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  Topic: Kent Hovind on tape, Direct from jail< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
GCT



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2007,16:13   

Here are Kent's taped phone conversations from jail.

http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2007....om.html

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2007,16:16   

uh, before one even lends an ear, is this one of those "guranteed to cause brain cell death" kinda things?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
GCT



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2007,18:09   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 15 2007,17:16)
uh, before one even lends an ear, is this one of those "guranteed to cause brain cell death" kinda things?

Quite possibly yes.

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2007,18:27   

see?

now that's the kinda honesty creobots just can't deliver.

;)

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2007,19:55   

What I want is the sentencing hearing transcript!

The phone calls convinced me that Hovind is actually insane.  He wasn't faking, it was not just a con-job, he is utterly insane.  :O

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2007,20:28   

I would like to know what DaveScot's take is on this...
Martyer For The Cause?
Another Dembski Disciple?
Tax Cheatin' Poltroon?
Just another Bozo in the Big Tent?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2007,20:29   

So, is it a "woe is me" speech, or a "I'm locked up with all these evilutionists" speech, or a "send me your money" speech, or a "the Zionist Occupation Government got me!" speech, or a "how I'm helping these poor men to Jaysus" speech, or a "something really hurts down there" speech, or what?

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BWE



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2007,07:47   

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA . I'm sorry. That just came out. I listened to them. If you enjoy laughing at people like him, you will like these recordings.

By the way, OT, did someone make a post using my account a couple of weeks ago? Does anyone know where that might be? One of my many night shifts that turned into late morning maybe?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

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Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2007,11:53   

Quote
So, is it a "woe is me" speech, or a "I'm locked up with all these evilutionists" speech, or a "send me your money" speech, or a "the Zionist Occupation Government got me!" speech, or a "how I'm helping these poor men to Jaysus" speech, or a "something really hurts down there" speech, or what?

All of those arguments at once, PLUS THE KICKER:

“If they let me out of prison, I shall forgive them [the IRS].” *Strikes pose* “But if they don’t let me out of here [and I must say I detected a bit of, “Lemme outa here! Lemme the #### outa here!”], I shall go after them. I’ll sue them. Again. One for every little mistake they’ve made, and they’ve made a lot of mistakes!” *Shakes fist* [Yeah, the IRS really loused it up Hovie, and that’s why you’re in the clink. Right.] “But if I don’t get outa here [ “Lemme outa here! Waahh!] I’m going after them, blah” yakkity-yak.

What a deluded nincompoop. :D

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

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deadman_932



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2007,16:08   

8 years and 6 months or so for Hovind to ponder this turn of events -- 540 days maximum "good time" with no earlier parole available at the Fed level, unless he gets a Bush pardon or some such thing. I expect ol' Kent to display a wide range of emotions before it's all over. What I really hope for is acknowledgement of wrongdoing and just a touch of genuine contrition.
But, like Doc G.H. posted, I also don't think Hovind's sane: he's convinced himself of his own delusions. Reminds me of AFDave, really.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2007,16:22   

indeed, the patterns are very similar, but not just for these two.

again, this keeps bringing me back to this whole creobotism thing being more related to psychology than religion.

religion is just "the enabler", for the underlying psychological malady.

I keep scanning for sites that are looking into researching this aspect of it, but it appears there is little indication anyone witn a science blog is considering the issue on that level consistently (oh, there is brief recognition from time to time, but no consistent attempts to examine the issue from that perspective).

Unfortunate, as an approach that really looks at the underlying causation will be the only real productive way of approaching a solution in the long term, IMO.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2007,16:56   

I have been doing a lot of thinking about that, actually. (I got hammered at Pharyngula of all places for suggesting that creationism, not religious beliefs, was an indication of a neurotic disorder—“I wouldn’t say they’re crazy!”—well, that’s not what I said.) ;)

I remember a study done with subjects who held racist ideas: they were asked to look at a series of slides in which there were drawings of cats that gradually “morphed” into drawings of dogs. Those who held firm racist attitudes would insist that the drawing that was clearly of a dog was a “cat.” I thought of this again when a friend of mine, a prominent atheist in the Twin Cities who goes and speaks at Bible colleges about evolution, science, religion, etc., talked last night of showing the students examples of transitional fossils, and they insist that they still “don’t see it.”

Yes, there’s definitely a huge psychological component to this. After my talk on learning behaviors I got so many new ideas from the class discussion that I’d love to test the idea further, specifically regarding students learning about evolution. (I just don't know when I could find time to do it, however.)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2007,17:10   

yeah, you watch guys like Airhead Dave long enough, and you begin to see the self-reinforcing delusions common to people suffering from schizophrenia.

I don't think it's just a coincidence.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
GCT



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2007,17:14   

Quote (BWE @ Feb. 16 2007,08:47)
By the way, OT, did someone make a post using my account a couple of weeks ago? Does anyone know where that might be? One of my many night shifts that turned into late morning maybe?

I think it was on Avo's thread.

  
BWE



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2007,17:52   

Found it. Er. I feel pretty drn sheepish.



The lady who wrote that has also written a few other things. Er, published in other places. Not as me. Although, I can dream. Guess I need to remember to shut down my computer when I'm not there.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2007,23:17   

About those psychological factors: this (via EBSCO) is pretty darn weird.  
Quote
Interhemispheric interaction and beliefs on our origin: Degree of handedness predicts beliefs in creationism versus evolution.  Niebauer, Christopher Lee; Christman, Stephen D.; Reid, Scott A.; Laterality: Asymmetries of Body, Brain and Cognition, Vol 9(4), Oct 2004. pp. 433-447.

It's available as a PDF. I don't know what I think of a supposed correlation between strong "handedness" and creationism, although it would perhaps explain all those engineers, and...

...well, it would also explain how Hovie's spending most of his time in prison.  :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2007,00:29   

Did you happen to catch that twin study looking at heritability of "extreme religious behavior" (read: fundamentalism) that was published a couple years back?

I can dig up the reference for you if you are interested.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2007,11:34   

Yeah, if you can get me the citation, I would definitely be interested.  :)

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2007,15:27   

this includes the reference, and the original discussion of the paper on PT:

http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/03/genes_contribut.html

here's the link to the abstract in pubmed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez....bstract


If you want to get an intro to the field of evo psych, I found this site useful:

http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/index.html

You will find just as much friction to it now, as Lewontin generated in the early days of sociobiology.

true enough, just like with early sociobiology, evo psych also makes some mistaken assumptions IMO (as well as a seeming lack of knowledge of the history of ethology at times), but the application of evolutionary theory to human behavior has been (and will continue to be) a productive approach.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2007,10:52   

Thanks a bunch, Ichthyic. :) I was able to pull the PDF of the original article from Journal of Personality via your link (and as it turns out I have heard of this study).

I'll check out the evo psych link too. I'm iffy about that stuff, although as long as their methodology is sound I’m open to it.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2007,11:40   

Quote (Kristine @ Feb. 16 2007,16:56)
I have been doing a lot of thinking about that, actually. (I got hammered at Pharyngula of all places for suggesting that creationism, not religious beliefs, was an indication of a neurotic disorder—“I wouldn’t say they’re crazy!”—well, that’s not what I said.) ;)

My experiences of religion where all fun, boring or comforting until I started on this little adventure.

It is only since reading at PT etc that I found religion/religious people that are disturbing.

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2007,21:38   

http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr04/beliefs.html

yeah, it's a few years old.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,07:00   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 20 2007,11:40)
It is only since reading at PT etc that I found religion/religious people that are disturbing.

Oddly, it was only since reading at PT that I found ANTI-religious people thare disturbing.    ;)

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Alan Fox



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,08:45   

Quote
I don't think it's just a coincidence.
Quote
It is only since reading at PT etc that I found religion/religious people that are disturbing.
 
Quote
Oddly, it was only since reading at PT that I found ANTI-religious people thare disturbing.


It is the people, not the ideas, that need watching. When "Communism fell" many apparatchiks moved seamlessly into the emerging "democratic" parties. Now ID is fatally damaged, opportunists will attempt to exploit another vehicle for their ambitions. Hopefully, the global warming issue will not turn out to be such a vehicle.

Plus ça change...

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,14:20   

Quote (Alan Fox @ Feb. 24 2007,08:45)
Quote
I don't think it's just a coincidence.
 
Quote
It is only since reading at PT etc that I found religion/religious people that are disturbing.
 
Quote
Oddly, it was only since reading at PT that I found ANTI-religious people thare disturbing.


It is the people, not the ideas, that need watching. When "Communism fell" many apparatchiks moved seamlessly into the emerging "democratic" parties. Now ID is fatally damaged, opportunists will attempt to exploit another vehicle for their ambitions. Hopefully, the global warming issue will not turn out to be such a vehicle.

Plus ça change...

Can you expand on that Alan?

TBH, I haven't got a clue as to what you mean.

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,14:37   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Feb. 24 2007,07:00)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 20 2007,11:40)
It is only since reading at PT etc that I found religion/religious people that are disturbing.

Oddly, it was only since reading at PT that I found ANTI-religious people thare disturbing.    ;)

Oh yes,
I remember that.
It can be quite scarey when people wish to impose thier opinions onto others.
Key words are opinion and impose.
It bothers me not when people wish to persuade with evidence. That is fine.

Coincidently, I had a Jehova's witness at my door today. He was sorta alone (as in he did not have a coleague), he did have his young (bored looking) son with him.

It was quite amazing with the arguments he used. Micro/Macro evolution, Why do we still have monkeys, The list of scientists etc etc where all mentioned. This site gave me enough counter-arguments to send him packing without being rude. He didn't even leave me the pamphlets he was going to.

This place and PT had me well prepared in my arguments. Seen them before and had answers/refutations.

With hindsight I could have handled it better. Invited him in and show him where he had been lied to.

OTOH I did not want to upset him too much. I believe that he thought he was doing good work.

  
Bing



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,16:45   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,14:37)
Coincidently, I had a Jehova's witness at my door today. He was sorta alone (as in he did not have a coleague), he did have his young (bored looking) son with him.

It was quite amazing with the arguments he used. Micro/Macro evolution, Why do we still have monkeys, The list of scientists etc etc where all mentioned. This site gave me enough counter-arguments to send him packing without being rude. He didn't even leave me the pamphlets he was going to.

This place and PT had me well prepared in my arguments. Seen them before and had answers/refutations.

With hindsight I could have handled it better. Invited him in and show him where he had been lied to.

OTOH I did not want to upset him too much. I believe that he thought he was doing good work.

That's where you and I differ.  I had one coming to my door every Saturday for weeks on end.  He seemed like a nice old geezer but polite requests to leave me alone and not knock on my door were ignored.

So finally fed up, I invited him in.  When I asked him to light the candles in the points of the pentagram that I had painted on the basement floor while I went and got the chicken he took off like a scalded cat.

And the next week I saw him cross the street as he walked up the sidewalk.  Guess I musta scared him or something?

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,17:12   

Quote
I believe that he thought he was doing good work.


and THAT'S the real problem.

instead of taking down his arguments, I would suggest a more productive approach would be to show the DAMAGE his "good work" has and is causing to education in this country.

then he can ask himself where his arguments went wrong.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Stephen Elliott



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,19:48   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,17:12)
Quote
I believe that he thought he was doing good work.


and THAT'S the real problem.

instead of taking down his arguments, I would suggest a more productive approach would be to show the DAMAGE his "good work" has and is causing to education in this country.

then he can ask himself where his arguments went wrong.

Fair point Ichy. How would you suggest going about that? I wouldn't know where to start.

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,19:55   

Quote (Bing @ Feb. 24 2007,16:45)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,14:37)
Coincidently, I had a Jehova's witness at my door today. He was sorta alone (as in he did not have a coleague), he did have his young (bored looking) son with him.

It was quite amazing with the arguments he used. Micro/Macro evolution, Why do we still have monkeys, The list of scientists etc etc where all mentioned. This site gave me enough counter-arguments to send him packing without being rude. He didn't even leave me the pamphlets he was going to.

This place and PT had me well prepared in my arguments. Seen them before and had answers/refutations.

With hindsight I could have handled it better. Invited him in and show him where he had been lied to.

OTOH I did not want to upset him too much. I believe that he thought he was doing good work.

That's where you and I differ.  I had one coming to my door every Saturday for weeks on end.  He seemed like a nice old geezer but polite requests to leave me alone and not knock on my door were ignored.

So finally fed up, I invited him in.  When I asked him to light the candles in the points of the pentagram that I had painted on the basement floor while I went and got the chicken he took off like a scalded cat.

And the next week I saw him cross the street as he walked up the sidewalk.  Guess I musta scared him or something?

That is not an action that I would use. Main reason being, it would involve me having to lie. That is not an option that I am willing to do.

  
k.e



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,20:10   

Quote (Bing @ Feb. 25 2007,00:45)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,14:37)
Coincidently, I had a Jehova's witness at my door today. He was sorta alone (as in he did not have a coleague), he did have his young (bored looking) son with him.

It was quite amazing with the arguments he used. Micro/Macro evolution, Why do we still have monkeys, The list of scientists etc etc where all mentioned. This site gave me enough counter-arguments to send him packing without being rude. He didn't even leave me the pamphlets he was going to.

This place and PT had me well prepared in my arguments. Seen them before and had answers/refutations.

With hindsight I could have handled it better. Invited him in and show him where he had been lied to.

OTOH I did not want to upset him too much. I believe that he thought he was doing good work.

That's where you and I differ.  I had one coming to my door every Saturday for weeks on end.  He seemed like a nice old geezer but polite requests to leave me alone and not knock on my door were ignored.

So finally fed up, I invited him in.  When I asked him to light the candles in the points of the pentagram that I had painted on the basement floor while I went and got the chicken he took off like a scalded cat.

And the next week I saw him cross the street as he walked up the sidewalk.  Guess I musta scared him or something?

Brilliant!

Not that I would do anything like that (stifled guffaw).

What was going on in that guy's head?

The thought of the equally real 'other' invading his earthly carcass? Why not? At least he was aware that it had already happened once.

When he walks down a street does he see demons and devils which are by comparison just as real as his gods?

The fear of the fear that made him jump in through the door of a church of loonies who ......surprise surprise confirmed his deepest fears.

The thought that his character was too weak to counteract someone strong and free enough to perform satanic acts in his own basement? And his fear that he could be sucked in just as easily to his cult of current choice.

If you wait long enough they all give themselves away.

Empty words, nice uniforms and one whole day a week devoted to stroking inner fears by the self deluded. Religion.... can't shoot it, can't eat it

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,21:09   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,19:48)
 
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,17:12)
 
Quote
I believe that he thought he was doing good work.


and THAT'S the real problem.

instead of taking down his arguments, I would suggest a more productive approach would be to show the DAMAGE his "good work" has and is causing to education in this country.

then he can ask himself where his arguments went wrong.

Fair point Ichy. How would you suggest going about that? I wouldn't know where to start.

yes, more difficult, but I would use studies like that in the nat. geo. issue on evolution that came out a couple of years ago (nov 2004 I think) where the there was data on the influence of extreme religious indoctrination on education.

or, you could go and show him data on the trends in homeschooled kids over the last few decades, and see how well in the sciences these religiously homeschooled kids have placed on standard tests.

or you could talk in more general terms of the impacts of science and technology on the economy of the US - talk about the role of science in medicine; the role of evolution, for example, in cancer research and epidemiology.

by teaching kids falsities about science in general, they are causing direct damage to the future quality of life of the very people they want to "help".

I'm just scratching the surface here; entire books have been written on the subject, which you might want to read.

one that pops off the top of my head is the Ehrlich's "The Betrayal of Science and Reason"

http://www.amazon.com/Betraya....9634847

IOW, there are many different directions you can take to show that breeding ignorance causes direct damage to the very quality of life we have come to expect as "1st worlders".

and it saves you having to counter every little bit of ignorant claptrap they try to spew at you, unless, like myself, you actually enjoy wasting their time by doing just that.

for fun, you might try seeing if you can find the movie:

Idiocracy

It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,21:40   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,14:37)
Coincidently, I had a Jehova's witness at my door today.

My favorite tactic for dealing with Witnesses (and any other fundy nutters who came to my door):

For years, I kept a large collection of reptiles and exotic animals in my house (I used to do educational talks and shows for school classes, scout troops, etc).  One of my pets was an adult black racer snake, wildcaught -- about four feet long, glossy black, very fast, very alert, and hated humans with an absolute passion.  Every time his cage was approached, he'd instantly rear up in the classic S-shaped snake-attack position.  Everyone who saw him assumed he was some sort of mamba or something.

Also had a tank full of African emperor scorpions.  The largest scorp species in the world -- eight inches tip to tip, huge pincers, with a highly visible stinger at least a quarter-inch long at the end of their graceful curving tail.  Glossy black.  The most evil-looking thing you can imagine.

Both critters were, of course, utterly harmless to humans.  

So, whenever the god-botherers would show up, I'd invite them in and sit them down, on a love seat that just happened to be right between these two cages.  After they had a good long look, I'd ask to borrow their Bible, and open it to Luke 10:19:

"Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,  and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

I then asked them to go ahead and demonstrate their faith in the Bible by opening either cage and handing me its occupant.  Their choice which one.


For some odd reason, no one ever took me up on my offer, and they all decided that they had better places to be.

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Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,21:41   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.


You know what? I consider that to be the most likely scenario.

A tad depressing but it does seem to be happening (at least as far as the UK is concerned).

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,21:54   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Feb. 24 2007,21:40)
...

"Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,  and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

I then asked them to go ahead and demonstrate their faith in the Bible by opening either cage and handing me its occupant.  Their choice which one.


For some odd reason, no one ever took me up on my offer, and they all decided that they had better places to be.

ROFL. Now that is pretty funny. Not an option for me though (I have no pets).

TBH, I didn't really mind the visit. I found it quite interesting and was fair pleased that my exposure to here and PT bore some fruit. It was a tad surprising that he was using arguments that had been discussed here many times.

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,22:52   

Quote
One of my pets was an adult black racer snake


ouch.

especially the wild caught ones.

unless they were different in your neck o the woods, those things are some of the nastiest snakes I've ever tried to catch.

at least they're not poisonous.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2007,22:55   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,21:41)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.


You know what? I consider that to be the most likely scenario.

A tad depressing but it does seem to be happening (at least as far as the UK is concerned).

oh, i really recommend you check out that movie if you haven't seen it yet.

rent the DVD or grab a torrent of it.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2007,12:40   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,22:55)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,21:41)
 
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.


You know what? I consider that to be the most likely scenario.

A tad depressing but it does seem to be happening (at least as far as the UK is concerned).

oh, i really recommend you check out that movie if you haven't seen it yet.

rent the DVD or grab a torrent of it.

Went to buy it today (Idiocracy). Tried 2 shops, niether had it. Will have to order it online.

  
Alan Fox



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2007,14:40   

Stephen asks:
Quote
Can you expand on that Alan?

TBH, I haven't got a clue as to what you mean.


I was just saying that whilst you and I might try to convince others with logic, reason and evidence, some with political ambitions or aspiring cult leaders adopt and discard ideas as expediency dictates. Their motive is not to expand the boundaries of human knowledge but to gain power and control for its own sake.

I doubt that, for example, Pol Pot, could have been dissuaded from his takeover of Cambodia by a lively debate of the issues. ID was important for what it was thought might be delivered politically, those who were using it have not gone away, and will still need watching.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2007,15:34   

Quote
Went to buy it today (Idiocracy). Tried 2 shops, niether had it. Will have to order it online.


hmm, you might also look for a torrent of it; it wasn't a widely popular movie (it was made by the South Park guys, IIRC), so you might try just looking for it on thepiratebay.org

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
GCT



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2007,15:40   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 25 2007,16:34)
Quote
Went to buy it today (Idiocracy). Tried 2 shops, niether had it. Will have to order it online.


hmm, you might also look for a torrent of it; it wasn't a widely popular movie (it was made by the South Park guys, IIRC), so you might try just looking for it on thepiratebay.org

Mike Judge made it.  He's the guy behind Beavis and Butthead and King of the Hill.  He also did Office Space, an all time classic.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2007,16:03   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,22:52)
Quote
One of my pets was an adult black racer snake


ouch.

especially the wild caught ones.

unless they were different in your neck o the woods, those things are some of the nastiest snakes I've ever tried to catch.

at least they're not poisonous.

I used them in talks because they were the snake most of the kids were likely to have seen.  I would always say to them, "The good news is that you probably won't catch them anyway.  The bad news is that you just MIGHT."     ;>


I had him for years, fed him, cleaned him, cared for him like a child -- and he still bit me every chance he had.

--------------
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www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2007,17:32   

Quote (GCT @ Feb. 25 2007,15:40)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 25 2007,16:34)
Quote
Went to buy it today (Idiocracy). Tried 2 shops, niether had it. Will have to order it online.


hmm, you might also look for a torrent of it; it wasn't a widely popular movie (it was made by the South Park guys, IIRC), so you might try just looking for it on thepiratebay.org

Mike Judge made it.  He's the guy behind Beavis and Butthead and King of the Hill.  He also did Office Space, an all time classic.

ahh, thanks.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
GCT



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2007,18:35   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 25 2007,18:32)
Quote (GCT @ Feb. 25 2007,15:40)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 25 2007,16:34)
 
Quote
Went to buy it today (Idiocracy). Tried 2 shops, niether had it. Will have to order it online.


hmm, you might also look for a torrent of it; it wasn't a widely popular movie (it was made by the South Park guys, IIRC), so you might try just looking for it on thepiratebay.org

Mike Judge made it.  He's the guy behind Beavis and Butthead and King of the Hill.  He also did Office Space, an all time classic.

ahh, thanks.

No worries bro.

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2007,18:48   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,23:55)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,21:41)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.


You know what? I consider that to be the most likely scenario.

A tad depressing but it does seem to be happening (at least as far as the UK is concerned).

oh, i really recommend you check out that movie if you haven't seen it yet.

rent the DVD or grab a torrent of it.

Florida is a terrible and crazy place to be, though there are some upsides. Every few months a screaming girlfriend demands that you remove a snake from her bedroom. Whereupon you go in, and find a harmless green snake, and grab him by the tail, and sling him into the woods in the back yard, and consequently appear to be Conan the Barbarian. And lets just say there are worse things to be, boyfriend-wise.

   
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2007,19:22   

Quote
And lets just say there are worse things to be, boyfriend-wise.


gator wrangler?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

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Mike PSS



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2007,21:11   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 25 2007,20:22)
Quote
And lets just say there are worse things to be, boyfriend-wise.


gator wrangler?

In Florida...

Facility Maintenance at a retirement trailer park.

That scene could generate a TV series all on its own.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2007,06:59   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,19:55)
That is not an action that I would use. Main reason being, it would involve me having to lie. That is not an option that I am willing to do.

Stephen, it's only a lie if you don't really have the pentagram, candles, and chicken.

Just a thought.

:D

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2007,07:04   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Feb. 25 2007,16:03)
I had him for years, fed him, cleaned him, cared for him like a child -- and he still bit me every chance he had.

Sounds like my kids.

Just sayin'.

:D

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2007,12:24   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 26 2007,06:59)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,19:55)
That is not an action that I would use. Main reason being, it would involve me having to lie. That is not an option that I am willing to do.

Stephen, it's only a lie if you don't really have the pentagram, candles, and chicken.

Just a thought.

:D

LOL!
Made me laugh.
Physically, I don't even have a basement (there is a river within a few feet of my backdoor{makes a basement somewhat problematic}).
But, (and I suspect you know) it wasn't the physical reality that I would consider dishonest. It was the mental atitude (and I don't posses a live chicken).
I am just not prepared for a hospitable Satanic visit (very remiss of me, I guess). Still, got some ebola and a flaming torch.

  
J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2007,21:12   

Man, you guys are easy... I always tell them I had a vision from God, and He told me that they are going to ####.  There is nothing they can say to counter that, and I have had excellent results.  Which means of course, that I get left alone.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2007,00:49   

BTW, if someone is looking for Idiocracy and they really can't locate it, let me know (PM).

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2007,04:32   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Mar. 01 2007,00:49)
BTW, if someone is looking for Idiocracy and they really can't locate it, let me know (PM).

According to Amazon it isn't released just yet.
Sure does explain why I had a problem locating one in the shops.   :-)

  
don_quixote



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2007,09:16   

Found a torrent for Idiocracy at thepiratebay. It really does seem to divide opinion!

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2007,17:22   

Quote (don_quixote @ Mar. 01 2007,09:16)
Found a torrent for Idiocracy at thepiratebay. It really does seem to divide opinion!

for future reference, there is a reason I mentioned using my PM.

I don't think Wes has a problem with posting links to places like PirateBay, but others might, if you get my drift.

just a suggestion.

btw, it came out in 2005, IIRC, and you can certainly rent it:

http://www.netflix.com/MovieDi....0028899

if you don't want to buy it:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000K7VHOG/km-20/ref=nosim

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
don_quixote



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2007,18:40   

Point taken, Ichthyic. That was indeed inconsiderate of me.

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2007,18:56   

no worries

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2007,06:01   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
for fun, you might try seeing if you can find the movie:

Idiocracy

It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.

Just pre-ordered it at Amazon. It isn't due for release over here until about the 19th of this month. Still, I ordered "office space" as well and should get that about Wed.

  
GCT



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2007,07:13   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 04 2007,07:01)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
for fun, you might try seeing if you can find the movie:

Idiocracy

It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.

Just pre-ordered it at Amazon. It isn't due for release over here until about the 19th of this month. Still, I ordered "office space" as well and should get that about Wed.

Office Space is very funny IMO.  Let us know how you like it.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,13:11   

Quote (GCT @ Mar. 04 2007,07:13)
Office Space is very funny IMO.  Let us know how you like it.

Got it today. Just finished watching it. I thought it was Ok and quite funny but nothing special. Having said that, I have only just watched it and most reports say it is better on 2nd (or 3rd) viewing.

The start was very astute on the way people behave (I am talking about the traffic jam). An awfull lot of people will still drive, even when walking is quicker.

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2007,13:45   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Mar. 01 2007,00:49)
BTW, if someone is looking for Idiocracy and they really can't locate it, let me know (PM).

Idiocracy arrived this morning. Seen it twice and consider it very funny (but scarily plausible).

Trouble is that last night I watched the Corporation.
Now that was quite a frightening hypothesis.

http://www.thecorporation.com/

Have you seen it? If so, what do you think about it?

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2007,18:07   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 20 2007,13:45)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Mar. 01 2007,00:49)
BTW, if someone is looking for Idiocracy and they really can't locate it, let me know (PM).

Idiocracy arrived this morning. Seen it twice and consider it very funny (but scarily plausible).

Trouble is that last night I watched the Corporation.
Now that was quite a frightening hypothesis.

http://www.thecorporation.com/

Have you seen it? If so, what do you think about it?

I've seen "The Corporation" and it is indeed pretty scary, especially since it's not hard to believe.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2007,13:34   

Quote (GCT @ Mar. 20 2007,17:07)
...
I've seen "The Corporation" and it is indeed pretty scary, especially since it's not hard to believe.

Although I suspect some considerable bias in it's making, I doubt that the "facts" presented are very far off the mark. Overall, it does look as though we are headed to #### in a handbasket and it is mostly of our own making. I dread the World that my great-grandchildren arrive in.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,15:08   

Seen The Hovind Music Video yet?

Funny, funny stuff.

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Steverino



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,19:51   

To paraphrase from the movie "Fletch", Kent Hovind molests Collies.

--------------
- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

   
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,20:33   

i finally watched that "homage to Hovind".

heh, I noticed the author used an image i posted to this very board a year or so ago (the BW of the head-up-ass fella).  It had to be that one, because I edited it out of a magazine ad from way back in 1997, and stripped out a lot of the overlying advertising text.

but of course, now I'm going to have the chorus running around my head the rest of the day...

"You're a fucktard... Aren't you Kent?"

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

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Albatrossity2



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,07:10   

Bump.

Jesus' General has a post entitled "The Wit and Wisdom of Dr. Dino", with some choice quotes from Hovind, e.g.
Quote
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. Think about that.
.
But, per usual for that blog, the best stuff is in the comments...

Enjoy!

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,07:46   

wow.

Quote

One theory is that the pre-Flood Earth had a canopy of ice above it that squeezed the atmosphere down to, say, 15 miles [...] If you squeezed the air down to 15 miles - instead of 100 - it would be more clear because there would be less distortion - atmospheric twinkle it's called. And probably this canopy of ice would act as a photo-amplifier where you would actually see things much more clearly. That's one theory that [in] the pre-Flood world you don't need a telescope - you could see incredibly well.
Truth Radio 2 October 2006 @ 19:45


If you can read that and not notice that it's completely insane...



...yew jess might be a creationist.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,07:48   

Quote

In spite of their ferocious look, many people would probably argue the T-Rex was a vegetarian. The ferocious teeth would have been great for, you know, crushing stuffed pumpkins or something, you know. I don't know if it has ever been proven they were meat eaters. There is plenty of evidence from cracks in the enamel with chlorophyll stains in them indicating they were certainly eating plants.
Truth Radio 28 September 2006 @ 10:00 (Tape 1)




"MMMMM TOFURKEY!"

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,07:51   

Quote (Lou FCD @ June 24 2007,16:08)
Seen The Hovind Music Video yet?

Funny, funny stuff.

Same tune, Even funnier video...

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,07:51   

Quote
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.
Truth Radio 1 August 2006 (Tape 1)



   
Altabin



Posts: 308
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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,07:58   

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 14 2007,14:51)
Quote
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.
Truth Radio 1 August 2006 (Tape 1)



The phrase "I don't know if I could prove this" elevates standard-issue tard to immortal comedy.

--------------

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,08:01   

Quote (Truth Radio @ 1 August 2006,(Tape 1))
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.


Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished for seeing his drunk ass dad naked, but the drunk ass dad didn't get in trouble at all.  It's almost endearing.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,08:12   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,08:01)
Quote (Truth Radio @ 1 August 2006,(Tape 1))
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.


Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished for seeing his drunk ass dad naked, but the drunk ass dad didn't get in trouble at all.  It's almost endearing.

I think I see one of UD's newest posters beginning to take shape...  It works on so many levels.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,08:13   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,09:01)
Quote (Truth Radio @ 1 August 2006,(Tape 1))
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.


Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished for seeing his drunk ass dad naked, but the drunk ass dad didn't get in trouble at all.  It's almost endearing.

I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible.

all i can do is post this bit by Lewis Black, which pretty much sums it up.

Quote
that's the kind of sentence that when your brain hears it, it comes to a screeching halt. And the left-hand side of the brain looks at the right-hand side of the brain and says, 'It's dark in here, and we may die.'

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,08:27   

Perhaps I should clarify:

I was speaking specifically of the "it wasn't Noah's fault, he didn't know" idea of the last bit there.

I've always wondered why Ham and all his descendants were cursed for Ham's accidental sighting of drunk-and-passed-out Noah's peepee, but there's no big smack-down of Noah for getting drunk and passing out.

So setting aside the "vapor canopy" crap and the question of whether Ham and his issue deserved to be bitch-slapped for something that was totally accidental (not to mention the "so what?" factor), the question I've never gotten even an attempt at an answer for was, "Why did Noah get let off the hook?"

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Assassinator



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 18 2007,13:32   

Quote
Fair point Ichy. How would you suggest going about that? I wouldn't know where to start.

The bad things missionairy's did in South-America, Africa, and well all around the globe (and not only from 1 religion, or a religion at all, communism falls under that too imo)?

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2008,19:09   

Kent Hovind is the gift that keeps on giving.

The conversations with the invisible person in the sky continue on his blog, and he's dreaming of a comeback.  Now he's got Job, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Ruth, and a host of others on a conference call.  Dude has totally lost it at this point.

HT: Reverend Big Dumb Chimp

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: May 23 2008,08:14   

Old Kent still moving and shaking, even though he's in jail.

I found this on PZ's Pharyngula:

The Hovind Scale

A handy metric for evaluating ID Cist and YEC comments.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: May 23 2008,12:06   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,08:01)
Quote (Truth Radio @ 1 August 2006,(Tape 1))
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.


Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished for seeing his drunk ass dad naked, but the drunk ass dad didn't get in trouble at all.  It's almost endearing.

Elsewhere in the Bible, "uncovering nakedness" means having sex with.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: May 23 2008,12:45   

Quote (midwifetoad @ May 23 2008,13:06)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,08:01)
 
Quote (Truth Radio @ 1 August 2006,(Tape 1))
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.


Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished for seeing his drunk ass dad naked, but the drunk ass dad didn't get in trouble at all.  It's almost endearing.

Elsewhere in the Bible, "uncovering nakedness" means having sex with.

I've heard that interpretation applied to this passage before, but if you think about it, that makes the passage even more problematic for at least two reasons:

1.  Why did Shem and Japeth have to back into the cave with the blanket to cover up drunk-ass dad if the problem was explicitly sex as opposed to nudity?

2.  Noah would have had to be really, really, really blasted drunk to not notice his son giving him the back-door treatment.

(Is it even possible to be that drunk?  I suppose it is, but is it possible to be that drunk accidentally?  I sure as hell wouldn't want to deal with the hangover the next day week, that's for sure.)

eh, it's as believable as anything else in the Bible, I suppose.  At least there weren't any zombies or talking snakes in that story.

(Edited for clarification)

(Edited again for particularly egregious abuse of English grammar.)

Edited by Lou FCD on May 23 2008,13:48

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 26 2008,13:19   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,08:01)
Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished...

When I first glanced at this I thought you were referring to Ken Ham.  :D

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
midwifetoad



Posts: 3992
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 26 2008,17:22   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 26 2008,13:19)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,08:01)
Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished...

When I first glanced at this I thought you were referring to Ken Ham.  :D

Just wishing.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
angst



Posts: 6
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 31 2008,00:43   

From CSE Blogs:

     
Quote

–Send postcards and letters to:
Kent E. Hovind #06452-017
FCI Edgefield
P.O. BOX 725
Edgefield, SC. 29824 USA

LOL! I have nothing to say to teh servant of the lord tax evading prick but maybe you do. I'm sure he would appreciate hearing from you.  :D

  
tmac1238



Posts: 31
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2008,07:38   

Our country fears defeated dictators, laughs at people who fear black helicopters, chase the world for WMDs, and after not finding, laugh at people declared to be insane all under your noses.

How did these absurd things happening to America happen under the noses of such intelligent people?  All over the internet are very intelligent people constantly giving everyone who disagrees with them mental diagnoses.  How can the insane things happening in the world today take place under their noses.

I fear black helicopters.  And by that fear no one died.  I snickered and giggled when I saw a defeated dictator playing with his rubber ducky in no-fly-zones.  How is it those who accounted themselves mentally superior, were terrified?

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Public Death Threats Against All non-Catholics Detects all Propagandists:
http://www.TheirSecrets.info/AC....apI.htm
The Actual Purpose of the Iraq War:
http://www.TheirSecrets.info/iraqwar....war.htm
The Actual Purpose of the Patriot Act:
http://www.TheirSecrets.info/patriot....act.htm

   
tmac1238



Posts: 31
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2008,07:59   

What is the secret of this massive hatred against Kent Hovind?  What did he do to any of you personally?

Well he's in jail!  He's in jail!

So you all are getting practice making fun of him in jail, practicing till the day God's people are there?

We believe in the bible, and that books says a time will come when they will be hated of all nations--literally framed for crimes. (Matthew 24:9).

The issues surrounding this have already started.  The Patriot Act is set up claiming any American can be detained, condemned and destroyed in secret without them having opportunity to prove their innocence.  Unfortunately, Saddam Hussein didn't have to suffer from this, but got literal due process.  And now, at the same time with the imposition of the Patriot Act, the federal government is struggling against our own borders, working to make the "undocumented (undocumented by the Patriot Act also) to feel comfortable here."

The Communists and Nazis already had secret courts, secret trials, intrusive government and torture before we adopted them on paper.  Do we also have a massive propaganda team everywhere--even on the internet--who work with unity to push some of the most ridiculous things making America go backward, here?

--------------
Public Death Threats Against All non-Catholics Detects all Propagandists:
http://www.TheirSecrets.info/AC....apI.htm
The Actual Purpose of the Iraq War:
http://www.TheirSecrets.info/iraqwar....war.htm
The Actual Purpose of the Patriot Act:
http://www.TheirSecrets.info/patriot....act.htm

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2008,08:19   

Hovind *and* Black Helicopters. I guess the delusions come in groups.

You are the people dragging america backwards. Keep lying for Jesus!

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2008,12:37   

Quote (tmac1238 @ June 28 2008,07:59)
What is the secret of this massive hatred against Kent Hovind?  What did he do to any of you personally?

One down, many to go...

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2008,13:10   

Quote (tmac1238 @ June 28 2008,08:38)
How did these absurd things happening to America happen under the noses of such intelligent people?  All over the internet are very intelligent people constantly giving everyone who disagrees with them mental diagnoses.  How can the insane things happening in the world today take place under their noses.

The Xian hegemony in this country has been going on for quite a bit longer than the intarwebs.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2008,13:17   

Quote (tmac1238 @ June 28 2008,08:59)
What is the secret of this massive hatred against Kent Hovind?  What did he do to any of you personally?

Well, he bilked people out of their money, he set back education in the country (which does affect us all), and he set tax-payers back with his tax evasion schemes (which also affects us all)...and that's just for starters.
Quote
Well he's in jail!  He's in jail!

Where he deserves to be.
Quote
So you all are getting practice making fun of him in jail, practicing till the day God's people are there?

Nope, just those who break the law.
Quote
We believe in the bible, and that books says a time will come when they will be hated of all nations--literally framed for crimes. (Matthew 24:9).

It does not say that anyone will be framed for crimes, and besides, Hovind wasn't framed.
Quote
The issues surrounding this have already started.  The Patriot Act is set up claiming any American can be detained, condemned and destroyed in secret without them having opportunity to prove their innocence.

And I don't support the Patriot Act, which incidentally, your friends in Christ enacted.
Quote
The Communists and Nazis already had secret courts, secret trials, intrusive government and torture before we adopted them on paper.

Which, again, your friends in Christ enacted.  Perhaps you and your Xian friends should denounce those other Xians.
Quote
Do we also have a massive propaganda team everywhere--even on the internet--who work with unity to push some of the most ridiculous things making America go backward, here?

Why are you calling for propaganda?  Anyway, there are organizations that are fighting against the fascist leanings of our very Xian president...like the ACLU.  Perhaps you should support them.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,16:35   

I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.

As for Dr. Hovinds' state of mind, what does what expect to see from a normally human person, a good man, a church going God-fearing man who is persecuted by the very forses that keep God out of schools?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10756
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,16:46   

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,16:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.

As for Dr. Hovinds' state of mind, what does what expect to see from a normally human person, a good man, a church going God-fearing man who is persecuted by the very forses that keep God out of schools?

I give your parody 7/10.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,17:05   

Needs more misspelled words and a lot more caps. Random font and color changes wouldn't hurt, either.

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,17:09   

+1 for paranoia though, that was a nice touch.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,17:39   

What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?

   
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,17:41   

Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,18:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?

Yes, better.

Quote
creatard


Excellent touch.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:05   

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 30 2008,16:46)
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,16:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.

As for Dr. Hovinds' state of mind, what does what expect to see from a normally human person, a good man, a church going God-fearing man who is persecuted by the very forses that keep God out of schools?

I give your parody 7/10.

What parody?

What do you mean 7/10?

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:11   

Quote (Chayanov @ June 30 2008,17:05)
Needs more misspelled words and a lot more caps. Random font and color changes wouldn't hurt, either.

Hey, even I know ALL CAPS is rude.  As for my spelling, well I guess it's better to shoot the messenger when you can't handle the message.

I'm trying to be polite here.  You guys are making it hard to have a real discussion.  And yes Dr. Hovind has shown the cowardise of Evolution lackeys and their masters.  I noticed that noone yet has agreed to debate Dr. Hovind.

While I've only been on here a little while, I've seen that professor from Florida, Joe Meart, and his half hearten attempt.  He won't agree to reasonable terms so he's, as we say it, "are blowing smoke".

One thing, why is "random caps" and "color changes" something to look for?

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:12   

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,21:05)
Quote (Richardthughes @ June 30 2008,16:46)
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,16:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.

As for Dr. Hovinds' state of mind, what does what expect to see from a normally human person, a good man, a church going God-fearing man who is persecuted by the very forses that keep God out of schools?

I give your parody 7/10.

What parody?

What do you mean 7/10?

I'm a bit more discerning, and would have given 5, tops.

Anyone at all biting on this?

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:12   

Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,17:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?

Your mocking me aren't you?

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:16   

Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,15:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?

You have a gift. Use it for good instead of evil.

lcd could learn from you, hint hint.


(PS: Mix up 'there', 'their' and 'they're' more.)

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:17   

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,21:12)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,17:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?

Your mocking me aren't you?

What gave it away?

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:18   

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,20:12)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,17:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?

Your mocking me aren't you?

Only on the surface. Deep inside we are seeing our whole worldview collapse at the feet of your incisive logic.  We are scared of the dark that is enveloping us and we shake our fists at it in a futile attempt to stave off the inevitable.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:29   

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,14:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.

I heered them revenooers was after him for his moonshine still.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:33   

Quote (carlsonjok @ June 30 2008,18:18)
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,20:12)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,17:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?

Your mocking me aren't you?

Only on the surface. Deep inside we are seeing our whole worldview collapse at the feet of your incisive logic.  We are scared of the dark that is enveloping us and we shake our fists at it in a futile attempt to stave off the inevitable.

Yeah, I near pissed my pants with... well not really.

It isn't even that funny. If Icd is a pretend creato, we can do it better. If they are for real, then it is merely pathetic.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:34   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,20:16)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,15:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?

You have a gift. Use it for good instead of evil.

lcd could learn from you, hint hint.


(PS: Mix up 'there', 'their' and 'they're' more.)

Learn what?  I don't understand what you're getting at.

As for telling people to purposely misspell words, I'll do my best to stop.  I'll run this through Word and so there will be no spelling errors.

As for what Saddlebred wrote, that is just wrong.  The worst part is I doubt if they even believe what they wrote.  Yeah, the great Evolutionists.  I guess mocking is what they are all about.

But I will pray for you all.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:37   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,18:29)
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,14:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.

I heered them revenooers was after him for his moonshine still.

When I was in Georgia, there was a candidate for county sheriff who ran on the promise that he would "Clean up the moonshiners."  He didn't mean to shut them down, just "clean them up." It seems there were some poor quality 'shiners who used lead solder, and over cooked (ran the still too hot).  This resulted in a dangerous mix of toxins.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:39   

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,21:34)
The worst part is I doubt if they even believe what they wrote.  

Can't slip nuthin' by you, huh?

I'm guessing lame imitation.  Dr. GH is right, we can do much better.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
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Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:47   

Quote (Dr.GH @ June 30 2008,18:37)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,18:29)
   
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,14:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.

I heered them revenooers was after him for his moonshine still.

When I was in Georgia, there was a candidate for county sheriff who ran on the promise that he would "Clean up the moonshiners."  He didn't mean to shut them down, just "clean them up." It seems there were some poor quality 'shiners who used lead solder, and over cooked (ran the still too hot).  This resulted in a dangerous mix of toxins.

In Nick Tosches' bio of Jerry Lee Lewis, he mentions an incident where they found a dead cottonmouth in Jerry Lee's uncle's still.

Steve would probably drink that.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,20:59   

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,20:34)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,20:16)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,15:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?

You have a gift. Use it for good instead of evil.

lcd could learn from you, hint hint.


(PS: Mix up 'there', 'their' and 'they're' more.)

Learn what?  I don't understand what you're getting at.

As for telling people to purposely misspell words, I'll do my best to stop.  I'll run this through Word and so there will be no spelling errors.

As for what Saddlebred wrote, that is just wrong.  The worst part is I doubt if they even believe what they wrote.  Yeah, the great Evolutionists.  I guess mocking is what they are all about.

But I will pray for you all.

lcd - I think you owe American Saddlebred an apology.  He is one of this board's most reverent members, and just because he posts like  your average Creotard, doesn't mean he iS one.  

Get down on your knees and beg forgiveness, for vengence is mine sayeth The Lord.  And Fred Phelps.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,21:10   

Quote (Lou FCD @ June 30 2008,20:39)
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,21:34)
The worst part is I doubt if they even believe what they wrote.  

Can't slip nuthin' by you, huh?

I'm guessing lame imitation.  Dr. GH is right, we can do much better.

"Lame imitation"?

"We can do much better"?

Oh, I get it.  You can do a parody of what you believe people like me who know and believe in God's word as the way it was, is and will be, better?  So you guys make up "strawmen" to knock down and pretend to be believers?

Isn't that a lot like saying that when you guys run low on women, do a few of you pretend to be ladies?  Would that be something you guys take turns at?

I guess that to be a "better creationist", in your guys opinions, means that I have to act like saddlebags there and be a "returd" or whatever the name you want to use?

So in your language:  Ah yes, the brain power of the evolutionist continues to impress me, not.

I was told about this place, actually WWW.TALKORIGINS.ORG from our VBS at the Church last week.  It ran from the 22nd to the 26th.  I prefer the concise and clear answers given by the good people at Trueorigins, but I digress.  There's a lot to be learned at VBS.  I'd invite you all to try it at a Church of your choice.  Although I will say it should be at a Bible believing Church.

See I now know why you guys are upset.  We have answers.  We have Christ.  Now, I'm not going to get all upset and, I mean I'll try to do my best, because we were taught to feel sorry for you.

Evolution is materialism at it's worst, and that's a fact.  If Evolution were true, then we wouldn't be here.  Yes, that is a fact.  Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  After all, look at Stalin, Mao and other atheists who supported evolution.  Granted it may not be what you guys now have put on the mantle of your altar of science now, evolution can never be disproved as it is always shifting the goal posts, but they were atheists and as atheists they sure as heck didn't believe in Creation now did they?

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,21:20   

As a wise person once said, once they believe in the talking snake, everything else is easy.   :D

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,21:23   

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,19:10)
If Evolution were true, then we wouldn't be here.

The Nonsequitor of the Week award goes to...

   
Quote
Yes, that is a fact.  Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  


You're right. Ever since Jesus came, the world has been so much less violent.

 
Quote
That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.
 

By your secret weapon..... Kent Hovind! Eeeek! Run for the hills!!!!

 
Quote
After all, look at Stalin, Mao and other atheists who supported evolution. 


Stalin had Darwinists thrown in jail.

Please give me a reference where you found out about Mao's feelings about biology.

Incidentally, is there a reason why you left out Hitler's name there? Oversight?

 
Quote
Granted it may not be what you guys now have put on the mantle of your altar of science now,


Thanks for the vote of confidence, big fella. Maybe if you ever meet a real scientist your life, you'll learn even more.

   
Quote
evolution can never be disproved as it is always shifting the goal posts,


Since I assume your pastor told you all this, I suggest you ask him what 'projection' means.

   
Quote
but they were atheists and as atheists they sure as heck didn't believe in Creation now did they?


Yeah!!! And why do we still have apes?

Therefore, God.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,21:35   

Sorry, not biting.  You're a fake, and a rather poor one.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,21:52   

I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,22:23   

I'm not buying that Vacation Bible School points people to the TOA.

Most antievolution sites can't muster the gumption to link to the TOA or any other mainstream science sources.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,22:38   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,21:52)
I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.

You noticed that, too?

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,22:53   

Quote (Chayanov @ June 30 2008,20:38)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,21:52)
I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.

You noticed that, too?

I assume our highly edumacated vibes must have rubbed off on him.

He should thank us.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
jeffox



Posts: 667
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,04:36   

Arden wrote above:
Quote
I assume our highly edumacated vibes must have rubbed off on him.


Sorry, but my vibe shook itself off a long time ago.  Not that anybody in here needed to know that. . . .

:)

Oh, and ICD - if ya wanna go backtrolling, I can recommend a few good lakes to ya.  Just so's ya know.

:)

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,06:32   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,21:52)
I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.

Yup,


As I was being mocked for poor spelling, I never was very good at it, I decided to run my posts in Word first.  A bunch of helpful stuff there.  I especially like the stuff where it shows you spelled the word right but it's the wrong word.

Like write and right, their and there.

As for my first attempt on this board, I was tired and wrote quickly.  I've been taking my time to be as "edumacated" as the rest of you.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,06:35   

Quote
Isn't that a lot like saying that when you guys run low on women, do a few of you pretend to be ladies?


actually, that's not why.  in tarden's case it has nothing to do with how many other women there are.

but anyway i can do a better impression than that lcd.  don't make me pull out my bibble.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,06:55   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 30 2008,22:23)
I'm not buying that Vacation Bible School points people to the TOA.

Most antievolution sites can't muster the gumption to link to the TOA or any other mainstream science sources.

Actually that was addressed during the class.  For too long, the internet had been used to lie about many things.  One of those things is the so called "overwhelming proof" of evolution.  Well I don't see and be honest, neither do you.

Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.  The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.

But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.

What is most interesting sir, and your name did come up if that makes you feel special, was the amount of money spent on trying to prove evolution.  Why is that sir?  If you think it's already true, then why do you guys feel the need to keep on trying to prove it?

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,07:13   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ July 01 2008,06:35)
Quote
Isn't that a lot like saying that when you guys run low on women, do a few of you pretend to be ladies?


actually, that's not why.  in tarden's case it has nothing to do with how many other women there are.

but anyway i can do a better impression than that lcd.  don't make me pull out my bibble.

Please do pull out your Bible.  Perhaps you'll learn the truth of it.

But as many have said before ID is not religious.  It is being backed up with fact and proof.

If you want to pull out your Bible please do.  I'd like to hear your thoughts on God's Word.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,07:38   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,06:55)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 30 2008,22:23)
I'm not buying that Vacation Bible School points people to the TOA.

Most antievolution sites can't muster the gumption to link to the TOA or any other mainstream science sources.

Actually that was addressed during the class.  For too long, the internet had been used to lie about many things.  One of those things is the so called "overwhelming proof" of evolution.  Well I don't see and be honest, neither do you.

Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.  The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.

But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.

What is most interesting sir, and your name did come up if that makes you feel special, was the amount of money spent on trying to prove evolution.  Why is that sir?  If you think it's already true, then why do you guys feel the need to keep on trying to prove it?

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.

Well, ok.
Quote
Actually that was addressed during the class.  For too long, the internet had been used to lie about many things.

For too long books have been used to lie about many things too. So what.
Quote
One of those things is the so called "overwhelming proof" of evolution.  Well I don't see and be honest, neither do you.

Where have you looked? What books have you read? You might have to leave the internet to do this, you realize that right?
Quote
Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.

Can you list these "problems"?
Quote
The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.

I tell you what, you coward. Why don't you pick a "problem" from your list (not that it's anything other then the usual ICR talking points) and detail it here. Then, I have no doubt, one of the many experts here can discuss it with you.

Are you afraid to challenge your faith?

Quote
But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.

I'm glad your kids liked it. It just means that your children will not be able to compete with mine in the marketplace.


Quote
What is most interesting sir, and your name did come up if that makes you feel special, was the amount of money spent on trying to prove evolution.

It's funny but megachurches in the USA bring in millions a week. What are they trying to prove in that case?

And nobody is trying to prove anything. People like you can't be reached via rational means (prove me wrong, accept the challenge to discuss on of these "problems" you mention).
Quote
Why is that sir?  If you think it's already true, then why do you guys feel the need to keep on trying to prove it?

Oddly it's you that should answer this question, if you are so convinced your deity exists then why are you so afraid of science and progress?
Quote

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.

Why don't you go ask a megachurch to fund a lab.

And in any case, ID/Creation has a lab already, the biologic people. What have they discovered so far? Zilch.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,07:41   

Quote

Please do pull out your Bible.  Perhaps you'll learn the truth of it.

Which is what exactly?

 
Quote
But as many have said before ID is not religious.  It is being backed up with fact and proof.

Your words are contradicted by the very people who represent ID. It's no surprise that "fact" and "proof" mean different things to you.

Or do you mean "facts" like "DNA is very complex and is a code, only designers design codes therefore DNA was designed"

Is that the sort of "proof" you mean?

 
Quote
If you want to pull out your Bible please do.  I'd like to hear your thoughts on God's Word.

After we hear your thoughts on those "problems", sure, no problem.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,08:27   

Whoa whoa whoa whoa! When did mocking liars/suckers/morons (delete as applicable) and IDCIsts...but I repeat myself....become a BAD thing?

Three strikes and out. Discuss sensibly once...discuss sensibly twice...make last ditch attempt at sensible discussion......MOCK!

Lcd seems to have missed the part where IDCists and their ancestors keep trying to force religious dogma into schools claiming it (falsely) to be science. Maybe THAT'S why people have to deal with them occasionally, no matter how unpleasant it might be.

Louis

EDIT: Unless of course lcd is a loki or a sock. Kids4truth? Come onnnnnnnn.

--------------
Bye.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,08:38   

Quote (Louis @ July 01 2008,08:27)
EDIT: Unless of course lcd is a loki or a sock. Kids4truth? Come onnnnnnnn.

lcd?  Lowest Common Denominator? More likely than not.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,08:42   

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:38)
Quote (Louis @ July 01 2008,08:27)
EDIT: Unless of course lcd is a loki or a sock. Kids4truth? Come onnnnnnnn.

lcd?  Lowest Common Denominator? More likely than not.

Yes, that is what the the initials stand for.

As I see many others have initials for their names on this bored, I thought I'd do the same.  The only question was which initials.

I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.

Obviously I was wrong.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,08:43   

Quote (Louis @ July 01 2008,08:27)
Whoa whoa whoa whoa! When did mocking liars/suckers/morons (delete as applicable) and IDCIsts...but I repeat myself....become a BAD thing?

Three strikes and out. Discuss sensibly once...discuss sensibly twice...make last ditch attempt at sensible discussion......MOCK!

Lcd seems to have missed the part where IDCists and their ancestors keep trying to force religious dogma into schools claiming it (falsely) to be science. Maybe THAT'S why people have to deal with them occasionally, no matter how unpleasant it might be.

Louis

EDIT: Unless of course lcd is a loki or a sock. Kids4truth? Come onnnnnnnn.

Try here:

http://kids4truth.com/hometwo.asp

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,08:53   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:42)
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:38)

lcd?  Lowest Common Denominator? More likely than not.

I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.

Obviously I was wrong.

Au contraire. We are having good natured fun.  And we aren't treating you as less than human.  We are treating you as less than sincere.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:00   

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:53)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:42)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:38)

lcd?  Lowest Common Denominator? More likely than not.

I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.

Obviously I was wrong.

Au contraire. We are having good natured fun.  And we aren't treating you as less than human.  We are treating you as less than sincere.

Don't really know what to do about that so I won't worry about.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:01   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:42)
I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.

Would you like to talk about Walt Brown and his Jellyfish theory?

I'd love to hear your side of the story.

Go here for the story so far.

Do you, as a creationist, find Walt's story credible?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:02   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,09:00)
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:53)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:42)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:38)

lcd?  Lowest Common Denominator? More likely than not.

I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.

Obviously I was wrong.

Au contraire. We are having good natured fun.  And we aren't treating you as less than human.  We are treating you as less than sincere.

Don't really know what to do about that so I won't worry about.

No response to my responses to your points?

Typical creationist tactic I suppose, pretend the difficult questions are not there.

Have you been learning from FTK LCD?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:03   

Quote
I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.


lcd, is 'creationism' good science?

is 'ID is good science' a faith claim?  can you show that it is true without invoking your 'belief'?

check out my sig line for how ID supporters here treat ID critics like dirt and as less than human.  I suspect you know the perpetrator.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:06   

oldmanintheskydidntdoit,


Since you've asked so nicely (was "coward" really needed?), here's some of the issues I've seen with evolution:

1:  It hasn't been seen.  Yes, I've read the Lemski debate over at Conservapedia and the comments made here, still the issue remains.  The E. coli in the experiment can now eat the stuff it's not supposed to eat.  But it is still E. Coli, right?  You've heard of Baraminolgy, right?  Even in full Creationists circles, kinds are well known.

2:  Where did the life come from to even evolve?

That is what the predictive power of ID can't be over looked.  ID can explain those things far better than anything I've ever seen evolution even try.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:08   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 01 2008,09:02)
No response to my responses to your points?

Typical creationist tactic I suppose, pretend the difficult questions are not there.

Have you been learning from FTK LCD?

I start from th bottom of the page and work up.

Also, I was taking time in gather what I thought were two good questions to start off with.

Sorry if my time table is not in sync with yours.  I'll worry about that another time.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:12   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,09:06)
Since you've asked so nicely (was "coward" really needed?), here's some of the issues I've seen with evolution:

1:  It hasn't been seen.  Yes, I've read the Lemski debate over at Conservapedia and the comments made here, still the issue remains.  The E. coli in the experiment can now eat the stuff it's not supposed to eat.  But it is still E. Coli, right?  You've heard of Baraminolgy, right?  Even in full Creationists circles, kinds are well known.

2:  Where did the life come from to even evolve?

I'm disappointed.  You forgot:

3. No transitional fossils.

4. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Plus, on your point one, you forgot that no one has seen a half-cat, half dog.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:13   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,09:06)
oldmanintheskydidntdoit,


Since you've asked so nicely (was "coward" really needed?), here's some of the issues I've seen with evolution:

1:  It hasn't been seen.  Yes, I've read the Lemski debate over at Conservapedia and the comments made here, still the issue remains.  The E. coli in the experiment can now eat the stuff it's not supposed to eat.  But it is still E. Coli, right?  You've heard of Baraminolgy, right?  Even in full Creationists circles, kinds are well known.

2:  Where did the life come from to even evolve?

That is what the predictive power of ID can't be over looked.  ID can explain those things far better than anything I've ever seen evolution even try.

   
Quote
Since you've asked so nicely (was "coward" really needed?), here's some of the issues I've seen with evolution:

As you have now responded, I apologize and retract that comment.

The word "evolution" can mean many things. Please, before you claim not to have seen it define what you mean, specifically, by "evolution".

   
Quote
That is what the predictive power of ID can't be over looked.  ID can explain those things far better than anything I've ever seen evolution even try.


Please prove that statement by one or more of the below

a) Showing me how ID can explain the origin of life
b) Showing me how ID can explain anything at all in a more accurate way then "evolution".
c) Showing me how "design" explains the loss of expression of hemoglobin and myoglobin in icefish.
d) Where did the life come from to even evolve (what does ID say about the origin of life - note you lose points for referring to the bible at this point).

If ID can explain these things "better" then the currently accepted understanding you will no doubt have easy answers to these questions.

EDIT: clarity

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:19   

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,09:12)
I'm disappointed.  You forgot:

3. No transitional fossils.

4. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Plus, on your point one, you forgot that no one has seen a half-cat, half dog.

#3 I think has merit, but I was really looking for one or two items so we can really dig into those.

As for #4, well, I hate to break it to my fellow Creationists and IDers but the 2nd Law only applies to closed systems.  While the Sun-Earth System can be considered a closed system, the Earth is not.  The energy reaching the Earth from the Sun, which follows the 2nd Law incredibly well, provides the energy needed.

The half cat-dog thing, well, there are dog kinds and cat kinds.  The two aren't the same.

No I can't defend, nor will I, the bad science that has come from some of the more intense believers in God's Word.  Yes, some of them do tend to say things without thinking it through.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:24   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,09:19)
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,09:12)
I'm disappointed.  You forgot:

3. No transitional fossils.

4. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Plus, on your point one, you forgot that no one has seen a half-cat, half dog.

#3 I think has merit, but I was really looking for one or two items so we can really dig into those.

As for #4, well, I hate to break it to my fellow Creationists and IDers but the 2nd Law only applies to closed systems.  While the Sun-Earth System can be considered a closed system, the Earth is not.  The energy reaching the Earth from the Sun, which follows the 2nd Law incredibly well, provides the energy needed.

The half cat-dog thing, well, there are dog kinds and cat kinds.  The two aren't the same.

No I can't defend, nor will I, the bad science that has come from some of the more intense believers in God's Word.  Yes, some of them do tend to say things without thinking it through.

Jellyfish. Let's show FTK that Creationists need have to fear to discuss such issues.

Or do they....

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:25   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 01 2008,09:13)
As you have now responded, I apologize and retract that comment.

Thank you.

I will get to these, but right now, I have to get to the work site.  The new additions are being finished and I'm supposed to be there.

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:31   

You are no better.

"Kinds" seems to be your only point. And that's pretty sad.

You don't even know how evolution is supposed to work, do you? The only thing you know are the lies you've been told.

It's not "Poof!". And its not quick morphs between stable states - its a constant state of change.

As for transitional fossils - we find them all the time. You've simply closed your eyes and refuse to see.

If you acknowledge that e. coli. changed, than you must acknowledge evolution. The micro .vs macro evolution thing is a strawman used only by the least intelligent, much like the thermodynamics thing. There is no difference. Small changes over time add up to very big changes.

Is your car a horse cart? No? Yet it was developed by a series of small changes. It is your belief that small changes can never amount to big changes, is it not?

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,09:32   

And as for IDs predictive power - please give one single prediction ID makes.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:02   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 01 2008,09:01)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:42)
I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.

Would you like to talk about Walt Brown and his Jellyfish theory?

I'd love to hear your side of the story.

Go here for the story so far.

Do you, as a creationist, find Walt's story credible?

Site's not ready until 1:00pm.  Imagine that.

I'm sure Dr. Brown studied long and hard, as I'm sure even Evolutionist scientists say they do, to come to the conclusions he did.  I'll have to read up more on what that's all about.

As for FTK, I think you were just getting them riled up.  To be honest, when I get mad as I'm sure many people do, I'm not always at my best.

I'll hve to read more before I give an opinion.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:06   

Quote
I'll hve to read more before I give an opinion.


why let being uninformed stop you?  it doesn't stop the rest of the creationists.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:15   

Quote (Nerull @ July 01 2008,09:31)
You are no better.

"Kinds" seems to be your only point. And that's pretty sad.

You don't even know how evolution is supposed to work, do you? The only thing you know are the lies you've been told.

It's not "Poof!". And its not quick morphs between stable states - its a constant state of change.

As for transitional fossils - we find them all the time. You've simply closed your eyes and refuse to see.

If you acknowledge that e. coli. changed, than you must acknowledge evolution. The micro .vs macro evolution thing is a strawman used only by the least intelligent, much like the thermodynamics thing. There is no difference. Small changes over time add up to very big changes.

Is your car a horse cart? No? Yet it was developed by a series of small changes. It is your belief that small changes can never amount to big changes, is it not?

Nerull?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerull

I take it you play DnD.  How do you like 4.0?  I like 3.5 much better.

Not much better?  Okay.

Evolution works by animals changing.  New species being made (and you've seen this when?) from old ones.  The gain of information, somehow, from mutations that are almost always fatal.  Interesting that there's some gain of information when it is so easily seen when codes get muddled and broken, the information in DNA, the result is a loss of information.

Transitional Fossil?  Where?

Oh, so no "Poof".  Well, in the class I was at, we learned about "Punctuated Equilibrium".  Wow.  There's a novel approach.  Things happen so fast that there are no fossils and this is from an evolutionist (rest his soul and may God forgive him and his atheism)!  So Evolution doesn't need Transitional Fossils now!  Again, where are these "transitional fossils"?

Well the E. Coli changed but it's still E. Coli!  So there's no evolution.  They may have had a trait come in from being dormant but how is that evolution when the culture is still E Coli?

The Horse Cart to a Car.  good analogy.  At each point in the design was there intelligence doing the changes.  Which is what ID is all about.

The predictive power of ID is powerful as it is simple:

When systems become so complex that one parts falls away, it stops working so how does it get to be in the first place?  The answer, "It was designed that way".

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:16   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ July 01 2008,10:06)
Quote
I'll hve to read more before I give an opinion.


why let being uninformed stop you?  it doesn't stop the rest of the creationists.

Why?  I have no desire to be like you.

:D

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:29   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:43)
Quote (Louis @ July 01 2008,08:27)
Whoa whoa whoa whoa! When did mocking liars/suckers/morons (delete as applicable) and IDCIsts...but I repeat myself....become a BAD thing?

Three strikes and out. Discuss sensibly once...discuss sensibly twice...make last ditch attempt at sensible discussion......MOCK!

Lcd seems to have missed the part where IDCists and their ancestors keep trying to force religious dogma into schools claiming it (falsely) to be science. Maybe THAT'S why people have to deal with them occasionally, no matter how unpleasant it might be.

Louis

EDIT: Unless of course lcd is a loki or a sock. Kids4truth? Come onnnnnnnn.

Try here:

http://kids4truth.com/hometwo.asp

Oh I've seen it Lcd, I've seen it. K4T is old hat even to me.

I have to say I'm curious as to where this "us vs them" idea comes from, there aren't "evolutionist" scientists and "creationist" scientists as some kind of opposed camps. Well there aren't "creationist scientists" at all but that's a different matter. The issue is that creationists simply have no evidence to support their claims, scientists (by which you can think I mean evolutionists if you so desire) do.

I think you need to stop thinking in such falsely dichotomous terms before you start with the science. It's the mistake we all made with FTK and Skeptic: it ain't about the science for them no matter what they say, it's all about the identity politics. Once you figure out it isn't some "evolutionist atheist meanness" versus "the holy and chosen children of god" or some such drivel, then a serious conversation can ensue. Until then: Mockery or Simply Being Ignored. The problem being of course that no one can figure this out for you.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:29   

I was waiting for punctuated equilibrium as soon as I heard "poof" mentioned.  A priest, a rabbi, and a Steven Jay Gould walk into a bar...

Even if E.coli "poofed" into another bacteria, wouldn't it still just be bacteria "kind?"  I mean, it isn't an entire kingdom, it's just a "kind."

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:30   

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,07:12)
Plus, on your point one, you forgot that no one has seen a half-cat, half dog.

you forgot, ... with wings.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:33   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,10:15)
 
Quote (Nerull @ July 01 2008,09:31)
You are no better.

"Kinds" seems to be your only point. And that's pretty sad.

You don't even know how evolution is supposed to work, do you? The only thing you know are the lies you've been told.

It's not "Poof!". And its not quick morphs between stable states - its a constant state of change.

As for transitional fossils - we find them all the time. You've simply closed your eyes and refuse to see.

If you acknowledge that e. coli. changed, than you must acknowledge evolution. The micro .vs macro evolution thing is a strawman used only by the least intelligent, much like the thermodynamics thing. There is no difference. Small changes over time add up to very big changes.

Is your car a horse cart? No? Yet it was developed by a series of small changes. It is your belief that small changes can never amount to big changes, is it not?

Nerull?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerull

I take it you play DnD.  How do you like 4.0?  I like 3.5 much better.

Not much better?  Okay.

Evolution works by animals changing.  New species being made (and you've seen this when?) from old ones.  The gain of information, somehow, from mutations that are almost always fatal.  Interesting that there's some gain of information when it is so easily seen when codes get muddled and broken, the information in DNA, the result is a loss of information.

Transitional Fossil?  Where?

Oh, so no "Poof".  Well, in the class I was at, we learned about "Punctuated Equilibrium".  Wow.  There's a novel approach.  Things happen so fast that there are no fossils and this is from an evolutionist (rest his soul and may God forgive him and his atheism)!  So Evolution doesn't need Transitional Fossils now!  Again, where are these "transitional fossils"?

Well the E. Coli changed but it's still E. Coli!  So there's no evolution.  They may have had a trait come in from being dormant but how is that evolution when the culture is still E Coli?

The Horse Cart to a Car.  good analogy.  At each point in the design was there intelligence doing the changes.  Which is what ID is all about.

The predictive power of ID is powerful as it is simple:

When systems become so complex that one parts falls away, it stops working so how does it get to be in the first place?  The answer, "It was designed that way".

 
Quote
The gain of information, somehow, from mutations that are almost always fatal.  Interesting that there's some gain of information when it is so easily seen when codes get muddled and broken, the information in DNA, the result is a loss of information.


Please tell me how much "information" there is in a particular organism that you choose.

Then please tell me how you have determined

a) The amount of information in that organism
b) What units this "information" is measured in
c) How you determined the amount of information in the organism you chose.
d) How you measured the decease or loss of information.

I don't believe you can even prove that there is information in a organism, let alone prove that a measurable loss occurred. Can you?

I ask again, what units is this information loss (when codes get muddled and broken) measured in?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:37   

Quote
I ask again, what units is this information loss (when codes get muddled and broken) measured in?


I propose Hovinds.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:38   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,06:55)
 
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 30 2008,22:23)
I'm not buying that Vacation Bible School points people to the TOA.

Most antievolution sites can't muster the gumption to link to the TOA or any other mainstream science sources.

Actually that was addressed during the class.  For too long, the internet had been used to lie about many things.  One of those things is the so called "overwhelming proof" of evolution.  Well I don't see and be honest, neither do you.


I see quite enough to convince people without an ideological precommitment that evolutionary science has made its case beyond reasonable doubt. That leaves the folks with unreasonable doubts unconvinced.

Quote

Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.  The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.


Oh, boy. Don't act like there's only been invective flowing in one direction.

Quote

But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.


If you like falsehoods, it sounds like you've hit the jackpot.

Quote

What is most interesting sir, and your name did come up if that makes you feel special, was the amount of money spent on trying to prove evolution.  Why is that sir?  If you think it's already true, then why do you guys feel the need to keep on trying to prove it?


My activist role isn't about "proving evolution". In that, I'm countering a corrupt socio-political program that aims to tell falsehoods to students in the guise of sham labels for religiously-motivated antievolution arguments.

Quote

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.


Most graduate students in evolutionary science manage to publish research papers, and many of them get just the support departments offer in the way of teaching assistant or research assistant stipends. And those aren't much, I can tell you. Back around 2002, the DI CRSC was handing out $40K/year fellowships for the IDC advocates to write op-eds, books, and do public speaking... at least, that's what they did with the money. You could fund two or sometimes three graduate students in evolutionary science for that amount of dough. Why are IDC advocates at that level (many if not all of them with terminal degrees) so much *less* productive, research-wise, than ordinary graduate students in mainstream science?

As I put it, maybe the DI CRSC was funding the wrong people. DI CRSC Fellow Paul Nelson was sitting next to the podium during my talk, and he just gave me a wounded look at that point.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:39   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,July 01 2008,10:37)
Quote
I ask again, what units is this information loss (when codes get muddled and broken) measured in?


I propose Hovinds.

I love it!

Several Hovinds of information were lost when the beetle kind radiated out into all the beetles we see today. Ancestral Beetle Kinds have their full compliment of Hovinds.

Works for me! :)

LCD, any news on how you are measuring this "loss of information" when mutations break things?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,11:09   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:55)
I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.

While your track record of ignoring questions addressed to you is pretty much what we expected, it's probably best for your sake if you didn't spend too much time on this idea of other people "believing things they haven't seen".

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,11:16   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 01 2008,10:33)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,10:15)
   
Quote (Nerull @ July 01 2008,09:31)
You are no better.

"Kinds" seems to be your only point. And that's pretty sad.

You don't even know how evolution is supposed to work, do you? The only thing you know are the lies you've been told.

It's not "Poof!". And its not quick morphs between stable states - its a constant state of change.

As for transitional fossils - we find them all the time. You've simply closed your eyes and refuse to see.

If you acknowledge that e. coli. changed, than you must acknowledge evolution. The micro .vs macro evolution thing is a strawman used only by the least intelligent, much like the thermodynamics thing. There is no difference. Small changes over time add up to very big changes.

Is your car a horse cart? No? Yet it was developed by a series of small changes. It is your belief that small changes can never amount to big changes, is it not?

Nerull?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerull

I take it you play DnD.  How do you like 4.0?  I like 3.5 much better.

Not much better?  Okay.

Evolution works by animals changing.  New species being made (and you've seen this when?) from old ones.  The gain of information, somehow, from mutations that are almost always fatal.  Interesting that there's some gain of information when it is so easily seen when codes get muddled and broken, the information in DNA, the result is a loss of information.

Transitional Fossil?  Where?

Oh, so no "Poof".  Well, in the class I was at, we learned about "Punctuated Equilibrium".  Wow.  There's a novel approach.  Things happen so fast that there are no fossils and this is from an evolutionist (rest his soul and may God forgive him and his atheism)!  So Evolution doesn't need Transitional Fossils now!  Again, where are these "transitional fossils"?

Well the E. Coli changed but it's still E. Coli!  So there's no evolution.  They may have had a trait come in from being dormant but how is that evolution when the culture is still E Coli?

The Horse Cart to a Car.  good analogy.  At each point in the design was there intelligence doing the changes.  Which is what ID is all about.

The predictive power of ID is powerful as it is simple:

When systems become so complex that one parts falls away, it stops working so how does it get to be in the first place?  The answer, "It was designed that way".

   
Quote
The gain of information, somehow, from mutations that are almost always fatal.  Interesting that there's some gain of information when it is so easily seen when codes get muddled and broken, the information in DNA, the result is a loss of information.


Please tell me how much "information" there is in a particular organism that you choose.

Then please tell me how you have determined

a) The amount of information in that organism
b) What units this "information" is measured in
c) How you determined the amount of information in the organism you chose.
d) How you measured the decease or loss of information.

I don't believe you can even prove that there is information in a organism, let alone prove that a measurable loss occurred. Can you?

I ask again, what units is this information loss (when codes get muddled and broken) measured in?

I heard someone using "bits" to measure that, although I after I asked more about it (how do you measure it, where does it come from, where are the publications about it, etc etc) it became awfully silent as usual. The only "bits" I've ever seen in something actually scientific, was in an online sequencing program (I think BLAST but I'm not sure) a while ago. Can't remember exactly in wich context though.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,11:25   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,11:09)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:55)
I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.

While your track record of ignoring questions addressed to you is pretty much what we expected, it's probably best for your sake if you didn't spend too much time on this idea of other people "believing things they haven't seen".

I get asked a lot of questions.  I also am trying to do my job.  I will answer what I can to the best of my ability.

So forgive me if I can't always meet your timetable.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,11:28   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,12:25)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,11:09)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:55)
I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.

While your track record of ignoring questions addressed to you is pretty much what we expected, it's probably best for your sake if you didn't spend too much time on this idea of other people "believing things they haven't seen".

I get asked a lot of questions.  I also am trying to do my job.  I will answer what I can to the best of my ability.

So forgive me if I can't always meet your timetable.

No big rush.  It's not like these are new questions that have never been asked.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,11:38   

I am just burning to know how many "kinds" there are and how a Baraminologist  :p  classifies animals into their respective "kinds".  For a burgeoning science, Baraminology doesn't seem to have any set rules.  How odd.  Not.

Point of fact, if the creationist morons had just stuck to the miracle of "God did it" and not tried to invent science-like shit to explain something as incredibly stupid and impossible as a global flood which wiped out all living things except two of each animal (without leaving a trace!) they wouldn't be forced to pull things like "kinds" out of their asses.

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,11:49   

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,09:28)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,12:25)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,11:09)
 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:55)
I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.

While your track record of ignoring questions addressed to you is pretty much what we expected, it's probably best for your sake if you didn't spend too much time on this idea of other people "believing things they haven't seen".

I get asked a lot of questions.  I also am trying to do my job.  I will answer what I can to the best of my ability.

So forgive me if I can't always meet your timetable.

No big rush.  It's not like these are new questions that have never been asked.

And our expectations are admittedly pretty low.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,11:53   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:32)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,21:52)
I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.

Yup,

As I was being mocked for poor spelling, I never was very good at it, I decided to run my posts in Word first.  A bunch of helpful stuff there.  I especially like the stuff where it shows you spelled the word right but it's the wrong word.

Like write and right, their and there.

It seems to have done wonders for your grammar and sentence structure, too.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,11:58   

LCD - another challenge for you!

Pick a single thing. Anything. It's up to you.

Show us

a) What ID or creationism predicts regarding that.
b) What "evolution" predicts regarding that.

And then show us why the answer is more accurate for A then B.

For example.

A global flood.

Creationism predicts that fossils will be found all mixed together due to the flood waters being chaotic, but with filtering by size (smallest to largest) when they settled and fossilized.

Evolution predicts that fossils will be found in chronological order, not size order.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
argystokes



Posts: 766
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,12:12   

Very interesting that this fellow is a fan of Kids4truth, since that organization's founder got his antievolution start right here at AtBC! Shall we dig up the blatant lies of AFDave / Dave Hawkins? Shouldn't take too long.

Edit: Ah, a little more reading before posting was warranted. Poor parody.

--------------
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin

  
Gunthernacus



Posts: 235
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,12:19   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,07:55)
Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.  The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.

But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.

[snip]

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.

This is the first time in your participation on this thread that ID has been brought up.  You did it and you tied it to Creationism.

   
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:13)
But as many have said before ID is not religious.

This is the second time in your participation on this thread that ID has been brought up.  And, again, you did it.  Is this the talking point you've wanted to get to all along?  Anyway, before these comments you wrote:

   
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,22:10)
Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  After all, look at Stalin, Mao and other atheists who supported evolution.  Granted it may not be what you guys now have put on the mantle of your altar of science now, evolution can never be disproved as it is always shifting the goal posts, but they were atheists and as atheists they sure as heck didn't believe in Creation now did they?

I don't agree with you, but I'll set that aside for the moment.  In your opinion, can atheists believe in ID?  You say that evolution is "the idea that we have no meaning" and that it "must be defeated".  Defeated by what?  Non-religious ID?  Does non-religious ID offer "the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth"?  What meaning does ID offer for we humans or life in general - and how does ID come to that conclusion?

--------------
Given that we are all descended from Adam and Eve...genetic defects as a result of intra-family marriage would not begin to crop up until after the first few dozen generations. - Dr. Hugh Ross

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,12:34   

To add this to the pile of questions LCD won't adequately answer:

 
Quote
Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  


There are millions of Christians who accept evolution. Therefore your dichotomy of "the opposite of Christian is Darwinist" is bogus.

Where in your cosmology do religious people who accept evolution fit in? Are they worse than atheists?

And if ID has nothing to do with religion, why do no nonreligious people accept it?

Oh, and at some point I would like to hear why you didn't lump Hitler in with Stalin and Mao.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,12:41   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,11:53)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:32)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,21:52)
I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.

Yup,

As I was being mocked for poor spelling, I never was very good at it, I decided to run my posts in Word first.  A bunch of helpful stuff there.  I especially like the stuff where it shows you spelled the word right but it's the wrong word.

Like write and right, their and there.

It seems to have done wonders for your grammar and sentence structure, too.

Glad you noticed.  I will admit in being tired, sore and a bit when I was just typing too quickly.  So as not to offend you anymore and make you think that I'm flip flopping, I won't post unless I think its really needed when I'm tired.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,12:46   

Instead of using this apparent troll as a creationist chew toy, I recommend going to real creationists and responding to them. I have taken to registering at newspapers following evo/creato articles and responding to the comments. Few sites allow links, and none allow using jpegs, but they are where the creatos really are.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,12:59   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,10:41)
Glad you noticed.  I will admit in being tired, sore and a bit when I was just typing too quickly.  So as not to offend you anymore and make you think that I'm flip flopping, I won't post unless I think its really needed when I'm tired.

I wouldn't say that you're 'offending' anyone here.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:02   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,18:59)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,10:41)
Glad you noticed.  I will admit in being tired, sore and a bit when I was just typing too quickly.  So as not to offend you anymore and make you think that I'm flip flopping, I won't post unless I think its really needed when I'm tired.

I wouldn't say that you're 'offending' anyone here.

Yup, "offending" is definitely the wrong word. "Conforming to the very predictable patterns of standard creationist drivel to the extent that LCD is boring" is a better choice of terminology. Not as snappy I grant you, but much more accurate.

Louis

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Bye.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:03   

To all, especially oldmanintheskydidntdoit


What would you take as evidence?  I can hear all of you now, "Another ID dodge".  This is not the case.  More than a few other Creationists and IDists may have tried, it seems too many times they get ridiculed or shouted down.

So what would you people take?  Things such as Dembski's Design Filter can be used, although it may need to be perfected.  Is that a problem?  Why is Evolution allowed to change stripes, "Punctuated Equilibrium", no wait, "Gradualism", oh that don't work, back to "Uniformism"?  It seems as those ID Theories, some of which may be still being built upon, doesn't get the same respect.

When it comes to Information contained in DNA, it is obvious it exists.  Without that Information, there would be no inherited traits.  A Palm Tree in such a situation can produce seeds that grow an Elm.  Without information in DNA, Monkeys could really give birth to humans and an E. Coli can divide and instead of two E Coli cells, you have an embryonic cat on one side and a dog on the other.

So from that we know there is information contained in the DNA.

Information, can and does get lost.  A strand of DNA doesn't replicate correctly and the sites in the genes that tells a cell to stop dividing gets lost.  So now you have a cancer cell.  The loss of that information prevents it from no longer being able to stop multiplying.  Loss of info must be a bad thing.

So how does one measure the information in DNA?  Good question and  I don't rightly know.  I guess it would take time and money.  From the other thread, one scientist was given 20 years to try and change E. Coli into something else.  All he was able to do was change what they eat.  Is that a change or loss of information?  I'd say loss as it seems to state that the "new strain" of E. Coli doesn't do as well when there's both forms of nutrition for all the E. Coli to consume.

I stated previously about the amount of money given to do dogmatic Evolutionary Science.  Why don't we try giving ARN or DI 20 years and lots of taxpayer money to come up with something in 20 years?

Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:08   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,12:34)
To add this to the pile of questions LCD won't adequately answer:

   
Quote
Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  


There are millions of Christians who accept evolution. Therefore your dichotomy of "the opposite of Christian is Darwinist" is bogus.

Where in your cosmology do religious people who accept evolution fit in? Are they worse than atheists?

And if ID has nothing to do with religion, why do no nonreligious people accept it?

Oh, and at some point I would like to hear why you didn't lump Hitler in with Stalin and Mao.

There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

Real Christians follow God's Word and believe it as such.  If you're going to say, "Well lot's of Christians feel that Evolution and the Bible can both exist", obviously aren't.

I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:16   

Quote (Gunthernacus @ July 01 2008,12:19)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,07:55)
Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.  The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.

But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.

[snip]

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.

This is the first time in your participation on this thread that ID has been brought up.  You did it and you tied it to Creationism.

   
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:13)
But as many have said before ID is not religious.

This is the second time in your participation on this thread that ID has been brought up.  And, again, you did it.  Is this the talking point you've wanted to get to all along?  Anyway, before these comments you wrote:

   
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,22:10)
Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  After all, look at Stalin, Mao and other atheists who supported evolution.  Granted it may not be what you guys now have put on the mantle of your altar of science now, evolution can never be disproved as it is always shifting the goal posts, but they were atheists and as atheists they sure as heck didn't believe in Creation now did they?

I don't agree with you, but I'll set that aside for the moment.  In your opinion, can atheists believe in ID?  You say that evolution is "the idea that we have no meaning" and that it "must be defeated".  Defeated by what?  Non-religious ID?  Does non-religious ID offer "the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth"?  What meaning does ID offer for we humans or life in general - and how does ID come to that conclusion?

Here's a shock for you.

I have no problem confirming that ID is part of Creationism.  What I don't agree with though is that without the Bible, ID would fall apart.

I feel just the opposite.  Imagine a world where God unknown and Jesus hadn't saved anyone.  A truly terrible place.  I could see real scientists looking for better ways to kill other people for their evil governments and looking into bio warfare.

The goal is to "build a better bug".  The scientists start and some of them notice the unmistakable signs of design in these microbes.  Their conclusion is that someone already designed them.  Perhaps that is what can help them discover God and all of His Glory.

So ID can lead people back to God and His Word as well as His Word leading people to ID and His Creation.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:21   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,12:34)
Where in your cosmology do religious people who accept evolution fit in? Are they worse than atheists?

Oh, and at some point I would like to hear why you didn't lump Hitler in with Stalin and Mao.

For these questions:

#1:  Many of them are well meaning but confused.  I'm sure many feel that to be accepted they must conform to some notion of what it means to be sophisticated.

#2:  Using Hitler, I was taught, is wrong to lump him with evolution.  Hitler wasn't an atheist.  He was some kind of Pagan/New Age/Catholic Cult who tried to change religion into his own ideals.  Besides there's that thing that when one starts comparing others to Nazis or Hitler, they automatically lose.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:22   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:08)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,12:34)
To add this to the pile of questions LCD won't adequately answer:

       
Quote
Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  


There are millions of Christians who accept evolution. Therefore your dichotomy of "the opposite of Christian is Darwinist" is bogus.

Where in your cosmology do religious people who accept evolution fit in? Are they worse than atheists?

And if ID has nothing to do with religion, why do no nonreligious people accept it?

Oh, and at some point I would like to hear why you didn't lump Hitler in with Stalin and Mao.

There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

Real Christians follow God's Word and believe it as such.  If you're going to say, "Well lot's of Christians feel that Evolution and the Bible can both exist", obviously aren't.


It's not so obvious to millions of people, including Christians.

So Christians who accept evolution aren't REAL Christians? Is that the statement you're signing on to?

Who gets to pick? You?

As you know, the Vatican has come out in support of evolution. Are Catholics not 'real Christians'?

Michael Behe has conceded common descent. Is he not a 'real Christian'?

   
Quote
I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?


Do you keep kosher?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:25   

Quote

I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?


Yeah, tell those nasty bishops at Hippo what for!

Quote

At the Synod of Hippo (393), and again at the Synod of 397 at Carthage, a list of the books of Holy Scripture was drawn up. It is the Catholic canon (i.e. including the books later classed by Protestants as "Apocrypha").


Oh, yes, and the Protestant reformers who kicked out the Apocrypha. Best not to forget them.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:27   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

I think RtH gets credit here for calling "no true Scotsman". Out of curiosity, what was the pot up to?

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:28   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:03)
Without information in DNA, Monkeys could really give birth to humans and an E. Coli can divide and instead of two E Coli cells, you have an embryonic cat on one side and a dog on the other.

Then you'd have something.



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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:30   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,13:22)
It's not so obvious to millions of people, including Christians.

So Christians who accept evolution aren't REAL Christians? Is that the statement you're signing on to?

Who gets to pick? You?

As you know, the Vatican has come out in support of evolution. Are Catholics not 'real Christians'?

Michael Behe has conceded common descent. Is he not a 'real Christian'?

   
Quote
I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?


Do you keep kosher?

For other Christians, I offer up only what I read in the Bible.

I don't judge them so I won't say what happens to them.  That is up to God.

As far as Kosher, I am not a full on vegetarian, I eat fish though no shell fish, shrimp, etc., and I'm lactose intolerant.  So no "meat with milk" for me.  So yes, I think I do.

Trust me we've had many "open and intense discussions" at church about following God's Laws.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:31   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:21)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,12:34)
Where in your cosmology do religious people who accept evolution fit in? Are they worse than atheists?

Oh, and at some point I would like to hear why you didn't lump Hitler in with Stalin and Mao.

For these questions:

#1:  Many of them are well meaning but confused.  I'm sure many feel that to be accepted they must conform to some notion of what it means to be sophisticated.

#2:  Using Hitler, I was taught, is wrong to lump him with evolution.  Hitler wasn't an atheist.  He was some kind of Pagan/New Age/Catholic Cult who tried to change religion into his own ideals.  Besides there's that thing that when one starts comparing others to Nazis or Hitler, they automatically lose.

Thank you. Most people of your ilk say that Hitler was an atheist.

So, since you brought them up, can you tell me why Stalin had Darwinists thrown in jail, and what evidence you have for Mao's support of Darwinism?

Do you personally think Christians who believe in Evolution are going to hell?

   
Quote
I stated previously about the amount of money given to do dogmatic Evolutionary Science.  Why don't we try giving ARN or DI 20 years and lots of taxpayer money to come up with something in 20 years?

Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?


There are plenty of private institutions with millions of dollars who are very sympathic to Creationism. The Templeton Institute was offering grants to do ID work for years. And yet, no ID research gets done. No creationist research gets done. The main ID journal in existence has published no issues in close to 3 years. Why no results? Why are no private funding sources stepping up to the plate?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:34   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:21)
What would you take as evidence?

Emperical data, facts. Like with all forms of science, so where are they when it's about ID or Creationism?
 
Quote
So what would you people take?  Things such as Dembski's Design Filter can be used, although it may need to be perfected.  Is that a problem?  Why is Evolution allowed to change stripes, "Punctuated Equilibrium", no wait, "Gradualism", oh that don't work, back to "Uniformism"?  It seems as those ID Theories, some of which may be still being built upon, doesn't get the same respect.

Evolution is allowed to "change stripes" because that's the way science works. Science keeps correcting itself, that's the power of science. If something is wrong, it will change.
O and by the way, Dembski's "Design filter" or commonly known as the Explanatory Filter (if that's not the one you mean, correct me) if utterly useless. To save me a lot of typing, read this nice little article from our own Wesley Elsberry: http://www.talkreason.org/articles/eandsdembski.pdf
 
Quote
Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?

Money can be spend on science. So either start conducting it, or stop moaning. And you sir, are only talking about (bad?) theology, and not science.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2767
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:34   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

I have a suggestion, lcd.  As you appear to have nothing we haven't seen before, and your cartoonish misunderstandings of evolution can better be dealt with elsewhere (talkorigins, for example), why not find a site where some of these "millions of people who THINK they are Christian" hang out, and show them the error of their ways?  I'm sure there will be great excitement when they find the one true arbiter of real Christianity in their midst.  They'll be lining up to thank you.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:35   

Quote
For other Christians, I offer up only what I read in the Bible.

I don't judge them so I won't say what happens to them.  That is up to God.


You say that Christians who believe in Evolution aren't real Christians, and yet you also claim you don't judge them?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:36   

Quote (dogdidit @ July 01 2008,13:27)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

I think RtH gets credit here for calling "no true Scotsman". Out of curiosity, what was the pot up to?

Well, if it looks like a flower, smells like a flower and attracts bees, if would be a difficult if not impossible thing to call it a duck, right?

But I think I am a real Christian so I guess I put myself in that boat.  Then again so do many others.  The real test is when those who claim actually do what is needed.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:41   



--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:41   

Quote (Assassinator @ July 01 2008,13:34)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:21)
What would you take as evidence?

Emperical data, facts. Like with all forms of science, so where are they when it's about ID or Creationism?
 
Quote
So what would you people take?  Things such as Dembski's Design Filter can be used, although it may need to be perfected.  Is that a problem?  Why is Evolution allowed to change stripes, "Punctuated Equilibrium", no wait, "Gradualism", oh that don't work, back to "Uniformism"?  It seems as those ID Theories, some of which may be still being built upon, doesn't get the same respect.

Evolution is allowed to "change stripes" because that's the way science works. Science keeps correcting itself, that's the power of science. If something is wrong, it will change.
O and by the way, Dembski's "Design filter" or commonly known as the Explanatory Filter (if that's not the one you mean, correct me) if utterly useless. To save me a lot of typing, read this nice little article from our own Wesley Elsberry: http://www.talkreason.org/articles/eandsdembski.pdf
 
Quote
Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?

Money can be spend on science. So either start conducting it, or stop moaning. And you sir, are only talking about (bad?) theology, and not science.

So "science can change stripes as that what science does it's self correcting".

Yet when Creationism goes to show that it is a science, witness ID, it's "snake oil", "lies" and worse.

Let me see if I can get this straight.  What you and your heroes do is wholesome, self-correcting and right.

What ID scientists do is lie, cover up and take money from unsuspecting dupes like myself.  What that makes me, in your opinion then is a sucker.

Do I smell a hypocrite here?

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:47   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:41)
Yet when Creationism goes to show that it is a science, witness ID, it's "snake oil", "lies" and worse.

But, uh, Creationism hasn't 'shown it is a science', is the problem.

Again, Behe, who is one of the few sciency types ID can point to, has conceded common descent. I'll bet you reject common descent. So, do you reject Behe's contributions to ID? If not, why not?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:48   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

Real Christians follow God's Word and believe it as such.  If you're going to say, "Well lot's of Christians feel that Evolution and the Bible can both exist", obviously aren't.

I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?


Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:30)
For other Christians, I offer up only what I read in the Bible.

I don't judge them so I won't say what happens to them.  That is up to God.

As far as Kosher, I am not a full on vegetarian, I eat fish though no shell fish, shrimp, etc., and I'm lactose intolerant.  So no "meat with milk" for me.  So yes, I think I do.

Trust me we've had many "open and intense discussions" at church about following God's Laws.


Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:41)
Do I smell a hypocrite here?


Well I certainly do.

Anyone else?

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:49   



--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:49   

Quote

what evidence you have for Mao's support of Darwinism?


That ought to be interesting, since in 1958 Mao presided over China, and China adopted Comrade Academician Trofim D. Lysenko's ideas about agriculture wholesale. China had been having grain surpluses when using agriculture informed by the evolutionary science of the West; once Lysenko's policies were followed in China, they had grain shortfalls such that between 20 and 40 million people died in the resulting famine.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:50   

The addition of the blatant hypocrisy is getting it a little closer to realistic, though.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:51   

Quote (JohnW @ July 01 2008,13:34)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

I have a suggestion, lcd.  As you appear to have nothing we haven't seen before, and your cartoonish misunderstandings of evolution can better be dealt with elsewhere (talkorigins, for example), why not find a site where some of these "millions of people who THINK they are Christian" hang out, and show them the error of their ways?  I'm sure there will be great excitement when they find the one true arbiter of real Christianity in their midst.  They'll be lining up to thank you.

Well JW,


It seems that you and your friends are trotting out the same "ill-thought and oft-quoted" tired explanations of circular logic yourself.  Yet you have the gall to call me on it.

Wow.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:51   

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,13:48)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

Real Christians follow God's Word and believe it as such.  If you're going to say, "Well lot's of Christians feel that Evolution and the Bible can both exist", obviously aren't.

I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?


 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:30)
For other Christians, I offer up only what I read in the Bible.

I don't judge them so I won't say what happens to them.  That is up to God.

As far as Kosher, I am not a full on vegetarian, I eat fish though no shell fish, shrimp, etc., and I'm lactose intolerant.  So no "meat with milk" for me.  So yes, I think I do.

Trust me we've had many "open and intense discussions" at church about following God's Laws.


 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:41)
Do I smell a hypocrite here?


Well I certainly do.

Anyone else?

Funny you can as most people can't smell what's under their own nose.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:52   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ July 01 2008,13:49)

Glad to see you're coming to terms with what you've been spraying across the internet for what, years now?

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:54   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 01 2008,13:49)
Quote

what evidence you have for Mao's support of Darwinism?


That ought to be interesting, since in 1958 Mao presided over China, and China adopted Comrade Academician Trofim D. Lysenko's ideas about agriculture wholesale. China had been having grain surpluses when using agriculture informed by the evolutionary science of the West; once Lysenko's policies were followed in China, they had grain shortfalls such that between 20 and 40 million people died in the resulting famine.

Obviously Mao was doing the best he could for Darwinian Science which was "cull the weak".

  
Sealawr



Posts: 54
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:56   

Pardon me for being direct.  I don't post often, but I am amused when scientifically, philsophically and theologically untrained persons opine on science philosophy and theology all at once.  These people often hit the tridefecta, so to speak.

So, assuming this is a genuine question--

   
Quote
What would you take as evidence?  


An answer to the following question previously asked of you would be a good start.

   
Quote
Pick a single thing. Anything. It's up to you.

Show us

a) What ID or creationism predicts regarding that.
b) What "evolution" predicts regarding that.

And then show us why the answer is more accurate for A then B.

For example.

A global flood.

Creationism predicts that fossils will be found all mixed together due to the flood waters being chaotic, but with filtering by size (smallest to largest) when they settled and fossilized.

Evolution predicts that fossils will be found in chronological order, not size order.


How say you?

--------------
DS: "The explantory filter is as robust as the data that is used with it."
David Klinghoffer: ""I'm an IDiot"

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:56   

The attitude and evasion of actual science questions is getting a little more toward the accurate portrayal as well.

Keep working on it, we'll send you off a-trolling when you're a little more ready.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:57   

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,13:50)
The addition of the blatant hypocrisy is getting it a little closer to realistic, though.

Yes, this is what we were told exactly what would happen if one were to engage with Evolutionists.

You have faith in Evolution.

I have faith in God.

You say the same things over and over, until such time it's been shown to be a lie then you quickly change your tune like nothing ever happened.

ID has changed over the years to show the science behind God's Word and in His Word.

Yet I'm the hypocrite?  Wow.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:58   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:57)
Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,13:50)
The addition of the blatant hypocrisy is getting it a little closer to realistic, though.

Yes, this is what we were told exactly what would happen if one were to engage with Evolutionists.

You have faith in Evolution.

I have faith in God.

You say the same things over and over, until such time it's been shown to be a lie then you quickly change your tune like nothing ever happened.

ID has changed over the years to show the science behind God's Word and in His Word.

Yet I'm the hypocrite?  Wow.

Better.  You're getting there.

I still think you should throw in some Nazis though.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,13:58   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:54)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 01 2008,13:49)
Quote

what evidence you have for Mao's support of Darwinism?


That ought to be interesting, since in 1958 Mao presided over China, and China adopted Comrade Academician Trofim D. Lysenko's ideas about agriculture wholesale. China had been having grain surpluses when using agriculture informed by the evolutionary science of the West; once Lysenko's policies were followed in China, they had grain shortfalls such that between 20 and 40 million people died in the resulting famine.

Obviously Mao was doing the best he could for Darwinian Science which was "cull the weak".

Mao's rejection of evolutionary science is evidence of his acceptance of evolutionary science? Cool.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JohnW



Posts: 2767
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:01   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:51)
Quote (JohnW @ July 01 2008,13:34)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

I have a suggestion, lcd.  As you appear to have nothing we haven't seen before, and your cartoonish misunderstandings of evolution can better be dealt with elsewhere (talkorigins, for example), why not find a site where some of these "millions of people who THINK they are Christian" hang out, and show them the error of their ways?  I'm sure there will be great excitement when they find the one true arbiter of real Christianity in their midst.  They'll be lining up to thank you.

Well JW,


It seems that you and your friends are trotting out the same "ill-thought and oft-quoted" tired explanations of circular logic yourself.  Yet you have the gall to call me on it.

Wow.

If it's an "explanation of circular logic" you're looking for, here's one.  You might also want to do a google search for remedial English classes.

Once you've learned how to translate what you want to say into strings of words, feel free to try again.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:03   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:03)
To all, especially oldmanintheskydidntdoit


What would you take as evidence?  I can hear all of you now, "Another ID dodge".  This is not the case.  More than a few other Creationists and IDists may have tried, it seems too many times they get ridiculed or shouted down.

So what would you people take?  Things such as Dembski's Design Filter can be used, although it may need to be perfected.  Is that a problem?  Why is Evolution allowed to change stripes, "Punctuated Equilibrium", no wait, "Gradualism", oh that don't work, back to "Uniformism"?  It seems as those ID Theories, some of which may be still being built upon, doesn't get the same respect.

When it comes to Information contained in DNA, it is obvious it exists.  Without that Information, there would be no inherited traits.  A Palm Tree in such a situation can produce seeds that grow an Elm.  Without information in DNA, Monkeys could really give birth to humans and an E. Coli can divide and instead of two E Coli cells, you have an embryonic cat on one side and a dog on the other.

So from that we know there is information contained in the DNA.

Information, can and does get lost.  A strand of DNA doesn't replicate correctly and the sites in the genes that tells a cell to stop dividing gets lost.  So now you have a cancer cell.  The loss of that information prevents it from no longer being able to stop multiplying.  Loss of info must be a bad thing.

So how does one measure the information in DNA?  Good question and  I don't rightly know.  I guess it would take time and money.  From the other thread, one scientist was given 20 years to try and change E. Coli into something else.  All he was able to do was change what they eat.  Is that a change or loss of information?  I'd say loss as it seems to state that the "new strain" of E. Coli doesn't do as well when there's both forms of nutrition for all the E. Coli to consume.

I stated previously about the amount of money given to do dogmatic Evolutionary Science.  Why don't we try giving ARN or DI 20 years and lots of taxpayer money to come up with something in 20 years?

Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?

Before discussing evidence for creation/ID, one must formulate a hypothesis. You provided none.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:11   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:51)
Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,13:48)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

Real Christians follow God's Word and believe it as such.  If you're going to say, "Well lot's of Christians feel that Evolution and the Bible can both exist", obviously aren't.

I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?


 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:30)
For other Christians, I offer up only what I read in the Bible.

I don't judge them so I won't say what happens to them.  That is up to God.

As far as Kosher, I am not a full on vegetarian, I eat fish though no shell fish, shrimp, etc., and I'm lactose intolerant.  So no "meat with milk" for me.  So yes, I think I do.

Trust me we've had many "open and intense discussions" at church about following God's Laws.


 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:41)
Do I smell a hypocrite here?


Well I certainly do.

Anyone else?

Funny you can as most people can't smell what's under their own nose.

For the record, "I know you are, but what am I?" usually quits working after 5th grade.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:15   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,14:11)
For the record, "I know you are, but what am I?" usually quits working after 5th grade.

Well Arden, what's to say.

You may not think you guys are doing not just the exact thing but claiming I'm the only one who is doing it is wrong.

The reason why you guys seem to be getting away with it is that there are far more of you then there are of just me.

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:15   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:41)
Quote (Assassinator @ July 01 2008,13:34)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:21)
What would you take as evidence?

Emperical data, facts. Like with all forms of science, so where are they when it's about ID or Creationism?
   
Quote
So what would you people take?  Things such as Dembski's Design Filter can be used, although it may need to be perfected.  Is that a problem?  Why is Evolution allowed to change stripes, "Punctuated Equilibrium", no wait, "Gradualism", oh that don't work, back to "Uniformism"?  It seems as those ID Theories, some of which may be still being built upon, doesn't get the same respect.

Evolution is allowed to "change stripes" because that's the way science works. Science keeps correcting itself, that's the power of science. If something is wrong, it will change.
O and by the way, Dembski's "Design filter" or commonly known as the Explanatory Filter (if that's not the one you mean, correct me) if utterly useless. To save me a lot of typing, read this nice little article from our own Wesley Elsberry: http://www.talkreason.org/articles/eandsdembski.pdf
   
Quote
Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?

Money can be spend on science. So either start conducting it, or stop moaning. And you sir, are only talking about (bad?) theology, and not science.

So "science can change stripes as that what science does it's self correcting".

Yet when Creationism goes to show that it is a science, witness ID, it's "snake oil", "lies" and worse.

Let me see if I can get this straight.  What you and your heroes do is wholesome, self-correcting and right.

What ID scientists do is lie, cover up and take money from unsuspecting dupes like myself.  What that makes me, in your opinion then is a sucker.

Do I smell a hypocrite here?

The problem is, like what's sad before, that Creationism ánd ID have not shown they're science.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:16   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:54)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 01 2008,13:49)
Quote

what evidence you have for Mao's support of Darwinism?


That ought to be interesting, since in 1958 Mao presided over China, and China adopted Comrade Academician Trofim D. Lysenko's ideas about agriculture wholesale. China had been having grain surpluses when using agriculture informed by the evolutionary science of the West; once Lysenko's policies were followed in China, they had grain shortfalls such that between 20 and 40 million people died in the resulting famine.

Obviously Mao was doing the best he could for Darwinian Science which was "cull the weak".

So anyone who kills lots of people is a 'Darwinist'?

Sure you wanna go with that answer?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:18   

Quote (JohnW @ July 01 2008,14:01)
If it's an "explanation of circular logic" you're looking for, here's one.  You might also want to do a google search for remedial English classes.

Once you've learned how to translate what you want to say into strings of words, feel free to try again.

Heh JW, love your sense of humor.

I think you need to complete your courses before you go and offer them up to others though.

Just a thought, I know it's hard for you to do but I bet if you try hard enough, one might actually slip in there despite your best efforts to go through life "blinded by (your idea of) science"!

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:18   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,12:15)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,14:11)
For the record, "I know you are, but what am I?" usually quits working after 5th grade.

Well Arden, what's to say.

You may not think you guys are doing not just the exact thing but claiming I'm the only one who is doing it is wrong.

The reason why you guys seem to be getting away with it is that there are far more of you then there are of just me.

Persecution claims. Check.

If your logic made any sense, you'd be able to answer questions all by your lonesome. It isn't happening.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:20   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,14:16)
So anyone who kills lots of people is a 'Darwinist'?

Sure you wanna go with that answer?

Of course not as that would be a blanket statement and ill -advised.  But in Mao's case, his following of some "Scientific Principles" I think it fits.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:22   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,14:18)
Persecution claims. Check.

If your logic made any sense, you'd be able to answer questions all by your lonesome. It isn't happening.

If you guys would listen, I just might.  As I am fending off so many of you and the questions are coming fast and furious, and smack me down if I don't answer someone's question or one they want to see answered quickly, I may not be able to get to them all.

But I must be going for a while.  Got to get back to the job site.

From now on, I'll only answer those who are at least trying some civility.  It will help me maintain my composure.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:27   

So, LCD, to recap.

You've admitted Hitler wasn't an atheist.

You've failed to explain why Stalin imprisoned Darwinists.

You've failed to demonstrate that Mao was a Darwinist.

So, uh, WTF was your original point about Darwinist atheist dictators killing millions of people?

Incidentally, as for your notion that Christians can't be murderous dictators, in addition to Germany, you might try googling 'Congo Free State'

 
Quote
Of course not as that would be a blanket statement and ill -advised.  But in Mao's case, his following of some "Scientific Principles" I think it fits.


Sure looks like what you're saying there.

So, to repeat what Wes said: Mao killing Darwinists proves he was a Darwinist?

Um, there's a reason the government doesn't give money to Creationists to do 'research'.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:27   



Hey, mister? Are you hungry? I got a Baby Ruth

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:33   

Dude just pick ONE question, everybody will follow along.

But *hint* make it a sciency one. Who gives a rat's ass about Mao? (sorry Arden) You got a bunch a science types here (plus chatty kibbitzers like yours truly). Ask a SCIENCE question. Like maybe one about *stares at ceiling for a minute* oh, I dunno, EVOLUTION maybe??

Or crap, okay, atheistic killer Darwinistictators.

Or the part where Darwin himself advocated "culling the weak". That was...in which of his works does that appear, again?

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,14:37   

Quote (dogdidit @ July 01 2008,12:33)
Dude just pick ONE question, everybody will follow along.

But *hint* make it a sciency one. Who gives a rat's ass about Mao? (sorry Arden) You got a bunch a science types here (plus chatty kibbitzers like yours truly). Ask a SCIENCE question. Like maybe one about *stares at ceiling for a minute* oh, I dunno, EVOLUTION maybe??

Or crap, okay, atheistic killer Darwinistictators.

Or the part where Darwin himself advocated "culling the weak". That was...in which of his works does that appear, again?

I'd be happy just to hear about why we don't have 'dats'.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus