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  Topic: YEC explanation of geology wanted, Can they explain the global flood?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2132
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2009,14:37   

Someone on Twitter is being hassled by a YEC, and asked me this:
Quote
@BobOHara Yes, I'm just trying to find a well-articulated source document to explain how strata was formed in one global flood. Can u help?

I don't follow YECism (not sciency enough, and boring due to a lack of DaveScot), so can someone help?

Ta!

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2009,14:49   

The only vaguely "well-articulated" version of this is Walter Brown (aka "Watery Wally, Wally Wonderpants" etc) Hydroplate Theory : http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/.

Glenn Morton rips Wally Hydrocephalus here: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/hydroplate.htm (I could provide threads at various sites like Dawkins' or the old Internet Infidels, etc.)

This is what I got out of harassing AFDave. Bupkis.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2132
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2009,15:28   

Thanks.  I hope that does the trick.

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Rob R.



Posts: 12
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2009,16:42   

Via the Institute for Creation Research:  CATASTROPHIC PLATE TECTONICS: A GLOBAL FLOOD MODEL OF EARTH HISTORY

From the same site:

How Long Did It Take to Deposit the Geologic Strata?

Experiments in Stratification


Not sure if these are 'mainstream' YEC, nor how well-articulated your friend will find them, but ICR is usually where I look for info on young-earth creationism (they have many pages on 'flood geology' there.)  Hope that helps.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2009,00:18   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Aug. 22 2009,12:37)
Someone on Twitter is being hassled by a YEC, and asked me this:
 
Quote
@BobOHara Yes, I'm just trying to find a well-articulated source document to explain how strata was formed in one global flood. Can u help?

I don't follow YECism (not sciency enough, and boring due to a lack of DaveScot), so can someone help?

Ta!

There are some very stupid flood arguments by YECs. Two sterling examples are;

Caldwell, Billy R.
2005 "Geology in the Bible" Burgess Hill, UK: Meadow Books

Froede, Carl R.
2005 "Geology by Design: Interpreting Rocks and Their Catastrophic Record" Green Forest: Master Books

The classic is

Whitcomb, John C., Henry M. Morris
1961 The Genesis Flood  Grand Rapids: Baker Book House

One of the YEC books I have read belongs in a class by itself. One of the most stupid books ever published. Carl Baugh, Erik von Daniken, and the Bible in a blender with what must have been a lot of drugs;

Zillmer, Hans J.
2002 “Darwin’s Mistake: Antediluvian discoveries prove dinosaurs and humans co-existed” The Netherlands: Frontier Publishing

And yes, the lame-ass work by Walter Brown,
2001 “In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood” Center for Scientific Creation; 7th edition (April 2001)

I have no doubt that the 2009 edition is any less stupid.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2009,07:55   

Slightly off topic, but here, Snelling gives advice on how to become a creationist geologist:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article....ologist

 
Quote
I have a son who is interested in pursuing a career as a geologist / geoscientist. He just finished his first year of college and is seeking God’s will and direction.
We both are concerned that this field is filled with evolutionists and even christians who don’t believe in a literal interprutation of Genesis 1:1.


Snelling's reply:

 
Quote
Greetings, and thanks for your enquiry, which was passed on to me for a response.

We are delighted to hear that your son is interested in pursuing a career in geology. We definitely need more Christians who are creationists in geology, both in the ranks of creation scientists and in the ranks of geologists generally.

I wouldn’t be too concerned that the field of geology is filled with evolutionists and even Christians who don’t believe in a plain interpretation of Genesis 1–11. Most fields of human endeavor are filled with evolutionists and compromising Christians, so that shouldn’t be a deterrent for pursuing careers in the sciences, such as geology. Indeed, we need Christians who are creationists in all of these fields to be a witness against the prevailing anti-biblical and compromising Christian attitudes in our society today.

The best way to prepare oneself for such a career is to build strength into one’s Christian faith by studying the Scriptures and studying the scientific evidences for creation and the Flood so that one is able to not only explain what one believes, but also defend it. In fact, all Christians should be able to explain their faith and what they believe and defend why they believe it. Answers in Genesis is seeking to not only provide the necessary materials, but also to train Christians to do just that. So equipped, it doesn’t matter where Christians are serving and working; if they are confident in their faith and able to defend it, then they will be able to make a good stand no matter what.

I was interested to read that your son has finished his first year of college. If he is interested in pursuing a career in geology, then you would be interested to know that this coming fall Cedarville University in Ohio, about one-and-half hours’ drive from the Creation Museum, will be starting the first-ever science degree majoring in geology at a creationist university. The aim is to train students in all the basics of geology so as to prepare them for graduate school studies or careers as geologists.

I would, therefore, encourage you and your son to consider transferring to Cedarville University, hopefully being able to get credits for what he has already accomplished. In case you are interested in following through on this further, the person to contact would be Dr John Whitmore, who is the professor setting up the geology program at Cedarville.

It's also fine to go to a secular college with a strong geology program. All of the young-earth creation geologists with PhDs have at least one degree from a secular university. It’s important to learn the conventional evolutionary model, and to learn it well. Cedarville is teaching geology with a two-model approach because they recognize how important that is. If a student goes to a secular school, for any degree, I recommend they get a Creation geologist as a mentor. A student intending to go to graduate school should work hard and learn as much as they can. They should excel in every class they take.

The main two areas in which geologists work, outside of academic research, is in environmental and engineering situations or in exploration to find new mineral deposits. In these fields there is a lot of outdoor work, surveying and investigating sites, collecting rocks, soil samples, etc. and then relating the results back to the sites in question. So, one must be prepared to work outdoors a fair bit and enjoy doing so.

If one goes into exploration for new ore and mineral deposits, then one must be prepared to go to remote locations and cope with living under basic conditions. But, of course, that’s only part of the work because, at other times, one would be in an office processing data, writing reports, etc. Apart from liking working out of doors some of the time, to be a geologist one would also have to have a great interest in the rocks and resolving questions surrounding their origin and formation.

I might add that there is always going to be a need for geologists, as new metals and resources always need to be found to replace those that are being used, and there will always be site investigations for engineering works and remediation of the environment to deal with the pollution and wastes caused by man’s activities. Of course, there are always cycles in employment opportunities depending on economic conditions, but these are more pronounced in the mining industry, which regularly goes through boom-and-bust cycles, more so than with the general economic conditions.

We certainly need more geologists in the ranks of creationists. For example, I am concerned with seeing some new young geologists entering the ranks of creation scientists because I am not getting any younger and we need younger geologists in years ahead to carry forward the torch!

I hope these few comments are a help and encouragement to you and your son. Thanks again for your enquiry. We are glad that you wrote and that you are seeking to help and encourage your son pursue a career in geology. May the Lord guide and help you in the days ahead.

Yours sincerely in Christ,
Dr Andrew Snelling


Wonder if the youngster will end up having the same experience as Glen Morton when he goes out to work in the field ?

Their sciencec degree majoring in geology might be worth an investigation by the Panda's Thumb (or NCSE). Will the degree be accredited ?

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2009,08:05   

Oh, and for a YEC book containing bad geology, how about "Genesis for today" by Prof. Andy McIntosh. McIntosh isn't a geologist but a combustion engineer from Leeds University. He has no qualifications whatsoever in geology.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



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Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2009,08:26   

'bout this "creationist university", is it actually legal?

Shouldn't it have been smitten by the Gods of Common Sense a long time ago?

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Peter Henderson



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Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2009,08:54   

Quote
'bout this "creationist university", is it actually legal?


Gosh, you've never heard of Cedarville University ? Don't be stupid ! Of course it's legal ! :

http://www.cedarville.edu/about/

Quote
Cedarville University: Inspiring Greatness

Home to 3,000 Christian students, Cedarville is an accredited, Christ-centered, Baptist university of arts, sciences, professional, and graduate programs. Cedarville is located in southwestern Ohio on a beautiful 400-acre campus.

  
khan



Posts: 1525
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2009,11:40   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 25 2009,09:54)
Quote
'bout this "creationist university", is it actually legal?


Gosh, you've never heard of Cedarville University ? Don't be stupid ! Of course it's legal ! :

http://www.cedarville.edu/about/

Quote
Cedarville University: Inspiring Greatness

Home to 3,000 Christian students, Cedarville is an accredited, Christ-centered, Baptist university of arts, sciences, professional, and graduate programs. Cedarville is located in southwestern Ohio on a beautiful 400-acre campus.

It is indeed a beautiful campus.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2009,12:27   

Some more creationist geology from Snelling today:

Quote
It is, therefore, entirely conceivable for this sequence of events from formation of the Devonian Shap Granite through to the deposition of the stratigraphically overlying Carboniferous limestone to have occurred within 2–3 weeks during the early-middle part of the Flood year. The Po radiohalos and the other evidence associated with this granite thus remove objections to Flood geology, including the timescale for granite formation, and the need to place the Flood/post-Flood boundary in the lower Carboniferous.


http://www.answersingenesis.org/article....granite

And who says creation scientists don't do "peer reviewed" research ?

To be honest, I'm not qualified enough to debunk the above nonsense. Anyone like to have a go ?

  
Henry J



Posts: 4565
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2009,12:33   

What "Flood/post-Flood boundary"?????

If such a boundary had actually been identified, it would be part of science already.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2767
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2009,13:18   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 26 2009,10:27)
Some more creationist geology from Snelling today:

 
Quote
It is, therefore, entirely conceivable for this sequence of events from formation of the Devonian Shap Granite through to the deposition of the stratigraphically overlying Carboniferous limestone to have occurred within 2–3 weeks during the early-middle part of the Flood year. The Po radiohalos and the other evidence associated with this granite thus remove objections to Flood geology, including the timescale for granite formation, and the need to place the Flood/post-Flood boundary in the lower Carboniferous.


http://www.answersingenesis.org/article....granite

And who says creation scientists don't do "peer reviewed" research ?

To be honest, I'm not qualified enough to debunk the above nonsense. Anyone like to have a go ?

Interesting.

Mid-Carboniferous and later = post-flood.  Mount Ararat (see here for location, here for geology) is Cenozoic.

Omnipotence is fun.  You get to land an ark on a mountain which isn't there yet.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Henry J



Posts: 4565
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2009,13:50   

Not to mention that bird finding a fresh twig or leaf or something, even though all the plants had to have drowned, but never mind that.

  
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