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| Date: 2006/09/11 23:44:39, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
The real expert on Newton's alchemy is Bill Newman, at Indiana University. Together with Larry Principe (Johns Hopkins), he's recreated several of Newton's alchemical experiments - showing that Newton (as well as other alchemists) was not crazy when he wrote his alchemical notebooks. He was describing, in cryptic but intelligible language, what he saw in the laboratory. When the key is broken, Newton's strange language turns out to be very accurately descriptive (the "net of Vulcan," as described on the website below; or the "virgin's milk" which I heard Bill discuss in a paper - it is a colloidal suspension). Of course, he did not always interpret what he saw in the way that we would.... See his website, complete with a photograph of what was often thought to be pure Newtonian fantasy - the "star regulus of antimony." |
| Date: 2006/09/15 03:22:06, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Dennis's rant about the woeful standards of secondary education is slightly undercut by her inability to spell:
By the way, snarkiness aside, can you follow her rather surprising reasoning in the rest of this post? She seems to be saying that, despite the fact that "Darwinism’s a dead duck" promoted by the Evil Atheist Conspiracy, students' parents should not be trying to introduce criticism of it into schools, lest it further undermine the respect the little punks have for their teachers. Do I have that right? |
| Date: 2006/09/15 10:27:47, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Fortunately, I had recalibrated my trusty irony meter just before reading this post by Dennis:
There really is nothing to say to this. By the way, I've been a long time lurker here. Recently, however, I've been finding the level of disingenuity, stupidity and sheer wickedness at Uncommon Descent impossible to take without an opportunity to vent about it. My wife has grown tired of hearing me, so I'm posting here now. Putting it like that, it does make me wonder why I can't just stop visiting such a wretched intellectual train-wreck in the first place... |
| Date: 2006/09/18 07:10:29, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
| Dozens of Deceitful Deity-Detectors Drone Dopily |
| Date: 2006/09/19 12:08:21, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
The most pathetic thing I've read is the "Statement of Design Theory" available on tote-bags and throw-pillows from the official UD Cafepress Store. Below the standard, ID depiction of the E. coli flagellum (they don't seem to understand that a diagram is different from a photograph) is the caption: "If it looks designed, maybe it is." At least it's honest; as Gil Dodgen's posts make clear, that pretty much sums up the totality of their "theory." That image appeared in the UD sidebar, I think shortly after Dover. (And, by the way, isn't that how all rejected scientific theories come to be accepted by the establishment? Remember the story of Galileo and his heliocentric beer stein? And who could ever forget the drama of Wegener and his continental drift hoodie?) When I first saw it, I thought it was a brilliant piece of culture jamming - a devastating parody of ID hacked into the UD website. But it stayed there, so I guess they were proud of it. Anyway, it finally disappeared some time today, perhaps as part of the Google-scrubbing image clean-up they've been engaged in. |
| Date: 2006/09/21 00:19:16, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
|
This really upsets me. However much fun it is to laugh at the 'tards over at UD, things like this remind us of what is at stake. A middle-school video exploring the ID debate. What do we learn: 1: These 8th graders have a science teacher who is in favor of ID, and is one of the "expert witnesses" who tells them that science is stalled, at a dead end, and needs ID to proceed any further. (Granted, though, that they have another teacher who says ID belongs in church). 2: The virus of "balance" is everywhere - picked up from our pathetic news media, and no doubt instilled into them by their journalism teacher: for every statement in favor of evolution, there has to be another in favor of ID, with no attempt to assess how much veracity to attach to the claims. It's telling that, somewhere in the video, they ask whether "Evolution and Intelligent Design should both be taught at school, or neither?" - it would be unfair, clearly, to consider just the one that is science. 3: Indiana State Representative Peggy Welch is an evil 'tard. All this cr#p about students needing to be "given all the information" so that they can make up their own minds. Why do I think that she wouldn't be so keen on their being given all the information about, say, contraception. And while we're letting them hear all sides of every story, let's give them a hefty dose of Voltaire, Hume and H. L. Mencken, to provide them with means to question what they're exposed to in church every Sunday and to make up their own minds on the God thing - surely she'd be in favor of that too? 4: The "Christian Minister" who is one of their witnesses for ID states that he is "more comfortable" with the conclusions ID reaches. Because the universe cares about his comfort, I guess. 5: 50-something percent of 8th-graders believe in ID, 20-something in evolution. That's the kind of statistic that gets UDers very excited - "look how we're making inroads into the schools, despite Darwino-fascist opposition!". But all it shows is that sheer ignorance and lousy teaching (see point 1 above) is the natural matrix of ID. The only hopeful thing here is the interview with the 8th-grader who made the piece. She said that she and her collaborators are all Christians and went into the project convinced that ID should be taught in the schools. Now that they've listened to all the arguments, they're no longer certain, and are at best neutral on the issue. That's a start, at least.... The comment thread at UD is just packed with tarditude. This is my favorite, from idnet.com.au (who, I think, is not just one of the stupidest regulars, but also one of the plain nastiest - is there a category in the Awards for "Biggest ###hole at UD"?):
|
| Date: 2006/09/23 04:02:10, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
In this thread Carlos bears the burden of rational thought and the entire Enlightenment project. It seems that the UD administration are beginning to tire of his commonsense naturalism, however:
to which Carlos replies:
Somehow, I don't think he's long for UD (again). |
| Date: 2006/09/23 09:38:16, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
The funny thing is that he, along with Tom English, is not just tolerated but even admired by the inmates of UD. Just the other day BarryA ejaculated that he had come to "love" Carlos. And this is despite the fact that both Carlos and Tom consistently make the rest look like idiots, simply by being educated and able to carry an argument. Clearly there is some dissent in the ranks, and Scott has discovered (or been taught by dt) how to use the bold tags. Still, I think they're kept there because it makes most of the posters, and perhaps even Dembski himself, feel that they're getting some attention from grown-ups. |
| Date: 2006/09/27 10:43:18, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
I tried to make my first ever post today to UD - it would have been the first post on the "Jonathon Wells uncovers the secret atheist conspiracy" thread. It never appeared, nor did the polite request about its whereabouts I made an hour or so ago. It was not nearly as scathing as Carl Sachs' recent posts - and not nearly as funny either, so it's no great loss - I just don't get their moderation policy at all. Honestly, I think that the reason Carl's posts keep getting through is that they really can't understand the notion of irony. |
| Date: 2006/09/27 20:13:20, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
A good friend of mine - who, for obvious reasons, wishes to remain anonymous - has informed me that the ACLU did it. |
| Date: 2006/09/29 10:35:53, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
You notice that "this guy" is, in fact, Gil Dodgen, of "to make a computer simulation of an earthquake you need to shake the monitor a lot" fame. God on a stick, I had no idea that he was actually a "software engineer." |
| Date: 2006/10/01 10:48:56, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Dennis the Dense, in her report from the cutting edge of ID, trying out a new meme (my emphasis):
Does everyone get the message that there's, like, this other rilly cool new website where the kids hang out, with, like, overwhelming evidence you can, like, look at. Or at least you will be able to see the, like, evidence soon - we seem to have misplaced it for the moment; but it will sure be, like, overwhelming. Rilly |
| Date: 2006/10/01 19:34:00, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
How about OverwhelmingIckiness? |
| Date: 2006/10/11 04:29:25, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Which means, I guess, that Dembski is Zoot Horn Rollo, and O'Leary is the Mascara Snake (or vice versa). DaveScot? - Drumbo, of course. No one is cool enough to be the Captain (who, by the way, is holding an UD patented CSI-detecting schnozzle). |
| Date: 2006/10/11 21:13:15, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
This request from WAD to update the look and feel of UD is very odd - quite apart from the "I want to look as good as Richard Dawkins" hubristic schtik. After all, they just finished overhauling the whole site. And by "they," I mean DaveScot. Doesn't this seem to be a deliberate insult to their resident computer genius? Perhaps the revelation here that DaveScot is the real star of UD begins to needle a little... |
| Date: 2006/10/15 04:08:10, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
From the same "groupthink" thread:
Must. Stop. Reading. UD. It. Hurts. |
| Date: 2006/10/16 09:11:15, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
D#mn your eyes, if I do it's because the theists drove me to it! |
| Date: 2006/10/17 02:18:49, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
From this thread by Sal Cordova:
Compare with this joke:
Cordova peddles this "I'm a freethinking, moderate kind of guy" cr#p, priding himself for being undogmatic about the age of the earth, when all around him people are pushing others off bridges. He just doesn't seem to get it that the universe doesn't give a sh#t what he, the Westminster Presbytery or the Grand Mufti of Timbuctoo thinks about this subject. There is a matter of fact at stake here, for which there are well-defined methods of investigation. This whole "big tent" bullsh#t in this post - how can you be intellectually "friendly" towards and "applaud" those who hold positions irreconcilable with yours on the very issue under "investigation"? It would be like a math department keeping some guy in the attic who strongly believes that 2+2=5, because, after all, we're all in this together, right, and who are we to judge? As much fun as it can be, sometimes the sheer stupidity and cluelessness over there brings me to something very like despair. It's not that I can't abide stupid people - some of my best friends are stupid, after all. It's their smug ingratitude as they toss 400 years of scientific investigation and progress into the garbage can. |
| Date: 2006/10/17 05:16:01, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Cute! I've just ordered my wife Black Death and Syphilis for Christmas! (er, she's a historian of medieval Europe, OK?). Thanks for the link. |
| Date: 2006/10/17 06:17:21, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
Whoops, I had a feeling that might end up on the Bathroom Wall... I hasten to add that I don't really want anyone to get cancer. Not even Sal. Though I would like him to be bitten by a snake. My point was, of course, that the same people who reject hard-won human knowledge still wish to enjoy its fruits - whether in computers, or medicine. Come to think of it, I guess that is why UD has been repeating a new meme recently - that no biological research has ever made use of the theory of evolution. They can have their cake and p#ss on it too... |
| Date: 2006/10/17 08:27:57, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
One of the many things I've come to love about our tardly friends is their sheer chutzpah in redefining common words. You take some retired engineers, lawyers, technical writers and second- or third-rate mathematicians, and by a wave of the magic wand they become "scientists." I say we pay them back in the same kind. How does this sound: "Today, Christianity suffocates under a stifling orthodoxy, which insists that God exists. However, many leading Christians, such as Richard Dawkins, have bravely asserted the contrary - that there is no God. There is, in fact, a longstanding, though overlooked tradition within Christianity of atheism. Other famously devout Christians in history like Epicurus, Bertrand Russell and H. L. Mencken (and, most recently, the presiding Lutheran bishop PZ Myers) have argued for the absence of a deity - yet still Christianity denies the voice within." |
| Date: 2006/10/17 10:57:49, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Sal, again
Ah yes, the old problem of "pushing" the theory. "Coordinating the dissemination of information." How did Einstein manage it before the DVD player was invented? But of course, Sal keeps reminding us that the super thing about ID is that it has no theological content! It stands or fall on its own, scientific merits!! And, I guess, he just wants those kids to be "pushed" to use their reason!!! Whaddaguy!!!! |
| Date: 2006/10/17 21:05:00, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
And it surely cannot be a coincidence that Taner Edis - the editor of the book on the masthead above - is an anagram of "I seen tard". |
| Date: 2006/10/17 21:25:32, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
I think you mean this book, Bones, Rocks and Stars by Chris Turney. I haven't read it, but it's been on my reading list since PZM recommended it. |
| Date: 2006/10/20 05:27:38, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
We've been through this before. Fish don't have fingers. Anything which looks like it might be a fish with, er, fingers is actually a "mosaic," not an transitional form. Same with breadcrumbs. Why do such things exist at all? If I answered that, I would be commenting on the nature and intentions of the deit.., er, Intelligent Designer. And that wouldn't be science. See? |
| Date: 2006/10/20 06:28:47, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Interesting... The way I've always heard it is: I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's son, and I'll keep on plucking pheasants 'till the pheasant plucker comes. (It's not just hard to say, it's almost impossible to type.) I recall that there was some joky English folk-song with those words in the chorus. Anyone remember that? Where were we? |
| Date: 2006/10/20 10:10:53, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
| Oh, come on, hereoisreal is just one of you guys f#cking with us. Really. I'm onto my third glass of rare Sicilian blueberry amaro and this still doesn't make any f#cking sense. |
| Date: 2006/10/20 10:18:49, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Has Lou FCD ever been seen in the same room as him? |
| Date: 2006/10/22 21:22:47, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
Yeah, look at this. There is something a bit "cosmic, man" about the whole thing, but he's thoroughly dismissive of supernaturalism -- and quite unmistakably on the sane side of things. I suspect that something interesting may be about to happen:
|
| Date: 2006/10/22 21:26:35, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
| Oh, and then there's this bitch-slapping of Gil Dodgen that folks here may enjoy! |
| Date: 2006/10/23 11:52:17, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
From their God is the only thing stopping me from raping my grandmother thread:
heh heh heh |
| Date: 2006/10/24 11:06:38, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
From Sal the Wonder Dog's post on Richard Smalley, quoting Hugh Ross's eulogy.
"By the way, they do." Would it be at all churlish to ask for, like, some details? Because that would be quite interesting. After all, the problem of reconciling free will and divine foreknowledge has plagued Christian theology since, well, the beginning - and you claim to have some equations to resolve it for good. You'll have theologians and physicists lined up around the block, Nobel prizes, cover of Time magazine - surely it's worth expanding on it a little more than "By the way, they do"! Honestly, UD seems to have hit rock-bottom. They hardly bother even pretending not to be creationists there any more. One of the comments to this thread:
Because our science is an awesome science. |
| Date: 2006/10/25 23:57:48, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
|
OK, so Dimbski posts a transcript from a book signing with Dawkins, which he purports to be shocked at. Dawkins, in effect, says that, yes, in a sense if we follow through the logic of determinism, we would have to blame atoms for the the terrible things people do. BUT, he acknowledges that we feel like we are free, that he doesn't have a philosophical solution to this problem, and it's a contradiction, a grey area, that he just has to live with. Dimbo smirks when Dawkins says this has nothing to do with his views on religion - implying (WD, that is) that it has everything to do with religion, though in his mealy-mouthed way he won't commit to saying it on UD. The UD footsoldiers, following their Dear Leader's cue, jump all over Dawkins - if only he believed in God, he wouldn't need to live with this contradiction any more! Yet one more proof that materialism is wrong!! At which point, JaredL jumps in with a few very astute posts, pointing out politely that theists seem to be no better off than materialists. If God creates everything, he must also be responsible for Dawkins and the God Delusion; and arguing that there is free will gets you nowhere if you also believe God is omniscient. The conclusion:
The UnDead reply politely -- as they usually do to anyone with some intelligence who visits them -- but mostly cluelessly, simply repeating again and again that there is free will, or merely asserting that there is no contradiction, or observing that it sure feels like we have free will (which no one, even Dawkins, denies). Some do attempt to make reasoned responses, however, and it's beginning actually to look like that rarest of things: an interesting discussion on UD which actually might produce some productive philosophical argument and change some minds. Eventually, you guessed it, the WAD makes the only intellectual contribution he's ever made to any thread at UD:
Pathetic. I agree, it's time to leave them to their own irrelevance. |
| Date: 2006/10/28 20:47:50, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
|
This is the second time in as many days that Dense-O has mentioned her forthcoming contribution to neuroscience:
We ought to start a sweepstake on just how much this book will suck. I put my money on "as much as a Dyson DC07" (the vacuum that doesn't lose suction). |
| Date: 2006/10/29 11:47:33, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
DT starts begging the grownups to come back to UD:
|
| Date: 2006/11/02 09:32:19, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Unfair. It's the same old ID nonsense, reformatted with Pagemaker. It's really quite something - they make it look exactly like a textbook, without it actually containing anything worth knowing. What really astonishes me is this. They whine and whine that the nasty evolutionists miscategorize them as creationists. They insist that they accept the data of modern science, but reject its "materialistic interpretation." In particular, they claim (at least, when it suits them) to accept the fact (though not the means) of evolution and common descent. It's just that they see the change through time as being an act of And so, how do the leading lights of ID begin their shiny new textbook on their "theory"? With a chapter rehashing boiler-plate creationist canards questioning common descent. The same thing goes for Tiktaalik last year. If I were a I could just about take them seriously if they were genuinely engaged with new scientific discoveries - even if their interpretation of those discoveries were wrong. But it's their lack of excitement at the expansion of knowledge, their palpable fear of change that reveals their true, contemptible colors. |
| Date: 2006/11/02 12:31:16, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
From their moronic, DaveTard initiated (natch) thread on how how global warming is a big hoax, cooked up by scientists greedy for grant money, todd writes:
Yep, there's that old "is" versus "ought" confusion. You'd think it was simple enough, but they seem to miss it again and again. Let's try one more time.... The fact that a law of nature exists (i.e, says that some state of affairs is the case in the universe) does not constrain me morally to act in any particular way (though there may, of course, be physical constraints upon me). Newton tells me that babies will accelerate at 32 ft s^{-2} in the Earth's gravitational field, but that doesn't mean I am constrained, or motivated in any way to drop them off the Sears Tower. To do so would be morally repugnant; but, at the same time, I can't deny that they will actually fall in just that way. |
| Date: 2006/11/05 09:23:44, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
| It's a frightening thought, but there's probably a whole lot of people out there who actually are impressed by UD - presumably most of the regular posters at least. We look at UD and see a scene from the Marat-Sade; they look at it and think, "Gee, I wish I could get me a website that good; if only I could be as smart as William Dembski." Seems that this guy is one of them. |
| Date: 2006/11/05 09:38:10, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
It seems to me that there is still plenty of "play" left in ID - in that there seems to be no shortage of dimwitted Republicans to support it vocally or even get it into their state party's platform. After Dover, though, it's mostly just empty rhetoric, to fluff the flagging base. Quite separate from that is UD, which, as you say, is busy committing prolonged (and unbearably fascinating) suicide. I doubt whether even one of the Republican supporters of ID has ever looked at it. Nor do I remember any mention of it even in the Dover decision. It would be a good idea, I think, to compile a "greatest hits" of UD over the last year or so: all the idiocy and cluelessness, all the venom and, above all else, all the naked religiosity. Before it gets disappeared. A pamphlet which presented the true face of ID would be a great weapon against "let's just teach the controversy," "There is nothing religious about ID; it is a scientific theory, supported by the scientific arguments of, er, scientists doing science" crap. |
| Date: 2006/11/05 20:19:45, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
I especially like the way they're subtly rewriting the history of science. For a long time, the IDers were advertising themselves as the next great paradigm change (and O'Tardly still is, in her recent channelling of Thomas Kuhn). Now, however, we're in a post-revolutionary period, it seems, when (apart from a few holdouts) science has already gone through its paradigm change, and has embraced "Design Theory" (or "Disembodied Telic Entityism," or whatever it's called) as its working heuristic. Witness Gil Dodgen (in comment 18):
Now that's good tard! My favorite comment from the whole thread, though, is this little gem from the profoundly challenged Mats:
Excuse me, I have to go and sacrifice a goat to Dobzhansky. |
| Date: 2006/11/05 20:58:56, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Funny, I've always imagined that in ID: The Movie, the middle-aged Glenda Jackson would play William Dembski. |
| Date: 2006/11/06 00:30:03, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Before you read this, remind yourself just one more time that ID theory is itself supposed to be a scientific field:
Amen to that, brother |
| Date: 2006/11/07 07:55:11, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
I think that's precisely what Sal has in mind, as this later comment states quite explicitly:
|
| Date: 2006/11/10 04:51:16, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
Hey, hey, hey, where did all the comments go? Last time I looked, JAD was snapping at the Darwimps, and one or two IDers themselves were beginning to think that it was a bit unseemly. Then, *poof*. Did something FUNNY happen? Did anyone get it and write it down? By the way, any theories why DT suddenly decided to post JAD's opera omnia - and has been all respectful and lovey recently to his former most-hated? I seem to be seeing more and more use of "front-loading" among UT commentators, and referencing JAD's articles more than Behe or Dembski himself. Perhaps they just think that this is real science... |
| Date: 2006/11/13 03:01:51, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
Wow. That's extraordinarily bad. Not just your average, stupid fundie bad, but smarmy and appallingly written, to boot. The C- (at best) student who really thinks he's an A. And if I had a student who began a paper with a pompous paragraph on "the purpose of this paper," I would break his fingers with a mallet (others may have different pedagogical approaches). By the way, I'm beginning to think that Joel's blog actually consists of the essays he's submitting at school. A couple of minor points. First, from the numbered points at the end of the "paper":
I do not think the word "personable" means what you think it means... And:
Done. Joel's argument is so transparently bad, it hardly needs fisking -- yet it's repeated every day not only by fundamentalists, but even by reasonable people who assume that belief in a deity is somehow necessary to morality. So, briefly: Plato (or, perhaps, Socrates) did the job pretty thoroughly 2,300 years ago, in the Euthyphro. Morality cannot be extracted from ancient, authoritative texts because those texts disagree with one another, and require interpretation and choice in order to construct a moral code from them. The work of choosing and interpreting must itself be guided by an already established moral compass. Moreover, even if it were possible to discern the will of the gods/God from a holy book, oracle, or any other source, this knowledge would have no bearing on the moral status of human action. Murder (for instance) is not wrong because the gods forbid it; the gods forbid it because it is wrong. And if the gods/God ordered us to eat babies (or to slaughter unbelievers), their statement would not make the action right. In other words, whatever it is that makes actions good or bad is independent of the gods/God; they themselves look to it as much as we do. To use an example that may be close to Joel's heart, Jesus (and many others before him) said that we should treat others as we would have them treat us. Now, perhaps Joel sees this as something we have to do because God tells us to. But this rule is a good moral guide not because Jesus said it; rather, Jesus said it because it is a good moral guide. You don't need to be a Christian to see that it gets to an important human faculty -- empathy -- which is at the heart of most moral decision. And it is the notion of empathy which is (tellingly) absent from Joel's "paper." To take the overly-hysterical example he gives of the BTK killer. He argues that an atheist would have no grounds for condemning a serial killer, because he has no (what? holy book? notion of an external judge?) to refer to. But I would be very worried if any member of such a jury came to his verdict by reasoning: "This man has committed lots of murders. God says murdering people is wrong. I do what God says I should do. Therefore I judge that this person has done wrong." That, to me, itself seems coldly psychopathic. Surely any healthy human being would have the sense of common humanity to be able to imagine how the victim felt, or even more to put him/herself in the victim's position and make a judgement accordingly. Empathy allows one to recognize that this would be a terrible thing to happen to oneself, and hence is to be judged wrong. (Reason, on the other hand, is applied to judge whether the evidence presented connects the defendant to the action which is agreed to be wrong). This is why it seems to me that religion, far from instilling morality, can actually deaden it. Why bother empathizing, if you believe that a perfect judge, outside of space and time, has already decided on the person's worth. What need, for instance, to empathize with a gay teenager going through h3ll at school if you think there is an absolute matter of fact about that kid's human worth -- one that is independent of any human being recognizing it or sharing it with him. And here I don't even presume that Christians will condemn the teenager. Even a bland "God loves him!" short-circuits the human need to empathize and understand. It's hardly even worth bothering with his "critique" of "evolutionary morality." He claims that evolution says that rape, murder and theft are beneficial, so we should be doing it all the time. But we don't, because (he concludes) we have special morality which transcends our physical existence. He asks, "Why do we not see this [i.e., a moral sense] elsewhere in the animal kingdom?" But if morality is identified as "the thing that stops us doing whatever evolution tells us", and if evolution tells us to rape, murder, and steal, and if this morality is something only humans have, then it must be the case that animals rape, murder and steal all the time, every opportunity they get (a conclusion accessible to anyone who has passed Logic 101 -- but somehow missed by Joel). Yet one doesn't need to know all the literature on animal behavior to realize that that is not the case. As steve's original post implied, one only has to spend a little while with a cat (or a dog) to understand that. Anyway, I hope Joel's research assistant gig with Dembski is going well. He really couldn't have made a more appropriate hire. |
| Date: 2006/11/13 06:08:13, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Jesus on a stick, my irony-meter just went into orbit, from this post by DaveScot:
That would be in contrast to bacterial flagella, which are most definitely not poofed into existence or touched in any way by the hocus-pocus... Must get back to work, WAY too much time with the tards... |
| Date: 2006/11/13 07:26:43, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
I find it endearing that so many of our friends over there cannot spell "atheist." The most common creative spelling is "athiest," as this Google search shows (try not to read all the posts that show up, though - it gets pretty depressing). I imagine a conversation that goes like this: A: Y'know, I'm really quite athy. B: But I think I'm athier. C: No, I'm the athiest of all of you. I like the word "athy" - it's like being an atheist without being too fussed about it. |
| Date: 2006/11/13 14:09:42, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Two more than Dembski (who scores a "9")? |
| Date: 2006/11/15 09:29:39, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Davescot tries out that confusing, passive-aggressive "ID is not religion except you say it is so you must hate Jews" gambit:
It's inconceivable to me that DT really puts forward this argument sincerely. It's just to whip up the troops; look guys, this is all part of the "War on Krischuns," even though ID isn't really about JC at all. Yes, a Jew would be equally unacceptable at a public school or university IF IF IF he/she started making authoritative statements in the classroom about science/archaeology/whatever that were in fact veiled apologetics for his/her religion. There's a subtle distinction here -- too subtle, apparently -- between what people are and what they do. No one wants to ban even the craziest God-botherer from the classroom - only those who tell anatomy students that Jesus made the little pancreas. And yes, Dave, that's all ID is, in the end -- and somewhere, you know that's true. |
| Date: 2006/11/15 10:40:34, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
I believe the precise argument is "ID isn't religion, but you're anti-Semitic if you think it isn't." |
| Date: 2006/11/20 08:37:30, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Fercrissake, you flirted with Sal Cordova. Even just for pretend. I think I have to lie down for a moment. But honestly, UncommonDescent gets visited by a bubbly 17-year-old lesbian (um, undecided), sprinkling her trenchant criticism of ID with stories about holding hands with her (female) cheerleading coach. WHY did it take so long for us to figure it out!!?? By the way, it seems that someone has been trying to janiebelle Pharyngula. My money's on DT, out for revenge (oops, can he sue me for that?) |
| Date: 2006/11/20 09:19:14, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
|
The Church Lady's latest essay can be summarized in one sentence: ID is losing ground because people are more interested in watching TV. A direct quote:
I had all kinds of incisive things to say about this post, but rereading it made my eyeballs hurt and I just cannot summon the energy. It's possibly the stupidest thing I've read at UD. I challenge anyone to find any article there more likely to have been written by a bag of rocks. It clearly deserves some kind of ribbon or small medallion.
I want to know more about the truckers.
At least the tards are getting their money's worth. |
| Date: 2006/11/20 09:27:09, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
By the way, congratulations to Richard on pissing DT off so much he frontpaged his comment from this thread over at UD. That has to be a first! Drinks all round!! Make mine a double!!! But isn't DT playing a dangerous game here, alerting all the UDers -- even the casual lurkers -- about this place dedicated to taking the piss out of them? |
| Date: 2006/11/20 10:01:19, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
I've been away for a few days, so missed all the excitement. The first posts were in the gigantic homeschooling thread; the ones that seem to have caused all the fuss were all (I think) in the very lame Mmmm, Richard Dawkins! thread. The posts in the latter thread have all been disemvowelled by PZ. |
| Date: 2006/11/20 10:16:10, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
So, do you think Dave polishes his lovelamp in front of your poster, Richard? |
| Date: 2006/11/22 01:14:34, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
More from freshman bio at Tard University: Remember the big f#ck-off google fight Kepler and Galileo set up between the Ptolemaic and Copernican systems? And how could anyone forget the giant Einstein-Lorentz Google showdown? Ahhh, paradigm shifts... Not that this is actually about the theory or anything, just matters of fact. I mean, WTF is this supposed to prove? I guess that a rational person just might do this to show that they were reasonably mistaken about something. But DT still seems to be trying to reargue the point. (And yes, although the definitions he found (frantically searching the Web until 1:19 am) don't mention the word "parents," the meaning can be inferred pretty clearly from most of them). As for the whole virgin birth thing which started this mess: DT (and now Dembski) seem, ironically, to be arguing that Jesus was just a random mutation event, of an extremely improbable kind. How's that law of the conservation of information treatin' you? The Messiah just doesn't need to have so much CSI? |
| Date: 2006/11/23 23:51:30, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Did anyone catch this little bit of hubris from Dembski:
|
| Date: 2006/11/24 14:06:02, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
| I'm feeling left out of the whole PZ/RSR/Ed Brayton thing. Anyone else up for a pointless, self-destructive religious war? Jesus' foreskin, what a mess. |
| Date: 2006/11/27 06:36:13, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
I'm coming to this late, and find myself agreeing with many of the positions expressed here - at least the moderate ones, and particularly LouFCD's first post. I think he expresses my own two-mindedness over the whole religion issue. As I drive through the crappy mid-Western town where I've ended up teaching, I can't help thinking, as I see the ever-growing profusion of "non-denominational" Jesus temples, that this is a kind of growing cancer on the American intellect, selling snake-oil and sowing confusion and ignorance. And yet, and yet - so often the position of someone like PZ seems to rid so much of the human experience of its beauty. His levelling down of all religious belief to a single, false, categorical proposition is ultimately impoverishing. I'm in Rome at the moment (thank God, or at least the NEH); it seems impossible to entertain the idea that it would have been better for religion never to exist - or for it to pass away altogether now - even given the injustice and stupidity it has so often been responsible for. It has also inspired some of the greatest human achievements - and yes, even scientific ones. But what I really wanted everyone to read was this, Philip Larkin's beautiful poem "Churchgoing" - a poem by an atheist which articulates, for me at least, the discomfort I feel at the reduction of all religious sentiment by its critics to its basest form. |
| Date: 2006/11/28 03:07:37, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
How 'bout 60 copies of Of Pandas and People? But if anyone asks where the money came from, deny everything.... |
| Date: 2006/11/29 02:58:03, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Quote of the day:
OOOH, a RIDDLE, I LOVE riddles!! Let's see now, the quote is from Abbie Hoffman, and it's relevant because, ummm, let's see, oh, I know! because you all did a lot of acid in the 60s too. What do I win? |
| Date: 2006/11/29 17:19:01, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Another day, another irony meter:
'specially for Zachriel... |
| Date: 2006/12/02 02:35:57, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
Phonon: You just destroyed some of my happiest memories of adolescent masturbation. Thanks, man. That's just wrong. |
| Date: 2006/12/03 13:45:51, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
But, surely, we didn't start the fire. It was always burning, since the world's been turning. No. We didn't light it. But we tried to fight it. Or am I thinking of something else? |
| Date: 2006/12/12 04:49:57, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
So, Dave has a post with the "alternate title": "The Sound of the Tree of Life Exploding." This is a companion piece, one supposes, to The Sound of Circular Reasoning Exploding and The Sound of a Nested Hierarchy Shattering. A philosophical question: If a judge's gavel falls in a courtroom, and no creationist wishes to hear it, did it really make a sound? Coming soon, The Sound of One Tard Crapping. |
| Date: 2006/12/13 10:31:23, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
But I bet it will fire up all the adolescents who hang out over there! Like Troutmac and O'Leary and ... |
| Date: 2006/12/13 10:38:38, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
Actually, Troutmac HAS seen it! And he [HEARTS] it!
Hmmm, I dunno. Basic human decency, I guess. Oh, and absence of evidence. That too. |
| Date: 2006/12/13 14:14:59, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
It's all fireworks and fart-noises over at UD and OE. Really, if I were one of them, I'd just kind of let the whole anniversary go past without mentioning it. So why on earth are they doing everything they can to remind everyone about the gory details? The DI puts out a press release which sets everyone to combing through and rereading the ruling. Dumpster, with the assistance of his "lovely wife Jana," commissions a crappy video in which the most compelling and devastating passages in the ruling are read out. In a silly voice, and framed in farts, but still... I'm really beginning to believe that the DI is spending its millions on top-secret, brilliant research. Because it sure as h#ll isn't spending them on PR. |
| Date: 2006/12/13 16:25:19, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Gee, thanks for sharing that:
Sometimes I just want to cuddle Heddle. |
| Date: 2006/12/13 17:31:25, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
This worries me. Over at UD we have Dembski quoting an obvious troll at PT, who (says Dembski) is advocating ideological genocide. Either Dembski doesn't realize that Steve B is a troll or, as one commenter has speculated, he put him up to the whole thing. Well, predictably enough Dembski's commentators (now including Troutmac! Hi, Trouty!! ) take it deadly seriously, even going as far as to write:
(scary bits emphasized by me). Clearly the ID-researchers are making atheist-specific, biological weapons. Well, I say, bring it on! We've got the Ebola.... |
| Date: 2006/12/14 09:18:27, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
| Louis - your new avatar just blew my mind! |
| Date: 2006/12/14 15:22:01, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Bill has added an addendum to his "trolls want to kill us!" thread:
The addendum is in bold, so it's verry serrious. Amusingly, some of the commenters have gone and answered Bill's challenge, finding DaveScot and regulars yucking it up about killing atheists. I'm finding events over at UD and OE very perplexing recently, so I dug up a copy of the Wedge Document, and discovered this passage, which explains a lot:
I hadn't noticed that passage before. |
| Date: 2006/12/15 05:49:19, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
It's a standard creationist trope, to make some appalling statement, then claim that there's some deeper reason behind it. "Yes, your honor, I did shout 'Fire!' in a crowded theater, but I'm actually conducting a serious research project into what happens when you shout 'Fire' in a crowded theater." Sal Cordova has done this many times, most recently in the PZ Myers thread; see this comment especially. The argumentum ex ididntreallydoitandanywayijustwantedtoseewhatwouldhappen, to use the technical term. It really is beneath the level of adult discourse. I don't let my kindergarten-age kids get away with this ("Yes, I did hit my brother, but only because I wanted to see if he would cry"). Someone needs to put Dembski in time out. (And "time out" isn't some atheist codeword for "a gas chamber" or "Abu Ghraib," just in case we have any visitors from over there reading this. Don't want there to be any misunderstandings). |
| Date: 2006/12/15 06:25:58, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
What a catch! One helluva Design Inference! Give that man a cold glass of Ebola and fresh church to burn!! Seriously, that's a coup. Unmistakably Dembski. I'm just surprised that the Research Professor (the only one! ) at Southern Redneck Bible College has the time on his hands to make this recording himself. Christmas has indeed come early this year Nice find on the backwards masking, too. I discovered that if you start playing the whole animation on the very first chord of Dark Side of the Moon, it sounds like complete shit. |
| Date: 2006/12/15 17:00:04, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
|
| Date: 2006/12/16 04:17:04, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
Has DaveScot been caught plagiarizing? It certainly looks that way! The whole "Evolution as Ptolemaic Astronomy" is wrong on so many levels, but I just cannot be bothered fisking it. One little point, though: we all admire Kuhn and all, but perhaps they should think whether a book written 45 years ago, with a strong philosophical agenda, is likely to represent the most up-to-date understanding of historians of science? Kuhn's "history" was recognized to be out-dated and highly selective even when the book was published. DT's two principal charges against Ptolemaic astronomy - that it multiplied epicycles without end and that it lacked predictive power compared both to available observational evidence and, more particularly, to the new Copernican astronomy - are both crocks of sh#t. Kuhn trumped up these charges because he needed to demonstrate an objective crisis, one that would have created a feeling of unease among contemporary practitioners, preparing the ground for the revolutionary moment. But no such problems existed in the Ptolemaic system, and no widespread "crisis" existed in early sixteenth-century astronomy. That is why modern scholars have had to turn to other factors (influence of Platonism, religious considerations, notions of theoretical beauty, reassessment of the low status of mathematics and astronomy, in comparison with natural philosophy, insistence within certain branches of Aristotelianism on universal physical, material causation - no angels pushing planets) to explain the gradual change to Copernicanism. Anyway, their history of science sucks as much as their science. |
| Date: 2006/12/16 10:11:21, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Don't feel so bad that you're not in the in-crowd, Keith; you're famous:
No comment needed, or even possible. |
| Date: 2006/12/22 04:05:21, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
| Born UK (Bristol); childhood and adolescence in New Zealand; UK for grad school and real life for a decade or so; now in Indiana; on leave in Italy! |
| Date: 2006/12/22 14:04:42, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Class act:
You people are completely f#cking contemptible. Did I just say that out loud? EDIT: Whoops - must read whole thread before hitting SUBMIT. Sorry. |
| Date: 2006/12/23 17:03:05, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
| Merry Christmas to all: whether you're spreading good cheer or Ebola, attending church on Christmas morning or just burning one down. |
| Date: 2006/12/24 03:26:30, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
My favorite DaveScot post from the whining, clueless losers thread:
In other words, if you're so smart, why are you talking to me? Or, more generally, by commenting on UD you are tacitly admitting that there is nowhere more respectable that would hear your arguments. These seem to me to be sound observations. |
| Date: 2006/12/24 03:30:32, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Cheers, don't mind if I do... |
| Date: 2006/12/24 03:40:16, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
What resolutions do you have for the New Year? Me, I'm beginning to think that laughing at the UDers is getting old. Now that they've crossed the line into self-parody, it's becoming uncomfortably close to teasing actual retards. I pledge to use my spare internet time I would normally have wasted by reading UD for more constructive purposes. There's a nice Nigerian chap who wants my help transferring some funds out of the country. And then there's all that online porn I've never got around to looking at (well, not systematically, anyway). I'm taking the high road here - who's with me? |
| Date: 2006/12/26 11:43:30, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
It's a "faux" post - so not true, but with reference to a number of genuine recent Dembski idiocies. |
| Date: 2006/12/26 16:06:37, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||||||||||
|
This has been a great year for ID. Yes, yes, some moaning minnies think otherwise, but I don't have any time for Mr Negative! Nor does Ms O'Leary, who helpfully reminds us of the explosion of recent work in ID. Her post, (which is an extract from the complete year in review on one of her blogs - I lose track of them all! ) tells us that just a few years ago, you could have reeled off the seminal ID masterworks from memory; now, however, "you need a library shelving cart and a budget to match" just to keep up with the controversy! It's a long post, and it certainly looks like an awful lot has been going on in ID's annus mirabilis, so let's look in some detail at her "Thoughts on recent books on the intelligent design controversy: Some ways to spend your holiday cash." The first six paragraphs actually survey the ID research published in the past, both in books and, of course, in the much-less-old-materialist-media DVD format. Not quite on-topic, especially given the rapid rate of development in ID - who would want to spend their holiday cash on an ID book five or ten years old? It just wouldn't be current! But now I'm being picky. Let's move on to the new stuff:
Weeell, that's a little sneaky. Behe's book is actually unchanged from ten years ago - and the afterword doesn't even address any of the scientific arguments made against irreducible complexity. So, I'm afraid this one can't count as a new ID publication.
Now, this is fascinating! Francis Collins must be a silly little man - after all, both O'Leary and PZ agree on that! But still, I'm stretching to see what this has to do with ID. So, I'm afraid it has to be nul points on that one too. Skipping some more not-taking-Collins-seriously,
I confess I didn't know this book - but, from reviews I've just read, it does seem to be influenced by ID. Someone more elitist than I might note that this book was self-published, and is not really peer-reviewed or anything - but that's hardly in the spirit of the season. So, the score stands at 1.
I like sidebars too, Denyse! They help you keep track of those difficult, you know, words. And this is quite definitely a major ID publication, so you're on the board with 2 points!! It puzzles me a little that you don't mention Ann's marvelous Godless - which was, after all, Bill Dembski's major publication this year.
3. You've got 3.
That stings a bit, because I happen to have a degree in chimp footprint art, and now teach Creative Profanity at a Research I university. I think that was a little uncalled for, Denyse. But still, a point is a point, so you've got 4.
OK, that's 5 publications. That would stretch many libraries' acquisition budgets, especially when they're also paying exorbitant prices for scientific journals (in evolutionary biology, for example). And the librarians would certainly be grateful if they had a shelving cart on hand, once they all started flooding into the library! So, all you sourpusses out there, let's just remember what a terrific year this has been -- and hope that our friends on the ID side can provide us with as much prestigious new research in the new year! |
| Date: 2007/01/09 14:33:25, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
What you're forgetting, Bebbo, is that Dave was writing cribbage programs. People are prepared to spend the big bucks on such mission-critical software. PS: Just got back from 2-week family vacation, away from internets, phone and even newspapers. Have had to spend the best part of a day catching up on all the tarditude - Jaysus, do you people never sleep? PPS: What does it say about me that after two weeks without internets yadidyadiya, I spend my time reading this site before even checking, say, the New York Times to see if the world has gone to h#ll in my absence? [EDIT] PPPS: Apparently the world has been going to ####, as ever. |
| Date: 2007/01/09 17:04:39, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
First thing here that has LITERALLY (as DT would say) made me wet myself... |
| Date: 2007/01/10 04:23:59, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
|
Dave bites (or, at least, gums) Febble. I just posted this comment (not sure if Dave will allow it to appear, so pasting it here):
[EDIT] s/Feddle/Febble. D#MN!! |
| Date: 2007/01/10 04:38:02, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Post appeared, but edited down to the first sentence. My reply:
|
| Date: 2007/01/10 06:51:54, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Dave's actions, ironically, confirm the very thing that he banned Febble for. Think about this: Through Dave's constant bannings and outrageous behavior, all of the intelligent UD commenters have come over to this forum, leaving the lame behind in UD. He has, in other words, imposed a pattern or design on these two blogs, sorting almost perfectly the commenters into "smart" and "stupid" classes. Yet DaveScot is not an intelligent agent! QED. |
| Date: 2007/01/10 13:51:33, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
This was a thread started by Dembski, soliciting comment from UK readers. Then, once a UK reader actually starts commenting and discussing Dembski's own work - in critical but unflappably polite terms - he gets DaveScot to boot her without even making a single reply himself. Honestly, put yourself in Dembski's place. If someone criticized one of my own articles in such a way, I would be flattered, and would attempt to answer in the same manner. I wouldn't get a judge to slap a restraining order on them, or alert the FBI, or whatever the analogy is to sending in DaveScot. Dembski does this all the time: makes a post (often a cut and paste, without even daring to express his own opinion), then goes completely silent, letting his handlers do all the work. He's a complete chickensh*t. People have often speculated on DT's mental state. I think the real headcase here is Dembski. Dave just enables his appalling behavior. I know from experience that those who enable borderline personality/paranoid types can be even more antisocial than the sufferers themselves. |
| Date: 2007/01/11 01:27:01, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
I share your conviction that he's not a moron - that, at least, sets him apart from his sycophants at UD. I'm sure he could have been a good scholar - but he decided to misuse his talents this way. No doubt that is part of the reason for the silence. He's smart enough to know that if you poke ID with a stick hard enough, it will all fall down - if he actually engaged his critics, that would become obvious (as it did with Behe). No, I just think he is a poisonous individual. I don't pretend to know what's going on inside of him, but his behavior is just so far off the charts of what is normal. And it's not just the nutty Christianity (though that's a big part of it). I find, for instance, David Heddle's views on some subjects to be equally foreign to me. But, because of the manner in which Heddle comports himself and the language with which he expresses his views, I can think of him as if he were a colleague with whom I happen to disagree strongly. I could never think of Dembski in the same way. |
| Date: 2007/01/11 02:31:19, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
| As long as we're speculating on what ails the ID proponents, psychologically speaking, RSR has a fun little post on quote-mining as a species of aphasia. |
| Date: 2007/01/11 06:15:42, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
![]() THIS TARD GOES UP TO 11!! |
| Date: 2007/01/11 06:59:14, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
My commish? Ann Coulter? Barbie Doll? Me and my old lady? Naked on Rosarita Beach? Posted, you note, at 1:43 am. Apparently on smack. |
| Date: 2007/01/11 08:15:25, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
I imagine the Great Debate will go something like this: Barbara: Hey Bill, did you wet the bed last night? Bill: Hey Barbara, did you take a dump in your bed last night? Barbara: I could kick your butt Bill so I'd shut up Bill: Why don't you go tell your mom to shut up Barbara: What'd you say? Bill: Whatever I feel like I wanna say Barbara: Did you say something about my mom? Bill: Maybe I did and maybe I didn't Barbara: Do you wanna die Bill? Bill: Yeah right. Who's the only one here who knows the illegal ninja moves from the government? |
| Date: 2007/01/12 01:27:22, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||||||||
But at least ID does seem to have come up with a research program:
It was good enough to be repeated by a commenter in another thread:
Got that? Write it down! This is the new paradigm of future research. Scientists will from henceforth look at "stupid" things and try and see if they are, umm, "clever." Precise, quantifiable definitions of both terms are forthcoming any day now... But over at Pharyngula, in the thread on WAD's "kill all the biologists" fantasy, a real biological engineer weighs in:
Well then, sir, you're just not looking at it with the eye of faith. Somehow I don't think President Dembski will be keeping you around. |
| Date: 2007/01/12 14:14:18, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
| Hey, where's Church Lady? Don't get me wrong, there's been some fine tard in the last few weeks 'n' all - but I need a drop of the hard stuff... |
| Date: 2007/01/12 16:00:47, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
As I understand it, the feudal system was a great improvement on the complete chaos of the "dark ages." (I remember a colleague once saying that the 9th century was the single worst time to be alive in the entire history of Europe). During this period, the church really did provide the only thing resembling order and civilization - though they were not yet the political force and secular power they became in the high middle ages and Renaissance. Also, thanks to the compromises hammered out in late antiquity between Christianity and pagan learning, churchmen preserved, recopied and even read the classics of Latin literature and philosophy. The notion that religion was responsible for the collapse of learning and science is very unfair - pretty much a product of nineteenth-century anticlericalism. |
| Date: 2007/01/15 02:24:05, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
Warning! Set irony meters to lowest possible sensitivity before reading this post by Gil Dodgen:
"Oh, all these animals just appeared" - whereas ID prefers, as we know, to go into tedious detail about how it all happened. On a related subject, in idnet.com.au's "God is in the bold-faced words" post, the commenter apollo230 proposes a plausible research program for ID:
This is precisely what I've always thought: if ID really did have the ability to detect the injection of design into living things, it would be the most extraordinarily exciting discovery in the history of science. Biologists would be meticulously examining these unambiguously "designed" objects to discover exactly how and when the designer works. The fact that even the DI's Potemkin lab isn't pursuing this research speaks volumes. In the quote above, Wells seems to dismiss the possibility of ever understanding - or even attempting to understand - the Cambrian "explosion." And apollo230's reasonable suggestion is not met with much enthusiasm either:
|
| Date: 2007/01/15 03:40:34, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Holy sh*t, I completely missed the citizenbob discussion which preceded this - that's the most insane thing I've ever read. It's hard to pick out a favorite gem from such a trove of glittering tard - but one ended up in my sig. I'm off to put stickers in some of my own books!! |
| Date: 2007/01/15 10:21:49, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
With the citizenbob thread - sockpuppetry or not - we really have hit the motherlode of stupid.
SUPERNATURAL DENTISTRY!!! ![]() |
| Date: 2007/01/15 12:18:47, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Ssshhhhh...... (It's not me, I hasten to add. And I'm not at all convinced it is a sockpuppet. There are, after all, plenty of UD regulars who are quite retarded enough to be posting this. Personally, I think citizenbob is Michael7's son. Maybe his lovechild with O'Leary. What do you think a child from that infernal coupling would be like? Exactly. Let's not close this down just yet). |
| Date: 2007/01/15 16:15:46, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||||||||
OK, so Dembski posts from some humor site a picture of an empty cage, with a sign on it reading:
He poses the provocative question:
The comments are simply unbelievable (all quotes below from different comments). A lot of the regulars get upset about the blasphemy of this situation:
Hmm, well, it's just a crappy Photoshop. That seems a little OTT. It's not like there's a real cage or something.
WHO ARE THEY!!?? WHO ARE THEY!!?? THERE IS NO THEY!!!
THERE IS NO CAGE, PEOPLE!! THERE IS NO CAGE!!!
OMFG!! THERE IS NO EXPERIMENT!! THERE IS NO EXPERIMENT!!! Finally Atom, who wins the AtBC prize this week for being the sharpest tool in a very dull box, puts them all out their misery:
Sometimes I think Dembski should charge for access to UD. This amount of comedy shouldn't come free. |
| Date: 2007/01/17 02:05:14, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
I haven't followed the GoP threads at all. But I've heard lots of references recently to his having admitted to trolling for the past year. Which thread, and when did he admit this? |
| Date: 2007/01/17 07:25:58, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||||
|
In the last couple of days, Dembski has posted two ID experiments to UD: the empty cage, and the green goo. Do you think he's working on a science fair project? If so, Bill, there are lots of other neat ideas here! Some of my favorites:
Guess that one has something to do with the Flood.
That one may not have such a happy ending. Next time try it with a lion and a lamb.
Riiight. [backs away slowly]
Or you could do them on the guy whose thumbs you just cut off. Finally:
Remember, kids, always use plenty of lube... |
| Date: 2007/01/17 09:32:26, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
From the same thread:
Trouty, dude, if you're going to be a teleologist at least be an educated one. Aristotle dealt with the fallacy of ascribing intention to nature a good while back now. Natural processes (he says) act to an end, but do so without forethought or deliberation. If something has such and such an essence, then its internal principle of change (or its "nature") will drive its development so that it can best perform the functions appropriate to that essence. As he lays it out, especially in Physics II and Parts of Animals I, nature is exactly as if it were designed, except that there is no designer - just as a spider produces a web which is as it were designed, yet the spider never engages in the kind of deliberation characteristic of a human designer. The appearance - and reality - of design is brought about by individuals each developing (through the interaction of their internal principle with the environment) so as to perform the functions appropriate to their way of life as well as they can. Aristotle's brilliant analysis shows that an external designer - such as the Demiurge of Plato's Timaeus - is an illusion. You could also benefit, Fishboy, from thinking about what he has to say in the Physics about chance, coincidence and necessity. (I'll leave it someone else to make the obvious point about rolling a die and never getting a seven.) Sorry to go on about it, but it's still one of my great disappointments that ID (or UD) is so intellectually shallow. As a historian of science with an interest in classical philosophy, I first looked at UD and ID literature with some hopes that it would at least be interesting, if still wrong: I expected to find a re-appreciation of pre-scientific teleological natural philosophy: Aristotelianism, Neoplatonist emanationism, Stoic materialism. Instead, apart from DT's empty and aggressive bluster, all I could see was a thousand ways of saying "Goddidit." They make assertions about "design," "intelligence," "chance" and "intention," yet never bother even to reflect on what they mean by these terms, still less take account of 2000-odd years of human conversation about these very issues (apart from the conversations of literalist theologians). EDIT: typos |
| Date: 2007/01/17 09:36:31, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
Thanks. |
| Date: 2007/01/17 09:43:20, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Fishboy, again:
God's foreskin, these people are so f*cking stupid. (BTW, creationists should never use the phrase "think about it." It only reminds the reader that they haven't.) |
| Date: 2007/01/17 12:53:47, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
In the big tent, there's room for a range of opinions on the parabola focus controversy. One. Two. None. Seventeen. They're all good. |
| Date: 2007/01/17 14:56:06, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
All you need to know is that Louis is a soft southern bastard. (Actually, so am I, come to think of it). |
| Date: 2007/01/17 15:41:47, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Weeping. LITERALLY weeping. |
| Date: 2007/01/17 16:16:34, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
For American readers who are confused about the whole North-South thing, here is a link to an actual documentary about Liverpudlians (or "scouse gits" as they are known affectionately in the South) which should go a long way to clarifying it. |
| Date: 2007/01/18 02:53:48, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
Yeah, both Ujvarosky's magazine article (whoops!, sorry, "peer-reviewed paper") and quizzlestick's fawning puffery are completely beyond parody. Ujvarosky:
quizzlestick:
The 'shrooms must help, too. |
| Date: 2007/01/18 02:57:36, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
More old British comedy Oh, and this one's for k.e. [Must. Get. Back. To. Work.] |
| Date: 2007/01/18 07:11:45, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
Sweet! And I didn't even know I had been banned! Anyway, it's given me a new sig.
1: It wasn't a quote, it was an allusion. 2: You really want to make an issue of this, Dave? Then take it up with Jesusart. No, somehow I didn't think you would. 3: Cute pets (we can all be friends when it comes to ickle animals, can't we? Even though, as a Darwinist, I regularly drown kittens just to improve my odds in the struggle for existence. Those little f*ckers will take your food if you don't get them first). |
| Date: 2007/01/18 09:18:00, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Hold on... lower left of the picture... the red thing... is that a dog toy or a butt plug? |
| Date: 2007/01/18 09:48:42, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
No, that would be way too subtle for me. I would probably amend my comment to: "Hold on... lower left of the picture... the red thing... is that a dog toy or a butt plug? And, if it is a butt plug, has it been up Dave's butt? And now the dog is playing with it? That's gross." There, much clearer! (Though you are right - sorry if I did gross anyone out). More on-topic: that thread is puttering along nicely now. Is it my imagination, or is it all YEC all the time at UD these days? They can't talk about anything without bringing in the Flood. Any pretence, even, that it's not about religion has fallen away. (Yet, the next time someone in the media uses the term "creationist" to refer to ID, you can bet everyone will be jumping up and down and asking where journalists get these ideas from). |
| Date: 2007/01/18 12:22:59, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
D#MN! Now I get it! I really thought that he was just posting pictures of his pets -- kind of a Friday cat-blogging thing -- and then the YEC retards leapt all over it. But it was (implicitly) YEC from the start -- and they just picked up on the coded cues. Little slow on the uptake today. |
| Date: 2007/01/19 03:50:55, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
God, the cover-illustrations on these ID books. Why not just put on a big f3cking sticker saying "Self-published"? |
| Date: 2007/01/19 14:55:18, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
In the past, Steve has cautioned us that we should try to go beyond "WTF is wrong with these people" - but really, what the F*CK is wrong with these people. Aquaman above is a special kind of scary stupid. Other creationists have their minds warped with religious dogma, and only hear what they want to hear - but are still (to a small extent) aware that there is a distinction between scientific and religious discourse. They can't just quote the Bible; they have to come up with something that looks like a scientific argument, even if it's completely vacuous. The Man from Atlantis, on the other hand, seems absolutely incapable even of distinguishing between the types of thought. With him, you really feel that 400 years of history just didn't happen. And then there's his worrying hostility towards scientists, the violence of which Kristine has already expressed her concern about - and yes, in belated response to her post, it really bothers me too; what got me into creationist-watching was not so much the specific falsehoods they spew, but the deeper anti-intellectual and anti-cultural fascism that lies at its root of it all, one which is becoming part of the mainstream of American life in a way that was unthinkable a few years ago. This is why I can't be as sanguine as, say, Lenny has been in the past. ID may have been squashed at Dover, but the deeper cancer hasn't been eradicated - not even close. By the way, anyone know anything about Mario A. Lopez of "Ciencia alternativa," who seems to be a regular over there? He does little more that parrot Dembski and Behe - at least in the couple of posts I've read from him (including the one in this same thread). |
| Date: 2007/01/19 16:26:54, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
You forgot "homo." |
| Date: 2007/01/20 02:09:39, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Hovind blogging just before the sentence:
Pray specifically... wow. |
| Date: 2007/01/20 13:30:57, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
| Y'know, I thought you were, Richard. I hope that no one from OE/UD reads your post, though. It would be a shame if you were banned. |
| Date: 2007/01/20 13:54:51, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
But Richard, as Troutmac, you were never given administrative powers over OE, were you (though it would have been cool if you had been)? I'm sure that that's left to Patrick, SChen etc. Anyway, we should probably all keep stumm about this. Richard/Troutmac has provided a great deal of entertainment; I don't want it to end quite yet! |
| Date: 2007/01/20 14:32:44, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Troutmac/Richard:
This is too obvious trollery. Remember, ID has nothing to do with religion. Try to keep in character, Richard. They'll be on to you. I'll shut up now. |
| Date: 2007/01/21 09:26:15, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
Poking around Google video, I find that the whole of Life on Earth has been uploaded there. I haven't seen that since I was a kid - and it's all but impossible to get a (hard)copy of the video! I plan a nostalgic viewing of the whole series over the next week. |
| Date: 2007/01/22 01:59:54, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
I'm somewhere in the middle on the "ID is dead" argument. I think they *are* making efforts to regroup and rethink and, eventually, start making political mischief again. But they're led by people who are not only incompetent but, fatally, have no political instincts whatsoever. Dembski - absolutely zero. Keeping UD going is by itself evidence of political tone-deafness. There are only so many iterations of anti-evolution that can be played out. I do feel that, with ID, the most "sciencey" sounding of them, they've played their last card there. It will be all but impossible to come up with another way of putting lipstick on that particular pig. As far as intellectual direction goes (and I use the word "intellectual" loosely), I would put money on the tards giving up on evolution and shifting their attention to psychology. First, there's the "argument from personal incredulity," which is stronger here than anywhere else. Even I find it difficult really to believe that my personality and conciousness is an emergent property of material processes - a fortiori for even a moderately religious person. There is also a respectable philosophical tradition of dualism, which still pokes its head above the parapet from time to time. I expect them to evoke this tradition, and to be able to find plenty of respectable, contemporary philosophers to offer support - not just Plantinga this time. Secondly, they have been making noises in that direction for some time. (I've been googling for the following posts, but haven't been able to find them - maybe someone else recalls them?) Some time ago, Dembski actually replied to commenter in a thread he started. The commenter said that for Dembski really to succeed in his anti-evolution campaign, he would have to undermine the material basis of consciousness. Dembski replied, very tersely, that that was his long-term goal. Then we had DT, quite recently, talking about "some research" which shows that brains do not do the thinking themselves, but act as radio receivers, picking up signals from an immaterial consciousness "outside." Odds on that this is DI/super-secret-ID-mailing-list stuff. Finally, Church Lady is about to come out with her godawful book on this very subject. Lenny, it may be the case that the demographics of the US are changing, but so are the ethnic groups themselves. In particular, in the Latino community fundevangelicalism is the single fastest growing religion - and it is growing faster in that group than anywhere else. We fret about the midwestern white kids being sent off to Jesus camp - but we also need to worry about the enormous political and cultural shift happening in the Latino community. I think this alone will ensure the survival both of the Republicans and the fundamentalist movement in the States. |
| Date: 2007/01/24 03:07:10, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
DaveScot, military analyst (my bold below):
That's the most ass-backward justification I've ever heard for the Iraq war: we need the Iraq war to create seasoned veterans, in order to fight the Iraq war (and the other ones we set off in the Middle East). Iraq is just like Vietnam, but in a good way. And Bush has managed this war even better than Vietnam:
A brilliant strategy.
I think you meant to say, "Drop and give me 500, homo". If you're going to be a self-parody, at least try to be accurate. |
| Date: 2007/01/24 04:41:11, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
"Troutmac":
Richard/"Troutmac", this is too tardly to be plausible. I mean, "just because it's difficult for us to imagine it doesn't mean that it didn't happen"?? You might as well say, "Just because it's difficult to imagine that the world emerged from the body of the ice-giant Ymir, it doesn't mean it didn't happen"; or "Just because it's difficult to imagine that Huitzilpochtli the humming-bird god has demanded the sacrifice of beating human hearts, it doesn't mean it didn't happen." Or even, "just because it's difficult for us to imagine that all life descends from a common ancestor, through random variation and natural selection, it doesn't mean it didn't happen." And stop using the phrase "think about it," when your sockpuppet obviously hasn't. We don't want you to get yourself banned from OE, or anything. |
| Date: 2007/01/24 07:35:30, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
OK, OK, just having a little fun here.... [Putting on tinfoil hat] But all those so-called biographical details are just too tardaliciously perfect. Could it be that Richard has cunningly laid a false trail for us, just as the Creator seeded the rocks with "old" fossils? As Troutmac himself might say, "I have every reason to suspect that Richard T Hughes invented Troutmac. What reason do I have to believe otherwise?" The avatar, for instance, is quite clearly DaveScot's little brother. How Richard got hold of that, I don't know. [Removing tinfoil hat] Eccch, reality is just too boring. |
| Date: 2007/01/24 15:21:52, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
First time I read that, I thought it said "just those who’ve served in my beloved corpse." That wasn't a nice thought. Comments have been closed and "disappeared." |
| Date: 2007/01/25 00:23:44, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Granddad, what did you do in the war against Darwinism:
Well sure, you could do research if you really want. But the exciting work is in blogging and issuing press releases! In the comments, Sal reports proudly:
I don't think Sal gets the irony behind the Steve list. |
| Date: 2007/01/25 04:43:32, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
I'm not going to address any of the scientific issues here - others are more qualified than I am to do that! But what you have to say about your religious sentiments interests me. I'm picking out two or three passages (not in their original order):
There are a couple of reasons why this interests me. First, when I do think about God, or the possibility of God, it's in the terms you describe in the first two quotes. For me, God is either absolutely everything (and inseparable from everything), or nothing at all. For many reasons (which I won't go into here - I'm sure you've been led to the same thoughts) the notion of a personal, "separable" God is absurd to me. That is why I prefer to call myself a non-theist, rather than an atheist. I'm not certain that the word "divine" has no reference, and I find Taoism, some Gnostic writings etc. to be very moving - to hit some truth which ordinary discourse doesn't reach. But I'm quite certain that there isn't a God after the Christian model. I've found some food for thought in the past at the Scientific Pantheism website. That is why I can understand the "struggle" you describe in the third quotation. It is a real struggle, because the two ideas you are trying to hold in your head are incompatible. Behe/Dembski type ID - which you seem to want to defend, irreducible complexity and all - absolutely requires an intelligence separate from the objects of design. Yes, it might be a space alien, but it's still working as an intelligent agent utterly distinct from that which is being designed. Whether you think of the Behe/Dembski designer as an alien or as something supernatural, all of the ID "theorists" are committed to dualism and division: something inert, lifeless, passive, being given form and life by something utterly different from it. There is just no way to reconcile that with the monism that you've come to by other routes. As I've said, I can empathize with your philosophical/religious position, and even share it to some extent. It is an exhilirating view of the cosmos and the unity of all things. Behe/Dembski ID, on the other hand, is a mean, unimaginative world-view. They are the materialists, because they reduce God to a tinkerer in matter, fixing up bacteria much as a highly-skilled human engineer might do it; they simply cannot conceive that the divine may be bigger than any of their categories. |
| Date: 2007/01/25 05:18:08, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
Dembski announces the McGrath-Dennett debate on the future of atheism. And everyone's being really sweet about it! First, up pops DaveScot:
That's quite thoughtful of you, Dave. Then russ:
Now IDist:
See, we can all get along so nicely, and respect our intellectual adversaries. This party is just going so swell, everyone's being so ni...
OH NO, IT'S DEBBIE DOWNER!!!!! |
| Date: 2007/01/25 06:12:41, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
Dave:
Dave, once more:
Dave, again:
Still Dave:
Dave, are you, like, on a secret listserve or something? |
| Date: 2007/01/25 10:09:34, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Well, my purpose wasn't to argue that Behe/Dembski ID was incompatible with Christian theism. It would be kind of strange if it were incompatible, don't you think? That said, it's hardly surprising that ID was "intelligently designed" to go hand-in-hand with American evangelical religion - the most thoroughly materialistic* version of Christianity. Somehow, I don't see Meister Eckhart, or the Cappadocian Fathers, or Duns Scotus, or Gerard Manley Hopkins, or any number of other great Christian thinkers and writers falling for the bacterial flagellum. Their vision was greater than that - a vision I can acknowledge and admire, even without sharing it. And then there's the whole school of process theology which sees evolution as the only possible way for God - the Christian God - to have acted. They're certainly not going to be beating a path to Dembski or Behe's doors either. The question is not, or shouldn't be, whether theism or non-theistic spirituality is compatible with evolution. The truth of evolution is not going to be altered one whit by how we wish God's relationship with the world to be. Nor is the question whether we can form a conception of the divine that is simply compatible with experience. That's like fitting spirituality into the cracks left in matter, and is just one step up from the "God of the gaps." Rather, the question is whether we can grasp the divine in a way that embraces and celebrates our experience, while at the same time transcending and unifying it. Or we can take the Dembski/Behe route: lie and obfuscate, deny empirical fact in order to prop up an impoverished notion of the divine, one which is a blend of fundamentalist pieties and their own self-image (God the biochemical engineer; God the probability-busting mathematician). Or you can say "to #### with all of that" and just love the science - as most regulars here would say! I'm not trying to preach here. So many of the numbskulls at UD, and afdave, are quite simply unreachable. They're already committed to their thoroughly limited conception of god, for which Behe/Dembski ID is a perfect apologetic. No amount of explaining that, "no, God didn't make the flagellum, it's quite explicable by normal natural processes" is ever going to reach them. In avocationist, on the other hand, we have someone who seems almost as blindly devoted to the Behe/Dembski flimflam as an other UDer, yet claims to have a worldview, a metaphysics which is entirely incompatible with ID. That puzzles me, but also interests me. I'd like to hear more from her about this: which part of her belief-system does she not follow through to the end? Not being snarky - we're all imperfect, inconsistent animals - but genuinely interested. *By "materialistic" here I mean vulgar, crass and self-serving. Since I think that matter is all there is, and that it is quite marvelous, I don't usually use the term as an insult, or with this sense! |
| Date: 2007/01/25 13:02:38, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Lady, you've walked into a room of curious, highly-opinionated people. We're all taking time out of our schedules to ask you questions, give you things to read, argue with you. We're so excited, we're all talking at once. We've given you your own thread. Just imagine, for a moment, whether the regulars at UD, in a comparable situation, would be anything like as interested in or ready to debate with someone from the "other side." Actually, you don't need to imagine - most of us have already been banned from there, for simply wanting to raise the possibility that they might have gotten anything wrong. This is what's called taking someone seriously - even if it can get a little rough around the edges. So don't whine about "accusations" and "sneers." Just be as honest and straightforward with everyone as they are all being with you. |
| Date: 2007/01/25 13:33:51, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
OK, well it's difficult to know how to answer this. First, as I've already made clear, I'm not a theist - so, clearly, I'm going to find a "separable," personal god to be lacking. If I didn't, I would be some sort of theist. My opinion, then, doesn't get to your question about whether a God visibly active in the world is a "small" God - and is compatible with Christian theism. I've already said that there is an admirable current of Christian thought that does have a view of God more lofty than a supernatural cosmic tinkerer. On the other hand, my opinion here counts for little since (1) I'm not a Christian, and quite vehemently reject the notion of the "supernatural" altogether and (2) millions upon millions of Christians (and other theists) are quite satisfied with that "version" of God. On a purely empirical basis then, it seems indisputable that this kind of god is compatible with Christian theism. But as to your specific statement: whether 'a separable God involved in designing the flagellum was somehow a "small" god.' To this, I have to say that if there are Christians out there worshipping the God who made the flagellum, then yes, they are worshipping a very small God indeed. Because - and it shouldn't need to be repeated - God didn't design the flagellum. Or, at least, we have no compelling evidence that the flagellum is a special case, different from the countless other features of the natural world that the scientific method has explained. The God of the flagellum is a chimaera; those who worship it are, as Francis Bacon put it, "seeking to gratify God with a lie." I find it difficult to imagine quite how - or why - a separable God would fiddle with things. There is the fact that no such "intervention" has ever been found - and every time one has been declared, closer investigation has uncovered natural causes. But, for me, the problem is deeper than that. This is probably a bit flippant, but I recall a conversation I had with some friends at the pub a few months ago. None were "conventional theists," and they were discussing what might turn them into theists. Someone suggested that if God sent down a plaque - or rearranged the stars - with a message along the lines of "This is God; I do exist; read the Bible - it's a more or less reliable guide to what I'm all about", then they would believe. I couldn't disagree more. In part, it's Hume's objection to miracles: I would find it less of a miracle to believe that I had gone insane, or that the human race was in the grip of a collective delusion, than to admit the much greater miracle of the suspension of the laws of nature. But even more so, the whole scenario struck me as tacky. Cheap. Cheesy. To be the ground of being of the universe, and yet so insecure as to wish to compel belief by violating your own laws of nature - that's a small god, and not one I want to know. The bacterial flagellum - if it turned out to be proof positive of supernatural intervention - would be just such a calling card from a two-bit deity. EDIT: Fixed quote problem. And BWE, cheers! just saw your post. and you should encourage your colleague to join us legitimately! |
| Date: 2007/01/25 14:40:56, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Baghdad Sal:
Oh Intelligent Design, why so many "unwitting" research partners? |
| Date: 2007/01/25 16:34:01, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled pantheist. (With apologies to Richard Dawkins). |
| Date: 2007/01/26 01:39:51, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
You see, when a spirited conversation starts up at UD and then the person offering a dissenting view stops posting, that's because he/she's been banned. Sometimes Dave or even Dembski makes some remark like "So-and-so is no longer with us." That's what banning looks like. (And that's to say nothing about any number of critical -- thoughtfully, politely critical -- posts are submitted to any given thread, but get weeded out before they even appear. This fact is also often mentioned by the moderators - about comments being caught in the moderation queue, about the hard work they have sifting through all the comments). It seems, avocationist, that you're not very good at paying attention to evidence, and this is just another example of your apparently willful blindness. You "think" that ID is true, but cannot offer a single plausible reason for your conviction. It seems that you want it to be true, because a universe with a disembodied mind hanging around in it is preferable to you than one without. The problem is, the universe doesn't care what you want. You "think" that space aliens visited the earth - but I'm willing to put down good money - or even a bottle of scotch! - that you have no better reason for thinking so than that you wish it were so. You seem to rely entirely on the truthiness of propositions; yet insist on telling "Darwinists" that they are in a conspiracy to ignore the evidence. BWE's mystery poster made a very good point: everyone here has looked at ID, checked out the evidence, discovered that there is nothing there and moved on. You whine about the insults and accusations you've received, but take a moment to think about how profoundly you insult the intelligence and character of these people when you act this way. |
| Date: 2007/01/26 08:51:56, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
It's not entirely clear from Kazmer's fascinating research - he probably needs to gather some more hard experimental data - but there's no reason she has to consume her own semen. Yeehah! Bathroom Wall, HERE WE COME! |
| Date: 2007/01/26 09:04:15, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||||||
You cynics should note that Krazy Kazmer has provided falsifiable claims for his version of ID - which, let us never forget, is erected (!) on the foundations of Behe and Dembski. Let's take a look:
Anyone? Look behind your sneakers.
Nope. Didn't catch that one.
But I thought common ancestry was a falsifiability criterion of evol ... oh, never mind.
And we falsify this ... how?
Ebola boys, you know what you have to do.
I'd better clean out the spare room. So the conclusion is that ID predicts that Jesus will take over our couch. And ID is falsified if this never happens. Enough bitching, guys. We got science here. PS: People, are we doing anything worthwhile here? Because it's beginning to feel like critiquing an astrology magazine. |
| Date: 2007/01/26 09:57:25, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
HAHAHAHA! If I weren't banned there, I'd start asking a few more questions myself: What's that word for an illegitimate child? All I can remember is that it starts with BAS. Can anyone finish it for me? I've been working on repairing my driveway. I bought some tar at the hardware store - let's call it Tar 'A' - but it was no good. I had the same problem with Tar 'B', and Tar 'C' was frankly a disaster! What do you think I should try next? |
| Date: 2007/01/26 11:28:27, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
Hey, how about this one? "I read so many of William Dembski's books that now I'm a complete re... what's the word?" |
| Date: 2007/01/27 02:52:40, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Creationists shouldn't make jokes about not paying taxes... :D |
| Date: 2007/01/28 15:04:59, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Dammit, I'm trying to swear off UD/OE for a while - article due, reviews overdue, faith in humanity faltering - and then Mats has to go and post something like this:
Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in again. |
| Date: 2007/01/29 03:14:06, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Apologies - nuances can be lost in this medium, and ironic inflections are usually the first to go. And, as you may have noticed, what gets people riled up here is not ignorance (in the sense of simply not knowing something) but dishonesty. We can be hyper-sensitive to apparent dishonesty simply because we have seen so much of it. If I falsely accused you of something, again I apologize. I hope we can continue our conversation.
Not sure I got that. |
| Date: 2007/01/29 04:16:10, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||||
UD continues to use the creationist playbook (as if anyone cared anymore). Commenters are all a-twitter with a "new" idea:
(Gee, how so sure, idnet.com.au?)
(Why the scare-quotes, shaner74?). Prudence intervenes:
Can they really be unaware that Kent "What Would Jesus Declare?" Hovind is rather famous for making just such an empty offer of, coincidentally, $250K? |
| Date: 2007/01/31 15:43:15, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Dave has a new post up entitled:
Well duh, Dave, we know all about it already from OE. Me, I've been manufacturing the stuff by the gallon ever since I read Krazy Kazmer's peer-reviewed article. Wait, that's not it? Oh well, carry on then... |
| Date: 2007/02/01 08:09:26, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
At OverpoweringIgnorance Quizzlestick replies to a post by Patrick on "Pragmatic Naturalism":
(my bolding). Either the densest IDer around (note that she lapped up (!) Kazmer kompletely unkritikally) or we got a very clever loki here. |
| Date: 2007/02/01 09:28:01, Link 62.94.208.230 | ||||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||||
DaveScot is the loki-troll who out-trolls all other loki-trolls. He's actually Richard Dawkins in deep, deep cover. Shhhhh...... |
| Date: 2007/02/02 02:49:28, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
I worry that our casual use of the word "tard" might insult any actually retarded people that happen to read this forum. Like Sal Cordova, for instance. :D |
| Date: 2007/02/02 11:35:21, Link 62.94.208.230 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
I haven't read through all the posts here, but let me put my two cents' worth here - even if someone's made this point already. I don't want to get into a discussion of "who stepped out of line when," and whether it's nice to be rude to creationists. This thread makes it clear that we all have different opinions on this, and I don't think we're ever all going to agree on the acceptable level of snarkiness. But I don't think this is all really about whether we should be nicer to avocationist - nor is everyone worked up because they feel bad for her. I think people do feel bad for her - I do - but that's not why they're upset with each other here. I think it has more to do with respecting each other's feelings. Because of the nature of this forum, the conversations we start with other people are public - anyone can butt in if they want. The question is: should people feel that they have the right to butt into any conversation on this board? Or, if they do, should they observe a basic code of politeness - to each other, that is; at least to the extent of prefacing their remarks with "if I may add something here" or something like that. To get back to the pub analogy, it's often as if you're having a quiet conversation in the corner - with a stranger whose opinions you find interesting, but wrong (let's call that person "A") - when along comes someone (let's just call him/her "L") yelling at A "you lying f#ck, you dickhead" etc. It may be that L has a history going back some time with A; but, in real life, I think that L would not actually do this if A was busy talking to someone else. Frankly, I was annoyed this time because I was having a conversation with Heddle - and enjoying it - and in swept L, as he always does, yelling abuse at Heddle. I didn't appreciate it - and I thought it showed a fundamental lack of respect towards me as much as towards Heddle (who has probably come to expect this by now). Anyway, we all come here, in part, because we are fairly like-minded and enjoy each others' company. We should remember that before we do things that show basic disrespect for the people who are part of this community. |
| Date: 2007/09/06 10:48:02, Link 70.224.42.28 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
|
[Been away for a while, but nothing seems to have changed...] DLH (who he?) is very excited about the media attention ID is getting. Apparently, it's only a matter of time before ID ... um, does what exactly? Anyway, the Lebanon Daily News (that's Lebanon PA, just 50 miles from Dover, folks!) writes:
Golly, three cheers indeed for an editor with courage, as DLH says! Couple of tiny points, though. First, this isn't the editorial, but just some random nutjob writing to the editor. And for all his admiration of editorial courage, it's funny that DLH didn't have the cajones himself to quote the rest of the piece:
Nevertheless, Edit: Dammit, beaten to the punch! |
| Date: 2007/09/06 10:52:32, Link 70.224.42.28 |
| Author: Altabin |
| Away for a while - came back to find that AtBC is peppered with ?'s and Unicode cruft. I see that this has been a problem for a while - any solutions? |
| Date: 2007/09/06 11:04:36, Link 70.224.42.28 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
I want to know how it's going to deal with the "condom culture." |
| Date: 2007/09/06 12:41:34, Link 70.224.42.28 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Give Dr Rev Dr Dembski a break. At least he didn't begin his post with a self-referential: September 6, 2007: "MEDIA COVERAGE: Baylor, Robert Marks, and the Evolutionary Informatics Lab." The widely-read Uncommon Descent weblog surveys the recent coverage of this issue in the media. Though that would have upped the media feeding frenzy to eight articles (only half of which were from his own blog). |
| Date: 2007/09/06 12:53:52, Link 70.224.42.28 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
The imaginary numbers thread truly is the gift that just keeps giving. Charles Foljambe writes:
An argument of the order of: "I think I'm Napoleon. You say I'm not. Prove it." Jack Krebs attempts to help him out:
But really, this Foljambe chap has characterized ID just perfectly. No correction needed. |
| Date: 2007/09/06 12:59:31, Link 70.224.42.28 |
| Author: Altabin |
| The DLH who is posting on the front page of UD is David L Hagen. Is he new? |
| Date: 2007/09/06 20:33:58, Link 70.224.42.28 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
|
OK, so Rev Rev Dr Mr Dembski posts about how there has been much media interest in the Baylor affair - and more than half the articles hadn't been written by him. Some of the regulars get distracted for a moment by discussing, you know, evolution and stuff. Bill gets stern:
That's right, kIDs, just remember what this is all about: ![]() |
| Date: 2007/09/07 10:01:21, Link 129.74.228.29 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
I think Dembski is annoyed at the implication that he was denied tenure at Baylor. It's interesting what this reveals. In the post cited, he's not excusing Baylor; rather, he's saying that if Baylor's decision to pull the plug on the "lab" had anything to do with their past history with WAD, they would have played that card by now. Now, it's true that he wasn't denied tenure at Baylor. But he did leave under a huge shadow. To me it's astonishing that anyone who had left under such circumstances would imagine that they could return even to use the cafeteria, let alone take up a post-doc in a broom closet. But Dembski seems oblivious that there could be even any lingering ill-feeling towards him, or perhaps has convinced himself that past events were very different from what they actually were. Elsewhere he surmises that the president of Baylor will be punished for dismissing him from campus, just like former president Sloan was. In fact the political situation at Baylor was complicated; if anything Sloan's appointment of Dembski added to his opponents' case against him -- but even then, only to a small degree. There were much larger issues of governance and strategic planning that were at stake. In Dembski's mind, however, he was the victim of Sloan, who was then punished by an irate faculty and board of regents -- the exact opposite of what really occurred. Dembski, in other words, is not just living in a fantasy world, but is busy reconstructing his own past to conform with it. |
| Date: 2007/09/08 11:16:39, Link 70.224.42.28 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Recall that Semiotic007 had already been chastised by Bill for suggesting that he had been denied tenure at Baylor. So she writes back, all conciliatory:
She goes on to say that, after Baylor pulled the plug on EvIL, she wrote to Marks offering to be an unpaid research associate, on the condition that even if she finds results contrary to ID in her research, they will not be suppressed by the "Lab." Dembski urges her not to sever her connection with the lab, and assures her that:
Semiotic007, you seem like a nice lady. Run away. Very far away. (Let's not forget that, since Dembski started teaching there his own institution, the Southwestern Theological Seminary dismissed a woman for, er, being a woman. He wasn't conspicuous in the ensuing protest and media coverage). |
| Date: 2007/09/10 14:28:25, Link 129.74.226.13 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
|
I'm bewildered by the new tactics on UD. First, as someone's already noted, Dave admits:
Then Patrick weighs in:
But, but, I thought ID was not creationism. In fact, I thought it was not creationism. In my foolishness, I even persuaded myself that ID was not creationism at all. In fact, I even thought that Michael Behe and William Dembski had both said that "ID is not creationism." Clearly I was mistaken. (So what gives? Are they embracing their secret creationist selves?) |
| Date: 2007/09/11 09:46:40, Link 70.224.42.28 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Missed this before:
Very true, very true [fart]. |
| Date: 2007/09/12 19:28:38, Link 70.224.42.28 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
You forgot: Smooth 'n' fruity: ![]() |
| Date: 2007/09/16 20:11:16, Link 70.224.46.141 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Content and tone indistinguishable from a real Dembski post, plus mad Photoshop skillz. The only thing that tipped me off was that it seemed unlikely that Dembski could ever admit crossing any sort of line with his behavior - let along notpologize for it. He's really missing any faculty of self-reflection. Anyway, a tip o' my hat to you, RB! |
| Date: 2007/09/16 20:13:10, Link 70.224.46.141 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
I nearly peed myself. As the Avett Brothers put it: I once heard the worst thing A man could do is draw a hungry crowd... Bill's definitely in that place. |
| Date: 2007/09/17 09:04:27, Link 129.74.116.117 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
It does suggest that very complex things can be formed without the action of intelligence. |
| Date: 2007/09/17 09:51:31, Link 129.74.116.117 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Calling Dennis to order:
Note that Densey doesn't need a citation for her assertion, despite Mark Frank's pedantic (and bannable) fussiness about this. She is employing the argumentum ex curru urbano, the "argument from the street-car" which, if I recall my Aristotle correctly, is completely irrefutable. |
| Date: 2007/09/17 10:09:44, Link 129.74.116.117 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Are you questioning the wisdom of the common man? That's very elitist and sciency of you. |
| Date: 2007/09/18 13:57:19, Link 129.74.229.165 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
|
Over at UD, they (or rather, Densey) have just discovered Dawkins' infamous "long silence" in an interview that creationists made under false pretences. The comments have really brought out the bottom-feeders, who seem to be the only regulars left at UD. bornagain77 makes Troutmac (who's also there!) look like a genius:
<In broad Australian accent> "I don't know about you, kids, but to me that just sounds stoooooopid." |
| Date: 2007/09/19 14:44:13, Link 129.74.200.93 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
|
They're all a-dither at UD about the Expelled crew visiting the Baylor campus. One of the producers has written an op-ed claiming that the administration of Baylor has abandoned God. (Hold on a minute, I thought that ID had nothing to do with ... oh, never mind). DaveScot comments:
This strikes me as so inappropriate a comment that I can only thing DT is being sarcastic at WAD's expense. Dover wasn't the last word, because WAD refused to appear there. Nor was it the last word because Bill just got his ass handed to him by a roomful of students. Rereading it, I guess he means that the evilutionists won at Dover and everywhere else -- but that they're getting the last word with this shitty little film. Still, seems rather impolitic to remind WAD that he's a chickensh*t. |
| Date: 2007/09/21 14:42:10, Link 129.74.165.105 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
|
God, this thread is beginning to collapse under the weight of stupid. "Jerry," though an IDist, is asking his fellows for that most unlikely of things: intellectual honesty. Either dissociate themselves publicly from YECism, or admit that ID is a religious position (hence the outrage about the Baylor debacle) and stop whining about critics conflating ID and religion. This has already provoked DT to speculate whether there just might be something to young-earth creationism, after all, as others have noted. bornagain77 offers this trenchant philosophical analysis
Cut short, because this post goes up to 11, to which s/he later adds:
I think so too!!!!111!!one!thegoldensection!!! Janice, who identifies herself as a YEC, concludes a long and crazy post:
If you parse that closely (which, I warn you, may make you stupider), it says that ID is identical to Christianity -- since non-Christians must applaud anything that is to the detriment of ID. Maybe we are seeing some intellectual honesty after all. Even Patrick, after defending the "big-tent strategy" (what's a few billion years among friends? This is nothing more than a "personal divide" that ID has been able to heal), admits:
That is, ID is nothing but the criticisms of "Darwinism" that creationists all agree on. Nothing more to say. |
| Date: 2007/09/21 14:44:27, Link 129.74.165.105 |
| Author: Altabin |
| PS: someone wake me when the paradigm shift is over... |
| Date: 2007/09/21 14:54:54, Link 129.74.165.105 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
Densey comments on Ironsgate (whoring her own blog's post in the comments). She adds a snide little remark about Irons: "Irons, apparently, has a long history as an activist," linking to a profile of him. What could there be in that document that might attract her attention? Apart from bland professional details, the profile describes him as "an active civil rights and liberties lawyer," who was the "senior editor of the Harvard Civil Rights-Civil Liberties Law Review" and has recently written a book entitled Jim Crow's Children: The Broken Promise of the Brown Decision. It's kind of worrying that DO'L should offer that as red meat to the (non-existent) readers who visit her blog. BTW, what does WmAD mean when he said that Irons is on the DI payroll. And did anyone else get the impression that Dembski was hyperventilating the entire time he wrote that post? Or possibly masturbating. Maybe both. |
| Date: 2007/09/26 05:47:38, Link 70.224.46.141 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Feh. The Bears are 3-1 this season; the Irish are 0-4, without a win in sight. No one's rushing to be Notre Dame. (And Notre Dame just isn't rushing). A mournful Domer. |
| Date: 2007/09/26 09:57:49, Link 69.213.182.3 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
Faculty (Domer by profession, not education!) I attended the Mich. State game on Saturday. It was the first game I've watched through to the end this season - I usually crawl out from behind the couch some time around the end of the 1st quarter, and turn the TV off. It was excruciating to be compelled to watch the entire team fall apart, after a few plays in which they actually looked like they were playing football. The band was good, though. And I had a nice hotdog outside Bond Hall. Densely would freak out if she could visit the new (and quite extraordinary)science building. Each discipline in the Science Faculty designed a medallion for the atrium - one that would capture the essence of their discipline. Biology has a stylized DNA molecule in the center, and around the outside: "Nothing in Biology makes sense except in the light of evolution - Theodosius Dobzhansky." (See here). Just recently I showed a microbiologist from one of the Vatican universities around campus. He was kind of religious, which I'm not, but I guess that's to be expected. Absolutely scornful of ID, though, and clearly delighted and moved by the biology medallion. |
| Date: 2007/09/26 10:09:40, Link 69.213.182.3 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Lee Bowman praises the winning essay on "scientific literacy" at Seed magazine:
Unaccountably, unaccountably, he fails to quote the next paragraph of Martin's essay:
I'm sure he'll rectify this omission, which rather alters the intent of the essay. |
| Date: 2007/09/27 06:25:47, Link 70.224.46.141 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
That whole forum had some excellent, thought-provoking posts on it. If these are the standards of ID discourse, then count me in! |
| Date: 2007/09/27 06:31:54, Link 70.224.46.141 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
From ISCID:
I think sandygirl24 is Denyse. But I'm not sure if she's also involved with "Nice ass whore giving her head then have pussy licked." OK, enough spam jokes. There's just so little to say about UD. |
| Date: 2007/09/27 06:51:56, Link 70.224.46.141 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Matthew Tan just has to be one of this crew in disguise:
That's right. Music is irreducibly complex. You either have St Matthew's Passion, or you have some random farting noises. Clapping your hands, tapping your foot, whistling, humming - none of these counts. No one can be this stupid. I think heddle first drew our attention to "Matthew Tan." I suspect some Calvinist culture-jamming here. |
| Date: 2007/09/27 07:53:50, Link 70.224.46.141 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
Friday is traditionally the day on which Dembski ramps the craziness up a notch at UD. This is a good thing. That long Tues-Thurs stretch, in which nothing much of anything happens at UD beyond a normal level of tard - it can feel long. At least we can always count on something truly outrageous happening before the weekend. So, let's start a sweepstake: what will Dembski do next? Prize for the best answer: a dembski ( = a bottle of malt whiskey (not delivered)). My entry this week: Dembski will publish photographs of the Baylor trustees' children, along with maps of their routes home from school. "I urge everyone to approach these children respectfully, and politely but forcefully put the case for Robert Marks's academic freedom. If they have been so indoctrinated by Darwinist propaganda that they try to run away from you, I suggest that you urge them to take a ride in your car with you, so that you can discuss |
| Date: 2007/09/28 08:32:29, Link 70.224.46.141 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
|
Post a story about an anti-ID resolution in Europe, and it isn't long before the "H" word appears. The second comment, by bornagain77 (who else?):
Joseph is not far behind:
Duncan clearly doesn't have long to go at UD:
To which bornagain77 replies:
OK, Nazis again, and Social Darwinism. But how does abortion always slip into these discussions? It's as though they think the twentieth century invented abortion. I could show them recipes for abortifacients going back to antiquity. St Albertus Magnus devoted an entire book to means of procuring abortions, way back in the 13th century (ostensibly for expelling dead foetuses - but they could also be used without sin before the moment of "quickening" - something I like to remind some of my more hyper-Catholic friends). But it's hardly a secret that their critique of "Darwinism" is profoundly unhistorical.... |
| Date: 2007/09/28 10:46:02, Link 129.74.231.199 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
As far as I can tell, the freakout occurs after he's refused lunch at the Baylor cafeteria. We should see things developing from about 1 o'clock Texas time. If not, I'm going to feel like one of those Adventist prophets, the day after the forecasted date for the apocalypse. Maybe it's your fault. Your faith wasn't great enough. |
| Date: 2007/09/28 21:49:01, Link 70.224.46.141 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
johnnyb:
Translation: I am flunking out of community college. |
| Date: 2007/09/28 21:50:27, Link 70.224.46.141 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
ROFLMAO!!!1!!largestknownmersenneprime!!! |
| Date: 2007/10/01 19:15:57, Link 70.224.37.64 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
This would be an auspicious moment to admit that there is indeed evil, satanic atheist Darwinist conspiracy, plotting to keep ID out of science. I don't know about you chaps, but I was initiated shortly after I started graduate school. Mmmmm, roast baby.... |
| Date: 2007/10/01 21:02:39, Link 70.224.37.64 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
This, from DOL's eerily unpatronized blog, made me fnork:
That's got to be the first time that Tibetan Buddhists and Canadian Christians have shared a sentence... |
| Date: 2007/10/02 10:39:55, Link 70.224.37.64 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Wow, I don't think anyone predicted that... Admittedly, it begins weaselly - by quoting this letter from an unnamed "colleague from England" about the intemperate language of Paul Gross, Dembski means us to understand that he hasn't done anything different from the Darwinists (which is not true - I don't remember Gross publishing home phone numbers of Biola College administration). Nevertheless, his post contains some moments of real self-awareness:
I never thought I'd see Dembski make such a statement, but I applaud him for it. It takes real guts to say something like that in public. (All the more embarrassing for him because he's saying it to the UD sycophants, whom he had whipped up into a righteous rage on his behalf. This climb-down must have hurt). Let's go easy on him... |
| Date: 2007/10/04 14:17:12, Link 129.74.165.111 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
OK, so Sal quotemines the recently deceased, writing:
and, as others have pointed out, he is boldly upbraided by larrycranston:
Sal's reply is one for the ages (emphasis added):
Wow. I mean, wow. "You're right, there is nothing to suggest Michalski supported ID. That's why I had to butcher the quote; otherwise, it wouldn't have made my point." |
| Date: 2007/10/05 20:38:47, Link 70.224.38.51 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Whenever my peripheral vision picks up her blogname (in one of her blog-whoring posts) it registers as "mindf*ck". Kinda spooky, really. |
| Date: 2007/10/09 19:26:48, Link 70.224.38.51 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
You materialists don't seem to understand that those articles were posted so that they could be removed. |
| Date: 2007/10/09 19:39:27, Link 70.224.38.51 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
|
Billy's all excited about John West's book Darwin Day in America. It's a book with a trailer, so you just know it has a solid argument that can stand on its own merits. As I watched the slideshow of eugenics propaganda from the 20s and 30s, I thought to myself "It's a good thing that religious people from this period didn't have any appalling notions about race, or inflict injury on people different from themselves. Because then black people would really have been f*cked." My favorite quote from the book's blurb:
Yeah, scientisticism. It's responsible for all the mess we're in today. |
| Date: 2007/10/09 22:36:30, Link 70.224.38.51 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
TARD!
![]() |
| Date: 2007/10/10 18:59:35, Link 70.224.38.51 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
The ever dependable bornagain77:
![]() I refute him thus. |
| Date: 2007/10/11 10:59:54, Link 129.74.229.198 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Bob, just remember that they laughed at Copernicus too. Jerry is Copernicus. This is what a scientific revolution looks like. |
| Date: 2007/10/11 11:56:40, Link 129.74.229.56 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
No, remember that the guy is Polish. Jerzy. Jerzy Copernicus. |
| Date: 2007/10/12 07:32:31, Link 70.224.38.51 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
What, no wetsuit? |
| Date: 2007/10/12 10:02:37, Link 129.74.117.91 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Yeah, Wesley should archive the whole thread somewhere; it really demonstrates the naked stupidity (or stupidity in wetsuits and dildos, whichever you prefer) of the UD gang, from Dembski on down. It's important to keep your irony meter permanently disconnected when reading crap like this:
Unlike "A 'higher power' made it, but we can't tell you when, how, where, why or who." Or, more briefly "Godidit. Shut up." |
| Date: 2007/10/16 07:48:06, Link 70.224.38.51 | ||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||
Wow! I assure you that I haven't read the whole thing. I had to sort the condiments in the fridge by color and expiry date, and realphabetize my business card collection; so little time left to pore over batshit77's snappy posts. I only dipped in my tard-spoon, and came up with this (my emphasis):
That is, if you're over the age of reason and not of European descent, God (sorry, the "Most High Omniscient Being of Bright Brilliant Pure Light") is going to f*ck you up. Sometimes I think the Gnostics were right. If this cosmos really is in the hands of a deity, he's not the good guy... |
| Date: 2007/10/16 08:24:24, Link 70.224.38.51 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Great find! I like how it cuts out in mid-sentence, just as the speaker is about to explain how "irreducibly-complex" pathways can evolve by gene duplication etc. It's as if the little man at ARN suddenly realized what was going on. "Holy sh*t, close it down now!" But still posted it to Youtube with a cheesy "ID, the final frontier" intro. |
| Date: 2007/10/16 09:49:46, Link 70.224.38.51 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Fixed that for ya. |
| Date: 2007/10/16 18:00:39, Link 129.74.165.4 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
DARWINISM = HAWT SEXX!!1!:
Because, as we all know, the science nerds have always had the most active and varied sex lives. Innovations of possible creator they make me crazy. Intelligent design not religious in nature. Bacterial flagellum reminds me of natural moral law. Blecchh. |
| Date: 2007/10/17 21:49:37, Link 70.224.38.51 | ||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||
braindead77 clarifies:
Oh yes. But it seems to me that someone is using the word "information" a little loosely (to say nothing of "inherent," "ability," "its own accord," "solid inference" and "scientifically proven"). But this is what really puzzles me: if black people really did contain all of this "information," just because black "contains" the other colors - then that must mean that they would occasionally produce blue or red people, doesn't it? Or am I missing something? On a completely different subject: may I just say that I [heart] lotf, who is now my most-favored satanic creationist. Just savor this comment from Patrick:
That's money, that is. EDIT: for clarity |
| Date: 2007/10/18 09:53:56, Link 70.224.38.51 | ||||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||||
Banned for making bornagain77 look stupid! But really for being a Satanist (or at least playing one). Even after he had been assured that ID was religion neutral. Lets just recall how this began:
To which gpuccio replies, reassuringly:
And, although lotf wonders where all the references to Judaism, Islam and other religions are, russ emphasizes that "there is no catechism for this blog." This puts lotf's mind at rest:
I think lotf would be very welcome here (if he's not here already under another name...) |
| Date: 2007/10/18 12:39:12, Link 70.224.54.185 |
| Author: Altabin |
| Botkin must be carefully distinguished from Botnik, I guess... |
| Date: 2007/10/19 05:41:19, Link 70.224.54.185 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
I'm pretty sure it wasn't done on purpose. Near as I can see, it's a still from an ATM security camera. |
| Date: 2007/10/20 20:31:30, Link 70.224.54.185 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
And just for the h€ll of it, let's take a look at "evolution": ![]() My theory just ate your "theory" |
| Date: 2007/10/20 21:41:29, Link 70.224.54.185 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Done: ![]() (Blue is ... well, you know which is which. Note that in the bottom graph, the News Reference Volume of Intelligent Design is too small to register.) |
| Date: 2007/10/24 08:46:42, Link 70.224.54.185 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
This is fun! From another post: ha^te mur^ders in^nocent Then there's de^ath, and (inevitably), ad^ult. It's good to know that secure psychiatric units are keeping an eye on their patients' computer use. |
| Date: 2007/10/24 13:45:07, Link 129.74.117.2 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Isn't "non-denominational Protestantism" all but identical with fundagelical? |
| Date: 2007/10/24 15:02:36, Link 70.224.71.197 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Please, let us never forget the mushrooms:
|
| Date: 2007/10/26 08:55:29, Link 70.224.54.185 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Oh, oh, oh:
Sounds that they're a little desperate for content - four months away from the scheduled release date. |
| Date: 2007/10/26 15:45:07, Link 70.224.54.185 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Throw in a hot-tub and some Reddy-Wip and that's a winner! Even better if you could fit Kristine into it as well... |
| Date: 2007/10/28 20:35:57, Link 70.224.54.185 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Michaels7 has also read another paper on arXiv.org, which is now listed in the "Additional Descent" sidebar at UD:
As chance would have it, I actually met the lead author of this paper a few weeks ago. He's very religious -- a scientist at the Gregorian University in Rome, and the director of a couple of high-powered Vatican scientific think-tanks. I'm sure many here would find much to disagree with him. But in our conversation he was quite unrestrained in his contempt for Intelligent Design, and got all rhapsodic about evolution and natural selection (which, unsurprisingly, he sees as God's way of working creation through secondary causes -- much as Coyne, the Vatican astronomer expressed it). A theistic evolutionist, in other words -- for the ID gang, even worse than an atheist. But give them time, and they'll be selling it as a "stealth ID classic." Just like Gödel, Escher, Bach. |
| Date: 2007/10/29 09:38:53, Link 70.224.54.185 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Not to mention that, of all the ancient schools of philosophy, the Epicureans were renowned for living good, morally blameless lives, yet not being prigs about it. Even their philosophical opponents who rejected their criterion for happiness (pleasure) -- especially the Stoics -- had to admit, ruefully, that the Epicureans couldn't be touched for the way they actually led their lives. A hint: "pleasure" didn't mean shopping and f#cking. |
| Date: 2007/10/29 11:47:41, Link 129.74.200.14 | ||||||||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||||||||
Missed that in the original. Here's a few nice quotes from Epicurus's Principal Doctrines:
There's more wisdom and good advice there than in a stack of bibles. |
| Date: 2007/10/30 13:42:47, Link 129.74.87.202 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
My interest in UD is now pretty much limited to figuring out how batshit77's nanny filter works (consider it kind of design inference!). His latest post adds the word "bodied" (and, I'm willing to venture, its cognates: "body" and "bodies"). A prize of one bottle of scotch whiskey for the first person who figures out, on the basis of the prohibited words, just which secure federal institution ba77 calls home. |
| Date: 2007/10/30 14:02:03, Link 129.74.87.202 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Done! (Note that the whiskey will be issued under precisely the same conditions that Dembski sets). |
| Date: 2007/10/30 14:06:44, Link 129.74.87.202 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
Why does Batshit77 have to post through a nanny filter - and what are the (hospital?) authorities worried about? A prize of a notbottle of notscotch for the first convincing answer! So far, the words that bornagain77 cannot post without circum^venting the fil^ter are: body sex adult dominant/dominate strict models hate murder innocent Please add new discoveries to this thread! |
| Date: 2007/10/30 16:33:49, Link 129.74.108.165 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Jesus, everyone recalibrate their irony filters for Behe's latest (arguing that Miller adopts "Darwinism" for theological reasons, and is thus a
Let's not forget the endless bleating from UD and the DI that "Darwinism leads to Nazism," "ooh, look, Dawkins says that the universe is meaningless, which is a horrible thing to say, which means he doesn't love his children and likes fascism" and infinite other permutations of the is-ought fallacy... But, predictably, they just love it at UD. |
| Date: 2007/11/01 06:08:53, Link 70.224.54.185 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
You're not reading this carefully. Sure, the likelihood of a bacterium developing three new binding sites is low, via RM+NS. But Jesus could make them. Just like that. And if you're bad, he will. |
| Date: 2007/11/02 06:55:19, Link 72.255.44.62 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
Apparently the theory of relativity is non-materialistic. At least, according to Batshit77:
(Does this mean that photons are angels?) Note that in the Einsteinian quotemine-fest that makes up the rest of his comment, he draws extensively from that most reliable source, the Reader's Digest. It's so exciting to be living in the middle of a paradigm shift! |
| Date: 2007/11/02 07:00:27, Link 72.255.44.62 | ||
| Author: Altabin | ||
BTW, where the h&ll is Bill?
He's not going to be happy when he gets back and finds the mess they've made of UD. |
| Date: 2007/11/02 10:39:05, Link 72.255.44.62 |
| Author: Altabin |
|
Here: dr^ugs co^cktails |
| Date: 2007/11/04 20:54:27, Link 70.224.54.185 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
Let's not forget: ![]() Can we get a whole Uncommon Descent Combo? |
| Date: 2007/11/05 14:45:07, Link 129.74.171.54 | ||||
| Author: Altabin | ||||
OK, here's my response to Dave - not too long-winded, I hope. Look at this: ![]() This is a plate from Athanasius Kircher's work On light and shadow, a seventeenth-century work on optics and, more broadly, any kind of radiation. (Clipped from Paula Findlen's seminal article "Jokes of Nature and Jokes of Knowledge: The Playfulness of Scientific Discourse in Early Modern Europe"). Kircher reproduces here stones that have been shaped "by the effort of nature the painter" - so-called "figured stones" that, through the action of nature have taken on shapes that are meaningful to us. Here Kircher depicts an entire alphabet of stones; in the upper left-hand corner you see an entire cityscape revealed upon splitting a rock (this sort of figured stone was very popular in Renaissance and early-modern museums, particularly if the picture happened to resemble the city in which the museum was located). There is a huge, and rich modern literature out there about the place of these fortuitous patterns in medieval and early-modern science. In general, though, our predecessors were all agreed that such things were not the work of intelligence. They weren't crazy; they didn't imagine that Jesus, or some other disembodied telic entity was out there making little sculptures to amuse them. They explained these objects in a variety of ways. Some thought that they were simply accidents - but most people considered that a bit of a cop out. Others argued that since the planets strongly influenced the development of minerals in the ground, they could also shape them in ways meaningful to humans. After all, if a particular combination of planets could affect the destiny of Strasbourg, surely the same combination could make a stone look like Strasbourg. Others, finally, thought that God had set up nature to be overflowing with creativity - a kind of exuberance that exhibited itself through visual pun and experiment (the topic of Paula F.'s paper). Whatever the explanation, though, they were convinced that these were objects explicable within nature. They had not been shaped by supernatural forces, still less by human hands. Now take a look like this: ![]() This is an ancient cameo, carved in the 3rd century BC. It depicts the Hellenistic king Ptolemy II, and his sister and wife Arsinoe II. It is one of the great masterpieces of ancient crafts. When Albert the Great wrote his book On minerals in the 13th century, he described this very gem, then decorating a reliquary in Cologne (after passing through many owners, it is now in St Petersburg). What is crucial, though, is that he explained the cameo as a natural object. He went to considerable length to show how a combination of earthly "exhalations," flowing waters and planetary influence could have given rise to these patterns so similar to human figures. It was the same sort of thing as the other figured stones he discussed -- a natural object, needing a natural explanation. He did not seriously consider that it was made by a human being, since there was no known technology that could have produced such incredibly fine detailing on a tiny piece of stone. Albert was not stupid - quite the opposite. His false conclusion was an argument to the best explanation - because he knew of no human agent that could produce such a thing. Thus all of Dave's talk about recognizing that flints are designed objects i |