1 MR. NOVIK: (Continuing) identification.
2 Q Does that exhibit contain a chart illustrating
3 punctuated equilibrium?
4 A Yes. I have two charts here. The first, your
5 Honor, illustrates the principle of gradual-
6 Q What page would that be?
7 A That is on page 642. -illustrating the slow and
8 steady transformation of a single population.
9 The next page, page 643, illustrates punctuated
10 equilibrium in which we see that in geological
11 perspectives, though remember, we're talking about tens of
12 thousands of years, that in geological perspective,
13 species are originating in periods of time that are not
14 geologically resolvable and are represented by single
15 bedding planes and, therefore, appear in the record
17 I might say at this point, if I may, that there are two
18 rather different senses that would turn gap into record.
19 The first one refers to an existence of all interceptable
20 intermediate degrees. And to that extent, those are gaps,
21 and I believe they are gaps because indeed, evolution
22 doesn't work that way, usually. They are gaps because
23 that is not how evolution occur.
24 There is another sense of gaps in the record claiming,
25 in other words, there are not transitional forms
1 A (Continuing) whatsoever in the fossil record.
2 It's, in fact, patently false.
3 Indeed, on page 643, if you consult the chart, we do
4 display an evolutionary trend here on the right, and
5 evolutionary trends are very common in the fossil record.
6 Punctuate equilibrium does not propose to deny it. By
7 evolutionary trends, we mean the existence of intermediate
8 forms, structurally intermediate forms between ancestors
9 in the sense that we don't have every single set, and we
10 find transitional forms like that very abundant in the
11 fossil record.
12 But the theory of punctuated equilibrium says that you
13 shouldn't expect to find all interceptable intermediate
14 degrees. It's not like rolling a ball up an inclined
15 plane, it's rather, a trend is more like climbing a
16 staircase, where each step would be geologically abrupt.
17 In that sense that are many transitional forms in the
18 fossil record.
19 I might also state that when the geological evidence is
20 unusually good, that we can even see what's happening
21 within one of these punctuations.
22 Q Within one of these bedding planes, as you refer to
24 A What is usually bedding planes, but in very rare
25 geological circumstances, we have finer geological
1 A (Continuing) resolution. Those ten thousand years
2 may be represented by a sequence of deposits, and we can
3 see what is actually happening within that interval of
4 tens of thousands of years.
5 MR. NOVIK: Your Honor, I'd like to move that
6 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 101 for identification be received in
8 THE COURT: It will be received.
9 Q Professor Gould, you have testified that in some
10 rare instances you can find actual evidence of
11 punctuation; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Can you give us an example of such?
14 A There is one very good example that is published in
15 Nature magazine by Peter Williamson. It concerns the
16 evolution of several species of fresh water clams and
17 snails in African lakes during the past two million
18 years. At two different times water levels went down and
19 the lakes became isolated.
20 Now, in lakes you often get much finer grained
21 preservation of strata than usual, so you can actually see
22 what's happening within one of these punctuations.
23 So the lakes become isolated, and we can see in the
24 sequence of strata the transformation of ancestors and
25 descendants within a period of time that is on the order
1 A (Continuing) of tens of thousand of years.
2 I have submitted three photographs-
3 Q Would it assist you in your testimony to refer to
4 these photographs?
5 A Yes, it would.
6 Q Let me state for the record, Professor Gould, that
7 these photographs have been previously marked as
8 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 123 for identification.
9 A In the first photograph, marked number one, you
10 see, your Honor, on your left is the ancestral form. It's
11 a snail that has a very smooth outline, and on your right
12 is a descendant form that comes from higher strata. You
13 notice that the outline is stepped, more like the Empire
14 State Building, in a way.
15 The second photograph shows the actual sequence of
16 intermediate forms. Again, on your left is the ancestor,
17 on your right is the descendant. The three or four snails
18 in the middle are average representatives from a sequence
19 of strata representing tens of thousands of years.
20 And the third, which is the most remarkable that we
21 actually have evidence for the mechanism whereby this
22 transition occurred, we have three rows there. The top
23 row represents a sequence of representative series of
24 snails from the lowermost strata, in the ancestral form.
25 And you'll note that there's not a great deal of
1 A (Continuing) variability. They all look pretty
2 much alike.
3 On the bottom row are the descendant forms, the ones in
4 the uppermost strata in this sequence, and they all,
5 again, look pretty much alike, but they are different
6 forms. These are the ones that have the stepped like
8 In the middle row, notice that there is an enormous
9 expansion of the variability. Presumably, under
10 conditions of stress and rapid evolution, there are
11 enormous expansions of variability. There you have a much
12 wider range of variation. There are some snails that look
13 smooth in outline, there are some that look pretty much
14 stepped, and there are all intermediate degrees.
15 Here is what happened, you get a big expansion of
16 variability, and the natural selection or some other
17 process eliminated those of the ancestral form. And from
18 that expanded spectrum and variability, only the ones that
19 had the stepped-like outline were preserved.
20 And in the sequence, we, therefore, actually see the
21 process of speciation occurring. So it's not true to say
22 that punctuated equilibrium is just an argument born of
23 despair, because you don't see transitional forms. When
24 the geological record is unusually good, you do, indeed,
25 see them.
1 Q Professor Gould, how does creation science deal
2 with the theory of punctuated equilibrium?
3 A From the literature I've read, it's been very badly
4 distorted in two ways. First, it's been claimed that
5 punctuated equilibrium is a theory of truly sudden
6 saltation, that is, jump to a new form of life in a single
7 generation. That is a kind of fantasy.
8 The theory of punctuated equilibrium doesn't say that.
9 It merely says that the correct geological representation
10 of speciation in tens of thousands of years will be
11 geologically instantaneous origin.
12 The second distortion is to claim that under punctuated
13 equilibrium we argue that entire evolutionary sequences
14 can be produced in single steps. In the transition from
15 reptile to mammal or from amphibian to reptile might be
16 accomplished under punctuated equilibrium in a single
17 step. That's manifestly false.
18 The punctuations in punctuated equilibrium are in much
19 smaller scale record the origin of new species. And we
20 certainly believe that in the origin of mammals from
21 reptiles that many, many steps of speciation were
23 Again, as I said, it's like climbing a staircase. But
24 believers and those who advocate the theory of punctuated
25 equilibrium would never claim mammals arose from reptiles
1 A (Continuing) in a single step. And yet that is
2 how it's often depicted in the creation science literature.
3 Can I give an example?
4 Q Certainly. Let me offer you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 57
5 pre-marked for identification.
6 A The Fossils: Key to the Present, by Bliss, Parker
7 and Gish.
8 On page 60 we have a representation of punctuated
9 equilibrium which distorts it exactly in that way. The
10 diagram implies that the transition from fish to amphibian
11 and from amphibian to reptile and from reptile to mammal
12 and from mammal to man occur, each one, in a single step.
13 And that, therefore, there are no transitional forms.
14 The theory of punctuated equilibrium does not say there
15 are no transitional forms. When we're talking about large
16 scale evolutionary trends, there are many transitional
18 MR. NOVIK: Your Honor, at this point, before we go
19 on, I'd like to offer Plaintiffs' Exhibit 123, the
20 photographs, in evidence.
21 THE COURT: They will be received.
22 Q So the charts from creation science literature on
23 which you are relying suggests that punctuated equilibrium
24 would require great leaps from-
25 A Yes. Single step transitions, in what we, in fact,
1 A (Continuing) believe are evolutionary trends in
2 which ancestor and descendent are connected by many
3 intermediate steps. But again, they are not smooth,
4 gradual transitions, because evolution doesn't work that
5 way. It's more like climbing steps.
6 Q And that's not what the theory suggests at all?
7 A No.
8 Q Does the fossil record provide evidence for the
9 existence of transitional forms?
10 A Yes, it does.
11 Q Are there many such examples?
12 A Yes, there are.
13 Q Could you give us one example?
14 A One very prominent one is the remarkable
15 intermediate between reptiles and birds called
16 Archaeopteryx. Archaeopteryx is regarded as an
17 intermediate form because it occurs, first of all, so
18 early in the history of birds. But secondly, and more
19 importantly, is a remarkable mixture of features of
20 reptiles and birds.
21 Now, I should say that we don't expect evolution to
22 occur by the slow and steady transformation of all parts
23 of an organism at the same rate; therefore, we find an
24 organism that has some features that are very birdlike and
25 some that are very reptile-like. That's exactly what we
1 A (Continuing) would expect in an intermediate form,
2 and that's what we find in Archaeopteryx.
3 Archaeopteryx has feathers, and those feathers are very
4 much like the feathers of modern birds. Archaeopteryx
5 also has a so-called furcula or wishbone, as in modern
7 However, in virtually all other features of its anatomy
8 point by point, it has the skeletal structure of a
9 reptile; in fact, very much like that of small running
10 dinosaurs that presumably were their ancestors.
11 For example, it seems to lack the expanded sternum or
12 breastbone to which the flight muscles of birds are
13 attached. It has a reptilian tail. And detail after
14 detail of the anatomy proves its reptilian form.
15 Most outstandingly, it possesses teeth, and no modern
16 birds possessed teeth. Archaeopteryx and other early
17 birds possess teeth, and the teeth are of reptilian form.
18 I can also say, though this is not the opinion of all
19 paleontologists, but many paleontologists believe that if
20 you study the arrangement of the feathers and the inferred
21 flight musculature of Archaeopteryx, that it, in fact, if
22 it flew at all, and it may not have, was a very poor flier
23 indeed, and would have been intermediate in that sense, as
25 Q How do creation scientists deal with this evidence
1 Q (Continuing) of a transitional form?
2 A Again, mostly by ignoring it. And using the
3 specious argument based on definition rather than
4 morphology -
5 Q What do you mean by morphology?
6 A Morphology is the form of an organism, the form of
7 the bones as we find them in the fossil record.
8 In that sense, Archaeopteryx had feathers, and since
9 feathers are used to define birds, that, therefore,
10 Archaeopteryx is all bird, thereby neglecting its
11 reptilian features. The question of definition is rather
12 different from a question of the assessment of morphology.
13 For example, Duane Gish, in Evolution: The Fossils Say
15 MR. NOVIK: That's Plaintiffs' 78 for
16 identification, your Honor.
17 A -says on page 90, "The so-called intermediate is
18 no real intermediate at all because, as paleontologists
19 acknowledge, Archaeopteryx was a true bird - it had
20 wings, it was completely feathered, it flew. It was not
21 a half-way bird, it was a bird."
22 And then for the most part just ignoring and not talking
23 about all the reptilian features of Archaeopteryx, or by
24 using another specious argument to get around the most
25 difficult problem, namely, the teeth of Archaeopteryx.
1 A (Continuing)
2 Gish writes on page 92, "While modern birds do not
3 possess teeth, some ancient birds possessed teeth, while
4 some other did not. Does the possession of teeth denote a
5 reptilian ancestry for birds, or does it simply prove that
6 some ancient bird had teeth while others did not? Some
7 reptiles have teeth while some do not. Some amphibians
8 have teeth, out some do not. In fact, this is true
9 throughout the entire range of the vertebrate subphylum -
10 fishes, Amphibia, Reptilia, Aves," - that is birds -
11 "and Mammalia, inclusive."
12 That, to me, is a specious argument. It's just a
13 vaguely important question. Yes, it's true, some reptiles
14 have teeth and some don't. But the important thing about
15 the fossil record of birds is that the only birds that
16 have teeth occur early in the history of birds, and those
17 teeth are reptilian in form. Thus, you have to deal with
18 not just the issue of some do and some don't, and that is
19 not discussed.
20 Q Professor Gould, you have just talked about a
21 transitional form, Archaeopteryx. Could you give an
22 example of an entire transitional sequence in the fossil
24 A Yes. A very good example is that provided by our
25 own group, the mammals.
1 Q Would it assist you in your testimony to refer to
2 an exhibit?
3 A Yes. I have a series of skulls illustrating the most
4 important aspect of this transition.
5 Now, in terms of features that would be-
6 Q Let me state for the record, Professor Gould, I
7 have just handed you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 125 for
9 Please continue.
10 A Yes. In terms of the evidence preserved in the
11 morphology of bones which we find in the fossil record,
12 the outstanding aspect of the transition from reptiles to
13 mammals occurs in the evolution of the jaw.
14 The reptilian jaw, lower jaw, is composed of several
15 bones, and the mammalian lower jaw is composed of a single
16 bone called the dentary.
17 We can trace the evolution of those lineages which gave
18 rise to mammals a progressive reduction in these posterior
19 or back bones of the jaw, until finally the two bones that
20 form the articulation or the contact between the upper and
21 lower jaw of reptiles becomes smaller and smaller and
22 eventually becomes two or the three middle ear bones, the
23 malleus and incus, or hammer and anvil, of mammals.
24 And you can see a progressive reduction in the charts
25 I've supplied. The first animal, Dimetrodon, is a member
1 A (Continuing) of a group called the pelycosaur,
2 which are the ancestors of the so-called therapsids or the
3 first mammal like reptiles.
4 And then within the therapsids you can trace the
5 sequence of the progressive reduction of these post
6 dentary bones until - and this is a remarkable thing -
7 in advanced members of the group that eventually gave rise
8 to mammals, a group called the cynodonts. In advanced
9 members of the cynodonts, we actually have a double
10 articulation, that is, a double jaw joint. It is one
11 formed by the old quadrate and articulate bones, which are
12 the reptilian articulation bones, the ones that become the
13 malleus and incus, the hammer and the anvil, later.
14 And then the secondary articulation formed by the
15 squamosal bone, which is the upper jaw bone of mammals
16 that makes contact with the lower. And at least in these
17 advanced cynodonts, it seems by a bone called the
18 surangular, which is one of the posterior post-dentary
19 bones, and then in a form called Probainognathus, which is
20 perhaps the most advanced of the cynodonts, you get, in
21 the squamosal bone, the actual formation of what is called
22 the glenoid fossa, or the actual hole that receives the
23 articulation from the lower jaw.
24 And in Probainognathus, it's not clear. Some
25 paleontologists think that the dentary was actually
1 A (Continuing) already established, the contact. In
2 any event the surangular seems to be in contact.
3 And then in the first mammal, which is called
4 Morganucodon, the dentary extends back, excludes the
5 surangular and you have the complete mammalian
6 articulation formed between the dentary of the lower jaw
7 and the squamosal of the upper jaw.
8 Now, Morganucodon, it appears the old quadrate
9 articulate contact is still present, the bones that go
10 into the middle ear, although some paleontologists think
11 that, in fact, that contact may have already been broken,
12 and you may have this truly intermediate stage in which
13 the quadrate and articular are no longer forming an
14 articulation, but are not yet detached and become ear
16 I might also state that if you look at the ontogeny of
17 the growth of individual mammals and their embryology,
18 that you see that sequence, that the malleus and incus,
19 the hammer and anvil, begin as bones of the jaws. And in
20 fact, in marsupials, when marsupials are first born, it is
21 a very, very undeveloped state that the jaw articulation
22 is formed still as in reptiles, and later these bones
23 actually enter the middle ear.
24 Q Now, Professor Gould, you've used a lot of
25 technical terms here. If I understand you correctly, the
1 Q (Continuing) point of this is that this transitional
2 sequence for which we have good evidence shows the
3 transformation of the jaw bones in reptiles to become the
4 ear bones in mammals; is that correct?
5 A Yes. We have a very nice sequence of intermediate
6 forms. Now again, it's not in perceptible transition
7 through all intermediary degrees, because that's not the
8 way evolution works.
9 What we do have is a good temporally ordered structural
10 sequence within the intermediate forms.
11 Q How does creation science deal with this evidence?
12 A For the most part simply by not citing it, as they
13 usually do, or by making miscitations when they do discuss
14 it. For example, again, Duane Gish, in Evolution: The
15 Fossils Say No-
16 MR. NOVIK: Plaintiffs' Exhibit 78 for
18 A -gets around the issue by discussing only a single
19 form, a form called Thrinaxodon. Now, Thrinaxodon is a
20 cynodont; that is, it is a member of the group that gave
21 rise to mammals within the therapsids, but it is, in fact,
22 a primitive cynodont. It is not close within the
23 cynodonts of the ancestry of mammals, and, therefore, it
24 does not have many of these advanced features.
25 Mr. Gish discusses only Thrinaxodon in his discussion
1 A (Continuing) and writes, "Even the so-called
2 advanced mammal-like reptile Thrinaxodon," that's an
3 interesting point. Thrinaxodon is an advanced mammal-like
4 reptile because all the cynodonts represent an advanced group.
5 But within the cynodonts, it is a primitive member
6 of that group, and therefore, would not be expected to
7 show the more advanced features.
8 "Even the so-called advanced mammal-like reptile
9 Thrinaxodon, then, had a conventional reptilian ear." We
10 are quite simply not talking about the more advanced
11 cynodonts who have the double articulation.
12 Q He does not discuss the example you have just
13 testified about at all?
14 A Not in this book published in 1979. It was
15 published long after this information became available.
16 Q And the example he does use is, in your opinion,
17 irrelevant on this point?
18 A Yes. He discusses only the genus Thrinaxodon, which
19 as I have stated, is a primitive member of the cynodonts.
20 Q Professor Gould, is there evidence of transitional
21 sequences in human evolution?
22 A Yes. It's rather remarkable that the evidence is as
23 complete as it is, considering how difficult it is for
24 human bones to fossilize.
25 Q Why is it so difficult for human bones to fossilize?
1 A Primarily for two reasons. First, there weren't
2 very many of us until rather recently. And secondly,
3 creatures that lived in fairly dry terrestrial
4 environments where rocks are more often being eroded than
5 deposited, are not often preserved as fossils.
6 Q What does the fossil record indicate with respect to
7 human evolution?
8 A A rather well formed sequence of intermediate
9 stages. The oldest fossil human, called Australopithecus
10 afarensis, or often known as "Lucy", is one of the most
11 famous specimens and a remarkable specimen is forty
12 percent complete, so it's not just based on fragments.
13 Lucy is an animal that is very much like Archaeopteryx
14 and contains a mixture of some rather advanced human
15 features with the preservation of some fairly apelike
17 For example, based on the pelvis and leg bones of
18 Australopithecus afarensis, we know that this creature
19 walked as erect as you or I and had a fairly so-called
20 bipedal gait. Indeed, we've even found fossil foot prints
21 that indicate this bipedal gait.
22 On the other hand, the cranium of Australopithecus
23 afarensis' skull, in many features, is a remarkably
24 apelike cranium and perhaps it is scarcely if at all
25 larger than the ape, with a comparable body size in the
1 A (Continuing) dentician. It is a rather nice
3 Q What do you mean by `dentician'?
4 A Teeth. Sorry. Or a mixture of apelike and
5 humanlike features. Humans have a general shape of the
6 dentician of a parabola, where apes tend to have a more,
7 look at the molars and the incisors, rather more blocky or
8 what we call quadrate outline. The outline of the palate
9 and the upper jaw of Australopithecus afarensis is quite
10 blocky, as in apes, and yet in many respects the teeth are
11 more human in form, particularly in the reduction of the
13 So Australopithecus afarensis is a remarkable
14 intermediate form which mixes together apelike and
15 humanlike features, just as we would expect. And then
16 when you go to younger rocks in Africa, you find
17 transitional forms again.
18 The first representative of our own genus, for example,
19 a form called Homo habilis, is found in rocks less than
20 two million years old and is intermediate in cranial
21 capacity between Lucy and modern humans. It has a cranial
22 capacity of seven hundred to eight hundred cubic
23 centimeters, compared to thirteen or fourteen hundred for
24 modern humans, with approximately on the order of four
25 hundred or a little less for Lucy.
1 A (Continuing)
2 And then in younger rocks, you get the next species,
3 Homo erectus, or more popularly the Java or Peking Man,
4 which is the first form that migrated out of Africa and
5 came to inhabit other continents as well.
6 And it is again an intermediate between Homo habilis in
7 brain size and modern humans, with cranial capacities on
8 the order of a thousand cubic centimeters. And then
9 finally in a much more recent strata we get the first
10 remains of our own species, Homo sapiens.
11 Q How does creation science deal with this evidence of
12 transitional forms?
13 A Again, in the literature I've read, in the most part
14 by ignoring it and by citing examples from Henry Morris'
15 Scientific Creationism, again.
16 Henry Morris does two things simply to dismiss that
17 evidence. He argues that Australopithecus is not an
18 intermediate form, out entirely an all-ape, again by
19 citing a single citation from a news report, not from
20 primary literature.
21 He writes on page 173, this is now a citation from that
22 news report. "Australopithecus limb bone have been rare
23 finds, but Leakey now has a large sample. They portray
24 Australopithecus as long-armed and short-legged. He was
25 probably a knuckle-walker, not an erect walker, as many
1 A (Continuing) archaeologist presently believe."
2 Now, gorillas and chimps are knuckle-walkers, and the
3 implication is that the Australopithecus was just an ape.
4 But I don't know where that news report came from. We
5 certainly are quite confident from the pelvis and leg
6 bones that Australopithecus walked erect. There are
7 volumes devoted to that demonstration. That is certainly
8 not decided by a certain news report that seems to
9 indicate otherwise.
10 Morris then goes on to say, "In other words,
11 Australopithecus not only had a brain like an ape, but he
12 also looked like an ape and walked like a ape."
13 And the second thing that Henry Morris does is to argue
14 that contrary to the claim I just made, that there is a
15 temporally ordered sequence to the intermediate forms.
16 Morris argued that modern humans are found in the oldest
17 rocks that preserve any human remains. And he again cites
18 a news report, but misunderstands it or miscites it.
19 The news report says, "Last year Leakey and his
20 co-workers found three jaw bones, leg bones and more than
21 400 man-made stone tools. The specimens were attributed to
22 the genus Homo."
23 Now, the claim is, yes, they were attributed to the
24 genus Homo, but it is not our species. Leakey then goes
25 on to say, "It is not our species. In fact, these belong
1 A (Continuing) to the species Homo habilis. The
2 intermediate form of the cranial capacity was seven
3 hundred to eight hundred cubic centimeters, and does
4 not show, as Morris maintains, "that a fully modern human
5 existed in the ancient strata."
6 Q Professor Gould, are you familiar with the creation
7 science argument that there are explained gaps between
8 pre-Cambrian and Cambrian life?
9 A Yes, indeed. The pre-Cambrian fossil record was
10 pretty much nonexistent until twenty or thirty years
11 ago. Creationists used to like to make a big point of
12 that. They argued, `Look, for most of earth's history
13 until you get rocks that you say are six hundred million
14 years old, there were no fossils at all.'
15 Starting about 30 years ago, we began to develop a very
16 extensive and impressive fossil record of pre-Cambrian
17 creatures. They are, indeed, only single-celled
18 creatures. And the reason we haven't found them before is
19 because we were looking for larger fossils in different
20 kinds of rocks.
21 So creation scientists had to acknowledge that, and they
22 then shifted the argument and said that, "All right, these
23 are only single-celled creatures and they are not
24 ancestors to the more complicated forms that arise in the
25 Cambrian, but there are no fossils of multi-cellular
1 A (Continuing) animals before the Cambrian strata."
2 But we've known now for about twenty years that that,
3 too, is false. There is one rather well known fauna
4 called the Ediacaran fauna, after a place in Australia
5 where it was first found, but now, in fact, found on
6 almost every continent of the earth.
7 These fossils are pre-Cambrian. They are not very
8 ancient pre-Cambrian fossils. They occur in rocks pretty
9 much just before the Cambrian. They are caught all over
10 the world invariably in strata below the first appearance
11 of still invertebrate fossils.
12 And the creation scientists, as far as I can see, for
13 the most part, just simply ignore the existence of the
14 Ediacaran fauna. For example, Duane Gish, again, in
15 Evolution: The Fossils Say No cites, although this book
16 is published in 1979, cites the following quotation by a
17 paleontologist named T. Neville George on page 70, "Granted
18 an evolutionary origin of the main groups of animals, and
19 not an act of special creation, the absence of any record
20 whatsoever of a single member of any of the phyla in the
21 pre-Cambrian rocks remains as inexplicable on orthodox
22 grounds as it was to Darwin."
23 That was a fair statement that T. Neville George made,
24 but he made it in 1960, so Mr. Gish must surely know of
25 the discovery of the Ediacaran fauna since then. I think
1 A (Continuing) he's misleading to the extreme in that
2 he continues to cite this earlier source when, in fact,
3 later discoveries had shown the existence of this
4 pre-Cambrian fauna.
5 Q Professor Gould, are there any natural law
6 explanations for the rapid diversification of
7 multicellular life forms at the beginning of the Cambrian
9 A Yes, indeed. Without in any way trying to maintain
10 the problem has been solved - it has not - we have some
11 promise and possibilities based on natural law that may
12 very well tell a large part of the story.
13 Q What explanations are those?
14 A For example, I have said there was an extensive
15 record of pre-Cambrian single-celled creatures. But all
16 of these single-celled creatures reproduced asexually, at
17 least until late in the pre-Cambrian, as far as we can
18 tell. And animals that reproduced asexually, according to
19 Darwin's theory, have very little opportunity for
20 extensive evolutionary change.
21 Under Darwin's theory, natural selection requires a
22 large pool of variability, genetic variability, upon which
23 natural selection operates. And you can't generate that
24 pool of variability in asexual creatures. In asexual
25 creatures, the offspring will be exactly like their
1 A (Continuing) parents unless a new mutation occurs,
2 but mutations are rare. And you may have a lot of
3 favorable mutations, but there is no way you can mix them
4 together. One line has one mutation and another clone
5 another mutation.
6 But it is in sexual reproduction that you can bring
7 together the favorable mutations in several lines. But
8 each sexually produced creature represents a mixture of the
9 different genetic material of two different parents. And
10 that way you can bring together all the favorable
11 mutations and produce that normal pool of variability
12 without which natural selection can't operate.
13 So it may be that the so-called Cambrian explosion is a
14 consequence of the evolution of sexuality, which allowed
15 for the first time enough variability for Darwinian
16 process to operate.
17 Q Are there any other possible natural law
19 A Yes, there are. One explanation that I find
20 intriguing which is complimentary and not contradictory to
21 the argument about sexuality, involves the characteristic
22 mode in which growth proceeds in all systems that have
23 characteristic properties. If 1 may have-
24 Q Would it help you to refer to Plaintiffs' Exhibit
1 A Yes, please. I have an illustration here-
2 Q I believe the Court has a copy of that exhibit
3 already. What page are you referring to?
4 A It's on page 653. And here we are making an analogy
5 of bacterial growth, but it is talking about
6 characteristic growth in systems with the following
7 properties, where into a system with superabundant
8 resources you introduce for the first time a creature
9 capable of self multiplication. So that if, for example,
10 you introduce a single bacterial cell onto a plate of
11 nutrients upon which it can grow, initially you're not
12 going to see, although the rate of cell division doesn't
13 change, nothing much is going to happen if one bacterial
14 cell, then two, then four, then eight, then sixteen,
15 thirty-two. You still can't see it, so the increase
16 appears to be initially quite slow. We call it a lag
18 But eventually it starts to increase much more rapidly;
19 you get a million, then two million, then four million,
20 then eight million. Even though the rate of cell division
21 hasn't changed, the appearance of the increase has
22 accelerated enormously. We call that the lag phase.
23 Then eventually it reaches the point where there is as
24 many bacteria as the medium can support and then it tapers
25 off and you have a so-called plateau. And that gives rise
1 A (Continuing) to the so called S shape, or the
2 Sigmoid curve, after the initial slow lag phase to the
3 rapid log phase and the later plateau.
4 Now, when you plot the increase of organic diversity
5 through pre-Cambrian and Cambrian transition, you seem to
6 have a very good fit to that S-shaped curve, which is what
7 you'd expect in any system in which into a regime of
8 superabundant resources you introduce a creature capable
9 of self multiplication for the first time.
10 So the lag phase is presumably indicated by the slow
11 increase in numbers of organisms at the end of the
12 pre-Cambrian, culminating in the Ediacaran fauna. The log
13 phase represents the rapid acceleration, not acceleration,
14 but rapid increase in numbers of forms that we would expect
15 in such a system gives analogous to the million, two
16 million, four million bacteria and the later plateau.
17 And, therefore, I think ordinary Sigmoidal growth may
18 well represent the Cambrian explosion. In other words,
19 the argument is the Cambrian explosion is, the log phase if
20 one is using Sigmoidal processes.
21 Q Does creation science take care of these two
22 alternative natural law explanations?
23 A I have not seen them depicted in the creation
24 science literature that I've read.
25 Q Professor Gould, does evolutionary theory presuppose
1 Q (Continuing) the absence of a creator?
2 A Certainly not. Indeed, many of my colleagues are
3 devoutly religious people. Evolution as a science does
4 not talk about the existence of a creator. It is quite
5 consistent with one or without one, so long as the creator
6 works by natural laws.
7 Q Professor Gould, do you have a professional opinion
8 concerning creation science in the areas of paleontology
9 and geology?
10 A Yes, indeed. I think they proceed by misquotation,
11 by selective quotation, and by invoking supernatural
12 intervention to produce the basic kinds of life, all of
13 which are not only unscientific, but represent skill and
14 rhetoric rather than science.
15 MR. NOVIK: I have no further questions, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: The court will be in recess until 1:30.
17 (Thereupon, Court was in recess
18 from 12:30 p.m. until 1:40 p.m.)
19 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, I will just state for the
20 record, I appreciate the opportunity to finish reading
21 Doctor Morowitz' deposition which was taken last night,
22 and the opportunity to collect my thoughts for this cross
3 having been previously sworn, was examined and testified
4 as follows:
7 BY MR CHILDS:
8 Q Doctor Morowitz, has Mr. Novik advised you that
9 Judge Overton wants all witnesses to respond to the
10 questions that are actually asked in this courtroom?
11 A Pardon?
12 Q Has Mr. Novik told you that Judge Overton wants you
13 to respond directly to the questions that are actually
14 asked of you?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q When were you first contacted about being a witness
17 in this lawsuit?
18 A Sometime within the last few weeks. I believe it
19 was in late October, although— The reason I'm
20 equivocating a bit is I was called as a consultant first,
21 to discuss some aspects of the case as an expert
22 consultant, and then my role as a witness emerged from
23 that. And the exact date of that transition, I'm not
24 clear on.
25 Q When were you first contacted to be expert to
1 Q (Continuing) advise plaintiffs in this case.
2 A Sometime in October.
3 Q Okay. I believe last night you told us that you
4 were first contacted one to two months ago?
5 A That would be sometime in October, yes.
6 Q When were you first advised that you would actually
7 testify in this lawsuit?
8 A I believe that was about two weeks ago.
9 Q Were you advised that your testimony would be
10 because that Doctor Carl Sagan was unable to testify?
11 A I did not discuss that with anyone, no.
12 Q Were you told why you would be a witness here?
13 A No, I was not told; I was asked to be a witness.
14 Q When was the subject matter of your testimony first
16 A At that time.
17 Q That was some two weeks ago?
18 A Yes. Whenever it was that I agreed to be a witness.
19 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor., the proposed testimony of
20 Doctor Carl Sagan was the nature of science, why creation
21 science is not science, and the relevancy of astronomy to
22 creation science.
23 It's my understanding, based on discussing with Mr. Dave
24 Williams of our office, is that Doctor Morowitz would be a
25 substitute for Doctor Sagan. I would move at this time
1 MR. CHILDS: (Continuing) that all of Doctor Morowitz'
2 testimony which was outside the scope of what we were
3 originally advised by the plaintiffs be struck from the
5 THE COURT: it seems to me like if you took Doctor
6 Morowitz' deposition last night, that a timely motion in
7 that connection would have been before he testified today.
8 MR. CHILDS: Well, your Honor, I think the Court
9 can consider at this point as only a tender in his
10 testimony for purposes of review.
11 THE COURT: I will deny that motion.
12 MR. CHILDS: (Continuing)
13 Doctor Morowitz, would you please tell Judge
14 Overton and the people here in the courtroom what
15 thermodynamics in an equilibrium state means?
16 A Thermodynamics is a field of study. It is the
17 study of energy transformations in equilibrium systems.
18 That is the field called classical thermodynamics, which
19 the term `thermodynamics' is usually used, is the study of
20 transformations of state in equilibrium systems.
21 Q Last night you told me that you have made some
22 calculations regarding the possibilities or probabilities
23 of life originating from non-life in an equilibrium state,
24 did you not?
25 A That is correct.
1 Q Would you tell Judge Overton what the odds of life
2 emerging from non-life in an equilibrium state are,
3 according to your calculations?
4 A All right. Ten to the minus ten to the tenth.
5 Q Could you relate that so that us non-scientists can
6 understand that?
7 A All right. That is one over one followed by ten
8 million zeros.
9 Q Ten million?
10 A Ten billion zeros.
11 Q Ten billion?
12 A Right.
13 Q Now then, as I understand your testimony, the
14 calculations based on an equilibrium state cannot be
15 applied to the surface of the earth?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q Can you tell me the first time that science-
18 THE COURT: Excuse me. What was that question?
19 I didn't catch the question. The last question you
20 asked, what was that?
21 MR. CHILDS: I don't have any idea. We can have
22 the court reporter read it back.
23 THE COURT: No, no. Maybe it wasn't that important.
24 MR. CHILDS: Let me see if we can start over again.
25 MR. CHILDS: (Continuing)
Q Historically, have biologists considered the
1 Q (Continuing) equilibrium theory of thermodynamics
2 applicable to the evolution of life?
3 A By and large, biologists have not dealt with that
4 subject. Thermodynamics has been the subject of
5 physicists and physical chemists.
6 Most biologists are not terribly well informed on
8 Q Okay. Let me repeat my question. Historically,
9 where the area of thermodynamics has been applied to the
10 evolution of life, has it not been the calculations that
11 would be derived from the equilibrium state?
12 A I don't know of any such specific calculations, so
13 I'm unable to answer your question. I don't recall any
14 such calculations.
15 Q Last night in your deposition you mentioned the
16 name Ilya - and I'll have to spell it —
18 A Right.
19 Q Would you pronounce that for me, please?
20 A Prigogine.
21 Q Are you familiar with an article that appeared in
22 Physics Today in November of 1972 entitled Thermodynamics
23 of Evolution, subheading being, "The functional order
24 maintained within living systems seems to defy the second
25 law. Non-equilibrium thermodynamics describes how such
1 Q (Continuing) systems come to terms with entropy."
2 A I have read that article, yes.
3 Q Do you presently recall in this article the quote,
4 "Unfortunately this principle cannot explain the formation
5 of biological structures. The probability that at
6 ordinary temperatures a macro, m-a-c-r-o, scopic number of
7 molecules is assembled to give rise to the highly
8 structures and to the coordinated functions characterizing
9 living organisms is vanishingly small"?
10 A Now, what's your question?
11 Q My question was, do you recall, do you remember
12 that statement in the article?
13 A No, I do not.
14 Q Would not that appear to be the application of the
15 calculations from equilibrium state thermodynamics to the
16 evolution of life on the surface of the earth?
17 A Well, much of Prigogine's work has dealt with
18 non-equilibrium dynamics. I think if you read on
19 following that quotation, he gets into a little more
20 detail about how the problem is solved. If you go just
21 following that quotation, the next sentence or two.
22 MR. NOVIK: Perhaps it would help if the witness
23 had a copy of the offer.
24 THE COURT: It doesn't sound like he needs one to
1 Q Professor Morowitz, if you need to refer to the
2 article, I only have one copy, I'll be glad it share it
3 with you. Is that okay?
4 A Yes.
5 Q My question is, in the historical perspective of
6 application in the field of thermodynamics to the creation
7 of life from non-life, were not your calculations, your
8 type of calculations based on an equilibrium state applied
9 to the model?
10 A The calculations based on an equilibrium state were
11 to show that life could not arise in an equilibrium
12 state. That was the scientific thrust of the argument.
13 And to my knowledge, that is the only case I'm aware of
14 where that kind of calculations has been used.
15 It is to show the necessity of open system
16 thermodynamics to study this kind of phenomenon.
17 Q I'll read you another quote. "A number of
18 investigators have believed that the origin required so
19 many chance events of such low probability that we have no
20 way of studying it within the framework of science, even
21 though it involves perfectly normal laws of nature."
22 Do you recall that statement?
23 A Yes. I wrote it.
24 Q Okay. And I believe that was with — Who was that
1 A I believe that occurs in an article with Kimbel
3 Q And then another quote in here, "The view that
4 life's origin cannot be predicted from physics because of
5 the dominance of chance factors was elaborated by Jack
6 Monod," M-o-n-o-d, "in his book Chance and Necessity." Do
7 you recall that?
8 A Yes. The article then goes on to criticize what's
9 wrong with those points of view and why they were
11 Q Bear with me, if you will.
12 My understanding of what happened in the history of the
13 application of thermodynamics to the evolution of life
14 itself, was that the first model that was applied was the
15 one that they were familiar with, which was the
16 equilibrium state.
17 A No. Monod did not deal with thermodynamics at all
18 in his work. Monod dealt with mutation rates, not with
20 Q Okay. Are you telling me that I'm wrong in my
21 understanding, that the first model that was applied was
22 the equilibrium state of thermodynamics?
23 A Other than the calculation of mine which you cited
24 which was designed to show that life could not arise in an
25 equilibrium system and must take place in an open system,
1 A (Continuing) I don't know of other calculations,
2 thermodynamic calculations related to the origin of life.
3 Q You're not aware of anybody in the field that
4 applied equilibrium theory to the evolution of life?
5 A To the origin of life.
6 Q To the origin of life?
7 A I don't recall any such calculations.
8 Q When did you do your calculations applying
9 equilibrium theory?
10 A 1966.
11 Q And when did you come up with your theory that it's
12 not equilibrium theory that should be applied, but rather
13 it should be non-equilibrium theory?
14 A I can't give you a date. Ever since I've been
15 involved in this field, probably since 1951, I believe
16 that required non-equilibrium theory, but I can't give you
17 an exact date.
18 Q When did you first postulate your theory in writing
19 that the non-equilibrium state is the correct one to apply
20 to the evolution of life itself?
21 A My book was published in 1968.
22 Q I believe that's the book that you provided to me
23 last night called Energy Flow in Biology?
24 A That is correct.
25 Q Are you familiar with the work of a fellow named Miller?
1 A Stanley Miller?
2 Q I believe so, yes, sir.
3 A There are a lot of people named Miller.
4 Q Are there any Millers other than Stanley Miller
5 that would be working in your particular area of endeavor?
6 A Not that I'm aware of.
7 Q Did Mr. Miller, or let's say Doctor Miller, did
8 Doctor Miller come up with anything unusual in the 1950's
9 in his research?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What did he come up with?
12 A In Miller's experiments, he took a system of
13 methane, ammonia and water, and in a closed system he
14 provided energy through an electrical, high frequency
15 electrical spark discharge, and he demonstrated the
16 synthesis of amino acids, carbocyclic acids, and other
17 prebiotic intermediates.
18 Q Who was the previous historian, excuse me, the
19 previous scientist in history who dealt with that same
20 subject matter on a significant basis?
21 A The origin of life?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Prior to the Miller experiment, I would say that
24 the leading name in that field was A.I. O'Parin.
25 Q And prior to that?
1 A Prior to that, in a sense, the field didn't really
3 Q Why was that?
4 A Because people believed through the 1800's that
5 life arose spontaneously all the time; that maggots arose
6 and became meat, and mice old piles of rags and so forth
7 and so on. And as long as people believed that, there was
8 no need to have a theory of the origin of life.
9 Q Who put that theory to rest?
10 A Louis Pasteur.
11 Q And what were Doctor Pasteur's experiments?
12 A Basically his final experiments that were most
13 persuasive in this field consisted of flasks of sterile
14 medium to which no organisms were admitted, and these
15 flasks remained sterile for long periods of time.
16 Q So?
17 A Meaning no growth of living organisms occurred in
19 Q What work has been done since Stanley Miller's
20 work in the area of generating life in the laboratory?
21 A Well, there have been some several thousand
22 experiments on the, of the type done by Miller, follow-up
23 experiments, where various energy sources have been
24 flowed; there has been the flow of various kinds of
25 energy through systems of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and
1 A (Continuing) oxygen, and there has been a study of
2 the kinds of molecules that are produced in such energy
3 flow systems.
4 These experiments universally show that the flow of
5 energy through a system orders it in a molecular sense.
6 Q Has anybody created life by the flow of energy?
7 A Have any of those experiments resulted in the
8 synthesis of a living cell? Is that the question?
9 Q Yes, sir.
10 A No. Not to my knowledge, anyway.
11 Q Would you say that this area has received intensive
12 scientific scrutiny in the scientific community?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you have any explanation of why you have not
15 been able to synthesize life in the laboratory?
16 A It's an extremely difficult problem.
17 Q What is the difficult —
18 A I would point out to you that we have put far more
19 money into trying to cure cancer, and that is still an
20 unsolved problem, also. We have put far more time, money,
21 effort and human endeavor into that problem, and that is
22 also an unsolved problem because it is a very difficult
24 Q What is the information you need to accomplish that?
25 A To accomplish the synthesis of a living cell?
1 Q Yes, sir.
2 A Two kinds of information. One is the detailed
3 understanding of the chemical structure of the small
4 molecules, micro molecules, organelles and other
5 structures that make up a living cell. And secondly, one
6 has to know the kinetic processes by which those
7 structures came about in prebiotic systems.
8 Q In perusing some of the literature that you've
9 written last night, I came up with an article which would
10 seem to indicate that sincerely believe that given enough
11 time and research, that you or scientists like you can
12 ultimately go back to the ultimate combinations of atoms
13 which led to the formation of molecules.
14 A That is not a question.
15 Q Do you recall an article to that effect?
16 A Well, you said "we can go back to that" and then
17 there should be an `and' clause, `and do some things'.
18 Q Do you believe that you can go back and ultimately
19 understand how atoms combined to form molecules?
20 A That is a branch of chemistry. That is rather well
22 Q Well, I'm talking about the first molecules on the
23 surface of the earth.
24 Do you understand my question?
25 A No, I don't.
1 MR. CHILDS: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 Q The article that I have is Biology as a
4 Cosmological Science, reprinted from Main Currents and
5 Modern Thought, volume 28, number 5, May through June,
7 Page 50 to, well, the page number I have on this is
8 615186. The first column is in brackets. I'd like you to
9 read that paragraph, please.
10 A "If we are able to obtain the kind of theory of
11 self-order, this kind of theory of self-ordering should
12 challenge us to apply the most profound insights we can
13 muster to link biology to non-equilibrium physical
15 "The job seems very formidable indeed, but the rewards
16 could be very great; the ability to seek out our origins
17 in terms of a law that would promulgate our action. This
18 is truly a new frontier, and one that challenges the
19 maximum intellectual effort of which we are all capable."
20 Q Do I understand this paragraph to mean that you
21 believe that you and scientists from the scientific
22 community can explain the origins of man in terms of the
23 laws of atomic interaction?
24 A I believe that the origin of life can be explained
25 in terms of the laws of atomic interactions.
1 Q Historically, has there seen a conflict between
2 biology and physics as it relates to the three laws of
4 A Yes, there has.
5 Q When did that conflict appear?
6 A The conflict appeared at the time of the appearance
7 of Darwin's Origin of Species.
8 Q Why did that conflict between biology and physics
10 A Because at the time of the first formulation —
11 That followed very shortly the formulation of the second
12 law of thermodynamics, and people at that time thought
13 there was a conflict between the disordering influences
14 mandated by the laws of physics and the ordering
15 influences mandated by the laws of evolution.
16 Q And in your article you say that this apparent
17 conflict, quote, still rages today among some who have
18 failed to grasp the real nature of the problem." Now, I
19 wonder if you could tell me who those people are?
20 A Well, I should point out that it also states in
21 there that the problem was essentially solved in 1886 by
22 Bolzmann, B-o-l-z-m-a-n-n. And it has been a subtle
23 problem, and a number of people have simply not understood
24 the solution and therefore there has been some residual
1 A (Continuing)
2 I would say by 1981 that has been almost entirely
3 cleared up, and I know of no one other than the creation
4 scientists who have any qualms about there being any
5 conflict between life and the laws of thermodynamics.
6 Q Do you know of a fellow named Sir Fred Hoyle, or
7 know of Sir Fred Hoyle?
8 A I have heard of Fred Hoyle, yes.
9 Q What is his particular area of expertise?
10 A Professor Hoyle is an astrophysicist.
11 Q Does the field of astrophysics include a
12 familiarity with thermodynamics?
13 A It might. I mean, there are a number of fields
14 within astrophysics. Some of them would certainly require
15 thermodynamics. All of them would not.
16 Q Are you aware that Sir Hoyle has come up with some
17 probabilities which would indicate that the origination of
18 life itself on the planet earth is impossible?
19 A I have not read that work by Hoyle.
20 Q Are you aware that those are basically
22 A I have not heard — I have not read that work
24 Have you heard that? I'm not asking if you've read
25 the books. Have you heard, do you understand that within
1 Q (Continuing) the scientific community?
2 A No. I had not heard that before my deposition.
3 Q Is Jack Monod a molecular biologist?
4 A He was a molecular biologist?
5 Q Is he deceased?
6 A He's now deceased.
7 Q Did he write a book called Chance and Necessity in
9 A Yes.
10 Q And you've spent a great deal of time putting his
11 thesis about the origin of life to rest, have you not?
12 A I have certainly disagreed with his views about the
13 origin of life.
14 Q When was your first contact with a Doctor Robert E.
16 A I don't remember the date. I had some brief
17 correspondence with him, probably be on the order of ten
18 years ago.
19 Q And what was your interest in communicating with
20 Doctor Kofahl?
21 A I had, shortly before that, heard of the work of
22 the Creation Research Institute. And since I do some
23 writing in these problems of the origin of life, I wanted
24 to find out what their views were.
25 Q For what purpose?
1 A Information.
2 Q You provided last night two letters, one dated
3 August 10, 1976, to Doctor Kofahl, and a letter asking for
4 his writings which would constitute a contemporary
5 statement of fundamentalism, and a letter of September 2,
6 1976, thanking him for his letter.
7 Do you have his letter of August 24, 1976?
8 A No. I went through my files in gathering any
9 material for the deposition, and those were the only two
10 letters from that correspondence that I found.
11 Q Do you consider the creation explanation or a
12 source of life being creation rather than chemical
13 evolution a threat to your position in the scientific
15 A No. Because the idea is totally outside the
16 scientific community.
17 Q And how do you define the scientific community?
18 A Well, I think you're asking for a sociological
19 definition since you are asking if it affected my position
20 in the community. If you want a sociological definition,
21 that should be posed to those persons making a living in
22 the field.
23 Q I asked you about your definition of science last
24 night, didn't I?
25 A We discussed it briefly.
1 Q Do you recall what your definition of science was
2 last night?
3 A Well, if you have it, it would be helpful. I don't
4 remember the exact words that I used.
5 Q It's on page 56, if you would.
6 On the bottom of page 56, line 24, I asked you the
7 question, "Should the public schools' science teachers
8 teach what is accepted in the scientific community?"
9 What is your answer on line 1 and line 2 of page 57?
10 A That defines what science is. "Science is a social
12 Q Science is what is accepted in the scientific
14 A That is correct.
15 Q Which when you reduce it down to its simplest terms
16 means that if the people like you or in the scientific
17 community don't believe in it, then it's not science?
18 A Of course, the community has rules by which it
19 operates. This is not a random acceptance or rejection by
20 the community. The community has rules dealing with
21 natural law, testability, explanatory power, and a number
22 of other rules like that which relates to what is accepted
23 and what is not accepted in the scientific community.
24 There was some implication the way you asked that
25 question that this was a capricious sort of choice on the
1 A (Continuing) part of a community of scholars.
2 it is not a capricious choice. It's a community of
3 scholars who are very dedicated to a discipline by which
4 information is evaluated.
5 Q Isn't that your viewpoint as somebody being on the
6 inside looking out?
7 A I don't really know how to answer that question.
8 Q Well, it sort of sounds to me like somebody might
9 be a member of a country club looking at all the people
10 who are not a member of the club. They make their own
11 rules and they decide who will be admitted.
12 A Again, you're making the assumption that the rules
13 are capricious. The rules are not capricious, because
14 nature is a hard taskmaster.
15 Q Who makes the rules?
16 A The rules are ultimately, come from natural law.
17 The understanding of those rules is the task of a group of
18 people who are trying to understand that natural law,
19 trying to study that natural law.
20 Q Are you trying to say that this is some kind of
21 interpretation of the data that people perceive of what
22 they see around them?
23 A Science deals with observations. You go from
24 observation to constructs, which would be what you would
25 call hypothesis, theories, and then you go back through
1 A (Continuing) the loop of verification, and back to
2 the observables again. And this is the general procedure
3 by which science operates.
4 Q Can you tell me the name of one Ivy League
5 university that has a creation science scientist on that
7 A No, I cannot.
8 Q Can you tell me one graduate school that you would
9 consider reputable in the United States that has a
10 creation scientist on the staff?
11 A No, I cannot.
12 Q Can you give me the names of a single journal that
13 you would consider reputable that has a creation-scientist
14 who reviews articles submitted for publication?
15 A No, I cannot. On the other hand, I cannot give you
16 the name of a single Ivy League school or major university
17 or major journal in which the flat earth theory was
18 published or reviewed.
19 Q What about the theory of phlogiston?
20 A I cannot give you the name of a single such
21 institution or journal which would consider it.
22 Q What is there about the concept of flat earth which
23 requires that it not be taught?
24 A It's wrong.
25 Q Would you say that everybody in the scientific
1 Q (Continuing) community that you know of agrees
2 that it's wrong, the people that you know and respect?
3 A Two hundred years ago this was not true, or four
4 hundred years ago this was not true.
5 Q Let me restate my question.
6 A It is universally accepted — I will answer your
7 question. It is universally accepted that the flat earth
8 theory is wrong.
9 Q Is it your conclusion as to what has been referred
10 to in this trial as creation science is also wrong?
11 A It is not science.
12 Q No. My question is, is it not also your conclusion
13 that it is wrong in the same sense that the flat earth
14 theory is wrong?
15 A Aspects of it which are lumped into that section
16 4(a) 1 through 6 of the law are certainly wrong.
17 Q And the people you know and respect in the
18 scientific community also think that creation science is
20 A That those aspects of it are wrong, yes.
21 Q So where is the democratic process that you refer
22 to in the scientific community for creation science views?
23 A Well-
24 Q For creation science views?
25 A Anyone's ideas are open-
1 Q Please try to answer my question.
2 A I am.
3 Q Where is the democratic process in the scientific
4 community that will allow creation science views to be
6 A Well, you just gave an example — When I wrote to
7 Doctor Kofahl and asked him for a copy of his papers.
8 Q Didn't you get Doctor Kofahl's papers so that you
9 could tear them apart?
10 A I got them so I could evaluate them.
11 Q To show that they were wrong?
12 A That was not the conclusion prior to evaluating
13 them. I wouldn't have needed to have gotten them if I had
14 made the conclusion before evaluating them.
15 Q Do you know a Doctor John W. Patterson?
16 A I don't know him. I have corresponded with him.
17 Q He sent you a draft, a proposed draft, of an
18 article to be submitted to the Creation Research Society.
19 Do you know why he sent it to you?
20 A I believe he had covered some thermodynamics in the
21 article, and he asked me for my opinion on them.
22 Q He says in the second paragraph, "I am alerting you
23 to this because I know you have either been directly
24 involved with the creationists in the past or, at least, I
25 have a reason to believe you have a direct interest in