1 A (Continuing) previously held conclusions.
2 But as I understand the scientific community to work,
3 and again, I'll have to say this, that those are put forth
4 for scrutiny.
5 That's how science grows. Science is a growing
6 process. We certainly hope that it never stagnates.
7 And in this process requires people to put forth their
8 materials to the scientific community and allow the
9 scientific community to evaluate those materials. And
10 through evaluation we grow. We may sidestep a little, but
11 we grow.
12 So the scrutiny part of it is very important. It may be
13 one of the most valuable things that we can do in science,
14 is to have someone present something to the scientific
15 community where all of the constructs or all of the pieces
16 don't necessarily fit together. It gives scientists
18 Q Who asked you to serve on the for lack of a
19 better word the preliminary committee in response to
20 the request of the school board to come up with the
21 creation unit?
22 A Doctor Harold Measel. He is the assistant superin-
23 tendent in charge of secondary instruction I believe
24 that's his correct title in our school district,
25 Pulaski County Special School District, Little Rock,
1 Q Did you volunteer to serve on the committee?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q Can you tell me if Larry Fisher was on that
5 A Larry Fisher was on that committee. It was Larry
6 Fisher had to be there since be brought the materials, yes.
7 Q Did he serve on the committee?
8 A I don't know that be served on the committee or if
9 he was the person who brought the committee. I don't know
10 exactly how to define your term "served."
11 Q Well, did he When you all were reaching a
12 consensus, as I understand, a unanimous consensus among
13 you, was he consulted about the merits of the evidence?
14 A I don't believe Larry Fisher, in our discussions as
15 we went around the table, offered any. Privately, outside
16 getting a cup of coffee, Larry and I talked about a couple
17 of the points, but just very simply.
18 But as we went around the table, each person You see,
19 our purpose there, as I understand it, was, the first
20 meeting was to take the books home, evaluate them, and
21 then those persons that did the evaluation, to bring back
22 that evaluation.
23 Since Larry Fisher's purpose in that committee was not
24 to evaluate the books, he did not take part in the process
25 of explaining the evaluations.
1 Q Okay. I think I understand what you are saying.
2 Now then in your deposition, you advised me that for
3 something to be science, it would have to be published by
4 reputable sources, did you not?
5 A I believe that was one of the criteria that I stated
6 in there, yes.
7 Q And what other criteria would there be?
8 A The other criteria, for something to be accepted as
9 science, it must have been arrived at through the
10 scientific processes. It must have validity, internal
12 In other words, was the document constructed in the
13 manner in which science accepts the constructs. Was the
14 person who did this, was he a recognized person operating
15 in that field by our national community of science.
16 Pardon me. Our international community of science.
17 Q So it would be safe to say you consider science that
18 which is accepted in the scientific community?
19 A Yes, I would.
20 Q Now then, I want to go over briefly with you the
21 information in your chemistry book and your physics book
22 which would, as you see it, trigger Act 590.
23 Do you have your chemistry book with you?
24 A I do.
25 Q Would you please tell me the first page in numerical
1 Q (Continuing) order that you feel would trigger Act
3 A I don't have these pages marked, so it's going to
4 take me a minute. If you can point to a page, I'll sure
5 turn to it.
6 Q Let's try page 373, fossil fuels.
7 A Okay.
8 Q And how would that trigger Act 590 in your judgment?
9 A May I read the sentence?
10 Q Yes.
11 A On the Section 18.5, Natural Gas and Petroleum, the
12 second paragraph says, "Natural gas and petroleum were
13 probably formed by the decay of plants and animals living
14 millions of years ago."
15 Q I believe the next pages were around page 591 in
16 chapter 30?
17 A Yes.
18 Q I believe that has to do with radioactive dating?
19 A It has The entire chapter has to do with radio-
21 Q Do you usually teach chapter 30 in your chemistry
23 A No, not in chemistry.
24 Q Now then, would it be Can you think of any way
25 that you could balance the reference on page 373 as to
1 Q (Continuing) fossil fuels being formed millions of
2 years ago.
3 A Wait a minute. What page?
4 Q Page 373.
5 A Will you repeat the question?
6 Q Is there any way that you can think of right now on
7 the stand that you could balance "millions of years ago"
8 in your textbook?
9 A That I could balance millions of years ago in my
10 textbook? What kind of balance are you asking? Are you
11 asking me to give Act 590 balance?
12 Q As I understand it, your position is that "balanced"
13 means "equal."
14 A "Balanced" means "equal dignity."
15 Q Now then, is there any way you can give equal
16 dignity to a relatively recent inception of the earth in
17 reference to that page?
18 A Not scientifically.
19 Q I'm not asking you as a scientist. I'm asking you
20 as an educator. Is there anything that you could think of
21 now that you can write in that book which would balance it
22 and give it equal dignity?
23 A But you see, I am a science educator and I have to
24 deal within the constructs of science.
25 Q Mr. Wood, we've been over that in great detail. my
1 Q (Continuing) question is this, is there anything
2 that you can think of as an educator, college graduate, by
3 which you could write in the margin of that book that a
4 publisher could add which would balance it?
5 A No, I could not. Not in a science book.
6 Q If a statement appeared in there, "Some scientists,
7 however, feel that fossil fuels have been formed
8 relatively recent, say within the last one million years",
9 would that give it a balance?
10 A Not in my opinion, no.
11 Q I'm not asking you for your opinion. I'm asking you
12 if that would balance the words in the book?
13 A But again, I must give you my opinion. No, it would
14 not, because I am the one who has to make the interpre-
15 tation as to the balance.
16 You are asking me to make an interpretation, so it must
17 be my opinion. So my interpretation is that in my
18 opinion, no.
19 Q Do you have your physics book?
20 A Yes, I do.
21 Q I believe the first page in the physic book is page
23 A Yes.
24 Q Is that the page that has pictures on it?
25 A It has one picture and then a chart diagram
1 A (Continuing) referring to sizes of things that we
2 deal with in physical sciences.
3 Q Okay. I believe the reference on that page is
4 something relating to the distance to the stars?
5 A Yes, it is. The distance to fartherest photographed
6 galaxies in terms of light years.
7 Q What does it say?
8 A It says the distance to the fartherest photographed
9 galaxy is twenty-five light years.
10 Q Now, as I understand, it is your position that that
11 would trigger Act 590?
12 A Yes.
13 Q As precisely as you can, tell me why you feel that
15 A Because as the teacher, and I'm dealing with
16 concepts that are based on our scientific community
17 thought and our scientific community concepts, the idea of
18 light years, the idea of distances in space are pretty
19 well tossed around to be statements of acceptance.
20 So when I use this, then I think that I would have to
21 balance this also by saying `there are people who might
22 also think, or I would have to have some evidence that
23 would show me that this would not conflict or it would be
24 interpreted to be one of the things in Section 4(a).
25 Q What I'm trying to deal with is the textbook that
1 Q (Continuing) you actually use. Now, the method in
2 which you teach it, I'll get to in a minute.
3 My question is, could you not put a statement in there
4 that there are scientists who believe that the stars are
5 not quite that far away?
6 A I would have to have the community of science give
7 me some evidence for that point before I could put that in.
8 Q I'm not asking you to act as a scientific editor in
9 the book. What I want to know, would that balance it as
10 far as the textbook is concerned under the Act?
11 A I have to rely on my interpretation of balanced
12 treatment. And my balanced treatment interpretation
13 requires that I give equal dignity and equal treatment.
14 And equal dignity requires that I develop the ideas.
15 I can develop the idea of the concept of a light year.
16 1 don't have any problem developing that concept. What I
17 would have trouble developing, you see, is finding out how
18 we could develop an idea that would relate to distances
19 not being that great.
20 Q The next page was 242, which was the Doppler effect?
21 A Yes. The Doppler effect covers from page 242
22 pardon me from 240 to 242, yes.
23 Q Do you teach that material?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q And I believe on page 352, 353 there are some
1 Q (Continuing) pictures of galaxies?
2 A Yes, there are.
3 Q Do you teach that material?
4 A I'm not currently teaching it this year. I have in
5 the past.
6 Q What about pages 566 through 568?
7 A I do currently teach these. These refer to radio-
8 active decay methods.
9 Q And on page 581 through 582?
10 A I use the method of Carbon-14 dating as a method of
11 how radioactive dating can be used, yes.
12 Q What about page 609, the law of parity?
13 A I do not teach that.
14 Q In reference to pages 30, 566 through 568, 242 and
15 pages 581 through 582, could you yourself
16 A Just a second I need to get all of these arranged
17 so that
18 Q I'm not going to ask you about them specifically.
19 I'm going to ask you about them in combination because I
20 think I know the answer.
21 In reference to those pages, could you as an educator
22 add anything to the text of those pages which would give
23 balanced treatment as you interpret it as required by the
25 A No, I could not.
1 Q As I understand it, in all of the Plaintiffs'
2 exhibits, which are, the numbers that I have, 73, 72, 79,
3 75, 71, 77, 81, 80 and 57, and then there were three that
4 were subsequently numbered, that in none of those books
5 was there anything which you consider as evidence which
6 would support creation science as set out in Section 4(a)?
7 A I must repeat as I did in my direct, I only looked
8 at two of those. The entire committee, we divided those
9 books up in various ways.
10 Q So the only books you can testify as to whether or
11 not there is any scientific evidence would be those two
13 A Yes.
14 Q As I understand your position, you interpret the
15 word "academic responsibility to be the same as academic
17 A For my definition, that's exactly correct.
18 Q And you consider that to be the right to present
19 material that is currently held as valid material in terms
20 of the science community?
21 A That is the responsibility that I have.
22 Q if you were faced with the situation that a
23 curriculum guide was developed for the Pulaski County
24 School District which set out in it material regarding
25 creation science, would you teach it?
1 A Well, again, I have no way of evaluating that
2 because I don't know that that would be the action taken.
3 Q I realize that. To take this academic freedom and
4 academic responsibility concept further, we have to put it
5 into a hypothetical situation where you would have to make
6 the choice.
7 Now, assuming that a curriculum guide was developed by
8 Pulaski County School District which had in it material
9 regarding creation science, would you teach it?
10 A I would not.
11 Q And as I also understand it, you interpret Act 590
12 as establishing that you would not be able to make any
13 professional comment as to the respective models of
14 creation science and evolution science?
15 A Yes. My understanding of balanced treatment would
16 prevent me from doing such a thing.
17 Q Do you currently have any process by which Well,
18 if you were named the outstanding teacher, I guess you
19 would know.
20 Are there evaluation methods?
21 A Are there evaluation methods?
22 Q Yes, sir.
23 A Could you be more specific?
24 Q Well, does the Pulaski County
25 A Special School District.
1 Q Special School District have some way of
2 evaluating classroom performance of their science teachers?
3 A Most definitely.
4 Q And you won, right?
5 A I'm not saying that's the Or what are you
6 referring back to?
7 Q No. I mean you won an award as an outstanding
8 school teacher, right?
9 A Yes, I did.
10 Q And was that the method that was used when you got
11 your award?
12 A I'm sure that my evaluation Maybe you and I are
13 talking about two different things here. We have a
14 process on a yearly basis in which our administrators
15 within our school and sometimes our science coordinators
16 come in and evaluate our work, see what we are doing, talk
17 to us about it, get some idea of our sense of direction,
18 where we are going.
19 And this is what I would refer to in terms of a formal
21 Q Is the curriculum guide used in determining whether
22 or not you are within the appropriate course material?
23 A I don't think that, up to this point, that that has
24 been included in our particular evaluations. I don't
25 think it ever has been in mine.
1 A (Continuing)
2 I cannot say for all areas in Pulaski County Special
3 School District. I can only say in the area of science.
4 Q Do you have an opinion as to whether or not a
5 teacher who was teaching creation science in the Pulaski
6 County Special School District would suffer a negative
7 evaluation if they were teaching the creation science
9 A Are you saying now, right now?
10 Q Yes.
11 A I would say no, not on the basis of that. There are
12 many ways in which we are evaluated. It has to do with a
13 lot of things, including our appearance on a daily basis
14 and our rapport with students.
15 It's a multifaceted instrument, of which I don't believe
16 that is on there anyplace.
17 Q Is it possible?
18 A Would you rephrase that again? What is possible?
19 THE COURT You don't need to rephrase that. Go on
20 to something else.
21 Q Mr. Wood, have you had an opportunity to examine a
22 copy of "The Science Teacher", volume 43, number 8,
23 November, 1976?
24 A Number 8? Would you give me those numbers again?
25 I've got two copies of "Science Teacher". I want to make
1 A (Continuing) sure I'm on the right one.
2 Q One of them has "Moore" written across the top of
3 it. The other one has "Lester".
4 A Which one do I read?
5 Q Okay. There is a number under "Science Teacher",
6 volume 43, number 8.
7 A Well, both of these say number 8. One has Moore and
8 one has Lester.
9 Q Would you look inside one of them and tell me the
10 name that appears?
11 A There is one here, but I can't make out all, but the
12 author, I suppose, is John N. Moore. Is this the one you
13 are referring to?
14 Q Is that not a clear copy?
15 A Well, I can't make out the total words here. That's
16 what I was referring to.
17 Q Does that appear to be an article written in favor
18 of the teaching of creation science?
19 A I have no idea. I haven't been able to read all of
20 this. I could not make an evaluation of this at all. I'd
21 have to spend a little time reading it.
22 Are you wanting me to read it right now? Would you like
23 for me to?
24 Q I gave it to you before you went on the stand so you
25 would have a chance to.
1 A Yes. About three minutes. I'm not a speed reader,
2 Mr. Childs, and I did not read it all. Honestly, I did
3 not. I got started.
4 Q The article that The original magazine that I
5 gave you, did it appear to have four articles? Two in
6 favor of the teaching?
7 A I don't know.
8 Q Would you read this paragraph to yourself, please?
9 A I have read this introduction.
10 Q What does that indicate?
11 A It indicates they held a debate. They didn't do any
12 science. They just held a debate.
13 Q Where was this debate held?
14 A This debate was held at a National Science Teachers'
15 Association area convention in Atlanta last fall, which
16 from this data, the article, then that would be the fall
17 of 1975.
18 Q Does it indicate that Doctor Moore and Doctor Lester
19 argued the position that creation science should be taught?
20 A If these are the two people that are involved in
21 it. As I said, I got it and I started looking at one of
22 the articles, but I have not been able to summarize them
23 in any way.
24 Q Is the "Science Teacher" a publication available to
25 science teachers that's reputable
1 A Yes. I think it's a good journal, yes.
2 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, I would submit the part of
3 the address by Doctor Lester as Defendants' Exhibit 6, and
4 the material by Doctor John N. Moore as Defendants'
5 Exhibit 7.
6 MR. CRAWFORD: If your Honor please, for what
7 purpose is it being offered? I didn't understand.
8 THE COURT I guess for the purpose of proving
9 somebody had a debate down in Atlanta.
10 MR. CRAWFORD: I guess I object to that.
11 THE COURT And somebody took the pro side and
12 somebody took the con side.
13 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, your Honor, the witness has not
14 read the article that's being offered for the truth of the
15 matter asserted. It's hearsay. I would prefer if they
16 want to put it in their case for creation science that
17 they do it through witnesses that we can examine.
18 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, it's being submitted to
19 show that there is information available in reputable
20 periodicals within the science teaching field which
21 supports creation science, and for that limited purpose
23 THE COURT I think the point of the objection is,
24 you've got a witness on the stand who has never even read
25 the article. He read one paragraph there and tried to
1 THE COURT (Continuing) identify or agree with you about
2 what the article is about. That's no basis for admitting
3 it into evidence.
4 I suppose if you are trying to get in somebody's opinion
5 that creation science should be taught in schools, the way
6 to do that is to call that person and put them on the
7 witness stand and ask them questions so that they will be
8 subject to cross examination.
9 Now, just because they may have At this point, you've
10 established they had a debate. Just because there may
11 have been a debate doesn't mean it's admissible.
12 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, this witness testified that
13 there wasn't any information available that he knew of
14 other than creation science sources. And this is put in
15 to show, to attack his credibility on that issue. I think
16 it should go in the record.
17 And in the alternative is to have Mr. Wood step down
18 from the stand and have an opportunity to read these and
19 then recall him later.
20 THE COURT You are introducing this evidence to
21 impeach his credibility?
22 MR. CHILDS: Yes, your Honor.
23 MR. CRAWFORD: Your Honor
24 THE COURT Why don't we take a recess. May I see
25 the attorneys back in chambers?
(Thereupon, Court was in
recess from 2:20 p.m.
until 2:25 p.m.)
1 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, pursuant to your ruling,
2 have marked Defendants' Exhibit 6 and 7 for identification.
3 THE COURT Okay, Sir. Those will be refused and
4 I'll show that you made an offer of proof of those.
5 MR. CHILDS: I have nothing further of this witness.
6 MR. CRAWFORD: The witness may be excused.
7 THE COURT You may step down, Mr. Wood.
10 called on behalf of the Plaintiffs herein, after having
11 been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and
12 testified as follows:
14 BY MR. KAPLAN:
15 Q State your name and your address, please?
16 A My name is Ed Bullington. I reside at 9214 Timber
17 Valley Road, Little Rock, Arkansas.
18 Q And by whom are you employed?
19 A Pulaski County Special School District.
20 Q Tell me a little bit about your educational
21 background, your degrees from the time you graduated
22 college, please?
23 A I graduated from Ouachita Baptist University with a
24 Bachelor of Science in Education. Currently, I'm nearing
25 completion of a Master's Degree in Educational
1 A (Continuing) Administration from the University of
2 Arkansas at Fayetteville.
3 Q How many hours do you lack, Mr. Bullington?
4 A Nine hours.
5 Q Can you tell me a little bit about your teaching
7 A I've been employed in the Pulaski County District
8 for the past fifteen years.
9 Q What subjects do you teach now?
10 A Currently I am teaching American History and
11 International Relations.
12 Q And can you tell me some of the subjects you have
13 taught within the last very few years?
14 A I have recently taught sociology, economics,
15 Arkansas History, American Government.
16 Q What is your certification by the State Department
17 of Education?
18 A Social studies certification.
19 Q Can you tell me, in addition to those subjects which
20 you have already referred to, what other subjects you are
21 allowed to teach pursuant to that certification?
22 A In addition to those subjects, I'm certified in
23 psychology and world history and perhaps others.
24 Q Do you belong to any professional organizations?
25 A Yes, sir. I'm a member of the United Teaching
1 A (Continuing) Profession. That includes the Pulaski
2 Association of Classroom Teachers, the Arkansas Education
3 Association and the National Education Association, as
4 well as a coalition entitled Coalition Advocating
5 Responsible Education of which I serve as chairperson.
6 Q And does that bear the acronym CARE?
7 A Yes, Sir.
8 Q Have you held any offices in any of these
9 organizations other than CARE?
10 A Yes. I have been past president of the PACT?
11 Q And PACT is the Pulaski Association of Classroom
13 A Yes, Sir.
14 Q All right. Have you had an opportunity to read and
15 to review Act 590 with particular concern regarding the
16 effect that it will have upon you as a social studies
18 A Yes, Sir, I have.
19 Q Does Act 590 affect subject matter other than
21 A Interestingly enough, it does.
22 Q Do you have a copy of Act 590 in front of you?
23 A Yes, Sir.
24 Q And can you read for the Court, please, those
25 portions of that Act 590 which would apply to your
1 Q (Continuing) teaching area?
2 A In Section I it says, "Lectures, textbooks, library
3 materials or educational programs that deal in any way
4 with the subject of the origin of man, life, the earth or
5 the universe."
6 And in Section 7 it enumerates those subjects. And in
7 my area, it enumerates specifically sociology, world
8 history and social studies.
9 Q Now, have you made an effort to determine which
10 subject matter in your various courses would trigger the
11 requirements of Act 590?
12 A Yes, I have.
13 Q And in regard to that, have you reviewed the various
14 textual material in some of the textbooks you are now
15 using and have used in the last year or two?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Let me hand you three documents, which I have marked
18 for purposes of identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit
19 Numbers 37, 38 and 39, and ask you if you can identify
20 those one at a time?
21 A Exhibit 37 is an excerpt from audio visual kit
22 entitled "America Comes of Age: The Years Since 1917"
23 part three, "Dissent and Change".
24 Exhibit Number 38 is an excerpt Our Common
25 Heritage: A World History. And it's the basic world
1 A (Continuing) history textbook.
2 Exhibit 39 is an excerpt from the sociology book
3 entitled Sociology by Landis.
4 Q Are these all used at the high school level?
5 A Yes, they are.
6 Q Let's start with 37, the first textbook you
8 A Mr. Kaplan, this is an excerpt from an audio visual
9 Kit rather than a textbook.
10 Q I'm sorry. The first matter that you did identify.
11 Tell me how you believe this will trigger the Act 590
13 A There is a segment in this kit dealing with the
14 Scopes trial, in which they discuss the issue of evolution
15 as it related to being prohibited in Tennessee.
16 Q In your course, do you also bring the Scopes trial
17 up to date and mention the Epperson trial or the Epperson
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q And tell how in your view, this would trigger the
21 requirements of, this whole matter would trigger the
22 requirements of Act 590?
23 A If I discuss and update the Scopes trial and deal
24 the subject of evolution which has to do with the
25 beginnings of life, then Section I is activated which
1 A (Continuing) requires that if you deal in any way
2 with the subject of the origin of man, life, the earth or
3 the universe, then you have to deal with that in social
5 Q Have you ever taught science?
6 A No, sir, I have not. I am only certified to teach
7 social studies.
8 Q Are you competent, at least in your own view, to
9 deal with the scientific matters as they arise in
10 connection with evolution and evolution theory?
11 A From a political or social viewpoint, yes. From a
12 scientific viewpoint, no.
13 Q Can you tell me with regard to Exhibit Number 38 how
14 that would trigger the requirements of the Act?
15 A In two ways. In the beginning, it talks about
16 prehistoric man and how man is evolved from very early
17 people, the Peking and Java man to the Neanderthal man,
18 Cro-Magnon and so on.
19 And it has, for example, a chart starting with 500,000
20 years ago. In the definition section of this Act, it
21 defines creation science in Section 4(a)(6), a relatively
22 recent inception of the earth and living kinds. I believe
23 that point, that would certainly be involved in that Act.
24 Q Is there anything in your view, in your knowledge,
25 in your educational background, in your fifteen years of
1 Q (Continuing) teaching experience, which would equip
2 you in any way to deal with a balancing of this material
3 from your world history book?
4 A No. The definition says to teach creation science,
5 and it defines it in a scientific manner. And I don't
6 have that background.
7 Q Can't you now tell me what it is in Exhibit 39 which
8 you see as triggering the requirements of the Act?
9 A Yes, sir. On page 308 of this textbook, there is a
10 section entitled "Religion, a Universal Need of Humanity."
11 Q All right. Tell me what it is on 308 that in your
12 view is going to trigger Act 590?
13 A Well, there are two paragraphs in particular I would
14 like to refer to. It's on the right hand column and it
15 begins, "Nonliterate people often think that spirits
16 inhabit all things and bring about events in any manner
17 they choose." It goes on to talk about mystery and
18 miracles and supernatural events.
19 But the paragraph in question is the one entitled or
20 beginning, "In advanced societies science has progressed
21 so far that we have little need to attribute to the
22 caprice of spirits or ghosts the simple events of daily
24 Q As you read this, slow down. You're getting too
1 A That's what my students say. "With a greater
2 understanding of our world, religious ideals have changed."
3 This sentence in particular then, "Attributing to God
4 the origin of life and the universe, we try to discover
5 the natural laws. We try to govern ourselves by these
6 laws rather than expect God to change them to suit us."
7 Q In what way is that going to trigger the
8 requirements of Act 590, at least,. as you see it as a
9 classroom teacher?
10 A As I understand that, of course, on the surface it's
11 talking about the origin of life. So on the surface, its
12 face value triggers that.
13 Also, as I understand those paragraphs, we are talking
14 about on the one hand attributing to God the origin of
15 life; on the other hand we are talking about an
16 evolutionary process where we discover natural laws, and
17 we separate the two.
18 Q Mr. Bullington, as a classroom teacher, at least by
19 virtue of this last exhibit that we've looked at, you
20 already talk about religion. Let's assume for the moment
21 that Act 590 even deals with religious material.
22 Why is it that you feel you can't deal with and balance
23 Act 590 inasmuch as you already deal with some religious
24 content in your classes?
25 A I deal with religious content in a political and
1 A (Continuing) social context, not from the
2 standpoint of advancing or promoting. And from my
3 background and my understanding of creation science and
4 from visiting with the students, it is religion. Act 590
5 is religion, and you are advancing religion when you teach
7 Q What is it about Act 590, as you have read Act 590
8 and the definitional structure of it, that you view as
9 religion and advancing religion?
10 A The definition section.
11 Q Where have you ever seen those kinds of definitional
12 structures before and ideas advanced?
13 A From the time I can remember, I've been going to
14 church. And in Sunday School, our Sunday School
15 instructors I've never attended a revival in which
16 there wasn't at least one sermon on the beginning of life
17 and creationism.
18 And these type of things are always talked about in
19 Sunday School classes and in those sermons at revivals.
20 Q Is it possible for you, then, just to omit the
21 materials that you have talked to us about in Exhibits 37,
22 38 and 39 and just not deal with that material?
23 A It's possible, but I think it would be irresponsible
24 on my part to do so.
25 Q Why?
1 A I've thought about this a great deal. And from one
2 viewpoint, I think it would be ignoring important
3 historical events and important historical knowledge.
4 But in addition to that, I have students who intend to
5 progress beyond high school level into advanced training.
6 Q Particularly in your courses, are you able to tell
7 us what percentage of the young men and women who are in
8 our courses who go on to institutions of higher learning?
9 A In International Relations almost a hundred
10 percent. In my regular American History courses, it's
11 approximately fifty percent or better.
12 And my concern is that when these students are taking
13 examinations for entrance into colleges and universities,
14 and they haven't been exposed to this material and they
15 are asked questions about this material, then they are
16 going to be at a loss. They will be handicapped in
17 gaining admission to some colleges and universities.
18 I can't state that categorically, but I would fear that.
19 Q Mr. Bullington, would you omit these materials from
20 your classes?
21 A No.
22.. Q Mr. Bullington, would you balance these materials as
23 required by Act 590 by some reference to the teaching of
24 creation science?
25 A I don't feel like I can in that I'm not a science
1 A (Continuing) teacher, and the Act specifically
2 addresses the teaching of creation science. I would be
3 jeopardizing, for one thing, our accreditation dealing
4 with certification of teachers out of their field.
5 Q Mr. Bullington, you told us already that you have
6 served as the president of PACT. In connection with that
7 service, have you had occasion to be with and to represent
8 teachers whose contracts have not been renewed by the
9 Pulaski County Special District?
10 A Yes, I have.
11 Q And can you tell me the frequency of such
12 familiarity with these processes and with these events?
13 A During my tenure as president and subsequent years
14 working with the various committees and organizations in
15 PACT, we deal with this every year, anywhere from two to
16 three to four formal cases as well as numerous informal
18 Q Can you tell me particularly if they might relate to
19 the kinds of matters that might come up under the
20 implementation of 590, some of the reasons for which
21 teachers have had contracts which have not been renewed?
22 A Yes. Parental complaints have sparked recommenda-
23 tions for terminations and nonrenewals. of course, those
24 oftentimes come from their students.
25 There is an interesting note the other day, for example,
1 A (Continuing) when I was back in my classroom. We
2 were discussing this case. They were asking me about it.
3 And they viewed, had two observations. One, that it was
4 religion. And, two, when I explained to them about the
5 balanced treatment concept in the law, they indicated that
6 they would monitor it, the students would monitor it, and
7 they would tell their parents if a teacher wasn't doing it
9 So I can see very easily how students would become sort
10 of vigilante groups, monitoring teachers and recommending
11 to parents, `well, this teacher is not doing a good job',
12 and that resulting in a complaint to the principal and
13 resulting in complaints from administration.
14 Q Have you been instrumental in the adoption by the
15 Pulaski County Special School District of a policy
16 regarding academic responsibility?
17 A Yes, I have.
18 Q Let me hand you a document which has been marked for
19 purposes of identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number
20 36 and ask you if you can identify that document?
21 A This is the policy that was drafted and presented by
22 the Coalition Advocating Responsible Education to the
23 Pulaski County Special School District. It was
24 subsequently amended in a couple of areas and adopted by
25 the school board.
1 Q Can you tell us approximately how old this document
2 is and how long it has been in effect?
3 A Almost two months.
4 Q So it's a quite recent publication, is that correct,
5 or policy?
6 A Yes. It was adopted, if my memory serves me
7 correct, on October 13th.
8 MR. KAPLAN: Your Honor, that concludes my interro-
9 gation of Mr. Bullington. Pursuant to an agreement which
10 we have reached with counsel for the State, they have
11 asked and we have agreed to defer his cross examination
12 until after the direct examination of Ms. Marianne Wilson,
13 if that is satisfactory with the Court.
14 THE COURT All right.
15 MR. KAPLAN: Your Honor, I would move admission of
16 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 36, 37, 38 and 39.
17 THE COURT They will be received.
20 called on behalf of the Plaintiffs herein, after having
21 been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and
22 testified as follows:
24 BY MR. KAPLAN:
25 Q Tell us your name and address, please?
1 A Marianne Wilson. 1500 Dixon Road, Little Rock.
2 Q Ms. Wilson, what's your occupation?
3 A I'm the science coordinator for the Pulaski County
4 School District.
5 Q Tell me a little bit about your education, where you
6 got your college and other degrees".
7 A From the University of Central Arkansas in Conway, I
8 have an M.S.E. degree in physical science. Also I have a
9 B.S.E. degree in physical science.
10 Q Have you got any work beyond, any hours beyond your
11 Master of Science in Education?
12 A I have fifteen hours above my Master's Degree.
13 Q Can you tell me a little bit about your teaching
14 experience in the classroom and about your administrative
15 experience, also?
16 A I was a classroom teacher for ten years, and I have
17 held the position of science coordinator for two years.
18 Q Did you serve in that science coordinator position
19 for some period parttime before the two year experience
20 you've just told us about?
21 A I served in a similar position in that it was termed
22 a science specialist, and part-time for six years.
23 Q Ms. Wilson, let me hand you a document which has
24 been marked for purposes of identification as Plaintiffs'
25 Exhibit Number 34, and can you tell me what that is?
1 A It is my job classification.
2 Q And are you responsible for performing all of the
3 duties and responsibilities that are enumerated under the
4 responsibility section of that document?
5 A Yes, I am.
6 MR. KAPLAN: Your Honor, we would offer Number 34.
7 THE COURT Okay, sir.
8 MR. KAPLAN: (Continuing)
9 Q Can you give me some brief notion, since we've
10 already put your job description in evidence, of the broad
11 areas of responsibility which you exercise?
12 A All kinds of problems in the classroom. I help
13 evaluate materials materials meaning textbooks, media
14 that are used in the classroom assist the teacher in
15 any kind of problems they have as far as correlation of
16 materials, material content, supplemental materials,
17 problems with students, student-teacher relationships and
18 student-parent relationships, administrative procedures as
19 far as evaluating.
20 Q You evaluate the actual classroom science teacher?
21 A I can if called, if asked to.
22 Q Can you tell me something about the administrative
23 hierarchy above you? That is, to whom do you report and
24 to whom do those individuals report?
25 A I report to Mr. Gene Jones who is responsible for secondary
instructions, 7 through 12. He, in turn,
1 A (Continuing) reports to Doctor Measel who is
2 assistant superintendent for instruction, K through 12. He,
3 in turn, reports to the superintendent of our schools, Mr.
4 Tom Hardin.
5 Q Can you tell me if any of those three people, Mr.
6 Jones, Mr. Measel and Mr. Hardin, have any experience in
7 science or in science education?
8 A No.
9 Q Are you, then, together with the one other science
10 coordinator in the district, the highest ranking science
11 curriculum individual employed by the Pulaski County
12 Special School District?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Have you served on the State textbook selection
16 A Yes.
17 Q And when did you serve in that capacity?
18 A Late summer and early fall of 1979, I believe.
19 Q Is that the last time that the State textbook
20 selection committee for the sciences was convened?
21 A And I must classify, it was for textbooks 9 through
23 Q 9 through 12?
24 A 9 through 12.
25 Q And how long is that selection good for?
1 A Five years.
2 Q Was evolution considered I mean, was evolution
3 present, at least, in all of the biology textbooks that
4 you reviewed?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Tell me a little bit about Pulaski County itself,
7 the size of the district?
8 A The size in terms of the number of pupils?
9 Q Please.
10 A Approximately thirty-one hundred plus.
11 Q Thirty-one hundred or
12 A I mean thousand. Excuse me.
13 Q And, indeed, is that the largest school district in
14 the State of Arkansas?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Approximately how many teachers do you have that are
17 certified in science in grades 7 through 9?
18 A Fifty-three.
19 Q And do you know of your own knowledge approximately
20 how many are in grades 10 through 12?
21 A Close to the same number. Some of them overlap in
22 that if we have a 7 through 12, school we might have a
23 seventh grade teacher that also teaches tenth grade
24 biology. So a few of those would be one and the same
1 Q But these are all teachers
2 A For about ninety altogether.
3 Q All right. And these teachers are all teachers
4 whose certification by the State of Arkansas entitles them
5 to teach in the area of the sciences, is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And do you have to be certified separately for
8 chemistry or biology or physics?
9 A Yes.
10 Q With regard to elementary teachers, do elementary
11 teachers have to be separately certified in science?
12 A No.
13 Q What is their certification?
14 A They just certify in elementary education, broad
16 Q Can you tell me something about the range of
17 experience and knowledge about scientific matters that you
18 find even in those teachers who have science
20 A We have people that have physical education degrees
21 that because they took courses such as kinesiology they
22 meet certification requirements in the State of Arkansas.
23 Also, teachers in home economics because of different
24 courses that they have taken meet science certification
25 all the way up to people that have M.S.E. degrees in
1 A (Continuing) biology or M.S.E., Master of Science
2 in Education, degrees in physics, and even advanced work
3 in some of those fields.
4 So we have a very broad range of teacher training.
5 Q Does that make a difference in how the curriculum
6 coordinator has to operate and the problems that you face?
7 A Yes, it does.
8 Q Can you tell me something about that?
9 A Well, some people, for example, a home ec teacher
10 might be weak in the field of physics. And as far as, you
11 know, having to get all the basic information or just
12 understand some of the concepts in physics itself to teach
13 the junior high students, so they certainly need more help
14 than the person who has a Master's in physical science
15 teaching, say, an eight grade student, who has a very good
16 working knowledge of the subject area.
17 Q Let's, then, pay particular attention to the junior
18 high school level. And can you tell me, please, the
19 progression of science subjects as they are taught in the
20 junior high schools, and describe for me in a very brief
21 manner the kinds of subjects that are included each year?
22 A In the seventh grade science classes, we emphasize
23 life science, zoology and botany. In the eighth grade
24 science classes, it's physical science which deals in the
1 A (Continuing) fields of physics and chemistry. And
2 in the ninth grade science classes, it is termed general
3 science, but we have tried to make an emphasis on earth
4 science. And then we try to introduce the field of
5 biology in the last nine weeks of school because that's
6 the next subject that they are going to in the tenth
7 grade, and we want them to have a basis before they get
9 Q Let me hand you a document which I have marked for
10 purposes of identification as Plaintiffs' Number 26 and
11 ask you if you can identify Number 26?
12 A It is a chapter out of our Focus on Life Science
13 text which we use in the seventh grade dealing Well,
14 the chapter is entitled, "The Theory of Evolution."
15 Q And do you actually cover all of that material in
16 the seventh grade? Not necessarily every word, but do you
17 cover the chapter on evolution in the seventh grade?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And is that part of your core curriculum?
20 A Yes.
21 MR. KAPLAN: Your Honor, we would offer Number 26?
22 THE COURT It will be received.
23 MR. KAPLAN: (Continuing)
24 Q Before we go any further, let's talk about the
25 curriculum. Let me hand you a document which I have
1 Q (Continuing) marked for purposes of identification
2 as Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 27 and ask if you can
3 identify that?
4 A It is copy of our "Outline of Content and Resource
5 Units" that we have developed specifically for junior high
6 science, grades 7 through 9.
7 MR. KAPLAN: Your Honor, we would offer Number 27.
8 THE COURT It will be received.
9 MR. KAPLAN: (Continuing)
10 Q Now, with particular reference to Number 27, I'd
11 like for you to amplify for the Court, if you would, with
12 regard to the structure of this document, and pay
13 particular attention to some of these units at the back?
14 including oceanography, meteorology, geology, and how
15 those came to be in the curriculum?
16 A Well, we develop the unit. And by "well, I mean
17 myself along with seventh, eighth and ninth grade
18 teachers. We took our three books that we had adopted and
19 kind of fixed in our minds, we isolated them from ever
20 having science before in the elementary school and never
21 getting science again after they left the ninth grade.
22 And we wanted to try to give them as broad and
23 comprehensive a scope in science as we possibly could. So
24 we set out our three books and saw areas that they over-
25 lapped, and, you know, tried to decide
1 A (Continuing)
2 For example, in the seventh grade textbook, they have a
3 chapter on chemistry that deals with the atom. We also
4 have those chapters dealing with chemistry in the eighth
5 grade, so we saw no need in wasting time covering that
6 chapter in the seventh grade since they were going to get
7 it in the eighth grade.
8 So we went through and kind of weeded out, you know, and
9 pinpointed certain areas in instruction. Then we looked
10 at the particular area to see if there was any weaknesses.
11 Q Now, when you say "well, were you yourself involved
12 in this process?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And is this document, Number 27, a product of your
15 work as well as the work of your fellow teachers in the
16 Pulaski County Special School District?
17 A Yes. In fact, it has my name in the front.
18 Q All right.
19 A Okay. We looked at areas to see if everything
20 wasfor the weak areas. And for example, in the area of
21 earth science, which we wanted particular emphasis on, one
22 of the reasons being, usually a student had to have only
23 one credit when they went to the high school, which was
24 usually the biological science, so we definitely wanted
25 them to have some knowledge of earth science.
1 A (Continuing)
2 So we beefed up, so to speak, the units of earth science
3 in that we wrote supplemental units or resource units in
4 the fields of, in this particular case, astronomy,
5 geology, oceanography and meteorology.
6 Q Tell me the process by which you developed those
7 units? Where you looked for the materials, the kind of
8 materials you included and so forth?
9 A We looked for materials just about anywhere and
10 everywhere we possibly could. As far as libraries, I
11 usually have lists of references for that particular
12 subject as far as content and then, too, for media because
13 when you develop a resource unit, that means you don't
14 have the material in a text. That's just by the lecture
15 method, which is a poor method for junior high students to
16 get turned on to.
17 You have to present different types of media to explain
18 the specific points, especially in science you need some
19 type of bringing it more down to their level.
20 So first of all, we wrote our objective, what was our
21 objective for a particular unit. Then we wrote the topics
22 that we wanted to cover and developed specific objectives
23 for each topic. And then we pretty well made out an
24 outline of content. We took the topics and broke them
25 down as far as what exact items would fall into the
1 A (Continuing) content.
2 And then we wrote activities up that would demonstrate
3 that topic . And then we wrote up vocabulary lists that
4 the students would need, a working vocabulary, in order to
5 understand, say, oceanography.
6 Then we compiled a resource list that was anywhere from
7 books in which you could find supplemental information, a
8 film strip that would support that topic or bring it more
9 to life, transparencies, slides, if there weren't any
10 films, if there were any, pamphlets that you could write
11 off to.
12 We would, you, know, try to use like the weather bureau
13 or Washington D.C. has a lot of free material that we can
14 utilize in the classroom.
15 Q is cost a consideration when you do all this?
16 A Oh, most definitely.
17 Q Okay. And in all of these areas, does your school
18 district already have materials that are on the approved
19 instructional aids and auxiliaries that are approved by
20 the state for which you can get supplemented income in its
21 catalogue of materials?
22 That is, do you already have all of this stuff in your
23 library of materials?
24 A Do we already have all the stuff that's on the state
25 textbook list?
Q No, no. That you have for your curriculum.
1 A No.
2 Q And how does a teacher go about getting that
3 material if a teacher doesn't have it in the school?
4 A Well, if it's something that we list We specify
5 if the document is free. And if it is, the teacher writes
6 to the address that we have provided for them and request
7 X number of copies Sometimes they will just give you
8 one to use in her classroom.
9 Or usually the teacher will go to the media director,
10 also known as the librarian, to purchase film strips. We
11 usually can never purchase a film because of the cost.
12 Q Were you able for every single one of those units to
13 find materials from regular science publishers and find
14 materials in the literature in libraries in both your
15 school library and public libraries
16 A Yes.
17 Q And did all of those meet the criteria that you have
18 we'll get to in a minute what those criteria are
19 that you have for scientific materials and materials done
20 in a scientific method?
21 A Yes. In fact, we didn't include them if we hadn't
22 already looked at them.
23 Q How are texts selected for the school district in
24 grades 7 through 9? We've had, some discussion about it,
25 but we haven't had any complete analysis of the actual
1 Q (Continuing) Mechanism in 7 through 9, or even in
2 10 through 12.
3 A All right. In 7 through 9, in particular, we have a
4 junior high committee which is composed of seventh, eighth
5 and ninth grade teachers.
6 Then on the high school level if you are choosing a
7 textbook for physics or for chemistry, a specific subject,
8 there is a committee of physics teachers.
9 Being more specific, the teachers are asked to serve on
10 the committee. Sometimes for various reasons some
11 teachers just literally don't want to be away from their
12 classroom three or four times to serve on a committee or
13 don't have the time for various reasons to be, you know,
14 have time to go through all the texts and give them an
15 adequate evaluation.
16 But they are asked, and for the most part, they usually
17 do serve on the committee. And the committee meets
18 several times. We meet initially to establish our purpose
19 and, you know, tell what's going to go on and get
20 everybody's address right because then they are mailed all
21 of the textbooks from the state textbook approved list
22 because that's the only list we can use state monies to
23 buy from.
24 And we meet back again, usually for kind of a general
25 discussion. Well, you know, do we want physical science
in the eighth grade or do we want geology in the eighth
1 A (Continuing) grade or do we want life science. We
2 kind of come to a general consensus of what is going to be
3 seventh, what's going to be eighth.
4 And that's usually kind of set for us because a lot of
5 times the publishers already have life science as seventh
6 grade, like that. So we don't have a big decision there
7 to make.
8 And then more time is given to evaluate the textbooks.
9 We kind of do a weeding down process and narrow them down
10 to three books, sometimes two. Then those two books are
11 taken back
12 And the teachers that represent their school, they go
13 then to the teachers in their school and let them have an
14 opportunity. You know, like if there is a seventh grade
15 teacher representing 7 through 9, if they are going to
16 make a decision for those people, they like to have their
18 And we battle it out and get one book.
19 Q Is it possible for a student to complete the ninth
20 grade with one of these general science courses and not
21 have to take another science again by the time that
22 student graduates from high school?
23 A The requirements of our school district is they have
24 two science credits.
25 Q And that's in grades 7 through 9?
1 A No. It's grades 9 through 12. They only start
2 getting credit in the ninth grade.
3 Q And they have to take one credit in the ninth grade,
4 earth science?
5 A That is a generally accepted rule that they have two
6 science credits, one being in biology. It does not say
7 specifically that that student has to take ninth grade
8 science, but they always do.
9 Q Does one of the credits have to be in biology?
10 A I believe so. One of the credits is in biological
12 Q Do all of the biology textbooks in your district
13 deal with evolution and the theory of evolution?
14 A Pardon.
15 Q Do all of the biology texts in your school district
16 deal with evolution?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is it possible, indeed, to teach biology without
19 teaching the theory of evolution?
20 A Not in my opinion.
21 Q There has been some reference here to a resolution
22 by the Pulaski County Special School District regarding
23 the teaching of creation science. Can you tell me when
24 you first learned about such an effort?
25 A Probably in late December.
1 Q 1980?
2 A 1980.
3 Q Tell me how you learned?
4 A Because I was visiting a school in which Mr. Fisher
5 taught, Mr. Larry Fisher. And in talking to him in the
6 office, he gave me a document and said, `I'm going to send
7 this to the school board members and try to get on the
8 agenda and get a proposal made in January.'
9 Q Did he show you the proposal?
10 A He showed me the proposal, and I briefly looked at
11 it and gave it back to him, didn't think anything more
12 about it, really.
13 Q What is the next thing you heard about it?
14 A He got on the agenda, and the school board passed a
15 mandate that we were to incorporate a unit on creationism
16 in our science class.
17 Q Were you ever consulted by the board before that
18 unit was, before that resolution of the school district?
19 A No.
20 Q Tell me then what is the next thing that you knew
21 about or heard about in connection with the creation
22 science unit?
23 A I believe it was the day after the school board
24 meeting, they called us in and said we were going to have
25 to get a committee together. And since part of my job
1 A (Continuing) description is to help in curriculum
2 writing, I would be part of the committee.
3 And we were going to have to come up with a curriculum
4 to meet the requirements of the school board. And I said,
5 `Could I see the proposal', and I read it.
6 Q And what was your view after you read it?
7 A Well, my view is that Mr. Fisher has the right to do
8 that, by all means. I didn't know what scientific
9 creationism was. I'd never come across it in my training
10 as a science teacher. I didn't know what it was.
11 Q Did you make some attempt
12 A In reading the points about the flood, since the
13 only time I'd ever heard of a worldwide flood was in the
14 book of Genesis, I kind of raised my eyebrows to it.
15 Q Did you have any further discussions with him or
16 with anyone else regarding this matter before the
17 committee was appointed?
18 A Mr. Fisher?
19 Q Yes.
20 A Before the committee actually first met, I think I
21 probably asked him what was scientific creationism, and he
22 gave me a general description. And he more or less said,
23 `Did you see where I got it passed', kind of deal. Not
24 any detailed discussion about it, no.
25 Q Was the first committee meeting the first time that
1 Q (Continuing) you heard anything in anymore detail
2 about scientific creationism?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And Mr. Wood has already testified about that. And
5 did you serve on that committee?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Mr. Wood also testified that he reported back as
8 spokesperson for that committee to the school district.
9 And can you tell me what the reaction of the school
10 district was and then what your involvement immediately
11 after that became?
12 A I attended the meeting, the school board meeting in
13 which Mr. Wood presented the opinion of the committee.
14 And my perception was that the school board said, `We
15 didn't ask for your opinion; we asked you to write a
16 curriculum. You didn't do what we told you to do. You
17 know, go back, get busy.'
18 Q What was your next involvement?
19 A So right after the school board meeting, my boss,
20 Mr. Dean Jones, called me in and said, `Get busy.' It was
21 pointless to utilize the whole committee probably through
22 monetary reasons. We couldn't release that many teachers
23 to work as long as it did take us to work. You know, pay
24 substitutes and whatever. You know, it just wouldn't be
25 feasible to do that, plus the committee was opposed, too,
1 A (Continuing) that this was just not valid science,
2 and we were asking them to do something that they did not
3 believe in, which causes some difficulty in itself.
4 Q Were you opposed, also, or were you in favor?
5 A I was not in favor. I still wanted to know what
6 creationism was exactly. I had an open mind about it. I
7 guess I thought if I sat quietly enough, it would slide
8 under the door and nobody would notice.
9 But anyway, partly because of my job position, I was
10 asked to write the curriculum. It was myself and Mr.
11 Fisher and then Mr. Jones would also, and he was on the
12 original committee, too. We would be the three people
13 involved in completing the task.
14 Mr. Fisher, because he proposed it and because he did
15 have in his possession all of the materials that, or the
16 only materials that we knew of at the time.
17 Q Can you tell me approximately when you began working
18 with Mr. Fisher and the mechanism that you set up by which
19 you first began to undertake the development of this
21 A Well, the proposal was made at the January board
22 meeting. We met a two times. We reported to the February
23 board meeting. So we started work in late February. The
24 first thing I did was to ask Mr. Fisher I sat down with
25 him. You know, I wanted him to go over just exactly what
1 A (Continuing) this was. I couldn't exactly accept
2 it just because he said what scientific creationism was.
3 You know, it was just kind of `so what.'
4 So I asked him to give me some books. I myself on the
5 committee had not taken a book and reviewed it and
6 reported to the committee. By the time it got around to
7 me, the books were all taken. That was the reason I
8 didn't get a book.
9 So I took some books and began reading.
10 Q Do you recall the books that you did take?
11 A The Genesis Flood, Evolution: The Fossils Say No.
12 There was a book, Origins: Two Model Approach. I would,
13 like, take a book and take it back to him, and he'd give
14 me another book.
15 Q Do you recall approximately how many you read
16 through this process?
17 A Through the entire process of developing the unit?
18 Q Yes.
19 A And read in its entirety?
20 Q Well, at least excerpts from?
21 A Fifteen to twenty books.
22 Q Have you told us now
23 A From Mr. Fisher.
24 Q Right. And did you read books and investigate other
25 materials other than those that he gave you?