure sign the person you're reading is a complete nimrod. if they say some variant of "We have to get back to the principles of Ronald Reagan" the person you're reading has no idea what he's talking about. 1980 was very different than today. When Reagan won there'd been a 10 year period of stagnation, today we've seen years of huge corporate profits. When Reagan won, the cold war was in full effect, now it's nonexistent. When Reagan won people were paying 50, 60 90% tax rates. Now even the rich seldom pay 35%. Who gave a crap about the environment in 1980? Granola muchers in Portland? Now anyone with a brain is concerned about the environment. When Reagan won, health care was a nonissue, now it's a total bankrupting crisis. In short, the conditions prevalent today could hardly be more different than the conditions of 1980, and accordingly, what was attractive then would be seen as irrelevant now, which surprise! the GOP is, which is why educated people see them as completely out of touch and voted Democrat.

The way forward is not a cultish worship of Most Holy Ronald. The way forward for the GOP is to understand why young, passionate, educated people are fleeing the GOP like it's a chemical fire. If you look at the demographic trends, a party that primarily appeals to the old, white, southern, rural, and uneducated is a party that is F*$%ed.

(edited for the grammar. I knew I was white, southern, and rural, but apparently I'm uneducated too)

Edited by stevestory on Nov. 14 2008,00:58

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2008,00:24   

I blogged about the out-to-lunch-or-further-ness of Georgia Rep. Paul Broun and his speculation about Barack Obama playing 'what would you do if you were Hitler'.

Rep. Broun didn't show up in the comments, but a very conservative fellow did pop up to defend the Bush administration and castigate Obama, who he consistently refers to as "the socialist bastard".

It does go some way toward showing that politics and opposing religious antievolution are not completely correlated, since I happen to know this fellow, and he has been active in opposing creationist efforts. But we are having quite the back-and-forth over the current administration and the next one. As I note in my latest comment:

Quote

It wouldn’t hurt to be alert to abuses in any new administration, but I confess that I really don’t understand the exceptional animus displayed by Broun and now you concerning Obama.


The depth of emotion that some people have in reviling Obama does catch me by surprise.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2008,00:30   

well Wes have you had any body that you know love and more or less respect look you straight in the eye and tell you that either Obama or Rahm Emmanuel is the anti-christ and to expect the chip mark of the beast just as soon as they take TV to digital?

fascinating.  some people have a criterion for who they vote for that goes

Quote
1.  Is either candidate the anti-christ*?
1a:  Yes.  Vote for other candidate
1b:  No.  go to 1


they just need a bad guy.  My mamaw loved to hate Rick Flair and Ricky the Dragon Steamboat.  But those two are probably really nice guys and surely they would have gotten along with my Mamaw.  Surely.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2008,10:06   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 13 2008,22:30)
well Wes have you had any body that you know love and more or less respect look you straight in the eye and tell you that either Obama or Rahm Emmanuel is the anti-christ and to expect the chip mark of the beast just as soon as they take TV to digital?

fascinating.  some people have a criterion for who they vote for that goes

   
Quote
1.  Is either candidate the anti-christ*?
1a:  Yes.  Vote for other candidate
1b:  No.  go to 1


they just need a bad guy.  

Of course. That's the role that Louis fulfills in our lives.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2008,10:29   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 14 2008,18:06)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 13 2008,22:30)
well Wes have you had any body that you know love and more or less respect look you straight in the eye and tell you that either Obama or Rahm Emmanuel is the anti-christ and to expect the chip mark of the beast just as soon as they take TV to digital?

fascinating.  some people have a criterion for who they vote for that goes

   
Quote
1.  Is either candidate the anti-christ*?
1a:  Yes.  Vote for other candidate
1b:  No.  go to 1


they just need a bad guy.  

Of course. That's the role that Louis fulfills in our lives.

And of course we have the picture.....



Apollo with lamb..

The lamb is Welsh and he is holding duct tape in the other...

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2008,13:10   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 13 2008,23:54)
Like other political junkies I've been reading dozens of "How to fix the GOP" articles lately. They vary widely. Some are smart, many are not. Tim Pawlenty said something very smart the other day:

 
Quote
   "We cannot be a majority governing party when we essentially cannot compete in the Northeast, we are losing our ability to compete in Great Lakes states, we cannot compete on the West Coast, we are increasingly in danger of competing in the mid-Atlantic states, and the Democrats are now winning some of the Western states," Pawlenty said. "That is not a formula for being a majority governing party in this nation."

   As if that weren't enough, he ticked off a few more challenges.

   "Similarly we cannot compete, and prevail, as a majority governing party if we have a significant deficit, as we do, with women, where we have a large deficit with Hispanics, where we have a large deficit with African American voters, where we have a large deficit with people of modest incomes and modest financial circumstances. Those are not factors that make up a formula for success going forward."


(from WashMo.)

I bring all this up because I have one general observation from reading all those articles. I have discovered that there's one sure sign the person you're reading is a complete nimrod. if they say some variant of "We have to get back to the principles of Ronald Reagan" the person you're reading has no idea what he's talking about. 1980 was very different than today. When Reagan won there'd been a 10 year period of stagnation, today we've seen years of huge corporate profits. When Reagan won, the cold war was in full effect, now it's nonexistent. When Reagan won people were paying 50, 60 90% tax rates. Now even the rich seldom pay 35%. Who gave a crap about the environment in 1980? Granola muchers in Portland? Now anyone with a brain is concerned about the environment. When Reagan won, health care was a nonissue, now it's a total bankrupting crisis. In short, the conditions prevalent today could hardly be more different than the conditions of 1980, and accordingly, what was attractive then would be seen as irrelevant now, which surprise! the GOP is, which is why educated people see them as completely out of touch and voted Democrat.

The way forward is not a cultish worship of Most Holy Ronald. The way forward for the GOP is to understand why young, passionate, educated people are fleeing the GOP like it's a chemical fire. If you look at the demographic trends, a party that primarily appeals to the old, white, southern, rural, and uneducated is a party that is F*$%ed.

(edited for the grammar. I knew I was white, southern, and rural, but apparently I'm uneducated too)

These geographic comments are fascinating. I recall after Reagan's second election someone famous (but I can't recall who) saying the Democrats are dead because they can't win any state south of the Mason Dixon and west of the Mississippi.

My, how times have changed.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2008,14:39   

interesting article on the reemergence of American liberalism

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2008,15:26   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 14 2008,14:39)
interesting article on the reemergence of American liberalism

reemergence resmurgence. It's a preditor/prey balance. Every political movement plants the seeds of its eventual defeat.

Personally, my motto is eight years and out, regardless of party. Everyone who makes or enforces laws should have to live under them as an ordinary citizen.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2008,16:56   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 14 2008,17:24)
I blogged about the out-to-lunch-or-further-ness of Georgia Rep. Paul Broun and his speculation about Barack Obama playing 'what would you do if you were Hitler'.

Rep. Broun didn't show up in the comments, but a very conservative fellow did pop up to defend the Bush administration and castigate Obama, who he consistently refers to as "the socialist bastard".

It does go some way toward showing that politics and opposing religious antievolution are not completely correlated, since I happen to know this fellow, and he has been active in opposing creationist efforts. But we are having quite the back-and-forth over the current administration and the next one. As I note in my latest comment:

 
Quote

It wouldn’t hurt to be alert to abuses in any new administration, but I confess that I really don’t understand the exceptional animus displayed by Broun and now you concerning Obama.


The depth of emotion that some people have in reviling Obama does catch me by surprise.

I've had a look at the right wing sites and you have post after post of Obama is a muslim, antichrist etc. I think that this is the ultimate outcome of the republican methods and it is quite worrying.

They are obviously wrong, I think that even if it isn't real, Obama won on the messages of inclusiveness and being reality based. White people over 30 voted for McCain. White people under 30 voted overwhelmingly for Obama.

Outside of these bastions of the right, the web is overwhelming liberal and reality based. I have been using Digg and found out that based on Diggs, that left wing to right wing is around 100 to 1. Internet penetration isn't universal yet but what is it going to be like in 8 years time?

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2008,17:33   

Quote (bystander @ Nov. 14 2008,17:56)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 14 2008,17:24)
I blogged about the out-to-lunch-or-further-ness of Georgia Rep. Paul Broun and his speculation about Barack Obama playing 'what would you do if you were Hitler'.

Rep. Broun didn't show up in the comments, but a very conservative fellow did pop up to defend the Bush administration and castigate Obama, who he consistently refers to as "the socialist bastard".

It does go some way toward showing that politics and opposing religious antievolution are not completely correlated, since I happen to know this fellow, and he has been active in opposing creationist efforts. But we are having quite the back-and-forth over the current administration and the next one. As I note in my latest comment:

 
Quote

It wouldn’t hurt to be alert to abuses in any new administration, but I confess that I really don’t understand the exceptional animus displayed by Broun and now you concerning Obama.


The depth of emotion that some people have in reviling Obama does catch me by surprise.

I've had a look at the right wing sites and you have post after post of Obama is a muslim, antichrist etc. I think that this is the ultimate outcome of the republican methods and it is quite worrying.

They are obviously wrong, I think that even if it isn't real, Obama won on the messages of inclusiveness and being reality based. White people over 30 voted for McCain. White people under 30 voted overwhelmingly for Obama.

Outside of these bastions of the right, the web is overwhelming liberal and reality based. I have been using Digg and found out that based on Diggs, that left wing to right wing is around 100 to 1. Internet penetration isn't universal yet but what is it going to be like in 8 years time?

I'm white and (way) over 30 and I not only voted for Obama, I worked for his campaign; but then, I'm female and atheist.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2008,17:46   

I'm sort of a pink color.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2008,18:24   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 14 2008,15:46)
I'm sort of a pink color.

(stands up and begins to make comment re: Ras's use of word 'pink'...)

Naaah. Too easy.*



*Like Louis's mother.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2008,18:40   

I'm neither bro^wn nor sm^elly.  

:)    :)    :)

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2008,19:30   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 13 2008,23:54)
{snip}

The way forward is not a cultish worship of Most Holy Ronald. The way forward for the GOP is to understand why young, passionate, educated people are fleeing the GOP like it's a chemical fire. If you look at the demographic trends, a party that primarily appeals to the old, white, southern, rural, and uneducated is a party that is F*$%ed.

I always find this fascinating in that I completely fail to understand the Republican mindset.  On a completely academic level I get it, but I really don't understand it in a personally relevant way.

Republicans (at least the base) are socially conservative and philosophically conservative.  They are reactionary, not progressive.  They are the party of inertia, not of change.  IMO, they are afraid of change; they like the status quo more than they would ever back change of any kind.

This is closely related to the GOP Base's opinion of and behavior toward academia--a group of people who's very purpose in life is to seek out the new.

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2008,20:31   

Quote (blipey @ Nov. 15 2008,19:30)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 13 2008,23:54)
{snip}

The way forward is not a cultish worship of Most Holy Ronald. The way forward for the GOP is to understand why young, passionate, educated people are fleeing the GOP like it's a chemical fire. If you look at the demographic trends, a party that primarily appeals to the old, white, southern, rural, and uneducated is a party that is F*$%ed.

I always find this fascinating in that I completely fail to understand the Republican mindset.  On a completely academic level I get it, but I really don't understand it in a personally relevant way.

Republicans (at least the base) are socially conservative and philosophically conservative.  They are reactionary, not progressive.  They are the party of inertia, not of change.  IMO, they are afraid of change; they like the status quo more than they would ever back change of any kind.

This is closely related to the GOP Base's opinion of and behavior toward academia--a group of people who's very purpose in life is to seek out the new.

There was an interesting article in the NY Times a few days back, comparing the current Republican defeat with the situation of the Tories in the UK a while back. One suggestion for the Repubs from the article - "they had to look as if they actually liked the country they sought to govern, rather than wishing they could turn back time."

Not likely to happen anytime soon...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2008,12:46   

I've pretty much gone cold turkey on politics since the election, but this report caught my eye. If true, Obama is off to a poor start.

Excerpt:
Quote
But Mr. Obama's decision to use complete sentences in his public pronouncements carries with it certain risks, since after the last eight years many Americans may find his odd speaking style jarring.

According to presidential historian Davis Logsdon of the University of Minnesota, some Americans might find it "alienating" to have a President who speaks English as if it were his first language.

"Every time Obama opens his mouth, his subjects and verbs are in agreement," says Mr. Logsdon.  "If he keeps it up, he is running the risk of sounding like an elitist."


--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2008,12:59   

Quote

For his part, Mr. Bush took few questions from reporters today, saying that he had to return to the Oval Office to order random airstrikes over Belgium.


We'd certainly have the advantage of surprise.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2008,13:00   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 18 2008,12:46)
I've pretty much gone cold turkey on politics since the election, but this report caught my eye. If true, Obama is off to a poor start.

Excerpt:
   
Quote
But Mr. Obama's decision to use complete sentences in his public pronouncements carries with it certain risks, since after the last eight years many Americans may find his odd speaking style jarring.

According to presidential historian Davis Logsdon of the University of Minnesota, some Americans might find it "alienating" to have a President who speaks English as if it were his first language.

"Every time Obama opens his mouth, his subjects and verbs are in agreement," says Mr. Logsdon.  "If he keeps it up, he is running the risk of sounding like an elitist."

Oh, I think there's nothing to worry about.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2008,14:36   

Heddle - You, my man, have this to worry about.

PalinSpeak

Remember:  Palin is to talkin' what Denyse is to writin', also, she will be presidin' in that their too.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2008,14:49   

David,

At least Obama was cognizant that he was having difficulty getting the right words together in that particular case. Self-awareness hasn't been one of the things either Bush or Palin has been cursed with. And I wouldn't mind seeing an ethological analysis of a large ensemble of speaking opportunities from those three. I'd bet that Obama's proportion of complete, grammatically correct sentences would be far and away higher than for either Bush or Palin. He might even beat the added proportions for Bush and Palin.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2008,14:54   

Well sure, but can he see Russia from an island in his state of residence? Hmmm? ;)

  
Sealawr



Posts: 54
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2008,15:57   

Quote
Well sure, but can he see Russia from an island in his state of residence? Hmmm?


Well, he can see Canada.  That, at least, would be useful when Denyse "rears her head and comes into the air space of the United States of America."  

He could be a busy man.

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DS: "The explantory filter is as robust as the data that is used with it."
David Klinghoffer: ""I'm an IDiot"

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2008,16:08   

Quote
Well, he can see Canada.

Not from Illinois. ;)

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2008,21:36   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 18 2008,22:49)
David,

At least Obama was cognizant that he was having difficulty getting the right words together in that particular case. Self-awareness hasn't been one of the things either Bush or Palin has been cursed with. And I wouldn't mind seeing an ethological analysis of a large ensemble of speaking opportunities from those three. I'd bet that Obama's proportion of complete, grammatically correct sentences would be far and away higher than for either Bush or Palin. He might even beat the added proportions for Bush and Palin.

Yeah.

Somehow I think there might be something in the 'sounding like' an elitist thing.

To anyone with a half decent languages education having someone as eloquent as Jacques Chirac (giggle) in the White house is going to be a minty fresh taste burst for the ears.

However Caribou Barbie and ex-Pres. Shrub were cynically selected and very carefully constructed personae/masks intended for mass consumption by an equally carefully constructed great unwashed thanks to free as it has turned out  unlimited revolving Regan/Thatcher 'credit', 24 hour 'news', actually party propaganda and an education system where any test for actual reality based truth aka 'the scientific method' or *shriek* 'Darwinism" has been etoilated.

They 'sound like' ....erm very plain low grade no name carnival bubble gum incomparison.

Could you get anymore elitist than either of them?

Groomed for power and fed their lines from an early age they are as close as you will get to a monarchy in the so called republic.

Heck self awareness is the enemy, EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT!

Bush was nothing if not the consummate and perfect politician for his masters. Using a mixture of hokey god talk and 'no fat yogurt' magical social reality his internal voices instinctively knew how not to spook the heard(sic).

Using newspeak sound grabs and pumping it through Big Rupert's pipes direct to the speaker in the ceiling while purging the 'public service' apparatus right  from school boards up to the skull and bones club of state, military, education and industry almost ensured no one was going to step out of line lest they feared the torches, pitch forks, and assault rifles outside their ivory towers at midnight.

Those simpletons down in the village can be whipped up anytime into a force of righteous indignation by the PTB, GOP or DEM.

So I suggest that Obama get hisself into the Homer Simpson ....uh 'speakering in public skool' school. Oh and send a couple of (small) oil companies broke but not before trading his and his friends shares in them before they go under, smoke some crack mixed with the best sens., get seriously bent for years on the best sour mash whiskey money can buy, learn to fly a jet in a private air force for the very rich chosen few draft dodgers when there is a war going on on the other side of the world, misunderestimate Haliburton's fuel and cafeteria bill in Iraq then suppress the body count to midnight, hook up with Osama's brothers and sisters on a few building projects in the UAE, play a lot of golf with other princes of the republic, go hunting and fishing with the non combatants running the industrial military complex. Accept Jesus (again).  Bug everyone for crimethink.

....He's doomed isn't he?

"Oranges and lemons
Say the bells of St. Clements
I owe you five farthings
Say the bells of St. Martins
When will you pay me?
Say the bells at Old Bailey
When I grow rich
Say the bells at Shoreditch
When will that be?
Say the bells of Stepney
I'm sure I don't know
Says the great bell of Bow

Here comes a candle to light you to bed
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head

Chip chop chip chop the last man's HEAD!

George Orwell "1984"


Edited lots of times ....for the fun of it.

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,08:15   

oh you are so cynical.

<hiccup>

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,08:22   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Nov. 19 2008,16:15)
oh you are so cynical.

<hiccup>

thankyou

<snirk>

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,09:20   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Nov. 19 2008,06:15)
oh you are so cynical.

<hiccup>

Get a room, fella(s).  :angry:

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:18   

shorter Kathleen Parker: 'The religious right is a bunch of tards'.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:24   

http://washingtonmonthly.com/

Quote
Al-Zawahri says in an audio message, which appeared on militant Web sites Wednesday, that Obama is "the direct opposite of honorable black Americans" like Malcolm X. He calls Obama a "house negro."


Will republicans side with Obama? Or with the terrorists?

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:30   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 19 2008,12:24)
http://washingtonmonthly.com/

 
Quote
Al-Zawahri says in an audio message, which appeared on militant Web sites Wednesday, that Obama is "the direct opposite of honorable black Americans" like Malcolm X. He calls Obama a "house negro."


I'm confused. Isn't Obama supposed to be a Muslim terrorist?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:31   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 19 2008,14:24)
http://washingtonmonthly.com/

Quote
Al-Zawahri says in an audio message, which appeared on militant Web sites Wednesday, that Obama is "the direct opposite of honorable black Americans" like Malcolm X. He calls Obama a "house negro."


Will republicans side with Obama? Or with the terrorists?

It's a small step from sleeping with an Alaskan Secessionist to Palling Around With Terrorists, so I say the Repubs will side with the terrorists.

What Do I win, now that I got the correct answer?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:37   

I should have linked to Parker's actual column. She basically says that if the GOP appeals to its base in the future they'll be totally boned.

http://townhall.com/columni....?page=1

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:39   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 19 2008,15:30)
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 19 2008,12:24)
http://washingtonmonthly.com/

   
Quote
Al-Zawahri says in an audio message, which appeared on militant Web sites Wednesday, that Obama is "the direct opposite of honorable black Americans" like Malcolm X. He calls Obama a "house negro."


I'm confused. Isn't Obama supposed to be a Muslim terrorist?

He's a crypto-muslim terrorist. So crypto that the other muslim terrorists don't know about him. He's like the Mission Impossible muslim terrorist.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:44   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 19 2008,12:37)
I should have linked to Parker's actual column. She basically says that if the GOP appeals to its base in the future they'll be totally boned.

http://townhall.com/columni....?page=1

Quote
Simply put: Armband religion is killing the Republican Party.


'Armband religion'. Ouch.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:46   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 19 2008,15:44)
http://townhall.com/columni....?page=1[/quote]
Quote
Simply put: Armband religion is killing the Republican Party.


'Armband religion'. Ouch.

I would hate to be a republican strategist these days. How do you figure out how to appeal to young, smart, unbigoted people, while simultaneously keeping your base of bigoted anti-science people?

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:50   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 19 2008,12:39)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 19 2008,15:30)
     
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 19 2008,12:24)
http://washingtonmonthly.com/

         
Quote
Al-Zawahri says in an audio message, which appeared on militant Web sites Wednesday, that Obama is "the direct opposite of honorable black Americans" like Malcolm X. He calls Obama a "house negro."


I'm confused. Isn't Obama supposed to be a Muslim terrorist?

He's a crypto-muslim terrorist. So crypto that the other muslim terrorists don't know about him. He's like the Mission Impossible muslim terrorist.

Sort of a Manchurian Candidate type thing?

Gotta admit, that *is* pretty cool. Makes McCain look pretty damn boring. Perhaps Obama should pass the time with a game of solitaire?

Oh, speaking of Grampa McCain... (be sure and click on the captions)

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:53   

Wait, this just in, we're catching up! The electoral college will not be televised!

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:57   

And the base responds by trying to disown Parker.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,14:59   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 19 2008,12:53)
Wait, this just in, we're catching up! The electoral college will not be televised!

So if it's not Missouri anymore, who *is* America's current bellwether state? Colorado? Ohio?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,15:02   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 19 2008,14:46)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 19 2008,15:44)
http://townhall.com/columni....?page=1

 
Quote
Simply put: Armband religion is killing the Republican Party.


'Armband religion'. Ouch.[/quote]
I would hate to be a republican strategist these days. How do you figure out how to appeal to young, smart, unbigoted people, while simultaneously keeping your base of bigoted anti-science people?

Promise them all the free drugs and sex they want as long as they are willing to relocate to Guantanamo Bay.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,15:06   

Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 19 2008,14:53)
Wait, this just in, we're catching up! The electoral college will not be televised!

Scenes from McCain-Palin 2008 headquarters.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,15:25   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 19 2008,14:30)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 19 2008,12:24)
http://washingtonmonthly.com/

     
Quote
Al-Zawahri says in an audio message, which appeared on militant Web sites Wednesday, that Obama is "the direct opposite of honorable black Americans" like Malcolm X. He calls Obama a "house negro."


I'm confused. Isn't Obama supposed to be a Muslim terrorist?

Of course they will side with the terrorists. Is there a scintilla of difference between Al-Zawahiri's rhetoric and Limbaugh's "Barack the Magic Negro" ditty?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,15:29   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 19 2008,15:37)
I should have linked to Parker's actual column. She basically says that if the GOP appeals to its base in the future they'll be totally boned.

http://townhall.com/columni....?page=1

Quote
One party was brimming with energy, youth and diversity; the other felt like an annual Depends sales meeting.


--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,16:01   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 19 2008,15:06)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 19 2008,14:53)
Wait, this just in, we're catching up! The electoral college will not be televised!

Scenes from McCain-Palin 2008 headquarters.

Absolutely brilliant.  It touched me.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Reed



Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,19:03   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 19 2008,12:30)
Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 19 2008,12:24)
http://washingtonmonthly.com/

   
Quote
Al-Zawahri says in an audio message, which appeared on militant Web sites Wednesday, that Obama is "the direct opposite of honorable black Americans" like Malcolm X. He calls Obama a "house negro."


I'm confused. Isn't Obama supposed to be a Muslim terrorist?

You aren't the only one.

:D

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2008,22:42   

Quote (J-Dog @ Nov. 19 2008,17:01)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 19 2008,15:06)
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 19 2008,14:53)
Wait, this just in, we're catching up! The electoral college will not be televised!

Scenes from McCain-Palin 2008 headquarters.

Absolutely brilliant.  It touched me.

No, that was Arden who touched you.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2008,08:52   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 19 2008,20:42)
Quote (J-Dog @ Nov. 19 2008,17:01)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 19 2008,15:06)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 19 2008,14:53)
Wait, this just in, we're catching up! The electoral college will not be televised!

Scenes from McCain-Palin 2008 headquarters.

Absolutely brilliant.  It touched me.

No, that was Arden who touched you.

Jeez, Lou. Even I passed on that joke. Even Louis did.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2008,09:16   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 20 2008,08:52)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 19 2008,20:42)
 
Quote (J-Dog @ Nov. 19 2008,17:01)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 19 2008,15:06)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 19 2008,14:53)
Wait, this just in, we're catching up! The electoral college will not be televised!

Scenes from McCain-Palin 2008 headquarters.

Absolutely brilliant.  It touched me.

No, that was Arden who touched you.

Jeez, Lou. Even I passed on that joke. Even Louis did.

The Nixplanatory Filter predicted that somebody would pick up on the comment, it just didn't tell me who...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2008,10:25   

Maybe somebody should offer a notpology for the alleged joke? ;)

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2008,13:21   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 20 2008,10:25)
Maybe somebody should offer a notpology for the alleged joke? ;)

I'll give a bottle of Dalwhinnie to first person who does so.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2008,16:16   

Well, I'm not around all day anymore, having less important things to tend to these days, so I have to take what's available when I happen to be here.

Poor pickin's you guys leave y'know.

P.S. I'd be very sorry for having made such a lame joke from such an easy set-up, if it weren't possibly true.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2008,18:00   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 20 2008,16:16)
Well, I'm not around all day anymore, having less important things to tend to these days, so I have to take what's available when I happen to be here.

Poor pickin's you guys leave y'know.

P.S. I'd be very sorry for having made such a lame joke from such an easy set-up, if it weren't possibly true.

I think you mean that you are sorry people did not see the humour in the joke - remember to put the blame in the right place.

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All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2008,18:10   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 20 2008,14:16)
Well, I'm not around all day anymore, having less important things to tend to these days, so I have to take what's available when I happen to be here.

Poor pickin's you guys leave y'know.

P.S. I'd be very sorry for having made such a lame joke from such an easy set-up, if it weren't possibly true.

Finally, and by a complete coincidence, a lolcat specifically for Lou:



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2008,05:24   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 21 2008,02:10)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 20 2008,14:16)
Well, I'm not around all day anymore, having less important things to tend to these days, so I have to take what's available when I happen to be here.

Poor pickin's you guys leave y'know.

P.S. I'd be very sorry for having made such a lame joke from such an easy set-up, if it weren't possibly true.

Finally, and by a complete coincidence, a lolcat specifically for Lou:


YOU R SUCH A PUSSY

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2008,16:43   

If there is a god, (s)he really must not want Sarah Palin to be president.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dochocson



Posts: 62
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2008,18:25   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 21 2008,14:43)
If there is a god, (s)he really must not want Sarah Palin to be president.


Her god opened a door for her, but she went out the window...

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All bleeding stops...eventually.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2008,19:10   

You guys having tofurkey for thanksgiving?

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2008,19:24   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Nov. 21 2008,17:10)
You guys having tofurkey for thanksgiving?

Absolutely not. The living conditions for factory-farmed tofu are horrific.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2008,19:31   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Nov. 21 2008,20:10)
You guys having tofurkey for thanksgiving?

Roast duck, wild rice, asparagus, asti spumante; it's my own personal tradition.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2008,06:22   

Quote (khan @ Nov. 21 2008,20:31)
Roast duck, wild rice, asparagus, asti spumante; it's my own personal tradition.

<----- jealous

Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 22 2008,07:23

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2008,09:16   

The TRUE NFL Theory,
or
Why There Is No God

Two words that prove my point - Detroit Lions.
No god would force us to watch an 0-11 team play on the most High Holy Days of NFL watching.

No god would contrive a situation where we might actually have to have a dialogue with relatives, rather tan becoming engrossed in a sportacular football game instead.

Party on dudes and dudettes.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2008,10:06   

Quote (J-Dog @ Nov. 22 2008,07:16)
The TRUE NFL Theory,
or
Why There Is No God

Two words that prove my point - Detroit Lions.
No god would force us to watch an 0-11 team play on the most High Holy Days of NFL watching.

No god would contrive a situation where we might actually have to have a dialogue with relatives, rather than becoming engrossed in a sportacular football game instead.

Party on dudes and dudettes.

As it happens, I was in Michigan for two weeks during the NFL exhibition season. The Detroit sportswriters were talking playoffs, I kid you not. In Paris, France! OK, I made up the France part, but the general feeling was that Calvin Johnson was a star as of immediately and that the Lions might do as well as 10-6 if things fell the right way.

I did some quick googling to find an article to back my memory, but the only article I found was 404ed. Et tu, Detroit Free Press? I did one search on the Freep page for "Detroit Lions Playoffs." The search came up with nothing and asked, "did you mean Detroit Lions Payoffs?" That tickled my funny bone on this Saturday morning.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2008,10:17   

Quote (khan @ Nov. 21 2008,20:31)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Nov. 21 2008,20:10)
You guys having tofurkey for thanksgiving?

Roast duck, wild rice, asparagus, asti spumante; it's my own personal tradition.

Well Khan, we'll all hang out here and have an After the Bar Closes Thanksgiving.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2008,10:19   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 20 2008,09:52)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 19 2008,20:42)
 
Quote (J-Dog @ Nov. 19 2008,17:01)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 19 2008,15:06)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Nov. 19 2008,14:53)
Wait, this just in, we're catching up! The electoral college will not be televised!

Scenes from McCain-Palin 2008 headquarters.

Absolutely brilliant.  It touched me.

No, that was Arden who touched you.

Jeez, Lou. Even I passed on that joke. Even Louis did.

:D

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2008,10:41   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 22 2008,11:17)
Quote (khan @ Nov. 21 2008,20:31)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Nov. 21 2008,20:10)
You guys having tofurkey for thanksgiving?

Roast duck, wild rice, asparagus, asti spumante; it's my own personal tradition.

Well Khan, we'll all hang out here and have an After the Bar Closes Thanksgiving.

I'll be here.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2008,12:52   

I give up. I can't tell if this is satire or not:

 
Quote
BREITBART: The kids are all right
Andrew Breitbart
Monday, November 24, 2008

As the Republican blame game and political infighting rages with no end in sight, here's an unorthodox fast-track plan for a full-scale GOP recovery in 2010.

The future of the Grand Old Party needs to be dangerously youthful, devastatingly attractive and outrageously fun.

Throw the liberal baby boomer bums out. And let's elect to higher office some good-looking, freedom-loving Net Generation babes. Face it: Democracy needs a face-lift and a youth movement. (I'm from Los Angeles, what can I tell you?)

If you don't believe me, check out my representative, Henry A. Waxman, California Democrat. Or worse, Google him. During Mr. Waxman's 33-year congressional run, Hollywood has lost billions of dollars in productions to Canada and Mexico. And it's not because of his tax policies alone.

With the economy in the pits, the young, the restless and unapologetically handsome should use their looks, vigor and Internet knowledge to wrest away elective office from joyless bureaucrats who gallingly repackaged the soiled utopian promises of their overly replayed Woodstock days as "hope" and "change."

Those young adults who weren't duped this time around can be at the forefront of cluing in their friends that were.

In Facebook I trust. Heroes coming back from war will lead the GOP resurgence. I like to call it the second Surge.

After bravely kicking al Qaeda out of Iraq, what better group than unapologetic military veterans to fumigate Congress of the "No, We Can't" political mercenaries of George Soros who tried to sell them out at the hour of their greatest need?

The suburban Mall Rats will be the first Obamacons to come back to the fold when they realize that trickle-up socialism limits their lifestyle options. So let's stop first at Abercrombie and Fitch. See those shirtless models in the storefront tossing footballs in the air?


--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2008,13:24   

Quote
See those shirtless models in the storefront tossing footballs in the air?

Looks like they're rallying the Ted Haggard base.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2008,14:10   

Quote (JohnW @ Nov. 24 2008,13:24)
Quote
See those shirtless models in the storefront tossing footballs in the air?

Looks like they're rallying the Ted Haggard base.

Do we have a "One-Liner Of The Week" Award?
Cuz this gets my vote!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 30 2008,12:28   

UFO enthusiasts call on Obama to release X-Files

Quote
They believe they have good prospects of success after public statements of support from both John Podesta, who is running Mr Obama's White House transition team, and Bill Richardson, the Governor of New Mexico - a UFO sighting hotspot - who is expected to secure a cabinet post.


--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 30 2008,12:40   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Nov. 30 2008,13:28)
UFO enthusiasts call on Obama to release X-Files

Quote
They believe they have good prospects of success after public statements of support from both John Podesta, who is running Mr Obama's White House transition team, and Bill Richardson, the Governor of New Mexico - a UFO sighting hotspot - who is expected to secure a cabinet post.

I live near (and retired from) Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.  These clowns spend a lot of time asking for information about the alien bodies and artifacts they 'know' are located here.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 30 2008,13:07   

Good science from politicians is a game of wack-a-mole.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 05 2008,17:02   

Remember this?
Quote
X-Sender: [Dembski’s email at discovery.org] (Unverified) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 21:11:27 -0600 To: Richard Dawkins [email] From: “William A. Dembski” [email] Subject: President Bush Cc: “Eugenie C. Scott” [email], [Daniel Dennett email], [Paul Gross email], [Barbara Forrest email]

Dear Prof. Dawkins,

I enjoyed this bit of fun in last week’s Guardian. It might interest you to know that Senator Rick Santorum, who is close to President Bush, endorsed my forthcoming book The Design Revolution. It might also interest you to know that President Bush lives in the same Texas county that I do (McLennan County – his home is about 35 miles from my home). It might futher interest you to know that my university, Baylor, today made a bid on the George W. Bush Presidential Library (for the news conference, go to www.baylortv.com).

Why might all this interest you? With the recommendations by Senator Santorum and others close to President Bush, I plan to pay him a visit at his home early next year and have a frank discussion with him about the future of science in the United States and the possibilities for public funding of intelligent design research. I expect your remarks below will help me make my case.

Thanks for all you continue to do to advance the work of intelligent design. You are an instrument in the hands of Providence however much you rail against it.

With all good wishes, Bill Dembski

That didn't work out so well.  You think Dembski's brushing off his famous sweater for a visit with President Obama?   :p

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 05 2008,17:17   

Quote (keiths @ Dec. 05 2008,17:02)
Remember this?
Quote
X-Sender: [Dembski’s email at discovery.org] (Unverified) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 21:11:27 -0600 To: Richard Dawkins [email] From: “William A. Dembski” [email] Subject: President Bush Cc: “Eugenie C. Scott” [email], [Daniel Dennett email], [Paul Gross email], [Barbara Forrest email]

Dear Prof. Dawkins,

I enjoyed this bit of fun in last week’s Guardian. It might interest you to know that Senator Rick Santorum, who is close to President Bush, endorsed my forthcoming book The Design Revolution. It might also interest you to know that President Bush lives in the same Texas county that I do (McLennan County – his home is about 35 miles from my home). It might futher interest you to know that my university, Baylor, today made a bid on the George W. Bush Presidential Library (for the news conference, go to www.baylortv.com).

Why might all this interest you? With the recommendations by Senator Santorum and others close to President Bush, I plan to pay him a visit at his home early next year and have a frank discussion with him about the future of science in the United States and the possibilities for public funding of intelligent design research. I expect your remarks below will help me make my case.

Thanks for all you continue to do to advance the work of intelligent design. You are an instrument in the hands of Providence however much you rail against it.

With all good wishes, Bill Dembski

That didn't work out so well.  You think Dembski's brushing off his famous sweater for a visit with President Obama?   :p

I'd bet that Dembski has as much chance of getting in to see Obama as he does of getting into the Baylor cafeteria.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2008,13:09   

Quote (keiths @ Dec. 05 2008,18:02)
Remember this?
Quote
X-Sender: [Dembski’s email at discovery.org] (Unverified) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 21:11:27 -0600 To: Richard Dawkins [email] From: “William A. Dembski” [email] Subject: President Bush Cc: “Eugenie C. Scott” [email], [Daniel Dennett email], [Paul Gross email], [Barbara Forrest email]

Dear Prof. Dawkins,

I enjoyed this bit of fun in last week’s Guardian. It might interest you to know that Senator Rick Santorum, who is close to President Bush, endorsed my forthcoming book The Design Revolution. It might also interest you to know that President Bush lives in the same Texas county that I do (McLennan County – his home is about 35 miles from my home). It might futher interest you to know that my university, Baylor, today made a bid on the George W. Bush Presidential Library (for the news conference, go to www.baylortv.com).

Why might all this interest you? With the recommendations by Senator Santorum and others close to President Bush, I plan to pay him a visit at his home early next year and have a frank discussion with him about the future of science in the United States and the possibilities for public funding of intelligent design research. I expect your remarks below will help me make my case.

Thanks for all you continue to do to advance the work of intelligent design. You are an instrument in the hands of Providence however much you rail against it.

With all good wishes, Bill Dembski

That didn't work out so well.  You think Dembski's brushing off his famous sweater for a visit with President Obama?   :p

If only DDrr.. Dembski had had that little chat with Shrub, he could have prevented the lame duck defection to evilution.



Evidence of Backsliding

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2008,13:16   

Looks like people are either:

1. a la Ben Stein, redefining intelligent design as creationism, or
2. a la George Bush, mistaking it for theistic evolution.

Oops.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2008,13:17   

P.S. History of creationism/ID book title idea:

The Design Evolution.

I thought of it. :)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,11:07   

Obama just appointed this man to be the head of the Department of Energy.

He appears not to be an oil company lobbyist, from what I can tell. Maybe just maybe the Republican War on Science will be on hold for at least 4-8 years?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,12:32   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 11 2008,09:07)
Obama just appointed this man to be the head of the Department of Energy.

He appears not to be an oil company lobbyist, from what I can tell. Maybe just maybe the Republican War on Science will be on hold for at least 4-8 years?

I have met Stephen Chu and heard him speak. He is a passionate advocate for using science and technology to address global warming's causes and effects. He has worked tirelessly to jump start alternative energy programs at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory. He is a terrific choice for this post, and the idea that he will have the ear of the President of this nation is thrilling, satisfying, and reassuring. No longer will we have college drop-outs telling NASA senior scientists what they can publish.

Elections really do matter.

By the way, check out this comment on the New York Times' first tiny mention of this news last night:

Quote
If Obama is truly serious about being bipartisan, why doesn’t he choose Sarah Palin as energy czar? Everyone agrees she’s an energy expert. I’m sure she knows more than Chu or Browner, and she certainly has more experience than Chu.


Yikes! Actually, she almost surely does have more experience with, say, petroleum markets than does Chu, but she ain't no energy expert, and her vision is not where we need to go.

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,13:18   

The Worm Squirms

I heard this during my drive to work this morning and laughed out loud in my car. The silence is deafening near the end when Duncan has literally NO answer to the question - is it accurate to say that the Republican Party has been too close to the religious right?

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,13:28   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Dec. 11 2008,11:18)
The silence is deafening near the end when Duncan has literally NO answer to the question - is it accurate to say that the Republican Party has been too close to the religious right?

Wow, THREE times Duncan refuses to answer the question actually asked. That should win some kind of Weaselly Nonanswer Award of the year.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,13:43   

Steve Chu's name can be found in familiar places.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,15:50   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 11 2008,13:43)
Steve Chu's name can be found in familiar places.

:O  He's a Steve Steve's Steve!

*shimmy!* *shimmy!* *shimmy!*  :) Is it true? Is it really, really, true that we have an intelligent and hawt Prez?

Evangelicals shocked by Bush comments.
     
Quote
George W. Bush's recent statement that he believes the Bible is "probably not" literally true has apparently left many Christian conservatives reeling in shock.

David Brody of the Christian Broadcasting Network told CNN"s John Roberts on Thursday, "I think a lot of social conservative evangelicals were surprised -- probably grabbing the smelling salts as we speak."

Bush made the controversial statement during a Monday interview on ABC's Nightline. When asked whether he thinks the Bible is literally true, he replied, "Probably not. No, I'm not a literalist, but I think you can learn a lot from it."

One blogger at the conservative Washington Times, commented the next morning, "I already have an e-mail from a former Bush administration official who writes, 'This just completely alienated his evangelical supporters.'"

Bush further stated in the interview, "I think that God created the Earth ... and I don't think it's incompatible with the scientific proof that there is evolution."...

Some evangelicals, however, claim they were not surprised by Bush's remarks. A blog titled "The Moral Collapse Of America" pointed out after the interview that "George W. Bush's religious beliefs are not compatible with evangelical Christianity," because "Bush has openly said many times that Christians, Muslims and all other religions pray to the same God."

Ding-a-lings. They'd better keep those smelling salts close by.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,15:56   

Quote

Brody suggested that Bush may have merely been referring to what creationists call "microevolution" -- small-scale changes that do not rise to the level of creating new species. However, he didn't appear altogether confident, telling Roberts, "The problem was, the president didn't seem all that -- if you want to use the word -- coherent on the subject."




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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,18:23   

We don't often see Bush on the television up here in Canada, but the last few times I've seen him he's looked a thoroughly beaten man. I wonder if it is finally getting through to him that he has not been a success, even by his own lights?

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All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
RupertG



Posts: 80
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,18:43   

Can it be true? Has Bush just gone demob happy, and has Obama really appointed a world-class scientist with all the right chops to be energy czar?

I'm... speechless with teh happy.

--------------
Uncle Joe and Aunty Mabel
Fainted at the breakfast table
Children, let this be a warning
Never do it in the morning -- Ralph Vaughan Williams

  
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,18:44   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Dec. 11 2008,13:18)
The Worm Squirms

I heard this during my drive to work this morning and laughed out loud in my car. The silence is deafening near the end when Duncan has literally NO answer to the question - is it accurate to say that the Republican Party has been too close to the religious right?

Thank you so much. I have never really understood the meaning of the epithet "tool" - that interview opened my eyes. What a tool!

Oh, and a slimy Mc-slimerson.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,21:38   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Dec. 11 2008,13:18)
The Worm Squirms

I heard this during my drive to work this morning and laughed out loud in my car. The silence is deafening near the end when Duncan has literally NO answer to the question - is it accurate to say that the Republican Party has been too close to the religious right?

It's just dumbfounding every time you get a little glimpse into the Republican mind.  Duncan's plan for the GOP is to come up with "new words" for the masses.

It's a sad thing when your entire strategy is not only communicated in soundbites, but instead consists of nothing but soundbites.  Does it not strike anyone in the RNC that they might not be able to catchphrase their way to relevancy?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,22:05   

1 I don't think Bush was any less coherent than the average theistic evolutionist would be if you put a microphone up to them and suddenly asked them about evolution. Most people don't think about science much and their thoughts on it are sometimes jumbled.

2 Can someone tell me what the Duncan thing is about? I have tech problems with npr's site and can't listen to the audio.

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2008,04:33   

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 11 2008,22:05)
2 Can someone tell me what the Duncan thing is about? I have tech problems with npr's site and can't listen to the audio.

The interview was about change in the GOP. Duncan's main point was that what they need is a better sales pitch, not change in their core message.

The interviewer quoted a web comment from a GOP  web site that suggested the party move away from the religious right and asked if that person was wrong to believe that some groups had disproportionate influence in the party.






(Sound of starter motor fighting a losing battle on cold morning. Dust settles noisily.)

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2008,07:41   

Quote (Kristine @ Dec. 11 2008,16:50)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 11 2008,13:43)
Steve Chu's name can be found in familiar places.

:O  He's a Steve Steve's Steve!

*shimmy!* *shimmy!* *shimmy!*  :) Is it true? Is it really, really, true that we have an intelligent and hawt Prez?

Evangelicals shocked by Bush comments.
     
Quote
George W. Bush's recent statement that he believes the Bible is "probably not" literally true has apparently left many Christian conservatives reeling in shock.

David Brody of the Christian Broadcasting Network told CNN"s John Roberts on Thursday, "I think a lot of social conservative evangelicals were surprised -- probably grabbing the smelling salts as we speak."

Bush made the controversial statement during a Monday interview on ABC's Nightline. When asked whether he thinks the Bible is literally true, he replied, "Probably not. No, I'm not a literalist, but I think you can learn a lot from it."

One blogger at the conservative Washington Times, commented the next morning, "I already have an e-mail from a former Bush administration official who writes, 'This just completely alienated his evangelical supporters.'"

Bush further stated in the interview, "I think that God created the Earth ... and I don't think it's incompatible with the scientific proof that there is evolution."...

Some evangelicals, however, claim they were not surprised by Bush's remarks. A blog titled "The Moral Collapse Of America" pointed out after the interview that "George W. Bush's religious beliefs are not compatible with evangelical Christianity," because "Bush has openly said many times that Christians, Muslims and all other religions pray to the same God."

Ding-a-lings. They'd better keep those smelling salts close by.

Since he no longer even needs to appear like he is scratching at the feet of the rel. right maybe he wants the rest of us to not think so ill of his intelligence.
.
.
.
Yea, right, like that's ever going to happen.

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2008,10:20   

Quote (Amadan @ Dec. 12 2008,04:33)
     
Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 11 2008,22:05)
2 Can someone tell me what the Duncan thing is about? I have tech problems with npr's site and can't listen to the audio.

The interview was about change in the GOP. Duncan's main point was that what they need is a better sales pitch, not change in their core message.

The interviewer quoted a web comment from a GOP  web site that suggested the party move away from the religious right and asked if that person was wrong to believe that some groups had disproportionate influence in the party.






(Sound of starter motor fighting a losing battle on cold morning. Dust settles noisily.)

So, in other words, they're going to spell it out with pom-poms, in the hopes of spawning numerous sequels.

Get ready for "Palin Wig Out 2: Mad about the Moose."

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 15 2008,13:40   

Even McCain now says he won't necessarily support Palin for president.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 15 2008,13:49   

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 15 2008,13:40)
Even McCain now says he won't necessarily support Palin for president.

Maverick!

Oh, wait...

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 15 2008,13:56   

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 15 2008,11:40)
Even McCain now says he won't necessarily support Palin for president.

No worries. Heddle and FTK will stay loyal.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 15 2008,15:42   

In Other News...

Moral Dilemma:  To Shoe, or Not To Shoe?

The Shoe Heard Round The World hurt nobody, but is throwing shoes to be encouraged?

No actual shoes (or dumb-ass Presdent's either) were harmed in the incident, so does that make it ok?

What if Bush didn't duck, fell over,  hit his head on the podium, monkey's escaped from his cranium, and Cheney would be Our President for 37 days?

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 15 2008,16:51   

i have to say i was proud of the fool for laughing about it in between shoes.  he was bobbing and weaving pretty good too, and that laugh made me think he was maybe talking shit in his head.  "sup suckah is one flip flop all you got...  lucky i don't strut out there stick one of these here boots up in yer ass".

if you ever wanted an unscripted moment to peer into his unguarded persona this was it.  the bit i saw him speak about it he was composed again.  

i would have liked to see them get at fisticuff or pistols at dawn or roshambeaux to the death or something but i wasn't consulted for some damn reason.  

that would be some youtube footage to get excited about

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 15 2008,17:36   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Dec. 15 2008,14:51)
i would have liked to see them get at fisticuff or pistols at dawn or roshambeaux to the death or something but i wasn't consulted for some damn reason.  

that would be some youtube footage to get excited about

Canadian Prime Minister vs protester a few years back:



That's PM Jean Chretien on the right.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 09 2009,22:21   

GOVERNOR SARAH PALIN DOES EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW FOR
"MEDIA MALPRACTICE" DOCUMENTARY

http://www.howobamagotelected.com/

Blithering idiot.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
digitus impudicus



Posts: 62
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 09 2009,23:02   

very true khan

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,07:32   

She's utterly oblivious.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,13:16   

Quote
"She Doesn't Have a Well-Informed Worldview."

Mrs Frum appeared on The O'Reilly Factor last night to discuss Gov. Sarah Palin's interview for John Ziegler's "How Obama Got Elected" project. But the negative words quoted in the headlines aren't Danielle's. They were the words of Sen. Rick Santorum, invited onto the show to champion Palin.

It's pretty bad when even your supporters call you ignorant.


link. h/t Balloon Juice

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,21:57   

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 10 2009,11:16)
Quote
"She Doesn't Have a Well-Informed Worldview."

Mrs Frum appeared on The O'Reilly Factor last night to discuss Gov. Sarah Palin's interview for John Ziegler's "How Obama Got Elected" project. But the negative words quoted in the headlines aren't Danielle's. They were the words of Sen. Rick Santorum, invited onto the show to champion Palin.

It's pretty bad when even your supporters call you ignorant.


link. h/t Balloon Juice

"She Doesn't Have a Well-Informed Worldview." = Republicanese for "she's a dumbass".

Nice article, esp. from someone who was a Neocon apologist for Bush for so long. Rest assured it's not what NRO's loyal readers want to hear.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,16:27   

Robinson's Participation in Inauguration Might Cause God to Destroy Washington DC

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,16:37   

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 17 2009,14:27)
Robinson's Participation in Inauguration Might Cause God to Destroy Washington DC

Do we get to point at them and laugh when it doesn't happen?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,16:41   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Jan. 17 2009,17:37)
Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 17 2009,14:27)
Robinson's Participation in Inauguration Might Cause God to Destroy Washington DC

Do we get to point at them and laugh when it doesn't happen?

I think we get to point and laugh at them either way.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,16:45   

We ALWAYS get to point and laugh at them. I especially liked the guy who said this was "the most perverted inaugural in history".

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,16:52   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 17 2009,14:41)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Jan. 17 2009,17:37)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 17 2009,14:27)
Robinson's Participation in Inauguration Might Cause God to Destroy Washington DC

Do we get to point at them and laugh when it doesn't happen?

I think we get to point and laugh at them either way.

A classic statement of the Fundie terror of their kids catching teh Gay:

 
Quote
The inauguration of Barack Obama as the President of the United States is going to be historic for many reasons, not all of them good. Obama’s inauguration may help move race relations forward in America, but Obama’s inaugural events are a major step backwards for historic Christian values. CADC must issue this WARNING message: Don’t let your children watch!


Quote
I especially liked the guy who said this was "the most perverted inaugural in history".


We wish.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,16:52   

That much concentrated stoopid should be illegal.

Of course, that would deprive us of the entertainment of UD, Conservapedia, etc.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
ppb



Posts: 325
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,10:27   

At last, that village in Texas has to take back their idiot.  Happy day!

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"[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."
- Richard P. Feynman

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,10:40   

Weird to see Cheney in a wheelchair. I guess his pact with the Prince of Darkness has now expired.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,10:49   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Jan. 20 2009,10:40)
Weird to see Cheney in a wheelchair. I guess his pact with the Prince of Darkness has now expired.

And remember what happened to OJ in a wheel chair as Detective Nordstrom...*

and remember even better what has happened to OJ since!

Another Warning Not To Do Evil brought to you by Teh Front Loadin' Designer.



* For you kidz out there, this a reference to a movie from ancient history, or at least back to @ 1988.  Back to the Cheney link, OJ is in a wheelchair, and gets bounced down @ 1000 steps .... quite funny, and even funnier if it happens to Cheney.

Naked Gun - Another Movie WAY better than Expelled

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,11:03   

It's official, Cheney is once again a private citizen, free to slink back to whatever undisclosed location he'll use from now on.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,11:07   

Even tho he hasn't taken the oath yet, it's past 12 noon DC time, Obama legally is now president.

Holy shit. This hasn't sunk in yet.

[sorry, this should have been posted here.]

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
noncarborundum



Posts: 320
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,11:12   

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 17 2009,16:45)
We ALWAYS get to point and laugh at them. I especially liked the guy who said this was "the most perverted inaugural in history".

In my own humble way I must take a modicum of credit for this.

Back when the selection of Rick Warren for the inaugural invocation was a hot topic, one commenter on scienceblogs (I think it was at Ed Brayton's place) challenged another to name a Christian leader who was not anti-gay.  I piped up and mentioned Gene Robinson*.

Apparently someone from the Obama team was listening.  (That, or the choice of Robinson was just insanely obvious.  I can't decide.)  And when God smites Washington, D.C., boy will I be chagrined.

-----
*Yes, I knew that by "Christian", the commenter I was responding to meant "fundywacko True Christian™", and that by his lights G.R. doesn't qualify.

--------------
"The . . . um . . . okay, I was genetically selected for blue eyes.  I know there are brown eyes, because I've observed them, but I can't do it.  Okay?  So . . . um . . . coz that's real genetic selection, not the nonsense Giberson and the others are talking about." - DO'L

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,11:38   

Well, yes, that's it! Obama is President. And thanks to him for the "and non-believers" in his speech. It gives hope...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
dhogaza



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,11:41   

Quote
Even tho he hasn't taken the oath yet, it's past 12 noon DC time, Obama legally is now president

Actually, Biden, already sworn in, was acting president during the gap.

Didn't do much with his few minutes of fame, did he? :)

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,11:52   

Quote (dhogaza @ Jan. 20 2009,11:41)
Quote
Even tho he hasn't taken the oath yet, it's past 12 noon DC time, Obama legally is now president

Actually, Biden, already sworn in, was acting president during the gap.

Didn't do much with his few minutes of fame, did he? :)

I'm not sure if you were joking about that or not, so I'll just point out the Twentieth Amendment, section 1:

Quote
Section 1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.


At noon today, Bush's term ended and Obama's began.

--------------
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,11:52   

Quote (dhogaza @ Jan. 20 2009,09:41)
Quote
Even tho he hasn't taken the oath yet, it's past 12 noon DC time, Obama legally is now president

Actually, Biden, already sworn in, was acting president during the gap.

Didn't do much with his few minutes of fame, did he? :)

I don't think so... I think the law says the new Prez takes over at noon, January 20, regardless of what oaths have taken place.

[*whoops. Lowell beat me to it.]

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,12:42   

yeah, and someone please point me to the part where it says the oath has to be taken over the bible, please...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,14:50   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 20 2009,12:42)
yeah, and someone please point me to the part where it says the oath has to be taken over the bible, please...

It doesn't.  One of the past Presidents put his hand on a law book, NOT a bible.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,14:53   

Quote (J-Dog @ Jan. 20 2009,15:50)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 20 2009,12:42)
yeah, and someone please point me to the part where it says the oath has to be taken over the bible, please...

It doesn't.  One of the past Presidents put his hand on a law book, NOT a bible.

I recall reading somewhere (scienceblogs/dispatches?) that T Roosevelt didn't swear in on any book.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,16:19   

Quote (J-Dog @ Jan. 20 2009,14:50)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 20 2009,12:42)
yeah, and someone please point me to the part where it says the oath has to be taken over the bible, please...

It doesn't.  One of the past Presidents put his hand on a law book, NOT a bible.

John Q Adams, I believe.

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,16:29   

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 20 2009,16:19)
 
Quote (J-Dog @ Jan. 20 2009,14:50)
   
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 20 2009,12:42)
yeah, and someone please point me to the part where it says the oath has to be taken over the bible, please...

It doesn't.  One of the past Presidents put his hand on a law book, NOT a bible.

John Q Adams, I believe.

Yup, that's what this article in Time says.

I would lurve to see that happen again in my lifetime.

--------------
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
Cubist



Posts: 551
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,16:37   

I've read that the specific copy of the Bible that Obama swore on was the same one Abraham Lincoln used when he got sworn in. Interesting, if true...

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2009,16:44   

Quote (Lowell @ Jan. 20 2009,16:29)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 20 2009,16:19)
   
Quote (J-Dog @ Jan. 20 2009,14:50)
   
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 20 2009,12:42)
yeah, and someone please point me to the part where it says the oath has to be taken over the bible, please...

It doesn't.  One of the past Presidents put his hand on a law book, NOT a bible.

John Q Adams, I believe.

Yup, that's what this article in Time says.

I would lurve to see that happen again in my lifetime.

It just drives me nuts that the President is swearing to uphold the Constitution, a secular document, while swearing on a Bible, "So help me, God".  Aarrrgggg!

Howzabout putting your hand on the Constitution and swearing in on THAT, minus the reference to the Sky Daddy?  Yeah, as if.

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2009,13:40   

A final comment to close this thread - permanently, we hope:

Quote
We will restore science to its rightful place...


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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2009,16:43   

Quote (Amadan @ Jan. 21 2009,13:40)
A final comment to close this thread - permanently, we hope:

 
Quote
We will restore science to its rightful place...

Not to extend the thread, but this was the one line where I lost my poker face while watching with my students.  I couldn't suppress a cheer.

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2009,17:08   

Quote (Lowell @ Jan. 20 2009,16:29)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 20 2009,16:19)
   
Quote (J-Dog @ Jan. 20 2009,14:50)
   
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 20 2009,12:42)
yeah, and someone please point me to the part where it says the oath has to be taken over the bible, please...

It doesn't.  One of the past Presidents put his hand on a law book, NOT a bible.

John Q Adams, I believe.

Yup, that's what this article in Time says.

I would lurve to see that happen again in my lifetime.

Ooo Bush sworn in on a Freemason's Bible? I smell a conspiracy!
Aaaaaanyway, not to spoil anyone's mood, but Obama's speech gave me some kind of "been there, done that" feeling. Still happy with it's content ofcourse. Now the réal interesting stuff will happen, all the election stuff was just mild foreplay ;)

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2009,17:58   

I watched the ceremony at a local Greek/Cuban/Italian restaurant (Spaghetti Tuesday, all you can eat for $3.95!) with five of my co-workers:  a live-and-let-live non-denominational Christian (my officemate whom I adore), a new age woo-slinger (thinks all medical doctors are in the pocket of Big Pharma), an ultra-liberal atheist Amazon (even taller than me, which is downright scary!), a lapsed Mormon (my boss), and a kinda'-Christian Freemason (complete with secret decoder ring and cryptic handshake!).

When Warren came on, I booed, which elicited eye rolls and "down girls" from all assembled.  When Obama mentioned "non-believers", I got a high five from my fellow Amazon.  When he mentioned the restoration of science to its proper place we both whooped with joy.  

At the speech's conclusion, ALL of us (including the two who voted for McCain) applauded.  Immediately, a loud boo came from the back of the restaurant, which we had thought we had all to ourselves.  Minutes later, a pissed off redneck stalked out, glaring at us.

Welcome to my little slice of cousin-humping, mouth-breathing, Rapture monkey-infested, rural Florida.  I do believe it's even worse than yours, Steve.   ;)

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2009,18:27   

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 21 2009,18:58)
I watched the ceremony at a local Greek/Cuban/Italian restaurant (Spaghetti Tuesday, all you can eat for $3.95!;) with five of my co-workers:  a live-and-let-live non-denominational Christian (my officemate whom I adore), a new age woo-slinger (thinks all medical doctors are in the pocket of Big Pharma), an ultra-liberal atheist Amazon (even taller than me, which is downright scary!;), a lapsed Mormon (my boss), and a kinda'-Christian Freemason (complete with secret decoder ring and cryptic handshake!;).

When Warren came on, I booed, which elicited eye rolls and "down girls" from all assembled.  When Obama mentioned "non-believers", I got a high five from my fellow Amazon.  When he mentioned the restoration of science to its proper place we both whooped with joy.  

At the speech's conclusion, ALL of us (including the two who voted for McCain) applauded.  Immediately, a loud boo came from the back of the restaurant, which we had thought we had all to ourselves.  Minutes later, a pissed off redneck stalked out, glaring at us.

Welcome to my little slice of cousin-humping, mouth-breathing, Rapture monkey-infested, rural Florida.  I do believe it's even worse than yours, Steve.   ;)

So.

Just how tall are you, exactly?  ;)

eh.. I mean.. great post! Keep up the good work! yeah.  :p

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2009,19:33   

Great.  Just great.  Smilies don't seem to work when I WANT them to but when I close a parenthesis and add a period after it YOU guys see it as a wink smiley.  I was NOT trying to put the stupid emoticons all over my friggin' post.  Arrrg! I really hate my computer.  Sorry for the innapropriate smilies.  I am SO ashamed. :hangs head:

And I'm a bit over 5'10".  Not outrageously tall but taller than most.  My coworker friend is 6'.  I am SO jealous!

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2009,19:35   

Okay, too much Amaretto + cheesy zombie movie = brain fart.  I meant a parenthesis and a COMMA, not a period.

Time to switch to beer and network television, methinks.

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2009,19:42   

There is a checkbox just below the comment entry box that says "Do you wish to enable emoticons for this post?"

Check that when you want emoticons.

I did, so I checked it, but that also enables them for the part of my post when I quoted you.

Totally not your fault. You may return to your drinks.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2009,19:46   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 21 2009,19:42)
There is a checkbox just below the comment entry box that says "Do you wish to enable emoticons for this post?"

Check that when you want emoticons.

I did, so I checked it, but that also enables them for the part of my post when I quoted you.

Totally not your fault. You may return to your drinks.

Aha!  Thanks for the tip.  I never even noticed that box.  Keen powers of observation and all.  <*sigh*>

Back to the booze but I do believe the bad zombie movie needs to go bye-bye.  Drinkin' ain't makin' it no better.  Time to go read a book, methinks.

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2009,20:01   

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 21 2009,17:46)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 21 2009,19:42)
There is a checkbox just below the comment entry box that says "Do you wish to enable emoticons for this post?"

Check that when you want emoticons.

I did, so I checked it, but that also enables them for the part of my post when I quoted you.

Totally not your fault. You may return to your drinks.

Aha!  Thanks for the tip.  I never even noticed that box.  Keen powers of observation and all.  <*sigh*>

Back to the booze but I do believe the bad zombie movie needs to go bye-bye.  Drinkin' ain't makin' it no better.  Time to go read a book, methinks.



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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2009,23:33   

My wife (5'11") and I went to a local inaugural party last night at a pizza joint the next town (5 miles) from us (Orange County is now all just one big town now really). We met up with about 150 local Dem's. I kept hearing people say, "I didn't know there were this many of us in south county OC."

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
snorkild



Posts: 32
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 22 2009,04:06   

Quote (Lowell @ Jan. 20 2009,16:29)
Ooo Bush sworn in on a Freemason's Bible?

Really? I thought he was sworn in on "The Very Hungry Caterpillar".

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wimp

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 22 2009,06:14   

Ok, now, who is the smartass who replaced Obama's picture with a gorilla?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 22 2009,06:20   

Ok, it's been fixed. If anyone wants the screenshot:

http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/fairyphil/GorillaObama.jpg

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2009,14:43   

Must.... suppress.... Nelson Muntz... laugh.... strength fading...so... difficult...

 
Quote
January 23, 2009, 2:32 pm
Obama to GOP: ‘I Won’
Jonathan Weisman reports on the White House.

The top congressional leaders from both parties gathered at the White House for a working discussion over the shape and size of President Barack Obama’s economic stimulus plan. The meeting was designed to promote bipartisanship.

But Obama showed that in an ideological debate, he’s not averse to using a jab.

Challenged by one Republican senator over the contents of the package, the new president, according to participants, replied: “I won.”

The statement was prompted by Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl of Arizona , who challenged the president and the Democratic leaders over the balance between the package’s spending and tax cuts, bringing up the traditional Republican notion that a tax credit for people who do not earn enough to pay income taxes is not a tax cut but a government check.

Obama noted that such workers pay Social Security and Medicare taxes, property taxes and sales taxes. The issue was widely debated during the presidential campaign, when Sen. John McCain, the Republican nominee, challenged Obama’s tax plan as “welfare.”

With those two words — “I won” — the Democratic president let the Republicans know that debate has been put to rest Nov. 4 .

Democratic and Republican aides confirmed the exchange. A White House spokesman said he wasn’t immediately aware of the exchange. The aides who heard the remarks stressed that it wasn’t as boldly partisan as it might sound.

Still, other Democrats echoed the sentiment. As he left the White House, House Majority Whip James Clyburn of South Carolina was asked about Republican complaints that Democrats aren’t listening to what their GOP colleagues have to say. “We’re responding to the American people,” he said. “The American people didn’t listen to them too well during the election.”



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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2009,03:58   

Obama's doing the right thing by moving the weekly radio address to YouTube, but a weekly address is still the wrong thing to do. Simply because we'll get tired of it. I'm not going to tune in to a weekly presidential statement for the next 4 years. I don't want to hear 208 mini-speeches over the next 4 years. Make it once a month. Familiarity breeds contempt.

   
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 26 2009,01:10   

This probably belongs on the Bathroom Wall, but that's too polluted with the Daniel Smith goings on, so will use this thread to spread the Good News:

(Scroll to the bottom)
This is William Kristol’s last column.

Damn! This just keeps getting better and better!

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 26 2009,01:13   

I was psyched to see that a few hours ago. The rumors were right, thank god.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 26 2009,01:16   

I mean, Maureen Dowd is pretty bad, and Thomas Friedman...well, Matt Taibbi said all that needs to be said about him. But Kristol was just awful. Whoever they replace him with will be an improvement.

Rich, Krugman, Kristof, and Herbert are good.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 26 2009,09:19   

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 25 2009,23:16)
I mean, Maureen Dowd is pretty bad, and Thomas Friedman...well, Matt Taibbi said all that needs to be said about him. But Kristol was just awful. Whoever they replace him with will be an improvement.

Rich, Krugman, Kristof, and Herbert are good.

Wasn't Kristol the one who talked McCain into choosing Palin?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 26 2009,10:53   

Quote (bfish @ Jan. 25 2009,23:10)
This probably belongs on the Bathroom Wall, but that's too polluted with the Daniel Smith goings on, so will use this thread to spread the Good News:

(Scroll to the bottom)
This is William Kristol’s last column.

Damn! This just keeps getting better and better!

YEAAAAAAAAAA

Why did he quit? Was he fired? Is he dying?

Edited by Dr.GH on Jan. 26 2009,08:54

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
noncarborundum



Posts: 320
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 26 2009,11:18   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Jan. 26 2009,10:53)
 
Quote (bfish @ Jan. 25 2009,23:10)
This probably belongs on the Bathroom Wall, but that's too polluted with the Daniel Smith goings on, so will use this thread to spread the Good News:

(Scroll to the bottom)
This is William Kristol’s last column.

Damn! This just keeps getting better and better!

YEAAAAAAAAAA

Why did he quit? Was he fired? Is he dying?

Kristol's contract is up.  They signed him up for one year in January 2008.  Maybe cooler heads at the NYT have have prevailed this time around.

--------------
"The . . . um . . . okay, I was genetically selected for blue eyes.  I know there are brown eyes, because I've observed them, but I can't do it.  Okay?  So . . . um . . . coz that's real genetic selection, not the nonsense Giberson and the others are talking about." - DO'L

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 26 2009,11:28   

Quote (noncarborundum @ Jan. 26 2009,11:18)
Quote (Dr.GH @ Jan. 26 2009,10:53)
   
Quote (bfish @ Jan. 25 2009,23:10)
This probably belongs on the Bathroom Wall, but that's too polluted with the Daniel Smith goings on, so will use this thread to spread the Good News:

(Scroll to the bottom)
This is William Kristol’s last column.

Damn! This just keeps getting better and better!

YEAAAAAAAAAA

Why did he quit? Was he fired? Is he dying?

Kristol's contract is up.  They signed him up for one year in January 2008.  Maybe   cooler wiser heads at the NYT have have prevailed this time around.

I fixed it for you! :)

The guy was like a Dembski for editorialaists...wrong about everything he was supremely confident about.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 26 2009,14:23   

Quote
Kristol's contract is up.  They signed him up for one year in January 2008.  Maybe cooler heads at the NYT have have prevailed this time around.

That and the Times is broke.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,14:48   

Obama has an even more barbed sense of humor than we thought. This from his recent negotiations with the House GOP:

 
Quote
Republicans continue to insist that tax cuts be added to the package, and some spending cut from it. They've won at least one victory so far, but aren't likely to wring many more concessions from the administration. During his meeting with the House Republicans, Obama was reportedly asked about coming to compromise on taxes by including an income tax cut. He responded by insisting that there was a need to focus at least in part on payroll taxes, to help families that don't pay income tax (most Americans pay more in payroll tax than they do in income tax), saying, "feel free to whack me over the head because I probably will not compromise on that part." He added, according to NBC's First Read, that he understands there's a time for politics and for the GOP to "beat him up," and said, "I understand that and I will watch you on Fox News and feel bad about myself."


Yow. I wonder if any of the Goopers realized they were being made fun of?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,14:56   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Jan. 27 2009,14:48)
Yow. I wonder if any of the Goopers realized they were being made fun of?

Short answer?  "NO!".  

Goopers and UDers have an equivalent sense of humor = 0.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2009,13:30   

AIDS Coordinator Is Dismissed

Quote
The abrupt departure of the State Department’s global AIDS coordinator has led to debate over who should run what may be President Bush’s greatest legacy: his commitment of billions of dollars to fighting AIDS overseas.
The position — U.S. Global AIDS Coordinator and director of the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, which is known as Pepfar — is a State Department post with ambassador’s rank that had been held by Dr. Mark R. Dybul, a Bush administration appointee.

On Jan. 9, Dr. Dybul circulated a memo saying he had been asked by President Obama’s transition team to stay on the job temporarily. But on Jan. 22, one day after Hillary Clinton was confirmed as secretary of state, her staff announced that Dr. Dybul had resigned.

No reason was given, but he was reported to have packed up his office and said an emotional goodbye to his staff that afternoon. Mr. Dybul did not return phone messages, but he has told friends that he does not even know on whose orders he was dismissed.

“He deserved better,” said a friend who asked not to be identified for fear of jeopardizing his government job. “He didn’t want to stay, but he was asked.”

The ambassador disburses Pepfar’s funds; Congress authorized $15 billion over five years in 2003, and the fund has since paid for AIDS drugs for about two million people, mostly in Africa. Last year, after a bitter fight between liberal and conservative lawmakers over what the money could be spent on, the fund was renewed as part of a law authorizing $48 billion over five years for combating AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria.

The question of who should run the program seems to be a legacy of that fight. Several names have been discussed as possible candidates, but AIDS activists say they know of no one who has been seriously vetted for the job by the Obama transition team since November.

A day after Dr. Dybul’s resignation, word began to circulate among AIDS activists that the job had been offered to Dr. Eric Goosby, the director of AIDS policy in Bill Clinton’s administration, who now runs a San Francisco foundation devoted to fighting AIDS.

According to a member of an anti-AIDS group speaking on the condition of anonymity, Senator John Kerry approached Mrs. Clinton, seeking the job for Dr. Jim Yong Kim, a Harvard medical school professor and former World Health Organization AIDS chief, and was told that she had offered it to Dr. Goosby.

Through a spokesman, Dr. Goosby declined to confirm or deny that he had been offered the job, and Dr. Kim did not return phone calls seeking comment. Senator Kerry’s spokesman said he would not discuss the senator’s personal conversations with Mrs. Clinton.

Both men had been discussed as possible candidates, along with Dr. Nils Daulaire, former president of the Global Health Council; Dr. Wafaa El-Sadr, an epidemiologist at the Columbia School of Public Health; and Warren W. Buckingham III, Pepfar’s director in Kenya, who is openly gay and taking AIDS drugs himself.

Dr. Daulaire declined to be interviewed, Dr. El-Sadr said she had not heard that her name was among those being discussed, and Mr. Buckingham said he knew his name had been suggested by others but had not lobbied for the job and had not been contacted by either the Obama or Clinton teams.

The abruptness of Dr. Dybul’s departure and the secrecy of the process to replace him has upset some AIDS policy specialists.

On Monday, a coalition of 68 anti-AIDS groups sent a letter to Mrs. Clinton asking her not to fill Mr. Dybul’s post immediately but to convene a committee to identify top candidates and get many viewpoints, including theirs.

One of its authors, Brian Hennessey of the Vineeta Foundation, expressed his irritation at how the request was ignored.

“Goosby is not bad,” he said. “There are plenty of people who want Goosby — but they’ll be damned if the job is filled this way. This isn’t the truth-in-advertising of the Obama campaign.”


Dr. Dybul’s departure was both celebrated and condemned.

Jodi Jacobson, a former head of the Center for Health and Gender Equity, which wants financing for all aspects of women’s reproductive health, including abortion, wrote a blog post titled “Dybul Out: Thank You Hillary!!!” It argued that he had worked too closely with the far right, and she accused him of lobbying to please the Roman Catholic Church by letting its relief groups opt out of distributing condoms.

Michael Gerson, a former Bush speechwriter and Washington Post columnist, shot back that “blogging extremists” like Ms. Jacobson had lied about Dr. Dybul’s record and that his firing had left an important program without a leader.

At the heart of the debate was the difficult bipartisan compromise behind Mr. Bush’s AIDS plan. It is the darling of two groups that normally oppose each other: foreign policy liberals who want to help Africa and evangelical Christians who support mission hospitals there.

Dr. Dybul was straddling some personal fences too: he was one of the Bush administration’s few openly gay officials, a doctor who had treated AIDS patients in San Francisco and Africa, and he had donated to Democratic causes. He took office when his boss, Randall Tobias, a former pharmaceutical executive, was ousted in the D.C. Madam scandal after acknowledging he had received escort-service massages.

Mr. Tobias and Dr. Dybul surprised many with two early decisions that activists had expected fights over: Pepfar has paid for millions of condoms, and it buys cheap generic drugs from India, despite the pharmaceutical lobby’s opposition.

But conservatives in Congress imposed other restrictions: one-third of the money spent on prevention had to be used for teaching abstinence until marriage. Groups getting funds, including those helping prostitutes, had to sign a pledge condemning prostitution. And no money could be spent on clean needles for drug addicts.

These issues were divisive not just for liberals and conservatives, but also between liberals. For example, some feminists think women needing money have a right to engage in prostitution, while others oppose it, saying it contributes to human trafficking and child rape.

In separate studies, the Government Accountability Office and the Institute of Medicine both found that the abstinence earmark unnecessarily tied the hands of fund recipients, especially in countries where AIDS was concentrated among drug users and prostitutes.

Dr. Dybul defended the teaching of abstinence, especially to young children, because it can be effective among deeply religious rural Africans.

And he argued that countries could get funds for prohibited uses, like clean needles, from other donors like the Global Fund for AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria or European countries.

Although the restrictions have been criticized, no one has presented scientific evidence that they cost any lives.

And although there was grumbling in 2003 when the Bush administration created its own AIDS program rather than simply contributing to the Global Fund, Rajat Gupta, chairman of the Global Fund’s board, said Thursday in Davos that Pepfar was “one of the truly great contributions of the last administration.”



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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
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