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  Topic: Musgrave's ID Challenge, From PT< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,11:11   

Take the Intelligent Design Challenge!

Quote

 By Ian Musgrave on January 31, 2008 3:52 AM  | Permalink  | TrackBacks (0)

Determining where a genome has been produced or altered by an intelligent designer is a matter of some importance. Consider the claims that the HIV virus was engineered as a biowarfare weapon, or the concern that virulence genes from other organisms could be inserted into viruses and bacteria to “weaponise” them. For example the engineered mouse pox virus that turned lethal (Nature. 2001 May 17;411(6835):232-5 see also Nat Genet. 2001 Nov;29(3):253-6) and limits on the sequencing of the 1918 strain of the flu to stop flu from being weaponised (Fed Regist. 2005 Oct 20;70(202):61047-9,). A method that could reliably detect the action of human intelligent design in the genomes of microorganisms would be of significant advantage.

Thus we issue the “Intelligent Design Challenge”. Below the fold are 6 gene sequences. At least one of them has been produced by a human designer. All you have to do is to determine which one(s) have been acted on, what the designed sequence does, and explain the method you used to determine this (in sufficient detail to replicate your determination eg. if you used an approximation of Chaitin information, a brief description of the algorithm you used).

So have at it. The first successful determination of the designed sequence(s) and their function will win a copy of OpenLab 2007. Comments will be turned off for 24 hours so everyone can have a fair go at cracking the code.

Reminding everyone again, the comments will be opened at 10:30 pm Australian Central Daylight Savinng Time (GMT +10:30), 1 February.

Sequence 1: attatcacaa aatggtgtga tcttatcaat agcactactt gcttaactag ctaatgtcgt gcaattggag tagagaacac agaacgatta actagctaat ttttttagtt ggatggcaat tgttggaatt cacagctttt tagttggaat tttagttaat catcaaacac ttaaaataag taaaaagtat gttattttag gttcgatttt tccaattatg gcattaacaa atactcttgt

Sequence 2: gatagtagtg ggtggaatag tgaagaaaac gaagctaaaa gtgatgcgcc cctaagtaca ggagggggtg cttcttctgg aacatttaat aaatacctca acaccaagca agcgttagag agcatcggca tcttgtttga tggggatgga atgaggaatg tggttaccca actctattat gcttctacca gcaagctagc agtcaccaac aaccacattg tcgtgatggg taacagcttt

Sequence 3: attatcacaa aatggtgtga tcttatcaat agcactactt gcttttttta gttggatggc aattgttgga attcacagct ttttagttgg aattttagtt aatcatcaaa cacttaaaat aagtaaaaag tatgttattt taggttcgat ttttccaatt atggcattaa caaatactct tgtaattaga aaaaaattaa aagctttatt aggagagggt aaggttcaaa aaggactcaa

Sequence 4: agtagtgggt ggaatagtgt taactagcta agtagaaaac accgaacgaa ttaattctac gattaccgtg actgagttaa ctagctaaaa gaaaacgaag ctaaaagtga tgcgccccta agtacaggag ggggtgcttc ttctggaaca tttaataaat acctcaacac caagcaagcg ttagagagca tcggcatctt gtttgatggg gatggaatga ggaatgtggt tacccaactc

Sequence 5: ttttatttgt ttaatagtta aaaaaagcgt taactagcta atgcataaac gacatcgcta atgactgtct ttatgatgaa ttaactagct aatgggtcga tgtttgatgt tatggagcag caacgatgtt acgcagcagg gcagtcgccc taaaacaaag ttaaacatca tgttatgttt tatctatttt attagttaaa aaagttttga atttttatct atttttagtt aataaaagtc

Sequence 6: ggagggagat catcagatca aagtaataaa ttcaccaagt acctcaacac caagcaagca ttggaaagga tcggcatctt gtttgatggg gatggaatga ggaatgtggt tacccaactc taccaaccca acaaggtgaa aagtggtcaa tatcaacaaa ataacaccta caacaggtta attgagcctg acaatgcaac aagtgcagcg agcagcatga ccagcttgtt aaagctgttg



Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Jan. 31 2008,11:11

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Annyday



Posts: 583
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,14:11   

I approve.

Would a proof of perfect secrecy also earn the prize? I realize it's not a cryptosystem per se, but the same approach applies and I strongly suspect it's the case.

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"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
jeannot



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,14:26   

Turn on the nixplanatory filter!

So Bill, which one has more CSI?

  
guthrie



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,15:04   

Has Dembski ever released his source code?

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,15:07   

Quote (guthrie @ Jan. 31 2008,15:04)
Has Dembski ever released his source code?

Yes.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
guthrie



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,15:13   

Oh, ok, thanks.  I meant it as much a joke as anything.  But I note from a quick scan that it seems he fouled that up pretty comprehensively anyway.  

I can make nothing out of the strings of letters in Musgraves challenge.

  
Mr_Christopher



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,18:04   

Speaking of frauds, Ian sent an email to Dembski inviting him to play.  Dembski just posted about it here

How long until Dembski offers a reward for anyone who can solve it - for him.

This is brilliant.  I predict no ID theorist is going to solve it and instead they'll point out how challenges like this lead to Stalin, Hitler, Satan Worship, etc.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
SpeedDemon



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,18:40   

What's to stop the good Dr. Dr. from claiming they're all designed?


SD

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,18:49   

Quote (SpeedDemon @ Jan. 31 2008,18:40)
What's to stop the good Dr. Dr. from claiming they're all designed?


SD

Someone just did that in the comments.

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"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

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Annyday



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Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,18:57   

Man, these comments are richly dumb.

Nullasalus:
Quote
The amusing thing is, the best that Ian Musgrave can hope to prove is that nature may fundamentally be designed, yet we may not be aware of it. Somehow, I don’t think that’s quite the point he wishes to make.


How does it make that point, precisely? By pointing out that you can't detect "design"? That would make ID the science of "we think it happened, but the evidence has all been randomized". Oooh, that's not much of a science at all, is it? It sounds kind of like guessing.

Patrick:
Quote
Hmph…my immediate reaction is that only 480 informational bits are required to encode each of those sequences. Oops?


I'm pretty sure Ian already knows this. Hell, I noticed it too. If you can't detect design in so much as a 480-bit sequence, how could you be expected to detect it in general?

I'm gonna reiterate that I'm pretty sure you could positively demonstrate the impossibility of detecting design in these sequences, except possibly by brute-force comparison to known sequences (and wouldn't that be a bitch). This is a subversion of the initial intent, but it does answer the implicit question regarding design detection. :p

--------------
"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
SpeedDemon



Posts: 22
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,18:58   

Quote (Hermagoras @ Jan. 31 2008,18:49)
Someone just did that in the comments.


If fit wasn't so sad it would be funny.

SD

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,19:01   

Quote (Hermagoras @ Jan. 31 2008,18:49)
Quote (SpeedDemon @ Jan. 31 2008,18:40)
What's to stop the good Dr. Dr. from claiming they're all designed?


SD

Someone just did that in the comments.

I read that. larrynormanfan(which I initially read as "larryfafarman"):
Quote
If the “non-designed” ones are in nature, then they’re all designed! Where’s my book?

Crap like that takes all the fun out of sockpuppetry. How does one top that?

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1of63



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Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,19:11   

Quote (SpeedDemon @ Jan. 31 2008,18:40)
What's to stop the good Dr. Dr. from claiming they're all designed?


SD

Quote
What's to stop the good Dr. Dr. from claiming they're all designed?


The chance that one of them is a random sequence of letters which would show the Explanatory Sphincter is a bunch of crap?

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I set expectations at zero, and FL limbos right under them. - Tracy P. Hamilton

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,20:29   

I identified two out of three of the altered ones correctly. Specifics deferred until Ian reveals the set later on on PT.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,20:40   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-167649

DLH needs info on the designer to proceed...



Quote
8

DLH

01/31/2008

8:52 pm
Dr. Ian Musgrave may have used DNA sequences he was familiar with. See:

Ian Musgrave’spublications

In his expresses his understanding of Intelligent Design:


“Intelligent design, the idea that if we can’t describe the evolution of a given biological system on a mutation by mutation basis, then something, somewhere, somehow designed that biological system via unknown processes, . . .”

He provides his perspective on abiogenesis calculations:
Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculations


is that how the EF works?

--------------
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Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,22:12   

I'd be surprised if Ian used sequences he wasn't familiar with, which would mean he wouldn't know how to score entries to the challenge.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,22:32   

Quote (SpeedDemon @ Jan. 31 2008,17:58)
 
Quote (Hermagoras @ Jan. 31 2008,18:49)
Someone just did that in the comments.


If fit wasn't so sad it would be funny.

SD

Shaner74  
Quote
Well at least we know that ID has some people very scared. You don’t issue challenges to those you don’t fear.

Jebus these people are full of themselves, no?

Okay, being a nonscientist, I'm willing to say what these hem-hawers are not able to admit: I don't know how to even begin to formulate the answer.

There. That didn't kill me, Shaner. :)

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Nomad



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,00:00   

Quote
Well at least we know that ID has some people very scared. You don’t issue challenges to those you don’t fear.


The thing is.. don't you issue challenges to people you think you can beat?  I don't issue a challenge to a heavyweight boxer to meet me in the ring.  I don't challenge Yo Yo Ma to a.. Cello off.. whatever that would be.  Sorry, I don't know where that came from.. I was thinking of a musician and for some reason he's the first think that came into my head.  I mean I could have said challenge Tom Scholz to a guitar solo contest.

To challenge them is to admit fear.  To ignore them is to admit fear.  Would kissing them full on the lips be to admit fear?

First person to post a picture of Denyse gets a flaming bag of dog poo left on their doorstop.  Not her.  Anyone but her.



edited to ward off possible responses involving Granny Spice.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,00:12   

Quote (Nomad @ Feb. 01 2008,00:00)
Quote
Well at least we know that ID has some people very scared. You don’t issue challenges to those you don’t fear.


The thing is.. don't you issue challenges to people you think you can beat?  I don't issue a challenge to a heavyweight boxer to meet me in the ring.  I don't challenge Yo Yo Ma to a.. Cello off.. whatever that would be.  Sorry, I don't know where that came from.. I was thinking of a musician and for some reason he's the first think that came into my head.  I mean I could have said challenge Tom Scholz to a guitar solo contest.

To challenge them is to admit fear.  To ignore them is to admit fear.  Would kissing them full on the lips be to admit fear?

First person to post a picture of Denyse gets a flaming bag of dog poo left on their doorstop.  Not her.  Anyone but her.



edited to ward off possible responses involving Granny Spice.

come and get me big guy.


nom nom nom nom nom

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
BWE



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,00:36   

Quote (Annyday @ Jan. 31 2008,18:57)
Man, these comments are richly dumb.

Nullasalus:
Quote
The amusing thing is, the best that Ian Musgrave can hope to prove is that nature may fundamentally be designed, yet we may not be aware of it. Somehow, I don’t think that’s quite the point he wishes to make.


How does it make that point, precisely? By pointing out that you can't detect "design"? That would make ID the science of "we think it happened, but the evidence has all been randomized". Oooh, that's not much of a science at all, is it? It sounds kind of like guessing.

Patrick:
Quote
Hmph…my immediate reaction is that only 480 informational bits are required to encode each of those sequences. Oops?


I'm pretty sure Ian already knows this. Hell, I noticed it too. If you can't detect design in so much as a 480-bit sequence, how could you be expected to detect it in general?

I'm gonna reiterate that I'm pretty sure you could positively demonstrate the impossibility of detecting design in these sequences, except possibly by brute-force comparison to known sequences (and wouldn't that be a bitch). This is a subversion of the initial intent, but it does answer the implicit question regarding design detection. :p

I was thinking brute force. Dammit, one of the guys around here must have software that does that. [looks around]

But unfortunately, I doubt I would recognize it.
???

--------------
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When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

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Bob O'H



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,01:16   

Quote
except possibly by brute-force comparison to known sequences (and wouldn't that be a bitch)

That's why proper scientists BLAST them.

Bob

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
raguel



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,01:18   

about the 480 bit thing:

I don't have much background in any of the relevant fields but I do have a few questions (for the purpose of this discussion, let's assume design can be detected in 480+ bit sequences):

1. what percentage of genes are 480+ bits?

2. have any ID proponents run calculations on these genes?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10756
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,01:31   

Quote (Annyday @ Jan. 31 2008,18:57)
Man, these comments are richly dumb.

Nullasalus:
Quote
The amusing thing is, the best that Ian Musgrave can hope to prove is that nature may fundamentally be designed, yet we may not be aware of it. Somehow, I don’t think that’s quite the point he wishes to make.


How does it make that point, precisely? By pointing out that you can't detect "design"? That would make ID the science of "we think it happened, but the evidence has all been randomized". Oooh, that's not much of a science at all, is it? It sounds kind of like guessing.

Patrick:
Quote
Hmph…my immediate reaction is that only 480 informational bits are required to encode each of those sequences. Oops?


I'm pretty sure Ian already knows this. Hell, I noticed it too. If you can't detect design in so much as a 480-bit sequence, how could you be expected to detect it in general?

I'm gonna reiterate that I'm pretty sure you could positively demonstrate the impossibility of detecting design in these sequences, except possibly by brute-force comparison to known sequences (and wouldn't that be a bitch). This is a subversion of the initial intent, but it does answer the implicit question regarding design detection. :p

500 bits is supposed to be the threshold for CSI .. apparently the probability of random occurrence > UPB.


Sadly...

http://www-lmmb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/papers/ev/horserace.html

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Annyday



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,03:23   

DaveScot:
Quote
I can give him the method ahead of time. We’d compare the suspect gene to a full genome sequence of the closest relatives we could find in the genome database. We’d then take the closest matching gene, apply the principles Mike Behe described in “The Edge of Evolution”, and from the sequence deviations find if the suspect gene goes beyond the edge of evolution or not.


DaveScot's basically saying he'd brute force it compared to known genomes, right? I mean, that might work here, but it won't work as a general "design detection tool".

I'll be interested to read about what gives these sequences away, at any rate.

--------------
"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
Annyday



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Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,03:29   

Patrick already did it, nevermind. Brute force is the way to go, it seems. He seems to have dodged the fundamental point of the exercise, but hey.

--------------
"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10756
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,03:45   

Quote (Annyday @ Feb. 01 2008,03:29)
Patrick already did it, nevermind. Brute force is the way to go, it seems. He seems to have dodged the fundamental point of the exercise, but hey.

He didn't do it. He googled it. Can we do that for "is there a god"?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Mr_Christopher



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,09:29   

interesting to note the difference in reaction to Ian's challenge.

Look here to see how PT readers jump at the opportunity to identify the intelligent designer.  Throw anything sciency at the PTers and watch them jump all over it.  

Contrast that with the Dembski cultists seen here.  One guy Googles for the answer, everyone else claims persecution or just whines (subtle difference) and complains the challenge is not fair.  

Not a single Dembski cultist seems to have made any attempt to indentify the intelligent designer yet they are the intelligent designer "experts".  Dembski has all but ignored it which is telling in itself.  What a perfect opportunity for Dembski to demonstrate his ability to detect design and possibly earn at least a grain of respect from his critics.

It would be interesting to take the challenge and all the responses and show them to a school board and have them guess which group was from the ID camp and which one was from the evolution camp.

And they want to teach this crap in our public science classes.

Too funny.  What tards.  

Oh and Casey Luskin is up to his dishonest tricks as usual.

Here's to you, Casey "don't show my face" Luskin!



Oh, and yes the plant in that photo did in fact try to solve Ian's design detection challenge while Luskin, the design detection expert, did not.

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,13:01   

What I sent to Ian was based upon the "Specified Anti-Information" (SAI) concept. I used the Unix "compress" utility as a computable approach to algorithmic complexity, ordered the strings from shortest to longest "compress" output length, and said that was a basic relative ranking of how likely the string was to be the result of a short program. Strings 5, 3, and 1 were the shortest of the set that way; 5 and 1 were in the "human designed" set. That's with *no* "side information", *no* BLAST, *no* Googling, and *no* Wired.

Several years back, I had a copy of the "genecompress" program. Somehow that's gone missing. I'd be interested to know whether it ranks the strings in the same way as "compress".

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,15:53   

Don't these poor ignorant fools realize that saying 'Hey, they are all designed sequences' per their religious mantra means that the EF can never ever ever ever tell you jack shit about design detection since everything is designed?

Patrick never understood this point that Sally_T was pointing out to him in the smears of peanut butter.  Perhaps it is time for her to revisit her young friend.

Bob Good On You for the knowledge of possible designers bit I didn't think of that'un.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Steverino



Posts: 411
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,17:04   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Feb. 01 2008,00:12)
Quote (Nomad @ Feb. 01 2008,00:00)
 
Quote
Well at least we know that ID has some people very scared. You don’t issue challenges to those you don’t fear.


The thing is.. don't you issue challenges to people you think you can beat?  I don't issue a challenge to a heavyweight boxer to meet me in the ring.  I don't challenge Yo Yo Ma to a.. Cello off.. whatever that would be.  Sorry, I don't know where that came from.. I was thinking of a musician and for some reason he's the first think that came into my head.  I mean I could have said challenge Tom Scholz to a guitar solo contest.

To challenge them is to admit fear.  To ignore them is to admit fear.  Would kissing them full on the lips be to admit fear?

First person to post a picture of Denyse gets a flaming bag of dog poo left on their doorstop.  Not her.  Anyone but her.



edited to ward off possible responses involving Granny Spice.

come and get me big guy.


nom nom nom nom nom

eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!....I just got one of those "piss shivers"!

Thanks a whole bunch!

--------------
- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

   
Nomad



Posts: 311
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,18:06   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Feb. 01 2008,00:12)
come and get me big guy.


nom nom nom nom nom



In retrospect.. I'm amazed how few pictures of flaming dog poo I could find on the Internet.  I thought this kind of humor worked well on the collection of tubes.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,19:38   

Nomad I'm sure you have noticed by now but your image function just copied my picture I think.

If I had a bag of flaming dog poo that ugly I'd shave it's morphodyke ass, tell it to go fuck itself and teach it to walk backwards.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2132
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,11:44   

My musings.  Whilst you're doing that, I'm enjoying watching getting the Welsh getting hammered.

Bob
ETA: OK, England getting hammered.  *whimper*

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,10:35   

Hmm. When the comments were disabled on the PT thread for this, the form for entering a comment didn't disappear - it just mutated into a now nonfunctional vestigial organ. :p

  
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