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  Topic: Florida and Antievolution, A broad topic for news and comment< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,00:14   

Here's a thread for talk about Florida and antievolution there.

Florida Citizens for Science Petition Supporting the Proposed Science Standards. Sign on if you want to support the new standards, too.

Just got word that the Highlands County school board has declined to pass a resolution against the proposed science standards. Several other Florida county school boards have passed resolutions asking the state Department of Education to reject the proposed standards because of their inclusion of evolutionary science. In many of those other counties, there was no general advance notice. In Highlands County, though, the word was out ahead of time, and apparently many professors and instructors from institutes of higher education turned out and expressed their opposition to the antievolution resolution. One person spoke in favor of the resolution.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,10:18   

And you can give $$$$. :)

How does rejecting standards that include evolutionary science help to "'teach' the 'controversy'"?

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Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,11:45   

Can I ask the community here to take a few minutes and go sign the Florida Citizens for Science petition in support of the proposed new science standards? This is important. The Department of Education will make its decision on February 19th, and you need to give the FCS time to present it. Don't put it off. Do it now.

And also, if you make a comment, please do add it to the thread at the Panda's Thumb.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,11:04   

The lawyer with the group associated with Focus on the Family is on during the webcast now.

He's giving the "No, we don't want to teach Creationism" lie.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,11:15   

Yep.  They went there.

One of the yahoos in the crowd just brought up Hitler, and how evolution caused the Holocaust.

Oh lovely.  Now he's on about Stalin.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,11:53   

Heh heh.  Lady on now,

"Jesus!  Bible!  Prophesy!  Creation in Seven Days!  Evolution is not a fact, children will cheat on tests!"

It would be hilarious were it not so dangerous.

ACLU guy just got up.

Wesley is doing a much more thorough job, I'd suggest everyone interested head to the Austringer.

Edited by Lou FCD on Feb. 11 2008,12:53

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Bob O'H



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,13:02   

What is the Spanish for "cat"?

Le chat needs to know.

Bob

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Mr_Christopher



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,13:08   

I've said it before, I'll say it again, and many will not agree with me.

We should be going on the offensive.  Chellenging the IDiots in FL to public (or radio) round table discussions with titles like "The evidence for evolution vs the evidence for intelligent design" and let the fundies explain why they refuse to participate in such a round table discussion.  And yeah, chances are the fundies won't show which is telling in itself and would give our side a great opportunity to provde a intro to ToE.

Hook up with a university who'd host such public informational presentations.  Get a radio show to host it.  Instead of reacting to the nonsense we should be pro-actively educating and engaging the public.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,13:31   

I'm getting a crappy steam from the webcast here.

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"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
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J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,13:34   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 11 2008,13:02)
What is the Spanish for "cat"?

Le chat needs to know.

Bob

El Gato!

El Gato es muy LOL.

DeNada

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,13:43   

OMG FLORIDA IS FULL OF BEAUTS.

:angry:

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"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
snoeman



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,23:21   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 07 2008,11:45)
Can I ask the community here to take a few minutes and go sign the Florida Citizens for Science petition in support of the proposed new science standards? This is important. The Department of Education will make its decision on February 19th, and you need to give the FCS time to present it. Don't put it off. Do it now.

And also, if you make a comment, please do add it to the thread at the Panda's Thumb.

I signed the petition.  I generally don't post comments at PT, but here's what I said on the petition:

 
Quote
Adopt the standards.  The BOE should disregard the ignorant calls for ID creationism, classic creationism, "balanced treatment", "teaching the controversy", "strengths and weaknesses" or any other euphemism.  Evolutionary theory is some of the most well-supported science we have, and it would be a shame to enable dilution of teaching it because of its perceived threat to the faith of certain people.  We need good science standards and quality science education in all 50 states.

  
Bob O'H



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2008,00:25   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 11 2008,13:34)
Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 11 2008,13:02)
What is the Spanish for "cat"?

Le chat needs to know.

Bob

El Gato!

Ah, thanks.  But the cat wasn't happy when I told him that (where did he learn his French?).  Now I just have to get the cream out, and he scampers off to hide.

Bob

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2008,17:59   

The webcast video is now available online as downloadable files.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Jason Spaceman



Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:03   

A teacher's perspective on the science standards

Quote
By ROBIN BROWN
Special to Florida Baptist Witness

Published February 14, 2008

Editor's note: This statement was given at a public hearing on the proposed science standards for Florida held in Jacksonville last month.

Good afternoon, my name is Robin Brown. I am a recently retired teacher from Polk County. I taught for 31 years with the last 15 years being middle school science. I have traveled here today because I feel this topic is one of the most important topics in education and with the over 200,000 ratings of the new science standards, many people in Florida feel the same.

The Florida Science Curriculum Framework states that certain principles supporting the vision for science education should include the evaluation of new ideas and alternative ways of knowing. Students should be encouraged to make well-reasoned decisions and to use the processes of science successfully that include honesty, skepticism, creativity, curiosity, tolerance, open-mindedness and sharing, recognizing the diversity of ideas and acceptance of different views, according to the Framework.

One benchmark in the new proposed science standards stipulates that students "Explain how evolution is demonstrated by the fossil record, extinction, comparative anatomy, comparative embryolgy, biogeography, molecular biology and observed evolutionary change."

Most scientists once said that the fossil record shows that evolution occurred gradually. But today, scientists deny that gradual change can be seen in the fossil record. A few scientists now even question whether fossils necessarily show that evolution itself occurred. Harvard scientist Stephen Jay Gould says the fossil record does not show evolution occurring gradually. "The fossil record with its abrupt transitions," he writes, "offers no support for gradual change." Gould calls these repeated unfilled gaps, "the trade secret of paleontology."

There is a process in the field of science that any discussion of a theory include both "pro" and "con." This practice is observed throughout the scientific community except when the theory of evolution is involved. Whenever evolution is discussed, only the arguments "for" evolution are considered. Scientific evidence "against" evolution is consistently censored.

Sometimes the evolutionary process is questioned, such as gradualism vs. punctuated equilibrium, but all such discussions never question the evolutionary assumption.

Dr. Karl Popper, the world's leading philosopher in science states, "Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research program." Sir Fred Hoyle said, "The chance that higher life forms might have emerged through the evolutionary process is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the material therein."

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



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Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:12   

You can see Robin Brown perform in the video from Monday's meeting, too. She is visible through most of the proceedings in the upper left when the forward camera is on the podium. She was frowning and shaking her head when the pro-science people spoke.

Brown offered recommendations for the board to adopt supplemental texts: "Of Pandas and People", Parker and Gish from the ICR, and "Dr." Richard Bliss, also of the ICR, and infamous for the degree mill doctorate from the University of Sarasota. Straight-up "creation science" texts and one re-labeled but discredited "creation science" text.

Brown presents most of what I despise about the antievolution movement.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:18   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 13 2008,12:12)
Brown presents most of what I despise about the antievolution movement.

Fortunately, she does it very publicly, for all to see.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:33   

Is this her?

http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/8408.article

ETA: she cites Popper's critique of evolution, but not his retraction "I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection; and I am glad to have an opportunity to make a recantation" (Dialectica 32:344-346).
"

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Erasmus, FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:36   

pssst  Hey, Robin

Stephen Jay Gould is no longer with us.

thought you might wanna know.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:45   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Feb. 13 2008,11:36)
pssst  Hey, Robin

Stephen Jay Gould is no longer with us.

thought you might wanna know.

She's bang up to date.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2008,06:26   

St. Pete Times poll

St. Pete Times Demonstrates that Framing Works

PZ disagrees with me

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Feb. 16 2008,08:29

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Jason Spaceman



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2008,23:04   

A compromise in the works?

Quote
A new option for science standards: Adding the phrase the "scientific theory of" before evolution

posted by LesliePostal on Feb 15, 2008 4:58:12 PM

There's a new option (maybe a compromise?) in the works when it comes to Florida's controversial science standards.

The Florida Department of Education is working up a second option for the State Board of Education to consider that would insert the phrase "the scientific theory of" before the word evolution and in other "appropriate places throughout the standards," according to Tom Butler, department spokesman.

The phrase  would also appear in front of Big Bang and and plate tectonics, for example.

This is in response to "the input we've received from the public," he said.

Butler said department officials ran this idea past some of the scientists who helped write the new standards because they wanted to be sure they would remain "scientifically accurate." He said these scientists gave the option their nod of approval.

The new option would not alter the descriptions of evolution as the "fundamental concept underlying all biology" nor as a concept that is "supported by multiple forms of scientific evidence," he said.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2008,08:28   

Quote

Butler said department officials ran this idea past some of the scientists who helped write the new standards because they wanted to be sure they would remain "scientifically accurate." He said these scientists gave the option their nod of approval.


It is necessarily the property of a well-crafted con job that it sound reasonable on first hearing. Congratulations to the anti-science faction on crafting their ploy well.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Annyday



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2008,10:36   

The scientists are okay with it because it doesn't actually change the meaning, and scientists are concerned mostly with what something actually means. The creationists are okay with it because it backs up their "just a theory!!" talking point. The real question is if any school boards or teachers will actually seize upon the word "theory" as evidence that they can ignore the standards.

Any odds?

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"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
Reciprocating Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2008,12:30   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Feb. 13 2008,12:36)
pssst  Hey, Robin

Stephen Jay Gould is no longer with us.

thought you might wanna know.

But his departure was quite abrupt, not at all gradual.

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

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Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2008,15:43   

Luskin writes an op-ed

Read the description and link, then come back here to comment.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2008,16:21   

The hypocrisy is breathtaking - fabricate a debate regarding evolution (not to say specifics aren't debated, but for the general concept, at K12 level?!) whilst protecting ID from any sort of dialogue (from actually scientists, not school children).

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Steverino



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2008,17:11   

The more Luskin write tardbabble this, the more dead on the Flying Spaghetti Monster parody becomes.

Casey, why not just STFU and do the science.  Come back when you have some to show.

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- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

   
Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2008,20:45   

Oh, he mentions Expelled! Good!
Quote
Imagine you are a scientist with fundamental doubts about Darwinism and you see the top science organization in the USA asserting that your views don't exist.

"Imagine all the pee-puhll-hul-hul,
questionin' Darwini-ism-mmm-mmm-mmm
You may say I'm a failure,
But I'm not the only one." ;)

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2008,07:54   

The Board meeting is on now.

Brandon Haught is also live-blogging over at the Florida Citizens for Science site.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Steverino



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2008,08:12   

I have the audio, but the video is frozen.  Anyone else???

Got it!!!....had to stop and start.

--------------
- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2008,08:33   

It stops and starts.  Did the same thing last week.

I suspect it's the huge server load.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Steverino



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2008,08:36   

More Gould taken out of context!.....God, I hate these people...they are just so intellectually dishonest!

"Darwinian Evolution is in a state of collapse...."

Asshat!

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- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2008,08:39   

I had to give up.  The feed is stuttering so bad it's driving me nuts now.

Well, that and the disingenuous asshats.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Steverino



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2008,08:57   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 19 2008,08:39)
I had to give up.  The feed is stuttering so bad it's driving me nuts now.

Well, that and the disingenuous asshats.

"Academic Freedom..."...I love how they try to assume the moral high ground thru the naming of there hidden agenda act.

Kind of like the "Patriot Act".  Implications are, if you are not for the act, you are not Patriotic.

Same with the "Academic Freedom" working.  If you are against, you are against freedoms.

Joe Jerkoff on now (with the ugliest American tie I have ever seen) speaking about what he knows nothing about, but apparently, is an authority on macro-evolution.

--------------
- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2008,11:08   

They voted for the "option standards".  As I said at the FCfS blog, it was a dog and pony show to stick the word theory in there so that the creationists can continue to deliberately conflate the concept of Scientific Theory with the layman’s concept of “Wild guess”.

It’s dishonest from start to finish.

Board member Martinez fought it to the end, but this was a foregone conclusion.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2008,11:54   

The responsible teachers will make up for the standards, and the antievolutionist teachers will take it as a means to disparage anything related to evolution.

With evolution in the standards, and funding tied to performance on tests thanks to "No Child Left Behind", and test contents determined by standards, teachers *will* have to teach evolutionary science to their students. There will still be the split between honest, responsible teaching of evolution, and the "academic freedom" version that sneaks in antievolution and hides incompetence behind "fairness" rhetoric.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2008,21:28   

Science Now article quotes Eugenie Scott:

Quote
Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education in Oakland, California, sees the revisions as a "cosmetic" change that do not dilute the standards in any way. "What's important is that this allows teachers in Florida to present evolution to students as a strong scientific view that is based on evidence," she says, noting that adding the word "scientific" to every theory in the standards prevents "evolution from being singled out as an unusually suspect idea."

Despite the new standards, Scott says, the real challenge will be to ensure that teachers across the state are able to teach evolution without fearing reprisal from conservative school board officials. "The question is," she asks, "what happens inside the classroom after the teacher closes the door?"


They also mention Mr. Martinez's objection, but only in passing.  I was a little disappointed by that, he deserves a lot of credit for standing up and putting it right on the table.

Edited by Lou FCD on Feb. 19 2008,22:28

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2008,21:32   

Also, in the Science Shots section:

Quote
No echo. Bats are famous for their ability to echolocate, sending out high-pitched clicks that allow them to maneuver in the dark and hunt insects on the wing. But did they evolve this talent before or after they became the first mammals to take to the skies? A new fossil, first reported last fall at the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology’s annual meeting and appearing in the 14 February issue of Nature, settles the issue. The animal had fully flappable wings, but it lacked the enlarged cochlea--the hearing structure in the inner ear--found in echolocating bats, suggesting that flight came first. Features such as the presence of claws on digits make Onychonycteris finneyi the most primitive bat known. At 52 million years old, it predates the previous record holder, Icaronycteris index. (Image: Royal Ontario Museum)


Funny and timely, given that one of the creobot liars was standing up there talking about how there are 'no transitionals between rats and bats' (or however it was he phrased it).

Whoops.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Albatrossity2



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2008,14:21   

From the South Florida Sun-Sentinel yesterday  
Quote
Then there is Oscar Howard, the superintendent of schools in Taylor County, who drove nine hours to a hearing last month at Everglades High in Miramar to state his opposition to evolution.

"I think they could be teaching a lie," he said. "There's not a place on me where they took the tail off."

If this guy is a superintendent of schools, it's gonna take a couple of generations of good science education to overcome this level of ignorance...

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2008,15:06   

The insistence of those who know nothing of science to opine on "what science is" never fails to amaze me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IlHgbOWj4o

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2008,15:16   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 20 2008,13:21)
Quote
[...]

"I think they could be teaching a lie," he said. "There's not a place on me where they took the tail off."

Well, then he's simply not among the few percentage of people (I forget what the exact percentage is) for which tail removal did occur.

Henry

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2008,15:24   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 20 2008,16:06)
The insistence of those who know nothing of science to opine on "what science is" never fails to amaze me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IlHgbOWj4o

Hey, anyone know which one is DAJ?

ETA:  I think he might be the croquet guy...

Edited by Lou FCD on Feb. 20 2008,16:24

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10756
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2008,15:30   

This is one of those cats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Pyke


the main, "talky" one.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2008,15:38   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 20 2008,14:21)
From the South Florida Sun-Sentinel yesterday    
Quote
Then there is Oscar Howard, the superintendent of schools in Taylor County, who drove nine hours to a hearing last month at Everglades High in Miramar to state his opposition to evolution.

"I think they could be teaching a lie," he said. "There's not a place on me where they took the tail off."

If this guy is a superintendent of schools, it's gonna take a couple of generations of good science education to overcome this level of ignorance...

Methinks he doth protest too much..

click on the link, DO NOT BE DRINKING COFFEE OR COLA

http://www.dimaggio.org/Eye-Openers/tails_in_humans.htm

Sorry I could not post the cute little pictures... after the last "upgrade" at work, our system will not let me do it.

Bastards.

I am sure I recognize the guy from FL though.  Or was it KS?

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10756
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2008,15:41   

JDog, if its' "Vista" then clicking on the bar and selecting "temporarily allow scripts" will work for you.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2008,19:15   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 20 2008,15:41)
JDog, if its' "Vista" then clicking on the bar and selecting "temporarily allow scripts" will work for you.

Rich - Our IT Drone outlawed IE and changed everyone in the offie to Firefox, and disabled our abilities to save images as jpegs.  

Now that I am posting from   home a secret location, The Fortress Of Solitude, here is that picture of the FL guys:



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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2008,14:27   

Florida House Speaker Mario Rubio Makes a List

It's my list of invidious comparisons, but , hey, that's something.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JohnW



Posts: 2767
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2008,15:38   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 22 2008,12:27)
Florida House Speaker Mario Rubio Makes a List

It's my list of invidious comparisons, but , hey, that's something.

Beautiful.

Quote
“Of course, I’m not equating the evolution people with Fidel Castro,” he quickly added, while noting that undermining the family and the church were key means the Communist Party used to gain control in Cuba equating the evolution people with Fidel Castro.


Makes a change from Hitler and Stalin, I suppose.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2008,17:36   

Quote
And for me, personally, I don’t want a school system that teaches kids that what they’re learning at home is wrong.


I sure hope Rubio doesn’t read the Social Studies sections of Florida’s teaching standards. I’m sure he’d be outraged at how they foster tolerance among various racial and ethnic groups since there are parents who specifically teach their children otherwise.  

These people are so stupid it makes my eyes burn.

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Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,09:49   

Florida: Luskin Lets Cat Out of Bag

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Mar. 13 2008,09:49

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
midwifetoad



Posts: 3992
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,10:08   

While everyone is focused on Florida, Texas and Oklahoma seem to be gutting science education from another direction. I found this link on ERV, and as  newbie here, I don't know where best to post it.

http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_067125346.html



Quote
The bill requires public schools to guarantee students the right to express their religious viewpoints in a public forum, in class, in homework and in other ways without being penalized. If a student’s religious beliefs were in conflict with scientific theory, and the student chose to express those beliefs rather than explain the theory in response to an exam question, the student’s incorrect response would be deemed satisfactory, according to this bill.

...

Even simple, factual information such as the age of the earth (4.65 billion years) would be subject to the student’s belief, and if the student answered 6,000 years based on his or her religious belief, the school would have to credit it as correct.


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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,11:00   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 13 2008,10:08)
While everyone is focused on Florida, Texas and Oklahoma seem to be gutting science education from another direction. I found this link on ERV, and as  newbie here, I don't know where best to post it.

http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_067125346.html



 
Quote
The bill requires public schools to guarantee students the right to express their religious viewpoints in a public forum, in class, in homework and in other ways without being penalized. If a student’s religious beliefs were in conflict with scientific theory, and the student chose to express those beliefs rather than explain the theory in response to an exam question, the student’s incorrect response would be deemed satisfactory, according to this bill.

...

Even simple, factual information such as the age of the earth (4.65 billion years) would be subject to the student’s belief, and if the student answered 6,000 years based on his or her religious belief, the school would have to credit it as correct.

Midwifetoad - There was a lot of talk / posting about this yesterday on ScienceBlog - See this link:

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....bil.php


I am not a moderator, but generally, anything which  does not  have its own thread can get posted to The Bathroom Wall.

HTH :)

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,11:43   

John West spins, spins, spins

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Jason Spaceman



Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2008,20:59   

Evolution criticism bill weakened

Quote
TALLAHASSEE --A bill to ensure teachers can scientifically criticize evolution was made less controversial Wednesday when it was re-written to all but bar the controversial theory of Intelligent Design in science classrooms.

Originally, the bill encouraged teachers to present the ''full range'' of ''scientific information'' about evolution, but it didn't define what that information is.

And that lead to the real possibility that teachers could profess the Intelligent Design, which a 2005 federal court banned from Pennsylvania science classrooms because it was a religious theory in that it posits an intelligent cause -- God to most adherents -- designed biological organisms.

To quell critics who thought that she was trying to sneak religion in the classroom, Sen. Ronda Storms, a Valrico Republican, decided to define scientific information as ``germane current facts, data, and peer-reviewed research specific to the topic of chemical and biological evolution as prescribed in Florida's Science Standards.''

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2008,23:13   

I don't see it as "weakened". The DI plays word games, and the new words don't do a thing to exclude the arguments from "intelligent design" creationism. The DI has always claimed those arguments have the sort of backing that the new wording specifies.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 28 2008,11:48   

The Florida House just passed Alan Hays' antievolution bill.

Where Florida goes is now up to the Senate. I'd suggest getting in touch pronto.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 29 2008,08:44   

Ammo for speaking with Florida legislators: the FCS/ACLU press conference video.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JohnW



Posts: 2767
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 29 2008,11:56   

Tard on NPR this morning.

Quote
The bill passed by a wide margin in Florida's House on Monday. It requires teachers to provide their students with "a thorough presentation and scientific critical analysis" of the theory of evolution.

What that analysis would be isn't clear. But proponents say it would have to be scientific, not religious.


NPR dropped the ball on this one, unfortunately.  A bland "give both sides equal time" approach, which (partly because they didn't talk to any actual scientists) gave the impression that both sides had a valid point.

Still, vintage tard here:
Quote
Representative Hays said, he believed the man behind the theory of evolution, Charles Darwin, would not object to allowing teachers and their students to critically analyze his ideas.

Because the study of evolutionary biology begins and ends with Darwin.  No-one's done anything since then.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Reginald Beasley



Posts: 31
Joined: April 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 30 2008,09:25   

Looks like the Creation Scientists are moving onto another state - one that realllllly needs a good waste of taxpayer money what with all the economic success they're having lately:

Disco launches attack on intelligence in Michigan

Warning, that link will take you to the DI website, but is there any legal recourse that the states themselves can take?  Michigan has about as many jobs as potatoes in a salt field right now and the last thing they need is to expend resources fighting the people trying to cram Jesus down their kids' throats.  Like after the DI fails miserably once, can they be kept from ever having anything to do with the state's politics again?

  
Henry J



Posts: 4565
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 30 2008,22:20   

Quote
Like after the DI fails miserably once, can they be kept from ever having anything to do with the state's politics again?  


My guess: only if they can be held legally responsible for the money they cost people. Trouble is, that may require that legal action against them be taken by the people they took in the first place - and those are most likely the people who most want them to succeed.

Henry

  
creeky belly



Posts: 205
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2008,20:31   

Inaction, FTW!

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/article/14149
 
Quote
Hotly debated evolution bills that critics said would inject religious doctrine into public schools in the guise of science also died a quiet death Friday on the final day of the legislative session.

....

Meanwhile, House and Senate supporters, mostly Republicans, were unable to resolve their dispute over two versions of the evolution legislation before the close of the session.

The Senate favored a bill (SB 2692) that would have prohibited school officials from punishing teachers who used "scientific information'' to challenge evolution.

A House bill (HB 1483) would have gone farther, not just allowing such challenges but requiring that schools teach "critical analysis'' of evolution.

The Senate version was based on model legislation advocated by the Discovery Institute, a Seattle think tank that supports research on intelligent design. That theory holds that some features of the universe and living things can be explained by an "intelligent cause.''

Some intelligent design advocates claim it's scientific in nature but a federal judge in Pennsylvania ruled that it is a religious concept.

The Discovery Institute says no state has yet adopted its legislation but five have included critical analysis requirements in their school science standards.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2008,00:28   

It's been a long haul, and things are definitely not over, but at least we managed to dodge the bullet in Florida this time.

I'm glad I was able to have a hand in giving the DI its latest defeat, but the exact way things went could easily have gone in their favor. That was altogether too close for comfort.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Advocatus Diaboli



Posts: 198
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2008,02:25   

In the aftermath John West gets all patriotic:

More importantly, we still live in America, and although Darwinists are doing their best to shut down and intimidate anyone who raises questions about Neo-Darwinism, we still have free speech, and they can't prevent people from hearing about the debate in the public arena, no matter how hard they try.


Can you hear the Star-Spangled Banner? Can you see that flag flowing behind West?

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I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

"I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot

"Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova

"UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

   
khan



Posts: 1525
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2008,18:35   



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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2008,17:46   

Exactly what's wrong with Florida?  Is there some weird drug in the water or something?

PZ calls Poe's Law on the whole state.

Quoted in his post:

 
Quote
   Substitute teacher Jim Piculas does a 30-second magic trick where a toothpick disappears then reappears.

   But after performing it in front of a classroom at Rushe Middle School in Land 'O Lakes, Piculas said his job did a disappearing act of its own.

   "I get a call the middle of the day from head of supervisor of substitute teachers.? He says, 'Jim, we have a huge issue, you can't take any more assignments you need to come in right away,'" he said.

   When Piculas went in,?he learned his little magic trick cast a spell and went much farther than he'd hoped.

   "I said, 'Well Pat, can you explain this to me?'? 'You've been accused of wizardry,' [he said]. Wizardry?" he asked.


(emphasis and well deserved comic sans by me)

That's right.  Expelled for 'wizardry'.  It's no damned wonder they have such issues with science.  The seventeenth century has yet to reach Florida.



Edited by Lou FCD on May 05 2008,18:52

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2008,08:44   

There is a long, but interesting (and infuriating, in some respects) article in today's NY Times about teaching evolution in Florida high schools.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
SoonerintheBluegrass



Posts: 39
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,16:14   

A friend e-mailed me that article, and while it is infuriating, I would buy David Campbell several rounds of his drink of choice on principle alone.  And the last line of the article actually gave me cause for hope.

Well worth a read, to those who haven't.

--------------
"And heaven will smell like the airport
But I may not get there to prove it
So let's not waste our time thinking how that ain't fair."

Neko Case

  
JohnW



Posts: 2767
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,16:36   

Quote (SoonerintheBluegrass @ Aug. 26 2008,14:14)
A friend e-mailed me that article, and while it is infuriating, I would buy David Campbell several rounds of his drink of choice on principle alone.  And the last line of the article actually gave me cause for hope.

Well worth a read, to those who haven't.

What you said, SITB.  Buy him one for me.

Quote
In a stormy public comment session, Mr. Campbell defended his fellow writers [of the revised state science standards - JW] against complaints that they had not included alternative explanations for life’s diversity, like intelligent design.

His attempt at humor came with an edge:

“We also failed to include astrology, alchemy and the concept of the moon being made of green cheese,” he said. “Because those aren’t science, either.”


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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,17:08   

Actually, I might be over in Jacksonville again in the next few weeks. If so I'll look him up and buy him a beer.

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,17:42   

Quote (SoonerintheBluegrass @ Aug. 26 2008,16:14)
A friend e-mailed me that article, and while it is infuriating, I would buy David Campbell several rounds of his drink of choice on principle alone.  And the last line of the article actually gave me cause for hope.

Well worth a read, to those who haven't.

A good read indeed, and don't forget about the video in that link. When you see that teacher read those student thoughts...wow. But, I like to add something to what the Florida Department of Education sad: not just teach evolution, but properly teach evolution. I had evolution education in high-school, but it really came short and I noticed a lot of over-simplification wich can easely (and it did) lead to missconceptions about evolution.

  
SoonerintheBluegrass



Posts: 39
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 27 2008,12:55   

I remember my 10th grade bio teacher practically spitting the word evolution out any time he had to say it.  And also him saying that not everyone believes in it-- with a definite bit of seeming disdain for those who did-- and watch this here film to get an idea.

The film was some creo bullshit, of course.  Funny, it was short on actual science.  Shocking, I  know.  Even in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma (home of the famous Rhema Bible school-- barf) in 1986-- when I was still a Christian, at least by default-- I noticed the creo-stuff was seriously lacking in anything resembling a rigorous approach to the subject matter.  

With the actual biology we were taught, there were always difficult processes to explain/comprehend, and y'know, actual data and stuff.  With the film, it was just warm and fuzzy BS-- "Life is speshul and stuff, and the creator has a plan, etc., etc."

--------------
"And heaven will smell like the airport
But I may not get there to prove it
So let's not waste our time thinking how that ain't fair."

Neko Case

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 27 2008,14:41   

Even though I live in the middle of the Dutch Bible Belt, it was far from that bad here. Although my evolution education failed, I could see that my teacher knew a lot more about the subject but didn't have the time to explain it more thoroughly. When I asked if I could do my final school project (some large project you have to do here if you want to get your high-school diploma) about the history of intelligent design or evolution vs ID, she snickered and told me that if I wanted to do my project about biology I did have to do actual science ;) I ended up doing it about the late-Republican Roman Army.

  
SoonerintheBluegrass



Posts: 39
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,01:37   

Well, I was a history major in college, so I would have loved to do that project, or any project really, on Rome.  

But knowing what I know now, I'd love to have done my Senior English paper (HS) on why ID is not science.  Soooo many resources, what with the interwebs and all.  We didn't have that back in those days, and instead I chose something horrifically stupid and embarrassing piece of fluff to do my paper on.  I've got a cousin who's getting ready to graduate from my tiny high school Alma Mater up here in semi-God crazy Eastern KY, and I'd love to try and persuade him to do his Sr. English paper on that.  

PS For a look at what life and school, etc. is like in my neck of the woods-- or one county over, anyway (I'm from Johnson county, the two kids on the show are from Floyd)-- check out the three part series from Frontline called "Country Boys."  I live in Lexington, now, but come back here often.

--------------
"And heaven will smell like the airport
But I may not get there to prove it
So let's not waste our time thinking how that ain't fair."

Neko Case

  
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