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Date: 2006/03/14 15:30:14, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Avo, I'm qouting you:"No, it doesn't seem preposterous at all. What seems preposterous is that a creature could have 7% of a wing,"

What about 6 percent of a simian tail?  Some humans do develop these at birth, and all of us carry the bones for a vestigial tail.

Date: 2006/03/16 05:01:42, Link
Author: Seven Popes
If we're talking about Mcnuggets, there's a heap o' difference, Henry J.  Otherwise, none.
   By the way, there was an interesting newsie tidbit on 20/20 (or one of the shows like it) on the possible causes of homosexuality.  As I recall, they mentioned hormonal influences, and possibly the effect of antibodies the mother develops to male children.  It seem that the chances of having a gay son increases based on the number of older brothers he  has.  I wonder (out loud, with no intent to derail this well meaning but clearly hopeless thread) how the creationists and IDist respond to these findings.

Date: 2006/03/16 06:37:34, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Well Sactum, do you like gladiator movies? ;)
Oddly enough, The number of older brothers means nothing if the lad is left handed.  Odd.
http://www.bri.ucla.edu/bri_weekly/news_050812_3.asp

A quote from the above site: "So, a male with three older brothers is three times more likely to be gay than one with no older brothers, though there's still a better than 90 percent chance he will be straight. They argue that this results from a complex interaction involving hormones, antigens, and the mother's immune system."

Date: 2006/03/16 09:27:19, Link
Author: Seven Popes
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/delldude1.html
Since when does a job with Dell confer knighthood?  

Date: 2006/03/16 11:53:44, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Shi:
Quote
The mentality of your so-called scientists is incorrect.  I am not here to convince anyone I know more about their subject than they do.  You seem to think that if someone does not know as much as a specialist about the specialist's subject, that someone is not in a position to say anything about the subject.

My little brother liked to hover behind me while I fixed his motorcycle.  He constantly pestered me, asking me if I had tourqed everything down tightly enough, if I was sure I had adjusted everything correctly, if i had sealed up everything carefully.  It's not that I had made any mistakes, He was just worried.  I got tired of all the unwarranted second guessing, so one day when his bike needed a repair, I told him "since you're the expert, you fix it".
  Shi, since you're the expert, you prove it.

P.S.
Quote
The mentality of your so-called scientists is incorrect
So called?  why do you say this?

Date: 2006/03/16 14:00:13, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy, to quote:
Quote
How did the belief (faith) in an IDer come into existence starting with the very first human that looked above and said something greater and more powerful must have had a hand in all of this?  How did this belief (faith) arise outside of the process of interpreting the empirical evidence?

In Kitzmiller et al. v. Dover Area School District , the judge ruled that ID was not science, it was religion.  Your quote makes the same point.  ID may be philosopy, but it isn't science. The ID people tried their darndest, but they ran headlong into the Establishment clause, and specifically the Lemon Test. The Lemon Test states that all laws in the United States must have a clear secular purpose (Lemon v. Kurtzman).  That's all. </Troll Feeding>

Date: 2006/03/16 15:35:02, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy, to quote
Quote

I don't believe you to be a serious participator in this thread.  The point is simple.  Judges are defining science.  This begs the question.

Why can't preachers define science?
Why can't teachers define science?
Why can't politicians define science?

 A conservative Judge listened to Scientists defined science.  Then he listened to ID proponents.  The ID proponents were forced to admit that they had nothing but faith (no science experiments) to back up ID.  The judge applied the Lemon standard, and ruled accordingly.  No appeals to Ex Machina will change this.

Date: 2006/03/16 16:43:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
The Judge didn't have to understand Evolution.  He just had to decide whether I.D. was science.  And it was shown that it wasn't.  I have made this point before.  ID failed the Lemon test.

Date: 2006/03/16 16:50:59, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote
Read through this forum a little and you will see a pattern emerge.  No one outside evolutionary science seems to understand it even with all the "expert" testimony.  Did this "conservative" judge get the crash course of ToE and properly decide this case?  How was he able to understand what so many outside science are still vigorously debating and trying to comprehend?

Thordaddy, does this mean you think we shouldn't teach evolution in schools because some people don't understand it?

Date: 2006/03/20 04:01:58, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Avo stated:  
Quote
I don't know why in #$%@ you think the quesiton of the origin of homosexuality has anything to do with what we're discussing here or with my opinions.


Avo, why did you use profanity? You know that it's in poor taste, and against the rules (you clever boots! using ones instead of the letter L!;)
Quote
I have known at least 3 families in which there were gay guys that were large, with many brothers.

That's true, I suppose.  I have also met large homosexuals. Your point is?
Quote

Which seven popes are you promoting?

The ones mentioned in Dantes Inferno
Quote
Neither chimps nor gorillas have tails, so I suppose it must be a real throwback, some 20 million years!


Remember, common  ancestor.

Date: 2006/03/20 04:28:51, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Tacitus:
Quote
There is one possible scenario I would be happy to see where we never get to a post-ID world.  That would be the one where an advanced alien race landed on Earth saying "Mea culpa, we accidentally contaminated your planet with some biological goop which escaped from our lab. Sorry about that."

Can we call this the "Alien Meth Lab" hypothosis?
Earth as an inter-galactic trailer park.  Thanks, this explains a lot, suddenly Britney Spears, trucker hats, yelling "Play Freebird" and not doing your own reading  fall into some kind of context.

Date: 2006/03/20 05:59:00, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Too much irony.  You derailed Thordaddies thread.

Date: 2006/03/20 14:36:04, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Beer Volcano:
Quote

Hmm, so Bush balked while Clinton was president. I see.
Are you sure he didn't have to violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics to do that?

How did Dave know about the intelligence that Clintons CIA remote viewers developed?  Did his sensitive work with Dell place him in a National Security need to know situation? Oh, the burdens this man has faced.

Date: 2006/03/21 04:05:48, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy,
This is a debating forum.  Words here are everything, so don't be upset if we point out that you are using words you don't understand.  Having said that, I think you are using words you don't understand, and I want to know why.  Are you trying to impress us with your vocabulary?  Please stop it.

Date: 2006/03/21 04:37:28, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Now I'll just get an irate message asking if I think that only the "smart" people can use the "Big Words".
Reminds me of word salad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad
"Look Ma! I'm an elitest"

Date: 2006/03/21 06:54:37, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Yeah, what about the tasty wordsmithing in posts 20 & 21?
Quote
#20

In response to comment #7,
you mentioned that, in an article written while Clinton was President,Bush objected to “moving the goalposts”. How is that possible? The set-asides were discussed under GW Bush.

No, I didn’t say that. You inferred it. I suggest you read the SciAm article I linked, reread what I originally said, then try commenting again with the chip removed from your shoulder. -ds

Comment by doramia — March 21, 2006 @ 9:26 am
#21

Here is the Scientific American article I referenced earlier.

http://www.sciamdigital.com/gsp_qpd....0C719A7

It is from the February 2001 issue which I would have received in the mail probably in December of 2000. Clinton was still president but Bush was president-elect.

When I said “this was written up in Scientific American while Clinton was still president” I of course didn’t mean that Bush’s subsequent veto was part of the article. The article is about the reneging on forestation credits.

Comment by DaveScot — March 21, 2006 @ 10:11 am

Italics mine.  Kinda looks like an admission.

Date: 2006/03/21 13:17:36, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy:
Quote
Don't be scared to defend your position

Uh, okee dokee ???, What does the word 'Portend' mean? No peeking in a dictionary either.

Date: 2006/03/21 13:42:07, Link
Author: Seven Popes
SteveStory,
I apologize for uh, rehijacking your thread.  I prepose we start a "Thordaddies Gems" thread.  With stuff like
Quote
You sound like you're fighting for a cause that rivals any religious fanatic.  
well, where do I start? ??? A cause that rivals any religious fanatic?  Is this an example of ESL? I think he meant to say "You sound like you're fighting for a cause that with the zeal of a religious fanatic."  But who knows?

Date: 2006/03/21 14:07:56, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Ha!
SteveStory derails his OWN thread!

Date: 2006/03/27 15:15:35, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote

I mean, GOD####, that is magnificently retarded. I mean, that post is standing at the pinnacle of a mountain, it's cape flapping in a breeze, sunset casting a golden glow across it's chiseled features, gloriously retarded. It is the ne plus ultra of tard. It is to other retarded posts as Michael Jordan was to Craig Ehlo, on a distinct plane above even the world's best.


I know  SteveStory posted this days ago (the 25th I believe), but dang!  I laughed untill i got a nosebleed. Literally.  
Quote
It is the ne plus ultra of tard.

I think I just pooped a little.  If you could somehow work in the word "Tard-gasm", it might trigger a seizure. :p

Date: 2006/03/28 10:16:04, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Avert website:
Quote
By December 2005 women accounted for 46% of all adults living with HIV worldwide, and for 57% in sub-Saharan Africa.

Thordaddy:
Quote
dominance of homosexuals as the carriers for the AIDS disease

Thordaddy, did you remember that "factoid" wrong or did you make that up?
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
Dude, learn to Google.  It took me 15 seconds flat to figure out you are lying.
Heck, just LEARN.

Date: 2006/03/28 13:40:22, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy, no Seven Popes opines?  I did 15 seconds of surfing for nothing?  If it's a reading comprehension issue, I'll type real slow....

Date: 2006/03/30 11:48:26, Link
Author: Seven Popes
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,189691,00.html
Perhaps this is one of the statistics that young Thordaddy thinks we should teach?
Quote
NEW YORK — In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

I mean, as long as we're teaching statistics, Why limit ourselves to ones that stroke the homophobic mouth-breathing, smooth brained, inbred, hillbilly ego?
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-IQgapgenetic.htm
Quote
Adjustments for socioeconomic conditions almost completely eliminate differences in IQ scores between black and white children, according to the study's co-investigators. They include Jeanne Brooks-Gunn and Pamela Klebanov of Columbia's Teachers College, and Greg Duncan of the Center for Urban Affairs and Policy Research at Northwestern University.

As in many other studies, the black children in the study had IQ scores a full 15 points lower than their white counterparts. Poverty alone, the researchers found, accounted for 52 percent of that difference, cutting it to 7 points. Controlling for the children's home environment reduced the difference by another 28 percent, to a statistically insignificant 3 points -- in essence, eliminating the gap altogether.

Date: 2006/04/03 02:48:55, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote
You ignored the part where I said I once had a list. That was some months ago. The list might not be as big as you'd like. I recall about 5 names.

A list of 57 names:
My list

Date: 2006/04/03 04:28:03, Link
Author: Seven Popes
PuckSR
Quote
Transistors are an excellent analog...

Heeeee! Bad pun.

Date: 2006/04/03 06:11:12, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Ok, Thordaddy, I'll bite
Quote
Can you explain to me why teaching children about the normalcy of a high-risk and deadly activity is justifiable is not reprehensible?

I say it's not.  We must be very carefull how we teach kids about AIDS.  Once they see the statistics, they will come to the unavoidable conclusion that Lesbians are Gods chosen people.  He has spared them the horror of AIDS.
 We can't teach about the old Racial IQ studies, because white supremacists are embarrassed by data showing that groups of Asians consistantly outscore whites.

 I have to believe that you are a Asian lesbian, furthering a radical, intolorant agenda.

Date: 2006/04/03 08:04:22, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote
Originally Posted by USA Today
Mark Coppenger, a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, believes in praying for others, but he questions the wisdom of measuring God's response. "It's my experience that God actually prompts our prayers," Coppenger says. "But I don't see him cooperating in a test."

So by simply using Scientific method, you can cancel the effect of prayer by making god accountable? All I have to do is tell god "I'm gonna keep an eye on you" and the prayers of thousands are invalidated? I CAN BULLY GOD!

Date: 2006/04/03 13:35:30, Link
Author: Seven Popes
superficial bilateral symetry. Your hearts a bit to the left, your  intestines are swirled about, you ony have one appendix...  You look kinda symetrical untill we open you up.

Date: 2006/04/04 02:38:53, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote
The problem with science being intertwined with the bureaucracy of the US public school system or the judicial system is that science always loses out if it doesn't fit the right ideological protocol.  This is why we see no debates between science and the US public school system.

There recently was a debate between the public school system and science.  It was a debate about Intelligent Design.  The Intelligent Design proponents put their best case forward.  They did the very best they could,  with some witnesses openly perjuring themselves in a desperate effort to win at any cost (Oxycontin, anyone?).  The I.D. movement got its ass handed to them.  They lost so conclusively, so totaly, that I.D. will not see another court case for a while.  Idealogically, ID has many adherents.  They are usually not terribly clever, and they can't defend their stance in a debate without running away from most arguments, but they cling to it like a fat kid to cake.  Sad really.

Date: 2006/04/04 03:50:49, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy:
Quote
When we don't like the science (such as IQ differences) we look for other science to usurp it.  When we can't find the science (as in the gay "gene") we still make the appropriate assumptions (gayness is inborn).  The problem with science being intertwined with the bureaucracy of the US public school system or the judicial system is that science always loses out if it doesn't fit the right ideological protocol.  This is why we see no debates between science and the US public school system.

Certainly there is much controversial science to be had and yet we hear only crickets in the hallways.  Why is that?

Thordaddy, we refuted (with PEER-REVIEWED) studies the I.Q. difference by race nonesense you keep repeating.  Get a teacher or an adult to help you read it.  As far as a "gayness gene", it is being persued because there is a powerful statistical correlation between homosexuality and birth order. http://www.bri.ucla.edu/bri_weekly/news_050812_3.asp
What you are looking for is science that supports you world-view.  Since your world view is contrarian, I suggest you visit sites dedicated
to that wordview.
That will save you from the cognitive dissonance issuses that plauge you.  Your pseudoscience will be welcomed there.
(edit: I apologize for the Timecube link.  I was weak)

Date: 2006/04/04 04:38:22, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Your point?
Quote
Popes, I have no appendix, but I do have 3 faces.
The middle one is zero.

Quote
I have more freckles on my right arm than my left.

Sad

Date: 2006/04/04 04:42:33, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Time cube quality crankdom. Mixed with Seuss.
As Guthrie pointed out, if you have a reason for posting on this evolution debating forum, then lets see it.  Or piss off.

Date: 2006/04/04 04:57:03, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Arden:High V.O.C. glue.  Stored in unsealed containers.  In a poorly ventilated shop.  It was inevitable.

Date: 2006/04/04 05:29:46, Link
Author: Seven Popes
So your faces are blanced, but your arm freckles are not?  What does this have to do with debating the theory of evolution? Got a point about evolution?

Date: 2006/04/04 06:16:57, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote
Way ahead of you, Dave. I've already changed my nickname from "Church-Burnin' Faid" to "Faid, Destroyer of Worlds". Much more of a hit with the ladies.

I'll leave the "nuclear cleansing" idea to you, however. It's true, the other two connections were also your doing; but this was your puppy from the beginning, and I wouldn't want to get mixed up in a copyright dispute with you. You seem like a really intimidating guy.

Seven Popes =Consumer of Galaxies.  
Just putting it out there.  Ya know... for tha ladies...

Date: 2006/04/04 06:45:21, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thank god I was able to disable the "Auto-Mock" feature of my browser before my laptop burst into flames.

Date: 2006/04/04 14:17:58, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy, we miss you over at the post id world.  If you meet us there, I'll promise to use small words!

Date: 2006/04/04 15:27:20, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote

I said a debate between the public school system and science and not science and the public school system versus ID.  This debate see science and the school syatem hand and hand like ALL other debates.  Science is obviously being corrupted by ideologues.

Quote
Jones was particularly grieved that board members denied using the term "creationism" before switching the term to "Intelligent Design," and that some board members claimed not to know how copies of the book Of Pandas and People were donated to the school when Buckingham personally raised funds for the books at his church.

Which corruption are you talking about?  The corruption practiced by the school board members? I think that Kitzmiller v dover was a debate between science and the corrupt religious fanatics that infiltrated the school system.  Science won.

Date: 2006/04/04 15:45:27, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (thordaddy @ April 04 2006,20:20)
Seven Pope,
And wouldn't a "gay gene" be an example of a bad mutation?
Please do tell me how one can define the sexual orientation of an undefinable entity (what I call a human being).   There is certainly no rationale for a gay mutation to be naturally selected in order to survive.  In fact, a "gay gene" seems to be a contradiction of all that we are told about evolution.

But again, you've have readily proved my point.  The "gay gene" needs to be found so the ideologues can win the argument and genetic IQ differences must be refuted in the same manner.  Science is a secondary consideration.  Your science merely fits your ideology.

Thordaddy
Quote

Please do tell me how one can define the sexual orientation of an undefinable entity (what I call a human being).  
Uhh, I dig chicks?
Quote
And wouldn't a "gay gene" be an example of a bad mutation?

Yeah, if you are arguing for intelligent design.  Evolution states that this happens.  By the way, It's not a "gay gene", it appears to be a series of hormonal interactions.  Evolution claims that there is pressure toward more functional designs, but never claims that what you see is optimal.
Quote
 Science is a secondary consideration.  Your science merely fits your ideology.

Sorry, like the recent prayer study, science don't much care.
And I really want your Aids info taught in schools.  It proves that the lord or the designer loves lesbians most.  He spared them from Aids.

PS, my favorite line from the Kitzmiller decision:
Quote
"It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy."

Judge Jones

Date: 2006/04/04 17:04:47, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Your reading comprehension skills are poor.  Or you didn't read the last couple of posts.
Quote
The thing that amazes me is that the Dover school board only sought to have a single statement read before the 9th grade biology class that said there were alternative theories to evolution.

Which put them at odds with science. Because ID fails the Lemon test.  And it's not science.  You know this, It's been explained to you several times.  Simply tell us which bits you can't follow, and we will explain those.  Or are you a troll?

Date: 2006/04/04 17:23:18, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (thordaddy @ April 04 2006,21:51)
cogzoid,

So natural selection is really a meaningless term?  And a genetic basis for "gayness" does nothing to inhibit one from being heterosexual?  

So homosexuality may have a genetic component but it plays no part in sexual orientation?

What would a "gay gene" entail?

This is the best example of drawing a conclusion and then finding the right evidence.

Thordaddy, you are priceless.
Quote
So natural selection is really a meaningless term?  
Who said that? under those bloody great wads of straw there is a simple fact that you have allready been told.  Natural selection is pressure.  It's not absolute.  Simply put, Half-wits still exist.  There is pressure being put against Half wits, but clearly they exist.
Quote
And a genetic basis for "gayness" does nothing to inhibit one from being heterosexual?  

Uh according to the Ex gay ministries... (heh)
Quote

This is the best example of drawing a conclusion and then finding the right evidence.

Sorry, It fits in neatly with natural selection.  It's a poke in the eye for religion and it's half-wit pseudoscience child ID.
Just because you dont like it doesn't mean it's not true.

Date: 2006/04/06 03:55:03, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (thordaddy @ April 05 2006,01:55)
Seven Popes opines,

Quote
Which put them at odds with science. Because ID fails the Lemon test.  And it's not science.  You know this, It's been explained to you several times.  Simply tell us which bits you can't follow, and we will explain those.  Or are you a troll?


If you can equate this statement

DOVER statement

with promoting a particular religion then it becomes ever more obvious that the ideologues are corrupting science.

There is no teaching involved let alone a promotion of a particular religion.

You want to claim that ID is being used by "creationists" to corrupt science while right under your nose science is being used by political ideologues in the public school system to advance their agenda and thereby corrupt science in the process.

I "want to claim that ID is being used by "creationists" to corrupt science"?  No, It's a statement of fact.

From the link you provided:
Quote
The Dover School District's treatment of Intelligent Design "Theory" depends upon two things; a written statement that is read to all students during class, and the availability of the ID textbook "Of Pandas and People".

also, from ncseweb.org:
Quote
Q. Why is the book Of Pandas and People at issue in this case?

A. The Dover school board sought to have the “intelligent design” supplemental textbook, Of Pandas and People (OPAP), used directly in the science curriculum. They encountered opposition, and it seemed that nearly sixty copies of OPAP would simply be made available in the high school library. Then, the school board adopted a policy to instruct students in ninth grade science class concerning “intelligent design” and point them to the copies of OPAP in the library for further information.

It wasn't just the statement, either you know that and are a troll, or you have no IDea what you are babbeling about... and are a troll. Which is it? To quote Judge Jones decision, (specifically the portion where he noted that the defendants perjured themselves) your posts are full of
Quote
"flagrant and insulting falsehoods."

Quoting Pandas:

do you remember this Gem?

Date: 2006/04/06 06:47:52, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Or prove that the designer put into place a series of events leading directly to Queer Eye for the Straight Guy?
I opened a new topic to avoid derailing the thoughtful and endlessly entertaing discorse here.

Date: 2006/04/06 11:54:05, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Hey Thordaddy!
Will a gay gene refute ID?

Date: 2006/04/06 13:04:47, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Silly Thordaddy, as usual, you have a point, but it's on top of your pointy white hat.  That covers your face. Down to your bedsheet.
Quote

Is there or is there not a disproportionate amount of AIDS, STDs and domestic violence amongst American homosexuals? (homosexuals represent 2% of population while representing around 60% of AIDS cases).

Not amongst Lesbians.  Their rates are MUCH lower than the hetros.
Quote
Does the prevalence AIDS, STDs and domestic violence in a certain demographic not signify a rise in mortality rates?

A rise? what are you talking about?  these rate have been essentialy steady for years!
Quote

Given these very simple facts, is it wise and prudent, let alone "educational," to teach children of the "normalcy" of homosexuality (normal as compared to what)?

No, clearly it's important to teach them to be good lesbians.  This is your point, right? After all, the Designer made them gay.  With the Big Gay Gene.
Quote
The "scientists" can keep beating up the fundies about this issue, but what do they say about the above and its lack of ANY religious argumentation?

Those words don't make a coherent sentence, try again.

Will a "gay gene" refute I.D.? Third try is a charm, Thordaddy!

Date: 2006/04/06 13:12:49, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I wonder who has more STD's and domestic violence, redneck men or Lesbians?  Should we teach the virtues of the Lesbian Lifestyle, and warn the flower of American womanhood about rednecks?

Date: 2006/04/06 14:04:46, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Silly Thordaddy,
Quote
IDers will still chalk it up to a choice of free-will.  You aren't against free-will, are you?

How could they have free will if the designer made them gay?

Fourth try Thordaddy, would a "gay gene" refute I.D.?

Date: 2006/04/06 14:23:35, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy:
Quote

I only asked if it was wise and prudent, let alone "educational," to teach about the "normalcy" of homosexuality.

Do you have an answer?

Do you think it's prudent to allow your young women to date men?  With the greater risks of Aids,and being beaten or killed by their spouse?  Wouldn't it be MORE prudent, using your illogic, to encourage them to be Lesbians?

Russell, I'm only aware of studies linking homosexuality to prenatal biology here at the Brain Research institute.
Like I mentioned elewhere in this forum, they found:
Quote
"a male with three older brothers is three times more likely to be gay than one with no older brothers, though there's still a better than 90 percent chance he will be straight. They argue that this results from a complex interaction involving hormones, antigens, and the mother's immune system."

Not a gay gene per se, but evidence of a biological root to homosexuality.

SteveStory, LOL.  By the way, I owe you a thread derail, so take your shot :D

Date: 2006/04/06 17:13:27, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Arden,
Quote

TD must not know any gay people. I think he's regurgitating nonsense his pastor told him.

He might know more gay people than he thinks he does!

Date: 2006/04/10 02:33:16, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy, don't try to derail my lovely thread!  I purposely started another because I didn't want to derail yours.
Would a "gay gene" refute I.D.?
Can you not answer that simple question?  Must you run away from the answer every time?  I just want to know Thordaddy, if a gene or set of genes is found to cause homosexuality, would this refute Intelligent Design?  
Fifth try Thordaddy, would a "gay gene" refute I.D.?

Date: 2006/04/10 13:24:02, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I just want to know Thordaddy, if a gene or set of genes is found to cause homosexuality, would this refute Intelligent Design?  
sixth try Thordaddy, would a "gay gene" refute I.D.?

Date: 2006/04/10 14:50:04, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Ghost of Paley, care to back up your assertions?

Date: 2006/04/10 15:18:41, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Fools! The more time you tie up GOP in this thread, the less time he as to devote to his masterstroke thread, Paley's Ghost can back up his assertions.  If not for you,  we would have an outline by now.

Date: 2006/04/10 15:48:37, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thanks for your concern, Sir toejam, but I can think of no better way of entertaining myself.  I live in a rural community in the deep south, and I enjoy pulling my pickup truck next to one belonging to the local rednecks.  They will then speed up, closing the gap between themselves and the car in front of them.  They simply can't stand being passed.
I will then fall back a bit, and when they have done the same, I will speed up a bit.  They close the gap.  They have no choice. I have gotten them to dance with me as many as seven times.  They cannot help themselves even when they know that they are being manipulated.
The same is true with Thordaddy.  I have shown my hand now, but it'll be very difficult for him to address the question i've posed.  He'd rather speed up.

Date: 2006/04/11 04:35:35, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Herr Toejam, I might change my handle to Uneasy Rider, thanks for reminding me of a classic.  I loved Jack Nicholson in the football helmet. :D
Midnight voice, I am consistantly surprised by the ages of people met sight unseen.  I have met youngsters in their twenties who are incredibly mature, and oldsters like myself who do silly things like this creating this thread. :(
Flint, this thread comes from a simular thread started by Thordaddy.  I did not wish to derail his rhetorical gem, entitled "Will A Gay Gene Refute Evolution".
Thordaddy believes that homosexuality is wrong, and uses tortured logic to support homophobic teaching.  He pointed out that since homosexual men have a greater incidence of HIV/AIDS, we need to teach our students about the dangers of homosexuality.  When I pointed out that lesbians have infection rates far below that of heterosexuals, and asked if we should teach our daughters about the virtues of a lesbian life, he fell silent.
I set up a paradoxical question, Since he postulated the existance of a gay gene in his thread, I would ask him if his designer (clearly to him, it's the Christian God) made homosexuals.  Now Thordaddies particular flavor of christianity doesn't think highly of homosexuals (I've seen the insides of their homes, they need gay men more than gays need them.  I.D. might also mean interior decorating). It seem unjust for his God to create them (with this "gay gene"), only to send them to Hades. The question was not really about refuting I.D., it was about exposing Thordaddies designer. I believe that Thordaddy is a creationist hiding behind I.D. in order to push his theology into public education.  In other posts, he denies that Intelligent Design's credibility was damaged by Kitzmiller v Dover.  
I (regrettably) baited him by pointing out that people who shared his ideology had committed perjury in that court case, in effect "lying for Jesus".  I used the Judge Jones quote:
Quote
"It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy."

Since then, Thordaddy will hardly repond to any of my posts, and when he does, it's by attempting to derail this thread or by pummeling his straw man, not mine.  He can't honestly answer the question.

Date: 2006/04/11 10:56:18, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I just want to know Thordaddy, IF a gene or set of genes is found to cause homosexuality, would this refute Intelligent Design?  
Seventh try Thordaddy, would a "gay gene" refute I.D?

Date: 2006/04/11 13:29:46, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy,
Quote
A "gay gene" would NOT refute ID BECAUSE such a gene would further strain the credibility of evolutionary theory.  A "gay gene" would bolster the credibility of ID.
explain.
1.A "gay gene" would NOT refute ID BECAUSE such a gene would further strain the credibility of evolutionary theory.

Evolution clearly predicts that there will be products of gene combinations which are not beneficial to the reproductive or survival abilities of a species.  This neatly explains stupid hillbillies.  They tend to die in tragic lawn mower racing accidents, or because they didn't know that driving off ether to produce Methamphetamines is best done with a vacum, not by boiling on an open gas flame.  Yet, near where I live they have established an enclave, and are thriving.  


2.A "gay gene" would bolster the credibility of ID.

Proof that the designer wanted there to be gay people? And that the designer genetically hard-coded the Gayness into them?  This is going to be great. :0

Date: 2006/04/11 14:19:50, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (thordaddy @ April 11 2006,18:43)
Seven Popes,

Since we assumed your "gay gene" for the purpose of answering your question, can we now explain what exactly is a "gay gene?"

You seem to suggest that such a "gay gene" would be equivalent to a  "hillbilly gene."  Can we say these represent bad mutations?  

When I say a "gay gene" will bolster ID, I say this with the understanding that the "gay gene" will be mocked by the masses as corrupt science and a "gay gene" has no real meaning further undermining evolutionary theory.


1.)Thordaddy,
Quote

Since we assumed your "gay gene" for the purpose of answering your question, can we now explain what exactly is a "gay gene?"

The one you mentioned in your post:
Quote
Posted: April 04 2006,20:41    
There is new talk of a "gay gene" being profferred by "scientists."

My question is this;

Would this not represent a refutation of evolution?  Or more modestly, would this not at the minimum represent a bad mutation naturally selected?  What in evolution would justify a selection of a "gay gene?"

I assumed you knew what you were talking about.
2.)Thordaddy:
Quote
You seem to suggest that such a "gay gene" would be equivalent to a  "hillbilly gene."  Can we say these represent bad mutations?

Thordaddy, is English your second language?  I wrote in my post:
Quote
Evolution clearly predicts that there will be products of gene combinations which are not beneficial to the reproductive or survival abilities of a species.

3.)Thordaddy:
Quote

When I say a "gay gene" will bolster ID, I say this with the understanding that the "gay gene" will be mocked by the masses as corrupt science and a "gay gene" has no real meaning further undermining evolutionary theory.

The masses don't have to understand.  The masses are free to mock.  If science is right, than it is right. My question is a simple one,
I just want to know Thordaddy, IF a gene or set of genes is found to cause homosexuality, would this refute Intelligent Design?  
nineth try Thordaddy, would a "gay gene" refute I.D?

Date: 2006/04/11 14:36:05, Link
Author: Seven Popes
No Sir toejam, I defer to your superior maths (and I went back and counted).  The queery count (  ;)  ) stands at eight.

Date: 2006/04/11 14:44:00, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy:
Quote
Since I granted your nonexistent "gay gene" for sake of argument,

Uhhhh, Thordaddy, it's your gene.  From the Gay gene evo thread.  I quoted you.  Read carefully. It helps if you sound out the letters.  Slowly.

Date: 2006/04/11 14:47:30, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I just want to know Thordaddy, IF a gene or set of genes is found to cause homosexuality, would this refute Intelligent Design?  
nineth try Thordaddy, would a "gay gene" refute I.D?

Date: 2006/04/11 15:02:07, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I just want to know Thordaddy, IF a gene or set of genes is found to cause homosexuality, would this refute Intelligent Design?  
tenth try Thordaddy, would a "gay gene" refute I.D?

Date: 2006/04/11 15:17:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote
Chris Hyland,

I try and answer your questions.  Will you be kind enough to answer mine?

Clearly, Thordaddy is a man with an undeveloped sense of irony.

Date: 2006/04/13 02:52:25, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I just want to know Thordaddy, IF a gene or set of genes is found to cause homosexuality, would this refute Intelligent Design?  
eleventh try Thordaddy, would a "gay gene" refute I.D?

Date: 2006/04/24 08:22:38, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I'm not giving up on you yet, Paley.  But I am ready to see the outline you have been working on.  If you aren't done, just post what you have manage to peck out so far...

Date: 2006/04/27 08:44:14, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote
one of your buddies on the main PT blog was lamenting that there were something like 3 conversions from Evolution to Creationism for every 1 the other direction ...

Love to see some documentation on this.  You are on a debating website.  Don't pull statistics out of your hat.
Quote

People are starting not only to see the falsity of blind secularism, but they are also beginning to see its bad fruits.  The 20th century in many ways was a grand experiment in secularism in science and in many other areas and it failed miserably.  Why do you think all these mega-churches are springing up everywhere?
Breathtaking.  The MegaChurch seen as proof of the fall of Eviloution and science.  What does NASCAR and pork rinds prove then?
Quote
These people have heard the Carl Sagans and the Richard Dawkins' and the Stephen Hawkings of the world spout their arrogant, empty atheist tripe
You are making the mistake of catogorizing confidence in well researched science you don't understand as arrogance.  Don't blame science for not talking slowly enough!  Blame your biology teachers for that.
Quote
We've already seen the principles of the "Evolution Religion" implemented in several countries and it was not pretty.
Yes, here in the USA.  And we have the vaccines to prove it.  Not like in theocracies. Read Flint's excellent post. (Quite right Flint!;)
Quote
Just think for a moment if people like Faid were rewriting our constitution or making laws ... he thinks the idea of humans sitting on the throne of life is misguided.  Think of the implications of that!

Yeah.  He might do something outrageous like taking a stand against torture.  BAD FAID, NO donut for YOU.
Quote
You all are right about one thing ... academia is almost a complete monolith, at least in the area of what you call Science
 Yes, despit the fact that the country is turning to God, the best educated and argueably the brightest minds still belive in their testable theory.  Says volumes, I think.  They stick by their guns and tell the hard truth to the ignorant.  This is not true of the creationists trying to sneak the bible into schools as ID.  I remember the perjury that went on in the Kitzmiller trial.  Lying for Jesus. Ignoring Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
Link to perjury by Allan Bonsell.
Quote

And it will be the BL Creationists who RE-invent both the universities and the disciplines studied within their walls if and when the current ones become unsalvageable.

Well perhaps.  And after that, we will have a renaissance.  Maybe the church will condem scientists again.  But in the end, religion will have to admit that the scientists were right.
Is there any chance that evolution could be explained to you in a manner that you might belive it? Because if not, you are wasting time as a troll.  A closed mind, howling at the intelectual elites.  In the meantime, you are still welcome to vaccines.

Date: 2006/04/27 09:35:38, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thor(Babies)daddy
Haaaaaaaaa!  Did the babies momma have to "go away" to an"aunts" house like women used to do in the good old days here in the south?   Are the  bastards being passed off as the mothers siblings?  Hooo! Thor(breaking up the nuclear family)daddy, did you give her herpes too?
This is why we need sex ed in school, dammit.

Date: 2006/05/01 13:50:23, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I'm not giving up on you yet, Paley.  But I am ready to see the outline you have been working on.  If you aren't done, just post what you have manage to peck out so far...
+1 week... Still waiting.  Care to admit defeat?

Date: 2006/05/02 11:26:01, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy:
Quote
There is centuries worth of evidence as to why OUR society elevated traditional marriage above all other unions.  The reasoning is quite solid and it's based on a clear understanding between both the different natures of man and woman plus the complementary effects they have as a union.

Yes, one of the major reasons was to preserve familial stability by preventing bastard children.  Problem is, liberals like Thordaddy are having dirty, dirty sex out of wedlock.  Who suffers? The fatherless kids.  Thordaddy, who is raising your kids?

Date: 2006/05/02 12:14:31, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Thordaddy
Quote

Yes, I am a product of your "liberal" society and you turn around and stab me in the back for being "liberal."  Shows you the true nature of a "liberal" and why I can no longer equate with such a mentality.

But if you are concerned, I had a lengthy co-habitation with the mother of my children and we continue to raise our kids together without the need for any court intervention.  My kids are hardly "fatherless," but we can see the result of the liberal notion of co-habitation.

Why do you think i'm a liberal?  I believe in marriage as a sacred bond between two people that lasts untill death. I think that a father marries a mother and is involved in the raising of a child (are your daughters even in the same county as you?)  I beleve what you are doing is very poor judgement.  I think that it's a shame that people who represent themselves as evangelicals or conservatve "Christians" divorce at a rate above the national average.  I do worry very much about your kids, Thordaddy...
Divorce data.
By the way, Athiests divorce rate was quite a bit lower than that of, for instance, baptists.

Date: 2006/05/04 09:31:39, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Paley, why not practice a little self discipline and simply not post in any new threads until you have delivered what you agreed too?  We have all  been waiting patiently, YOU made all the promises.  If you would simply concede or forego arguments instead of forestalling the inevitable with your worthless promises, you might have a shred of credibility.  You broke your word at least 4 times by your own count.  You are saying now that you will keep one of your four promises if we jump through your hoop?

RUBBISH!

Date: 2006/05/04 09:55:09, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ May 04 2006,11:43)
Hey Flint, when I get more time, I'll explain the linkage between gay marriage and promiscuity. Basically, it boils down to gay marriage -> gay families -> more sexually ambivalent children + more "forced" societal acceptance + lax culture -> promiscuity. More later (but apparently, not much more, with the way the vote is shaping up).

Mendelian genetics at work.  If dad 1 is a carrier of gay, and dad 2 is full-blown gay, what are the chances that the son dad 1 is about to give birth to be gay? (Assuming gay is recessive)

Date: 2006/05/04 10:03:08, Link
Author: Seven Popes
AFDave...
1975.
Nineteen seventy five.
(heeeee)
AIG was fact-mining.
   * January 1 - Watergate scandal: John N. Mitchell, H. R. Haldeman, John D. Ehrlichman are found guilty of the Watergate cover-up
   * January 2 - The Federal Rules of Evidence are approved by Congress
   * January 5 - The Tasman Bridge in Tasmania, Australia, is struck by the bulk ore carrier Lake Illawarra, killing twelve people.
   * January 7 - OPEC agrees to raise crude oil prices by 10%.
   * January 8 - Ella Grasso becomes Governor of Connecticut, becoming the first woman to serve as a Governor in the United States who did not succeed her husband
      * January 29 - Weather Underground bombs US State Department main office in Washington D.C.
   * January - Altair 8800 is released, sparking the era of the microcomputer

Why would someone quote a paper this old?  Perhaps subsequent papers disagreed with it and produced inconvenient results? Lying for Jesus by omission.

Date: 2006/05/04 10:35:12, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ May 04 2006,15:27)
Google's faster my friend ... and it got me as far as this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee_Genome_Project

but I could not find anything about chromosome reading being directional ... so I thank "whoever-it-was" for that!

AFDave, you are one step away... now all you have to do is Google before you cut and paste an inane quote from AIG, and you can answer your own questions.  AIG knowingly lied to you, AFDave.  What did that feel like?

Date: 2006/05/04 11:43:10, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ May 04 2006,16:33)
Quote
You've been admonished several times that you'll wear out everyone's patience if you don't get down to supporting these three assertions.

Relax.  Relax.  We'll get there ... besides, aren't you having fun beating up on a YECer?  Just think ... you might even make a convert!

Beating up a YECer? Fun? Not much sport really.
Make a convert?  Why would we care to make one of you?  You won't even Google that rubbish from AIG for truthiness before cutting and pasting it here.  Can't see how much use you'd be to science.

Date: 2006/05/04 13:58:01, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Yeah ToeJam, that was a little disquieting. (dad 2 is full-blown gay) To answer your question,
Would a "Gay Gene" disprove I.D.?

Date: 2006/05/04 14:05:17, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Paley, why not practice a little self discipline and simply not post in any new threads until you have delivered what you agreed too?  We have all  been waiting patiently, YOU made all the promises.  If you would simply concede or forego arguments instead of forestalling the inevitable with your worthless promises, you might have a shred of credibility.  You broke your word at least 4 times by your own count.  You are saying now that you will keep one of your four promises if we jump through your hoop?
RUBBISH!
[/SHRUG]

Date: 2006/05/04 14:56:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
At least GOP will discuss the chances of homosexual offspring resulting from man/man sex.  Most of you would never have done that! :0

Date: 2006/05/04 16:15:39, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ May 04 2006,20:32)
Quote
Hey, a thread with an interesting discussion in it! What happened?


What happened?

... you guys finally got one over on AIG after many years of trying ...

Your welcome!

AFDave, that was soo sad.  That was your argument, not ours.  One of the few pieces of proof you have posited.  It was blown to confetti.  Try again, but Google first.

Date: 2006/05/04 16:19:12, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Paley, why not practice a little self discipline and simply not post in any new threads until you have delivered what you agreed too?  We have all  been waiting patiently, YOU made all the promises.  If you would simply concede or forego arguments instead of forestalling the inevitable with your worthless promises, you might have a shred of credibility.  You broke your word at least 4 times by your own count.  You are saying now that you will keep one of your four promises if we jump through your hoop?

RUBBISH!

Date: 2006/05/04 16:45:49, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (thordaddy @ May 04 2006,21:43)
I'm looking for any liberal that will clearly articulate their advocating for gay "marriage?"

Why is gay "marriage" necessary and needed in our society?

What are the liberal arguments, exactly?

PuckSR have some guts?
Come on, Occam?
EricMurphy, what's your argument?

Thor, as you have proven, we don't need heterosexual marriage either.

Date: 2006/05/04 16:57:26, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (thordaddy @ May 04 2006,21:54)
SevenPopes,

So why are the liberals fighting for gay "marriage?"  Is it really necessary for a better society if traditional marriage is that worthless?

Is it worthless? You are the one with bastards.  What will they say in a few years?

Date: 2006/05/08 06:56:20, Link
Author: Seven Popes
AFDave,
Quote
These seem to be contradictory statements to me.  On the one hand you seem to be saying that the brain is evolving (I assume this means humans are getting smarter), then on the other hand you say that bacteria are the most 'evolved'  

The brain is changing. Bacteria have undergone more of a change.  Evolution predicts that the more reproductive cycles an organism undergoes, the greater the chances of a mutation linked to reproduction.  Add stress that tends to favor successful mutations, and you have a system that promotes change and rewards more successful creatures with more surviving offspring. Does this mean that bacteria are inferior because they do not have highly developed brains?  Of course not.  They are successful as bacteria, successful in changing enough to continually infect other organisms.

Date: 2006/05/08 10:27:12, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (thordaddy @ May 04 2006,22:0)
Seven Popes,

I don't think they will say anything.  What's a bastard child these days anyway?  Traditional marriage is a discriminatory and intolerant institution.  You should be applauding my "liberalism" and instead you intend to stab me in the back.  This is "liberalism" at its finest.  No principles and no conviction.

Ironically, your children will benefit from a liberal society.  That's great for them, they are not guilty.  You are.  You and the woman who made the little bastards.  Bastard children tear apart the fabric of marriage.  Thordaddy, YOU are guilty of demeaning marriage.  Simply admit it, accept responsibility here.  You have no principles and no conviction.
<!--emo&:p  :p  :p  :p  :p  :p  :p  :p  :p

Date: 2006/05/08 13:10:53, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (thordaddy @ May 08 2006,17:13)
Seven Popes,

I would be way more guilty if they were aborted.  I can deal with "illegitimate" children, or what you call "bastards," because the state doesn't confer legitimacy to my children in my book.  In fact, the "liberal" society you claim they will benefit from could have cared less whether they came into being or not.  So your "benefit" is hollow and only springs from apathy/indifference as oppsed to any genuine concern for my kids.

At least you agree that you are guilty.
Surely you have heard how these things were viewed in the past?  In these kind times, at least your children won't be taunted, ridiculed, and ostracized by others, children and adults alike.  That is a kindness, you agree?

Date: 2006/05/08 13:18:36, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Paley, why not practice a little self discipline and simply not post in any new threads until you have delivered what you agreed too?  We have all  been waiting patiently, YOU made all the promises.  If you would simply concede or forego arguments instead of forestalling the inevitable with your worthless promises, you might have a shred of credibility.  You broke your word at least 4 times by your own count.  You are saying now that you will keep one of your four promises if we jump through your hoop?

RUBBISH!
GOP, please stop trolling.

Date: 2006/05/08 13:22:06, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Teach the star controversy?
I'm on board.  Chemistry would have been a snap, too!

Date: 2006/05/09 06:54:42, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Oh fer Gods sake.
500 scientists?
This tard-tacular chestnut again???
Ask how many of those scientists were actually biologists, or part of a related field.
Ask what they actually signed.  Read the document.
Ask how many scientists named "Steve" believe in ToE.(last time I checked, it was over 700.)
AFDave, you need to filter.
You have learned nothing.
You however HAVE absorbed one tiny bucketfull, but shouldn't you do a little critical reading before posting?  Please don't troll with your cut and paste from websites who are lying for their deity.  It makes you no better than they are.
Learn to Google.
Edit: Scientists named Steve.

Date: 2006/05/09 07:10:06, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote

But what we are discussing here is science, and science is NOT a democracy.
Quote

Quite true.  Science is not a democracy.  We have to go with the evidence.  But politicians are elected by majority.  And politicians give funding to public schools and universities.  And if universities behave irresponsibly and teach junk science -- like Darwinism -- and vilify people who don't, then the electorate can demand that the politicians RE-direct the funds to responsible schools.

And Americans don't fret that we are falling behind educationally. But I think that AFDave has a point. How much book learnin do young'uns need? :p

Date: 2006/05/09 08:00:35, Link
Author: Seven Popes
AFDave:
Quote
STAGE 3: And now, ordinary amateur scientists like me are jumping in the fray and shining a light on a foolish theory.

Cutting and pasting from AIG makes you a scientist?  How did you get your purported engineering degree?  Boxtops?

Seriously, you came in here all excited with your fistful of drivel from AIG, it got blasted.  All we need for the next bucketful is some more rubbish from you.  OR, you could read.  Preferably biology. Make it sporting.

Date: 2006/05/09 08:10:13, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Eric, all his quotes are from AIG.  He doesn't even want to read an opposing view.  He comes barreling in here, hyperventilating with excitement, ready to tell off all 'dem science folks.  And got blasted.  AND WENT RIGHT BACK TO AIG.  Wacky! ???
The next step is lying for Jesus.
That's when he fails to really believe all his rubbish, but like AIG repeats it none the less.

Date: 2006/05/09 10:13:13, Link
Author: Seven Popes
American Revolutionary War?

Date: 2006/05/09 16:55:48, Link
Author: Seven Popes
And the wiki link to the above mentioned war.
The Battle of Isandlwana was a battle in the Anglo-Zulu War in which a Zulu army wiped out a British force on January 22, 1879. The British were commanded by Frederick Augustus Thesiger, 2nd Baron Chelmsford.

Date: 2006/05/11 08:33:24, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Why do we believe that gene deletion in L-gulonolactone oxidase causes vitamin C deficiency?  Because we have observed this happening in other species.

Link to abstract.

Date: 2006/05/11 16:31:56, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ May 11 2006,18:49)
WORDS TO LIVE BY
Francis Crick in What Mad Pursuit (New York; Basic Books, 1988) p. 138

"Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved."

OK, Francis ...

THIS IS NOT DESIGNED
(but it looks designed)
BUT IT'S NOT DESIGNED
(but it looks designed)
BUT IT'S NOT DESIGNED
(but it looks designed)
BUT IT'S NOT DESIGNED
(but it looks designed)
BUT IT'S NOT DESIGNED
(but it looks designed)
BUT IT'S NOT DESIGNED
(but it looks designed)
BUT IT'S NOT DESIGNED

HOMINA, HOMINA, HOMINA

AMEN and AMEN

(Seven popes holding stop watch)
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd NOW YOU'RE TROLLING!
:angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:

Date: 2006/05/11 16:36:30, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ May 11 2006,13<!--emo&:0)
Quote
Wrong again, pine breath! You are the common ancestor of both.

Hey watch it, oak breath ... I am the common DESIGNER of both :-)

Quote
It's hard to judge as you haven't presented any evidence for common design.
This is what the ID movement is all about.  Stay tuned!  And tell your friends to quit throwing fire bombs and at least listen .... then make judgment.

That's the hard part -- even getting people to listen --because most people are so set in their thinking.

Well ... I'm quitting until evening ... so I guess I'm gonna start losing now by default.

AFDave, we HAVE listened.  You have provided us with nothing.  Neither have the others that have come here breathless with cut & paste rubbish from AIG, eager to show us that degrees in biology mean nothing.  The very nature of scientists is that they are not set in their ways.  They love controversy, and feast on new information.  You, on the other hand, are frustrated because we anticipate the bad science and pseudo science you're trying to sell.  We have heard this before.  Many of us have asked these very questions of our HIGH SCHOOL BIOLOGY teachers.  Your poor education leaves you unprepared to question the nonsense you have been funneled from AIG.  We're still listening...  But we don't have to be patient.


Quote
Quote
The most evolved life forms on our planet are probably bacteria and virii.
Quote

I just LOVE this one!  My kids got a great laugh too.


P.S. did your wife and kids have a giggle when they read the paper by Hasan L, Vogeli P, Stoll P, Kramer SS, Stranzinger G, Neuenschwander S.?  I knew you would love it, but did they?  I mean, y'all ARE doing the homework, not just trolling, right?

Date: 2006/05/11 17:25:49, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Seven Popes @ May 09 2006,11:54)
Oh fer Gods sake.
500 scientists?
This tard-tacular chestnut again???
Ask how many of those scientists were actually biologists, or part of a related field.
Ask what they actually signed.  Read the document.
Ask how many scientists named "Steve" believe in ToE.(last time I checked, it was over 700.)
AFDave, you need to filter.
You have learned nothing.
You however HAVE absorbed one tiny bucketfull, but shouldn't you do a little critical reading before posting?  Please don't troll with your cut and paste from websites who are lying for their deity.  It makes you no better than they are.
Learn to Google.
Edit: Scientists named Steve.

I read your posts and couldn't find where you responded to this, Hope you will soon.  Still waiting ???  ???  ???

Date: 2006/05/15 10:05:10, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Paley, why not practice a little self discipline and simply not post in any new threads until you have delivered what you agreed too?  We have all  been waiting patiently, YOU made all the promises.  If you would simply concede or forego arguments instead of forestalling the inevitable with your worthless promises, you might have a shred of credibility.  You broke your word at least 4 times by your own count.  You are saying now that you will keep one of your four promises if we jump through your hoop?

RUBBISH!

Date: 2006/05/18 07:16:17, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Steve_H
What part of CH are you in? I miss Graubunden!

Date: 2006/05/18 13:17:52, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Rilke's Granddaughter @ May 18 2006,15:27)
 
Quote (afdave @ May 18 2006,15:20)
Aftershave said ...    
Quote
I'll just note that the sum total of AFDave's scientific knowledge and integrity would comfortably fit inside a thimble, with plenty of room left for his genitalia.


BWE's was funnier. He's still in first place.  But keep trying.  You might pull off a good one yet.



If it's an insult post you're looking for,
I present to you, the SteveStory InsultPost.

I mean, GOD####, that is magnificently retarded. I mean, that post is standing at the pinnacle of a mountain, it's cape flapping in a breeze, sunset casting a golden glow across it's chiseled features, gloriously retarded. It is the ne plus ultra of tard. It is to other retarded posts as Michael Jordan was to Craig Ehlo, on a distinct plane above even the world's best.

This is legendary here, and the IT guys photocopy enlarged it and hung it over a workstation.  It is one of the funniest posts I have read in any bulletin board.

Date: 2006/05/18 13:38:26, Link
Author: Seven Popes
SteveStory, I honestly don't remember because I saved it instead of linking it.  But I do remember the horrific feeling of iced coffee spraying out of my nose when I read it.  Dang it Steve, you owe me an iced coffee.

Date: 2006/06/02 08:36:26, Link
Author: Seven Popes
While reading about the sad state of "research" conducted by RATE, I found THIS ARTICLE.
It suggests that a few years in the petroleum industry shook Glenn Morton's (a former YEC) belief system rather badly.

Date: 2006/06/06 08:24:03, Link
Author: Seven Popes
You B@stards.
You've chased AtardFtardDavetard off.
Now I know how my cat feels after I take away the roach he patiently modified by removing the legs on one side, forcing the roach to run in circles (See! cats make their own fun! )  
It was fun to see AFD flail about, and Iv'e learned more about Portugese from  this thread than anywhere else, but you've run him off.  You couldn't even take one punch. (Wow Dave, Hydrogen loss in Zircons! I think ya got us now...) Now who are we going to wind up? Thordaddy?
B@stards. :p

Date: 2006/06/06 08:31:59, Link
Author: Seven Popes
GOP,do you have to be such an attention whore?  Seriously, you need to get a friend, or at least a pet.  Stop hijacking threads.

Date: 2006/06/06 10:54:48, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I refuse to vote, when it comes to GOP.  But clearly he's trolling this forum, and he's a sad attention whore.

Date: 2006/06/06 16:32:36, Link
Author: Seven Popes
My roomate in NewOrleans used to make the foulest white russians I ever drank.  Her secret? Black coffee, cheap vodka, and Mylanta.  Kept the heartburn at bay, though.

Date: 2006/06/13 15:20:18, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Swiss german, Zurich accent.
Started learning english at  at 3 1/2, watching Sesame Street with my mother.  Parents transferred to USA with intention of only staying 2 years.  Didn't work out that way..

Date: 2006/06/19 12:31:20, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Anyone else remember ANDi?

Oh, and icthy, twenty years ago when I was in the service, one of my comrads and I watched Wizard of Oz, and discussed the psych warfare implications of weaponizing winged monkeys.  Confronted with something like that I would surely go ridgid and topple over.

Date: 2006/06/20 02:34:15, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Making monkey brains bigger?
This is a prime example of science gone awry.  This research is funneling much need grant money from studies which are in the public intrerest, namely, How Can We Make Monkey Brains Tastier?

Date: 2006/06/22 11:31:15, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I will vote that he remain banned untill he produces a degree from a college, including one from either the barber or perhaps clown variety.
Ba-dum dum! :D

Date: 2006/06/22 11:34:54, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ June 22 2006,12:42)
Quote
What is the basis for Dave's puffery?  An SAT score from 28 years ago...

...taken several years and a stint in the military after the age for which SAT scores are relevant.  I mean, he claims to be an engineer, and I would think he'd had at least that much additional education by the time he took the test.  He11, you're not even supposed to have a 12th grade education when you take the test, think about it.

It's a test for 16 year olds, Tardboy; taking it when you are that much older and more educated normalizes your score to, well, normal.

I can only guess his joy when completing a puzzle marked "4 to 6 years" in a matter of only HOURS. :angry:

Date: 2006/06/22 12:55:42, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Dave, which of the above riddles did you find funny?
#1, funny if you are six, I guess...  not really.
#2  Tragic
Neither particularly funny.

<edit>
Actually, #1 is funny to a six year old if you substitute the word "anus" for "bottom"
</edit>

Date: 2006/06/22 17:31:23, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Icky, thats #### funny. I can see the Monkeybrain Macroeconomic Model being formed.
 We really need to have a thread where the funniest quotes are safely placed.  You and  SteveStory have kept me in stiches.(And BWE, and many others). It's one of the reasons I come about :)
Well, that and AF Dave.  But I'm begining to think he's not joking...

Date: 2006/06/26 06:48:33, Link
Author: Seven Popes
AF Dave:
10) No Biblical statement has ever been contradicted by an archaeological discovery, so there is excellent reason for the history in Genesis to carry great weight.
The Tyre Prophecy.
Farrell Till pretty much buried it for me.

Date: 2006/06/26 07:03:17, Link
Author: Seven Popes
The tyre prophecy, for those who don't know, was the work of the prophet Ezekial, chapter 26, verses 3 through 14:
Therefore thus says Yahweh God: "Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea, for I have spoken," says Yahweh God; "it shall become plunder for the nations. Also her daughter villages which are in the fields shall be slain by the sword. Then they shall know that I am Yahweh."

For thus says Yahweh God: "Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, you shall never be rebuilt, for I Yahweh have spoken," says Yahweh God
The problem is, Nebucanezzar failed to take the isle of Tyre, the seat of power.

Date: 2006/06/26 07:49:17, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ June 26 2006,12:25)
Seven Popes...    
Quote
The problem is, Nebucanezzar failed to take the isle of Tyre, the seat of power.

No, 7P, the problem is with you.  You don't have a clue about the history of Tyre because if you did, you would be amazed at the exactness of detail in Ezekiel's prophecy.  I will not go to the trouble of typing it out for you, because you need to go out and buy this book anyway.

Go out and buy Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict."  I have the old version.  In Volume I, you will find the story of the fulfilled prophecy of Tyre laid out in stunning detail on pp. 274-281, meticulously documented with non-Christian historical sources.

This is from a former skeptic, mind you, just like you.  This guy HATED Christianity.  His father was a drunk ... Josh hated Christianity so much he set out to prove it was wrong.

Guess what happened?  He studied prophecies about Tyre and others and He was so amazed at the Bible's accurate fulfilled prophecies and other amazing things about the Bible that he became a Christian ... a very outspoken one!!

How about you, 7P?  Do you have the guts to do an honest inquiry like Josh McDowell did?

It just might change your life!!

Actually, you are wrong.
I do know.
and I did read Mr. McDowell's work.
Anyone wishing to be spared the drivel can look at a synopsis (and refutation) of his failed argument here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/steven_carr/non-messianic.html
AF Dave, You were wrong.

Date: 2006/06/26 14:31:27, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ June 26 2006,12:25)
How about you, 7P?  Do you have the guts to do an honest inquiry like Josh McDowell did?

It just might change your life!!

Tyre is occupied.  Ezekial was wrong.  End of story.
Edit: and Faid has the links.
AF Dave, the bible was wrong.

Date: 2006/06/27 02:49:58, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Nebogipfel @ June 27 2006,05:43)
 
Quote
Oh, I see. You have a problem with me, as Joshua's foot soldier, carrying out orders to kill babies?  So that's what you're worried about.  I see.  That's easy too.  Here's the deal with that.  If I'm Joshua's foot soldier and he's the God-ordained leader (my duly appointed governing official, if you will), then my killing of the babies is simply an official government act for which I am merely an agent, much like the bombing of Hiroshima, which killed a lot of babies too.  See?  It has nothing to do with God's Universal Moral Code which he has written into the consciences of all mankind.  It is a separate issue.

On the one hand, you are talking about the Moral Absolute that "Individual humans are not to kill."  On the other hand you have lawfully instituted, God-ordained governments which are delegated the power by God to kill--capital punishment, war, A-bombs, etc.


To heck with Godwin; Dave, take a trip to Auschwitz and see where this line of thinking ends up. The murder of innocents has nothing to do with "God's Universal Moral Code"? Cobblers.  I'll take being a monkey's cousin descended from pond scum over this nonsense any day of the week, thanks very much.

The Son My massacre (My Lai) was the result of a platoon of Charlie Company, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade blindly following the orders of their leader, Lt. William Calley.     He ordered the machine gunning of  between 374 and 504 innocent civilians.
 Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson, Jr, a helo pilot, put his bird between the troops and the victims, threatening to fire on the  U.S. soldiers if they did not stop the murder.  I wonder how the Old Testament God would have reacted if Hugh Thompson would have stopped Abraham on his way up the mountain?  Or if he tried to talk Joshua out of slaughter?  Would a just God reward Mr. Thompson or others for having killed Abraham to spare his son, as many fringe fundy "pro life" advocates with rifles or explosives who threaten abortion providers seem to advocate?

Date: 2006/06/27 08:07:46, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Uhhh, Yeah.  What Faid said.
I only add the appropriate google map
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=....ut=html
once you go, simply navigate west one click, and select the "SAT" button.
DAVE, IT'S NOT A BARE ROCK.  
Here's the proof.  You are wrong, I have the PHOTOS that PROVE IT!




By the way, you avoided my question..
I wonder how the Old Testament God would have reacted if Hugh Thompson would have stopped Abraham on his way up the mountain?  Or if he tried to talk Joshua out of slaughter?  Would a just God reward Mr. Thompson or others for having killed Abraham to spare his son, as many fringe fundy "pro life" advocates with rifles or explosives who threaten abortion providers seem to advocate?

Date: 2006/07/06 02:49:13, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Posted: June 26 2006,10:45  
10) No Biblical statement has ever been contradicted by an archaeological discovery, so there is excellent reason for the history in Genesis to carry great weight.


Posted: June 26 2006,12:25    
No, 7P, the problem is with you.  You don't have a clue about the history of Tyre because if you did, you would be amazed at the exactness of detail in Ezekiel's prophecy.  I will not go to the trouble of typing it out for you, because you need to go out and buy this book anyway.

Go out and buy Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict."  I have the old version.  In Volume I, you will find the story of the fulfilled prophecy of Tyre laid out in stunning detail on pp. 274-281, meticulously documented with non-Christian historical sources.

This is from a former skeptic, mind you, just like you.  This guy HATED Christianity.  His father was a drunk ... Josh hated Christianity so much he set out to prove it was wrong.

Guess what happened?  He studied prophecies about Tyre and others and He was so amazed at the Bible's accurate fulfilled prophecies and other amazing things about the Bible that he became a Christian ... a very outspoken one!!

How about you, 7P?  Do you have the guts to do an honest inquiry like Josh McDowell did?

It just might change your life!!



Posted: June 26 2006,13:44  
7P...
Quote
Actually, you are wrong. I do know. and I did read Mr. McDowell's work. Anyone wishing to be spared the drivel can look at a synopsis (and refutation) of his failed argument here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/steven_carr/non-messianic.html AF Dave, You were wrong.


Ah yes.  Another infidel site.  Wouldn't you know!  7P, did you know that you can find an internet site to support most anything you want to believe?  I've read your site and you are a fool if you think your internet site refutes McDowell.  

Again, McDowell's case is meticulously documented and solid as a rock.  And that's just ONE of the hundreds of specidically fulfilled prophecies!!!.



Posted: June 29 2006,09:49  
WHERE WE HAVE COME FROM, WHERE WE ARE GOING
THE WONDER OF BIBLE PROPHECY
I find it interesting that skeptics disregard the hundreds of amazing Biblical prophecies about the Messiah found here www.messiahrevealed.org and the prophecies of Daniel about the major world powers -- Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, and focus their skepticism instead on two prophecies which give them a little bit of ammo for their arguments.  The Tyre prophecy admittedly has some points that can be construed one way or the other, and the Nebuchadnezzar in Egypt prophecy does not have much in the way of historical verification.  But it should be noted that at many times in recent history, skeptics have argued that Bible prophecy is false or that some character or nation in the Bible is mythical, simply because archaeology was silent at that time.  The skeptics time and again have been proven to be wrong once more information is known.


Well, I think that the Tyre prophecy is disproven.  Ezekial was clear that Tyre would remain a bare rock forever, and I think that we can all agree that it is not, and has not been so.  In fact, it has been occupied since Ezekial made his prophecy.  The prophecy failed.  
AF Dave, admit that the bible made a mistake, or explain how this part of the prophecy came true.
Be honest, and to be fair, if you chose to ignore this post as you have so many others, you are tacitly admitting the bible was in error.

:p  :p  :p

Date: 2006/07/06 02:56:38, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ July 06 2006,07:52)
Eric...
Quote
But what's really hilarious is Dave's notion that his YEC "science" is somehow, "new," "cutting-edge," or "advanced." YEC was old, dead, and buried 150 years ago. I guess Dave didn't get the memo.
Dead and buried, huh?  Is that why Ager and all the rest I quoted finally succumbed to the truth that YECs have been talking about for those same 150 years?

CATASTROPHISM

I noticed you've been pretty quiet about that, Eric.

But go ahead ... revel in you tiny little victories if it makes you feel better ...

***************************

Hey Seven Popes ... if you think the Bible is disproven because of the Tyre Prophecy, then you are too far gone to have any hope ... Bon Voyage!

And with that, Ladies and Gents, Dave admits the bible has errors!

Date: 2006/07/06 08:18:26, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Well, the Tyre prophecy is disproven.  Ezekial was clear that Tyre would remain a bare rock forever, and I think that we can all agree that it is not, and has not been so.  In fact, it has been occupied since Ezekial made his prophecy.  The prophecy failed.  
AF Dave, admit that the bible made a mistake, or explain how this part of the prophecy came true.
Be honest, and to be fair, if you chose to ignore this post as you have so many others, you are tacitly admitting the bible was in error.
If there is a SINGLE ERROR, how can it be infallible!  By your standard of proof, the house of cards your hypothesis is built on collapses.  No need to go on there, AFD.
Nothing personal, Dave.  You just lost.

Date: 2006/07/06 11:27:15, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ July 06 2006,15:35)
Quote
Since you haven't been able to begin to deal with the tons of evidence that contradict your mental masturbations, everyone else remains unconvinced.


Everyone, that is, except for half the population of the US and a growing % overseas ...

Bwahahahaha .....

But of course they don't matter ...

Only REAL scientists like yourselves matter ...

Oh my ... what will I do now??!!  No one at ATBC finds me convincing!!  I'm so surprised and shocked and disappointed !!!

Yikes.
Spooky flameout.
AF Dave, are you still showing all of this to your kids?
Quote

Hey Seven Popes ... if you think the Bible is disproven because of the Tyre Prophecy, then you are too far gone to have any hope ... Bon Voyage!

That's not what I said.  You know that that's not what I said, and that makes you a Liar.
I said that the bible is not inerrant.  You know it's not.  I proved it.  Ezekial dropped the ball when he said tyre would remain bare.  It's been inhabited before Ezekial, and is today.

Date: 2006/07/19 04:56:40, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 06 2006,13:18)
Well, the Tyre prophecy is disproven.  Ezekial was clear that Tyre would remain a bare rock forever, and I think that we can all agree that it is not, and has not been so.  In fact, it has been occupied since Ezekial made his prophecy.  The prophecy failed.  
AF Dave, admit that the bible made a mistake, or explain how this part of the prophecy came true.
Be honest, and to be fair, if you chose to ignore this post as you have so many others, you are tacitly admitting the bible was in error.
If there is a SINGLE ERROR, how can it be infallible!  By your standard of proof, the house of cards your hypothesis is built on collapses.  No need to go on there, AFD.
Nothing personal, Dave.  You just lost.

Dave, Why do you ignore posts?
How do you explain this one to your kids?  BE HONEST.

Date: 2006/07/24 02:47:57, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ July 22 2006,08:00)
1.  I have not any part of the Bible which anyone has proven to be untrue.  Sometimes a statement appears untrue at first, but upon closer inspection, it proves true after all.
2.  I think the parts that Jesus said were true and the parts He commissioned to be written are the ones we accept as 'Inspired by God.'  Jesus confirmed the inspiration of the OT and he commissioned the apostles to write the NT.  So I take both to be true.
3.  Greek (NT) and Hebrew (OT) if you are highly motivated.  If not, try the New King James or the New American Standard.  I like them both.  Also get a Power Bible CD ROM from www.powerbible.com -- Adam Clarke's commentary and many others contained there are very good.
4.  I don't know of any 'obvious errors' -- we went through one supposed 'error' about Tyre here and it was equivocal at best.  Buy yourself a good book on Bible Difficulties.

according to the dictionary:
Main Entry: equiv·o·cal
Pronunciation: i-'kwi-v&-k&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin aequivocus, from aequi- equi- + voc-, vox voice -- more at VOICE
1 a : subject to two or more interpretations and usually used to mislead or confuse <an equivocal statement> b : uncertain as an indication or sign <equivocal evidence>
2 a : of uncertain nature or classification <equivocal shapes> b : of uncertain disposition toward a person or thing : UNDECIDED <an equivocal attitude> c : of doubtful advantage, genuineness, or moral rectitude <equivocal behavior>
synonym see OBSCURE


How exactly is the Tyre prophecy equivocal?
It stated that Tyre will be bare, and it's not.

Date: 2006/07/24 13:42:40, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ July 24 2006,16:45)
Theropod/Bird link:

Feathered Dinosaurs prove it.
No they don't.
Yes they do. The Ripper cuts in.

Digital Homology
We've got it.
Oh yes.
We're not concerned.
Perhaps you should be.
Here's why.

Pelvovisceral Pump
Ruben's wrong.
Really?


Shuttie, Feduccia.

Paley, why linkspam this thread, and ignore the one you started? Your last post of any material in your geocentric thread was the thirtieth of last month.

Date: 2006/07/24 17:16:06, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 24 2006,07:47)
Quote (afdave @ July 22 2006,08:00)
1.  I have not any part of the Bible which anyone has proven to be untrue.  Sometimes a statement appears untrue at first, but upon closer inspection, it proves true after all.
2.  I think the parts that Jesus said were true and the parts He commissioned to be written are the ones we accept as 'Inspired by God.'  Jesus confirmed the inspiration of the OT and he commissioned the apostles to write the NT.  So I take both to be true.
3.  Greek (NT) and Hebrew (OT) if you are highly motivated.  If not, try the New King James or the New American Standard.  I like them both.  Also get a Power Bible CD ROM from www.powerbible.com -- Adam Clarke's commentary and many others contained there are very good.
4.  I don't know of any 'obvious errors' -- we went through one supposed 'error' about Tyre here and it was equivocal at best.  Buy yourself a good book on Bible Difficulties.



How exactly is the Tyre prophecy equivocal?
It stated that Tyre will be bare, and it's not.

Care to explain dave?  How is a populated Tyre a bare rock?  I give you proof positive of a biblical mistake and you sadly call it equivocal?

Date: 2006/07/25 06:19:11, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ June 29 2006,09:49)
THE WONDER OF BIBLE PROPHECY
I find it interesting that skeptics disregard the hundreds of amazing Biblical prophecies about the Messiah found here www.messiahrevealed.org and the prophecies of Daniel about the major world powers -- Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, and focus their skepticism instead on two prophecies which give them a little bit of ammo for their arguments.  The Tyre prophecy admittedly has some points that can be construed one way or the other, and the Nebuchadnezzar in Egypt prophecy does not have much in the way of historical verification.  But it should be noted that at many times in recent history, skeptics have argued that Bible prophecy is false or that some character or nation in the Bible is mythical, simply because archaeology was silent at that time.  The skeptics time and again have been proven to be wrong once more information is known.

Faid Posted: June 26 2006,16:05  
Ghost, Ghost, Ghost...

Sûr IS Tyre.

http://www.galenfrysinger.com/tyre.htm
http://tyros.leb.net/tyre/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre

"Misleading" my a$$. They LIE.


And postdate, smosdate: What happened to "And you shall be a bare rock, never inhabited again, and people shall look for you but won't find you?  ;)

And who does Ezekiel refer to as "he"? Sometimes Nebuchadnezzar, sometimes Alexander, depending on where it suits us?

Like I said: Pathetic.

Seven Popes Posted: June 26 2006,19:31  
Quote (afdave @ June 26 2006,12:25)
How about you, 7P?  Do you have the guts to do an honest inquiry like Josh McDowell did?

It just might change your life!!

Tyre is occupied.  Ezekial was wrong.  End of story.
Edit: and Faid has the links.
AF Dave, the bible was wrong.


deadman_932 Posted: June 27 2006,14:08  
Ezekiel tells us that Tyre will come to a dreadful end, that it will be no more forever, never to be rebuilt. Tyre will be sunk into the primeval ocean, never to be found again.

None of this ever happened. The "rock" that was Tyre is now connected to the mainland, forming an isthmus that is chock-full of rubble and debris of thousands of years

It is not underwater at all. It has been continuously inhabited since 1600 BCE. After his conquest of 322, Alexander in fact rebuilt Tyre. Thus,  McDowell (Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Vol. I) has to claim that 1291 AD then becomes the "real" destruction of Tyre, when the Mamluks conquer it...yet it remained and remains inhabited today.  
Joukowsky, Martha Sharp, ed. (1992). The Heritage of Tyre: Essays on the History, Archaeology, and Preservation of Tyre. Dubuque, IA: Kendall/Hunt Publishing Co.
Aubet, Maria Eugenia.(1997). The Phoenicians and the West : politics, colonies, and trade. New York : Cambridge University Press.
Lipinski, E., ed. Phoenicia and the Bible (1991) : Proceedings of the Conference Held at the University of Leuven on the 15th and 16th of March 1990. Leuven : Departement Orientalistiek : Peeters.


After proof that Tyre is still occupied, you avoided the question, and continue to do so.  Stop running, dave

Date: 2006/07/25 09:22:13, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 06 2006,07:49)
Posted: June 26 2006,10:45  
10) No Biblical statement has ever been contradicted by an archaeological discovery, so there is excellent reason for the history in Genesis to carry great weight.


Posted: June 26 2006,12:25    
No, 7P, the problem is with you.  You don't have a clue about the history of Tyre because if you did, you would be amazed at the exactness of detail in Ezekiel's prophecy.  I will not go to the trouble of typing it out for you, because you need to go out and buy this book anyway.

Go out and buy Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict."  I have the old version.  In Volume I, you will find the story of the fulfilled prophecy of Tyre laid out in stunning detail on pp. 274-281, meticulously documented with non-Christian historical sources.

This is from a former skeptic, mind you, just like you.  This guy HATED Christianity.  His father was a drunk ... Josh hated Christianity so much he set out to prove it was wrong.

Guess what happened?  He studied prophecies about Tyre and others and He was so amazed at the Bible's accurate fulfilled prophecies and other amazing things about the Bible that he became a Christian ... a very outspoken one!!

How about you, 7P?  Do you have the guts to do an honest inquiry like Josh McDowell did?

It just might change your life!!



Posted: June 26 2006,13:44  
7P...
Quote
Actually, you are wrong. I do know. and I did read Mr. McDowell's work. Anyone wishing to be spared the drivel can look at a synopsis (and refutation) of his failed argument here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/steven_carr/non-messianic.html AF Dave, You were wrong.


Ah yes.  Another infidel site.  Wouldn't you know!  7P, did you know that you can find an internet site to support most anything you want to believe?  I've read your site and you are a fool if you think your internet site refutes McDowell.  

Again, McDowell's case is meticulously documented and solid as a rock.  And that's just ONE of the hundreds of specidically fulfilled prophecies!!!.



Posted: June 29 2006,09:49  
WHERE WE HAVE COME FROM, WHERE WE ARE GOING
THE WONDER OF BIBLE PROPHECY
I find it interesting that skeptics disregard the hundreds of amazing Biblical prophecies about the Messiah found here www.messiahrevealed.org and the prophecies of Daniel about the major world powers -- Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, and focus their skepticism instead on two prophecies which give them a little bit of ammo for their arguments.  The Tyre prophecy admittedly has some points that can be construed one way or the other, and the Nebuchadnezzar in Egypt prophecy does not have much in the way of historical verification.  But it should be noted that at many times in recent history, skeptics have argued that Bible prophecy is false or that some character or nation in the Bible is mythical, simply because archaeology was silent at that time.  The skeptics time and again have been proven to be wrong once more information is known.


Well, I think that the Tyre prophecy is disproven.  Ezekial was clear that Tyre would remain a bare rock forever, and I think that we can all agree that it is not, and has not been so.  In fact, it has been occupied since Ezekial made his prophecy.  The prophecy failed.  
AF Dave, admit that the bible made a mistake, or explain how this part of the prophecy came true.
Be honest, and to be fair, if you chose to ignore this post as you have so many others, you are tacitly admitting the bible was in error.

:p  :p  :p

Actually, dave, you never answered this post.  It's been 15 pages, when are you going to address this?

Date: 2006/07/25 12:13:56, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Dave, why are you ignoring MY point? I have been patient and far more polite than even you.  Thirty days since I asked you what was equivocal about the clearly discounted Tyre prophecy, and you all you have done is ignore my questions...

Date: 2006/07/25 17:06:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Dave, why are you ignoring MY point? I have been patient and far more polite than even you.  Thirty days since I asked you what was equivocal about the clearly discounted Tyre prophecy, and you all you have done is ignore my questions...

Date: 2006/07/27 08:13:00, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Dave, why are you ignoring MY point? I have been patient and far more polite than even you.  Thirty days since I asked you what was equivocal about the clearly discounted Tyre prophecy, and you all you have done is ignore my questions...

Date: 2006/07/27 09:22:12, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (jeannot @ July 27 2006,13:56)
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 27 2006,13:13)
Dave, why are you ignoring MY point? I have been patient and far more polite than even you.  Thirty days since I asked you what was equivocal about the clearly discounted Tyre prophecy, and you all you have done is ignore my questions...

Integrity is a virtue that Dave doesn't know.
You point an obvious error in the Bible, the only thing he can do is ignore it.

Dave doesn't have any self esteem either. Calling him a coward won't help it. Playing the buffoon is not a problem for him.

Yes, Jeannot, I know.
It just hurts, you know... I try to be nice and considerate, and he ignores me, and is mean.  I mean, if he's going to be like that, why did he even come <sniff> to the dance ,errrr the webforum anyway...  He's just a big meanie.
I wonder what his reaction will be when his kids ask the same questions?  Will he do what he did to me?  Ignore my questions for a month, and then say that the the prophecy could be interpreted in other ways?  I was clear, and he evaded me...  Hope he won't do the same to his kids...  He reads this stuff to them, you know.

Date: 2006/08/03 13:06:26, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ July 27 2006,22:09)
What will you do without my guidance and wisdom for 2 days?

I know it will be tough.

Maybe you can all study up some and be better prepared for all I'm going to put you through next week!!

It's next week, Dave.
Edit, Quite right, Glen D!

Date: 2006/08/10 10:23:32, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ Aug. 06 2006,22:24)
Ichthyic ...  
Quote
Do you realize your a dishonest idiot and just plow ahead anyway?  Or do you honestly think the "references" you posted actually have real world meaning?

I'm genuinely curious.  Are these ancient encyclopedias the primary "textbooks" you use to teach your own kids with?
You (and JonF and Deadman) really have not figured me out yet, have you?  Good.  This serves my purpose very well.

Purpose? LOKI TROLL.
No one can be this thick.
I admit I was suckered for the first 100 pages, but not anymore.

Date: 2006/08/15 04:20:39, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote

(Paul Flocken ... this was a joke ... I know you think I am too dumb to know what an evaporite is and you probably think I'm so dumb that I think EB really believes God created the earth ... so put your mind at ease ... I'm not that dumb)


In your own words then Dave, how dumb are you?

Date: 2006/08/24 06:10:18, Link
Author: Seven Popes
AFdave=Pwned!!!!!!!!!!111111

Date: 2006/08/31 06:42:27, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I love this Link on inbreeding at the Arizona/Utah border.  Maybe Alabama can change it's motto away from Thank God For Mississipi, I like the way "TGFU" rolls off the tounge
 
Quote

"Joseph Smith was also selecting for the 'obedience gene.' He was kicking people out, too, who weren't obedient.

"I hate to talk like this about my own genealogy," Wyler says, "but, literally, they are keeping all the breeding stock -- the women, the [strictly faithful] men -- and weeding out the disobedient men."

The ultimate goal of the breeding program, Wyler says, is to create the perfect race.

"Remember how Hitler was trying to breed a perfect race?" he says. "Warren Jeffs is also trying to breed a perfect race."

The widespread presence of the fumarase deficiency gene in the bloodlines of the founding families of Colorado City is going to make reaching any such goal extremely difficult.

The few dissenters in the community say the serious genetic problems that are beginning to surface are an indication that the closed FLDS society could eventually collapse.

"Maybe it will just self-destruct," historian Bistline says of the fundamentalist church he quit 20 years ago because of a dispute over religious doctrine and property ownership. "In the meantime, the taxpayers have to pay the bills."

Are you sure you want to teach AFDave about Genetics?
Apropo of nothing, great music references.. Meat puppets, Louis mentioned Social Distortion! Who thought ATBC would be a haven for greying punk rockers?

Date: 2006/08/31 16:12:14, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Another AFDave thigh slapper. ???

Date: 2006/08/31 17:16:39, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ Aug. 31 2006,21:50)
Well, hello, 7P ... glad you are still here drinking from the Fount of Creationist Wisdom :-)

I know you are getting thirsty ... it's been a couple days since I quenched your thirst ...

Creepy.
Tyre.

Date: 2006/09/05 16:55:07, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Clamboy, I understand your point, but the beetle species numbers can be easily shrugged at by uninitiated.  What brought the bizarrely brief time alloted by the YEC'ers into sharp focus for me was the post that there would have to be bred a new species of primate every seven years.  That's a lot of smokin' hot monkey lovin'.  You can't ignore that level of incense burning, Barry White listening, no-holds-barred cross species swinging.

Date: 2006/09/08 10:31:28, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 24 2006,22:16)
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 24 2006,07:47)
Quote (afdave @ July 22 2006,08:00)
1.  I have not any part of the Bible which anyone has proven to be untrue.  Sometimes a statement appears untrue at first, but upon closer inspection, it proves true after all.
2.  I think the parts that Jesus said were true and the parts He commissioned to be written are the ones we accept as 'Inspired by God.'  Jesus confirmed the inspiration of the OT and he commissioned the apostles to write the NT.  So I take both to be true.
3.  Greek (NT) and Hebrew (OT) if you are highly motivated.  If not, try the New King James or the New American Standard.  I like them both.  Also get a Power Bible CD ROM from www.powerbible.com -- Adam Clarke's commentary and many others contained there are very good.
4.  I don't know of any 'obvious errors' -- we went through one supposed 'error' about Tyre here and it was equivocal at best.  Buy yourself a good book on Bible Difficulties.



How exactly is the Tyre prophecy equivocal?
It stated that Tyre will be bare, and it's not.

Care to explain dave?  How is a populated Tyre a bare rock?  I give you proof positive of a biblical mistake and you sadly call it equivocal?

I caught you in a lie, Mr. Dawkins, And I have been quite polite about it, and you have not been.  I hope you can finally clear this up.

Date: 2006/09/08 17:37:46, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Breathtakingly tardtastic.

"As Dr Lee Spetner has pointed out in his book (above, right) and refutations of sceptics, no one has yet found a mutation that adds new complex coded heritable information to any organism. If mutations are really responsible for all the information added to a microbe to make a man, there should be plenty happening today that could be observed."

Drug resistant staph.
From wiki
"Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) is a specific strain of the Staphylococcus aureus bacterium that has developed antibiotic resistance to all penicillins, including methicillin and other narrow-spectrum &#946;-lactamase-resistant penicillin antibiotics.[1] MRSA was first discovered in the UK in 1961 and is now widespread, particularly in the hospital setting where it is commonly termed a superbug."


Did you really read any of this before cutting and pasting this rubbish?
edit [/tardgasm]
edit [/squee]

Date: 2006/09/08 18:25:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
He may be a biologist, but he aint no chemist.
I particularly like this bit:
Quote
With the recombinations due to sexual reproduction, this amounts to a potential number of different genotypes in the descendants of 1030,000 (this is 1 followed by 30,000 zeros). To put this in perspective, there are thought to be some 1080 atoms in the Universe! So, it appears that two wolves could produce quite a few descendants before the pattern would have to be repeated! Now because not every gene locus is likely to be heterozygous in the original pair, and because of recessive alleles not every gene will be expressed, so the number of animals that could actually be different in their form (‘phenotype’) would be less than the huge number above.



Dave,
SUDO ReadBeforePosting


I suppose there are like, what... ten of each of these?

Date: 2006/09/10 06:30:28, Link
Author: Seven Popes
What you actually wrote:
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 08 2006,15:31)
 
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 24 2006,22:16)
 
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 24 2006,07:47)
   
Quote (afdave @ July 22 2006,08:00)
1.  I have not any part of the Bible which anyone has proven to be untrue.  Sometimes a statement appears untrue at first, but upon closer inspection, it proves true after all.
2.  I think the parts that Jesus said were true and the parts He commissioned to be written are the ones we accept as 'Inspired by God.'  Jesus confirmed the inspiration of the OT and he commissioned the apostles to write the NT.  So I take both to be true.
3.  Greek (NT) and Hebrew (OT) if you are highly motivated.  If not, try the New King James or the New American Standard.  I like them both.  Also get a Power Bible CD ROM from www.powerbible.com -- Adam Clarke's commentary and many others contained there are very good.
4.  I don't know of any 'obvious errors' -- we went through one supposed 'error' about Tyre here and it was equivocal at best.  Buy yourself a good book on Bible Difficulties.



How exactly is the Tyre prophecy equivocal?
It stated that Tyre will be bare, and it's not.

Care to explain dave?  How is a populated Tyre a bare rock?  I give you proof positive of a biblical mistake and you sadly call it equivocal?

I caught you in a lie, Mr. Dawkins, And I have been quite polite about it, and you have not been.  I hope you can finally clear this up.


And now this, on page 182.
 
Quote

Oh ... and you wanted to know about Tyre?  I beat that one to death ...oh ... about a hundred pages ago or so.  Not planning on repeating.  Sorry.



Mr. Dawkins, you are clearly lying.  Why?

Date: 2006/09/11 02:41:13, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ Sep. 11 2006,06:21)
135 miles on your bike?  This weekend?  As in bicycle??!!  Not a motorcycle?  Wow ... you just officially obtained my respect ... not in science, but in biking! What do you do for a living?

How condencending and rude Dave...
Quote

Poor 7P ... will someone kindly refer him to the appropriate page for the start of the Tyre debate.  I don't want to take the time to find it and I have not yet found a search feature on this forum.  I guess I should figure out this Permalink thing sometime, huh ...

Your information is ready, sir.  You have run at least a half a dozen times from this, and are now caught in a lie.

Date: 2006/09/11 05:47:25, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 10 2006,11:30)
What you actually wrote:
 
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 08 2006,15:31)
   
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 24 2006,22:16)
   
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 24 2006,07:47)
     
Quote (afdave @ July 22 2006,08:00)
1.  I have not any part of the Bible which anyone has proven to be untrue.  Sometimes a statement appears untrue at first, but upon closer inspection, it proves true after all.
2.  I think the parts that Jesus said were true and the parts He commissioned to be written are the ones we accept as 'Inspired by God.'  Jesus confirmed the inspiration of the OT and he commissioned the apostles to write the NT.  So I take both to be true.
3.  Greek (NT) and Hebrew (OT) if you are highly motivated.  If not, try the New King James or the New American Standard.  I like them both.  Also get a Power Bible CD ROM from www.powerbible.com -- Adam Clarke's commentary and many others contained there are very good.
4.  I don't know of any 'obvious errors' -- we went through one supposed 'error' about Tyre here and it was equivocal at best.  Buy yourself a good book on Bible Difficulties.



How exactly is the Tyre prophecy equivocal?
It stated that Tyre will be bare, and it's not.

Care to explain dave?  How is a populated Tyre a bare rock?  I give you proof positive of a biblical mistake and you sadly call it equivocal?

I caught you in a lie, Mr. Dawkins, And I have been quite polite about it, and you have not been.  I hope you can finally clear this up.


And now this, on page 182.
   
Quote

Oh ... and you wanted to know about Tyre?  I beat that one to death ...oh ... about a hundred pages ago or so.  Not planning on repeating.  Sorry.



Mr. Dawkins, you are clearly lying.  Why?

Well? How was it "beat to death"? :)
A simple honest answer will do, sir.

Date: 2006/09/11 08:49:40, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 11 2006,10:47)
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 10 2006,11:30)
What you actually wrote:
   
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 08 2006,15:31)
   
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 24 2006,22:16)
     
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 24 2006,07:47)
     
Quote (afdave @ July 22 2006,08:00)
1.  I have not any part of the Bible which anyone has proven to be untrue.  Sometimes a statement appears untrue at first, but upon closer inspection, it proves true after all.
2.  I think the parts that Jesus said were true and the parts He commissioned to be written are the ones we accept as 'Inspired by God.'  Jesus confirmed the inspiration of the OT and he commissioned the apostles to write the NT.  So I take both to be true.
3.  Greek (NT) and Hebrew (OT) if you are highly motivated.  If not, try the New King James or the New American Standard.  I like them both.  Also get a Power Bible CD ROM from www.powerbible.com -- Adam Clarke's commentary and many others contained there are very good.
4.  I don't know of any 'obvious errors' -- we went through one supposed 'error' about Tyre here and it was equivocal at best.  Buy yourself a good book on Bible Difficulties.



How exactly is the Tyre prophecy equivocal?
It stated that Tyre will be bare, and it's not.

Care to explain dave?  How is a populated Tyre a bare rock?  I give you proof positive of a biblical mistake and you sadly call it equivocal?

I caught you in a lie, Mr. Dawkins, And I have been quite polite about it, and you have not been.  I hope you can finally clear this up.


And now this, on page 182.
   
Quote

Oh ... and you wanted to know about Tyre?  I beat that one to death ...oh ... about a hundred pages ago or so.  Not planning on repeating.  Sorry.



Mr. Dawkins, you are clearly lying.  Why?

Well? How was it "beat to death"? :)
A simple honest answer will do, sir.

Still waiting, Mr. Hawkins.
Just a few lines would suffice.

Date: 2006/09/11 12:22:35, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Dave, how long can you continue with you lie?  Address it, allready!
the nested quotes establish a timeline.

Date: 2006/09/11 14:14:48, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Why run anymore Dave?  Why lie?

Date: 2006/09/12 08:52:46, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 11 2006,13:49)
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 11 2006,10:47)
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 10 2006,11:30)
What you actually wrote:
   
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 08 2006,15:31)
     
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 24 2006,22:16)
     
Quote (Seven Popes @ July 24 2006,07:47)
       
Quote (afdave @ July 22 2006,08:00)
1.  I have not any part of the Bible which anyone has proven to be untrue.  Sometimes a statement appears untrue at first, but upon closer inspection, it proves true after all.
2.  I think the parts that Jesus said were true and the parts He commissioned to be written are the ones we accept as 'Inspired by God.'  Jesus confirmed the inspiration of the OT and he commissioned the apostles to write the NT.  So I take both to be true.
3.  Greek (NT) and Hebrew (OT) if you are highly motivated.  If not, try the New King James or the New American Standard.  I like them both.  Also get a Power Bible CD ROM from www.powerbible.com -- Adam Clarke's commentary and many others contained there are very good.
4.  I don't know of any 'obvious errors' -- we went through one supposed 'error' about Tyre here and it was equivocal at best.  Buy yourself a good book on Bible Difficulties.



How exactly is the Tyre prophecy equivocal?
It stated that Tyre will be bare, and it's not.

Care to explain dave?  How is a populated Tyre a bare rock?  I give you proof positive of a biblical mistake and you sadly call it equivocal?

I caught you in a lie, Mr. Dawkins, And I have been quite polite about it, and you have not been.  I hope you can finally clear this up.


And now this, on page 182.
     
Quote

Oh ... and you wanted to know about Tyre?  I beat that one to death ...oh ... about a hundred pages ago or so.  Not planning on repeating.  Sorry.



Mr. Dawkins, you are clearly lying.  Why?

Well? How was it "beat to death"? :)
A simple honest answer will do, sir.

Still waiting, Mr. Hawkins.
Just a few lines would suffice.

At this point, Mr. Hawkins, I would probably be satisfied with an explanation of why you continue to lie about our discussion.

Date: 2006/09/12 09:11:34, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I read it, Mr. Hawkins, and in it, you mentioned that the results of the prophecy were "equivocal", even though I have proven it did not come true.  I would like you to address your characterization, and simply either admit that the prophecy failed, or show this forum that it was indeed never again inhabited.

Date: 2006/09/12 09:15:32, Link
Author: Seven Popes
The  permalink you were looking for, Dave.

Date: 2006/09/12 09:34:54, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (ericmurphy @ Sep. 12 2006,14:31)
 
Quote (afdave @ Sep. 12 2006,14:03)
Eric-- What page was that on where you re-posted my piece on Tyre.  Will you kindly post that again for 7P?

He's already read it, Dave, which is why he knows (if he didn't know already) that you were totally wrong about Tyre. No matter how many times he reads it, he's not going to come a different conclusion. He's going to come to the same conclusion that everyone else (with the notable exception of you) came to.

Thanks, Eric, but Elvis has fled the building. He bolted right after that post.  I watched him log off.  Shame, one would think that he might be more polite, as I have been to him.

Date: 2006/09/12 11:43:03, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I see you're back, Dave, and are reading this thread.   Are you going to explain why you lied?
Edit, Dooooh! gone again!

Date: 2006/09/12 14:25:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Ichthic, I respectfully disagree.
Do not rob me of my daily entertainment!
Yes he has been caught distorting the truth, and frankly, is at this point an proven and unrepentant liar, but at least he's consistant.

I do however advocate that unlike his thread, Dave Hawkins be closed and stickied for future reference.  
With a top notch cyanoacrylate.

Date: 2006/09/12 15:02:01, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Well Ichthyic, with Thordaddy gone...
well, you know what every village needs, right?

Date: 2006/09/12 17:12:13, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Hi Dave!  See you logged in, still waiting for a little honesty out of you...

Date: 2006/09/12 17:19:37, Link
Author: Seven Popes
And I proved you wrong.  Do you  still you deny you were mistaken?  
Tyre is not a bare rock forever.  I showed you pictures that prove that.  

You are a liar, Dave Hawkins.  You are knowingly lying.
It's not a difference of opinion, I have proven you wrong, and you continue to lie.  I am astounded.

And you with that you logged off and ran away.  Dave Hawkins, you are a liar and a shameful coward.  I hope your children never see this post, it  is a pathetic thing you have just done in the name of your ego.

Date: 2006/09/12 17:46:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
That's the irony! Dave wrote:
Quote
26:4,5 - bare and flat, like the top of a rock.  Fishermen will spread their nets on the site to dry.  FULFILLED. The secular historian Philip Myers said, “Alexander the Great ... Reduced it (the island city) to ruins (332 BC) ... The larger part of the site of the once great city is now bare as the top of a rock -- a place where fishermen that still frequent the spot spread their nets to dry.”

Hmmmm ... secular historian ... not even a 'christofreakazoid' !!
26:14, 21 - never be rebuilt or found.  FULFILLED. Nina Jidejian in “Tyre through the Ages,” Beirut: Dar El-Mashreq Publishers, 1969. --  
She relates that all the wealth of Tyre disappeared to Alexandria and elsewhere” and she concludes, “Tyre's stones may be found as far away as Acre and Beirut ... Looking down into the water one can see a mass of granite columns and stone blocks strewn all over the sea bottom.  Until recently the ruins of Tyre above water were few.”

And yet we gave him proof that the city has been continuously inhabited. It's been built and rebuilt continuously since it's  formation as a city, and Dave will not address that.  Instead, he throws this totally refuted bit of rubbish up and scampers off.

Date: 2006/09/14 03:26:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ Sep. 13 2006,05:49)
MORE FODDER FOR 7 POPES AND TYRE

http://www.tektonics.org/uz/zeketyre.html

http://www.trinitysem.edu/journal/prophesy.html

As anyone with an ounce of honesty and an ability to do Google searches can see, there are many explanations available in addition to the ones I gave from Josh McDowell, which may explain the Tyre prophecy.  I cannot make a water tight argument supporting ALL things in the Bible.  But you as a skeptic also cannot make a watertight argument refuting anything in the Bible.  Are you willing to risk your eternal future with your skepticism?

The bottom line, as I have said before is ... if you want to be a skeptic, you can find a thousand ways ... but if truth is your goal, you can find that also ...

What's your goal 7 Popes?  Is it Truth?  Or is it Skepticism?

Uhhhh, You have the nerve to ask me about my eternal salvation? Dave, all I asked was that you explain why you lied and said you "won" the argument.  I proved you did no such thing, and now this tripe?  Just admit that you lied, Dave Hawkins, and we can move on.  Even if you believe "the evidence is equivocal" rubbish you spout, even if you believe it was a draw, you can't honestly believe you won that argument, so give us a break, ratchet the egomaniacal rhetoric down a notch and be honest.

You are busted, Dave Hawkins. Time to tell the Truth.

Date: 2006/09/14 04:30:25, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 14 2006,08:26)
Quote (afdave @ Sep. 13 2006,05:49)
MORE FODDER FOR 7 POPES AND TYRE

http://www.tektonics.org/uz/zeketyre.html

http://www.trinitysem.edu/journal/prophesy.html

As anyone with an ounce of honesty and an ability to do Google searches can see, there are many explanations available in addition to the ones I gave from Josh McDowell, which may explain the Tyre prophecy.  I cannot make a water tight argument supporting ALL things in the Bible.  But you as a skeptic also cannot make a watertight argument refuting anything in the Bible.  Are you willing to risk your eternal future with your skepticism?

The bottom line, as I have said before is ... if you want to be a skeptic, you can find a thousand ways ... but if truth is your goal, you can find that also ...

What's your goal 7 Popes?  Is it Truth?  Or is it Skepticism?

Uhhhh, You have the nerve to ask me about my eternal salvation? Dave, all I asked was that you explain why you lied and said you "won" the argument.  I proved you did no such thing, and now this tripe?  Just admit that you lied, Dave Hawkins, and we can move on.  Even if you believe "the evidence is equivocal" rubbish you spout, even if you believe it was a draw, you can't honestly believe you won that argument, so give us a break, ratchet the egomaniacal rhetoric down a notch and be honest.

You are busted, Dave Hawkins. Time to tell the Truth.

Dave, don't be a coward.

Date: 2006/09/14 06:54:06, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Seven Popes @ Sep. 14 2006,08:26)
Quote (afdave @ Sep. 13 2006,05:49)
MORE FODDER FOR 7 POPES AND TYRE

http://www.tektonics.org/uz/zeketyre.html

http://www.trinitysem.edu/journal/prophesy.html

As anyone with an ounce of honesty and an ability to do Google searches can see, there are many explanations available in addition to the ones I gave from Josh McDowell, which may explain the Tyre prophecy.  I cannot make a water tight argument supporting ALL things in the Bible.  But you as a skeptic also cannot make a watertight argument refuting anything in the Bible.  Are you willing to risk your eternal future with your skepticism?

The bottom line, as I have said before is ... if you want to be a skeptic, you can find a thousand ways ... but if truth is your goal, you can find that also ...

What's your goal 7 Popes?  Is it Truth?  Or is it Skepticism?

Uhhhh, You have the nerve to ask me about my eternal salvation? Dave, all I asked was that you explain why you lied and said you "won" the argument.  I proved you did no such thing, and now this tripe?  Just admit that you lied, Dave Hawkins, and we can move on.  Even if you believe "the evidence is equivocal" rubbish you spout, even if you believe it was a draw, you can't honestly believe you won that argument, so give us a break, ratchet the egomaniacal rhetoric down a notch and be honest.

You are busted, Dave Hawkins. Time to tell the Truth.

Well, Dave Hawkins?

Date: 2006/09/14 08:12:27, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Just can't admit you were wrong when you claimed victory in our Tyre discussion, eh Dave?
The information is all there, indexed for you.  Why are you running from your own words, Dave?

Date: 2006/09/14 09:16:23, Link
Author: Seven Popes

Kali, destroyer of worlds.
Quote
Kali Maa then devoured the slain bodies of the asuras and danced a fierce dance to celebrate the victory. This dance of destruction began by Kali and her attendants continued for long and none could stop her. To stop her, Shiva himself mingled among the asuras whom she was annihilating. Shiva allowed himself to be trampled upon by her in this dance of victory because this was the only remedy left to bring her to senses and to protect the world from total annihilation. When Kali Maa saw that she was dancing over the body of her husband, she put her tongue out of her mouth in sorrow and surprise. She remained stunned in this posture and this is how Kali is shown in images with the red tongue protruding from her mouth.

Durga Maa then fought the demon Nishumbhu who was slain in no time. Now Shumbhu decided to take on the Goddess (Durga Maa) himself. Reaching the battlefield, he said to the Goddess: "You take pride on others' strength. Why don't you show your own power!"

The Goddess replied with a smile: "Fool! The whole world is just Me. All Creation is my form in a variety of dimensions. I am the cause and effect of everything: all things emerge from me only and ultimately' enter me only. The whole world is in harmony with My Being."

Then after the nine celestial powers (Kali Maa being one of them) which had emerged from the Goddess (Durga Maa) went back into her and she single handedly killed the demon Shumbhu.

Give me that old time religion!

Date: 2006/09/14 10:48:44, Link
Author: Seven Popes

Red Meat.
The bestest Webcomic in teh internets
Nice one in the included link.

Date: 2006/09/14 12:38:58, Link
Author: Seven Popes

Find the devil sign!
(Arden, did you intentionally pick teh gheyest pic of the lot?)
If we collectively sponser the bands UK/US tour, they might headline as the "Church Burning Ebola Brothers".  Love to see the lab coats fly in that mosh-pit.
{edit: just remembered the finest 999, the Ducati by that name!}

Date: 2006/09/19 17:39:01, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 19 2006,15:09)
Arfin' Nutmeld:

 
Quote
Let me guess: you're disappointed with Europe for rejecting Creationism and Fundamentalism.


Not as disappointed as they will be. France and Germany are already hurtin' economically, British youths are turning into thugs, crime rates are rising across Europe.......how long until a crisis erupts, I wonder? Clichy-sous-Bois just dropped off its perch.

And one day soon, their violent crime rate may even rival ours.

Date: 2006/09/21 07:47:59, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Dave, you lied about winning our Tyre debate, and ran for three months when confronted about it.  I find you invalueable.

Date: 2006/09/26 16:38:55, Link
Author: Seven Popes
They have a new user, Davetard!
edit: and
pwnedbyjones
Pwned is apparently videogamer slang for "owned", to be "owned" is to be humiliated by an opponent.
Wiki
Quote
The slang term pwn (pron. pown [as in p+own] or phoned), a term used primarily in the Internet gaming culture, means to defeat an opponent with little or no competition. In this context, to be pwned can be defined as "to get your butt kicked," with the strong connotation of also having been "made a fool of." It is generally used for taunting of a player's in-game enemies, and rubbing in any victories.

Date: 2006/10/03 15:49:21, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (deadman_932 @ Oct. 03 2006,20:20)
BWE: Your chart is stupendalicious, magnelephantine in its granderrificness. It immediately arrested my eyes. After I bailed them out, I was struck by the laserlike wit, the contra-post-modernist subtext and the Joycean playfulness. I am HUMBLED and grateful for each day that I am alive to bask in the glory of your creations.

BWE, Deadman d@mns you with faint praise.  Kidding, this has gotta be your new sig.  I found the chart squee worthy, it restored sight in my bad eye.
Oh, and Dave:
Tyre.

Date: 2006/10/05 12:48:42, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 23 2006,11:44)
Since we're posting lists
A Few Currently Unanswered Questions for Dave
(1) Why can't you provide a means of falsifying your "hypothesis?" This is your job, not that of others.
(2)  You admit you've never seen the supposedly "inerrant" originals of the bible . So-first-how do you know they're "inerrant"? Because the admittedly flawed copies tell you so? And you believe them why? From PuckSR, p.124
(3)  I asked you what was equivocal about the clearly discounted Tyre prophecy, and you all you have done is ignore my questions...for thirty days (from 7_Popes) p.124
(4)  How is the dendrochronology for Catal Huyuk wrong?
(5)  Who do you think had syphilis on the ark?
(6)  If Noah and his little group were the only humans left, can you calculate for me the average number of children each female would have to have in order to achieve the population levels we have today...in 4,356 years??
(7)  How much water was involved in the flood, Dave? Estimate of the amount of water that was underground, and how deep was it? Was it spread uniformly under the crust, or was it in localised (and deep) reservoirs?
(8)  You claim that  humans have been literate since your flood. How come none of them had anything to say about an ice age that froze most of the planet solid? How come there's no independent evidence of it from any written source?
(9)  Identify precisely the source for the "waters of the deep" Dave. point to any geology references that show this "layer of water" existed under the crust.
(10)  Why are there so many profitable companies that use the Old Earth paradigm as the basis for a successful business case?
(11)  Why is there not a single company anywhere in the world that uses your 6000 year old Young Earth paradigm as the basis for a business case?
(12)  How did those tracks get in the coconino sandstone in the midst of a raging flood that deposited billions MORE tons of sediment on top of the sandstone? Sandstone can't "dry" in the middle of a flood that continues to deposit layers under a "water canopy", Dave. Nor would those animals survive UNDERWATER, nor would their tracks survive the pressure of the layers above on the wet sandstone during the "flood year"
(13)  Layers should have SOME animals in them jumbled up *everywhere* dave. There should be dinos with modern rhinos, with deinotheriums and giant sloths, with Devonian amphibians...yet we don't see that. "Hydraulic sorting" won't do, Dave..or claims that mammals are "more mobile"-- this is utter nonsense.
(14)  Why are certain species of animals (fossilized trilobites) found in the lowermost layers, while others of the same approximate size and shape (fossilized clams) can be found at the top layers, even at the top of Mt. Everest? Did the clams outrun the trilobites in the race uphill from the flood waters?
(15)  Fossils of brachiopods and other sessile animals are also present in the Tonto Groupof the Grand Canyon. How could organisms live and build burrows in such rapidly deposited sediments?
(16)  If "Noah's Flood" transported the brachiopods into the formations, how would relatively large brachiopods get sorted with finer grained sediments? Why aren't they with the gravels?
(17)  Where's your evidence that those tens of millions of species radiated from the several hundred species of organisms that could possibly have fit on the ark, all in the space of a few thousand years? Ultra-mega-hyper-macroevolution, at rates millions of times faster than proposed by the Theory of Evolution?
(18)  Where did all that sediment come from? (Hint: it didn't wash down from the mountains) Where did it go?
(19)  Eric (p.129) notes: The continents are covered by an average of 6,000 meters of sediment. How does your 5,000-foot deep flood produce 6,000 meters of sediment?
(20)  Where did all that water in your ‘global flood run-off’---run off to?
(21)  Explain the presence of eolian and evaporite deposits between fluvial or marine deposits, carbonate and dolomite deposits, coal, and why there are clear cycles of regression and transgression present in the rock record allowing for things like sequence stratigraphy to be done.
(22)  Why are large shale formations consistently oxidized and red while others are consistently black and unoxidized?
(23)  How did the Mile-High cliffs of the Grand Canyon harden enough in ONE YEAR so that they didn't SLUMP under the weight of the deposits over them?
(24)  If there was extensive volcanic activity following the flood, why are there no large ash layers or igneous layers in the upper Canyon stratigraphy showing it?
(25)  Explain PRECISELY how the incised meanders, oxbows and the steep sides of the Grand Canyon were formed, given that these meanders are not in Mississipian-type soils, but through rock, including the igneous base schist (obviously , that is not "soft")
(26)  You said that there was only one land mass before the Flood, correct? this would mean that Africa and North America moved away from each other at the rate of 1 kilometer per HOUR per the Morris/Austin scenarios, Dave. What would that heat do? Where did that energy go? Why do we still have ANY oceans?
(27)  Why on earth do you want living dinosaurs in your timeline at the end of the flood ? When did they die out?
(28)  Why isn't plutonium-239 found to naturally occur? It has a good 20,000 year half-life, or thereabout, and could easily exist from the point of creation. Certainly we have any number of radioactive elements, but other than the ones that are produced by ongoing processes, we find none that wouldn't have disappeared to undetectable levels within 4 and a half billion years
(29)  Please explain the Oklo natural nuclear reactor
(30)  Why don't we see evidence of fast sea-floor spreading paleomagnetically? Remember, Africa and the Americas have to be FLYING away from each other at the rate of 1 kilometer PER HOUR.
(31)  Why does the magnetic dating of oceanic basalts show a longer period of time than your flood claim, Dave? (32) Why is the basalt cooler the further away you move from the rift zones? Calculate rates of cooling for basalt.
(33)  Why don't we see evidence of your massive flood and "tsunamis" in the deep-sea cores?
(34)  Why don't we see evidence of your massive volcanic activity, and carbon dioxide levels and HEAT in the ice cores?
(35)  Why don't we see disruption of the varves?
(36)  Why are mountains near each other differentially eroded if they were all formed at the same time in your "theory?"
(37)  Dave says that the rocky mountain- andes form a north-south chain that was created by rapid movement of the plates.    
Quote
I say they moved away from the Mid-Ocean Ridge, then stopped rather suddenly. This caused folding and thickening onthe leading edge of the plate and generated massive quantities of heat and pressure leading to metamorphism.
> This does not explain the east-west tending ranges of the Americas, Eurasia and Africa (himalayas, atlas mts., transverse ranges). Dave was asked: Did those continents STOP TWICE? IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS? IN ONE YEAR?
(38)   JonF noted that such rapid movements of plates and "sudden stopping" would melt the rock. Dave doesn't give a response or answer to that little problem.
(39)   Precisely how were the Vertebrae Ridge mountains you posted...metamorphosed?
(40)  Dave said that as the continents shifted the layers were folded, heated (and metamorphosed) and uplifted, all in a very short time span. He claimed "These are all very well-understood processes and this is a very plausible scenario". I asked Dave to show me references for this "well understood process " in regard to the Vertebrae Ridge gneiss. He failed to answer p.125
(41)  How did the iridium layer between the Cretaceous and the Tertiary appear within flood waters... the iridium layer is especially interesting, since it is global. How could iridium segregate markedly into a single thin layer...and why does the iridium layer "just happen" to date to the same time as the Chicxulub crater?
(42)  The Arizona Barringer Meteor penetrates the Permian Kaibab and Toroweap Formations and has caused shock effects on the Coconino Sandstone. Because the crater penetrates Permian strata, it is Permian or younger. And since the crater contains some Pleistocene lake deposits, it is Pleistocene or older. The Geomorphology of the crater itself indicates only a small amount of erosion. The Crater is dated at 49,000 years old. Explain this, DaveStupid.
(43)  Did the earth cool down several hundred degrees in 6000 years or so? Please explain the thermodynamics of such a cooling process.
(44)  Dave, since this is supposedly your "hypothesis" we're talking about here, how do you date the Grand Canyon?
(45)  How was a  canyon is carved in limestone and buried under 17000 feet of sediment in the Tarim Basin in far western China?That's over three miles deep of overlying rock and soil for the mathematically challenged Fundies out there.
(46)  I'm incredibly interested in how the Kaibab was formed in your model, Dave. Tell me how limestone was preferentially deposited in that layer. How is it that calcium carbonate was deposited in a flood, with the turbidity of a flood?
(47)  Dave claimed ( p.138, this thread) that only 3 radiometric dates had been given him, then that only three layers were dated. I asked: "okay, dave shithead...you said that I only provided three radiometric dates...want to make a gentleman's agreement on that? I'll bet you that I have given you much more than that. I will leave this forum and proclaim your victory if I am wrong." And: "Okay, let's switch it to your claim that only three layers have been dated, DaveShithead...want a gentleman's agreement on that? I'll not only leave this forum, but I'll pay for my plane ticket to your church and proclaim in front of them how I was wrong...IF I am wrong. In return--if you are wrong, you will get in front of your group at church and film it while you say you were wrong, begging my forgiveness, and post it on the internet here. Cowardly Dave refused to answer.
(48)  Explain the Paleosols we see in the Grand Staircase
(49)  Explain the buried vertical Yellowstone forests that have paleosols between them
(50) Why do you choose to lie deliberately so much, MaggotDave?

I would accept a global stratum that indicates a global flood. Such a stratum would have CLEAR indications of pre- and postflood strata bracketing it.
What creationists do is wave their delicate hands at ALL sedimentary layers and say "that MIGHT be one" without EVER clearly saying "here is the preflood basement...here's layer(s) X that were laid during the flood...and here are post-flood depositions."
Continents zooming around clearly did not occur 4300 years ago, nor is there any indication of a post-flood "ice age" which happened while the Egyptians and many others were still literate and writing. I'd accept a global strata, evidence of a massive die-off at that time, including freshwater fish, insects, plants, annelids, etc. but the fact is that no such layer can be shown to exist.

Easy, Eric.
Deadmans "death by a hundred cuts" compilation post.  It's not as beautiful as BWEs graphic arts endeavor, but seriously, what could be? Deadmans work showed fanatical attention to detail, patients, and bloodhound like tracking,  but clearly, while worthy, NOT divinely inspired.  After looking at that graphic this morning, feeling returned to my left leg, and the doctors say i might walk again. :D

Date: 2006/10/05 13:48:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
To quote Mohandas Gandhi :
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win
Or in AFDaves View,
First he fights you, then he laughs at you, then he ignores you, then you know you've won.

Date: 2006/10/09 08:37:00, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote
 
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 09 2006,13:11)
I hear people saying "Look, here's the whole paragraph, you quote miner."  

... but then no one can explain HOW it is a quote mine

... no one can specifically explain WHY the parts not included change the support for my position.

Russell-- I didn't say you called me names.  I said      
Quote
People who cannot refute facts presented to them which contradict their position often resort to caricatures and name calling.

Quote
I'm going to make a prediction.   I've never read The Blind Watchmaker, but given that you used a Richard Dawkins quote to back up a creationist position, I'm guessing that's a quote mine.  Further on in that same paragraph (and most likely the very next sentance) will explain what he really means.  Any with a copy of the book care to quote the full paragraph?


You win.  Here is the whole Dawkins quote in context, with SFBDave's quote mined part in bold


"Before we come to the sort of sudden bursts that they had in mind, there are some conceivable meanings of 'sudden bursts' that they most definitely did not have in mind. These must be cleared out of the way because they have been the subject of serious misunderstandings. Eldredge and Gould certainly would agree that some very important gaps really are due to imperfections in the fossil record. Very big gaps, too. For example the Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 600 million years, are the oldest ones in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say, this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists. Evolutionists of all stripes believe, however, that this really does represent a very large gap in the fossil record, a gap that is simply due to the fact, for some reason, very few fossils have lasted from periods before about 600 million years ago. One good reason might be that many of these animals had only soft parts to their bodies: no shells or bones to fossilize. If you are a creationist you may think that this is special pleading. My point here is that, when we are talking about gaps of this magnitude, there is no difference whatever in the interpretations of 'punctuationists' and 'gradualists'. Both schools of thought agree that the only alternative explanation of the sudden appearance of so many complex animals types in the Cambrian era is divine creation, and both would reject this alternative. "

Of course, predicting that AFDave Hawkins has been dishonest again is as tough as falling out of a boat and hitting water.



The paragraph before yours points out that the data is subject to misinterpretation:  
Quote
Before we come to the sort of sudden bursts that they had in mind, there are some conceivable meanings of 'sudden bursts' that they most definitely did not have in mind. These must be cleared out of the way because they have been the subject of serious misunderstandings. Eldredge and Gould certainly would agree that some very important gaps really are due to imperfections in the fossil record. Very big gaps, too.


and after:
Quote
Evolutionists of all stripes believe, however, that this really does represent a very large gap in the fossil record, a gap that is simply due to the fact, for some reason, very few fossils have lasted from periods before about 600 million years ago.

You quote mined by taking it out of this context. :p
Honestly, I can't make it any simpler than that.  Even your kids (who I trust are still reading this) will understand why everyone is laughing at you.

Date: 2006/10/26 17:51:16, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (ericmurphy @ Oct. 26 2006,17:55)
One more thing on this ridiculous information theory detour, then I'm done.

Think about this, Dave: as you are probably aware, many encryption techniques take an input stream (the plaintext), and output a stream (the cyphertext) that is nearly perfectly random. In fact, the closer to perfect randomness, the better, in general, the encryption algorithm. Now, if you've got the decryption key, you can get the plaintext back, but otherwise you've got a digital file that is—wait for it—indistinguishable from a digital recording of broadband white noise.

Now, let's say you've got a 20-minute digital recording of broadband white noise, and a digitally-encrypted file of the text of a Winston Churchill speech that happens to be the same size. Without the decryption key, there is no way to tell which one is which.

Now: which of these two files has more Shannon information?

Eric, I read a great paper that posited just that, using bit stream from some satellite as a single use cipher pad.  A simple, unbreakable code.  We must have read the same paper... Tell me if you ever find it, because I would love to show it to the IT guys i work with.
Oh, and though it doesn't need to be said yet again, You are correct, and Dave is wrong.  But the lad is having a bit of a Tyre -rade, and simply cannot accept he's wrong after all the hand waving and appeals  to incredulity.  Look at it this way, If he ever does admit you might be right, He will simply claim victory in the argument anyway, and those of us that can read big words with comprehension already know you're correct.

Date: 2006/11/16 16:14:28, Link
Author: Seven Popes
So AFDave, How did it go with the guys from AIG? You've been quiet about the meeting you arranged, and your posts afterwards have taken an odd turn.  Was the meeting a bit underwhelming?
 Are things really so bad on the AIG "sciencey" front that their articles openly admit to starting with the bible and fudgeing their data to fit?   :(

Date: 2006/11/16 18:08:27, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote
Presuming that the fossil carbon was removed from the biosphere by the flood, one can postulate that the preflood biosphere contained in the order of 500 times more carbon than does the contemporary biosphere.

That, Dave.  
That's the bit they pulled out of their ass.
Why are you repeating failed arguments?  We Just fisked this rubbish 2 pages ago.
Oh, that's right.
This is all you have.
Sorry it's rubbish.

Date: 2006/11/20 14:04:11, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ Nov. 20 2006,12:44)
Allegory?  No.  It is not an allegory that God told the Israelites to stone people for various crimes.  But it does not follow then, that because God told the Israelites to stone people for various crimes, that we, in the USA should ALSO stone people for crimes.  Do I think that adultery is not punished severely enough in the USA?  Yes, I do actually.  I think way too many American men are fooling around on their wives and not taking responsibility for the children they father (either with their wives or with their "playmates").  I think our society would be much better off if men were incentivized to be true to their marriage vows and divorce was not so easy.  There are far too many young kids who are cheated out of having a mom or dad around just because the parents are selfish.  How should we stiffen the penalties?   I don't know, but I'd like to put it on the table for debate.

from http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
Quote
A recent study by the  Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is within 2 percentage points. The survey found:
bullet 11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
bullet 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
bullet Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significently higher than for other faith groups, and for Atheists and Agnostics.

George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:

   "While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."

According to the Dallas Morning News, a Dallas TX newspaper, the national study "raised eyebrows, sowed confusion, [and] even brought on a little holy anger." This caused  George Barna to write a letter to his supporters, saying that he is standing by his data, even though it is upsetting. He said that "We rarely find substantial differences" between the moral behavior of Christians and non-Christians. Barna Project Director Meg Flammang said: "We would love to be able to report that Christians are living very distinct lives and impacting the community, but ... in the area of divorce rates they continue to be the same." Both statements seem to be projecting the belief that conservative Christians, liberal Christians have the same divorce rate. This disagrees with their own data.

Heck, forget divorce.  I would be happy if evangelical leaders would taper off their meth use and stop putting topspin on rent-boys

Date: 2006/12/05 12:06:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote
(Permalink)   Posted: Sep. 10 2006,13:27    
Okay, here's how Black Knight Dave "won" his "Tyre prophesy" argument. Votes as to whether he's right when he says he "won" it.:

Initial Post, Seven Popes:

Seven Popes

Seven Popes explains the prophesy

Dave's pathetic appeal to authority, without explaining how the prophesy was "correct."

Seven Pope's refutation of Dave's claim, with link to supporting evidence.

GoP's link to a completely wrong argument, that tries to weasel out of the fact that Tyre has been continuously inhabited since Nebuchadnezzar's assault. One might as well say that a prophesy that Rome would be destroyed and never rebuilt has been fulfilled, because Rome is a different city now than it was 2,000 years ago.

Dave complains that Seven Popes' refutation is wrong because it's from an
infidel site. But neglects to mention what's wrong about it. He just says it's wrong.

Faid's completely dismantles GoP's attempt to prove the prophesy was fulfilled.

Deadman states the obvious: "Forever" means "Forever."

On a side note, Deadman points out another, different biblical prophesy never fulfilled.

Seven Popes drives in the final nail.

But not to be outdone in the stupidity department, Dave once again tries to claim he's right because the ancient city of Tyre is gone. Duh. Every ancient city is gone, Dave. Is Tyre an uninhabitable rock? No. So in what way have you not lost this argument?

Once again, someone has to point out the obvious to Dave; this time it's Faid. The city that was Tyre is not a "bare rock." It's part of the modern city of Tyre. There is no portion of the old city of Tyre that is currently uninhabitable. But will we get Dave to admit he was wrong? Of course not.

Deadman piles on.

Seven Popes posts the pictures to prove Dave's wrong. Will that get Dave to admit he's wrong? Automatic self-answering question, gentlemen.

Just in case we're still not convinced how wrong Dave is, Deadman posts a map.

To avoid Dave's scattershot attempt to answer every objection to his theory ever given in one post, I'll just quote the relevant bits:

Quote
JOSH McDOWELL ON TYRE
Subtitle: You can pretty much justify anything you want to believe.

Ezekiel 26:8 - Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the mainland city.  FULFILLED in 573, although the island city (where the inhabitants moved to) remained for several hundred years.

26:3 - Many nations against Tyre.  FULFILLED.  In waves:  Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander, Antigonus, and Moslems.

26:4,5 - bare and flat, like the top of a rock.  Fishermen will spread their nets on the site to dry.  FULFILLED. The secular historian Philip Myers said, “Alexander the Great ... Reduced it (the island city) to ruins (332 BC) ... The larger part of the site of the once great city is now bare as the top of a rock -- a place where fishermen that still frequent the spot spread their nets to dry.”

Hmmmm ... secular historian ... not even a 'christofreakazoid' !!

26:14, 21 - never be rebuilt or found.  FULFILLED. Nina Jidejian in “Tyre through the Ages,” Beirut: Dar El-Mashreq Publishers, 1969. --  
She relates that all the wealth of Tyre disappeared to Alexandria and elsewhere” and she concludes, “Tyre's stones may be found as far away as Acre and Beirut ... Looking down into the water one can see a mass of granite columns and stone blocks strewn all over the sea bottom.  Until recently the ruins of Tyre above water were few.”

Now if you guys want to weasel and squirm, I'm sure you can find a way to justify your skepticism, but you cannot avoid the fact that ...

Tyre was a great, powerful, proud city ... And it got destroyed in the exactly detailed way that Ezekiel said it would.  The city that is there now is not the same city.  It's about as similar to ancient Tyre as Microsoft Corporation headquarters is to Feldman's Farm Supply headquarters.  The ancient Tyre of world renown is GONE!

But again, why the fascination with Tyre?  There are more interesting Bible prophecies than this one.  Someone mentioned Nostradamus ... please, now ... How can anyone even compare Nostradamus to Bible prophecy?

Oh, and Deadman ... you are wrong about Nechadnezzar and Babylon ... and I gave you the evidence to prove it.  Go back and re-read it. See also my answer to your question at the end of this post.


As you'll note, Dave was completely unable to get around the fact that Tyre is, in fact, inhabited, and always has been. He conveniently neglects to note that "forever" means "forever." And he fails to explain how modern Tyre is different from ancient Tyre in a way that is completely different from how modern Rome is different from ancient Rome. If the Bible prophesied that Rome would be destroyed, and would be uninhabited forever, would Dave now be arguing that Rome is no longer inhabited because it's a different city?

And that's about it, folks. Dave claims the biblical prophesy that Tyre would be destroyed, and left uninhabited forever, has been fulfilled, despite the fact that Tyre is now, and always has been, inhabited. Show of hands for those who think Dave "won" this argument?

SOOO Dave, You said:
Quote
The Tyre prophecy admittedly has some points that can be construed one way or the other, and the Nebuchadnezzar in Egypt prophecy does not have much in the way of historical verification.

How can the clearly failed Tyre prophecy be "construed one way or the other"  when the prophecy states that it should be bare forever and is not?  I have been extraordinarily patient, but you have ignored this simple question since June 29.
 Permalink proof.

Date: 2006/12/07 10:31:46, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ Dec. 06 2006,12:42)
OA ...    
Quote
BTW, I notice that you are completely ignoring the questions on the placement of fossils in the geological column.  I'll take that as an admission of defeat on your part, that you can't defend your asinine statements are hoping the whole embarrassing (for you) topic goes away. Right?
No. It seems that members here would prefer for me to focus on a limited number of topics at a time.  The main topic now is Points C & D of my CGH under which the current discussion falls nicely.  At some point we will move on, or as I have time, I am willing to re-address old issues.  As I have said many times, putting off answering certain questions is NEVER an admission of defeat on my part.

Dave I understand that you are tying to limit the lines of inquiry that you will address, but I have waited patiently for over 160 days for you to address a simple question:

How can the clearly failed Tyre prophecy be "construed one way or the other"  when the prophecy states that it should be bare forever and is not?

Date: 2006/12/07 12:51:23, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ Dec. 07 2006,12:04)
Also, Russell ... it is a common practice of yours to try to ridicule your ideological opponents by the use of their typographical errors?

Hey Dave, do you REALLY want to go there?  Because you have a track record of doing the same.
Hypocrite.

Date: 2006/12/07 18:37:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ Dec. 07 2006,18:33)
Russell-- It doesn't hurt my feelings ... it just raised some questions about your character in my mind.

Well Dave, what does it say about your character that you did the same to me?

Date: 2006/12/11 12:32:02, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ Dec. 11 2006,11:37)
Russell ...    
Quote
More of that "thou shalt go forth and be annoying". You don't think you reflect badly on your religion when you show this kind of smug arrogance? You think Jesus would approve?
Jesus approved of speaking the truth, confronting error, and being polite, except with hardened deceivers (which I don't think you are one).  Have I called you any names?  Have I treated your statements unfairly?  Or if I did, not fixed it immediately?  Yes, I think Jesus would approve.


(Permalink)   Posted: Dec. 07 2006,12:51    
Quote (afdave @ Dec. 07 2006,12:04)
Also, Russell ... it is a common practice of yours to try to ridicule your ideological opponents by the use of their typographical errors?

Hey Dave, do you REALLY want to go there?  Because you have a track record of doing the same.
Hypocrite.



(Permalink)   Posted: Dec. 07 2006,18:37    
Quote (afdave @ Dec. 07 2006,18:33)
Russell-- It doesn't hurt my feelings ... it just raised some questions about your character in my mind.

Well Dave, what does it say about your character that you did the same to me?

--------------

Date: 2006/12/11 13:48:55, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Wes & SteveStory:
There is a persistent bug in the AFDave threads that needs to be addressed.  Dave is being logged off within minutes of certain keywords (like hyp0cr1te, hope that's safe) being used on his threads.  The error is probably malware, and not just poor code, as AFDave is not even able to see these posts, a clear attempt to hide the 'sploit.
  Just see what you can do, we would all be grateful.

Date: 2006/12/11 22:44:45, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (Seven Popes @ Dec. 07 2006,18:37)
Quote (afdave @ Dec. 07 2006,18:33)
Russell-- It doesn't hurt my feelings ... it just raised some questions about your character in my mind.

Well Dave, what does it say about your character that you did the same to me?

AFDave, this wasn't a rhetorical question..

Date: 2006/12/14 11:53:19, Link
Author: Seven Popes
I realize we're not addressing abiogenisis, but:
How complex is a pile of sand? if I dumped a square meter of sand in one spot, and was able to divine which grains were touching each other, what would be the likelihood that after re-boxing said sand anyone could replicate any given configuration?  What's the likelihood of any given configuration? Trillions to one against?  

With odds that high against any possible configuration, it is impossible to make any mound of sand.  It's far more likely that a tornado in a junkyard would produce a...
bugger....
Surely a big bucket of sand is therefore more complex than a butterfly?

Date: 2007/01/02 21:04:12, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (afdave @ Dec. 29 2006,13:41)
I are?  I am would be more proper English, no?

Dave Hawkins, when your kids one day Google your name, examples of your hypocrisy will probably sadden them.  Unless it simply confirms what they see in you day to day, which should sadden you.  SOOO Dave Hawkins, What does your above quote say about your character? Just a few pages after writing:
 
Quote (afdave @ Dec. 07 2006,18:33)
Russell-- It doesn't hurt my feelings ... it just raised some questions about your character in my mind.

When someone took you to task for your spelling?  It's ok for Dave to correct spelling and grammar,  But if anyone else does it, its a character flaw?

And uhhh, Tyre.

Date: 2007/11/06 22:15:05, Link
Author: Seven Popes
An excellent chance to prove that, because they have statistically the lowest incidences of aids, lesbians MUST be gods chosen people.   And that all sex must be lesbian.

Date: 2009/08/18 01:05:11, Link
Author: Seven Popes
Quote (k.e.. @ Aug. 17 2009,23:18)
Quote (khan @ Aug. 17 2009,23:37)
 
Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 17 2009,16:30)
Isn't transfusing blood cannibalism, or something? i forget.

OT forbids eating blood.

Isn't that just code for no oral sex?

Bloody oral sex?!
Ur doin it wrong.
:D

Date: 2010/10/07 18:15:35, Link
Author: Seven Popes
http://www.reddit.com/r....fidence
Behes son outs himself as an athiest?

 

 

 

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