Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,19:26    I found this on the beach here in NC a few years ago, and I've had it sitting on my desk since then. I keep meaning to take it with me when I visit the aquarium, but always manage to forget (blamin' the pain meds as usual). Any ideas on what it is?  I think it's a vertebra from some rather big critter, 'cause it's a little over 4" across. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,19:27    Sorry 'bout the post title, I seem to have had a cut and paste accident all over the title. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,19:34    Looks like a vertebrae where it attaches to the pelvis.

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,19:37    Thanks for cleaning up the title for me, Steve.  Sorry to add to your workload. That's kind of what I was thinking, but I'm not finding pictures on the web of anything quite like it.  It's got a pretty cool shape to it. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,19:43    No workload at the moment. I'm just tasting my very first batch of Jerk chicken. It turned out better than it had any right to be. I couldn't find an actual scotch bonnet pepper, so I used a habanero, which is in the same family, and it's really nice and painful and delicious.

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,20:11    all I'm sure about is that it ain't from a fish. definetely a large mammal of some kind. yeah, real helpful, I know. looks too big for a pinniped. the dorsal looks like an .... angel. don't show it to a creationist; they might claim it as a holy relic. hmm.  no vertical dorsal projections.  that might narrow it down some. here, for a comparison, is the vertebra from a humpback whale: note the very large vertical protrusion (forget what it's called now). maybe what you have there is a neck vertebra? look at this picture of a horse skeleton: note the vertical protrusions on all vertebrae but the neck. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,20:44    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,20:11) all I'm sure about is that it ain't from a fish. definetely a large mammal of some kind. yeah, real helpful, I know. looks too big for a pinniped. the dorsal looks like an .... angel. don't show it to a creationist; they might claim it as a holy relic. hmm.  no vertical dorsal projections.  that might narrow it down some. here, for a comparison, is the vertebra from a humpback whale: (snip image) note the very large vertical protrusion (forget what it's called now). maybe what you have there is a neck vertebra? look at this picture of a horse skeleton: (snip image) note the vertical protrusions on all vertebrae but the neck. Actually, knowing that it didn't come from a fish is quite helpful.  That really does narrow it down quite a bit.  I'll concentrate on other things. So far as I can find on teh interwebs, it's also not a whale or dolphin.  The "angel wings", the protrusions on the sides have a very definite curve to them that I haven't seen in any images of marine mammals.  I've been searching equine vertebrae images, as there is a population of feral horses on the islands around Cape Lookout, which is just offshore here. I'm having a spot of trouble finding some good close-ups, however.  Mostly I'm finding logos for "horse chiropractors". I think I'm going to make a rule where no one is allowed to use the interwebs anymore for junk I'm not looking for.  It's damned hard to sift through all the crap to find what I want, and it's getting annoying. As for the lack of dorsal projections, beings that I ain't a biologisticalist, I haven't ruled out anything based on that, because I'm not for sure that such a projection hasn't just been lost in oceanic meanderings.  Doesn't seem like it could have been meandering too long though, given that the curly "angel wings" are still there.  Seems like an extended bounce-around in the water would have busted them off. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,20:50    Quote I think I'm going to make a rule where no one is allowed to use the interwebs anymore for junk I'm not looking for. fine idea. I kid, but i believe there really are customizable spiders you can use to garner information off the web that do an excellent job of filtering useless stuff. ... you'll have to google for those, though. :p -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,20:58    Quote (stevestory @ May 29 2007,19:43) No workload at the moment. I'm just tasting my very first batch of Jerk chicken. It turned out better than it had any right to be. I couldn't find an actual scotch bonnet pepper, so I used a habanero, which is in the same family, and it's really nice and painful and delicious. I think scotch bonnets and habaneros are basically the same thing. AWWW... ain't he a cute little devil! -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

ScaryFacts Posts: 337 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,21:09    Lou, You have found conclusive proof of the UNIVERSAL TRANSITIONAL FOSSIL Kevin

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,21:12    Quote (ScaryFacts @ May 29 2007,21:09) Lou, You have found conclusive proof of the UNIVERSAL TRANSITIONAL FOSSIL Kevin Yeah, I've been tossing around the idea that I've found a completely new species of animal.  I think I'll call it "Louicus Cantfuckingfinditicus".  It's closely related to the common Snuffleupagus. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,21:15    Maybe I'll give Ken Ham a call... -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,21:22    Unhelpful, but funny. Came across it whilst looking for my bone... um... yeah. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

ScaryFacts Posts: 337 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,21:37    Quote (Lou FCD @ May 29 2007,22:22) Unhelpful, but funny. Came across it whilst looking for my bone... um... yeah. Lou, You have something all over your hands.  What is that?  It looks like...too much time.

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,21:45    Quote (ScaryFacts @ May 29 2007,21:37) Quote (Lou FCD @ May 29 2007,22:22) Unhelpful, but funny. Came across it whilst looking for my bone... um... yeah. Lou, You have something all over your hands.  What is that?  It looks like...too much time. Truer words may never have been spoken... -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,21:56    Quote (Lou FCD @ May 29 2007,21:22) Unhelpful, but funny. Came across it whilst looking for my bone... um... yeah. He said 'bone'. Heh heh. Heh heh. Heh heh. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,21:56    You have favored one view.  I think, but can't tell, that it could be the rear part of a skull of a rather small mammal.  (The ruler is in inches)? Could you vary the view?  Dorsal, ventral, lateral, proximal, distal:  (top, bottom, side, "fore and aft"). -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,21:59    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,21:56) You have favored one view.  I think, but can't tell, that it could be the rear part of a skull of a rather small mammal.  (The ruler is in inches)? Could you vary the view?  Dorsal, ventral, lateral, proximal, distal:  (top, bottom, side, "fore and aft"). Sure, hang on a sec... -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:11    Yes, in inches. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:12    hmm. I think Gary's right. I thought the cross section looked odd, but thought it might just be wear. those "wings" do kinda look like they might be orbital bones. oh, yes those new pics are much clearer. yes, it does indeed look much more like a skull now. it looks like the beginning of the vertebral column is sticking out of the top in the second photo. no, wait, pic 7 shows the back end of the skull, so the second photo is showing where the front of the skull is broken off. the cross-section (last pic) looks like a saw blade cut through the skull. also note the clear suture lines in the second and third pics, which I thought might be cracks in your earlier pics. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:14    I am pretty sure that you have rear end of a skull that has separted at the frontal, and has lost the auditory bula.  The wing like extentions are not lateral processes of vertebra (notice they have an unfused symphisis surface, so I think they look like the temporal bone where it articulated with the zygomatic. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:17    Yep.  The left auditory bula is missing as is the front to the critter. I dug out my Mammalina Osteology.  If you could get a shot of the top of the skull from the rear with the squiggly lines (sutures) between the parietal and occipital bones in good focus, there is a 1 in 5 chance of guessing the genus, or family. Edited by Dr.GH on May 29 2007,22:23 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:17    It's William Dembski's funnybone. He sure ain't using it. I'm trying to read the calendar on your desk, actually. Does it say that your basketball team beat Christ the King?   -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:18    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,22:12) hmm. I think Gary's right. I thought the cross section looked odd, but thought it might just be wear. those "wings" do kinda look like they might be orbital bones. oh, yes those new pics are much clearer. yes, it does indeed look much more like a skull now. it looks like the beginning of the vertebral column is sticking out of the top in the second photo. the cross-section looks like a saw blade cut through the skull. Oh yeah, I'm kinda seein' that... -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:23    of course, trying to figure out exactly the critter it came from is still gonna be tricky. but at least we're sure it's a skull now. I'm still sure it's not from a fish, too. :) -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:25    Quote (Kristine @ May 29 2007,22:17) It's William Dembski's funnybone. He sure ain't using it. I'm trying to read the calendar on your desk, actually. Does it say that your basketball team beat Christ the King?  :p It's from "The 365 Stupidest Things Ever Said" calendar that my Aunt buys for me every Christmas.  Sometimes I get such a kick out of one that I don't change it for a while. It's the gift that keeps on giving... -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:27    The photo above is of the back of the skull with the skull upside down. I need on like that, only flipped over rightside up, and from slightly above the medial plane. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:34    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,22:17) Yep.  The left auditory bula is missing as is the front to the critter. I dug out my Mammalina Osteology.  If you could get a shot of the top of the skull from the rear with the squiggly lines (sutures) between the parietal and occipital bones in good focus, there is a 1 in 5 chance of guessing the genus, or family. Okee Dokey, lemme see if I can translate that into crippled former electrician.  Which is the front again? (Just kiddin'.  I think I can figure it out, but I aint apromisin' nuthin'.) Ok, top of the skull, from the rear, looking at the sutures, steadied on the desk, and Shakespeare (my golden retriever) has given up trying to eat the bone for the moment. Let me know if you need a lower angle... P.S.  Forgive the towel, I'm trying to minimize distraction and reflection from my cluttered desk.  Plus my Kodak Onsaleachrome takes really crappy flash pictures... -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:35    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,22:27) The photo above is of the back of the skull with the skull upside down. I need on like that, only flipped over rightside up, and from slightly above the medial plane. Lower angle then? -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:42    Try a little higher, and one about the same. This is fun. I once cleared a homicide over the phone. The poor investigator had a fetal calf's L. paraital and a partial occipital.  It looked to the CI like a child's skull. If we had digital photos it would have only taken a few minutes. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:43    Quote (Lou FCD @ May 29 2007,22:35) Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,22:27) The photo above is of the back of the skull with the skull upside down. I need on like that, only flipped over rightside up, and from slightly above the medial plane. Lower angle then? Wait, the pic you pointed out - I thought that was from the front. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:45    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,22:42) Try a little higher, and one about the same. This is fun. I once cleared a homicide over the phone. The poor investigator had a fetal calf's L. paraital and a partial occipital.  It looked to the CI like a child's skull. If we had digital photos it would have only taken a few minutes. A little more angle?  Ok hold on.  I'm a little turned around, I think.  Plus my batteries just died.  Gimme a minute. (And yeah, it's pretty fun doin' it like this.) -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:47    Quote I need on like that, only flipped over rightside up, and from slightly above the medial plane. TAHT'S JEST WHAT YOU'RE MOTHER SAID TO ME LAST NITE.  HAH! I WIN AGAIN! -DT -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:50    also, if a saw really was used to cut through the skull, like it appears in the last pic in the series, that might also suggest it isn't a marine mammal, but maybe a discard from some slaughterhouse? just to be clear, I think this is the right orientation. Gary? -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:51    Ok, as I'm picturing this in my head, this picture would be looking right into the critter's face, right side up, and you need to see from exactly the other direction, right? -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:53    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,22:50) also, if a saw really was used to cut through the skull, like it appears in the last pic in the series, that might also suggest it isn't a marine mammal, but maybe a discard from some slaughterhouse? just to be clear, I think this is the right orientation. Gary? Well that would explain why I'm all boogered up, then. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:54    Quote (Lou FCD @ May 29 2007,22:51) Ok, as I'm picturing this in my head, this picture would be looking right into the critter's face, right side up, and you need to see from exactly the other direction, right? That is the bottom of the skull with the "face" pointed up. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:55    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,22:50) also, if a saw really was used to cut through the skull, like it appears in the last pic in the series, that might also suggest it isn't a marine mammal, but maybe a discard from some slaughterhouse? just to be clear, I think this is the right orientation. Gary? You got it.  ;) -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,22:59    Ok, from the rear, right side up, my head out of my butt, and with sutures in focus...  I think... Am I getting warm yet? -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:01    yeah, the difficulty is that we are used to seeing the whole lower portion of a skull attached. this is just the upper half of a skull, no lower jawbone or occipitals. there appears to be no ridge on the upper back of the skull, which I think cats have, so I'm going to eliminate "cat". too big for any North American rodent skull. I don't think sheep have that high of a raised cranial area towards the back. hmm. ah, the new pics show a flattened rear cranial plate. that should narrow it down. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:01    From what I have seen so far, I think this is an immature carnivour.  It is soooo easy with teeth. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

deejay Posts: 113 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:02    Hi Lou- The last picture of your original post has a nice view of the floor of the skull from above.  The bone that makes up a good chunk of the floor of the skull is the sphenoid bone.  Click on image "sphenoid bone, upper surface" in the wikipedia entry for a decent look at this bone in humans.  The holes on either side above this bone are where the optic nerves come in, and the holes on either side below this bone are where the internal carotid arteries come in.  In the very center of this bone is a depression where the pituitary gland sits, called the fossa hypophysea in the wikipedia entry.  Your skull has a prominent dorsum sellae, the wall right behind the depression. The very top center of this same photo is the ethmoid bone, where the olfactory nerves come in.  The big hole in the very center of your last entry on the first page is the foramen magnum, where the spinal cord leaves.   Hope this helps you with some of the orientation and function.  I only know human anatomy, not comparative anatomy, and it was a fun exercise for me to wrestle with the homology.  All description guaranteed accurate or your money back.

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:09    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,23:01) From what I have seen so far, I think this is an immature carnivour.  It is soooo easy with teeth. hmm, don't most carnivore skulls have a longitudinal dorsal ridge towards the top rear of the cranium? -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:09    Quote (deejay @ May 29 2007,23:02) Hi Lou- The last picture of your original post has a nice view of the floor of the skull from above.  The bone that makes up a good chunk of the floor of the skull is the sphenoid bone.  Click on image "sphenoid bone, upper surface" in the wikipedia entry for a decent look at this bone in humans.  The holes on either side above this bone are where the optic nerves come in, and the holes on either side below this bone are where the internal carotid arteries come in.  In the very center of this bone is a depression where the pituitary gland sits, called the fossa hypophysea in the wikipedia entry.  Your skull has a prominent dorsum sellae, the wall right behind the depression. The very top center of this same photo is the ethmoid bone, where the olfactory nerves come in.  The big hole in the very center of your last entry on the first page is the foramen magnum, where the spinal cord leaves.   Hope this helps you with some of the orientation and function.  I only know human anatomy, not comparative anatomy, and it was a fun exercise for me to wrestle with the homology.  All description guaranteed accurate or your money back. Thanks, DeeJay.  The one part I had figured out was where the spinal cord goes.  Other than that, I was lost.  Once Dr. GH got me to the skull rather than a vertebra, I was trying to orient to the human skull, but hadn't quite made the connections.  Your quick tour and Ichthyic's labeled picture really helped. Thanks. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:09    sombody whacked that critter with a big knife, or a cleaver??? shoot this from your left with as much detail of the broken edge as possible.  Also, feel with your finger for ridges on the broken surface, or a rough edge along the inner portion of the break. ??? Curiouser and curiouser -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:13    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,23:09) Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,23:01) From what I have seen so far, I think this is an immature carnivour.  It is soooo easy with teeth. hmm, don't most carnivore skulls have a longitudinal dorsal ridge towards the top rear of the cranium? Yep, the sagital crest... Not cats, or seals. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:15    I'm going to go in a totally different direction from Gary and say it's the top, back quarter of a calf skull. OTOH, it would have to be a pretty small calf. still, i'm gonna stick with that for now. the other problem is that juvenile skulls sometimes look a lot different than adult skulls. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:20    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,23:15) I'm going to go in a totally different direction from Gary and say it's the top, back quarter of a calf skull. Too small, wrong auditory bula -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:23    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,23:13) Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,23:09)   Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,23:01) From what I have seen so far, I think this is an immature carnivour.  It is soooo easy with teeth. hmm, don't most carnivore skulls have a longitudinal dorsal ridge towards the top rear of the cranium? Yep, the sagital crest... Not cats, or seals. not cats? now I'm really confused.  the dorsal longitudinal ridge at the back of these skulls.  is that occipital or saggital? -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:28    I only have a few skulls in reach, and I don't feel like going out to the storage shed to any more tonight.  I am leaning toward a young cat that was killed with a sharp edged weapon. If there are kirf marks (ridges on the surface of the bone defect) then there is more to learn.  (And the weird moves up a notch).  I had a case in Tennessee where I got to saw and chop a lot of bones in order to prepare comparitive material for the damaged bones of a young woman.  I even was going to smash some goat heads with a baseball bat, but the guy confessed.  (He used a bat) -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:29    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,23:23) Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,23:13)   Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,23:09)   Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,23:01) From what I have seen so far, I think this is an immature carnivour.  It is soooo easy with teeth. hmm, don't most carnivore skulls have a longitudinal dorsal ridge towards the top rear of the cranium? Yep, the sagital crest... Not cats, or seals. not cats? now I'm really confused. Those are adults. Foxes have even less, but the occipital condiles don't look right to me.  Too big for wessal. Edited by Dr.GH on May 29 2007,23:31 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:29    Man, the Onsaleachrome simply does not wish to focus up close... The edge is relatively smooth, and as indicated in one of the pics, there is a straight ridge, and being a guy who occasionally works with wood, I can tell you it sure resembles a saw mark, where somebody changed angles a bit with a saw. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:30    but isn't the skull in Lou's pics too large to be a kitten's? or does the lack of a ridge proceed all the way until full adulthood? I guess I don't want to believe someone would chop a cat's head up with a saw. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:34    Quote (Lou FCD @ May 29 2007,23:29) Man, the Onsaleachrome simply does not wish to focus up close... The edge is relatively smooth, and as indicated in one of the pics, there is a straight ridge, and being a guy who occasionally works with wood, I can tell you it sure resembles a saw mark, where somebody changed angles a bit with a saw. Yep, that what it looked to me too. This is getting interesting. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:36    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,23:28) I only have a few skulls in reach, and I don't feel like going out to the storage shed to any more tonight.  I am leaning toward a young cat that was killed with a sharp edged weapon. If there are kirf marks (ridges on the surface of the bone defect) then there is more to learn.  (And the weird moves up a notch).  I had a case in Tennessee where I got to saw and chop a lot of bones in order to prepare comparitive material for the damaged bones of a young woman.  I even was going to smash some goat heads with a baseball bat, but the guy confessed.  (He used a bat) I really do appreciate all your help.  Though I'm a little disappointed that it isn't something cooler like a shark vertebra, I'm having a ball trying to get the right shots to help you guys figure this out. It's like AtBC meets CSI Jacksonville. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:39    Do you have otters back in NC?  I lived in Georgia for a while, and there were (IIRC) river otters in the Savana River. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:39    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,23:30) but isn't the skull in Lou's pics too large to be a kitten's? or does the lack of a ridge proceed all the way until full adulthood? I guess I don't want to believe someone would chop a cat's head up with a saw. If it's a cat skull, it's fully grown or it's a newborn tiger.  We don't get a whole lot of those in Eastern North Carolina, though. It's too big to be a kitten. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:40    *sigh*. It's just been too long since I've done any comparitive anatomy (about 20 years, at least with anything other than fish). I found this for you, which might help you out: http://www.skullsite.co.uk/index.htm -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:41    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 29 2007,23:39) Do you have otters back in NC?  I lived in Georgia for a while, and there were (IIRC) river otters in the Savana River. That's a very good question, and one to which I do not know the answer.  I've been here a few years, but I'm a transplant from Philly. I'll have to look that up for ya' Doc. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:45    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,23:40) *sigh*. It's just been too long since I've done any comparitive anatomy (about 20 years, at least with anything other than fish). I found this for you, which might help you out: http://www.skullsite.co.uk/index.htm Hey thanks! Kinda resembles a small version of this guy a little: -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:46    hmm. what about a juvenile racoon skull? I'd bet you have a lot of those in NC? look at the juvenile skull on the right. I could also imagine that as being an animal someone might cut up, if they considered it a pest, maybe? without a huge knowledge of skull morphology, I'm mainly going by the agreed on fact that there is a saw mark right through the cranial cavity, top to bottom, and trying to figure out something consistent with that. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:54    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,23:46) hmm. what about a juvenile racoon skull? I'd bet you have a lot of those in NC? look at the juvenile skull on the right. I could also imagine that as being an animal someone might cut up, if they considered it a pest, maybe? I think my guy is missing the curly thing behind the eye socket, and the "angel wings" on my guy stick way out.  And yes, "curly thing behind the eye socket" and "angel wings" are the proper scientifical names for them. Plus, I think that there are still folks that eat 'possum here.  The pic I put up seems to have more curves in common with my hunk o' skull than the raccoon, I think. If that makes any sense. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,23:59    sure. but the pic you displayed (is that the possum?) looks like it has a prominent ridge on top, which the one from the beach doesn't. again, could be a juvenile, maybe? shrug. I give. Gary will probably figure it out tommorrow. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,00:03    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,23:59) sure. but the pic you displayed (is that the possum?) looks like it has a prominent ridge on top, which the one from the beach doesn't. again, could be a juvenile, maybe? shrug. I give. Gary will probably figure it out tommorrow. Yeah, my guy doesn't have that ridge. It does have a short version, though.  Like you say, maybe it's a juvenile?  Or a different species? Seems like we're homing in on big fat rat-like critters, though. I give, too.  I'm tired o' thinkin' all serious like. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,00:13    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,23:30) I guess I don't want to believe someone would chop a cat's head up with a saw. Welcome to my world. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,00:18    Quote (Lou FCD @ May 29 2007,23:45) [quote=Ichthyic,May 29 2007,23:40] Kinda resembles a small version of this guy a little: Nope, temporal bone is all wrong, as is the occipital-parietal suture. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,00:20    Racoon is a good possibility. I'll get one out of the shed tomorrow.  It is fun when they aren't human.  (less interesting, but fun) Edited by Dr.GH on May 30 2007,00:27 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,11:36    Two observations; a possible reason the "face" was sawn off was to make a taxidermic mount- they wanted the teeth without needing to degreese the skull.  Then, the bone of the parietal looks far too thick to be a racoon. Edited by Dr.GH on May 30 2007,13:04 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,13:01    Coolio.  Lookin' forward to it. :) -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,13:15    Quote (Lou FCD @ May 30 2007,13:01) Coolio.  Lookin' forward to it. :) I am stumped without have the thing in hand to directly match with my comparative collection.  I have racoons, skunks, possum, coyote, weasel, bobcat, and domestic cats and dogs.  My interest was their dental works because I used them to match their teeth with marks on human bone.  I don't have otters or seals since they are not likely to have chewed on people.  (I do have several species of shark but those are not relevant here). -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,13:22    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 30 2007,13:15) Quote (Lou FCD @ May 30 2007,13:01) Coolio.  Lookin' forward to it. I am stumped without have the thing in hand to directly match with my comparative collection.  I have racoons, skunks, possum, coyote, weasel, bobcat, and domestic cats and dogs.  My interest was their dental works because I used them to match their teeth with marks on human bone.  I don't have otters or seals since they are not likely to have chewed on people.  (I do have several species of shark but those are not relevant here). Sounds like you've got quite an interesting job.  Forensic pathologist or something (if you don't mind my asking)? Grissom?  Is that you, Gil? -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,13:25    btw, please allow me to extend my gratitude to you both.  I've truly been enjoying this little exercise. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,13:35    I am an archaeologist, but about 17 years ago I started working on how bone is modified after death.  That evolved into a specailty in forensic thaphonomy.  I don't do much anymore. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,14:50    -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,15:25    yeah! I like my critters to stand the he11 still so I can get a clear picture! none of this, "oh, i gotta move around, or fly away, or go hide under a bush" shit. taxidermy 101 showed me how to fully pose and stage all my best shots! thanks, Taxidermy 101!  I told all my other photography friends about your fantastic class!! -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Ra-Úl Posts: 93 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,16:20    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 30 2007,13:35) I am an archaeologist, but about 17 years ago I started working on how bone is modified after death.  That evolved into a specailty in forensic thaphonomy.  I don't do much anymore. Dr. Hurd, just a quick question: did you ever meet Dr. Sheilagh Brooks? I just remembered going to her house before a field class and looking out a back window at the bones on her picnic table, wondering whether the neighbors ever looked over the fence (low fences in the neighborhood, IIRC). This was around '72, Las Vegas. -------------- Beauty is that which makes us desperate. - P Valery

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,16:43    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 30 2007,13:35) I am an archaeologist, but about 17 years ago I started working on how bone is modified after death.  That evolved into a specailty in forensic thaphonomy.  I don't do much anymore. Very cool, very interesting.  Was there a particular thing, moment, event that put you down that road, or was it one of those things that just sort of evolved from the archeology?  Just curious.  (That'll get me killed one of these days, I know.) (Btw, I'm having an all too increasingly frequent smack-myself-in-the-head moment for not putting the Dr.GH thing together.  "Doh!" Just so y'know.) (P.S. - I'm blaming the pain meds yet again for that.) -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,17:31    Quote IF YOU CAN'T GET IT TO THE TAXIDERMIST AT ONCE, YOU MUST PEEL THE SKULL IN THE FOLLOWING FASHION: CAREFULLY cut around the skin at the base of the antlers. Cut the skin loose from the forehead to the eye sockets and loosen the skin around the eye sockets. Continue skinning down toward the nose, along the jaws, nostrils and lips, until completely free of the skull. Great care must be exercised that you do not pierce the skin because much of this part cannot be repaired by the taxidermist. Next, saw through the skull across the eye sockets. Saw down through the skull about an inch behind the antlers. Trim off all the meat from the antler base or put it in a pot of water and boil it off. Take the entire skin and antlers to the taxidermist. To sum up, don't skimp by cutting too high on the neck, the taxidermist needs this extra skin. Get it to the taxidermist immediately. Be super careful when skinning the face because if you break through this skin you create big problems for the taxidermist. Continue skinning out the lower half of the skin following the directions given for conventional skinning. Many experts say you should get the hide off as soon as possible. Others insist the hide should be left on during aging. I have noticed that venison aged with the hide on definitely has a stronger taste than that aged with the hide off. link here. Still no idea what it is. It looks like it had some serious chewing  or biting power. It's dedicated some big grooves for muscles. PS Dr. GH. Do you have kids? When I was a kid my mom always had weird dead things and skulls and bones and frozen carcasses and things around our house and it was a conversation piece for sure. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Jim_Wynne Posts: 1208 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,18:18    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 30 2007,13:35) I am an archaeologist, but about 17 years ago I started working on how bone is modified after death.  That evolved into a specailty in forensic thaphonomy.  I don't do much anymore. FORENSAL THAPAPOTOMY ISNT THAT HARD YOU CAN LEARN IT BY READING MY WIFES SIENTIPHIC AMURICA IF U CAN THINK AS FAST AS ME. THAT THING LOOKS LIKE A FEEMER FROM A JURAFF. HAHA I CRACK ME UP. HOMO. -------------- Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,18:23    Quote (Ra-Úl @ May 30 2007,16:20) Quote (Dr.GH @ May 30 2007,13:35) I am an archaeologist, but about 17 years ago I started working on how bone is modified after death.  That evolved into a specailty in forensic thaphonomy.  I don't do much anymore. Dr. Hurd, just a quick question: did you ever meet Dr. Sheilagh Brooks? I just remembered going to her house before a field class and looking out a back window at the bones on her picnic table, wondering whether the neighbors ever looked over the fence (low fences in the neighborhood, IIRC). This was around '72, Las Vegas. Nope, but I have pissed off a few neighbors by either too much stink, or too many flys. Funny story:  I have a neighbor who is a movie director and editor.  He mostly does horror flicks.  He was doing the screams for a scene in one of his movies, and played differnt versions over and over.  Another neighbor freaked- she thought he was killing some woman- and came to get me to make him stop. OOPS -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,18:34    Quote (BWE @ May 30 2007,17:31) PS Dr. GH. Do you have kids? When I was a kid my mom always had weird dead things and skulls and bones and frozen carcasses and things around our house and it was a conversation piece for sure. No kids. My wife teaches 4th grade and gets lots of milage by describing the various 'bits and pieces' we have in the fridge.   Once she and I were at a meeting, and a presentation was by a forensic specialist.  There were quite accurate detailed slides of rape examinations, blood splatter patterns and so on...  Some people had to leave rather rapidly.  Sher leaned over to me and whispered, "I feel bad that I don't feel bad."  I replied, "Well, you have seen worse at home." -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,18:36    Quote (Jim_Wynne @ May 30 2007,18:18) Quote (Dr.GH @ May 30 2007,13:35) I am an archaeologist, but about 17 years ago I started working on how bone is modified after death.  That evolved into a specailty in forensic thaphonomy.  I don't do much anymore. FORENSAL THAPAPOTOMY ISNT THAT HARD YOU CAN LEARN IT BY READING MY WIFES SIENTIPHIC AMURICA IF U CAN THINK AS FAST AS ME. THAT THING LOOKS LIKE A FEEMER FROM A JURAFF. HAHA I CRACK ME UP. HOMO. A garlic necklace and avoiding UD will fix that right up.   :D -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,18:41    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 30 2007,18:23) Funny story:  I have a neighbor who is a movie director and editor.  He mostly does horror flicks.  He was doing the screams for a scene in one of his movies, and played differnt versions over and over.  Another neighbor freaked- she thought he was killing some woman- and came to get me to make him stop. OOPS HAHAHAHA!  Too funny. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,18:47    Quote (Lou FCD @ May 30 2007,16:43) Very cool, very interesting.  Was there a particular thing, moment, event that put you down that road, or was it one of those things that just sort of evolved from the archeology?  Just curious.  (That'll get me killed one of these days, I know.) (P.S. - I'm blaming the pain meds yet again for that.) Well, I had gotten interested in criminal investigations long before, in the 1970s actually.  I was involved in several criminal investigations when I taught in psychiatry.  I like being "outside" physically and socially.  I went to work for a private investigator when I quit teaching medicine in the 1980s.  But after a few years I went back to archaeology.  Then slowly the archaeology twisted back to homicide investigation in the 1990s. I disapprove of murder. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,18:54    Quote I disapprove of murder. why do i think there should be a "However" added to the end of that. after all, how can else can you become a card carrying member of the Church Burnin' Ebola Boyz unless you sign the waiver? (you can't get the club t-shirt -still on backorder- without signing the waiver! -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Timothy McDougald Posts: 1036 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,19:24    It looks like a young (sutures are still fairly prominent and not obliterated) white tailed deer to me...a picture looking down on the top (as pointed to in Ichthyic's picture) would be helpful -------------- Church burning ebola boy FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me. PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,20:42    Quote (afarensis @ May 30 2007,19:24) It looks like a young (sutures are still fairly prominent and not obliterated) white tailed deer to me...a picture looking down on the top (as pointed to in Ichthyic's picture) would be helpful I think you got it.  I had one within reach of my chair the whole time.  But all I have are mule deer and elk.  They are considerably larger even under 1 year old.  It would also be a female. Edited by Dr.GH on May 30 2007,20:43 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Timothy McDougald Posts: 1036 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,21:40    Quote (Dr.GH @ May 30 2007,20:42) Quote (afarensis @ May 30 2007,19:24) It looks like a young (sutures are still fairly prominent and not obliterated) white tailed deer to me...a picture looking down on the top (as pointed to in Ichthyic's picture) would be helpful I think you got it.  I had one within reach of my chair the whole time.  But all I have are mule deer and elk.  They are considerably larger even under 1 year old.  It would also be a female. Yup, no antlers. -------------- Church burning ebola boy FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me. PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,22:58    So, who whacked Bambi's baby sister!!!! Edited by Dr.GH on May 30 2007,22:59 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 30 2007,23:02    Thumper! -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,01:14    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 30 2007,23:02) Thumper! That little bastard!   You got evidence to nail him? Back to the case at hand, there is no law against shooting an inmature deer (I suppose in NC as well as Cali).  Still I wonder why?  Was it a better eating pleasure a la veal?  Might be.  If so why bother to (I think apparent) prepare the carcass for taxidermy?  Or perhaps a school or museum wanted to make a mount of a fawn.  Again, I can see the point. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,07:29    Quote (afarensis @ May 30 2007,19:24) It looks like a young (sutures are still fairly prominent and not obliterated) white tailed deer to me...a picture looking down on the top (as pointed to in Ichthyic's picture) would be helpful Hello Afarensis, I'd be happy to accommodate your request, but it seems I have misplaced my camera.  That statement is usually equivalent to "One of my kids borrowed it without informing me and has failed to return it." I carefully ventured a bit into the two wastelands which are their bedrooms, but quite honestly I got scared and ran away.  I don't like the thought of being eaten by what might live there.  I'll have to wait until they're home from school and ask them. I hate teenagers.  Is it really illegal to beat them, or is that just a friendly suggestion from the government? Nevertheless, allow me to drag up an earlier shot of the top (which is more to remind me to ask the kids about the camera than anything): -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,07:56    Sure looks like it.  ('course my insight and a buck will buy you something off the value meal board at Wendy's) For comparison: Crap.  I was going to use PaintShop to highlight some of the things I noticed that matched up really well to the picture above, but I'm now being told by Mr. Gates' Demon that PaintShop doesn't feel like coming out to play right now. This is so not gonna be a good day. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Timothy McDougald Posts: 1036 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,08:08    Quote (Lou FCD @ May 31 2007,07:29) Quote (afarensis @ May 30 2007,19:24) It looks like a young (sutures are still fairly prominent and not obliterated) white tailed deer to me...a picture looking down on the top (as pointed to in Ichthyic's picture) would be helpful Hello Afarensis, I'd be happy to accommodate your request, but it seems I have misplaced my camera.  That statement is usually equivalent to "One of my kids borrowed it without informing me and has failed to return it." I carefully ventured a bit into the two wastelands which are their bedrooms, but quite honestly I got scared and ran away.  I don't like the thought of being eaten by what might live there.  I'll have to wait until they're home from school and ask them. I hate teenagers.  Is it really illegal to beat them, or is that just a friendly suggestion from the government? Nevertheless, allow me to drag up an earlier shot of the top (which is more to remind me to ask the kids about the camera than anything): I understand completely. An example of the view I'm looking for   -------------- Church burning ebola boy FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me. PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,08:47    Ok, since PaintShop wasn't co-operating and since I really didn't have anything better to do, and because "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself", I put on my jungle hat, armed myself with an elephant gun, a tazer, and an M72A1 LAW rocket, loaded up on dry food stuffs and water, adjusted my night vision goggles, and headed in. After a harrowing adventure involving cannibal pygmies and a large hairy creature that seemed to be a cross between bigfoot and my son, I located the camera and ran for my life. How're these? -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,13:58    Yep, it is a deer.  It is so small! -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,15:52    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 29 2007,21:58) Quote (stevestory @ May 29 2007,19:43) No workload at the moment. I'm just tasting my very first batch of Jerk chicken. It turned out better than it had any right to be. I couldn't find an actual scotch bonnet pepper, so I used a habanero, which is in the same family, and it's really nice and painful and delicious. I think scotch bonnets and habaneros are basically the same thing. AWWW... ain't he a cute little devil! Dangit. I'm kind of irritated. To make the jerk chicken even awesomer, I tracked down the only scotch bonnet peppers I could find so far in Chapel Hill. Tropical Pepper Co. Scotch Bonnet Sauce: the first item on the label is scotch bonnet peppers. This is going to be powerful, eh? So I get home, and touch a tiny smidge on my tongue and... not much. A little flavor. Not bad. a bigger smidge... still not much power. Some flavor. Tasty. But not too hot. A teaspoonful, right on the tongue... some heat, sure, but I ought to be suffering and sweating and crying out for milk. At this point, I've had two teaspoonfulls straight up, and the heat is just mild.

C.J.O'Brien Posts: 395 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,16:17    It's overexposure to Teh Stupid, man. Nothing burns like it's supposed to anymore. Heck, I need a few paragraphs of Icons of Evolution just to get out of bed these days. -------------- The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand. --Joe G

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,16:18    Quote the first item on the label is scotch bonnet peppers. This is going to be powerful, eh? So I get home, and touch a tiny smidge on my tongue and... not much. A little flavor. Not bad. a bigger smidge... still not much power. Some flavor. Tasty. But not too hot. A teaspoonful, right on the tongue... some heat, sure, but I ought to be suffering and sweating and crying out for milk. At this point, I've had two teaspoonfulls straight up, and the heat is just mild. Interesting. The bottle must have been sitting on the shelf somewhere for a long time. In my experience, habañero sauce actually gets a lot milder if you keep it for a year or three, whether it's still sealed or in the fridge. A couple years ago I bought a little bottle of organic habañero sauce at my local corner store and it just about killed me. After a year or so of sitting at the back of my fridge, it was a good deal milder, but still had a kick. Quite nice, I thought. Do you have no markets in Chapel Hill (with a really good produce section) that sell fresh habañeros? I guarantee you won't have that reaction to them. Failing that, you might be able to find this in one of the better grocery stores there. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,16:26    Quote You got evidence to nail him? already taken care of. tasty, too. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,16:35    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 31 2007,17:18) Quote the first item on the label is scotch bonnet peppers. This is going to be powerful, eh? So I get home, and touch a tiny smidge on my tongue and... not much. A little flavor. Not bad. a bigger smidge... still not much power. Some flavor. Tasty. But not too hot. A teaspoonful, right on the tongue... some heat, sure, but I ought to be suffering and sweating and crying out for milk. At this point, I've had two teaspoonfulls straight up, and the heat is just mild. Interesting. The bottle must have been sitting on the shelf somewhere for a long time. In my experience, habañero sauce actually gets a lot milder if you keep it for a year or three, whether it's still sealed or in the fridge. A couple years ago I bought a little bottle of organic habañero sauce at my local corner store and it just about killed me. After a year or so of sitting at the back of my fridge, it was a good deal milder, but still had a kick. Quite nice, I thought. Do you have no markets in Chapel Hill (with a really good produce section) that sell fresh habañeros? I guarantee you won't have that reaction to them. Failing that, you might be able to find this in one of the better grocery stores there. Sure. You can even get fresh habañeros at Food Lion. I've got a few sitting in the kitchen. I was hoping the Scotch Bonnet sauce would be fiery, but now it looks like I'm going to use that for flavor--the flavor is pretty good, actually--and I'll chop up both the Habañero peppers for the requisite amount of excitement and discomfort. I'm not sure what the name is for the community of foodies who carry high-powered hot sauce around with them. But I think I'm going to find those guys and see what they're up to. EDIT: I googled that habanero version of tabasco sauce and found this in Wikipedia about something called Dave's Insanity Sauce, which is about 10x stronger than that Habanero one: "It was the only hot sauce ever banned from the National Fiery Foods Show for being too hot. " Yikes.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,18:33    Quote EDIT: I googled that habanero version of tabasco sauce and found this in Wikipedia about something called Dave's Insanity Sauce, which is about 10x stronger than that Habanero one: "It was the only hot sauce ever banned from the National Fiery Foods Show for being too hot. " Yikes. Last xmas my mother-in-law gave me some 'Spontaneous Combustion' hot sauce, which has pure capsicum extract in it to crank up the heat. It's completely ridiculous. I put a half teaspoon in a huge pot of soup. I'm hoping if I leave it in my fridge 10 years it'll finally cool down to where it no longer qualifies as a biohazard. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,19:55    Quote Dave's Insanity Sauce when that came out in the local markets, most of them started putting up warning signs with a chart explaining the level of "hotness" various hot sauces contained. ya gotta admire a sauce that inspires warning signs in supermarkets. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,20:07    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 31 2007,19:55) Quote Dave's Insanity Sauce when that came out in the local markets, most of them started putting up warning signs with a chart explaining the level of "hotness" various hot sauces contained. ya gotta admire a sauce that inspires warning signs in supermarkets. Now, I like hot 'n spicy food, but this is fucking ridiculous: Quote As of 2004, other manufacturers have apparently overtaken Dave's. Products claiming to be pure capsaicin extract are being marketed, with Scoville ratings ranging from 500,000 to 16,000,000 units (the latter for a product called "Blair's 16 Million" which claims to be pure capsicum oleoresin in crystalline form). Products with Scoville ratings in this range bear warnings that they "must be diluted before use," or "use as an ingredient only," or "for use as an additive, not for direct consumption." This raises the question of whether they should properly be considered sauces at all; some specifically say "this is not a sauce." The fact that many of the extreme products have names or descriptions like "private reserve" and "limited edition" raises the suspicion that they are created mainly for publicity and for bragging rights, and are bought as curiosities and collectables rather than for actual use. Dave has recently started selling pure capsaicin crystals in medical grade containers reaching 16 million scoville units. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,20:27    Quote (the latter for a product called "Blair's 16 Million" which claims to be pure capsicum oleoresin in crystalline form). the new "crystal meth"? just thinking about snorting that blows my mind. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,20:35    Quote (Ichthyic @ May 31 2007,20:27) Quote (the latter for a product called "Blair's 16 Million" which claims to be pure capsicum oleoresin in crystalline form). the new "crystal meth"? just thinking about snorting that blows my mind. Then there's a scene in Jackass that you probably shouldn't watch.   -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 31 2007,20:37    yeah, I never got off on watching jackasses be themselves, probably why i don't spend any time on UD either. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 01 2007,03:57    Ahhhh manly topics! Hot sauce. Yeah we get (or rather got) Dave's Insanity Sauce over here in specialist shops, it's mad. I found a hotter one once called "Dan T's Inferno White Hot Insanity Sauce" that had been chemically enhanced. It was silly. My wife's family are Indian, and as such not strangers to the odd bit of hot food. I was throwing a barbeque one day and one of her older turban wearing PROPER Indian relatives (her uncle ~65 at the time, none of this born in England type Indian!) asked me for some hot sauce for his food. Now being a hot sauce lover I provided him with a selection including all the usual suspects, but I left this one at the back of the cupboard, it's practically inedible on its own. The uncle spots this, having dismissed mere Tabasco and its colleagues as poofy froo froo hot sauces not suitable for a real Indian man of massive maleness etc, and reached for the Dan T's. I warned him that this was a baaaaaaaaad idea, I tried to persuade him to use something else and obviously he got all huffy and macho about it so I let him use it. He pours about 2 tablespoons worth onto the side of his plate and proceeds to roll his chicken drumstick in it like it was ketchup. I should point out that people nearby were complaining that their eyes were watering as he did this, this stuff is pokey. He bit into the chicken drumstick and there was no time for any of this "Ahhh it's not that hot" nonsense we men do with stupidly hot food because the second it touched his lips they swelled up like balloons. He was dribbling uncontrollably, snot and tears and drool everywhere, he was gasping for breath in a genuinely frightening manner. I honestly thought I'd killed the old buffer. Eventually we got him sorted out, but it took about 45 minutes before he was breathing normally and even slightly comfortable. Oh perhaps I should point out that this is a man who I have seen eat a wine glass. No word of exaggeration, he was in the Indian Special Forces and one of their initiation  drills was to eat a proper glass wine glass. I mean getting a wine glass, biting off bits and crunching them up and swallowing.  I thought this would kill him when I saw him do it, but apparently not, loads of them do it. My point is where broken glass failed, Dan T's sauce damn near succeeded! Crazy. I will provide one last piece of advice for hot food lovers, come to the UK and I'll take you out for a Meat Phall. Never specify the meat, it spoils half the fun. A Phall is hotter than a Tindaloo or Vindaloo and is inedible. Vindaloo is stupid enough if made right, Phall is bloody ridiculous. Louis -------------- Bye.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 01 2007,09:36    Quote (Louis @ June 01 2007,03:57) I will provide one last piece of advice for hot food lovers, come to the UK and I'll take you out for a Meat Phall. Never specify the meat, it spoils half the fun. A Phall is hotter than a Tindaloo or Vindaloo and is inedible. Vindaloo is stupid enough if made right, Phall is bloody ridiculous. Hmmm. *Interesting*... (Apparently they were both invented in England, just like Tikka Masala.) -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 01 2007,09:49    Arden, Good find. Yup being married to a lady of Indian ethnic origins has its advantages in the curry houses of the world (as well as other advantages obviously). Basically a Vindaloo is an Indian dialect word for "Lets see what the stupid pissed white wanker will eat shall we?", phall is "Oh the stupid pissed white wanker has got some balls has he? Ok Sanjay, do a number on him!". Perhaps the literal meaning isn't quite right but the practical meaning is bang on. For any Brit who has seen the "Goodness Gracious Me" sketch with a group of Indians ordering an "English" Meal, the parody is so accurate as to be painful. We don;t look good in curry houses asking for a Vinders. Info here and here. Louis -------------- Bye.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 01 2007,10:07    Quote (Louis @ June 01 2007,09:49) For any Brit who has seen the "Goodness Gracious Me" sketch with a group of Indians ordering an "English" Meal, the parody is so accurate as to be painful. We don;t look good in curry houses asking for a Vinders. Info here and here. Louis I'd never heard of "Goodness Gracious Me" before -- that sketch is completely brilliant. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 01 2007,10:17    Arden, Well I'm not of Indian extraction, but being married to someone who is I get a kind of "honorary Indian" status. I'm English and have seen a lot of Punjabi culture (even speak a bit of Punjabi. It really brings home certain linguistic similarities but I digress), so from someone with a foot on both sides of the fence as it were, GGM is about one of the funniest things of the last decade. They mercilessly parody Indian (esp Punjabi) culture and Anglo-Indian culture, and they aren't afraid to have a good old fashioned pop at the rather patronising middle class attitude to Indians here in the UK. It's hilarious! It's very worth hunting down as it's quality satire from smart people. Louis -------------- Bye.

blipey Posts: 2061 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 01 2007,10:39    I can't believe I was missing out on a discussion of hot sauce!  Unforgivable.  I used to tend bar at a local hotel and we specialized in the bloody mary (one of the world's finest drinks).  We'd keep an assortment of hot sauces to add individual pizzazz according to patron's preferences.  We kept all 3 versions of Dave's on hand as well as a dozen or so others (some fairly mild, some hotter, even a BBQ flavored jalapeno sauce). We'd occasionally have "macho sauce-eating competitions" with customers.  We'd each do one drop of Dave's Total Insanity on our tongues and see who cried first.  If we did, we bought the customer a drink. For any true (and truly insane) hot sauce lover I recommend The Atomic Wings from Quaker Steak, a Pennsylvania Restaurant chain.  I am an Atomic Wing Survivor. -------------- But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 01 2007,11:29    Quote (Louis @ June 01 2007,10:17) Arden, Well I'm not of Indian extraction, but being married to someone who is I get a kind of "honorary Indian" status. I'm English and have seen a lot of Punjabi culture (even speak a bit of Punjabi. It really brings home certain linguistic similarities but I digress), so from someone with a foot on both sides of the fence as it were, GGM is about one of the funniest things of the last decade. They mercilessly parody Indian (esp Punjabi) culture and Anglo-Indian culture, and they aren't afraid to have a good old fashioned pop at the rather patronising middle class attitude to Indians here in the UK. It's hilarious! It's very worth hunting down as it's quality satire from smart people. Louis This should induce a few more cringes. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 01 2007,13:53    Please allow me to interrupt this discussion of hot sauce for a moment, just to say thanks for all the time and effort put into identifying my bone (snicker). Ichthyic, Dr. GH, afarensis, you three especially. Thanks, I really enjoyed and appreciated it. Lou I now return you to your hot sauce discussion. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend