Line Numbered Transcripts Index - P667-699
1 A (Continuing) six definitions. Page 11 is
2 evolution, and there are also six definitions.
3 Q How do they compare to the definitions that appear
4 in Act 590?
5 A Well, except for the change of a word or two, they
6 appear to be identical.
7 Q What did you do with this information after you
8 received it?
9 A Well, after I received it, I looked through the
10 information, I studied it for some time. At, oh, I don't
11 know, maybe a week or two after that, the school board has
12 an education committee, and of course, they were aware
13 that Act 590 had been passed at that time and they wanted
14 an update on that.
15 And I went to the school board education committee and I
16 brought this material with me, and I expressed some
17 concern that if this were the manner in which we were to
18 implement Act 590, that I had some very severe
19 reservations about it. I didn't feel that it was at all
20 appropriate for use in the science classes.
21 MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, I would move admission of
22 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 128.
23 THE COURT: It will be received.
24 Q Mr. Glasgow, will you refer to that, please, sir,
25 and tell the Court what your objections were to that
1 Q (Continuing) presentation or that two model
2 classroom approach?
3 A Well, my first objection-
4 THE COURT: What page are you on?
5 THE WITNESS: I'm looking at page 4. It's not
6 numbered sequentially all the way through.
7 THE COURT: Okay. I've got that page.
8 A At the top of that page it says that the two models
9 should be explained as alternative and mutually
10 exclusive. "Either of the data support random mechanistic
11 processes, no creator, or the data supports non-random
12 intelligent design or a creator." I found that extremely
14 Q Are there any other science courses in the Little
15 Rock School District that even mention a creator?
16 A No.
17 Q Will you turn to page 6 and tell the Court whether
18 there is anything there that you have previously
20 A Yes. I might mention that the pages prior to that
21 are discussing the two model approach, which is the basic
22 gist of the entire document. But at the bottom of page 6,
23 the last sentence, "Each individual should then prepare a
24 paper of at least five hundred words giving their personal
1 Q How does giving personal views on a scientific
2 concept fit into the scheme of science education which
3 applies to—
4 A It has no place in the scheme of science.
5 THE COURT: Let me be sure I understand this, Mr.
6 Cearley. Is he suggesting that a student may be taught
7 that there is a creator or there is not, and that they
8 have to then give a paper stating their personal views on
9 whether or not there is a creator or not?
10 THE WITNESS: That's my understanding.
11 Q Move on through that, if you will, Mr. Glasgow, and
12 let me call your attention particularly to what is
13 labeled, it's about five or six pages from the back on an
14 unnumbered page, the label being "Likert Preference
16 A Yes, I have that.
17 Q Did you have any comment about that to the
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q Will you tell the court what that is, please?
21 A Yes. First of all, a Likert Preference Scale is a
22 series of statements in which you put an X on the blank
23 next to the statement that you feel comes closest to your
24 own ideas, and you mark only one X on this sheet. And it
25 has a series of eleven statements.
1 A (Continuing)
2 Statement number five is that evolution occurred—
3 THE COURT: Excuse me. What page are you referring
5 MR. CEARLEY: It's an unnumbered page, your Honor,
6 that from the back is page 7.
7 THE COURT: Is it at the Pre and Post test?
8 THE WITNESS: No, sir. It's eight pages from the
9 back. I think it's immediately before the Pre-Post test.
10 MR. CEARLEY: It's labeled Likert Preference Scale.
11 THE COURT: Likert Preference Scale?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
13 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing)
14 Q To what language are you referring on that page,
15 Mr. Glasgow?
16 A Number 5. The statement made is that, "Evolution
17 occurred with the help of God." Number 10 is that,
18 "Creation is a fact that has been proven by scientific
19 studies." Number 11 is that, "Creation is a fact because
20 God has revealed it to us."
21 Keep in mind this is a series of statements that the
22 students are supposed to respond which one, "Which
23 statement do you feel comes closest to your ideas?"
24 Q Are there other choices of that sort presented in
25 the pre and post test for biology students?
1 A Yes, I would say that there are. Your Honor, on
2 the very next page, which is the pre and post test page,
3 at the bottom of that page, part C, number 4, is the
4 statement, one of several choices to choose from, I might
5 add, "Life is the result of a creator's design."
6 Q Is there another statement of that sort on page 4,
7 Mr. Glasgow, of that text?
8 A Yes. Under letter T, number 2, the question is,
9 "Which one of these creation concepts seems most doubtful
10 to you?" And number 2 is "A god of creation specially
11 designed all life on this planet."
12 Q Now, Mr. Glasgow, is this kind of presentation a
13 part of any science course in the Little Rock District now?
14 A No, it's certainly not.
15 Q What effect do you think, as science coordinator
16 supervisor, presentation of this kind of material would
17 have on science education in Little Rock?
18 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, I don't think there's been
19 a showing that Mr. Glasgow would ever, in his professional
20 opinion, institute anything such as this. And during his
21 deposition he advised me that he would never recommend
22 anything to anybody that had religious references. And I
23 think that the plaintiffs are building a straw man and
24 then very thoroughly kicking it.
25 And I don't think there's any showing—
1 THE COURT: Is Doctor Bliss going to be a witness
2 in this case?
3 MR. CEARLEY: No, sir. But the plaintiffs' proof
4 intends to establish that there are no other sources for
5 this information other than these institutes.
6 THE COURT: Did Doctor Bliss actually hold this
8 THE WITNESS: As I mentioned earlier, I did not
9 attend, but yes, that was my understanding.
10 THE COURT: Did anybody attend?
11 MR. KAPLAN: One of the witnesses attended.
12 MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, we will also have a
13 deposition to offer into the record that indicates that
14 the Fort Smith School District, in response to a request
15 from its superintendent to prepare teachers to teach
16 creation science, wrote to this same organization and
17 received back material similar, if not identical, to these
18 materials, in response to the fact that there is no other
19 place to get materials.
20 MR. CHILDS: Well, your Honor, I think in Mr.
21 Glasgow's deposition he indicated that it would be
22 possible, as hard as it might be to believe, that the
23 Little Rock School District people could actually develop
24 their own materials. And I think that the plaintiffs are
25 attempting to prove to the negative.
1 MR. CHILDS: (Continuing)
2 They are trying to prove that in the whole universe
3 there is no possible way that this material can be
4 developed and it's impossible.
5 MR. CEARLEY: That's what our testimony will be,
6 your Honor.
7 THE COURT: What's your objection? I understand
8 you're making an argument, but do you have a legal
9 objection to the evidence being legally inadmissible in
10 some way?
11 MR. CHILDS: Yes, your Honor. I'm saying that this
12 information, until there has been a showing that what Mr.
13 Glasgow has been testifying about is going to be
14 instituted in the Little Rock schools, that it's premature
15 and it is irrelevant. And unless there is a showing that
16 this is the only material that can be incorporated in the
17 curriculum, it is also irrelevant.
18 THE COURT: Okay. That objection is overruled.
19 MR. CEARLEY: May I move on, your Honor?
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing)
22 Q My question, Mr. Glasgow, was what effect teaching
23 pursuant to this kind of model would have on science
24 education in the Little Rock District?
25 A I think it would be extremely damaging to science
1 A (Continuing) education in the Little Rock School
3 Q Can you implement — Let me rephrase that. How
4 would you, as science supervisor, implement the
5 requirements of Act 590 to give balanced treatment to
6 creation science?
7 A I don't know. I don't think I can implement the
8 provision of Act 590 to give balanced treatment.
9 Q For what reasons? Can you do it without teaching
10 religion or without religious references?
11 A No. You see, there are religious references in the
12 materials that are available, to my knowledge. I would
13 object very strenuously to including religion. Of course,
14 that wouldn't be allowed under any law that currently
15 exists that I know of. And that's the only thing that's
16 available, to my knowledge.
17 Q Do you know whether there are materials available
18 of a scientific nature that would be acceptable to you
19 that would support creation science?
20 A I haven't examined all of the scientific materials
21 that are available, but I have found none whatsoever that
22 would be suitable.
23 Q Would teaching creation science, Mr. Glasgow, have
24 any differing effect on students in the primary grades as
25 opposed to junior high as opposed to high school?
1 A In my opinion, it would.
2 Q Would you tell the Court how and why?
3 A I think at the primary level students are very
4 trusting of their teachers. In fact, many primary
5 students accidently, a slip of the tongue, I guess, call
6 the teacher mom or daddy. And that they think the teacher
7 is the authority in the classroom.
8 And when you present something like balanced treatment
9 as far as Act 590 is concerned, I think the teacher is put
10 in the standpoint of not really being able to present what
11 is, what I would consider, science. Or they're really not
12 able to say, this is the way or that's the way. They just
13 have to throw it out there. And for students this young,
14 just to throw it out there for them, in my opinion, would
15 cause them to be insecure.
16 Secondly, even students at the primary level watch TV
17 and they look at encyclopedias and other things such as
18 this, and I think that looking at these sources of
19 information, they would certainly have been aware at some
20 time or other that most scientists think that dinosaurs
21 lived millions of years ago.
22 And if the teacher is required to say something
23 different than that, and if the teacher is not able to say
24 when they ask, "Well, which is it? Why are you saying
25 this and that and the TV show that I saw and the
1 A (Continuing) encyclopedia that I read said that
2 dinosaurs are millions of years old and you won't tell me?"
I think it's damaging to the security of the student,
4 and I think it lowers the students' opinion of the
5 teacher. I think it causes great difficulty for the
6 teacher in a situation like that.
7 Q How do elementary school students or primary grade
8 students relate to the concept of time?
9 A Well, time is a skill which is developed or a skill
10 in which development begins at that level. In fact, there
11 is a very conscious attempt on the part of the school to
12 develop concepts of time and space and distance and things
13 of this sort. So in answer to that, they do not have a
14 good concept of time and space.
15 Throughout the primary years and even in the
16 intermediate schools, these are things that are tried to,
17 that teachers try to deal with.
18 Q Have you dealt with that in any workshop fashion
19 for the primary grades?
20 A Well, we have as far as teachers are concerned. We
21 have an elementary science mini-course. By mini-course, I
22 mean a short course lasting three hours, in this case, for
23 primary teachers, that allows them to present the concept
24 of geological time to students.
25 And in this workshop for teachers, one activity that we
1 A (Continuing) undertake is the use of a string to
2 indicate geological time.
3 Q In what grade do you do this, Mr. Glasgow?
4 A I can't say for sure. Second grade, I believe.
5 Second or third, right at that level.
6 Q Go ahead.
7 A Two students get up at opposite ends of the room and
8 they are holding a string that is stretched across the
9 room. One student represents the beginning of the earth.
10 Other students are placed along that string in accordance
11 to the, like the first appearance of plants on earth, the
12 first appearance of animals, whatever, the first
13 appearance of the species, amphibians or reptiles,
14 et cetera, and the first appearance of man.
15 And I might indicate that man is located at the opposite
16 end from the beginning of the earth. There is just a
17 short distance between the appearance of man on earth and
18 the present.
19 This gives the student an idea of geological time, in
20 that of all the geological time that scientists and
21 geologists recognize, the appearance of man is just a very
22 small part at the opposite end.
23 Q Are these students who are involved in that
24 demonstration are seven years old, eight years old?
25 A Basically, yes. About that age.
1 Q Would that require a balanced presentation under
2 Act 590?
3 A I think definitely that it would.
4 Q How would you do that?
5 A Well, other than getting a short string maybe a
6 fraction of an inch long—
7 Q If you had to do that, Mr. Glasgow, how would you
8 try to do it?
9 A I couldn't do it.
10 Q Would there be a differing effect on students at
11 the junior high school level?
12 A In my opinion, there certainly would be. Junior
13 high students teenagers, are sort of rebellious by
14 nature. And I think they would go to almost any end —
15 some of them would, not all — some of them would go to
16 almost any end to catch the teacher in telling a falsehood
17 of some sort.
18 And I think that if you had to implement Act 590 in the
19 room, there would certainly be ample opportunity for
20 students to try to catch the teacher doing wrong. And
21 when they caught the teacher doing wrong, the teacher, in
22 my opinion, wouldn't even have the option of explaining,
23 well, this or that. It's just out there and, as I
24 understand it, you lay it out and the student choose, more
25 or less.
1 A (Continuing) I think the students in this
2 sort of a circus atmosphere would lose respect for the
3 teacher, the teacher would lose respect for himself or
4 herself, and it would be very degrading and very damaging
5 to the science classes.
6 Q And would your thoughts differ on high school
7 students, say, in an advanced biology course?
8 A I think we have fairly sophisticated students at
9 the twelfth grade level in advanced biology. Many of
10 these students go off to the major universities throughout
11 the country. I think that they could see through this
12 attempt to try to give legitimacy to two things that in
13 the scientific community aren't equally legitimate. In
14 fact, one has no legitimacy at all.
15 And I think that they would just, you know, think,
16 `Well, teacher doesn't know what they're talking about. I
17 don't buy that.' And perhaps because of that attitude,
18 they might not buy into other things that might be
19 presented during that course.
20 Q Does the subject of religion ever come up in
21 biology classes?
22 A Well, I can't answer that for sure. I would say
23 that in the context of presenting religion as a integral
24 part or, indeed, any part of a science course, no.
25 I would say, also, that since Act 590 has been in the
1 A (Continuing) news, I'm sure that almost all of our
2 biology teachers in the district have informed the
3 students as to what Act 590 is and what it's all about
4 so that they could keep up with it on the news, et cetera.
5 Q What is the educational purpose as you see it in
6 teaching creation science under Act 590?
7 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, I really don't think that
8 would be in this particular witness' area of expertise.
9 It would be pure speculation, and I would object to that
10 very much.
11 THE COURT: It's overruled.
12 A I do not think there would be an educational
13 purpose at all. In fact, it would be damaging as far as
14 education is concerned.
15 Q What is the situation within the Little Rock School
16 District right now with regard to its ability to hire
17 qualified science teachers?
18 A Well, oddly enough, the supply of teachers in the
19 nation as a whole and certainly in Arkansas is such that
20 usually you have quite a few to select from. But in the
21 areas of science and math, there is still a shortage of
22 teachers in the state of Arkansas, and we have a great
23 deal of difficulty in getting qualified teachers in those
25 Q Do primary grade science teachers have a solid
1 Q (Continuing) science background?
2 A No, they do not, unfortunately.
3 Q Do you perceive any effect on the district's
4 ability to hire science teachers by implementation of Act
6 A There is no question in my mind that it would
7 greatly hinder the district's effort to hire science
9 Q Finally, Mr. Glasgow, can you tell the Court, if
10 you know, what you will do or if you have any plans to
11 implement Act 590?
12 A Do I have any present plans? The answer is
13 certainly no. Do I have any future plans? I don't know.
14 I can't see any way that I can do it. I don't know how I
15 can do it. I can't formulate plans if I don't know how.
16 It's rather difficult to answer that question.
17 MR. CEARLEY: No further questions.
18 THE COURT: Let me ask you a couple of questions
19 dealing with the definition of sections. In section 4
20 (a), I assume you've given this some thought and read what
21 little material there is, but how do you propose to
22 explain the `sudden creation of the universe' unless you
23 have reference to the creator, or divine creation? Do you
24 know of any way? Is there anything in the literature
1 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I might mention regarding
2 all these definitions, I grew up in Nashville, Arkansas,
3 in a Baptist church, a very, you might classify it a
4 fundamentalist religion. The first time I came across any
5 of these particular ideas, as such, was in my Sunday
6 School class.
7 THE COURT: I appreciate that, but I'm trying to
8 figure out if there is any way you've thought of to
9 accommodate some practical questions that I can imagine
10 will come from the students about, for instance, the
11 worldwide flood. How are you going to suggest to the
12 teachers that they respond to those questions?
13 THE WITNESS: I can't suggest. There is no
14 scientific evidence that I have ever heard of that would
15 indicate that there was a worldwide flood. I would have
16 extreme difficulty in thinking or imagining how water
17 could cover the entire earth, all the tall mountains,
18 et cetera all over the earth at one time.
19 I don't know— I can't think of any way. I know of no
20 materials that could be used. I couldn't even suggest to
21 the teachers how they could give balanced treatment to
22 that without bringing in religion.
23 THE COURT: What is your interpretation of
24 `relatively recent inception of the earth and living
Page is missing.
1 MR. CHILDS: I anticipate it will take considerably
2 beyond five o'clock.
3 THE COURT: Well, at the rate the government pays me,
4 I just have to work longer than this.
6 BY MR. CHILDS:
7 Q Mr. Glasgow, have you had an opportunity to read
8 through your deposition?
9 A Yes, I have.
10 Q Are there any changes that you want to make in that
11 deposition, or have you made any changes in your
13 A Any substantial changes. I think some of the
14 sentence structure with commas here and there, I didn't
15 make that sort of change.
16 Q Do you remember that you provided me with Exhibit
17 17 at your deposition?
18 A I assume. I don't know what that exhibit is.
19 Q Which relates to the list materials.
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. Do you remember that there was a three page
22 abstract on top of those materials?
23 A May I find those materials? I think they're still
25 Yes, I recall that.
1 Q Okay. What was the exhibit that Mr. Cearley put
2 into evidence of the Bliss materials?
3 A That was called the Two Model Approach.
4 MR. CHILDS: May I approach, your Honor?
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 Q I want to provide you with a copy that they
7 provided to Judge Overton of Plaintiffs' Exhibit 128 and
8 ask you if there is any difference between Plaintiffs'
9 Exhibit 128 and the exhibit that you provided at your
10 deposition, which was Defendants' Exhibit 17?
11 A You'll have to give me a moment to look. As I
12 said, these pages aren't numbered—
13 THE COURT: Do you have anything particular in mind?
14 MR. CHILDS: Yes, your Honor. It's a three page
15 abstract that was a Ph.D. thesis that was attached to the—
16 THE COURT: Do you mean Doctor Bliss?
17 MR. CHILDS: Yes, your Honor. Which was not
18 included within Plaintiffs' Exhibit 128, I believe.
19 Q Is that correct?
20 A I think it is. I didn't see that.
21 Q What does the abstract of Doctor Bliss' Ph.D.
22 thesis indicate?
23 A I haven't looked at it in some time. Do you want
24 me to read it over and summarize, or what? Is there some
25 part you want me to—
1 Q Well, we took your deposition on December 2nd.
2 A Yes.
3 Q You saw it at that time, is that correct?
4 A No, sir. The three page abstract?
5 Q Yes, sir.
6 A I don't recall seeing it, no.
7 Q Do you recall—
8 A I have seen it before. It was with this material
9 when I originally received it. But this material has been
10 sorted through and the pages are not numbered and it's not
11 stapled together.
12 But I do recall seeing it when he gave it to me.
13 Q Do you have any present recollection of what that
14 abstract indicates?
15 A No, I don't.
16 Q Would you take a moment to read it?
17 A Yes, I will.
18 MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, I wish, for the record,
19 anyway, interpose an objection, if Mr. Childs intends to
20 question Doctor Bliss' opinions, on the grounds that we
21 have offered and will continue to offer a number of
22 publications from the Institute of Creation Research as
23 being the only materials available with which to teach
24 creation science.
25 The abstract that Mr. Childs is looking at presents, I
1 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing) think, results of a Ph.D.
2 thesis or something of that sort that Doctor Bliss was
3 involved in, and relates to the applicancy of the two
4 model approach as a teaching tool.
5 And I just wish to note that I think that it is entirely
6 irrelevant; that being a matter of his opinion only and
7 not authored to anyone as materials toward teaching under
8 a two model approach.
9 THE COURT: Well, if Doctor Bliss doesn't come
10 testify, I don't care much what the abstract says about
11 his opinions. I won't give any weight to those.
12 Q What does the abstract indicate?
13 A It indicates to me that he evidently undertook a
14 study — you said it was his thesis or dissertation or
15 whatever — to assess differences in concept, development
16 and principle learning between students studying the
17 origin of life from a two model approach compared to those
18 using only a single model approach.
19 Q Does he indicate that the students that were
20 subjected or exposed to a two model approach showed
21 significant improvement in concept development and
22 cognitive skills compared to those studying evolution only?
23 A That's what's indicated on page 3.
24 Q Was a secondary spin-off that he described seem to
25 show that the students taught in the two model fashion
1 Q (Continuing) would be more critical and willing to
2 change ideas as new data came to the scene?
3 A That's what he demonstrates—
4 THE COURT: Maybe my response to his objection
5 wasn't very clear, but if Doctor Bliss doesn't come and
6 describe how he arrived at these conclusions, I don't care
7 what the conclusions. They are meaningless to me. It's
8 just completely hearsay, not evidence.
9 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, I think that ordinarily it
10 would be, but this man is testifying as a curriculum
11 development expert, and if these are the kinds of
12 materials that he would ordinarily rely on, I think that
13 we can get in through this witness.
14 THE WITNESS: May I interject? Is It appropriate?
15 THE COURT: It's fine with me. We will just turn
16 this into an open forum, so go ahead.
17 THE WITNESS: I might say, this is simply an
18 abstract. It presents none of his research.
19 THE COURT: I understand that, and that's the
20 reason why it's meaningless to me. I'm not giving any
21 weight to it. And I'm just suggesting that maybe if you
22 just want to put it into the record for some purpose, you
23 don't need to read it to me because I'm not going to give
24 any weight to it unless Doctor Bliss comes here to testify.
25 MR. CHILDS: What's Defendants' next number? I
1 MR. CHILDS: (Continuing) would ask that this be marked
2 a Defendant's Exhibit Number 3 and ask that it be admitted
3 in the record.
4 THE COURT: Yes, sir. We'll put it in the record,
5 with that qualification.
6 MR. CHILDS: (Continuing)
7 Q Have you seen any other material which would
8 indicate that a two model approach helps children learn?
9 A No.
10 Q Have you seen anything to the contrary?
11 A No.
12 Q Do you have any explanation of how these three
13 pages would be in the exhibit that you produced at your
14 deposition and they would not be in the exhibit to be put
15 in the evidence by the plaintiffs?
16 A No.
17 Q What is the basis of your conclusion that
18 `balanced' means `equal'?
19 A I don't believe I said that `balanced means `equal'.
20 I said `balanced' means equal emphasis or equal legitimacy.
21 Q And what does that mean?
22 A Well, I think I said at the beginning, I don't
23 really understand what it means. But because I am a
24 working practitioner in the area of education, and this is
25 going to affect me in a matter of just a few months, I've
1 A (Continuing) had to assume something, although the
2 grounds upon which my assumption is made are almost
3 nonexistent. I just grabbed something out of the air.
4 That's what my assumption is.
5 Q Do you interpret `balanced' to require that equal
6 amounts of time be spent?
7 A I don't think equal amounts of time. I think equal
8 emphasis and equal legitimacy. You don't exactly give
9 them equal amounts of time. I don't view that as a
10 problem, that particular statement.
11 Q Do you interpret `balanced' to mean that a
12 professional school teacher could not express their
13 professional opinion as to the merits or demerits of
14 either model?
15 A I might preface that by saying, as I've said a
16 couple of times before, that I really don't understand
17 what it means. Because I have to implement this, if
18 nothing's done, next September. I had to assume some
19 things. And yes, I would assume that under my operational
20 definition that I've given to it that this would not be
22 Q Is that what you read into the Act, or is that what
23 the Act actually says? Well, let me rephrase the
24 question. Do you see anything in Act 590 which
25 specifically says that a professional school teacher
1 Q (Continuing) cannot offer their professional
2 judgment on either of these two models?
3 A No, I don't see anything in the Act.
4 Q Do you still hold to the belief that the reason that
5 you think that `balanced' means `equal' is because of what
6 Doctor Bliss told you?
7 A Of course, I make judgments based upon all past
8 knowledge, whether conscious or not. I assume that would
9 possibly be a factor, yes.
10 Q That was one of the things you told me at your
11 deposition, was that the reason that you thought
12 `balanced' meant `equal' was because of your meeting with
13 Doctor Bliss.
14 Do you recall that?
15 A No, I don't.
16 THE COURT: I don't think he has necessarily denied
17 it. I just think he said he doesn't recall it.
18 Q Are you denying that you said that?
19 A No.
20 Q Wouldn't the legislature have made it clear if that
21 was their intent?
22 MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, I can't think of any way
23 that question is permissible. That's why we're here.
24 Q Let me ask another question, then.
25 What is the current practice in the Little Rock School
1 Q (Continuing) District as to science teachers
2 rendering their personal opinion, excuse me, their
3 professional opinion about the subject matter that they
5 A Would you restate the first part of that? What is
6 the practice?
7 Q What is the current practice in the classroom in the
8 Little Rock School District as to whether or not science
9 teachers can give their professional opinion about the
10 subject matter of what they are teaching?
11 A I don't know that there is any common practice. I
12 can't imagine too many instances that teachers would need
13 to give a professional opinion on something they're
15 Q I'm not sure that I understand you, Mr. Glasgow.
16 A I think that in things that we teach in science, I
17 think teachers realize that not all scientists hold to all
18 the same theories or things of that sort; that there are
19 disagreements. But I can't recall any classroom that I've
20 ever been in where the teacher had to make a professional
21 opinion about something that was being treated in that
22 class as science.
23 Q Are you telling me that the materials that are
24 presented in the public science schoolrooms does not have
25 any kind of element to it which would cause differences of
1 Q (Continuing) opinion?
2 A I think there might be differences of opinion. But
3 I can't recall of any class that I've ever been in - I
4 may be wrong, but I just don't recall any class that I've
5 been in where the teacher had to give a professional
6 opinion that `this is whatever' and that `this is not' or
7 anything of that sort.
8 I think they present the material. I think they might
9 say that `the majority of scientists believe this; other
10 scientists might believe this, others might believe
11 that.' I don't think they give a professional opinion.
12 I, as a professional scientist, which, in fact, they are
13 not; they are science educators. But I, as a professional
14 educator, `deem this science to be more appropriate or
15 more valid than this science,' just for example.
16 I can't recall that there was ever the necessity for
18 Q As an educator, is it your responsibility to judge
19 information as to whether it is scientifically,
20 technically correct or not?
21 A I can view that question from a couple of different
22 viewpoints. Can you restate it in a different manner?
23 I'm not exactly sure—
24 Q Do you consider yourself a scientist or as an
1 A I consider myself an educator.
2 Q As an educator, is it your responsibility to judge
3 information as to whether it is scientifically,
4 technically correct or not?
5 A I'm not sure that I would agree that it would be my
6 responsibility to determine whether it was technically
7 correct or whatever. It's my responsibility as an
8 educator to accept information that comes from the realm
9 of science, the scientific community. And that which does
10 not come from that area, it's the scientists' job to
11 debate the technical merits of the data that is presented.
12 Q Would it be safe to state that you accept as true
13 what is accepted as true in the scientific community?
14 A No, sir, that wouldn't be a correct statement. I
15 accept as science what comes from the scientific
16 community. I don't accept it as true. I don't think a
17 scientist would, either.
18 Q Well, are you teaching falsehoods?
19 A No, sir. I think it has been presented before,
20 science is not a matter of true and false or right and
22 Q Do you rely upon the scientific community,
23 scientific publication, professional groups of scientists,
24 for your information?
25 A Yes.
1 Q Do you question, as a scientist, that information?
2 A I'm not a scientist, I'm an educator, and it's not
3 my responsibility to question the information. I'm a
4 science teacher or science educator; I teach science.
5 The scientists, as I said before, debate the merits of
6 the information.
7 Q And you do not?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q How much do you know about John Thomas Scopes?
10 THE COURT: Could you narrow the question down a
11 little bit?
12 Q What do you know about John Thomas Scopes' attitude
13 about education in the classroom?
14 A Well, I think that perhaps your original statement
15 didn't need to be narrowed, because I know very little at
17 In fact, I'd say nothing. I wouldn't be comfortable in
18 saying anything about his philosophy in the classroom.
19 Q Well, I've got a book, and there is a statement
20 about that that I'd like to present.
21 MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, I recognize the flair that
22 this line of questioning presents, but I don't think it's
23 a proper line of questioning, unless he wants to ask Mr.
24 Glasgow if he recognizes Mr. Scopes as an expert in the
25 area of education or something of that sort.
1 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing)
2 1 think it's an improper question and I object to it.
3 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, if the objection is to
5 THE COURT: To save time, just go ahead and ask him
6 about it.
7 Q Were you in court earlier when Doctor Morowitz—
8 A Read the same thing, I believe. Yes.
9 THE COURT: Is that what you were going to ask him?
10 MR. CHILDS: Yes, sir.
11 THE WITNESS: "Education, you know, means—"
12 THE COURT: You don't need to read that. We all
13 heard it.
14 MR. CHILDS: Continuing)
15 Q Do you subscribe to Mr. Scopes' theory of education?
16 A I've indicated already, I don't know what his theory
17 or philosophy of education is.
18 Q Well, do you believe in teaching every aspect of
19 every problem or theory?
20 A No.
21 Q Do you believe that if you limit a teacher to
22 teaching only one side of everything, this country will
23 eventually have only one thought and be only one
25 A No.
1 Q Do you think that education should be a broadening
2 and advancing experience for your students?
3 A I think I could generally subscribe to that.
4 Q I just want to make sure that I understand what
5 you're saying. And if I misstate what you said, you
6 correct me.
7 As I understand it, your position is that high school
8 science classroom teachers and junior high classroom
9 science teachers should pass along, without question, what
10 is accepted within the scientific community. Is that an
11 accurate or inaccurate characterization of your testimony?
12 A I think that's inaccurate.
13 Q Would you please tell me specifically how it's
15 A I think that students have a right to question
16 anything in their own mind. But students at this level do
17 not have the professional backgrounds or the expertise or
18 whatever to make judgments regarding the validity of
19 anything in the area of science.
20 In fact I, as a person who has, oh, I don't know, maybe
21 a hundred some-odd hours in science, most of the things,
22 the data that is generated in science, I don't have the
23 background and I'm not able to make judgements as to
24 whether it's right or wrong. It takes someone with a
25 great deal of technical expertise and someone that has
1 A (Continuing) worked in that area for a great length
2 of time.
3 Certainly if I can't, students aren't able to make
4 that. But in the sense that they can question, if they
5 want to question, that's all right. I don't think that's
6 appropriate for a student. Well, I don't say that they
7 can't say it, but if a student says, `teacher, I don't
8 agree with that particular theory', they can say that if
9 they want to, but I don't think it's appropriate for the
10 teacher to go into any sort of a detailed discussion as to
11 the merits of that particular thing, because I don't think
12 either the teacher or the students has the skills, the
13 capability to make those judgments.
14 Q Let me restate my characterization of your
15 testimony, which would be, do you think that classroom
16 teachers should pass along to their students what is
17 accepted within the scientific community because neither
18 the teachers nor the students have the ability to
19 distinguish between good science and bad science?
20 A That's basically correct.
21 Q Did I misstate it in any way?
22 A Well, I think there could possibly be exceptions.
23 I'm not saying that that's true a hundred percent of the
24 time. There might be some areas that they could make
25 judgments on, I don't know. But basically that would be
1 A (Continuing) true.
2 I think it's the duty of science teachers to teach
3 science. We don't formulate the science, we simply teach
5 Q Do you remember I asked you a hypothetical about
6 Albert Einstein at your deposition?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q My hypothetical was, let us say that he appeared at
9 the New York Legislature at the time that he was ready to
10 publish his materials on the principle of relativity, and
11 he advised the New York Legislature that he had a
12 revelation, and that that revelation was that E=MC2, and
13 that he wanted to require the New York Legislature to pass
14 a law to teach his theory of relativity. Do you remember
15 that hypothetical?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And I asked you what would have been the scientific
18 community's reaction. Do you remember your response to
20 A I assume my response is basically the same. I don't
21 remember exactly what I said at that time. I don't think
22 the scientific community would think very highly of that
23 at all.
24 Q I would like for you to read your response on page
25 28, line 14 through 17.