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Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,18:32   

PHILO 7544 The Coherence of Intelligent Design, William A. Dembski
[doctoral seminar; spring 2008]


Quote
[WmAD1] William A. Dembski, No Free Lunch: Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased without Intelligence (Lanham, Md.: Rowman and Littlefield,
2002).

[WmAD2] William A. Dembski, ed., Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing (Wilmington, Delaware: ISI Books, 2004).

[NAM] Neil A. Manson, ed., God and Design: The Teleological Argument and Modern Science (London: Routledge, 2003).

[AM] Angus Menuge, Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science (Lanham, Md.: Rowman and Littlefield, 2004).

[DR] Del Ratzsch, Nature, Design, and Science: The Status of Design in Natural  Science (Albany, N.Y.: SUNY Press, 2001).

[Y&E] Matt Young and Taner Edis, eds., Why Intelligent Design Fails: A Scientific Critique of the New Creationism (New Brunswick, N.J..: Rutgers University
Press, 2004)


I never read Del Ratzsch, nor Menuge.   I thought I had read "God and Design" but is is not in my bibliography.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,20:33   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 04 2008,18:32)
PHILO 7544 The Incoherence of Intelligent Design, William A. Dembski
[doctoral seminar; spring 2008]


Quote
[WmAD1] William A. Dembski, No Free Lunch: Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased without Intelligence (Lanham, Md.: Rowman and Littlefield,
2002).

[WmAD2] William A. Dembski, ed., Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing (Wilmington, Delaware: ISI Books, 2004).

[NAM] Neil A. Manson, ed., God and Design: The Teleological Argument and Modern Science (London: Routledge, 2003).

[AM] Angus Menuge, Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science (Lanham, Md.: Rowman and Littlefield, 2004).

[DR] Del Ratzsch, Nature, Design, and Science: The Status of Design in Natural †Science (Albany, N.Y.: SUNY Press, 2001).

[Y&E] Matt Young and Taner Edis, eds., Why Intelligent Design Fails: A Scientific Critique of the New Creationism (New Brunswick, N.J..: Rutgers University
Press, 2004)


I never read Del Ratzsch, nor Menuge. † I thought I had read "God and Design" but is is not in my bibliography.

Here you go Bill - I fixed that typo for you.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,20:40   

I was surprised (again) at the egotism of Dembski.  Two of his books, which are not all that different, but no Behe, Wells or Johnson.  I wouldn't teach a course on IDC without all of them.

On the pro-science I would use WIDF, Forrest and Gross, and the Dover Decision by Jones.  Lighter reading would be "40 days and 40 nights"

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,21:02   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 04 2008,20:40)
I was surprised (again) at the egotism of Dembski. †Two of his books, which are not all that different, but no Behe, Wells or Johnson. †I wouldn't teach a course on IDC without all of them.

On the pro-science I would use WIDF, Forrest and Gross, and the Dover Decision by Jones. †Lighter reading would be "40 days and 40 nights"

Yeah - I can't imagine having to listen to him pontificate for hours about his favorite subject. † No, not ID - I think his favorite subject is Dr. Dr. William A. Dembski.

On the other hand, it would be kind of fun to ask him to tell the class about a couple more Just So Stories.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,21:35   

I gave a 5-day seminar on evolution/creation, and basically had 3 texts for the students: Scott's "Evolution and Creationism", "Signs of Intelligence" to let the IDC advocates make their own arguments, and "Why Intelligent Design Fails" for the rebuttal.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,22:36   

Quote
I never read Del Ratzsch, nor Menuge.


Menuge is a philosopher of science who spoke at the Kansas Board of Education Science Standards fiasco.

Since I'm on the road, I don't have my notes in front of me, but he basically took an intellectually relative stance to science education.  At some point he argued something like: we should let students guide their own education in regard to subject matter and grade them according to their take on the subject.

I'll have to see if I can get my notes emailed to me; it was a very weird 45 minutes.

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2008,09:23   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 04 2008,20:40)
I was surprised (again) at the egotism of Dembski. †Two of his books, which are not all that different, but no Behe, Wells or Johnson. †I wouldn't teach a course on IDC without all of them.

On the pro-science I would use WIDF, Forrest and Gross, and the Dover Decision by Jones. †Lighter reading would be "40 days and 40 nights"

I don't think Dembski uderstands biology, thus Behe and Wells are excluded by him via natural selection.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
JohnW



Posts: 2767
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2008,11:38   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 04 2008,18:40)
I was surprised (again) at the egotism of Dembski. †Two of his books, which are not all that different, but no Behe, Wells or Johnson. †I wouldn't teach a course on IDC without all of them.

On the pro-science I would use WIDF, Forrest and Gross, and the Dover Decision by Jones. †Lighter reading would be "40 days and 40 nights"

Behe accepts common descent and an old Earth. †I don't have a link, but I remember the good doctor doctor hinting that he accepts neither. †Plus, given the venue, his audience is going to consist of YECs. †So leaving out Behe, at least, doesn't surprise me at all.


Edited to add: †I just noticed the epigraph on Dembski's page:
Quote
What you believe to be true will control you whether it's true or not.
- Jeremy La Borde

There's a nasty smell and a cloud of greenish vapour where my irony meter used to be.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Gunthernacus



Posts: 235
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2008,14:11   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 05 2008,11:38)

Behe accepts common descent and an old Earth.  I don't have a link, but I remember the good doctor doctor hinting that he accepts neither.  Plus, given the venue, his audience is going to consist of YECs.  So leaving out Behe, at least, doesn't surprise me at all.


Edited to add:  I just noticed the epigraph on Dembski's page:
   
Quote
What you believe to be true will control you whether it's true or not.
- Jeremy La Borde

There's a nasty smell and a cloud of greenish vapour where my irony meter used to be.

 
Quote
Dr. Dr. Give Me the News:
For the record: I personally donít believe in common descent...


--------------
Given that we are all descended from Adam and Eve...genetic defects as a result of intra-family marriage would not begin to crop up until after the first few dozen generations. - Dr. Hugh Ross

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2008,14:26   

[quote=JohnW,Mar. 05 2008,11:38]Edited to add:  I just noticed the epigraph on Dembski's page:
 [quote]What you believe to be true will control you whether it's true or not.
- Jeremy La Borde

This is exactly the story of Dembski's life.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2008,16:38   

It's not on his reading list, but I notice that Introduction to Probability Models is still listed as unpurchased on Dembski's  Amazon wish list.

Maybe we should all chip in and buy it for him, so that he can finally understand that probability stuff.

--------------
-Tom Ames

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2008,20:31   

Tom Ames - Great Catch dude!

It also looks like he's gettting ready to do a little St. Paddy's Day shopping for a certain litltle Canadian "writer" he knows:

Developing Proofreading and Editing Skills †
by Sue C Camp (Author)
Avg customer review: † (1)
15 used & new from $7.34
added September 18, 2003

Copyediting: A Practical Guide †
by Karen Judd (Author)
Avg customer review: † (9)
Price: $24.95
added September 18, 2003

Words into Type (3rd Edition) †
by Marjorie E. Skillin (Author), Robert Malcolm Gay

Check out the dates of his wish list books. †Pretty sad.
If he weren't such a dick I would feel sorry for him.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JohnW



Posts: 2767
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,11:16   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 05 2008,18:31)
Tom Ames - Great Catch dude!

It also looks like he's gettting ready to do a little St. Paddy's Day shopping for a certain litltle Canadian "writer" he knows:

Developing Proofreading and Editing Skills †
by Sue C Camp (Author)
Avg customer review: † (1)
15 used & new from $7.34
added September 18, 2003

Copyediting: A Practical Guide †
by Karen Judd (Author)
Avg customer review: † (9)
Price: $24.95
added September 18, 2003

Words into Type (3rd Edition) †
by Marjorie E. Skillin (Author), Robert Malcolm Gay

Check out the dates of his wish list books. †Pretty sad.
If he weren't such a dick I would feel sorry for him.

I think these might be a little over Do'L's head.  I'd recommend starting out with English As She Is Spoke.

As a statistician, I was drawn to the first item on Dr Dr D's list.  Magnificent stuff: not just sciency but mathematicsy too!  If you assume God exists, Bayes' Theorem states that you'll think God exists.  Hold the front page!

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,11:21   

The Morphodyke is Canadian, eh?  Shouldn't she get a English as a second language book?

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,12:33   

There's this also:
An Elementary Introduction to Mathematical Finance: Options and other Topics.

Evidence that barbeque sales are up in Riesel? Or maybe there's an emerging market in brisket futures.

--------------
-Tom Ames

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,13:34   

Quote (Tom Ames @ Mar. 06 2008,12:33)
There's this also:
An Elementary Introduction to Mathematical Finance: Options and other Topics.

Evidence that barbeque sales are up in Riesel? Or maybe there's an emerging market in brisket futures.

If he's smart, he's reading up on how to short ID Futures...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,16:16   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 06 2008,11:34)
If he's smart, he's reading up on how to short ID Futures...

I wonder if we can get TradeSports to open books on Darwinism's Waterloo and The Triumph of Intelligent Design. It would be a great way to fleece the true believers of something more valuable than phantom bottles of single malt.

Edit (woo-hoo!): It turns out that InTrade will take suggestions for markets. I'm going to start a new thread to explore this idea.

Edited by Tom Ames on Mar. 06 2008,14:21

--------------
-Tom Ames

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,18:22   

Quote (Tom Ames @ Mar. 06 2008,16:16)
Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 06 2008,11:34)
If he's smart, he's reading up on how to short ID Futures...

I wonder if we can get TradeSports to open books on Darwinism's Waterloo and The Triumph of Intelligent Design. It would be a great way to fleece the true believers of something more valuable than phantom bottles of single malt.

Edit (woo-hoo!): It turns out that InTrade will take suggestions for markets. I'm going to start a new thread to explore this idea.

Great!  I haven't lost nearly enough money on bad option contracts yet - my family and I are still eating.

I just can't wait to see a whole new way to lose money without going to Vegas.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2132
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2008,01:07   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 06 2008,11:16)
As a statistician, I was drawn to the first item on Dr Dr D's list.  Magnificent stuff: not just sciency but mathematicsy too!  If you assume God exists, Bayes' Theorem states that you'll think God exists.  Hold the front page!

Have you read Dembski's Jesus Tomb "paper" (pdf)?  He says just that about Jesus' resurrection.  Go straight to Section 7: it's better for your sanity that you skip the rest.

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
dheddle



Posts: 540
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2008,12:30   

Bob O'H:

Quote

Have you read Dembski's Jesus Tomb "paper"


Ugh. I couldn't finish reading. I hate any application of Bayes's theorem that is not perfectly straightforward. Otherwise you get into the lesser known WoodyHayes's theorem, which is that with care taken to be sufficiently pedantic, wordy, and vague in oneís assumptions, one can use Bayes's theorem to construct a passably sophisticated argument (about either or even both sides of a debate) that is impenetrable enough to convince the already convinced and to bore everyone else to death or submission. (*yawn*)

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
JohnW



Posts: 2767
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2008,12:50   

Quote (dheddle @ Mar. 10 2008,10:30)
Bob O'H:

†  
Quote

Have you read Dembski's Jesus Tomb "paper"


Ugh. I couldn't finish reading. I hate any application of Bayes's theorem that is not perfectly straightforward. Otherwise you get into the lesser known WoodyHayes's theorem, which is that with care taken to be sufficiently pedantic, wordy, and vague in oneís assumptions, one can use Bayes's theorem to construct a passably sophisticated argument (about either or even both sides of a debate) that is impenetrable enough to convince the already convinced and to bore everyone else to death or submission. (*yawn*)

Exactly.  Bayes' theorem works beautifully if the prior probabilities are properly measured, or otherwise quantifiable.  Once you start making assumptions about unmeasured values, it can easily be misused, especially when (as Dembski is here) you're sure of the conclusion you're trying to demonstrate.  

I will qualify this by saying I haven't read it all (my brain went into emergency shutdown), but the "paper" seems to be simply apologetics - throwing a lot of probababble around to justify what the intended audience already thinks is true.  The technical term is argumentum ad making shit up.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2132
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2008,13:53   

Quote
I will qualify this by saying I haven't read it all (my brain went into emergency shutdown), but the "paper" seems to be simply apologetics - throwing a lot of probababble around to justify what the intended audience already thinks is true.  The technical term is argumentum ad making shit up.

Ah but the beauty of Bayes' theorem is that it formalises the process.  The paper (and no, I haven't read it all either.  Same reason) demonstrates this perfectly - if you're reasonably numerate, it's clear this is what's happening.  Well, unless you're up against obfuscationary writings of of a high a level as Dembski's.

Incidentally, the real Bayesian action nowadays is in the likelihood, not the prior.  Graphical models rule!

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
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