Joined: Oct. 2005
|Quote (IanBrown_101 @ July 05 2007,10:37)|
|Ok, firstly, the ivory tower thing was a little bit heated and seemed to imply I was having a go at you, I wasn't I was having a go near you, not the same thing.|
Secondly, YES I consider someone in the UK without adequate living standards is in poverty, even if they have shelter and heat, why the hell don't you? Do you REALLY think there's no poverty in the UK? Don't you consider the inability to provide an adequate standard of living compared to the UK expected standard to be poverty? If not, why not?
Thirdly, I didn't mean they DESERVE it, just that, since the UK is a far richer country they SHOULD deserve an adequate standard of living, and should EXPECT one, as opposed to Ethipoia, who deserve one but probably don't have one, and are less likely to expect one.
I don't think they got together and said "How many can we drive out today?" I think they just didn't CARE that they made so many unemployed. They felt what they did was the best for the country, and so they aimed for it. Thatchers use of the John Adams comment about people getting crushed in the wheels (paraphrasing, obviously) shows just how much they didn't care. If someone sees massive problems for a proposed action and DOES NOT CARE then they aim to do it, if only by collateral.
They got better for the rich, and worse for the poor. The fact you cannot accept this, and think that just because a large number of people suddenly had more cinemas and such like means the UK was A-OK is, to me, really, really REALLY disturbing. You only saw a small part of what was happening. If you are in a room where 100 people are having a party and 5 are being tortured you might be forgiven for thinking that pretty much is having a good time there and things are generally fine, but if you don't bother to look in the rest of the house and see the 400 being tortured before you claim "so I think the whole house is absolutely fine" then your opinions are tainted.
I never saw any of this first hand, but my family did and they've told me the good and bad that they saw. I've studied this and seen a fair amount of good, but also a whole lot of bad. Believe me, if you really look without simply stating "Nope, what I saw suggested it was sunshine and roses" then you'll see that away from the affluence, there was a whole lot of trouble.
Ok, forget the ivory tower thing. I'm not bleeding, it doesn't matter.
Yes I do think tht there is poverty in the UK. I would also like something to be done about it. But there is a need to decide what poverty actually is. I suspect (but don't know) that you would agree with this.
I don't. I do not see any way that you could eliminate poverty if you use those criteria. Why would anyone consider a person that has housing, heating, clothing, reasonable amounts of food, access to clean water, education and health services to be living in poverty? Now I recognise that some people in the UK do not have that and accept that those people are living in poverty and that is an outrage. Hell, I would be willing to pay more tax if it was actually used effectively to assist our citizens that actually do live in poverty.
I am sure you don't think that 3rd World people deserve to live in poverty. I do think that our high standards of living are partly responsible for a fair amount of the 3rd Worlds problems though.
I would agree that they didn't say, "How many can we drive out today?" I also agree that some of their policies increased unemployment. What I don't think is that all the woes where entirely avoidable had we only had a more caring government.
Things did get better for the rich. No surprise there, that is the way things tend to go (how would you go about preventing that?). The torture analogy is a tad harsh and I can only state things as I saw them. In my lifetime living standards have greatly improved for almost everyone in the UK. Almost everyone, there are some exceptions but I do not believe the % is very high at all.
I do not subscribe to "Nope, what I saw suggested it was sunshine and roses". Why do you think that? Maybe my communication skills are so poor I am giving you that impression. What "affluence" are you reffering to BTW? I am not certain but get the impression that you consider me to be rich. I am not. It is just that in my life I have seen the general living standards of ordinary people improve almost beyond measure, in this country.