Cup of sugary tea for clamboy! 
At the risk of fueling RFJE's persecution complex...
| Quote (RFJE @ Feb. 10 2009,14:51) | This is from you Louis
"Dear All,
Since a major part of all our online (and possibly even offline) existences is spent engaging in debate with various types of people. I was curious about a few things.
1) What actually motivates us to do this?"
Louis, I don't if you're an atheist, but you know many evolutionists are. Forgive me if I'm wrong, and I ask these questions under no false pretense.
Assuming that you and I are just results of biochemistry, then what chemical process took place in you to motivate you toward science? I am completely sincere, this is an honest question? |
| Quote | | this is an honest question? |
No.
No I don't think so.
No this and what follows is a way of moving onto a topic where you probably won't have your arse handed to you so easily... whilst still trying to plead the same point.
No longer able to claim your god lurks behind the "mystery" of the peptide bond... it's time to move on to a myriad of far more nebulous points.
Smart move too!
These are (mostly) bigger questions and far harder to resolve. You'll be able to lodge your "Heere be Dragones" sign in some of these for decades.
That must feel far more reassuring?
I must say I'm slightly disappointed to find that you didn't ask whether "we've really looked at our hands? I mean really looked at them?"
| Quote | | What is it in us that gives us a desire to know what we don't know? It must be important, because we fight so hard to guard our perceptions of reality. |
Something that works gets selected for. A species that develops a talent in learning how to manipulate its environment is going to have an edge. Chimps, bonobos and orangs show an impressive set of problem solving skills. Our lineage took it further. A lot further.
| Quote | | It must be important, because we fight so hard to guard our perceptions of reality. |
I hate to point this out but our species has a terrible history of curbing it's curiosity in front of authority. Particularly military, religious or a heady mix of both.
| Quote | | But if it is just a biological process that eventually gives in to entropy then why is it so important to us? |
We are all going to die so why bother living? This is a nonsense question. We all find our reasons to do things. Otherwise we wouldn't do them. At best this is a philosophical question not a scientific one.
| Quote | | Are there chemical processes that cause love, hope, trust? |
Yes.
| Quote | | There should be somewhere in us. |
In the brain, that would be my guess.
| Quote | | It should be able to be diagrammed. |
Yes. Possibly. Probably.
How accurate those diagrams are will vary.
| Quote | | Where did sacrificial motives come from? Survival to the fittest. Chemical processes in the mind? Should we not have found them by now. |
Do have a read about social insects you'll find it most enlightening. Ants and bees are well into sacrifice to save their siblings.
The fact that you think such behaviour might be down to a a few simple chemical process doesn't speak well for you to be honest. That you might think that that is the expectation of evolutionary science.... well.... speaks volumes.
| Quote | | What about ethical judgement--the innate sense of right and wrong? |
Some people think that G W Bush was right to invade Iraq. Others don't.
Some people think it's right to deny gay people the rights enjoyed by straight people. Others don't.
What's your point?
| Quote | Will, determination are these just products of digested, fats, carbs and proteins and the energy they produce.
What about a sense of fun, enjoyment, satisfaction vs. dullness, and boredom? Chemical processes? |
For someone who supposedly teaches science you seem to show a total lack of love for it. If life and all it entails is ultimately explained in terms of chemistry, physics and biology does that rob it of it's wonder?
Really?
Over twenty years ago I had to learn (no great hardship; I relished the experience - like a condiment junky relishes a burger) the detailed biochemistry of photosynthesis (as known then) and I still think it's as cool as fuck. Nothing I've learnt about science has ever detracted from the fact that this is an amazing place to be.
Honestly does understanding how the world works only bring you ambivalence or contempt? Is there only value in seeing it as a magic trick? If so you have my pity.
| Quote | | Why do we cook and not eat our food raw like animals do? Is it not to enjoy the taste? What chemical process triggers this desire? |
Honestly you are asking this?
Seriously?
Two advantages to cooking....
1) Pre-breakdown of proteins and carbohydrates making digestions easier
2) Killing off parasites and pathogens.
Any group of individuals adopting this have an advantage. Good ideas/practices spread.
You don't know this?
Honestly???
| Quote | | Where did sexual attraction come from and how did it come at the same time as the sexual organs evolved? What gene is affection associated with, or by what chemical process is it triggered? And why is it associated with sex? |
(sigh)
| Quote | | Where did sexual attraction come from and how did it come at the same time as the sexual organs evolved? |
Oh please cite your evidence for this claim.
Pretty please!!!!!!
A very brief summary of the science of sex
The Joy of Sexual Reproduction (for adults only apparently- flagged by creationist (sigh) - very good)
Evolution of Sex
The Origin of Sexual Reproduction
| Quote | | Will, conscience, emotions, desire, ambitions, motivations, intentions bad and good, are all undeniably a part of our being. They are as real as the screen in front of you. They can be defined by neither mathematics, nor diagrammed by chemistry. They can not be included in cell biology for observation. |
You know you are dead right. As far as I know they've never isolated the "bad intentions" cell.
Take that science!!!
| Quote | | Where does music come from? Is this also a product of chemistry in the mind? I am a musician and it seems to come from elsewhere. |
I've never heard you play so I can't comment.
Perhaps it does come from somewhere else....
| Quote | | What other species has serial killers? Why are there people who kill for fun or fascination. Are these mutations or evil? Is evil just an idea of antiquity or is it evil--ask anyone who is on the receiving end of an evil and they will tell you. |
Have you ever owned a cat?
Dolphins pods living around east coast of Scotland kill porpoises for no apparent reason. Chimps are known to kill members of other tribes if they catch them alone.
You don't need to believe in god to recognise evil. Atheists don't have any trouble deciding if something is evil. Whether we can realistically attribute this human concept on the natural world is debatable and frankly doesn't get you very far apart from tutting at cats, dolphins, etc.
Again this is a philosophical question not a scientific one.
| Quote | | If someone told you that affection or hate were not real because they are not perceived by the 5 senses, would tell them they were crazy? because they are perceived IN you. What is the perceiving unit? Even it is unseen and can not be defined by natural means. |
This is of course bullshit.
Which sense is schizophrenia experienced through?
Your argument here, that a rational approach is far too simplistic, is a strawman.
| Quote | What chemical process gives us the perceived sensation of knowing ourselves inwardly, but at the same time gives us the desire to project a certain image on the outside? How can we discern a fake, even when we have no proof? Isn't it because most of us are guilty of hypocrisy at one time or the other?
If all of this is just the brain, then we should have been able to detect the chemical and biological activity associated with it, if we are nothing more than chemicals. |
As I said at the beginning of this (as far as I know) scientific knowledge of how the mind works is still in it's infancy so you are safe to hide your god in here if you like.
It may take quite some time to resolve an issue of this subtlety and complexity.
But this is, of course, an argument from ignorance.
Some of us would prefer to wait for the evidence to come in before believing in ripping yarns.
| Quote | | But what if we have a soul Mr. Louis? A spirit that perceives all these things that we undeniably sense inside. And what if the Bible is true that our soul is eternal and we will give account? Is our sense of fair and unfair a shadow of God's judgement? Do we have his spiritual DNA? |
I don't suppose we could prevail upon you to actually provide some evidence that the soul exists could we?
You know you'd be ever so famous if you could.
Lecture circuits. TV interviews. Oprah.
You'd be rich. Rich beyond your wildest dream.
Rich beyond k.e.'s wildest dreams.
... and those are really wild.
Apparently.
Bloody hell this is the longest post I've ever made.
This wine is really good!
ETA - Took me too bloody long to write though!!!  |
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