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The Critic's Resource on AntiEvolution

Line Numbered Transcripts Index - P634-666


1 Q You further state that as to some of the questions

2 of the ordering of life, quote, "Biologists have been—"

3 THE COURT: Would you tell me what page?

4 MR. WILLIAMS: Certainly. Page 710.

5 Q "That biologists have been proceeding in this

6 manner for more than a century, making inferences about

7 organic programs by peering through a glass darkly at

8 their translated products. More work with the same

9 methods may never yield satisfactory answers. After all,

10 a century of concentrated effort has failed to find them."

11 A I don't know the content of that quotation.

12 MR. ENNIS: Excuse me. I haven't found that on

13 page 170.

14 MR. WILLIAMS: (Indicating) Let me show you.

15 MR. ENNIS: Your Honor, do you mind if I present

16 the entire book to the witness?


18 A Could I read the sentences that come after that?

19 Q First of all, those are your words I previously

20 read, are they not?

21 A Yes. But on 711 is the continuation.

22 Q If you'd like to see it, I'd be glad for you to.

23 A Yes. What I said, the question here is not the

24 origin of life, but the interrelationships of the various

25 phyla of animals, of organisms in general.


1 A (Continuing)

2 It's been a persistent problem in biology for two

3 hundred years, that although many schemes have been

4 proposed, there is no satisfactory resolution.

5 I argue in the chapter that we have been unable to

6 resolve them because the evidence of morphology is

7 inadequate; there just isn't enough of it. And then I go

8 on to say, with the possibility of doing sequencing with

9 DNA, we may be able to get firm answers.

10 As I said, every century has been— See, more work with

11 the same methods may never yield satisfactory answers.

12 After all, centuries of concentrated efforts have failed

13 to find them. And then I point out there are now new

14 methods that will, I hope, resolve them.

15 It's a hard problem, about the origin of life.

16 Q Did you write the summary of these chapters that

17 you wrote, as well?

18 A The ones called "Coding?" Yes.

19 Q Now, where it says "Summary" at the end of the

20 chapter, after the "Coding".

21 A What page are you on?

22 Q We can take any chapter, but we can look at 711.

23 A Yes.

24 Q The first sentence of the summary states, quote,

25 Life arose naturally from chemical constituents of the


1 Q (Continuing) earth's original atmosphere and

2 ocean, close quote.

3 And you earlier stated that after a century of work on

4 the subject you were discussing in this chapter, there are

5 no satisfactory answers.

6 A No.

7 Q But yet you have given an answer, have you not?

8 A No. The century of work is on a different

9 question, the interrelationships of the phyla of animals,

10 how are mollusks related to arthropods and et cetera.

11 Q On what do you base your conclusion that you know

12 enough to state here that life arose naturally?

13 A It's the best judgment in the scientific

14 community. In summary statements on the last page, you

15 need to summarize the work of an entire chapter. The

16 discussion is much more abbreviated than the actual

17 commentary itself within the chapter.

18 Q But you didn't state that most scientists think,

19 you said, "Life arose naturally," without qualification,

20 isn't that correct?

21 A That's what it says. That is the best judgment of

22 the scientific community. It is subject to alteration, as

23 is every statement in science. Undoubtedly, subsequent

24 editions of this textbook will change much that is in it.

25 Q In discussing Act 590 this morning, did you testify


1 Q (Continuing) to the effect that you didn't think

2 there was any such thing as a dual model or two model

3 approach to origin; that that was something that creation

4 scientists have thought up?

5 A I stated that— It depends on what you mean by

6 `dual model.' I don't think there is any dual model

7 within science, but it includes belief that some divine

8 power sustains the laws of nature to do things to the

9 universe, to create things out of nothing. That is not

10 science.

11 So yes, within science there could be no dual model like

12 that.

13 Q Are you aware of any possibility of how things

14 originated other than by natural processes or by some sort

15 of creator intervening?

16 A By `things', do you mean the ultimate origin of the

17 universe, or—

18 Q How life—

19 A Well, it either arose through natural law or

20 through the suspension of it. Science deals with natural

21 law.

22 Q So you would not want any sort of dual or two model

23 approach mentioned in a science classroom? You think that

24 is some sort of false dichotomy, as I understand it?

25 A Science questions deal with science. Science is


1 A (Continuing) about natural law explanations of

2 phenomenon and could be falsified and would be tentative.

3 Q I understand you think it could be falsified, but

4 you wouldn't want a dual model approach, as I understand

5 your testimony, on Act 590, is that correct?

6 A Not in which one of the models is outside the

7 definitions of science and not subject to tests or

8 revision.

9 Q And do you not state, 572 of that text, where you

10 introduce part E, quote, Biologists have described more

11 than a million species of living organisms, and at least

12 this many still await discovery. Why are there so many

13 kinds of organisms, and why are they so varied yet

14 evidently organized into groups of similar forms. These

15 ancient questions have two potential resolutions. Either

16 all species were created as we find them and the

17 relationships among them reflect the creator's opinion

18 about how the world should have been organized, or all

19 species have descended naturally, from a common ancestor,

20 and true relationships among them reflect patterns of

21 genealogical proximity of an evolutionary tree, close

22 quote.

23 A Yes. Despite the historical introduction, which is

24 a two page introduction to the five parts of the textbook,

25 are historical commentaries, if you read the other four,


1 A (Continuing) you'll see that is so. And what I'm

2 stating is merely the fact of what in history has been the

3 two explanations.

4 Q But you don't say that these ancient questions had

5 two essential resolutions, you said they have.

6 A That's true, isn't it? I mean, it is true that

7 there are two possibilities. One of them has been

8 falsified, perhaps. And as in any thing, you can use that

9 linguistic mode of statement. I can state the earth is

10 either round or flat. I guess there are other

11 possibilities there.

12 Q Was that a metaphor for reference to the creator

13 there?

14 A Where is the creator?

15 Q In that quote.

16 A Creator of all things? No, no. That is a

17 statement of what, in true history of biology — as I

18 repeat, all five of these introductions are two page

19 historical introductions to the subject matters - that is

20 a statement of what in history have been two patterns.

21 I didn't go on right in the beginning of the chapter on

22 the next page, that's what I said before, to say why we're

23 convinced that true correct explanations that we say, that

24 evolution is a fact.

25 Q You further go on, on page 576, do you not, and


1 Q (Continuing) talk about adaptation, you mention

2 the fact that pro-creationist adaptation reflects the

3 wisdom of God and the harmony of his world. Exquisite

4 adaptation is the closest thing to perfection that

5 organisms display and perfection need not need a history.

6 It's an adaptation as the best design that we can imagine

7 that might have been created as we find it.

8 A You are making, again, a historical comment.

9 Within true context of the chapter you can see that the

10 entire chapter is built on why that is not an adequate

11 explanation for life. But as a historian would attempt to

12 write textbooks, it has a heavy historical flavor, but

13 tempered throughout the various chapters of this book you

14 will find various comments about what people have believed

15 in the past. But if you read the chapter, particularly

16 that statement about evolution and facts, those are to see

17 that the entire context of the chapter is to point out why

18 we do not accept that explanation.

19 Q So the question as you understand it, is not that

20 these questions had two resolutions, or they still have

21 one to two resolutions; is that correct?

22 A That's a statement of logic. And they have two

23 that one can think of, and one of those is excluded by

24 science. That's what the chapter is about. You can't

25 deny historically that before 1859 the notion that all


1 A (Continuing) forms of life were created as we find

2 them was the usual opinion. That's merely a historical

3 fact; there have been two. It's also a historical fact or

4 we wouldn't be in this room, and many people in this

5 country still believe that.

6 But sociological fact and science are different

7 phenomenon.

8 Q Perhaps whether those are historical facts is what

9 this trial is about, Doctor Gould.

10 MR. WILLIAMS: I have no further questions.

11 THE COURT: Any redirect?

12 MR. ENNIS: We have no further questions.

13 THE COURT: You may be excused.


15 Thereupon



17 called on behalf of the plaintiffs herein, after having

18 been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and

19 testified as follows:




22 Q Will you state your name and occupation, please,

23 for the record?

24 A I am Dennis R. Glasgow, and I am Supervisor of

25 Science in Little Rock schools.


1 Q Will you tell true Court briefly what your

2 educational and professional background is?

3 A I have a Bachelor of Science in Education degree with

4 emphasis in biology from Southern State College. I

5 have a Master of Science in Education, also with emphasis

6 in biology and a minor in education, from Arkansas State

7 University. And in addition, I have an Educational

8 Specialist Degree in educational administration from the

9 University of Arkansas, Fayetteville.

10 Q Would you describe for the Court, and if you will,

11 Mr. Glasgow, pull that microphone a little bit closer to

12 you and speak right into it, will you describe for the

13 Court, please, what your present duties and

14 responsibilities are?

15 A As supervisor of science, basically I'm the staff

16 administrator for science. That involves serving as a

17 consultant to classroom teachers, coordinating the process

18 through which textbooks are selected, coordinating the

19 process through which curriculum guides are developed,

20 organizing and planning for in-service training for

21 teachers, serving as the chief advisor to the

22 superintendent of schools and the board on matters

23 concerning science education.

24 Q Can you tell the Court appropriately how many

25 science teachers there are in the Little Rock school


1 Q (Continuing) district?

2 A I would say approximately five hundred.

3 Q Can you tell the Court, in size, how the Little

4 Rock school district ranks among those in the state of

5 Arkansas?

6 A I believe the Little Rock school district is the

7 second largest in the state.

8 Q Do you, sir, in your capacity as science

9 supervisor, have authority over the determination or

10 development of curriculum in the area of science in the

11 Little Rock school district?

12 A Yes. I think that would be a fair statement, in the

13 sense that I'm the administrator that coordinates and

14 plans and originates things along that line.

15 Q Do you do that at all levels of public education in

16 the Little Rock school district?

17 A My duties include the span from kindergarten

18 through twelfth grade.

19 Q Do you also have any additional employment in the

20 area of science or science education, Mr. Glasgow?

21 A Yes. I teach introductory biology at UALR.

22 Q How long have you been doing that?

23 A About four years.

24 Q How long have you served in your present capacity

25 for the Little Rock school district?


1 A Two and a half years.

2 Q Prior to that time, did you teach in the area of

3 science?

4 A Yes, I have, at times in the past.

5 Q What subjects have you taught?

6 A I've taught physics, chemistry and biology in the

7 Newport public schools.

8 Q How long did you do this?

9 A For five years.

10 Q Will you tell the Court, please, what science

11 courses are required in the Little Rock school district?

12 And if you can divide your answer between the elementary

13 level and junior high or middle school and senior high, I

14 would appreciate that.

15 A Well, in essence, at the elementary level, all of

16 the science courses, and we have science at each level,

17 kindergarten through grade six are required. There are no

18 graduation requirements from elementary to junior high as

19 such, but, indeed, they are required.

20 At the junior high level, all three science courses,

21 life science in seventh grade, physical science at the

22 eighth grade, and earth science in the ninth grade, are

23 required courses.

24 At the senior high level, there is not a required course

25 as such. The students have an option to take either an


1 A (Continuing) additional science course or an

2 additional math course. I would say the vast majority of

3 the students elect to take an additional science course

4 rather than the math.

5 Q And which science course among those available is

6 most popular?

7 A It's typically biology.

8 Q At what grade level is that offered?

9 A The course I'm referring to that students usually

10 take to meet that requirement is tenth grade biology.

11 Q Are there other biology courses available in the

12 Little Rock district?

13 A Yes, there are several.

14 Q Can you tell the Court what those are?

15 A Yes. There is an advanced biology course that's

16 offered. It's essentially a twelfth grade course. There

17 is a human physiology course which is an eleventh grade

18 course.

19 Q Are there any others?

20 A Well, the subject of biology is dealt with in

21 general science, which is also taught at the tenth grade

22 level.

23 Q How, within your area of responsibility in the

24 Little Rock school district, is the curriculum determined

25 in the area of science?


1 A Well, essentially, I would say a major part of the

2 science curriculum is determined through the process of

3 textbook selection, in that to a large extent we utilize

4 the textbooks as our curriculum. In addition to that, we

5 have committees of teachers that develop curriculum guides

6 that specify to some degree what teachers should deal with

7 in a particular course.

8 We also have in-service institutes and courses that are

9 offered from time to time that would deal with curriculum.

10 Q I have placed in front of you, Mr. Glasgow, an item

11 that has been previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 40,

12 and ask you if that is a copy of the curriculum guide for

13 science or biology at the tenth grade level?

14 A It is the curriculum guide for tenth grade regular

15 biology.

16 Q Does that curriculum guide function in any manner

17 to mandate curriculum within a particular course in

18 science?

19 A Well, I hate to say that it mandates it as such,

20 but I think this gives directions and gives boundaries

21 within which teachers can operate.

22 Q Is the theory of evolution as you have heard it

23 described in the testimony in this courtroom presented or

24 treated at all in that curriculum guide?

25 A It is.


1 Q In what manner?

2 A In this particular section of the curriculum guide,

3 there are eighteen concepts or skills that deal with the

4 theory of evolution.

5 Q Does the curriculum guide, together with the

6 textbook that is selected, more than any other factor

7 determine curriculum in the classroom?

8 A That is correct.

9 Q Does the Little Rock school district select

10 textbooks for use in its science classrooms?

11 A Yes, it does.

12 Q With regard to the biology text currently in use

13 and with regard to the curriculum guide that you have just

14 referred to, is there any presentation of what is

15 identified in Act 590 of creation science?

16 A There is none.

17 Q Has there ever been, in your history with the

18 Little Rock public schools?

19 A No, there has not.

20 Q In addition to the—

21 THE COURT: Pardon me, Mr. Cearley, would you ask

22 that question again?

23 MR. CEARLEY: Yes, I will.

24 THE COURT: There were two questions you asked that

25 I didn't get.


1 MR. CEARLEY: Yes, sir.

2 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing)

3 Q You have testified, Mr. Glasgow, that textbook

4 selection largely determines curriculum within a given

5 subject?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And additionally, the district makes suggestions

8 about curriculum in the curriculum guide, is that right?

9 A That's correct.

10 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, I hate to interpose an

11 objection during Mr. Cearley's eloquent presentation of

12 Mr. Glasgow, but I would like to interpose an objection on

13 the ground of relevancy of this testimony as to the

14 constitutionality of Act 590 or relating to the possible

15 implementation of Act 590. I fail to see the relevance of

16 this testimony.

17 THE COURT: That's overruled.

18 MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, could I have the reporter

19 read my question back? I have lost my place and my train

20 of thought.

21 THE COURT: Well, the point I've missed, and I wish

22 you'd repeat it, is how 590 relates to the curriculum

23 guide.

24 MR. CEARLEY: I'll ask that question again.

25 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing)

Q You've described textbook selection and curriculum


1 Q (continuing) guides, and you testified that the

2 theory of evolution appears a number of times in the

3 curriculum guide; is that correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q My question was, does the subject of creation

6 science as it is defined in Act 590 appear anywhere in the

7 curriculum guide that you've described?

8 A It does not.

9 MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, I would move admission of

10 Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 40, which is the curriculum

11 guide that has been—

12 THE COURT: It will be received.

13 Q Has the subject of creation science ever appeared

14 in a curriculum guide in this subject, Mr. Glasgow, within

15 your tenure at the Little Rock school district?

16 A No, it hasn't.

17 Q Will you tell the Court whether, in the Little Rock

18 district, there are any other restraints or constraints on

19 you or on the district with regard to developing

20 curriculum for science courses?

21 A Well, first, there would be some constraints in the

22 area of time and money. We essentially use the textbooks

23 that are available because they are there; we can purchase

24 them through state money. We do not have the time to

25 develop curriculum to any large extent ourselves. We


1 A (Continuing) reserve that for the scientists to

2 have input into the development of textbooks.

3 There is only a certain amount of time that is available

4 during a school year, and of course, our curriculum must

5 be scaled down to some extent, and only certain things are

6 selected for inclusion because of the limited amount of

7 time.

8 Q How are those decisions generally made with regard

9 to the educational aspects of the science curriculum?

10 A Well, as far as the educational aspects are

11 concerned, I think that we would certainly want the

12 curriculum to reflect the level of development of the

13 student.

14 Students at certain ages are only capable of handling

15 concepts that are so sophisticated. So we deal with

16 things that are appropriate for the developmental level of

17 the individual students in the classes.

18 Q Is there any particular order of presentation of

19 science courses for students in your district?

20 A I'm not sure I understand your question.

21 Q Is there any particular order or sequencing of

22 science courses? Must a student take biology before

23 chemistry, or anything of that sort?

24 A Generally, yes.

25 Q Is that a factor in the selection of curriculum?


1 A Yes, it is.

2 Q With regard to the textbooks that are used in the

3 Little Rock District, Mr. Glasgow, will you tell the Court

4 how the district goes about purchasing textbooks and

5 what mechanism is used?

6 A Yes. Generally, we purchase textbooks using state

7 money The state has a committee that every five years

8 goes about selecting textbooks for inclusion on a state

9 list. And usually there are quite a few alternatives to

10 choose from there.

11 As far as the Little Rock schools are concerned, we

12 convene a committee of teachers, and frequently I'm

13 included on these committees, that would look at the

14 choices available from the state list and then we would

15 make our selections from that list.

16 This way we would be reimbursed by the state for the

17 cost of the textbooks.

18 Q Is the local district prohibited in any manner from

19 purchasing books that do not appear on a state approved

20 list?

21 A It's not prohibited, it's just that they do not

22 receive state money for those books.

23 Q Is there, to your knowledge, on the state list

24 right now a book available that gives what Act 590 terms

25 `balanced treatment' to creation science?


1 A No, there certainly is not.

2 Q Does the State of Arkansas Department of Education

3 produce anything in the way of a curriculum guide for

4 science courses?

5 A Sort of, yes. They have, and I forget the name of

6 it at the moment, some sort of science guidelines that are

7 used by individual school districts simply as a model or a

8 guide within which they can formulate their own curriculum.

9 Q Is there any coercive aspect to that? Does the

10 state tell a local district be their curriculum guide how

11 it should teach a subject?

12 A No. I don't think that's the intent whatsoever.

13 Q Are there any mandatory guidelines or regulations

14 or policies at all from the State Department of Education

15 to a local school district about curriculum content?

16 A Not to my knowledge.

17 Q Are any subjects required by the State in the area

18 of science, required to be taught on a local level?

19 A No.

20 Q Are any subjects required to be taught in any other

21 area of public education, to your knowledge?

22 A I think that perhaps American History, Arkansas

23 History, and maybe Civics are required.

24 Q With regard to the Little Rock District, can you

25 tell the Court how you, as science supervisor, control or


1 Q (Continuing) supervise what is actually taught in

2 the classroom?

3 A Well, as you recall my statement earlier, including

4 the elementary teachers, there are perhaps five hundred

5 teachers that teach science in the district. I have no

6 way to control what these teachers teach directly.

7 Indirectly, through the selection of competent, capable,

8 professional teachers, I'm assuming that they will teach

9 appropriate things in the class.

10 THE COURT: Mr. Cearley, where are you going with

11 this testimony?

12 MR. CEARLEY: Well, your Honor, one of the

13 allegations of the plaintiffs' complaint is that Act 590

14 violates the rights of academic freedom of both students

15 and teachers, in that it represents an attempt by the

16 state-

17 THE COURT: I'm aware of the allegation.

18 MR. CEARLEY: —to circumvent the process.

19 Mr. Glasgow's testimony will go to establish that what

20 the legislature has done, what the state has done, is

21 unprecedented in the area of education. And that there is

22 no method or manner within the context of the local

23 district to monitor what goes on in the classroom in order

24 to keep religion out of the classroom under a statute like

25 this, that the effect on science education of teaching


1 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing) creation science as it is

2 defined in this Act is damaging to the understanding of

3 science of students in a classroom situation.

4 THE COURT: Why don't we move on to those, direct to

5 those points, if you would.

6 MR. CEARLEY: All right, sir.

7 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing)

8 Q Have you, at my request, Mr. Glasgow, carefully

9 read Act 590 of 1981?

10 A I have.

11 Q And have you done that with a view toward

12 determining what will be required of you as the science

13 supervisor in the Little Rock School District?

14 A I have.

15 Q Have you also surveyed the textbooks that are

16 approved for use and are currently in use in the area of

17 science in the Little Rock School District?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Can you tell the Court what science courses would

20 be affected by Act 590?

21 A I think that all science courses from kindergarten

22 through the twelfth grade would be affected by Act 590.

23 MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, I have placed before the

24 witness exhibits labeled Plaintiffs' 40 through 50, which

25 are excerpts from textbooks. And I don't wish to prolong


1 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing) this or try the Court's

2 patience.

3 There are several parts of specific textbooks that I

4 would like to be reflected in the record. I would like

5 all of it in the record, if Mr. Glasgow can identify it.

6 But there are specific passages that I would like to have

7 him refer to, and I can move through that very quickly and

8 then offer all of the exhibits into the record.

9 Q Mr. Glasgow, would you refer first to Plaintiffs'

10 Exhibit Number 41. Do you have that in front of you?

11 A Yes, I do.

12 Q Is that an elementary science, or excerpts from an

13 elementary science book for use in the second grade in the

14 Little Rock School District?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Will you tell the Court specifically what language

17 in the excerpts that you have selected would, in your

18 view as science supervisor, require some sort of balanced

19 treatment under Act 590?

20 A Yes. On page 111, for instance, there is a side

21 note in the teacher's edition that talks about dinosaurs

22 as a group of reptiles known to live on the earth long

23 ago. "These animals could not adapt to the changing

24 conditions and, became extinct about sixty-five million

25 years ago." In my mind that would certainly be something


1 A (Continuing) that would be covered under Act 590.

2 Q Do you have any materials available to teachers in

3 the Little Rock District with which they could balance a

4 presentation of that sort pursuant to the Act?

5 A No, I do not.

6 Q Will you refer, please, to Plaintiffs' Exhibit

7 Number 42.

8 Can you tell the Court whether that is copies of pages

9 out of the elementary science text for use in the fourth

10 grade?

11 A Yes, it is.

12 Q Have you identified specific ideas there that would

13 trigger implementation of Act 590?

14 A Yes. There is one chapter that is talking about

15 continental drift. There is a general discussion several

16 pages long on the continental drift and plate tectonics.

17 It indicates that the continents perhaps split apart

18 about two hundred million years ago.

19 There is another part concerned with the erosion of the

20 Grand Canyon. I think that that possibly could trigger

21 Act 590. There is one other aspect that indicates that

22 dinosaurs survived for over sixty million years and there

23 is not a single dinosaur alive today.

24 Those are some examples of types of things that are in

25 that particular textbook.


1 Q Will you refer, Mr. Glasgow, to Plaintiffs' Exhibit

2 Number 43 and just tell the Court briefly why, in your

3 opinion, Act 590 would require balanced treatment?

4 A Yes. It talks about three ideas as to how

5 everything in space was formed. One of these particular

6 theories talks about one of these particular theories

7 suggests that the universe explodes, comes together,

8 explodes again, and this happens about every eighty

9 billion years.

10 Are there any materials available on either the

11 fourth or fifth grade level with which to balance such a

12 presentation under the Act right now, Mr. Glasgow?

13 A I don't think so, no.

14 Q Will you look, please, sir, at Plaintiffs' Exhibit

15 Number 44.

16 Does that represent excerpts that you've selected from

17 the sixth grade elementary science book?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Can you tell the Court what concepts are presented

20 there that are also found in the definition section of Act

21 590?

22 A Yes. There is a general discussion of the earth's

23 past, including a discussion of dinosaurs which states

24 that they lived long ago. There is some information or a

25 chapter or two on fossils that indicate or that states


1 A (Continuing) that, "Life and environmental

2 processes operating today have also operated in the past,

3 and based upon the fossil record, the scientists

4 conclude," or geologists, I guess, "conclude that simple

5 forms of life probably appeared first on the earth,

6 complex forms developed later."

7 Q Will you look now, sir, at Plaintiffs' Exhibit

8 Number 45 and just tell the Court simply whether that also

9 represents a presentation of the concept that appears in

10 the definitions under Act 590?

11 A Yes, I think it does.

12 Q Would the same be the of the excerpts that appear

13 labeled as Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 47?

14 A Yes. Exhibit Number 47 is our earth science book,

15 and I would say the major part of the earth science book

16 would trigger Act 590.

17 Q And that's taught in what grade, Mr. Glasgow?

18 A The ninth grade.

19 Q Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 48 is excerpts from a

20 text called Modern Biology. Is that selected passages or

21 pages from the text that is used in the tenth grade

22 biology class?

23 A Yes, indeed.

24 Q What part does the theory of evolution play in the

25 organizational structure of that book?


1 A Well, the chapters dealing with plants and animals

2 are arranged in a phylogenetic manner with the simpler

3 plant, the chapter dealing with simpler plants appearing

4 first and then the chapters on simple animals appearing

5 first and proceeding in a manner that is consistent with

6 phylogenetic thought.

7 Q Do you have any outside materials or other

8 materials available of sufficient quality to balance the

9 treatment that's presented there?

10 A There aren't any materials available at all that I

11 know of.

12 Q Would the same thing be true, Mr. Glasgow, of

13 Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 49, advanced biology? The name

14 of that book is Biology.

15 A Yes. The same thing would be the. This book is

16 similar in the format to the Modern Biology book that is

17 taught at tenth grade.

18 Q And lastly, Mr. Glasgow, will you go to what has

19 been labeled Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 50 and turn to the

20 second page inside, page number 18. Can you tell the

21 Court what is printed there as a statement of principle of

22 evolution?

23 A Yes. "The principle of evolution is reinforced by

24 analysis at all levels of organization in nature. That is

25 why the principle of evolution is the major unifying theme


1 A (Continuing) of this book."

2 Q How would you describe the presentation of

3 evolution in that book?

4 A I think it's pervasive throughout.

5 THE COURT: What exhibit are you referring to?

6 MR. CEARLEY: 50, your Honor.

7 Your Honor, I would move the admission of Plaintiffs'

8 Exhibits 41 through 50.

9 MR. WILLIAMS: No objection.

10 THE COURT: Those will be received. Why don't we

11 take a recess for ten minutes or so.

12 (Thereupon, Court was in

13 recess from 4:00 p.m. until

14 4:10 p.m.)

15 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing)

16 Q Mr. Glasgow, do you have in front of you a copy of

17 Act 590?

18 A Yes, I do.

19 Q And you have studied that Act, have you not?

20 A I have.

21 Q You have testified that in the Little Rock School

22 District you will be the one who is responsible for

23 implementing Act 590; is that correct?

24 A Well, I'll be the one that is responsible for

25 initiating the process. I'll have the overall


1 A (Continuing) responsibility for this, although I

2 would assume I would have help.

3 Q Do you know what the term `balanced treatment'

4 means?

5 A Well, really, I don't know. When I first looked at

6 this, I was in a quandary as to what that meant. I might

7 say, however, that since I am responsible, or would be the

8 primary person responsible in the Little Rock schools for

9 implementing this, that I've been forced to make some

10 assumptions or something of an operational definition from

11 my own mind. It's not based on anything, other than I

12 just had to make a decision one way or another.

13 The way I've interpreted `balanced treatment' is that

14 equal emphasis or equal legitimacy must be given to what

15 is called in the Act creation science and evolution

16 science.

17 Q Does that allow, from your point of view, a teacher

18 to express a professional opinion or a personal opinion

19 contrary to a balanced treatment or equal legitimacy?

20 A Well, from the standpoint of the operational

21 definition that I've used for `balanced treatment', no, I

22 do not think that would be allowed. I simply, from the

23 standpoint, you could present two things; you could even

24 spend equal time on those two things. But if at the end

25 of that the teacher said, "This is science and this is


1 A (Continuing) something else," I don't agree with

2 this, then certainly I don't think the two would be given

3 equal emphasis or equal legitimacy.

4 Q What do you interpret the term `creation' as it

5 appears in creation science in Act 590 to mean?

6 A To me it implies creation by God.

7 Q What do you interpret the term `deals in any way

8 with origins of life, man, or the universe' to mean with

9 regard to the language of Section 1 of the Act?

10 A Again, I think as would be true of many of these

11 areas, it's not clear to me exactly what it means. But

12 again, I'm the person that's responsible for implementing

13 this in the Little Rock schools, and that would be next

14 September that that would have to be done, so I've had to

15 make some assumptions regarding that.

16 I think on that basis that what it means is that anytime

17 you deal with organic evolution, anytime you deal with

18 theories about the formation of the universe or the solar

19 system, the earth/moon system, anytime you deal with

20 natural selection, anytime you deal with things that date

21 the age of the earth, then these would be areas that would

22 refer to that statement.

23 Q And I take it that your view of the meaning of that

24 statement is reflected in the textbook selections that you

25 made as Exhibits 41 through 50?


1 A Yes, it is.

2 Q Section 2 of the Act prohibits religious

3 instruction. What do you interpret that to mean?

4 A I think that prohibiting religious instruction

5 would prohibit topics or instruction that deals with

6 religious beliefs. It would prohibit documents or

7 curricula or books or whatever that use religious writings

8 as their references. Basically anything that is religious

9 in nature, I think, would be prohibited.

10 Q Section 3 of the Act states that public schools

11 within the state or their personnel shall not discriminate

12 against the student who demonstrates a satisfactory

13 understanding of evolution science and creation science.

14 Is there such discrimination in the Little Rock School

15 District how?

16 A Certainly not to my knowledge.

17 Q Is there any discrimination against students in the

18 area of science or religion at all in the Little Rock

19 School District?

20 A To my knowledge, and I feel rather comfortable with

21 this, there is no discrimination against students who

22 profess an understanding of the principles of science or

23 who profess various religious beliefs.

24 Q Do you recognize in 590 the definitions section

25 which is Section 4 of the Act, and in particular, do you


1 Q (Continuing) have any recognition of the elements

2 of the definitions of creation science and evolution

3 science that appear there?

4 A Do you mean do I recognize the definition prior to—

5 Q Yes, sir. Have you ever seen those in some other

6 source?

7 A From some other source?

8 Q Yes, sir.

9 A Certainly. I have seen basically the identical

10 definitions in creation science pamphlets and booklets and

11 so forth that I have examined. And in particular there is

12 a, I guess you'd call it a curriculum guide or curriculum

13 plan that was given to me by Doctor Richard Bliss which

14 has these definitions almost verbatim from those that are

15 listed in Act 590.

16 Q How did that occur?

11 A Well, sometime after Act 590 was passed in the

18 Legislature, I was called and asked if I would be willing

19 to meet with Doctor Bliss concerning this, and I said that

20 I would.

21 And when I met with him, I learned that he was giving a

22 workshop. I think it was at Central Baptist College, or

23 whichever Baptist college is in Conway. And I indicated

24 to him that I would not be able to attend that workshop,

25 which, by the way, was being held for teachers and other


1 A (Continuing) interested people from around the

2 state.

3 And I asked him if he had any material that he could

4 leave with me. And he said that he had the outline of the

5 workshop that he was presenting to the teachers and other

6 interested people, and that I could have a copy of that.

7 As I recall, I got his copy and ran down to the

8 duplicating machine and copied that for my use.

9 Q Did you later receive a letter from Doctor Bliss

10 including teaching materials and materials that refer to

11 creation science?

12 A No. I did receive a letter from him expressing his

13 thanks for, you know, being, finding the time to meet with

14 him, and suggesting that if I had any problems with this

15 or whatever, that I could give him a call and he would

16 attempt to help.

17 Q I have marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 128 for

18 identification, Mr. Glasgow, what appears to be a copy of

19 that letter. Do you have that in front of you?

20 A Yes, I do.

21 Q Is that a copy of a letter dated April 28, 1981,

22 from Doctor Richard Bliss?

23 A Yes, it is.

24 Q Does it bear what purports to be his signature as

25 Curriculum Development Professor of Science and Director


1 Q (Continuing) of the Institute for Creation

2 Research?

3 A Director of Curriculum Development and Professor of

4 Science, I believe, yes.

5 Q I see.

6 Are you aware of the outlets in this country for

7 creation science materials for the use in schools?

8 A Generally, yes.

9 Q Is the Institute for Creation Research among those?

10 A Yes, it is.

11 Q Have you determined whether any creation-science

12 materials are available from other sources?

13 A Other than a handful of creation research of one

14 variety or another numbering maybe five or six, I'm not

15 aware of any other source from which materials can be

16 obtained.

17 Q Attached to that letter, Mr. Glasgow, is what

18 appears to be on the first page a two model classroom

19 approach to origins. Is that the material to which you

20 referred that was given to you by Doctor Bliss?

21 A Yes, it is.

22 Q Would you turn to pages 10 and 11 of that material

23 and tell the Court whether that is the definitions section

24 that you referred to?

25 A Yes. Page 10 is scientific creation and there is