1 A (Continuing) previously held conclusions.

2 But as I understand the scientific community to work,

3 and again, I'll have to say this, that those are put forth

4 for scrutiny.

5 That's how science grows. Science is a growing

6 process. We certainly hope that it never stagnates.

7 And in this process requires people to put forth their

8 materials to the scientific community and allow the

9 scientific community to evaluate those materials. And

10 through evaluation we grow. We may sidestep a little, but

11 we grow.

12 So the scrutiny part of it is very important. It may be

13 one of the most valuable things that we can do in science,

14 is to have someone present something to the scientific

15 community where all of the constructs or all of the pieces

16 don't necessarily fit together. It gives scientists

17 challenge.

18 Q Who asked you to serve on the — for lack of a

19 better word — the preliminary committee in response to

20 the request of the school board to come up with the

21 creation unit?

22 A Doctor Harold Measel. He is the assistant superin-

23 tendent in charge of secondary instruction — I believe

24 that's his correct title — in our school district,

25 Pulaski County Special School District, Little Rock,



1 Q Did you volunteer to serve on the committee?

2 A Yes, I did.

3 Q Can you tell me if Larry Fisher was on that

4 committee?

5 A Larry Fisher was on that committee. It was— Larry

6 Fisher had to be there since be brought the materials, yes.

7 Q Did he serve on the committee?

8 A I don't know that be served on the committee or if

9 he was the person who brought the committee. I don't know

10 exactly how to define your term "served."

11 Q Well, did he— When you all were reaching a

12 consensus, as I understand, a unanimous consensus among

13 you, was he consulted about the merits of the evidence?

14 A I don't believe Larry Fisher, in our discussions as

15 we went around the table, offered any. Privately, outside

16 getting a cup of coffee, Larry and I talked about a couple

17 of the points, but just very simply.

18 But as we went around the table, each person— You see,

19 our purpose there, as I understand it, was, the first

20 meeting was to take the books home, evaluate them, and

21 then those persons that did the evaluation, to bring back

22 that evaluation.

23 Since Larry Fisher's purpose in that committee was not

24 to evaluate the books, he did not take part in the process

25 of explaining the evaluations.


1 Q Okay. I think I understand what you are saying.

2 Now then in your deposition, you advised me that for

3 something to be science, it would have to be published by

4 reputable sources, did you not?

5 A I believe that was one of the criteria that I stated

6 in there, yes.

7 Q And what other criteria would there be?

8 A The other criteria, for something to be accepted as

9 science, it must have been arrived at through the

10 scientific processes. It must have validity, internal

11 validity.

12 In other words, was the document constructed in the

13 manner in which science accepts the constructs. Was the

14 person who did this, was he a recognized person operating

15 in that field by our national community of science.

16 Pardon me. Our international community of science.

17 Q So it would be safe to say you consider science that

18 which is accepted in the scientific community?

19 A Yes, I would.

20 Q Now then, I want to go over briefly with you the

21 information in your chemistry book and your physics book

22 which would, as you see it, trigger Act 590.

23 Do you have your chemistry book with you?

24 A I do.

25 Q Would you please tell me the first page in numerical


1 Q (Continuing) order that you feel would trigger Act

2 590?

3 A I don't have these pages marked, so it's going to

4 take me a minute. If you can point to a page, I'll sure

5 turn to it.

6 Q Let's try page 373, fossil fuels.

7 A Okay.

8 Q And how would that trigger Act 590 in your judgment?

9 A May I read the sentence?

10 Q Yes.

11 A On the Section 18.5, Natural Gas and Petroleum, the

12 second paragraph says, "Natural gas and petroleum were

13 probably formed by the decay of plants and animals living

14 millions of years ago."

15 Q I believe the next pages were around page 591 in

16 chapter 30?

17 A Yes.

18 Q I believe that has to do with radioactive dating?

19 A It has— The entire chapter has to do with radio-

20 activity.

21 Q Do you usually teach chapter 30 in your chemistry

22 course?

23 A No, not in chemistry.

24 Q Now then, would it be— Can you think of any way

25 that you could balance the reference on page 373 as to


1 Q (Continuing) fossil fuels being formed millions of

2 years ago.

3 A Wait a minute. What page?

4 Q Page 373.

5 A Will you repeat the question?

6 Q Is there any way that you can think of right now on

7 the stand that you could balance "millions of years ago"

8 in your textbook?

9 A That I could balance millions of years ago in my

10 textbook? What kind of balance are you asking? Are you

11 asking me to give Act 590 balance?

12 Q As I understand it, your position is that "balanced"

13 means "equal."

14 A "Balanced" means "equal dignity."

15 Q Now then, is there any way you can give equal

16 dignity to a relatively recent inception of the earth in

17 reference to that page?

18 A Not scientifically.

19 Q I'm not asking you as a scientist. I'm asking you

20 as an educator. Is there anything that you could think of

21 now that you can write in that book which would balance it

22 and give it equal dignity?

23 A But you see, I am a science educator and I have to

24 deal within the constructs of science.

25 Q Mr. Wood, we've been over that in great detail. my


1 Q (Continuing) question is this, is there anything

2 that you can think of as an educator, college graduate, by

3 which you could write in the margin of that book that a

4 publisher could add which would balance it?

5 A No, I could not. Not in a science book.

6 Q If a statement appeared in there, "Some scientists,

7 however, feel that fossil fuels have been formed

8 relatively recent, say within the last one million years",

9 would that give it a balance?

10 A Not in my opinion, no.

11 Q I'm not asking you for your opinion. I'm asking you

12 if that would balance the words in the book?

13 A But again, I must give you my opinion. No, it would

14 not, because I am the one who has to make the interpre-

15 tation as to the balance.

16 You are asking me to make an interpretation, so it must

17 be my opinion. So my interpretation is that in my

18 opinion, no.

19 Q Do you have your physics book?

20 A Yes, I do.

21 Q I believe the first page in the physic book is page

22 30?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Is that the page that has pictures on it?

25 A It has one picture and then a chart diagram


1 A (Continuing) referring to sizes of things that we

2 deal with in physical sciences.

3 Q Okay. I believe the reference on that page is

4 something relating to the distance to the stars?

5 A Yes, it is. The distance to fartherest photographed

6 galaxies in terms of light years.

7 Q What does it say?

8 A It says the distance to the fartherest photographed

9 galaxy is twenty-five light years.

10 Q Now, as I understand, it is your position that that

11 would trigger Act 590?

12 A Yes.

13 Q As precisely as you can, tell me why you feel that

14 way?

15 A Because as the teacher, and I'm dealing with

16 concepts that are based on our scientific community

17 thought and our scientific community concepts, the idea of

18 light years, the idea of distances in space are pretty

19 well tossed around to be statements of acceptance.

20 So when I use this, then I think that I would have to

21 balance this also by saying `there are people who might

22 also think, or I would have to have some evidence that

23 would show me that this would not conflict or it would be

24 interpreted to be one of the things in Section 4(a).

25 Q What I'm trying to deal with is the textbook that


1 Q (Continuing) you actually use. Now, the method in

2 which you teach it, I'll get to in a minute.

3 My question is, could you not put a statement in there

4 that there are scientists who believe that the stars are

5 not quite that far away?

6 A I would have to have the community of science give

7 me some evidence for that point before I could put that in.

8 Q I'm not asking you to act as a scientific editor in

9 the book. What I want to know, would that balance it as

10 far as the textbook is concerned under the Act?

11 A I have to rely on my interpretation of balanced

12 treatment. And my balanced treatment interpretation

13 requires that I give equal dignity and equal treatment.

14 And equal dignity requires that I develop the ideas.

15 I can develop the idea of the concept of a light year.

16 1 don't have any problem developing that concept. What I

17 would have trouble developing, you see, is finding out how

18 we could develop an idea that would relate to distances

19 not being that great.

20 Q The next page was 242, which was the Doppler effect?

21 A Yes. The Doppler effect covers from page 242 —

22 pardon me — from 240 to 242, yes.

23 Q Do you teach that material?

24 A Yes, I do.

25 Q And I believe on page 352, 353 there are some


1 Q (Continuing) pictures of galaxies?

2 A Yes, there are.

3 Q Do you teach that material?

4 A I'm not currently teaching it this year. I have in

5 the past.

6 Q What about pages 566 through 568?

7 A I do currently teach these. These refer to radio-

8 active decay methods.

9 Q And on page 581 through 582?

10 A I use the method of Carbon-14 dating as a method of

11 how radioactive dating can be used, yes.

12 Q What about page 609, the law of parity?

13 A I do not teach that.

14 Q In reference to pages 30, 566 through 568, 242 and

15 pages 581 through 582, could you yourself—

16 A Just a second I need to get all of these arranged

17 so that—

18 Q I'm not going to ask you about them specifically.

19 I'm going to ask you about them in combination because I

20 think I know the answer.

21 In reference to those pages, could you as an educator

22 add anything to the text of those pages which would give

23 balanced treatment as you interpret it as required by the

24 Act?

25 A No, I could not.


1 Q As I understand it, in all of the Plaintiffs'

2 exhibits, which are, the numbers that I have, 73, 72, 79,

3 75, 71, 77, 81, 80 and 57, and then there were three that

4 were subsequently numbered, that in none of those books

5 was there anything which you consider as evidence which

6 would support creation science as set out in Section 4(a)?

7 A I must repeat as I did in my direct, I only looked

8 at two of those. The entire committee, we divided those

9 books up in various ways.

10 Q So the only books you can testify as to whether or

11 not there is any scientific evidence would be those two

12 books?

13 A Yes.

14 Q As I understand your position, you interpret the

15 word "academic responsibility to be the same as academic

16 freedom?

17 A For my definition, that's exactly correct.

18 Q And you consider that to be the right to present

19 material that is currently held as valid material in terms

20 of the science community?

21 A That is the responsibility that I have.

22 Q if you were faced with the situation that a

23 curriculum guide was developed for the Pulaski County

24 School District which set out in it material regarding

25 creation science, would you teach it?


1 A Well, again, I have no way of evaluating that

2 because I don't know that that would be the action taken.

3 Q I realize that. To take this academic freedom and

4 academic responsibility concept further, we have to put it

5 into a hypothetical situation where you would have to make

6 the choice.

7 Now, assuming that a curriculum guide was developed by

8 Pulaski County School District which had in it material

9 regarding creation science, would you teach it?

10 A I would not.

11 Q And as I also understand it, you interpret Act 590

12 as establishing that you would not be able to make any

13 professional comment as to the respective models of

14 creation science and evolution science?

15 A Yes. My understanding of balanced treatment would

16 prevent me from doing such a thing.

17 Q Do you currently have any process by which— Well,

18 if you were named the outstanding teacher, I guess you

19 would know.

20 Are there evaluation methods?

21 A Are there evaluation methods?

22 Q Yes, sir.

23 A Could you be more specific?

24 Q Well, does the Pulaski County—

25 A Special School District.


1 Q —Special School District have some way of

2 evaluating classroom performance of their science teachers?

3 A Most definitely.

4 Q And you won, right?

5 A I'm not saying that's the— Or what are you

6 referring back to?

7 Q No. I mean you won an award as an outstanding

8 school teacher, right?

9 A Yes, I did.

10 Q And was that the method that was used when you got

11 your award?

12 A I'm sure that my evaluation— Maybe you and I are

13 talking about two different things here. We have a

14 process on a yearly basis in which our administrators

15 within our school and sometimes our science coordinators

16 come in and evaluate our work, see what we are doing, talk

17 to us about it, get some idea of our sense of direction,

18 where we are going.

19 And this is what I would refer to in terms of a formal

20 evaluation.

21 Q Is the curriculum guide used in determining whether

22 or not you are within the appropriate course material?

23 A I don't think that, up to this point, that that has

24 been included in our particular evaluations. I don't

25 think it ever has been in mine.


1 A (Continuing)

2 I cannot say for all areas in Pulaski County Special

3 School District. I can only say in the area of science.

4 Q Do you have an opinion as to whether or not a

5 teacher who was teaching creation science in the Pulaski

6 County Special School District would suffer a negative

7 evaluation if they were teaching the creation science

8 model?

9 A Are you saying now, right now?

10 Q Yes.

11 A I would say no, not on the basis of that. There are

12 many ways in which we are evaluated. It has to do with a

13 lot of things, including our appearance on a daily basis

14 and our rapport with students.

15 It's a multifaceted instrument, of which I don't believe

16 that is on there anyplace.

17 Q Is it possible?

18 A Would you rephrase that again? What is possible?

19 THE COURT You don't need to rephrase that. Go on

20 to something else.

21 Q Mr. Wood, have you had an opportunity to examine a

22 copy of "The Science Teacher", volume 43, number 8,

23 November, 1976?

24 A Number 8? Would you give me those numbers again?

25 I've got two copies of "Science Teacher". I want to make


1 A (Continuing) sure I'm on the right one.

2 Q One of them has "Moore" written across the top of

3 it. The other one has "Lester".

4 A Which one do I read?

5 Q Okay. There is a number under "Science Teacher",

6 volume 43, number 8.

7 A Well, both of these say number 8. One has Moore and

8 one has Lester.

9 Q Would you look inside one of them and tell me the

10 name that appears?

11 A There is one here, but I can't make out all, but the

12 author, I suppose, is John N. Moore. Is this the one you

13 are referring to?

14 Q Is that not a clear copy?

15 A Well, I can't make out the total words here. That's

16 what I was referring to.

17 Q Does that appear to be an article written in favor

18 of the teaching of creation science?

19 A I have no idea. I haven't been able to read all of

20 this. I could not make an evaluation of this at all. I'd

21 have to spend a little time reading it.

22 Are you wanting me to read it right now? Would you like

23 for me to?

24 Q I gave it to you before you went on the stand so you

25 would have a chance to.


1 A Yes. About three minutes. I'm not a speed reader,

2 Mr. Childs, and I did not read it all. Honestly, I did

3 not. I got started.

4 Q The article that— The original magazine that I

5 gave you, did it appear to have four articles? Two in

6 favor of the teaching?

7 A I don't know.

8 Q Would you read this paragraph to yourself, please?

9 A I have read this introduction.

10 Q What does that indicate?

11 A It indicates they held a debate. They didn't do any

12 science. They just held a debate.

13 Q Where was this debate held?

14 A This debate was held at a National Science Teachers'

15 Association area convention in Atlanta last fall, which

16 from this data, the article, then that would be the fall

17 of 1975.

18 Q Does it indicate that Doctor Moore and Doctor Lester

19 argued the position that creation science should be taught?

20 A If these are the two people that are involved in

21 it. As I said, I got it and I started looking at one of

22 the articles, but I have not been able to summarize them

23 in any way.

24 Q Is the "Science Teacher" a publication available to

25 science teachers that's reputable


1 A Yes. I think it's a good journal, yes.

2 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, I would submit the part of

3 the address by Doctor Lester as Defendants' Exhibit 6, and

4 the material by Doctor John N. Moore as Defendants'

5 Exhibit 7.

6 MR. CRAWFORD: If your Honor please, for what

7 purpose is it being offered? I didn't understand.

8 THE COURT I guess for the purpose of proving

9 somebody had a debate down in Atlanta.

10 MR. CRAWFORD: I guess I object to that.

11 THE COURT And somebody took the pro side and

12 somebody took the con side.

13 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, your Honor, the witness has not

14 read the article that's being offered for the truth of the

15 matter asserted. It's hearsay. I would prefer if they

16 want to put it in their case for creation science that

17 they do it through witnesses that we can examine.

18 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, it's being submitted to

19 show that there is information available in reputable

20 periodicals within the science teaching field which

21 supports creation science, and for that limited purpose

22 only.

23 THE COURT I think the point of the objection is,

24 you've got a witness on the stand who has never even read

25 the article. He read one paragraph there and tried to


1 THE COURT (Continuing) identify or agree with you about

2 what the article is about. That's no basis for admitting

3 it into evidence.

4 I suppose if you are trying to get in somebody's opinion

5 that creation science should be taught in schools, the way

6 to do that is to call that person and put them on the

7 witness stand and ask them questions so that they will be

8 subject to cross examination.

9 Now, just because they may have— At this point, you've

10 established they had a debate. Just because there may

11 have been a debate doesn't mean it's admissible.

12 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, this witness testified that

13 there wasn't any information available that he knew of

14 other than creation science sources. And this is put in

15 to show, to attack his credibility on that issue. I think

16 it should go in the record.

17 And in the alternative is to have Mr. Wood step down

18 from the stand and have an opportunity to read these and

19 then recall him later.

20 THE COURT You are introducing this evidence to

21 impeach his credibility?

22 MR. CHILDS: Yes, your Honor.

23 MR. CRAWFORD: Your Honor—

24 THE COURT Why don't we take a recess. May I see

25 the attorneys back in chambers?

(Thereupon, Court was in

recess from 2:20 p.m.

until 2:25 p.m.)


1 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, pursuant to your ruling,

2 have marked Defendants' Exhibit 6 and 7 for identification.

3 THE COURT Okay, Sir. Those will be refused and

4 I'll show that you made an offer of proof of those.

5 MR. CHILDS: I have nothing further of this witness.

6 MR. CRAWFORD: The witness may be excused.

7 THE COURT You may step down, Mr. Wood.

8 Thereupon,



10 called on behalf of the Plaintiffs herein, after having

11 been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and

12 testified as follows:




15 Q State your name and your address, please?

16 A My name is Ed Bullington. I reside at 9214 Timber

17 Valley Road, Little Rock, Arkansas.

18 Q And by whom are you employed?

19 A Pulaski County Special School District.

20 Q Tell me a little bit about your educational

21 background, your degrees from the time you graduated

22 college, please?

23 A I graduated from Ouachita Baptist University with a

24 Bachelor of Science in Education. Currently, I'm nearing

25 completion of a Master's Degree in Educational


1 A (Continuing) Administration from the University of

2 Arkansas at Fayetteville.

3 Q How many hours do you lack, Mr. Bullington?

4 A Nine hours.

5 Q Can you tell me a little bit about your teaching

6 experience?

7 A I've been employed in the Pulaski County District

8 for the past fifteen years.

9 Q What subjects do you teach now?

10 A Currently I am teaching American History and

11 International Relations.

12 Q And can you tell me some of the subjects you have

13 taught within the last very few years?

14 A I have recently taught sociology, economics,

15 Arkansas History, American Government.

16 Q What is your certification by the State Department

17 of Education?

18 A Social studies certification.

19 Q Can you tell me, in addition to those subjects which

20 you have already referred to, what other subjects you are

21 allowed to teach pursuant to that certification?

22 A In addition to those subjects, I'm certified in

23 psychology and world history and perhaps others.

24 Q Do you belong to any professional organizations?

25 A Yes, sir. I'm a member of the United Teaching


1 A (Continuing) Profession. That includes the Pulaski

2 Association of Classroom Teachers, the Arkansas Education

3 Association and the National Education Association, as

4 well as a coalition entitled Coalition Advocating

5 Responsible Education of which I serve as chairperson.

6 Q And does that bear the acronym CARE?

7 A Yes, Sir.

8 Q Have you held any offices in any of these

9 organizations other than CARE?

10 A Yes. I have been past president of the PACT?

11 Q And PACT is the Pulaski Association of Classroom

12 Teachers?

13 A Yes, Sir.

14 Q All right. Have you had an opportunity to read and

15 to review Act 590 with particular concern regarding the

16 effect that it will have upon you as a social studies

17 teacher?

18 A Yes, Sir, I have.

19 Q Does Act 590 affect subject matter other than

20 science?

21 A Interestingly enough, it does.

22 Q Do you have a copy of Act 590 in front of you?

23 A Yes, Sir.

24 Q And can you read for the Court, please, those

25 portions of that Act 590 which would apply to your


1 Q (Continuing) teaching area?

2 A In Section I it says, "Lectures, textbooks, library

3 materials or educational programs that deal in any way

4 with the subject of the origin of man, life, the earth or

5 the universe."

6 And in Section 7 it enumerates those subjects. And in

7 my area, it enumerates specifically sociology, world

8 history and social studies.

9 Q Now, have you made an effort to determine which

10 subject matter in your various courses would trigger the

11 requirements of Act 590?

12 A Yes, I have.

13 Q And in regard to that, have you reviewed the various

14 textual material in some of the textbooks you are now

15 using and have used in the last year or two?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Let me hand you three documents, which I have marked

18 for purposes of identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit

19 Numbers 37, 38 and 39, and ask you if you can identify

20 those one at a time?

21 A Exhibit 37 is an excerpt from audio visual kit

22 entitled "America Comes of Age: The Years Since 1917"

23 part three, "Dissent and Change".

24 Exhibit Number 38 is an excerpt Our Common

25 Heritage: A World History. And it's the basic world


1 A (Continuing) history textbook.

2 Exhibit 39 is an excerpt from the sociology book

3 entitled Sociology by Landis.

4 Q Are these all used at the high school level?

5 A Yes, they are.

6 Q Let's start with 37, the first textbook you

7 identified.

8 A Mr. Kaplan, this is an excerpt from an audio visual

9 Kit rather than a textbook.

10 Q I'm sorry. The first matter that you did identify.

11 Tell me how you believe this will trigger the Act 590

12 requirements?

13 A There is a segment in this kit dealing with the

14 Scopes trial, in which they discuss the issue of evolution

15 as it related to being prohibited in Tennessee.

16 Q In your course, do you also bring the Scopes trial

17 up to date and mention the Epperson trial or the Epperson

18 case?

19 A Yes, I do.

20 Q And tell how in your view, this would trigger the

21 requirements of, this whole matter would trigger the

22 requirements of Act 590?

23 A If I discuss and update the Scopes trial and deal

24 the subject of evolution which has to do with the

25 beginnings of life, then Section I is activated which


1 A (Continuing) requires that if you deal in any way

2 with the subject of the origin of man, life, the earth or

3 the universe, then you have to deal with that in social

4 studies.

5 Q Have you ever taught science?

6 A No, sir, I have not. I am only certified to teach

7 social studies.

8 Q Are you competent, at least in your own view, to

9 deal with the scientific matters as they arise in

10 connection with evolution and evolution theory?

11 A From a political or social viewpoint, yes. From a

12 scientific viewpoint, no.

13 Q Can you tell me with regard to Exhibit Number 38 how

14 that would trigger the requirements of the Act?

15 A In two ways. In the beginning, it talks about

16 prehistoric man and how man is evolved from very early

17 people, the Peking and Java man to the Neanderthal man,

18 Cro-Magnon and so on.

19 And it has, for example, a chart starting with 500,000

20 years ago. In the definition section of this Act, it

21 defines creation science in Section 4(a)(6), a relatively

22 recent inception of the earth and living kinds. I believe

23 that point, that would certainly be involved in that Act.

24 Q Is there anything in your view, in your knowledge,

25 in your educational background, in your fifteen years of


1 Q (Continuing) teaching experience, which would equip

2 you in any way to deal with a balancing of this material

3 from your world history book?

4 A No. The definition says to teach creation science,

5 and it defines it in a scientific manner. And I don't

6 have that background.

7 Q Can't you now tell me what it is in Exhibit 39 which

8 you see as triggering the requirements of the Act?

9 A Yes, sir. On page 308 of this textbook, there is a

10 section entitled "Religion, a Universal Need of Humanity."

11 Q All right. Tell me what it is on 308 that in your

12 view is going to trigger Act 590?

13 A Well, there are two paragraphs in particular I would

14 like to refer to. It's on the right hand column and it

15 begins, "Nonliterate people often think that spirits

16 inhabit all things and bring about events in any manner

17 they choose." It goes on to talk about mystery and

18 miracles and supernatural events.

19 But the paragraph in question is the one entitled or

20 beginning, "In advanced societies science has progressed

21 so far that we have little need to attribute to the

22 caprice of spirits or ghosts the simple events of daily

23 life.

24 Q As you read this, slow down. You're getting too

25 fast.


1 A That's what my students say. "With a greater

2 understanding of our world, religious ideals have changed."

3 This sentence in particular then, "Attributing to God

4 the origin of life and the universe, we try to discover

5 the natural laws. We try to govern ourselves by these

6 laws rather than expect God to change them to suit us."

7 Q In what way is that going to trigger the

8 requirements of Act 590, at least,. as you see it as a

9 classroom teacher?

10 A As I understand that, of course, on the surface it's

11 talking about the origin of life. So on the surface, its

12 face value triggers that.

13 Also, as I understand those paragraphs, we are talking

14 about on the one hand attributing to God the origin of

15 life; on the other hand we are talking about an

16 evolutionary process where we discover natural laws, and

17 we separate the two.

18 Q Mr. Bullington, as a classroom teacher, at least by

19 virtue of this last exhibit that we've looked at, you

20 already talk about religion. Let's assume for the moment

21 that Act 590 even deals with religious material.

22 Why is it that you feel you can't deal with and balance

23 Act 590 inasmuch as you already deal with some religious

24 content in your classes?

25 A I deal with religious content in a political and


1 A (Continuing) social context, not from the

2 standpoint of advancing or promoting. And from my

3 background and my understanding of creation science and

4 from visiting with the students, it is religion. Act 590

5 is religion, and you are advancing religion when you teach

6 this.

7 Q What is it about Act 590, as you have read Act 590

8 and the definitional structure of it, that you view as

9 religion and advancing religion?

10 A The definition section.

11 Q Where have you ever seen those kinds of definitional

12 structures before and ideas advanced?

13 A From the time I can remember, I've been going to

14 church. And in Sunday School, our Sunday School

15 instructors— I've never attended a revival in which

16 there wasn't at least one sermon on the beginning of life

17 and creationism.

18 And these type of things are always talked about in

19 Sunday School classes and in those sermons at revivals.

20 Q Is it possible for you, then, just to omit the

21 materials that you have talked to us about in Exhibits 37,

22 38 and 39 and just not deal with that material?

23 A It's possible, but I think it would be irresponsible

24 on my part to do so.

25 Q Why?


1 A I've thought about this a great deal. And from one

2 viewpoint, I think it would be ignoring important

3 historical events and important historical knowledge.

4 But in addition to that, I have students who intend to

5 progress beyond high school level into advanced training.

6 Q Particularly in your courses, are you able to tell

7 us what percentage of the young men and women who are in

8 our courses who go on to institutions of higher learning?

9 A In International Relations almost a hundred

10 percent. In my regular American History courses, it's

11 approximately fifty percent or better.

12 And my concern is that when these students are taking

13 examinations for entrance into colleges and universities,

14 and they haven't been exposed to this material and they

15 are asked questions about this material, then they are

16 going to be at a loss. They will be handicapped in

17 gaining admission to some colleges and universities.

18 I can't state that categorically, but I would fear that.

19 Q Mr. Bullington, would you omit these materials from

20 your classes?

21 A No.

22.. Q Mr. Bullington, would you balance these materials as

23 required by Act 590 by some reference to the teaching of

24 creation science?

25 A I don't feel like I can in that I'm not a science


1 A (Continuing) teacher, and the Act specifically

2 addresses the teaching of creation science. I would be

3 jeopardizing, for one thing, our accreditation dealing

4 with certification of teachers out of their field.

5 Q Mr. Bullington, you told us already that you have

6 served as the president of PACT. In connection with that

7 service, have you had occasion to be with and to represent

8 teachers whose contracts have not been renewed by the

9 Pulaski County Special District?

10 A Yes, I have.

11 Q And can you tell me the frequency of such

12 familiarity with these processes and with these events?

13 A During my tenure as president and subsequent years

14 working with the various committees and organizations in

15 PACT, we deal with this every year, anywhere from two to

16 three to four formal cases as well as numerous informal

17 cases.

18 Q Can you tell me particularly if they might relate to

19 the kinds of matters that might come up under the

20 implementation of 590, some of the reasons for which

21 teachers have had contracts which have not been renewed?

22 A Yes. Parental complaints have sparked recommenda-

23 tions for terminations and nonrenewals. of course, those

24 oftentimes come from their students.

25 There is an interesting note the other day, for example,


1 A (Continuing) when I was back in my classroom. We

2 were discussing this case. They were asking me about it.

3 And they viewed, had two observations. One, that it was

4 religion. And, two, when I explained to them about the

5 balanced treatment concept in the law, they indicated that

6 they would monitor it, the students would monitor it, and

7 they would tell their parents if a teacher wasn't doing it

8 properly.

9 So I can see very easily how students would become sort

10 of vigilante groups, monitoring teachers and recommending

11 to parents, `well, this teacher is not doing a good job',

12 and that resulting in a complaint to the principal and

13 resulting in complaints from administration.

14 Q Have you been instrumental in the adoption by the

15 Pulaski County Special School District of a policy

16 regarding academic responsibility?

17 A Yes, I have.

18 Q Let me hand you a document which has been marked for

19 purposes of identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number

20 36 and ask you if you can identify that document?

21 A This is the policy that was drafted and presented by

22 the Coalition Advocating Responsible Education to the

23 Pulaski County Special School District. It was

24 subsequently amended in a couple of areas and adopted by

25 the school board.


1 Q Can you tell us approximately how old this document

2 is and how long it has been in effect?

3 A Almost two months.

4 Q So it's a quite recent publication, is that correct,

5 or policy?

6 A Yes. It was adopted, if my memory serves me

7 correct, on October 13th.

8 MR. KAPLAN: Your Honor, that concludes my interro-

9 gation of Mr. Bullington. Pursuant to an agreement which

10 we have reached with counsel for the State, they have

11 asked and we have agreed to defer his cross examination

12 until after the direct examination of Ms. Marianne Wilson,

13 if that is satisfactory with the Court.

14 THE COURT All right.

15 MR. KAPLAN: Your Honor, I would move admission of

16 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 36, 37, 38 and 39.

17 THE COURT They will be received.

18 Thereupon,



20 called on behalf of the Plaintiffs herein, after having

21 been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and

22 testified as follows:




25 Q Tell us your name and address, please?


1 A Marianne Wilson. 1500 Dixon Road, Little Rock.

2 Q Ms. Wilson, what's your occupation?

3 A I'm the science coordinator for the Pulaski County

4 School District.

5 Q Tell me a little bit about your education, where you

6 got your college and other degrees".

7 A From the University of Central Arkansas in Conway, I

8 have an M.S.E. degree in physical science. Also I have a

9 B.S.E. degree in physical science.

10 Q Have you got any work beyond, any hours beyond your

11 Master of Science in Education?

12 A I have fifteen hours above my Master's Degree.

13 Q Can you tell me a little bit about your teaching

14 experience in the classroom and about your administrative

15 experience, also?

16 A I was a classroom teacher for ten years, and I have

17 held the position of science coordinator for two years.

18 Q Did you serve in that science coordinator position

19 for some period parttime before the two year experience

20 you've just told us about?

21 A I served in a similar position in that it was termed

22 a science specialist, and part-time for six years.

23 Q Ms. Wilson, let me hand you a document which has

24 been marked for purposes of identification as Plaintiffs'

25 Exhibit Number 34, and can you tell me what that is?


1 A It is my job classification.

2 Q And are you responsible for performing all of the

3 duties and responsibilities that are enumerated under the

4 responsibility section of that document?

5 A Yes, I am.

6 MR. KAPLAN: Your Honor, we would offer Number 34.

7 THE COURT Okay, sir.

8 MR. KAPLAN: (Continuing)

9 Q Can you give me some brief notion, since we've

10 already put your job description in evidence, of the broad

11 areas of responsibility which you exercise?

12 A All kinds of problems in the classroom. I help

13 evaluate materials — materials meaning textbooks, media

14 that are used in the classroom — assist the teacher in

15 any kind of problems they have as far as correlation of

16 materials, material content, supplemental materials,

17 problems with students, student-teacher relationships and

18 student-parent relationships, administrative procedures as

19 far as evaluating.

20 Q You evaluate the actual classroom science teacher?

21 A I can if called, if asked to.

22 Q Can you tell me something about the administrative

23 hierarchy above you? That is, to whom do you report and

24 to whom do those individuals report?

25 A I report to Mr. Gene Jones who is responsible for secondary

instructions, 7 through 12. He, in turn,


1 A (Continuing) reports to Doctor Measel who is

2 assistant superintendent for instruction, K through 12. He,

3 in turn, reports to the superintendent of our schools, Mr.

4 Tom Hardin.

5 Q Can you tell me if any of those three people, Mr.

6 Jones, Mr. Measel and Mr. Hardin, have any experience in

7 science or in science education?

8 A No.

9 Q Are you, then, together with the one other science

10 coordinator in the district, the highest ranking science

11 curriculum individual employed by the Pulaski County

12 Special School District?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Have you served on the State textbook selection

15 committee?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And when did you serve in that capacity?

18 A Late summer and early fall of 1979, I believe.

19 Q Is that the last time that the State textbook

20 selection committee for the sciences was convened?

21 A And I must classify, it was for textbooks 9 through

22 12.

23 Q 9 through 12?

24 A 9 through 12.

25 Q And how long is that selection good for?


1 A Five years.

2 Q Was evolution considered— I mean, was evolution

3 present, at least, in all of the biology textbooks that

4 you reviewed?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Tell me a little bit about Pulaski County itself,

7 the size of the district?

8 A The size in terms of the number of pupils?

9 Q Please.

10 A Approximately thirty-one hundred plus.

11 Q Thirty-one hundred or—

12 A I mean thousand. Excuse me.

13 Q And, indeed, is that the largest school district in

14 the State of Arkansas?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Approximately how many teachers do you have that are

17 certified in science in grades 7 through 9?

18 A Fifty-three.

19 Q And do you know of your own knowledge approximately

20 how many are in grades 10 through 12?

21 A Close to the same number. Some of them overlap in

22 that if we have a 7 through 12, school we might have a

23 seventh grade teacher that also teaches tenth grade

24 biology. So a few of those would be one and the same

25 person.


1 Q But these are all teachers—

2 A For about ninety altogether.

3 Q All right. And these teachers are all teachers

4 whose certification by the State of Arkansas entitles them

5 to teach in the area of the sciences, is that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And do you have to be certified separately for

8 chemistry or biology or physics?

9 A Yes.

10 Q With regard to elementary teachers, do elementary

11 teachers have to be separately certified in science?

12 A No.

13 Q What is their certification?

14 A They just certify in elementary education, broad

15 gambit.

16 Q Can you tell me something about the range of

17 experience and knowledge about scientific matters that you

18 find even in those teachers who have science

19 certifications?

20 A We have people that have physical education degrees

21 that because they took courses such as kinesiology they

22 meet certification requirements in the State of Arkansas.

23 Also, teachers in home economics because of different

24 courses that they have taken meet science certification

25 all the way up to people that have M.S.E. degrees in


1 A (Continuing) biology or M.S.E., Master of Science

2 in Education, degrees in physics, and even advanced work

3 in some of those fields.

4 So we have a very broad range of teacher training.

5 Q Does that make a difference in how the curriculum

6 coordinator has to operate and the problems that you face?

7 A Yes, it does.

8 Q Can you tell me something about that?

9 A Well, some people, for example, a home ec teacher

10 might be weak in the field of physics. And as far as, you

11 know, having to get all the basic information or just

12 understand some of the concepts in physics itself to teach

13 the junior high students, so they certainly need more help

14 than the person who has a Master's in physical science

15 teaching, say, an eight grade student, who has a very good

16 working knowledge of the subject area.

17 Q Let's, then, pay particular attention to the junior

18 high school level. And can you tell me, please, the

19 progression of science subjects as they are taught in the

20 junior high schools, and describe for me in a very brief

21 manner the kinds of subjects that are included each year?

22 A In the seventh grade science classes, we emphasize

23 life science, zoology and botany. In the eighth grade

24 science classes, it's physical science which deals in the



1 A (Continuing) fields of physics and chemistry. And

2 in the ninth grade science classes, it is termed general

3 science, but we have tried to make an emphasis on earth

4 science. And then we try to introduce the field of

5 biology in the last nine weeks of school because that's

6 the next subject that they are going to in the tenth

7 grade, and we want them to have a basis before they get

8 there.

9 Q Let me hand you a document which I have marked for

10 purposes of identification as Plaintiffs' Number 26 and

11 ask you if you can identify Number 26?

12 A It is a chapter out of our Focus on Life Science

13 text which we use in the seventh grade dealing— Well,

14 the chapter is entitled, "The Theory of Evolution."

15 Q And do you actually cover all of that material in

16 the seventh grade? Not necessarily every word, but do you

17 cover the chapter on evolution in the seventh grade?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And is that part of your core curriculum?

20 A Yes.

21 MR. KAPLAN: Your Honor, we would offer Number 26?

22 THE COURT It will be received.

23 MR. KAPLAN: (Continuing)

24 Q Before we go any further, let's talk about the

25 curriculum. Let me hand you a document which I have


1 Q (Continuing) marked for purposes of identification

2 as Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 27 and ask if you can

3 identify that?

4 A It is copy of our "Outline of Content and Resource

5 Units" that we have developed specifically for junior high

6 science, grades 7 through 9.

7 MR. KAPLAN: Your Honor, we would offer Number 27.

8 THE COURT It will be received.

9 MR. KAPLAN: (Continuing)

10 Q Now, with particular reference to Number 27, I'd

11 like for you to amplify for the Court, if you would, with

12 regard to the structure of this document, and pay

13 particular attention to some of these units at the back?

14 including oceanography, meteorology, geology, and how

15 those came to be in the curriculum?

16 A Well, we develop the unit. And by "well, I mean

17 myself along with seventh, eighth and ninth grade

18 teachers. We took our three books that we had adopted and

19 kind of fixed in our minds, we isolated them from ever

20 having science before in the elementary school and never

21 getting science again after they left the ninth grade.

22 And we wanted to try to give them as broad and

23 comprehensive a scope in science as we possibly could. So

24 we set out our three books and saw areas that they over-

25 lapped, and, you know, tried to decide—


1 A (Continuing)

2 For example, in the seventh grade textbook, they have a

3 chapter on chemistry that deals with the atom. We also

4 have those chapters dealing with chemistry in the eighth

5 grade, so we saw no need in wasting time covering that

6 chapter in the seventh grade since they were going to get

7 it in the eighth grade.

8 So we went through and kind of weeded out, you know, and

9 pinpointed certain areas in instruction. Then we looked

10 at the particular area to see if there was any weaknesses.

11 Q Now, when you say "well, were you yourself involved

12 in this process?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And is this document, Number 27, a product of your

15 work as well as the work of your fellow teachers in the

16 Pulaski County Special School District?

17 A Yes. In fact, it has my name in the front.

18 Q All right.

19 A Okay. We looked at areas to see if everything

20 was—for the weak areas. And for example, in the area of

21 earth science, which we wanted particular emphasis on, one

22 of the reasons being, usually a student had to have only

23 one credit when they went to the high school, which was

24 usually the biological science, so we definitely wanted

25 them to have some knowledge of earth science.


1 A (Continuing)

2 So we beefed up, so to speak, the units of earth science

3 in that we wrote supplemental units or resource units in

4 the fields of, in this particular case, astronomy,

5 geology, oceanography and meteorology.

6 Q Tell me the process by which you developed those

7 units? Where you looked for the materials, the kind of

8 materials you included and so forth?

9 A We looked for materials just about anywhere and

10 everywhere we possibly could. As far as libraries, I

11 usually have lists of references for that particular

12 subject as far as content and then, too, for media because

13 when you develop a resource unit, that means you don't

14 have the material in a text. That's just by the lecture

15 method, which is a poor method for junior high students to

16 get turned on to.

17 You have to present different types of media to explain

18 the specific points, especially in science you need some

19 type of bringing it more down to their level.

20 So first of all, we wrote our objective, what was our

21 objective for a particular unit. Then we wrote the topics

22 that we wanted to cover and developed specific objectives

23 for each topic. And then we pretty well made out an

24 outline of content. We took the topics and broke them

25 down as far as what exact items would fall into the


1 A (Continuing) content.

2 And then we wrote activities up that would demonstrate

3 that topic . And then we wrote up vocabulary lists that

4 the students would need, a working vocabulary, in order to

5 understand, say, oceanography.

6 Then we compiled a resource list that was anywhere from

7 books in which you could find supplemental information, a

8 film strip that would support that topic or bring it more

9 to life, transparencies, slides, if there weren't any

10 films, if there were any, pamphlets that you could write

11 off to.

12 We would, you, know, try to use like the weather bureau

13 or Washington D.C. has a lot of free material that we can

14 utilize in the classroom.

15 Q is cost a consideration when you do all this?

16 A Oh, most definitely.

17 Q Okay. And in all of these areas, does your school

18 district already have materials that are on the approved

19 instructional aids and auxiliaries that are approved by

20 the state for which you can get supplemented income in its

21 catalogue of materials?

22 That is, do you already have all of this stuff in your

23 library of materials?

24 A Do we already have all the stuff that's on the state

25 textbook list?

Q No, no. That you have for your curriculum.


1 A No.

2 Q And how does a teacher go about getting that

3 material if a teacher doesn't have it in the school?

4 A Well, if it's something that we list— We specify

5 if the document is free. And if it is, the teacher writes

6 to the address that we have provided for them and request

7 X number of copies — Sometimes they will just give you

8 one — to use in her classroom.

9 Or usually the teacher will go to the media director,

10 also known as the librarian, to purchase film strips. We

11 usually can never purchase a film because of the cost.

12 Q Were you able for every single one of those units to

13 find materials from regular science publishers and find

14 materials in the literature in libraries in both your

15 school library and public libraries

16 A Yes.

17 Q And did all of those meet the criteria that you have

18 — we'll get to in a minute what those criteria are —

19 that you have for scientific materials and materials done

20 in a scientific method?

21 A Yes. In fact, we didn't include them if we hadn't

22 already looked at them.

23 Q How are texts selected for the school district in

24 grades 7 through 9? We've had, some discussion about it,

25 but we haven't had any complete analysis of the actual


1 Q (Continuing) Mechanism in 7 through 9, or even in

2 10 through 12.

3 A All right. In 7 through 9, in particular, we have a

4 junior high committee which is composed of seventh, eighth

5 and ninth grade teachers.

6 Then on the high school level if you are choosing a

7 textbook for physics or for chemistry, a specific subject,

8 there is a committee of physics teachers.

9 Being more specific, the teachers are asked to serve on

10 the committee. Sometimes for various reasons some

11 teachers just literally don't want to be away from their

12 classroom three or four times to serve on a committee or

13 don't have the time for various reasons to be, you know,

14 have time to go through all the texts and give them an

15 adequate evaluation.

16 But they are asked, and for the most part, they usually

17 do serve on the committee. And the committee meets

18 several times. We meet initially to establish our purpose

19 and, you know, tell what's going to go on and get

20 everybody's address right because then they are mailed all

21 of the textbooks from the state textbook approved list

22 because that's the only list we can use state monies to

23 buy from.

24 And we meet back again, usually for kind of a general

25 discussion. Well, you know, do we want physical science

in the eighth grade or do we want geology in the eighth


1 A (Continuing) grade or do we want life science. We

2 kind of come to a general consensus of what is going to be

3 seventh, what's going to be eighth.

4 And that's usually kind of set for us because a lot of

5 times the publishers already have life science as seventh

6 grade, like that. So we don't have a big decision there

7 to make.

8 And then more time is given to evaluate the textbooks.

9 We kind of do a weeding down process and narrow them down

10 to three books, sometimes two. Then those two books are

11 taken back

12 And the teachers that represent their school, they go

13 then to the teachers in their school and let them have an

14 opportunity. You know, like if there is a seventh grade

15 teacher representing 7 through 9, if they are going to

16 make a decision for those people, they like to have their

17 input.

18 And we battle it out and get one book.

19 Q Is it possible for a student to complete the ninth

20 grade with one of these general science courses and not

21 have to take another science again by the time that

22 student graduates from high school?

23 A The requirements of our school district is they have

24 two science credits.

25 Q And that's in grades 7 through 9?


1 A No. It's grades 9 through 12. They only start

2 getting credit in the ninth grade.

3 Q And they have to take one credit in the ninth grade,

4 earth science?

5 A That is a generally accepted rule that they have two

6 science credits, one being in biology. It does not say

7 specifically that that student has to take ninth grade

8 science, but they always do.

9 Q Does one of the credits have to be in biology?

10 A I believe so. One of the credits is in biological

11 science.

12 Q Do all of the biology textbooks in your district

13 deal with evolution and the theory of evolution?

14 A Pardon.

15 Q Do all of the biology texts in your school district

16 deal with evolution?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Is it possible, indeed, to teach biology without

19 teaching the theory of evolution?

20 A Not in my opinion.

21 Q There has been some reference here to a resolution

22 by the Pulaski County Special School District regarding

23 the teaching of creation science. Can you tell me when

24 you first learned about such an effort?

25 A Probably in late December.


1 Q 1980?

2 A 1980.

3 Q Tell me how you learned?

4 A Because I was visiting a school in which Mr. Fisher

5 taught, Mr. Larry Fisher. And in talking to him in the

6 office, he gave me a document and said, `I'm going to send

7 this to the school board members and try to get on the

8 agenda and get a proposal made in January.'

9 Q Did he show you the proposal?

10 A He showed me the proposal, and I briefly looked at

11 it and gave it back to him, didn't think anything more

12 about it, really.

13 Q What is the next thing you heard about it?

14 A He got on the agenda, and the school board passed a

15 mandate that we were to incorporate a unit on creationism

16 in our science class.

17 Q Were you ever consulted by the board before that

18 unit was, before that resolution of the school district?

19 A No.

20 Q Tell me then what is the next thing that you knew

21 about or heard about in connection with the creation

22 science unit?

23 A I believe it was the day after the school board

24 meeting, they called us in and said we were going to have

25 to get a committee together. And since part of my job


1 A (Continuing) description is to help in curriculum

2 writing, I would be part of the committee.

3 And we were going to have to come up with a curriculum

4 to meet the requirements of the school board. And I said,

5 `Could I see the proposal', and I read it.

6 Q And what was your view after you read it?

7 A Well, my view is that Mr. Fisher has the right to do

8 that, by all means. I didn't know what scientific

9 creationism was. I'd never come across it in my training

10 as a science teacher. I didn't know what it was.

11 Q Did you make some attempt—

12 A In reading the points about the flood, since the

13 only time I'd ever heard of a worldwide flood was in the

14 book of Genesis, I kind of raised my eyebrows to it.

15 Q Did you have any further discussions with him or

16 with anyone else regarding this matter before the

17 committee was appointed?

18 A Mr. Fisher?

19 Q Yes.

20 A Before the committee actually first met, I think I

21 probably asked him what was scientific creationism, and he

22 gave me a general description. And he more or less said,

23 `Did you see where I got it passed', kind of deal. Not

24 any detailed discussion about it, no.

25 Q Was the first committee meeting the first time that


1 Q (Continuing) you heard anything in anymore detail

2 about scientific creationism?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And Mr. Wood has already testified about that. And

5 did you serve on that committee?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Mr. Wood also testified that he reported back as

8 spokesperson for that committee to the school district.

9 And can you tell me what the reaction of the school

10 district was and then what your involvement immediately

11 after that became?

12 A I attended the meeting, the school board meeting in

13 which Mr. Wood presented the opinion of the committee.

14 And my perception was that the school board said, `We

15 didn't ask for your opinion; we asked you to write a

16 curriculum. You didn't do what we told you to do. You

17 know, go back, get busy.'

18 Q What was your next involvement?

19 A So right after the school board meeting, my boss,

20 Mr. Dean Jones, called me in and said, `Get busy.' It was

21 pointless to utilize the whole committee probably through

22 monetary reasons. We couldn't release that many teachers

23 to work as long as it did take us to work. You know, pay

24 substitutes and whatever. You know, it just wouldn't be

25 feasible to do that, plus the committee was opposed, too,


1 A (Continuing) that this was just not valid science,

2 and we were asking them to do something that they did not

3 believe in, which causes some difficulty in itself.

4 Q Were you opposed, also, or were you in favor?

5 A I was not in favor. I still wanted to know what

6 creationism was exactly. I had an open mind about it. I

7 guess I thought if I sat quietly enough, it would slide

8 under the door and nobody would notice.

9 But anyway, partly because of my job position, I was

10 asked to write the curriculum. It was myself and Mr.

11 Fisher and then Mr. Jones would also, and he was on the

12 original committee, too. We would be the three people

13 involved in completing the task.

14 Mr. Fisher, because he proposed it and because he did

15 have in his possession all of the materials that, or the

16 only materials that we knew of at the time.

17 Q Can you tell me approximately when you began working

18 with Mr. Fisher and the mechanism that you set up by which

19 you first began to undertake the development of this

20 curriculum?

21 A Well, the proposal was made at the January board

22 meeting. We met a two times. We reported to the February

23 board meeting. So we started work in late February. The

24 first thing I did was to ask Mr. Fisher— I sat down with

25 him. You know, I wanted him to go over just exactly what


1 A (Continuing) this was. I couldn't exactly accept

2 it just because he said what scientific creationism was.

3 You know, it was just kind of `so what.'

4 So I asked him to give me some books. I myself on the

5 committee had not taken a book and reviewed it and

6 reported to the committee. By the time it got around to

7 me, the books were all taken. That was the reason I

8 didn't get a book.

9 So I took some books and began reading.

10 Q Do you recall the books that you did take?

11 A The Genesis Flood, Evolution: The Fossils Say No.

12 There was a book, Origins: Two Model Approach. I would,

13 like, take a book and take it back to him, and he'd give

14 me another book.

15 Q Do you recall approximately how many you read

16 through this process?

17 A Through the entire process of developing the unit?

18 Q Yes.

19 A And read in its entirety?

20 Q Well, at least excerpts from?

21 A Fifteen to twenty books.

22 Q Have you told us now—

23 A From Mr. Fisher.

24 Q Right. And did you read books and investigate other

25 materials other than those that he gave you?