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Jason Spaceman



Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2007,07:51   

Quote
By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor

PARIS (Reuters) - Pope Benedict, elaborating his views on evolution for the first time as Pontiff, says science has narrowed the way life's origins are understood and Christians should take a broader approach to the question.

The Pope also says the Darwinist theory of evolution is not completely provable because mutations over hundreds of thousands of years cannot be reproduced in a laboratory.

But Benedict, whose remarks were published on Wednesday in Germany in the book "Schoepfung und Evolution" (Creation and Evolution), praised scientific progress and did not endorse creationist or "intelligent design" views about life's origins.


Read it here.

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2007,07:56   

unlike Christinanity of course, which is "completely provable" as well all know, I mean they even found the tomb of Jesus the other day!

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2007,08:22   

When the Pope (or indeed anyone) says things like this my first question is always:

Oh yeah? How the fuck does he know that then?

Sadly I never seem to get an answer. Plenty of responses, no answers.

Louis

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Bye.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2007,17:59   

So the Pope's not an atheist  . . . . .?


Noooooo . . . . . REALLYYY ??????????


What a shocker.


I'm sure that takes Dembski completely by surprise . . . .

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2007,18:40   

Dembski was raised Catholic though. I wonder, since he seems to have married his soul to the Southern Baptist Convention, if that means he's rejected Catholicism and thinks they're heretics. Except that Behe is a Catholic (I think).

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2007,19:49   

I'm confused, Louis?  How does he know what?  That mutations spanning millions of years cannot be reproduced in the lab?  That he would even dare to make a comment?  What?

and yes, Behe is a catholic.

  
phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2007,20:00   

If science is too narrow, does that mean Genesis is also too narrow? Maybe His Holiness can show where Genesis is lacking.

Quote
In the book, Benedict defended what is known as "theistic evolution," the view held by Roman Catholic, Orthodox and mainline Protestant churches that God created life through evolution and religion and science need not clash over this.
That's very interesting Mr. Pope. So what part of Genesis is wrong? I guess he's saying that Genesis is some sort of allegory? When it says "created Adam from dirt and breathed the breath of life into him," that's just a metaphor for evolution? When it says he created trees and grass before he created the sun and the moon, that's just a metaphor for being way off?

Quote
"I would not depend on faith alone to explain the whole picture," he remarked during the discussion held at the papal summer palace in Castel Gandolfo outside Rome.
And by faith, you mean faith in the Bible. So basically he's saying that the Bible is unreliable as an explanation of the evolution of life.
Quote
"Just who is this 'nature' or 'evolution' as (an active) subject? It doesn't exist at all!" the Pope said.
Nature? What is this nature? It doesn't exist, I say!

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With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2007,20:31   

Quote (skeptic @ April 11 2007,19:49)
and yes, Behe is a catholic.

Nein!  Herr Doktor Behe has been excommunicated for being too stupid to be Catholic, und backing ID.

Pope Sturbanfuhrer und me, vas chust shooting the sheist with mein schnaps, und he stood up, raised his fists in the air, und said all IDers are to be dammed eternally!  Vat could I say?  You do NOT want to get Herr Pope Strubanfuher pissed off... THe last time someone pissed of a German Leader, things didn't work out all that well for a couple of years.  Poland und France are still not all that far away, if you know what I am saying to you. Jah?

{Please insert PhotoShopped image of Adolf wearing Pope Hat, or Benedict giving Nazi Salute}

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2007,20:50   

Quote
"Just who is this 'nature' or 'evolution' as (an active) subject? It doesn't exist at all!" the Pope said.

Benedict argued that evolution had a rationality that the theory of purely random selection could not explain.

"The process itself is rational despite the mistakes and confusion as it goes through a narrow corridor choosing a few positive mutations and using low probability," he said.
Oh, yeah, this idea again: "Logic exists, therefore a logical mind must have brought forth logic." Well, it's not the Pope's fault that our language assumes a subject but our language can construct things that are not there.

Crandaddy came to my blog and argued something like this - and he was very nice about it - we had a civil exchange - and I don't know if I really answered his questions, but I stated that the universe simply behaves as it does, whereas "logic" or "truth" are ideas that we derive by watching reality, but they are our own ideas, not existing in a Platonic plane out there somewhere.

I don't think I really got it until recently that God is a personality to people. I had spent my childhood reinterpreting the words of scripture in a humanistic manner - God as the universe, or as a principle, or as an algorithm, etc., until I finally realized that people want a personal God. I can't explain why that idea spoils all the mystery for me, because somehow this is wonderous and mysterious to believers, but it does, it ruins it. *shrug*  :)

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Evoken



Posts: 1
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2007,21:11   

Quote (Kristine @ April 11 2007,20:50)
Quote
Oh, yeah, this idea again: "Logic exists, therefore a logical mind must have brought forth logic."

I love it how the theists are reduced to talking about the origin of "logic" and "rationality". They have given up on scientific and evidential arguments for god because there simply is no evidence for it.

In my mind the arguments for logic and the like are just an attempt by the theist to draw attention away from the fact that there is no evidence for god.


Evo

  
Kristine



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Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2007,21:54   

I don't think it's a feint, Evoken. I remember taking a class about Hawkings A Brief History of Time and thinking, "The Big Bang happened before there was consciousness. Evolution happened before there was consciousness." For a while, even though I had no belief in God, I had a block about this. Then - I can't remember when - something changed and then I had no problem with it anymore.

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Lufeld



Posts: 19
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2007,19:11   

While the book is not yet available in the bookstores the text of the talk Cardinal Schönborn gave at the event in Castel Gandolfo is available on the webside of his diocese.
lecture Schönborn
The text is in German but the Cardinal is obviously very interested in the debate and has quite a couple of texts on evolution on his website. Some of them in English. See here and here and here.
Most of it is theology. But in his lecture from Castel Gandolfo Schönborn gives some of the creationist standard arguments. (For example "no missing links")
While Schönborn is of course not the pope he at least was invited to give this lecture at the event although there should be quite a couple of experts in the catholic church who do understand evolution theory quite well and are also trained in theology. Makes you wonder.

  
Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 13 2007,02:53   

Skeptic,

Look at title of thread. It says "Pope says science too narrow to explain creation". I want to know how he knows this and on what basis. Does Papa-Ratzi have even the merest scintilla of evidence or is it yet again an appeal to ignorance, personal incredulity and mystery from the institution that bought us tacit support of genocide, fighting funds and relocation for convicted paedophiles, and millions of deaths in the third world due to bronze age mythology inspired sex ed?

You know what, I'm going with the latter. I wish you christians would police your own rather than blaming it all on some fictional anti-christian agenda. But hey, what's two thousand years of lies, hypocrisy, misery, death and political power play between friends?

Louis

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Bye.

  
George



Posts: 314
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 13 2007,08:05   

Quote (phonon @ April 11 2007,20:00)
If science is too narrow, does that mean Genesis is also too narrow? Maybe His Holiness can show where Genesis is lacking.

   
Quote
In the book, Benedict defended what is known as "theistic evolution," the view held by Roman Catholic, Orthodox and mainline Protestant churches that God created life through evolution and religion and science need not clash over this.
That's very interesting Mr. Pope. So what part of Genesis is wrong? I guess he's saying that Genesis is some sort of allegory? When it says "created Adam from dirt and breathed the breath of life into him," that's just a metaphor for evolution? When it says he created trees and grass before he created the sun and the moon, that's just a metaphor for being way off?

Yes he's saying that Genesis is something like an allegory.  That's nothing new, as the Catholic church isn't fundamentalist (in the sense of believing the Bible is literally true.)  Genesis is the creation myth for Catholics- not literally true but pointing to a "higher truth".

   
Quote (phonon @ April 11 2007,20:00)
Quote
"I would not depend on faith alone to explain the whole picture," he remarked during the discussion held at the papal summer palace in Castel Gandolfo outside Rome.
And by faith, you mean faith in the Bible. So basically he's saying that the Bible is unreliable as an explanation of the evolution of life.

Yes.  A complete explanation at least.  He seems to be advocating some sort of directed evolution:
Quote
"The process itself is rational despite the mistakes and confusion as it goes through a narrow corridor choosing a few positive mutations and using low probability," he said.

Some people seem surprised that the Pope's Catholic and is pushing his belief that God had a big hand in the evolution of life.  He's the Pope for heaven's sake!  But it's interesting that he provides little comfort for IDists and creationists.  And that's welcome- I was worried about the Pope's position after Cardinal Schoenborn's comments.

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 13 2007,08:44   

Quote (Lufeld @ April 13 2007,03:11)
While the book is not yet available in the bookstores the text of the talk Cardinal Schönborn gave at the event in Castel Gandolfo is available on the webside of his diocese.
lecture Schönborn
The text is in German but the Cardinal is obviously very interested in the debate and has quite a couple of texts on evolution on his website. Some of them in English. See here and here and here.
Most of it is theology. But in his lecture from Castel Gandolfo Schönborn gives some of the creationist standard arguments. (For example "no missing links")
While Schönborn is of course not the pope he at least was invited to give this lecture at the event although there should be quite a couple of experts in the catholic church who do understand evolution theory quite well and are also trained in theology. Makes you wonder.

It certainly does make me wonder.

Its like he didn't even listen to that Pope before him.
Earlier today I gave Pope Benny a quick ring on his cellphone.

ring,ring (actually it was an Handel's Messiah ringtone so it went "Hallelujah" "Hallelujah" )

k.e: Hi is that you Benny?
Pope Benedict XVI:Vu ist dat?
k.e:Howeth Castle and Envrons or Humphrey Chimpden Earwicker take your pick.

Pope Benedict XVI: Oh, your being cryptic....Is that you, god?
k.e: .....Ah.............no actually, it's Stan.
Pope Benedict XVI:How ze 'ell deed you get my vone number?
k.e:It wasn't easy but I didn't hack Paris Hiltons phone number either.
Pope Benedict XVI:You haf Pariz 'iltons vone number?
k.e: Look lets cut to the chase, what's all this I hear about you siding with AFD on 'macroevolution'?
Pope Benedict XVI:Vu ist dis AFD?
k.e:Only the most batshit crazy creo reality denying nutcase on god's green earth. He makes a parody out of religion and the whole god thing look nutty.
Pope Benedict XVI:......und your point eez?
k.e:What about PJP2's words on Evolution?
Pope Benedict XVI:"Oh what's his name?..oh yeah wasn't he from Poland...ve can zend in ze panzers anytime ve like Bwhahahahahahahaha"

Anyway he's dead now and I'M THE FRIGGING POPE_A_RUNI NOW BUSTER!!!!!

FOR MY NEXT TRICK ....LOOK NOTHING UP MY SLEEVES (snickker)....WOMEN WILL STILL BE BORN WITHOUT PENISES.
GOD SAID SO.
AND SINCE I'VE GOT ONE (SOMEWHERE) AND SO HAVE ALL MY FELLOW MEMBERS OF GODS MAFIA ......WE GET TO SAY WHAT GOD SAID!!!!! NOW FUCK OFF!

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
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