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  Topic: The Marketplace of Ideas & Free Speech, Dover is a Test Case for Supreme Court< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2005,10:30   

Ultimately the ability of anyone including science teachers to present the ID argument will win because the fundamental principle is that of Free Speech and not the separation of church and state. The case of most merit is the Scopes Trial where it was not the separation argument but rather the denial of information and free speech that won the day.

People in America understand that our strength lies in free speech because that is the critical tool that enables the marketplace of ideas to function in the public square.

If the ideas of ID are not meritorius in the eyes of the entirety of the student and adult population it will fade and die quickly, much more quickly than scientific theories which become intellectual protectorates, escounced and enthroned despite their faults and failings for reason of money (grant funding to study origins, for instance: rna first, protein first and enzyme first and dna first and clay first and silicon first, ad finitum); prestiege, tenure and textbook royalties to name a few.

If ID proves meritorius and practical upon application over time it deserves the full and complete attention of the scientific community as a superior explanation of the natural world.

The American people, the wisest and best in all the world, understand these things very well and that (not stupidity , ignorance, and religion) is the reason polls always and forever show that the great majority prefer that alternative explanations of the natrual world be given in science classes, by 2:1 margins.

The American people and their duly elected representatives and the courts are divided here but a strict constructionist supreme court , now an absolute certainty, will certainly take the view that free speech a clear and unmistakable right trumpts the recent and questionable hyperleft separation of state interpretation of the Warren oriented courts.

Maybe not at Dover but soon,very soon the elitest misquided dogmatic majority element of the scientific education community will be humbled by the will of the American people, their common sense, their experience with free speech and the open debate of ideas and on that day the Supreme Court will set the nation on a course to return to just such a preeminently important state of affairs.

There is always an argument against the presentation of alternatives ideas that oppose deeply held views by some powerful and well placed elite minority and they prevail at great expense to the majority in many ways for a while; but, it simply cannot be maintained in the face of the will of the people in our system forever and forever is one more confirmed appointment away.

I wouldn't bet on the next generation being quite so easily brainwashed as the last few have, they are familiar with snobbery, egomania, herding and such and they think quite well for themselves, thank you. All they need is access and a level playing field and they'll figure it out in a New York Minute.

That's why your team is whistleing past the graveyard as we speak... in desperate tones.

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2005,11:17   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 04 2005,15:30)
Ultimately the ability of anyone including science teachers to present the ID argument will win because the fundamental principle is that of Free Speech and not the separation of church and state. The case of most merit is the Scopes Trial where it was not the separation argument but rather the denial of information and free speech that won the day.

People in America understand that our strength lies in free speech because that is the critical tool that enables the marketplace of ideas to function in the public square.

If the ideas of ID are not meritorius in the eyes of the entirety of the student and adult population it will fade and die quickly, much more quickly than scientific theories which become intellectual protectorates, escounced and enthroned despite their faults and failings for reason of money (grant funding to study origins, for instance: rna first, protein first and enzyme first and dna first and clay first and silicon first, ad finitum); prestiege, tenure and textbook royalties to name a few.

If ID proves meritorius and practical upon application over time it deserves the full and complete attention of the scientific community as a superior explanation of the natural world.

The American people, the wisest and best in all the world, understand these things very well and that (not stupidity , ignorance, and religion) is the reason polls always and forever show that the great majority prefer that alternative explanations of the natrual world be given in science classes, by 2:1 margins.

The American people and their duly elected representatives and the courts are divided here but a strict constructionist supreme court , now an absolute certainty, will certainly take the view that free speech a clear and unmistakable right trumpts the recent and questionable hyperleft separation of state interpretation of the Warren oriented courts.

Maybe not at Dover but soon,very soon the elitest misquided dogmatic majority element of the scientific education community will be humbled by the will of the American people, their common sense, their experience with free speech and the open debate of ideas and on that day the Supreme Court will set the nation on a course to return to just such a preeminently important state of affairs.

There is always an argument against the presentation of alternatives ideas that oppose deeply held views by some powerful and well placed elite minority and they prevail at great expense to the majority in many ways for a while; but, it simply cannot be maintained in the face of the will of the people in our system forever and forever is one more confirmed appointment away.

I wouldn't bet on the next generation being quite so easily brainwashed as the last few have, they are familiar with snobbery, egomania, herding and such and they think quite well for themselves, thank you. All they need is access and a level playing field and they'll figure it out in a New York Minute.

That's why your team is whistleing past the graveyard as we speak... in desperate tones.

Free Speech?  Let me use an analogy.  If one goes to a French class, one is expected to learn French.  If one is taught Latin instead, then one will fail the exam and the teacher has blundered.  Similarly, if one goes to a Biology class, one is there to learn biology, and if one learns religion, one will fail the biology exam and the teacher has blundered.

Yes free speech is important, and the Creationists are allowed to spread their ideas in the appropriate place, which is not a science class.  Just as there are restrictions of free speech, such as hate speech and shouting “Fire” in a crowded theater, there are restrictions on teaching religion in schools, and expectations of teaching the content of the subject in question, and not some other completely different subject.

As for the American people being the wisest and best in the world, well, Ye Gods and Little Fishes, they might be that, but they are certainly not the best educated.  Fortunately, they are isolated amongst developed countries both in the strength of their religious convictions (they are the least secular of the developed world) and in their lack of education in science.  And I must emphasize that in the broader context of worldwide Religion, it is only a minority cult in America that cannot understand, and hence rejects, evolution.

And minority scientific views are welcome, and if they prove correct after scientific analysis, they often win the Nobel prize, as shown this year and with Peter Mitchell and the chemi-osmotic theory (although personally, I believe the concept of vectorial proton translocation was equally important).  In both cases the proponents allowed their scientific theories to be tested, and in the end their idea were validated.  Just like evolution.

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,01:16   

Free speech is the last thing the ID cultists want.

ID is simply part of their roadmap to setting up a fundamentalist theocracy in the USA.

If anyone dared to stand up and suggest that the designer might actually be aliens, Allah, Odin, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster instead of the Christian god, you'd have them screaming their heads off non-stop.

Why not stop lying when you deny that ID isn't religion and that all you want is the truth taught? That way, you might at least appear to have courage in your convictions. Perhaps you ought to reread the bit in the Bible where Peter denies Jesus three times.

--------------
Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
ndt



Posts: 5
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,01:26   

So evopeach, do you think history teachers in public schools should be able to tell their students the Holocaust was a hoax, as long as the idea is meritorius in the eyes of the entirety of the student and adult population?

Laws restricting what you say in the course of doing your job are not violations of the first amendment. A car salesman does not have a free speech right to tell a customer a Chevy Suburban gets 50 mpg, a doctor does not have a free speech right to tell a patient HIV does not cause AIDS, and a biology teacher does not have a free speech right to lie to students.

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,03:29   

First despite the ID distancing themselves from NEC and holding to a purely unnamed designer in word, text and now under oath, you're paranoia and rediculous illogical fears ( setting up a theocracy.. how stupid can you be)  you now commit another illegality, the assumption that people are guilty of your accusations by some form of mind reading ... that they are conspiritorial liars willing to purjure themselves in print and before the courts without a scintilla of evidence to support your claims.

Your straw men are laughable and clearly fallacious. You mischaracterize ID which alters things only to the extent that life was designed by intelligence and not by chance mutations.. I can honestly say there is nothing to support the idea that any scientist would alter activity of observation, innovation, copying. altering one whit under the alternative approach of assumed original design.

If the American people are so uneducated, ignorant and behind the rest of the world is it God's providence that we are the most developed, generous, wealthy, advanced in science and technology the world has ever seen. Is the puny, starving, begger, backward and obscenely immoral old Europe or moslem mid-east or North Korea or Russia your ideal model for America. Is the 46% of Americans who want ID taught  the minority cult you speak of... laughable.

One thing is for sure, America will reject a technocratic band of wire headed, egomaniacal atheists and agnostics as the representing the official philosophy of our country.

Keep whistleing.. but it won't help,

Evopeach

  
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,05:27   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 05 2005,08:29)
First despite the ID distancing themselves from NEC and holding to a purely unnamed designer in word, text and now under oath


My word! They lie under oath about God not being the intelligent designer? Something tells me he isn't going to be too happy about that when the ID people reach the pearly gates. "Thou shalt not bear false witness" and all that...


Quote
you're paranoia and rediculous illogical fears ( setting up a theocracy.. how stupid can you be)  .


Go and read the Part Robertson and Jerry Falwell websites. It's all there in black and white (unlike the 'evidence' for ID, of course).


Quote
you now commit another illegality, the assumption that people are guilty of your accusations by some form of mind reading ... that they are conspiritorial liars willing to purjure themselves in print and before the courts without a scintilla of evidence to support your claims


It's a statement of fact, not an assumption, I'm afraid.


Quote
You mischaracterize ID


Pot. Kettle. Black!

Quote
I can honestly say there is nothing to support the idea that any scientist would alter activity of observation, innovation, copying. altering one whit under the alternative approach of assumed original design.


Why should they when ID has not one whit of true evidence?

Quote
If the American people are so uneducated, ignorant and behind the rest of the world is it God's providence that we are the most developed, generous, wealthy, advanced in science and technology the world has ever seen. Is the puny, starving, begger, backward and obscenely immoral old Europe or moslem mid-east or North Korea or Russia your ideal model for America. Is the 46% of Americans who want ID taught  the minority cult you speak of... laughable.


Will you stil be saying that when Europe, China, India, Japan, etc, overtake you in the sciences?

And I really wouldn't get to carried away with the idea of America as 'God's own country'. I can pretty easily point out some major problems with that.



Quote
egomaniacal atheists and agnostics as the representing the official philosophy of our country.


Egomaniacal atheists and agnostics? Ah, at last you come clean!!

Instead, they're going to have a bunch of fundamentalist Christians representing the official philosophy of your country. Meanwhile, the rest of the world will continue to point and laugh at you.

--------------
Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,05:34   

Wonderpants,

Now that I see you're just another pitiful, jealous, butt head from outside the USA why don't you stay the #### out of our internal affiars and fix your own horrible problems.

Are you a socialist, a communist, a neo-nazi, a facist or some other equally admirable true believer.

Good Bye Sewer Pig

  
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,05:44   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 05 2005,10:34)
Wonderpants,

Now that I see you're just another pitiful, jealous, butt head from outside the USA why don't you stay the #### out of our internal affiars and fix your own horrible problems.

Are you a socialist, a communist, a neo-nazi, a facist or some other equally admirable true believer.

Good Bye Sewer Pig

Wow, that almost hurt.

BTW, I'll take it to be your admission that you've lost the argument.

--------------
Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,07:01   

No you can take it that your arguments are so specious and you have zero credibility and I don't thow pearls to swine.

Now go marry two women, start a brothel, shoot some senior citizens or whatever fun thing turns you on today.

Bye Bye Pig Barf

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,07:12   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 05 2005,08:29)
If the American people are so uneducated, ignorant and behind the rest of the world is it God's providence that we are the most developed, generous, wealthy, advanced in science and technology the world has ever seen.

Actually old bean we are one of the least generous of the developed nations, both in terms of foreign aid and how we treat our own citizens (inequality in the USA is greater than in most developed countries).  And the fact that most Americans don not know either of those facts says volumes about our educational system. And I guess explains why so many of our population do not understand the Law of Evolution.

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,07:33   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 05 2005,12)
No you can take it that your arguments are so specious and you have zero credibility and I don't thow pearls to swine.

Now go marry two women, start a brothel, shoot some senior citizens or whatever fun thing turns you on today.

Bye Bye Pig Barf

My, you do have a lot of pent up anger.

I guess it must stem from the fact that you know you're utterly wrong, a blatant liar, a hypocrite, a poor reflection on even the fundamentalist Christians, and that you have to resort to name calling to conceal the fact from yourself. I've scraped more intelligent and civilised things than you off the bottom of my shoes.

--------------
Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,07:45   

Civilized has a Z in it.

It must be a word you sewer people are not used to dealing with since it has no place in your culture.

And since when did you Neanderthals start wearing shoes?

Now go away before we cut off your foreign aid and you people starve to death.

  
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,08:18   

Keep going, evopeach!

You're giving me the best laugh I've had for some time, and digging yourself ever deeper into a hole at the same time.  :)

Anyone know if ID cultists even consider Neanderthals a separate species, btw?

--------------
Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,08:25   

Wonderthal,

Yes ever since you began posting and it became common knowledge that no member of any extant species would consider having sex with you.

  
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,09:08   

Quote
Wonderthal,

Yes ever since you began posting and it became common knowledge that no member of any extant species would consider having sex with you.


Sorry, was I talking to you there?


I'm going to start selling an Evopeach clockwork toy line.

Just wind it up and watch it childishly and illogically rant on about evolution!

--------------
Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,09:17   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 05 2005,12:01)
No you can take it that your arguments are so specious and you have zero credibility and I don't thow pearls to swine.

Now go marry two women, start a brothel, shoot some senior citizens or whatever fun thing turns you on today.

Bye Bye Pig Barf

Well, at least you silly abuse clears one thing up.  You are obviously not a practicing Christian!

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,12:02   

I just looked up the aid to developing countries as a percenmtage of GNP equivalent and per capita and gross dollars and USA leads in every category for the last 25 years at least. Try it yourself meatball.

Facts please not assertions... you read like an evolutionist.. oh thats right you are one.

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,12:46   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 05 2005,17:02)
I just looked up the aid to developing countries as a percenmtage of GNP equivalent and per capita and gross dollars and USA leads in every category for the last 25 years at least. Try it yourself meatball.

Facts please not assertions... you read like an evolutionist.. oh thats right you are one.

Certainly.  But first I must request that you cease to use abuse as a discussion tool, at least when directed at me.



The United States ranks last among the world's 28 top foreign aid donor countries, and its foreign assistance levels have dropped dramatically over the past 10 years, according to the United Nations Human Development Report (2002). When you look at countries' foreign aid relative to the size of their economies, the United States is devoting 0.1 per cent of its gross national product (GNP) to help the world's poorest countries, less than any other industrialized nation.

http://hdr.undp.org/

"[Americans] are regularly told by politicians and the media, that America is the world's most generous nation. This is one of the most conventional pieces of 'knowledgeable ignorance'. According to the OECD, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, the US gave between $6 and $15 billion in foreign aid in the period between 1995 and 1999. In absolute terms, Japan gives more than the US, between $9 and $15 billion in the same period. But the absolute figures are less significant than the proportion of gross domestic product (GDP, or national wealth) that a country devotes to foreign aid. On that league table, the US ranks twenty-second of the 22 most developed nations. As former President Jimmy Carter commented: 'We are the stingiest nation of all'. Denmark is top of the table, giving 1.01% of GDP, while the US manages just 0.1%. The United Nations has long established the target of 0.7% GDP for development assistance, although only four countries actually achieve this: Denmark, 1.01%; Norway, 0.91%; the Netherlands, 0.79%; Sweden, 0.7%. Apart from being the least generous nation, the US is highly selective in who receives its aid. Over 50% of its aid budget is spent on middle-income countries in the Middle East, with Israel being the recipient of the largest single share"

http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/foreign_aid.html

Norway 0.92
Denmark 0.84
Netherlands 0.81
Luxembourg 0.8
Sweden 0.7
Belgium 0.61
France 0.41
Ireland 0.41
Switzerland 0.38
Finland 0.34
United Kingdom 0.34
Germany 0.28
Canada 0.26
Australia 0.25
Spain 0.25
New Zealand 0.23
Greece 0.21
Portugal 0.21
Austria 0.2
Japan 0.2
Italy 0.16
United States 0.14




http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/61/31504039.pdf

Please note I have given web addresses and tables.  I am afraid that your assertion that the USA leads in every category for the last 25 years is demonstrably false.  I would assume most posters would have already guessed that, as you were unable to provide a link.

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,15:35   

Peach,

Back to your original post on this thread, did you write it with a crayon?

   
ndt



Posts: 5
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2005,20:59   

Evopeach, can you answer my question in post #4? Do history teachers in public schools have the right to teach sutdents that the Holocaust never happened, and was in fact a hoax perpetrated by a worldwide Zionist conspiracy?

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2005,03:27   

Midnight,

Please remember that the total giving includes ALL forms of charity not just government programs but that given directly from companies, individuals and faith based groups to include the dollar value of volunteered time etc., direct investment in infrastructure, etc.

I would take another look from a non-socialist perspective.

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2005,03:32   

NDT,

No but do you know about false comparisons, red herrings, strawmen etc. or is it just bad luck that all of your posts are such fallacies.

And I strongly urge you not to continue teaching those sorts of lies in all of your classes. I do not give you permission to do so.

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2005,06:02   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 05 2005,17:02)
I just looked up the aid to developing countries as a percenmtage of GNP equivalent and per capita and gross dollars and USA leads in every category for the last 25 years at least. Try it yourself meatball.

Facts please not assertions... you read like an evolutionist.. oh thats right you are one.

Dear evopeach.  You specifically stated, and the quote is below, that "aid to developing countries as a percenmtage of GNP.....USA leads in every category for the last 25 years at least"  Apart from the spelling, that statement is incorrect.

As you were wrong in your statement, I expect you to admit your error and apologize for the insult.

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2005,06:12   

What I did not say was to use only foreign aid as the calculus so please review the money given in total from all American sources not just the government allocation.

GDP is a great measure of economic activity for the denominator but the numerator has to include all sources of giving because Americans are the most personally cheritable in the world.... except Al Gore of course.

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2005,08:10   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 06 2005,11:12)
What I did not say was to use only foreign aid as the calculus so please review the money given in total from all American sources not just the government allocation.

GDP is a great measure of economic activity for the denominator but the numerator has to include all sources of giving because Americans are the most personally cheritable in the world.... except Al Gore of course.

Hey - go read what you posted.  It is factually incorrect, and I documented that with links.  I can only go by what you actually wrote, not what you wish you had written.

Of course, just like the Bible, I suppose you are inerrant.  I see it makes it difficult for you to admit making a mistake.  It clearly demonstrates, however, you total and absolute lack of Intellectual Honesty.  It is here in the public domain for all to see.

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2005,09:15   

Quote (MidnightVoice @ Oct. 06 2005,11:02)
:02-->
Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 05 2005,17:02)
I just looked up the aid to developing countries as a percenmtage of GNP equivalent and per capita and gross dollars and USA leads in every category for the last 25 years at least. Try it yourself meatball.

Facts please not assertions... you read like an evolutionist.. oh thats right you are one.

Dear evopeach.  You specifically stated, and the quote is below, that "aid to developing countries as a percenmtage of GNP.....USA leads in every category for the last 25 years at least"  Apart from the spelling, that statement is incorrect.

Which is backed up according to this page:

http://www.oecd.org/documen....00.html

No doubt Evopeach will further demonstrate his lack of civility and respect for Christian principles by insulting me in response.  :D

--------------
Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2005,09:34   

Quote (Wonderpants @ Oct. 06 2005,14:15)
:02-->
Quote (MidnightVoice @ Oct. 06 2005,11:02)
[quote=evopeach,Oct. 05 2005,17:0]I just looked up the aid to developing countries as a percenmtage of GNP equivalent and per capita and gross dollars and USA leads in every category for the last 25 years at least. Try it yourself meatball.

Facts please not assertions... you read like an evolutionist.. oh thats right you are one.

Dear evopeach.  You specifically stated, and the quote is below, that "aid to developing countries as a percenmtage of GNP.....USA leads in every category for the last 25 years at least"  Apart from the spelling, that statement is incorrect.[/quote]
Which is backed up according to this page:

http://www.oecd.org/documen....00.html

No doubt Evopeach will further demonstrate his lack of civility and respect for Christian principles by insulting me in response.  <!--emo&:D

To quote Ghandi - I like your Christ.  It is your Christians I do not like.  :D

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2005,12:03   

The debate is that the US is stingy and ranks last in giving... the operative term is U.S. that is the entire citizenry and all gi9ving by all means countable. I never once said only foreign aid from the government.

Carol Adleman's article should suffuce... in fact you can go back another twenty years if you like.

International giving by American citizens, the private sector and nongovernmental groups is an important measure of U.S. foreign assistance and reveals that Americans are generous when it comes to helping others, says Carol Adelman, a specialist in foreign aid and development with the Hudson Institute in Washington.

In terms of official government foreign assistance, “the U.S. gives the most in absolute amounts, more than twice what the second ranked donor, Japan, gives,” said Adelman during a global Internet chat July 27.

But this number does not include substantial private foreign assistance, such as aid that comes from private donations, charities, religious associations and other nonprofit groups.

“Private international giving by Americans is over three and one-half times that of U.S. government foreign assistance,” Adelman told participants in the Internet chat. “When you take into account this U.S. private giving, our foreign assistance far exceeds other countries by any measure.”

A former presidential appointee at the U.S. Agency for International Development in charge of foreign aid programs to Asia, the Middle East and Central and Eastern Europe, Adelman specializes in international development, foreign aid, trade and global health issues. She has estimated that U.S. private international giving to the developing world exceeds $62 billion.

Addressing questions concerning American giving abroad, Adelman called the standard measure of U.S. foreign assistance “outdated” and “flawed.” The standard measure of foreign aid, which ranks the United States last in terms of the percentage of its Gross National Income, grossly underestimates the total amount of U.S. foreign assistance, she said.

Additionally, no standard measure of private foreign assistance exists, making it difficult to calculate a comprehensive total aid figure. To address this shortcoming, Adelman said, the Hudson Institute is developing the “Index of Global Philanthropy,” a new measuring tool to calculate private foreign aid "first from the United States, and hopefully soon from all countries.”

She said that in 2003, at least $7.5 billion worth of overseas aid came from Protestant, Catholic and Jewish organizations in the United States. “We do not have numbers for all religious organizations, and we believe that the $7.5 billion per year is grossly underestimated,” she said. “Our goal is to get these numbers over the coming years.”

Of course if partial truth, defining the terms of the debate and slander is permitted the evos can make their lies standup... but if the actual facts are logically and truthfully presented then evos lose

In this case do all the dollars count or do can you mystically differentiate between one dollar and another as to doing good to hurting people.

I counted all of them regardless of your assertions.

Simple as that.

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2005,03:22   

Once more those who cannot get it - I was pointing out a factual error in your post.  It is not my fault you posted it.  But it is interesting to see that you will not admit your error.  How very unscientific of you - it casts doubt on both your intellectual and moral credentials and honesty.

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2005,04:53   

Liar Liar Pants on Fire Midnight,

There is no factual error unless I adopt you definition of aid to developing countries as meaning only those dollars allocated by the feds as foreign aid. That is a convenient socialist U.N. sort of definition to support the view expressed here that we are stingy compared to Denmark.

Of course when direct charitable giving from people and companies is added the US swamps the field and that destroys your argument in toto so you have to resort to evo tricks like defining the terms absolutely to fit your position arbitrarily and then attacking those who don't except it. Just like defining science arbitrarily so no other approach to explanations is judged valid.

You are a liar, a cheat, a deceiver and an arrogant ass and I am not prepared to give any credibility to such people... period.

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2005,05:34   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 07 2005,09:53)
Liar Liar Pants on Fire Midnight,

There is no factual error unless I adopt you definition of aid to developing countries as meaning only those dollars allocated by the feds as foreign aid. That is a convenient socialist U.N. sort of definition to support the view expressed here that we are stingy compared to Denmark.

Of course when direct charitable giving from people and companies is added the US swamps the field and that destroys your argument in toto so you have to resort to evo tricks like defining the terms absolutely to fit your position arbitrarily and then attacking those who don't except it. Just like defining science arbitrarily so no other approach to explanations is judged valid.

You are a liar, a cheat, a deceiver and an arrogant ass and I am not prepared to give any credibility to such people... period.

Is there a ROFL smilie on this board?  I desperately need one right now.

You really are a peach, dear evo.  :D  And so full of juvenile insults, which makes me wonder how old you really are.

Never mind, your error is in writing, in the public domain, and perfectly clear for those with eyes to see.  As is you intellectually and morally despicable refusal to admit error.

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2005,07:29   

Your error is maifold in world view, philosophy, logic, ignorance and egomania.

My conclusions are backed up by the Hudson Institute and simply require that one consider the total dollars given by all Americans both through taxes and personal giving.

Your's is a narrow and inaccurate figure that doen't even consider the facts on the ground reality and actual effects.

Again its just the same old evo illogical mind and intellectual dishonesty we have seen for decades.

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2005,08:12   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 07 2005,12:29)
Your error is maifold in world view, philosophy, logic, ignorance and egomania.

My conclusions are backed up by the Hudson Institute and simply require that one consider the total dollars given by all Americans both through taxes and personal giving.

Your's is a narrow and inaccurate figure that doen't even consider the facts on the ground reality and actual effects.

Again its just the same old evo illogical mind and intellectual dishonesty we have seen for decades.

I repeat, I can only reply to what you actually wrote, and not what you meant to write.  And you still do not have the intellectual or moral honesty or courage to admit that you made an error in your post.

That fact alone speaks volumes about your character, truthfulness and intelligence, and indicates how little value the casual reader should give to the rest of your posts.  Add in your penchant for childish and baseless personal insults to all and sundry, and a pretty pathetic picture emerges.

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2005,09:37   

Here is a good reply you can copy and publish to demonstrate some capacity for honesty.

Evopeach,

I understand the context of the debate was my assertion that the US is one of the stingiest nations and peoples among all civilized nations when their support of developing nations is measured by aid to developing nations/GNP.

That of course in socialist countries and most others is 99% of their giving in total while in the USA it is only about 1/4th of the giving according to the Hudson Institute research (and other sources as well).

I agree that if one counts all giving as aid and not assume that unless it comes from the government its not aid and can't really help anyone then you are 100% right and I am 100% wrong.

I guess its true that your post never said let's be incomplete and inaccurate and not include charitable dollars in fact foreign aid was never even mentioned.

I guess if we want  the actual true numbers and have some feel for the actual good that is done in those countries rather than just making the US look bad compared to Denmark and puff up my left leaning socialist ego while championing atheism around the world and denigrating the religious community in the USA so I can continue to claim that atheist evos are morally superior and smarter than USA people of faith... well I suppose I owe you an apology for my intellectual dishonesty and I'll really try to debate from a position of truth telling from this point forward.

It will be difficult since half-truths, omission, misrepresentation, character assination, vitriolic personal attack, vendettas and blackmail are stock in trade for the evo community and such are built-in reactions from years of training and mind control ... but I will try.

Sincerely,

Midnight

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2005,10:10   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 07 2005,14:37)
Here is a good reply you can copy and publish to demonstrate some capacity for honesty.

Evopeach,

I understand the context of the debate was my assertion that the US is one of the stingiest nations and peoples among all civilized nations when their support of developing nations is measured by aid to developing nations/GNP.

That of course in socialist countries and most others is 99% of their giving in total while in the USA it is only about 1/4th of the giving according to the Hudson Institute research (and other sources as well).

I agree that if one counts all giving as aid and not assume that unless it comes from the government its not aid and can't really help anyone then you are 100% right and I am 100% wrong.

I guess its true that your post never said let's be incomplete and inaccurate and not include charitable dollars in fact foreign aid was never even mentioned.

I guess if we want  the actual true numbers and have some feel for the actual good that is done in those countries rather than just making the US look bad compared to Denmark and puff up my left leaning socialist ego while championing atheism around the world and denigrating the religious community in the USA so I can continue to claim that atheist evos are morally superior and smarter than USA people of faith... well I suppose I owe you an apology for my intellectual dishonesty and I'll really try to debate from a position of truth telling from this point forward.

It will be difficult since half-truths, omission, misrepresentation, character assination, vitriolic personal attack, vendettas and blackmail are stock in trade for the evo community and such are built-in reactions from years of training and mind control ... but I will try.

Sincerely,

Midnight

Oh you are a delight!  :D  Still not admitting to error, and still denigrating someone who has actually carried out long and short term foreign aid work in Africa and Asia.  :)

What a glowing example you are, and what a true representation of anti-evolutionists!  :D

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2005,05:28   

Oh mister holyman of charity riding on the taxpayers back as I supposed.

Go get a banner and wear it.

  
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2005,09:29   

Quote (evopeach @ Oct. 07 2005,14:37)
It will be difficult since half-truths, omission, misrepresentation, character assination, vitriolic personal attack, vendettas and blackmail are stock in trade for the evo community and such are built-in reactions from years of training and mind control ... but I will try.

I unreservedly admit that I'm speechless at this point.

You freely and repeatedly insult me and others who have treated you civilly solely because you don't like your shallow and blinkered little worldview being questioned, you lie, distort, demonstrate appalling ignorance, and evade awkward questions, and then you have the hypocrisy to whine about being subjected to the same treatment.

If there is a God, I hope he washes his hands of you.

--------------
Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
Hyperion



Posts: 31
Joined: June 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2005,18:57   

As to the original topic of the post, I refer interested readers to the Supreme Court decision in Tinker v. Des Moines.

The court ruled that while students do have a right to free speech in a school, siding with Tinker, this right was predicated on the premise that such speech would be non-disruptive and relevent to the class at hand.  Specifically, the example was given that a student had every right to express his political opinions on government policies...but only in a US Government class, and not in the middle of math class.

Furthermore, perhaps any concerns regarding the First Amendment implications involved in the teaching of evolution should be directed towards the Supreme Court justices who sided with the majority in Edwards, who seemed to find no First Amendment problems whatsoever.  Please do not discuss Constitutional Law until you have, I don't know, taken a few undergrad level cons law classes.

  
evopeach



Posts: 248
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2005,03:30   

Hyper,

Its a funny thing about courts and ruling s and such. For 200 years people of faith were the cornerstone of public policy in this country and since the liberals , atheists and evos have had their way for while you think its all settled.

Hold on tootsie... we'll see in the next year or so whether George Soros replaces George Washington or not.

Hey!! I'll settle for giving every kid the opportunity to take a one semester class using Michael Denton's book on your "Theory in Crises". Just reading it again for the fourth time and I forget how totally devastating it is for every aspect of your fairy tale ideas. And to think he a biologist and Medical doctor ahould have been the one exposing most vividly the abuse and misuse of Darwin's original thought's and to paper over his misgivings and concerns over the validity of his own claims. He just might have been the only true scientist and intellectually honest evo ever.

Thats it lead a campaign to get your man Denton into every classroom and let the kids sort it out.

Promise me you won't have he or his family destroyed if this works our. Your mafia has beaten this guy enough already.

  
Moderator



Posts: 32
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2005,04:51   

OK, there are definitely some people here posting in violation of the forum rules.

Read them, live them, or the IP bannings will begin.

I trust one reminder is sufficient unto the task.

  
Marion Delgado



Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2009,18:11   

I think prices for troll-thread have crashed on the market of ideas and free speech.

  
BWE



Posts: 1898
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 19 2009,02:30   

Quote (Marion Delgado @ May 17 2009,16:11)
I think prices for troll-thread have crashed on the market of ideas and free speech.

Dear lord. They're severing their ties with their dealers?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
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