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Date: 2005/12/18 10:00:58, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I too thought that the 'Police involvement' speculation was unwarranted without any evidence, and in a sense was stooping to the same level as the right-wing commentators  Gary Hurd was criticising. Not to say that it is unbelievable of course, just that there was no real evidence - I don't see how you can go from some black eyes in a photo to police involvement in one move. I have been beaten up and suffered similar injuries to Mirecke - I guess the guy was satisfied with that, or was pulled off by a mate.
It seemed to me that Gary Hurd was so angry he became irrational. To leave the Panda's thumb in a huff, and not to allow comments would seem to underline this.
I hope he can explain and re-consider when he calms down, as I'm sure he's a good contributor. ???
Having said that I think the University's response is absolutely pathetic - has no-one protested?

Date: 2005/12/18 11:35:25, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Ghost of Paley is a barmey old racist and 'White Nationalist' that doesn't deserve the time of day. He is not here to talk about evolution or intelligent design, and in my opinion is ignoring the rules of the board.
Please ignore this troll in future.

Date: 2005/12/18 11:40:37, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Like this Whiter Shade of Paley:

Date: 2005/12/18 11:44:27, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Whiter Shade of Paley a bit lost without the old 'Wizard' and 'Master' then?

Date: 2005/12/18 12:13:21, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Oct. 12 2005,16<!--emo&:0)

Thorough, cogent refutations of Darwinian "science" are not dishonest. They are truthful. As believers in the ninth commandment, both Dembski and I defend truth. What do Darwinians believe in beyond selfish acquisition of power?

I am personally working on a project using information theory to demonstrate the mathematical impossibility of common ancestry in light of data involving intron loss in the white gene of butterfiles and similar organisms. The data has clearly demonstrted intron loss occurs randomly and not in a nested heirarchy as common ancestry predicts. This has been reported in a paper published by Oxford journals--this is the same organization that employs Richard Dawkins, the Pope of Darwinism himself! (Notice that Christians like myself accept data from evolutionary sources, we do not reject their writings on a priori grounds.)

Since you evolutionists have such poor reading comprehension skills, at the bottom is a link to the chart showing the data explicitly.

Now, I hope you evolutionists will start arguing like the scientists you claim to be instead of Sunday morning pundits.


Okay I followed the link - Ghost of Paley is representing research by a "Jaroslaw Krzywinski" as being somehow related to some project of his own. Since Jaroslaw Krzywinski has also published a paper entitled "Evolution of Mitochondrial and Ribosomal Gene Sequences in Anophelinae (Diptera: Culicidae): Implications for
Phylogeny Reconstruction" -which I have read - it is clear that he is an evloutionary biologist, and no supporter of ID or creationism. Ambiguous wording suggests that Ghost of Paley has a paper published by Oxford journals. Nothing could be further from the truth, and shameless of Paley Ghostey to do this as a self-professed "Defender of the Truth".

Why then would his work attract the interest of an old racist like "Ghost of Paley"?

Well if you type "white" and "gene" into Google - then you'll pick up the paper in the top ten replies.

Seems to me that Whitey Paley Ghostey is not really interested in the phylogenetics of Drosophila, but something much darker.

When is your Information Theory paper coming out Whiter Shadey of Paley? - and why do you hide behind that ridiculous avatar??

Date: 2005/12/18 14:06:11, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Oct. 25 2005,14:14)
By the way, while you guys are wallowing in your C-level IQ's, try to appreciate your correspondence with a member of the K community (the Master, the Master^2, and I'll let you take a stab at the third member).

You're no scientist if you don't know what a degree Kelvin is Paley Ghostey - you are more unsuprisingly more familiar with more American uses for the letter K of course. Who is your wizard by the way? Can you spot him by his sublime maths??
At least that explains your quoting of "White Nationalists" in support of your irrelevant rants:

<i>A lost Paley Ghostey</i>

Date: 2005/12/19 22:07:51, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
This from the Witt article:
<quote> Also, Morgan writes it off as an obvious publicity ploy since, supposedly, it was obvious from the start that the OSC had no jurisdiction. However, if you study Sternberg's site, you'll find that the issue of jurisdiction was a complicated one, and the OSC investigator noted that only a recent court ruling that related to the situation clarified that the OSC apparently had no jurisdiction to continue the case. That the OSC was able to investigate as much as they did was, nevertheless, invaluable, for the facts they turned up show quite clearly how some Darwinists treat scientific dissenters when they believe no one is watching.</quote>
... priceless - they were wrong, and it took a court ruling to prove it to them they were wrong, and they can sort of disregard it anyway.
Watch them use this line of reasoning at Dover.

Date: 2005/12/20 15:02:55, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Okay - the paper has dropped to no 12 in the Google list:

but if you're going to find watches and infer God -
then I find this, and along with your glowing citation of 'White Nationalists', your frequent references to Masters and Wizards, and your K^K ref and find someone who's views on racism are at odds with my own.
What's your favourite Beatles Album? the one with 'Happiness is a Warm Gun' on it I bet..

Are we going to see you back at the Panda's Thumb to talk about 'Intelligent Design' Theology: or are afraid of the light?

Date: 2005/12/20 15:20:25, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Can't be arsed .. not that there's a smashing new ruling to read Whiter Shade of Paley..

apart form this fun bit of quote mining which I think sums up the point:

1) my citation of The Color of Crime proves that I agree with Jared Taylor's views; ...nobody can refute it.

Why should IDiots have all the fun.


Date: 2005/12/21 11:07:37, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Well at least we share some musical tastes, although you really should listen to the lyrics and message sometime 'Ghost of Paley'.
I'm retiring for noodlemas now - and having seen the righteous win the 'Dover' case will probably find better things to do in 2006 than tease Ghosteys and trolls.
Have a good Christmas/holiday/solstice or whatever and a Happy new year to one and all including you 'Ghost of Paley' and remember the words of John Lennon:
'God is a concept by which we measure our pain'

Date: 2005/12/21 11:18:21, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
In the spirit of Christmas I'll forgive you barmy old racist: if I'd realised that you thought that the earth was the centre of the universe; and that the world was 6000 years old; I wouldn't have taunted you so much as you are obviously past help.
As my mum used to say 'stop picking your scabs!'
- couldn't have put it better myself.

Date: 2005/12/21 11:26:54, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
The icing on the cake for me was when Judge Jones took a kick at pomo Prof Steve Fuller and his 'ID affirmative action plan'.
Who says you can't fight a war on two fronts and win?
Merry Noodlemas to one and all!!!

Date: 2005/12/23 15:25:49, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
You trying to censor me Paley Ghostey?
and why did you run away from this solid explanation of why I consider you to fit the definition of a racist?

You did ask after all?

If the mods do want to bow down to Paley Ghostey on this one could they inform me too?

Date: 2005/12/23 23:29:10, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. sorry Eric .. since I'm off for a couple of weeks anyway I'll leave Shadey Paley to you - good luck with your questions!

Date: 2005/12/30 13:51:41, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Just because I ridicule you and hold nothing but contempt for your your racist views Whiter Shade of Paley; doesn't really justify your persecution complex old chap!
Cheer up! - perhaps Demski and Behe have got a bombshell piece of research straight from the lab just ready to prove that you and the Bible were right all along....

Wake me up when they're ready.........

Date: 2005/12/30 14:07:11, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Tell me GOP - when you speak 'Japanese' or 'Irish' to your dog, do you speak the actual language? or do you just make a lot of noises that sort of sound as if they are meaningful, and  just bluff your way through?

Rather as you do here with your bizarre 'scientific' theories?

Glad to see you have one friend though - even if even he seems to think you talk nonsense.

Date: 2005/12/31 01:31:47, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. unlike Whiter Shade of Paley - who is still haunting the borders of 'Paley's world' - letting all the Asian Chicks and the 'good' kind of ethnos in and keeping all the other buggers out.
Nothing 'closet' about his racism - he just doesn't recognise it for what it is, and hates people bringing it to your attention.

As for Xian terrorists? - well we've just had a 30 year Catholic vs Protestant terrorist war in Britain. The biggest genocide in Europe since the second world war was of Muslims by Orthodox Christians in Serbia - although as this was secretly sanctioned by the state you might argue as to whether this was terrorism or just policy.
If you add the numbers up I think you find that the Christians turn out to be the winners in the terrorism stakes, closely followed by the Israelis.

Date: 2006/01/01 04:13:07, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Didn't the White South Africans also have a nice Dutch Baptist Church that held that Whites were naturally superior to Blacks ( something to do with Noah being found drunk and naked by his son - then getting angry and  putting a curse on the ' sons of Ham' I believe) - exactly the same set of beliefs that allowed White Americans from the Southern states to justify slavery.

The Dutch Reformed Church and Apartheid

They weren't keen on teaching evolution either:

Reclaiming humanity's past

Bringing South Africa’s ancient wonders to light didn’t always receive such encouragement. During the apartheid era, “I received absolutely no financial support from the government” for excavations, says Tobias. Strongly influenced by the conservative Dutch Reform Church, the apartheid government was loath to fund research on evolution“that contradicted the Bible,” he says. Moreover, Tobias and other researchers were often cut off from their colleagues overseas by the antiapartheid movement’s academic boycott. This made it “often impossible to attend conferences or to publish in many journals.” Perhaps no one has a better perspective on how things have changed here than Poppenpoel. In 1962, at the age of 17, Poppenpoel entered the field of archaeology at the only level allowed to blacks under apartheid: as a laborer. He was hired by Barbara Anthony, an archaeologist now retired from Harvard University. As they excavated a remote Stone Age site in the Western Cape province, “she continuously fed me with information and books,” Poppenpoel recalls, and within a year he “fell in love with archaeology.” After the dig, Anthony brought Poppenpoel to the South African Museum in Cape Town, where he helped her sort and analyze artifacts. One day at the museum he was approached by Raymond Inskeep, a renowned UCT archaeologist, who later moved to the University of Oxford, U.K. “He asked me if I’d like to go to the University of Cape Town to study archaeology.”

... see all the trouble it causes when you let those liberal nigger-lovers let them buggers out of the ditches where they belong!

I'm sure Whiter Shade of Paley would thoroughly approve of the old 'Dutch Reformed Church'. Shame White South Africa apartheid went down the plughole really - otherwise Paley's land could open an embassy there. That old Dutch Church is still going though so I guess Paley can still get down on his knees and pray to the same big old cloud fairy as them.

Date: 2006/01/01 04:55:17, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
GOP would like to bring Apartheid  to America which of course would solve all these 'problems' at a stroke.

Date: 2006/01/01 05:15:21, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. sorry to bring this thread back on-topic but did anyone else notice that the 'Uri Geller of information theory' has just done a disappearing trick?
After the Dover trial (which the IDiots lost by the way) he's abandoned his blog 'Uncommon descent' - which is a shame for his fawning fan club as they won't be able to indulge in mutual masturbation any more.

Date: 2006/01/02 12:03:20, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Welcome to all those visitors to the Panda's Thumb, such as Larry, the Ghost of Paley and others, who regularly get critcised, and even called 'trolls' by cruel people like Lenny Flank, Sir Toejam and myself.
So as not to annoy those who wish to remain on topic - lets make this our playground to discuss White Nationalism, Holocaust Revisionism, Geocentrism, Meteor Showers or whatever..
Perhaps you'd like to start Larry - what exactly is the difference between Holocaust revisionism and Holocaust denial? Aren't you just denying that it wasn't quite as bad as it's made out to be? -  and isn't that denial? - and what is your interest in the subject exactly?

Date: 2006/01/02 12:08:11, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. and GOP - I didn't think your quoting of 'White Nationalists' in favour of the argument that 'You have to have faith to be moral' did you any favours. I quoted a paper that showed less criminality, abortion and sexually transmitted disease in countries that are less religious than yours. You seem to want to make a special case of the USA on the basis that it has a lot of black people in it, regardless of whether they are religious or not.
I don't see the relevance of the 'race card' here - and if you are saying that race is the prime determinant of morality rather than religious faith - I assume that you have abandoned the original argument then?

Date: 2006/01/02 12:19:50, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
- I think you got you answer Shadey Paley - but if you want more - my response is over here:

Welcome to Na-na-ia!

I've even invited a playmate for you!

You might want to check out the 'This is what happens when things are fairly presented thread' - I'll be waiting in Na-na-ia if you want to reply.

Date: 2006/01/04 11:23:05, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
If Jared's statistics are flawed, blame the U.S. Department of Justice

- there you go Paley.. mixing up data and statistics.

Anyway I stand by my assertion that you're a racist.

You meet the OED definition of a racist because of your clear statements that you would discriminate on grounds of race ( in the case of immigration to the US for example).

You ran away from that challenge on the 'Pandas' site - so there it stands, unrefuted, and unrefutable - unless you are prepared to withdraw all the racist statements you have made?

By the way - I'm not responsible for your 'Jim Crow Laws' affirmitive action or anything else - I'm a Brit remember.
If your jokes about the 'K^K' and 'wizards and masters' backfire on you - I'm not to blame.

You should be more embarrassed by the fact that you pretend to be a scientist yet you clearly didn't know what a 'degree Kelvin' was.

Maybe you are less extreme than those guys but you're certainly playing in the same ballpark - don't play with that stuff if you don't want to get dirty.

Date: 2006/01/04 12:43:22, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Cheers Sir ToeJam!

Interesting stuff over at the PT thread - but I think we need to re-define the topic somehow?

Perhaps Flint could do it if he joins us??

Date: 2006/01/04 13:54:57, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Funny co-incidence - I watched 'One day in Paris' today and she certainly passed on some added value to me - although it didn't cost me a penny as I ripped off the bittorrent.

Money isn't everything as they say.

Date: 2006/01/05 00:37:06, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Welcome guys! - Actually I set up this thread to see if I could get Whiter Shade of Paley and Larry Farfaroutman talking to himself - seems he doesn't want to play.

Loved the creatures Flint - Pengdog my favourite I think.

If you want some more creature humour try this guys strips...
Partially Clips

Date: 2006/01/05 05:27:10, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
1) Living organisms arose from non-living matter by a purely natural mechanism that is well understood.

'2' - On the basis of our current understanding of abiogenesis - however at the rate of progress that is being made, I'd fully expect that my answer would be '5' - I doubt that theoretically the score we could ever do much better than that - we might find a mechanism for abiogenesis; however it might not be the one that actually occurred - this is almost as much a matter of history as of science.

2) All organisms alive today share common ancestry at some time in the remote past.

'7' without exception, whether we look at the fossil record or living creatures - we find evidence for this explanation and no other.

3) All organisms alive today reached their modern form as a result of mechanisms that are well understood by science (e.g., mutation, natural selection, drift, and the other elements in the modern theory of evolution).

'7' details and new questions and lines of research are being worked out all the time - but in principle the main mechanisms are well-understood.

4) Supernatural intervention has played no role in the development of living organisms as we see them today.

'7' from a scientific point of view - Anything - including the Flying Spaghetti Monster is possible outside science; but we find no scientific evidence that requires supernatural explanation.

5) Supernatural forces are not required to account for the development of living organisms as we see them today.

'7' as above

6) Human beings are related to other species.

'7' yes - and even better the sequencing of genomes shows pecisely to what degree to any other individual or species.

7) The physical form and behavior of human beings have been shaped by natural selection.

'7' - but a wooly 'double question'. Especially the use of the words 'behaviour and shaped. 'Shaped' for sure - but not completely controlled to the extent that we are slaves to our genes and have no free will.

8) Supernatural intervention played no role in the rise of human consciousness and culture, including moral and religious impulses.

Science doesn't study the supernatural - so this is not a 'scientific' question - but to the extent that science provides a clear pathway by which these things can evolve without the requirement of supernatural intervention '7'.

9) Supernatural forces are not required to account for human consciousness and culture, including moral and religious impulses.

'as above' '7'

10) Natural selection is responsible for the rise of human consciousness and culture, including moral and religious impulses.
- Another multiple question (at least 4!)-
'5' ( an average for the four questions {6,4,6,3)  Human consciousness  allows developments beyond that  of evolution by natural selection. Our own ability to use foresight,Intelligence and Design  - and to gather information about the world which allow us to make moral choices - is a new development which we are only beginning to understand. Philosophy is probably the field that best addresses this - not science. However Natural Selection was a pre-requisite to make this development possible. Natural Selection is very likely to have a hand in developing the alruistic mechanisms that allow us to live as social animals. The proposal that natural selection is responsible for the development of religion seems to be a poorly supported hypothesis at the moment. The development of consciousness itself would seem to me to lead to the asking of 'religious' (and scientific) questions

Dean Morrison

I agree with the points made by the previous contributers regarding the wooliness of some of the questions. However I have tried to give a fair scoring based on the meaning I guess  your students will attribute to the scores.
Science doesn't address supernatural questions - you should really open up this topic as part of your course.
I have the save problems as some of the others about what I see as a potential over-extension of evolutionary theory to account for our modern social behaviour - this does grab a lot of headlines but is less well founded than other aspects of evolutionary biology.

I would recommend your students watch the excellent talk that Ken Millar gave on the subject this week at Case West University:


He's a practicing Christian by the way - and the author of 'Finding Darwin's God'

Date: 2006/01/05 06:43:37, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. seems like I was right to suggest this side thread - and that you wanted to push your particular 'school of economic thought Flint'.

Yes, I think that sounds about right. In economic terms, I think we could say that *someone* earned the money by making a genuine contribution valued highly by the market. Fortunes can certainly take generations of heirs not doing much productively before dissipating.

So what was it all these Russian billionaires did over the last few years to make them so rich Flint? Hasn't your country gone through a similar history of vast fortunes gained by dubious means? .. and once these fortunes are in place - aren't they self-perpetuating regardless of any added value that the current owners might give to them?

I think game theory is far superior as a model of how society works with money rather than economics. Think motivation?
As a rich man with rich friends do you think that George W Bush was being entirely altruistic by suggesting tax cuts for the rich? some conflict of interest surely? no possiblility that he was using his power to re-inforce a monopoply position? And even in a democracy votes can be manipulated if you throw enough money at the 'problem'.

I found a passage by Matt Ridley (next best British populariser of Evolutionary Biology) in the 'Origins of Virtue' which suggests that even slime moulds employ 'taxation' and 'public goods'. I'll post it a bit later when I get a chance..

Date: 2006/01/05 08:12:08, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Now which economic model are these little critters following?:

(From 'The Origins of Virtue'  - Matt Ridley 1996) chap1 Pg 27

" In the slime mould, the confederation of amoebae that comes together to build a stalk from which to launch spores, there is a classic conflict of interest. Up to a third of the ameobae will have to make the stalk, as opposed to spores  and will die.
An amoeba that avoids being in the stalk therefore thrives at the expense of a more public spirited colleague, and leaves more of its selfish genes behind. How does the confederation persuade the amoebae to do their stalk duty and die? Often the amoebae that come together to make a stalk are from different clones, so nepotism is  not the only answer. Selfish Clones might still prevail.
The question turns out to be a familiar one for economists. The stalk is a public good, provided for out of taxation - like a road. The spores are private profits that can be made from using the road. The clones are like different firms who are facing the decision of facing the decision of how much tax to pay for the road. The ''law of equalisation of net incomes' says that, knowing how many clones are contributing to the stalk, each clone should reach the same conclusion about how much to allocate to the spores (the net income). The rest should be paid in stalk (tax). It is a game in which cheating is supressed, though precisely how is not yet clear.

{He then goes on...}

In human beings, too, there is always conflict between the selfish individual and the greater good. Indeed so pervasive is this tendancy that a whole theory of political science has come to be based on it.........

Ridley seems to get his info on slime moulds from this paper:

Matsuda, H. and Harada, Y. 1990. Evolutionarily stable stalk to spore ratio in cellular slime moulds and the law of equalisation of net incomes.
Journal of Theoretical Biology 147:329-44

Perhaps economists should study slime moulds - no danger of influencing their subjects - or 'insider trading'????

Date: 2006/01/05 08:38:38, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Am I wrong in thinking that you more or less hold to a 'laissez faire' school of economic thought Flint?

You seem to be making the argument that this school is supported by mathmatical 'proofs' and is not therefore open to question.
I'd say there are economic 'truths' involved, and study of economic dynamics should inform our fiscal policies. However it seems to me that your view requires some underlying assumptions that are contentious. The existance, efficiancy and even desireablity of a 'free markets' being just some of them for example.
Your assertions about Wal-Mart for example - depend on them functioning in a free market. If they are extremely dominant in one area then they are likely to be able to develop monopoly powers - undesireable from any point of view.
The only corrective force available to the population is democracy. However in the USA - with no limits on campaign financing then rich corporations have the means to manipulate the popular vote to see that this doesn't happen.
Democracy, after briefly flourishing in Russia, has now succumbed to the same process. The pressure from the West to adopt the 'free market' and privatisation has effectively delivered the wealth of the country into the hands of a few crooked individuals who now control the state.
Economics, in the form of the study of systems - is of course fairly neutral (althought we all have 'Point of View' of course) - economic 'schools of thought' that are pushed politically are not.
You're entitled to your views, and you will find that I share many of them.
However I don't think that either of us should pretend that our 'economic views' are either 'entirely neutral' - or free from value judgements.

Date: 2006/01/05 08:54:28, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Of course, the amoebae didn't apply differential calculus to find this mix. Most likely, they used trial and error. Those who most nearly approximated the maximum did the best job of reproducing.

A bit more complex, weird and wonderful than that I'm afraid. Not just of tending toward the optimal solution on a graph - that would be an everyday example of evolution.

Slime moulds are single-celled organisms that live in colonies. The colonies that were studied were not mono-clonal If a single clone out-competed it's peers (which is what you'd expect) then all slime mould colonies should be mono-clonal. Each clone 'wants' to be making the spores not the stalk. In the end they all end up contributing the same proportion of 'tax' for the same 'benefit' - presumably in relation to their prevelance in the colony ('capital?) The very fact that we find multi-clonal colonies means there must be some undetected (at the time that that was written) form of 'policing' or at least some reason to believe that the other clones won't 'cheat'.
The passage suggests the the slime moulds can even detect how many clones there are in the colony (in order to work out it's allocation of resources).
Remarkable for a single-celled organism don't you think?
.. but then .. slime moulds are just weird.... :0

Date: 2006/01/05 10:08:49, Link
Author: Dean Morrison

You do hold  a 'laissez faire' position then, although you will allow for a certain amount of regulation - glad we cleared that up. (Perfectly respectable point of view of course - but not the only one) I was right to point out that you were introducing a 'particular economic point of view' into the Panda's thread.

The 'floating boats' analogy is of course a politically motivated one, just as much as 'trickle down'. What does the water represent in either system? or the size of the boats? or the size of the glasses? what is important the water level, or tide level? A nice image to sell to the masses, but not one that demonstrates an economic insight.

As I agreed Economics can be used as a tool of analysis. However promulagating an economic school of thought, as if it is a neccessary consequence of economic analysis; is overstretching. I said you seemed to be arguing your ideas with the certainty of mathematic proof - and you said you felt like you were trying to explain addition to me. Speaks for itself.

As for 'free markets' I noticed you ducked the potential challenge to 'efficiency'. If you accept that there  are situations where free markets are not 'efficient' -  then does impact on their desireabilty. We can make choices about how we let markets operate - we don't have to to let them operate freely from some 'higher principle'. A contentious area perhaps - but the mere existance of the contention means you shouldn't state your ideas with the confidence of a 'mathematical proof'

As for Wal-mart - I wasn't expressing moralistic concerns - other than saying the tendancy to monopoly is undesireable and to be resisted - something you agree with. As a UK citizen I don't remember the other company you were talking about (and we don't have Wal-mart - although we have it's subsidary - ASDA). I do understand that in the early part of the last century your country had to instigate a number of 'anti-trust' laws to try to control development of monopoly powers. These always seem to have been implemented after things got out of hand. I would hazard a guess that we are seeing the same process happen again with major retailers both in the US and the UK.

By corrective, I meant 'corrective' to challenging monopoly power - something you agreed yourself was undesireable.
If money doesn't influence votes that much - why do your guys spend increasing amounts at each election? ..and after all, just a few votes can swing things either way.

I'm not sure about your 'party that is less favourable to corporations' winning less than half the time? I would have thought that both your parties were favourable to corporations - just different ones. If you had had a social democratic party that was elected once then you might have a starting point - I suppose F.D.Roosevelt was the nearest you came?

And finally!!!  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D

<quote>In my observation (personal opinion only here), any market requires some regulation. What causes markets to grow, and middle classes to emerge, and national wealth to accumulate, is *competition*, not necessarily "freedom." So my personaly opinion is that a nation is best off (in terms of both per capita wealth and equitable distribution of that wealth) if freedom is restricted so as to guarantee competition.

Back to economics as a tool, it says nothing about whether monopolies are good or bad. Economics makes no moral judgment. It's a way to analyze economic consequences of policies.

However I don't think that either of us should pretend that our 'economic views' are either 'entirely neutral' - or free from value judgements.

No, but perhaps not the kind of value judgment you are stuck in. I find the Keynesian approach more comprehensible than the Austrian approach, and I think the monetarists have things backwards.[/quote]

.. on which I am entirely in agreement with you :)  :)  :)  :)  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D

at which point I'll quit whilst we're both ahead, both our boats have been floated - and now I'll trickle down to the pub next door as it's getting late here in blighty.

Been nice sparring with you - look forward to seeing you again the next time a troll pops up :D

Date: 2006/01/05 11:07:34, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
 You meet the OED definition of a racist because of your clear statements that you would discriminate on grounds of race ( in the case of immigration to the US for example).

Ummm, Yenta, Northeast Asians are not a race, the Jews are not a race, East Indians are not a race: they are ethnic groups, and each group is concentrated in a particular nation: China, Japan, Korea, India, Israel. If I wanted to use racial classifications, I would have used the terms "Asian" and "Caucasian". Yet I avoided the broader racial categories, choosing to focus on nationalities instead. Why? Because each of these groups assimilate into Western society. Many of their racial cohorts do not.

.. by your logic you couldn't accuse the Nazis of 'racial discrimination' then - after all the Jews aren't a 'race' - they're an 'ethnic group'.

I suppose you're the kind of guy who likes to get the calipers out when he's making his racial judgements -

So you choose to use different labels and boundaries for your 'races' or ethnic groups - makes not a jot of difference. Caucasian in particular is an American construct with about the same validity as Ayran. If you look at DNA everyone outside Africa is just one tribe.

So it's absolutely flippin' crystal clear that you are a racist by your own definition - which is probabably why I scared you away from the Panda's thumb - if not go back and post there and refute what i said. And don't bother trying to 'correct' your posts here - I've saved a copy.

You accuse me of lying - then give a link to the whole thread - could you be a tiny bit more specific??

From the room temp IQ thread ...

By the way, while you guys are wallowing in your C-level IQ's, try to appreciate your correspondence with a member of the K community (the Master, the Master^2, and I'll let you take a stab at the third member).

'KKK' Larry ???

Date: 2006/01/05 11:57:01, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
If you accept that there  are situations where free markets are not 'efficient' -  then does impact on their desireabilty.

I can't parse this. Efficiency can be defined fairly rigorously, while desireability is something totally unrelated. So I don't know what you're trying to say.

A contentious area perhaps - but the mere existance of the contention means you shouldn't state your ideas with the confidence of a 'mathematical proof'

I remain baffled by this. Where have I done so? Imagine if I kept saying that you should write in English and not keep writing in French. You might wonder after a while...

I thought you might understand the specific meaning of 'efficiency' as it is applied to 'free markets' - and the 'neo-Keynsian' critique that has been applied using this meaning for the last twenty years - but I guess you don't get exposed to those ideas over there?

Ah well - 'two nations seperated by a common language' - c'est la vie.. ;D

Date: 2006/01/06 07:11:15, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Paley you're a racist - your own words prove it.

I've noticed the way you go back to edit your own posts when your foolishness has been pointed out.

Look at the dates of my posts on Panda's thumb mate - you ran away for a whole week - I posted three times before you came back with one of your obscure insults. I the end I gave up on you - the thread was only dead because you were scared away.

You can't change my posts there old chum - the record is clear for all to see.

I think I have been pretty clear with my allegations Paley:

Based on your posts at the Panda's Thumb, and here,
you are a racist - plain and simple.

You might want to rationalise that you aren't on the basis that you would discriminate by 'ethnic group' rather than 'race'  - and that only make you a 'twit' and a racist.

Paley - you said that the 'Wizards and Masters reference was from the 'Princess Bride' - since I've never read it ( isn't it a little girls book?) - I took your word for it. Don't pretend that I have a clue what you're on about.

You still haven't expained the KKK or KKKK reference - what was all that about?

Seems an odd coincidence to me that a self-avowed racist should reference from 'White Nationalists' - and then talk about 'Wizards and Masters' - and KK or KKK or KKKK for some as yet unexplained reason - purely by accident?

I think you thought it was clever to make a smug coded reference - and you got caught out.

I frankly don't care about American Liberals, the obscure commentators you quote - or what a 'Yenta' is - (you still haven't told me).

I am pleased to have run one 'Good Old Boy' redneck racist out of town!

You post as 'Ghost of Paley' on the PT again -and all I have to do is point here - or to the PT thread.

So you'll have to think up a new alter ego now chum - and as soon as you start spouting the same old nonsense - I'll run you out of town again - your daft racist and astronomical views are absolutely trademark - as is your pretending to be a 'self-taught' expert on matters where you are essentially clueless ( a tip mate - get a better teacher).

There are other little 'giveaways' you have - but I'll let you try to work out what those are...

So bugger off to 'Paleys World' - or why not try 'Unearthly Descent' - I hear the living dead walk the earth there -

- see you back in your next re-incarnation on Panda's Thumb.

You racist.

Date: 2006/01/06 08:29:23, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
What are your views on meteor showers (snigger) 'Paley' (snigger)?


Date: 2006/01/06 09:39:12, Link
Author: Dean Morrison

.. can't wait till the perjury trials!

(or were they over so quick I missed them)

... but even these guys duck those - what are they going to say to their 'Intelligent  designer' on Judgement day?

Scene: Bonsall at the pearly gates......

Yeh well like I was lyning for you boss.. so that's okay ain't it boss? boss?  boss??

.. what do you he says I gotta burn in #### with all them darn atheists???



Date: 2006/01/06 12:47:35, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
<quote>Problem: the reference assumes a Fahrenheit temperature scale, as the equivalent Celcius measure - around 24 Degrees - would be too low, while the Kelvin temperature - 297 degrees - is way too high. MidnightVoice pointed out the ambiguity, and I took an opportunity to praise The Master, the Wizard (whom I referred to as Master^2), and.......myself. The K's indicate stratospheric IQs; the C's, evo IQs. And that's all there is to it. If I had praised anyone else up to that point, I would have included them; but I hadn't, so I didn't.</quote>

Oh pleeeaaaseee.....

Okay hold that ..

you're not a 'racist'

... you're a pathetic racist......

Celsius by the way Paley - Celsius ..

and don't pretend it's an American spelling - it's a blokes name...


Date: 2006/01/06 14:34:28, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
'Laissez -faire'? - let me take that back -

a better characterisation of the particular economic school of thought I was criticising would be :

'Shit happens' (shrugs shoulders) - deal with it.

I don't think this school of thought arises as a neccessity from the study of economic theory - it's a unsupported overextension, and it's fatalistic nature doesn't encourage further critical study.

Reminds me of ID a bit....

However - Flint does have a lot of valid points, and speaks a lot of sense a lot of the time - I just don't think it speaks to the issue ( although I can't remember exactly what that was now - started off with Tara talking to he girlfriends over coffee - her own blog has lots more on-comment posts and some new trolls BTW)

Having enjoyed this interesting diversion I'm off to the Thumb, or elsewhere here to taunt Larry/Paley, so thanks to you all - but especially you Flint.

See you around....


Date: 2006/01/07 10:00:31, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I'll happily check your paper for spelling and English , Paley - but if you want it peer-reviewed you'd better find a moron like Larry.
I assume that won't be so hard to do?

Date: 2006/01/08 10:44:06, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Yeah ... well all you trolls look the same to me...

Ken Millar is a real person that doesn't need to hide behind an Avatar - I don't think he regards ghosts as his peers - you're better off sticking with Larry.

Well done for spelling all the words correctly in your last post by the way...

Date: 2006/01/08 11:05:18, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
You'll note that 'Ghost of Paley doesn't claim to be a scientist, and hides behind an avatar Professer.

Although he does seem to be suffering from the delusion that he's going to win the Nobel and fields prizes.

You should report his opinions to your students, along with his views on race:

and the moon landings and the position of the earth in the universe:

Wow, you guys really like to poison the well, dontcha? I assure you that my ideas are mine alone. No cribbing off ARN, kibitzing at I.D. conferences, or piloting black helicopters. Just a David armed with the slingshot of Truth, with a smattering of Dembski's sublime maths. As for my beliefs, I pretty much see it as the Bible calls it: geocentric special creation. None of that cheap Hollywood special effects for me - man on the moon my arse!

from page 5 of:;st=40

Date: 2006/01/09 04:08:26, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Flint.. seems like you have made a very good case for spending taxpayers money on preventative medicine: as the cost-benefit ratio is so favourable - and not leaving it to the 'free' market as you originally advocated.
Winners all round and lots of floating boats.

Date: 2006/01/09 07:35:15, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Flint: you may not have noticed the use of the word 'preventative' - the word that was carefully used when the issuse of healthcare was originally brought up.

2) I did not make a case for spending taxpayer money on medical care. Making such a case would *necessarily* require that I specificy and justify what I would want LESS of, in order to get MORE medical care. Remember, recommending goodies for everyone is what politicians do. Economists must recognize that there are only so many goodies available, not nearly enough to go around, and that if we increase medical goodies, we must *decrease* something else. Politicians never say what we should have LESS of.

Palliative medicine is, as we all agree, very expensive. Expenditure by society now on inexpensive preventative medicine is a worthwhile expenditure as it reduces future costs. The market is one way of allocating resources; but not the only one; and as it is no more able to excercise foresight than 'Natural Selection' - it is not neccesarily the most efficient one (Note that this is the use of the word 'efficient' in the sense that economists apply it to markets, and to which I alluded earlier).

Preventative medicine applied to communicable diseases should make the point even clearer to you. Market economics would never have been able to eradicate Smallpox. We are all benefitting economically (and medically) for not having this disease lingering on in the poor of the world. 'Goodies for everyone' as you say.

Date: 2006/01/09 09:00:20, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Expenditure by society now on inexpensive preventative medicine is a worthwhile expenditure as it reduces future costs.

Flint replied: "Worthwhile" is a value judgment. I agree that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If I'm selling prevention, this is my sales pitch. If I'm selling cure, I place my emphasis somewhat differently...

by society Flint - not individuals in a market. The market is blind to these universal benefits. A society might make the value judgement that such a treatment is worthwhile. If you want to sell a new preventative medical treatment to society - then it needs to have the funds to pay you. through taxation.


it is no more able to excercise foresight than 'Natural Selection'

Flint replied: "The market" in this sense shouldn't be anthropomorphized. The market is an emergent result of zillions of discrete individuals making autonomous economic transations. To a very real extent, people make these transactions in anticipation of future trends and/or events. It would be quite accurate to say that "the market" is exercising foresight to the degree that the individual actors are doing so.

'anthropomorhized'? - where is the human hand in 'Natural Selection' Flint? If anything you could accuse me of anthromorphizing 'Natural Selection' by making an analogy with ' the market'.
To the degree that the motivations and foresight of individual actors in a market might not allocate resources in an optimal way; even for an individual actor; then markets may be 'inefficient' (I'm not saying most are - just that this can happen). At which point it is legitimate for a government to step in and allocate some of societies resources to an issue for the common good.

Preventative medicine applied to communicable diseases should make the point even clearer to you. Market economics would never have been able to eradicate Smallpox.

Flint replied: I don't know. I can tell you that my community offers vaccinations - through my doctor, my employer, or whatever. For a fee, I can purchase preventive medicine. Legally coercing people to be vaccinated isn't a market mechanism, though, I agree...

There is a concept in epidemiology of 'herd immunity' - think of it as being worth your while to immunise someone else so they don't infect you. We can't rely on noble-spirited people to do this because others will be 'market-driven' to cheat, and not contribute (or bother to get themselves immunised if herd immunity starts to take effect).
To ensure no-one cheats we institute universal taxation for public goods.

Yes we do indulge in community debate on the nature of the community goods we should pay for, and the who should pay how much from them.

A 'Laissez-faire' or 'free market' position is one that says we should minimise spending on community goods and services, and minimize the contribution of the wealthy.

It is not an inevitible conclusion drawn from the study of economics; it is a particular (and 'value-laden' ) viewpoint.

Which is why I objected to you introducing it into  Tara's thread about the intelligence of her friends and their acceptance of evolution.

Date: 2006/01/09 12:21:21, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I' glad we're bringing a few biological analogies into the debate on economics. I think there is some room for 'crossover thinking' although there is also the possibility of overstretching.
As for capitalism/socialism - it really is a continuum. I'm sure that there are libertarians in the states who consider George Bush to be a closet socialist. (After all he's spending a lot of the taxpayer's money - even if it is on war).

It's just that some of us would like a leveler playing field than others...

I'm in my capitalist home but my (mutual) building society own half of it.


Date: 2006/01/09 13:41:17, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
'Ghost of Paley'
You poisoned your own well a long time ago - I just drew attention to it by quoting your own posts and statements

How does quoting you and coming to a conclusion about your point of view count as lying?

If there are any lurkers out there - please follow the references that Paley gives where he says I am 'lying'.....

...He condemns himself with his own words in them.

My 'threat' was to expose you by drawing attention to posts like these: seems like you're happy to self-destruct by doing it yourself.

Date: 2006/01/09 13:49:39, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Please follow the links where the 'Ghost of Paley' accuses me of lying (I do no such thing of course - Paley has some idea that by giving a reference to such an accusation it may seem that there is some basis for it).

Follow them and make up your own mind about Paley's views on racial discrimination and the moon landings for example:
He simply condemns himself with his own words.

Date: 2006/01/09 13:57:25, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
From now on I'm going to ignore the Yenta's slander

a point of English Paley - that would be libel not slander ...

come back and tell me why when you've looked it up...

there's a good chap..

Date: 2006/01/09 14:09:12, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Quote (Flint @ Jan. 06 2006,17:38)
I wonder what units cleverness is measured in. Wits?

...or half-wits to allow for the likes of Paley

(sorry but I couldn't resist - Flint set it up so someone had to deliver the gag)

Date: 2006/01/09 14:37:15, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
No! No! No! Paley - go to the back of the class!

From the Compact Oxford English Dictionary:

Libel: libel

 • noun 1 Law the publication of a false statement that is damaging to a person’s reputation. Compare with SLANDER. 2 a written defamation.

 • verb (libelled, libelling; US libeled, libeling) Law defame by publishing a libel.

 — DERIVATIVES libellous (US also libelous) adjective.

 — ORIGIN originally denoting a document: from Latin libellus ‘little book’.

now you see it wouldn't be slander Paley - because I wrote it down.

The reason you would have a problem prosecuting a case - even in the UK (where, after all I was sitting when I wrote whatever it was that upset you) - is that I could prove that what I say about you is true - by quoting your own words. (I am aware that our legal codes differ on this matter (yours is often considered to have advantages over ours by legal opinion here) - but this does not change the definition of the word).

You on the other hand would have trouble substantiating your libellous accusation that I have 'lied' about you.

But don't worry Paley old chap - I don't get my knickers in a twist about it - and I'm quite content to see you suffer here.

Date: 2006/01/09 15:02:12, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Selective quotation I see Paley (full quote below) - but doesn't help you much.
I don't know when you became an 'common British person'? - what Wikipedia doesn't really explain that mixing up 'Slander' and 'libel' is a common mistake of the uneducated in both countries - rather like mixing up 'lend' and 'borrow'.
Or saying 'I'll learn you a lesson'!
Common maybe - good English? I think not.

An interesting legal point would be that in your case you would accuse me of 'blackening the memory of the dead' as you are a Ghostly entity - something for which we have no provision for in English Law - you can say what you like about someone when they're dead.

Since you hide behind a pseudonym I guess you wouldn't be protected anyway - although it might make for an interesting piece of case law.


Libel and Slander

In English and American law, and systems based on them, libel and slander are two forms of defamation (or defamation of character), which is the tort or delict of publishing (meaning to a third party) a false statement that negatively affects someone's reputation. "Defamation" is the term generally used internationally, and is accordingly used in this article where it is not necessary to distinguish between "libel" and "slander".

Libel and Slander

"Libel", "slander", and "defamation" are commonly used as synonyms in ordinary language, at least in Britain and Ireland. However, those jurisdictions that distinguish "libel" and "slander" as legal concepts do so on the following broad basis: defamatory communication in writing is termed "libel" while one made via the spoken word is termed "slander". However, because the underlying distinction is between permanent and transient communications, some jurisdictions regard all defamatory communications (even spoken statements) broadcast on radio or television as "libel". Both acts share a common legal history, although they may be treated differently under some legal systems. According to the American and English Encyclopedia of Law, a libel is a malicious defamation expressed either by writing or printing or by signs, pictures, effigies or the like; tending to blacken the memory of one who is dead, or to impeach the honesty, integrity, virtue or reputation, or to publish the natural or alleged defects of one who is alive, thereby exposing him to public hatred, contempt, ridicule or obloquy; or to cause him to be avoided or shunned or to injure him in his office, business or occupation.

Do you consider yourself to be some kind of lawyer by the way Paley???

Date: 2006/01/09 15:08:38, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
'out-argued' ? now this really is a dreadful concoction -

My only student is you Paley and I'm afraid I've come to the conclusion you need to drop a class.

see you for school tommorrow - don't be late!

Date: 2006/01/09 15:30:25, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I didn't say that there were such things as bad dialects - I slip between Devonian, Scouse and Scots myself. Which dialect had you decided to start using by the way?

However when I come across a supposedly educated person like yourself it dissapoints me to see you making such an elementary error.

I did offer to correct the English in your 'paper'. Might help if you tell me what dialect you will be writing this in though... Swedish Chef perhaps?

Date: 2006/01/09 15:38:20, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I'm more of a fan of Mrs Henn myself:

.. but luckily for you Paley you're so dumb you need your own private tutor...

(If you think that quoting Chick tracts is going to impress any lurkers then I think you'll find you're mistaken)

Date: 2006/01/10 01:25:49, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Okay - I'll correct your Swedish Chef for you:

Thunks fur zee leenk; I'll hefe-a tu reed it leter. Hurty flurty schnipp schnipp! Vell I'm ooffff noo - hefe-a yuoor vey veet me-a iff yuoo moost. Um de hur de hur de hur. Boot beffure-a tekeeng tuu muny leeberties, joost remember: Yuoor ess is gress und I'm zee levnmooer. Hurty flurty schnipp schnipp!

Although this sounds more authentically you:

Thanks fo' th' link; I'll hafta read it later. Wal ah's off now - haf yer way wif me eff'n yo' muss. But befo'e takin' too menny liberties, jest remember: Yer ass is grass an' ah's th' lawnmower.

rather than this at least:

Danks fo' de link; I'll gots'ta eyeball it later. Ah be baaad... Well I'm off now - gots yo' way wid me if ya' must. Man! But befo'e takin' too many liberties, plum remember, dig dis: Yo' ass be grass and I'm de lawnmower. Ah be baaad...

Well if you ever want to come to England old chum and you want to talk in the vernacular - this is how you'll have to put it when you get to London (heavens forbid! )

Fanks fer the link; I'll 'ave ter read it later. Well I'm orff naw - 'ave yor way wiv me if yer must. But befaw takin' too many liberties, right, just remember: Yor arse is grarse and I'm bloody well the lornmower.

Liberties taken - thanks - you're a good sport to be so willing to be the 'receiver' like this old chum.


Date: 2006/01/10 07:35:34, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I've posted a link to the PT for Ken's talk on UK websites - and will help seed it until no-one is interested anymore.

Actions speak louder than words! insead of chatting here - let's do what we can as individuals to spread the word.

(Bugger - I went all evangelical there for a bit).

Date: 2006/01/10 07:45:54, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Priceless - this means you can booted off Uncommon Descent without going there and risk inflating Bill's sitemeter.

I wonder if I put a post on the 'Pandas' thread and say that I agree with you in every respect - then I can get 'banned' too?

Reminds me of the Simpson's episode where Homer is put in charge of the football team -the episode finishes with Homer repeating 'You're cut'; and you're cut etc.........

Are their no limits to DaveScots' megalomania???

Date: 2006/01/11 07:45:12, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
1) Ghost of Paley:
I am not a racist, so most of his arguments are irrelevant to my political philosophy.

In response to this - a 'content only' reply by myself:

Quote: Dean Morrison
You meet the OED definition of a racist because of your clear statements that you would discriminate on grounds of race ( in the case of immigration to the US for example).

Quote: Ghost of Paley :
Ummm, Yenta, Northeast Asians are not a race, the Jews are not a race, East Indians are not a race: they are ethnic groups, and each group is concentrated in a particular nation: China, Japan, Korea, India, Israel. If I wanted to use racial classifications, I would have used the terms "Asian" and "Caucasian". Yet I avoided the broader racial categories, choosing to focus on nationalities instead. Why? Because each of these groups assimilate into Western society. Many of their racial cohorts do not.

Quote: Dean Morrison
You ran away from that challenge on the 'Pandas' site - so there it stands, unrefuted, and unrefutable - unless you are prepared to withdraw all the racist statements you have made?

Quote: Ghost of Paley:
What racist statements? That some nationalities assimilate better into Western society? That some cultures are not suited to developed societies? If that's racist, then the truth is racist (shrug).

... go figure.

Date: 2006/01/11 08:00:06, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Back for more Paley?

Congratulations! you taught me a new word - 'ebonics' - not one we use over here. Not my interpretation though - go figure - and if you notice it's about fifty years out of date.

Tara's girls sound  waaay out of my league - still - since 'charm' is a concept with which you are evidently unfamiliar then I reckon I'd stand one more cat in 'hades' chance than your sweet self. :D

Date: 2006/01/11 08:04:08, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Your past comments will come back to haunt you 'Ghost' of Paley.

Date: 2006/01/11 12:54:47, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Here we go -

Paley will now seek to justify that because 'affirmitive action' is 'racist' - then his brand of racism is okay. (Only he want call it that - he'll re-define the word race so you have to say 'ethnic-group'-ism or 'culture-that-is-unsuited-to-Western-society-ism)
I refer to my previous posts.

Paley is clearly a racist - yet seems embarrassed by the term.

As I said before - he does not consider the Jews to be a race - therefore the Germans were not 'racist' when they 'discriminated' against them.


Date: 2006/01/11 13:31:09, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Larry - all you succeed in doing is pointing people back to your own posts- which are what I used in the first place to establish my point that you are a racist.

Call me a liar if you wish - I expect no more of you - but let people make up their own minds as to whether I am a 'proven' liar, and you are a racist.

One thing - why would I go to all this trouble to 'lie' about someone by calling them a racist if I thought they weren't?

I think that it's you that has a problem facing the truth Paley.

Date: 2006/01/11 13:38:28, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I wouldn't delete a single word of yours Paley but I bet  you wish you could .

Damned out of your own mouth.

Date: 2006/01/11 22:41:04, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Crikey Paley - it almost sounds like you're talking reasonably..

But I thought you were in favour of Affirmative Action - of the kind Steve Fuller said was required if the 'Intelligent Design Hoax' was ever to get off the ground?

Date: 2006/01/12 12:07:14, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Julie - thats actually interesting - I'm interested in the 'manipulation of host reproduction' and the game theory surrounding this. How host-specific are Wolbachia and is there a scale of host-endosymbiont interdependence between different species?
Any snappy references?

Date: 2006/01/12 12:50:25, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Much as I hate to disagree a tad with my future drinking buddy , Steve, I think we need to look back and take a broader view of 'affirmative action' / 'positive discrimination' in the UK annd the USA.

For a start the level of racial predjudice and discrimination bears no resemblance in the two countries - honestly it doesn't. I've been to the USA and was truly shocked at the level of segregation and disadvantage 'Afro-Americans' suffer, and which is taken for granted by all -and this in 'the land of opportunity'. As a people they have been done a historic injustice - and this wasn't simply 'put right' by Martin Luther King in the sixties.
From Flint's perspective these peoples parents were part of other 'peoples wealth' to be treated as disposable assets just a few generations ago - and the economists of his sort treated this as a 'fact of life' - about which nothing could be done. Heck - they were doing the slaves a favour.
So denied resources, the vote (even in Florida in 2000), education - or even the help of emergency services during a major disaster - the offspring of slaves are supposed to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps whilst they are kept down by the offspring of others that made a pretty penny off their back.

Something should be done to heal that gaping wound that still haunts American society. Affirmative action was one way that was proposed - direct but clumsy - and a likley cause of new injustices. Economic 'restitution' is another that has been proposed - where there would be a literal 'cash transaction from whites to blacks - bonkers really - but in keeping with 'free-market' thinking.
A more obvious one would be massive investment in public services - especially education - for all - thus helping all poorer people, including poor whites and latinos of which there are also many in America. If only George W Bush's rhetoric lived up to reality 'No Child Left Behind' could mean something.
But what does he do? more tax cuts for the super-duper rich buddies of his - and massive public investment in a foreign adventure - where the lives that are given are those of the poor and black, and not those of the children of the rich and powerful.
Despite our similarities Britain is a different society - we are much more equal; and we have a government that is at least trying to advance poorer kids, regardless of race. We have never had an 'affirmative action' policy such as the Americans have - although we have had milder forms such as 'Women only shortlists' for women labour MP's - a policy that (although there were protests at the time) has seen to be hugely successful in addressing the gender imbalance in parliament - so successful in fact that the Tories are about to introduce their own version of it.

'Affirmative action' was one of the few actions that were taken by the American government to address the huge difference in opportunity experienced by Whites and other races in the USA. Probably because it was cheap, and the costs weren't borne by central government. Racists like Paley would deny them even that, and economic 'liberals' like Flint would deny them any other kind of help.

They'd be happy to come back in five hundred years and see no change. In fact 'Paley' would predict it as 'certain cultures aren't suited to 'Western society'.

I have something else to say about the Asian Doctor thing - but I'll save that for the pub Steve  

Date: 2006/01/12 13:03:54, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Okay - we know you dig Asian chicks Paley, but wouldn't you prefer a good old Americun' Christyun girl from Texas?

I would.

Date: 2006/01/12 13:12:54, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Oh and Flint ... by far the biggest landowners in the UK (who also have masses of dosh stacked up in the 'City';) are the 'Aristocracy'.
Who are the 'Aristocracy'? - the descendents of the 'Normans' and their allies that invaded this country 950 years ago and took the land and property from the Saxon and Celtic locals.
They even have their own chamber of governmernt 'The House of Lords'.

And you are dissapointed that the descendants of slaves haven't scrambled onto an equal footing with 'White America' in 150 years?

- don't make me laugh!

Date: 2006/01/13 00:24:26, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Wow Julie,

the cool thing about that stuff is that it can be used to make a whole raft of evolutionary predictions that can be tested.
I'm a long way from a decent library, but I'll check out the paper when I can.

Your enthusiasm for the subject shines through - isn't nature great? (although not wonderful from the point of view of an infected organism).

I agree with Alan- this deserves a guest contribution on PT.

Date: 2006/01/13 00:29:29, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Seems that there is a new field 'Bioeconomics' which results from the crossover of economic theory and evolutionary biology.

I wonder if it'll ever get to the point where a new economic policy can be tested out on the lab bench?

Date: 2006/01/13 00:38:49, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Sorry Flint - I did misunderstand what you said -

The stuff about the British Aristocracy is true though :)

Date: 2006/01/13 11:57:07, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Imagine a summers afternoon...

I have some guests....

All sorts of guests....

we all have our 'own' views .. but it's my party...

Tea, and cakes, and blissful late summer sunshine..

Blokes chatting, ladies talking, children playing....

Someone has 'provided' wonderful 'nibbles' - and the 'blokes ' know that later - they can go to the pub for a 'chat with the vicar'.

The Ladies laugh....

... all welcome;

anyone fancy a nice place where we can can 'listen' to those whose views we would otherwise mock?

All welcome - but no ruffians..

Any takers?

Carol? David? Larry? Ghost?

Date: 2006/01/13 14:33:30, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Sorry.. I don't seem to get quite the same problem..

but more interesting as I look into it:

some other stuff 'seems it was defined as a concept in '79'

.. failing that 'google' for it...

Role of culture and meaning in rational choice

or Flint will like this one... ( the guy was from Chicago)

1979 Bioeconomics

or apply economics to fisheries. and then wonder where all the fish have gone????

Lobster Bioeconomics

seems like 'Bioeconomics' started by applying 'sociobiology' to 'human economics; which seems self- fulfilling to me.

I'm interested in the 'meta- mathematics' that, ecological, and financial, systems share....

Date: 2006/01/13 14:54:26, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
We still have a thriving little fishing community right here on the English channel.

A lot to do with all the wrecks and unexploded ordanance still lying around after a couple of World Wars, and the natural effects of being the busiest shipping lane in the world with a huge tidal range and a tempremental climate.

Favours the small boats and the fish - the big boats lose all their tackle.

Secondary income from **uggling of course - 'but if I told you I'd have to kill you'

Lesson is ?

Date: 2006/01/14 04:32:49, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Do come in old chap - cup of tea? cucumber sandwich?

Date: 2006/01/14 05:07:26, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
... and all the ladies in their floral frocks....

Date: 2006/01/14 06:40:11, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I'm sure the Reverend will pour you a glass of sherry if you ask nicely - Pimms later perhaps??

Date: 2006/01/14 09:01:17, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
anyone for croquet?

Date: 2006/01/14 12:31:05, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
'Herbal cigarettes' Mr Fox? - don't mind if I do...

Date: 2006/01/14 12:35:08, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Aren't Leatherback turtles 'warm blooded' also? They occasionally stray into cool British waters....

Date: 2006/01/14 13:10:10, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I would say so Caledonian...

Date: 2006/01/15 12:32:10, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
... depends what you want to believe Paley. In my opinion you've already made your mind up.

Date: 2006/01/15 12:58:20, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Jan. 14 2006,15:55)
See part one of my response to Mr. Brazeau.

.. checked this out - seems that the scientists working in that field have noticed your propensity to cut and paste stuff you don't understand, and/or have never read.

The 'papers' you work on seem to consist of whatever you can find that you think might be contentious; then cutting and pasting in a scattergun approach, in the hope that people might take you seriously.

You really are a transparent Ghost Paley.

Date: 2006/01/15 13:05:07, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Just thought I'd let you chaps and chappesses know that the first of nine episodes of 'Ripping Yarns' is to be screened on BBC4 this Thursday at 8.30.

In the United Kingdom of course - am afraid our American cousins will have to check out the DVD on amazon.

More tea anyone?

Date: 2006/01/15 14:33:49, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Hi Steve,

tickets in the post (to me) old boy - thought I sent an e-mail to all to confirm? Mind you some of my e-mails have gone astray of late -

The blacksmith is dishing out his 'dead dog scrumpy' in the summer house I hear.....

Date: 2006/01/16 03:20:59, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
No thats' Prof Dawkins with his supermodel wife..

( OT - Another Dawkins webcast for 'Darwin day':

'Is evolution predictable':

.. also mentions that the local brewery is producing 'Evolution Ale' to mark the occasion!;)

I hear the Boy Scouts have just come back from that 'Fungus Foray' they went on last Autumn - they seem to have developed a new language on their trip..

Well boys will be boys.. youngsters eh?

Date: 2006/01/16 04:47:52, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
What bothers me is, IF you are right that it takes more than 2 generations to bounce back from adversity, why have all of the other immigration waves done so as easily as they have? ALL of them faced severe discrimination, most of them didn't speak the language, most of them were dirt poor, few of them had any formal education, and at least in the case of the Jews, discrimination remains virulent.

Since when was slavery an 'immigration wave'?

.. and the idea that they were all dirt poor and uneducated deserves some investigation - My fathers ancestors were Irish - they got as far as Liverpool and stayed - not everyone could afford the boat to the USA. Immigrants at least had the wealth to do that. Many headed for the thriving industrial economies of the North - or to steal land from native Americans in the West. The Slaves were stuck in the Southern states, where the only economy to speak of had been built on their slavery - and where shortly after the civil war new legislation was put in by the States to specifically discrimnate against them.
I can recall the battle for civil rights in my lifetime.

"Two generations to bounce back from adversity?"

Don't make me laugh Flint - there hasn't been a generation of Black people in the States that have lived without institutional adversity directed squarely at them. After Katrina I don't see that much has changed today - and it's clear that you and Paley are happy to keep things that way.

I'm sorry to say you have gone down in my estimation Flint - you should be worried that you are so happy to be on Paley's side of the argument.

Date: 2006/01/16 04:54:15, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
James Randi has also noticed that the ID is a bit mysterious when it comes to 'his ways' - lucky we've got Pat Robinson to explain to us what's on his mind....

Date: 2006/01/16 06:47:04, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Flint - either you are quite inscrutable to me, or I have real big problems understanding you.

Or you want to waste time speculating on why African Americans don't (on the whole) seem to benefit from your 'free market thinking' to the same extent as other groups in the US.

Persisting in calling Black entry into your country 'immigration' on a par with voluntary immigration by Europeans overlooks the one huge fact that ought to be staring you in the face.
Pretending that discrimination against Black people ended with the abolition of slavery misses another fact.

A lot of Black Americans did escape the South - but it seems that a lot are still there:

Why do you think that is?

Even debating the possiblity with Paley that differences in economic performance could be due to 'IQ' is the beginning of a slippery slope for you my friend.

Your society needs to address this festering wound at its heart and do something about it. If you don't like 'Affirmative Action' and can't make it work - then what are you going to do?
How about proposing massive investment in the education and welfare of all the citizens of your country?

Of course you won't do that because it might interfere with the blessed 'free market'. Tax cuts for the mega rich are a much more pressing priority for Mr Bush.

Incidentally Steve - I'm not a fan of 'Affirmative 'Action myself - it can create other injustices; and is a solution 'on the cheap'. But I don't think you can compare the situation with the UK. The rigorous application of 'Equal opportunities' (despite the bleatings of the right wing press) seems to have the support of most people here on the grounds of simple 'fairness'. It doesn't seek to ignore racial differences, and in fact British citizens are asked to identify their racial origins at every turn of life so that institutional racism can be identified.
There may be instances where stronger action needs to be taken to ensure 'fair play' - such as challenging the admission policies of Oxbridge - or the gender imbalance in the House of Commons for example. These could be described as 'positive action for fairness' but we generally tend to steer clear of 'quota -driven' and simplistic policies such as 'Affirmative action' as practised in the States.
However despite our previous involvement in starting the whole evil trade - we were the first country to fight against the slave trade, and we don't have the same history of slavery in this country (although I won't deny we were responsible for introducing it to the Caribbean, and presumbably the 'Colonies' in the first place).
We're far from perfect - but the general consensus here is that everyone deserves a fair chance to get the most out of life.
Paley can happily rationalise why certain 'ethnic groups' should be treated differently.

I'll accept Flint's assurance that he believes no such thing - but I would point out that 'economic liberalism' and academic discussion that the 'subject needs further investigation'; is simply a recipe for inaction.

Date: 2006/01/16 12:24:16, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Hi Flint -

I don't for one minute think that you're a racist - and I apologise if I have been stupid enough to taint you with that offensive label.

I do think that 'economic liberals' like yourself seem anxious to put the blame for poverty on the poor. There is a racial and historical element in your history that compounds  the inequalities between rich and poor - yet rather than address this you'd rather go and look for other explanations and make irrelevant comparisons to other groups:

Persisting in calling Black entry into your country 'immigration' on a par with voluntary immigration by Europeans overlooks the one huge fact that ought to be staring you in the face.

“Again, you misunderstand. These other groups, different as they may be for any number of reasons, are nonetheless the only basis we have for comparison. I presume you are arguing that their various circumstances have simply been too dissimilar to tell us anything useful. You may be right. I may be searching for patterns where there are none.”

Later you go on to say:

“Your "let's not look at what we don't wish to notice" attitude is good hearted, I'm sure, but brainless.”

I think that you can be accused of the same thing.

I have not said that there are self-destructive tendancies in any group that is at the bottom of the pile - we call it the 'cycle of deprivation' here - as Steve pointed out the phenomenom is well-known in the UK. These need to be addressed at the same time  positive action is taken to help this group.
(In case Paley is getting too smug at our disagreements I'd like to point out that: the widespread acceptance of the fatalistic Christian religion amongst Afro-Americans, which promises it's rewards in the next life; should bear some of the blame).

Date: 2006/01/16 12:43:33, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Pretending that discrimination against Black people ended with the abolition of slavery misses another fact.

“Since I have never said such a thing, and in fact said *repeatedly* that very real discrimination continues in force, I don't know how you find any "pretense." This statement is either dishonest or stupid. You can pick either one. AND you can apologize.”

“And so in no more than two generations, the various waves of spics, dagos, wops, kikes, micks, krauts, frogs and their ilk were indistinguishable from, you know, actual real people. But this has never really been true of either the Africans nor the Asians. An accident of biology, despite the occasional (and often spectacularly attractive) exception. And I mention all of this to counter the fairly commonly proposed notion that biologically visible differentness explains rejection of African-Americans, which explains their social and economic difficulties, which explains their bottom-of-the-barrel status despite having been freed 150 years back.”

- It is this latter statement that had me confused Flint? Three statements in one. You say that you are 'countering the notion' - but which notion? Just 'biological visible difference' perhaps? In which case what else explains 'their social and economic difficulties, which explains their bottom-of-the-barrel status despite having been freed 150 years back.

Perhaps I was unfair and misinterpreted you - and to be fair to you are having to reply to a number of others at the same time. I don't think I was either dishonest or stupid.
If you really think that the history of slavery and continuing discrimination to the present day are major factors in limiting the social advancement of black people in your country - then I have misunderstood you and apologise.
If so I can agree with you that this history has helped the development of  a self-destructive culture which only compounds the misery - I'd consider this to be an effect rather than a primary cause though.

Date: 2006/01/16 12:54:03, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
“What bothers me is, IF you are right that it takes more than 2 generations to bounce back from adversity, why have all of the other immigration waves done so as easily as they have? ALL of them faced severe discrimination, most of them didn't speak the language, most of them were dirt poor, few of them had any formal education, and at least in the case of the Jews, discrimination remains virulent.

So as I tried to argue with ericmurphy, it's not sufficient to simply opine that 2 generations aren't enough for blacks, blithely ignoring the fact that it HAS been enough for *every other group*, despite explicit social handicaps. And this despite the fact that blacks have been the recipients of a long and growing history of targeted social handouts the other groups never enjoyed (including welfare, affirmative action, various child care programs, and so on. While these programs have failed to have the desired effect, they DID transfer a whole lot of wealth).”

Of course you won't do that because it might interfere with the blessed 'free market'. Tax cuts for the mega rich are a much more pressing priority for Mr Bush.

How is this even remotely on topic? I spend post after post after post talking about the nature-nurture debate, about IQ testing, about history, and suddenly you start talking about Bush and taxes. Please, take irrelevancies to another thread.

I think although economic liberals don't care for racism - they don't want to spend any money on claearing up the mess. People should 'pull themselves up by their own bootstraps'.

I'm interested to know how much this 'whole lot of wealth' was that was transferred? and how it stacks up in comparison to say, Gearge Bush's recent tax cuts. How is this 'off-topic'?

Date: 2006/01/16 13:03:14, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
“My outsider's gut feeling is genuine merit is recognized, although for blacks perhaps it takes more merit per unit of reward.”

“Problem is, nearly anyone who gets a decent education can make a decent living, but only one in a thousand (or less) can make it as a professional athlete.”

“Sure, we can take your attitude (indeed, we HAVE taken that attitude) that this difference in performance must be due to circumstances beyond their control. They don't CHOOSE to be descendents of slaves, or to be discriminated against in law and practice. It's not (at least proximately) their doing that the society they live in provides strong disincentives to achieve anything. How much blame should we attach if the disincentives of discrimination have a social effect?”

“And so we can attempt to change circumstances so they don't present any barriers or handicaps. But we also need to monitor our efforts closely, because we know what the road to, uh, heck is paved with. If our efforts are counterproductive, we need to recognize this and stop doing it. I'm certainly not recommending inaction. I DO reject the idea that we should make circumstances even worse on the grounds that we need to DO something, and we WANT our actions to work. Wanting, even wanting real real hard, so far hasn't worked very well.”

- Finally some statements we both agree on (although even  someone with a 'decent education' can face barriers not faced by someone whose 'face fits' - even here)

So supposing we agree there is a problem:

What do you propose Flint?

- scrapping Affirmative Action?

- ending welfare and  the other programs you mentioned?

Okay what next?

Date: 2006/01/16 14:47:42, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I think you've hit on a key point Steve - marginal rates of taxation for people on welfare are often 95-100% -(sometimes  bizarrely even more -I'm in this postion now - I'm unemployed - my mortage is paid for by a policy I paid for to cover the eventuality of redundancy -if I took a low paid job then I'd lose these payment and my house.
I have to be patient until a well-enough paid job comes along in my specialised field).

I used to run compulsory employment and training schemes for unemployed people - they ranged from the truly feckless, and drug dealers with alternate income sources: to willing people that had been let down by the education system, and people that had just had bad luck in life and wanted to get back on their feet.

We helped a lot of people develop new skills and get jobs - develop self-esteem and motivation - I see many of these people everyday and they are grateful for the help we gave them.

But for this to work it costs money - and there have to be opportunities for people to go to. In a lot of cases if more attention had been paid to these people at school or even younger - we wouldn't have been left to pick up the pieces.

Carrot and stick is needed - pressure people to work by all means - but you are leading them up the garden path if you aren't going to try to make sure that doors are open and opportunities are there.

Affirmative action may have been a cack-handed atempt to do this - but I'm sure it has it's successes. Maybe it's time to modify it and move towards 'positive action' rather than 'positive discrimination'. Seriously investing in education in all 'deprived areas' and planning to increase University places for the high school graduates of the future would be a start.
I don't see Bush's 'no child left benind' slogan as being much more than empty rhetoric if he's not prepared to put the tax dollars in. A sound investment for your country I would have thought. Now what a bout reversing those tax cuts?

Having got to a position of relative harmony I shall gracefully withdraw to the 'English Garden Party' where you are most welcome to be my guest Flint. IYou'll have to show us how you whip up those newfangled cocktails of yours but I'm sure you'll be a hit with the ladies..

Toodle -pip old chap!! ;)

Date: 2006/01/17 08:29:34, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Glad to see another lady has arrived to brighten up the company - now chaps - mind your manners - who's going to get Julie a 'Soupy Twist' ?

Would you care for a 'petit four' Julie?

Date: 2006/01/17 08:34:59, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Let's hope it give other boards that were thinking of doing the same pause for thought....

Date: 2006/01/17 09:50:42, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I'd suggest poverty and safety in numbers old Ghostey.

If I thought there was a level playing field in your mind I'd think you were worth talking to.

As you know what your postion is on racial matters - I don't see the point.

Date: 2006/01/17 12:13:59, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
don't bother Paley -

-and don't bother quoting your pin-up 'McWhorter' - one of the refererences you gave to him was of his opinion that the Brithish far right has renewed itself and the  BNP (British National Party) is 'sweeping the country led by their charismatic leader 'Nick Griffiths.

The BNP has less than 0.0- something % of the popular vote - and it's leader is up in court at the moment on a charge of 'inciting racial hatred', having been caught out on camera by a TV documentary.

He got that so wrong I wouldn't trust his opinion on anything else.

Black people are hanicapped by the predjudices of others whilst it's clear that you are handicapped by your own.

If you're so clever why don't you do something about it?

.. and if you're so busy working on your 'papers' (Guts to Gametes?) how come you've got all this time for Trolling?

Date: 2006/01/17 12:22:13, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
....sorry for that faux pas Julie! - I was more concerned with getting 'petits fours' right - gosh! what a fool  I am!

.. gone back to insert the missing letter - must be those herbal cigarettes

(Dr Sigmund, sitting in the corner has another amusing reason he tells me!;)

Date: 2006/01/17 15:19:59, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Libel Paley ..Libel..

Date: 2006/01/17 23:33:24, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. or worry about getting busted..

Oh Hello! Chief Constable .. would you like to try one of the the vicar's wife's rather remarkarkable cookies???

Date: 2006/01/18 13:03:04, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Before you let some of 'Ghost of Paley's' assertions go unchallenged, and allow him to bloster his self-delusion that he actually knows what he's talking about - I'd like to throw some information into this debate - especially when it comes to France.
It's a wonderful country, one that I'm confident Paley has never visited.
I live on the English Channel so it's less than fifty miles away from me: I have many friends their from all sections of society : I have worked with groups there for many years; and I speak the language.

However I find I must 'do a Ghost of Paley' - and plead more pressing engagements (you'd have more credibility on other threads 'Ghost of  Paley' - if you actually came back with your 'paper' - pleading more pressing committments looks od when you find time to troll here).

I'll be back to challenge some assumptions:

In the meantime for your homework:

1. After hundreds of generations of fear and poverty why did the Jews find that the opportunity of escaping to "The land of the Free" was a good idea?
... and if they were so clever. why were they still so poor?

2. If the "Land of the Free" desperately needed hard workers to assist its colonisation efforts - why didn't it simply institute a "voluntary immigration" route from Africa???

3. Do all citizens of the "Land of the Free" enjoy the same freedoms in this world; and if not why not?

3. In what year did the expression "Land of the Free" live up to its meaning?

.. A special task for "Ghost of Paley:
- read up on some French constitutional (4th and 5th republics) - and colonial history........ there will be questions……


P.S ... you'll have notice I've not used the shorthand 'Paley' anymore - I think it's unfair on the original.

PPS...I do notice that there isn't a single working scientist at the Panda's Thumb that hides behind an 'Avatar'.

PPPS.... 'Ghost of Paley' is a strange pretension for someone who - claims to be 'working on a paper' - which will probably make him in his own words a "future Fields and Nobel Prize winner".

If that comes true "Ghost of Paley" - I'm happy to do the bit in your biopic where I say:

"I knew him when his was a pathetic Internet Troll - hardly indistinguisable from the "Larry" type"

…..just before the nice man in the White Jacket comes to take you and Larry off to the playroom….

Date: 2006/01/18 13:31:33, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I always thought it was a mispelling of 'Moron' - or perhaps a way of getting around a board's 'self-censorship' mechanisms ( you try using even using the word "####" around here - as in the opposite to heaven - and you see what happens..) but I thought it impolite to point it out for risk of making myself look a fool...

enjoying yourself at the 'Party' chaps?

Date: 2006/01/18 14:37:49, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Crikey - you learn something new every day..

... and you mean Larry's not  'here'?

Date: 2006/01/18 14:57:59, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. sorry by the way if you interpret this as a 'content free post'.

'Ghost of Paley’ has been full of beans of late at the:  105 post; 11 page; "Guns   Germs and Steel" thread, that he started a week ago to talk about his favourite topic.

I've even suggested that he get back to his paper on 'Guts to Gametes' that you guys are waiting for but it seems he just can't help "spreading himself thin".

Focus! Paley Focus!

Date: 2006/01/18 23:45:28, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I wasn't planning to lecture you on Jewish culture "Ghost of Paley". You seem to know a lot about it, including some Yiddish words.

Aren't you supposed to be 'working on a paper' or 'suffering from a blocked up nose' or something?

Do you really want to repeat my analysis of your approving citation of an 'unrefuted' paper written by a 'White Supremacist'? - (or was that 'White Nationalist'? - a distinction that seems to be important to you; in the way that Larry prefers the term "Holocaust revisionism" to  ''Holocaust denier" - perhaps one of them is nicer or something).

Remember the reason that this matter arose. You supported the contention that society needed religiously-imposed morality otherwise it would degenerate:

For anyone who is remotely interested in all this Paley kicked this one off here:

and I replied here:

Several people quoted well-reseached papers that supported my position.
"Ghost of Paley" quoted a paper by a "White whatever" that was written in response to the flak the far-right in America were getting after the racist murder of a black man (he was dragged behind a truck until he died).

Incidentally since you yourself have quoted papers that note stong  correlations between levels of religiosity  and crime, teenage pregnancy, abortion etc. within the US : as well showing that you were unable to challenge to paper noticing the same tendancies internationally; then I consider that there is sound evidence that societies can work perfectly well without religiously imposed morality: and if anything function rather better without it.

Even if you were to cite a paper from a respectable source that showed that blacks commit more crime; since they are the most religious section of society in the US, then all you've done is undermine your own point.

Now get back to work - those boys have been waiting patiently for your 'Guts to Gametes' paper; and further detail on your 'geocentric universe' - you can't keep stalling them forever - and your excuses lose credibility whilst you're busily posting on this thread....

Date: 2006/01/19 00:13:05, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Just to shed a little light on the 'public funding for prevetative healthcare' debate that came up earlier in theis thread:

Dr Tara Smith talks eloquently on this subject on her 'Aetiology' blog:

Date: 2006/01/19 11:32:34, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Paley you're racist.

You asked me to answer your questions - and when I answered them you accused me of changing the subject.

... and aren't you suposed to suffering from a 'stuffy nose', and don't you have a paper to work on?

I can tell that those guys on the other thread are getting tired of your excuses..

But then you'd probably prefer to avoid them now that you're out of your depth there and hang around here spouting off on your favourite subject.....

Date: 2006/01/19 11:36:43, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Not to Bleh to spout off on your favourite topic over at the 'Guns, Germs and Steel' thread you started Ghostey..

You are seriously selling these guys short......

Date: 2006/01/20 13:02:27, Link
Author: Dean Morrison

I think it's pointless talking to 'Gop' - someone who will work his peculiar, 'POV', into any topic.

There is a book called the 'Audit of war' which takes a pretty hard-edged view of the *Marshall Plan* and the relative position of the USA (and the UK)  and it's allies after the 2nd World war. I don't agree with it - but there's some interesting analysis there.

Sweden and the USA were economies that benefited enormously from 'war' at that time for example - without physical damage to their infrastructure.

The UK largely gave up all the capital (of any kind) it had for it's own survival.

When Paley recovers from his excuse of: a 'stuffy nose' that he uses to avoid difficult questions about his "future Fields and Nobel" prize-winning paper he's working on...
and when his 'too busy' or 'feeling  blah' excuses; which  he uses  at the :

"Ghost of Paley can back up his assertions thread"

and he can show that  he has ever had an original thought; or that he is anything else other that an attention seeker..

.. and express himself here without hiding behind some else's op-ed...

then I'd be interested in what he has to say....?

But I fully expect to be dissappointed.

Fire away the "Avatar which calls itself the Ghost of Paley"!

Date: 2006/01/21 00:19:09, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I think someone popped some absinthe into his trifle and he's too interested in the snakes climbing up the walls to notice....

Date: 2006/01/21 00:46:41, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Flint - thanks for pointing out my horrible use of the contraction 'It's' - you are absolutely right of course.

However I think you are simply incorrect when you say that 'GOP' is arguing for a 'level playing field' and would not discriminate agains people on the grounds of race (or 'ethnic group' as he prefers to say).

A modest proposal

So here's the solution:
1) Restrict immigration to those nations who respect our culture.
2) Buy out those immigrants who don't, and send them back to their countries of origin (where they won't be held back by the BEDs who torment them so). Perhaps an average bribe of $5000/yr for every year spent in the host country (up to 10 years), plus all their liquified assets of course
3) Let freedom of commerce and association ring through the land. Abolish minimum wage, race laws, and any other useless, government-bloating, liberty-crushing machinations on the citizen. Let people pay what they want, live with whom they want, and say what they want.
What are the advantages of this model? I'll fill in the details later.
A modest proposal

Of course GOP like to dress up his racism in more palatable terms - but various contributors have managed to tease out the truth of his position.
Of course if he can succees in convincing you that he has a reasonable and respectable position - I'm sure he'll feel a sense of achievement. But I'd be sure to check out what you're buying from him - I think you might balk at some of his ideas if you dig a little deeper.

Date: 2006/01/21 11:57:24, Link
Author: Dean Morrison

So you plan to offer 'malcontented immigrants' cash bribes to emigrate on a 'voluntary basis'?

Don't be suprised when GOP comes up with Plan 'B' when this fails to have the desired effect.

Perhaps a clearer example of the slippery GOP revealing his racism (remember the definition?) is here:

'Ghost of Paley' wrote:
In fact, a cursory inspection of modern immigration history quickly identifies the groups that blend most seamlessly into the Western fabric: Europeans, Northeast Asians, and Jews (No surprise, since these groups helped create the Western identity in the first place). Now, a lot of ink has been spilled trying to identify the precise cause of this; but for our purpose the reason is immaterial. I don't care why these groups are so beneficial to Western societies, I just know that they are, and as a pragmatist, I would like to use that fact.

How exactly does GOP plan to determine whether someone is 'European', 'Nort-East Asian' or 'Jewish'.

By country of origin?, if so why didn't he say Israelis for Jews? - or would he be prepared to take someones word for it? If an Ethiopean says he is a Jew is GOP going to welcome him with open arms?

In the UK we have had a large influx of Romanies, Kosovans and Albanians that many in this country would like to see return home. As they are Europeans and therefore alright by GOP then you could solve our 'problem' by giving them all American citizenship. I'm sure our right wing press would thank you you profusely.

It is clear that you wish to discriminate on the grounds of race - (or 'ethnic group' as you put it) - not nationality, or ability and skills.

This alone is enough to define you as a 'racist'.

And are you sure that your fellow citizens would welcome this new influx of immigrants? As I understand it you don't voluntarily let many people in at the moment. I don't know anyone from the UK who has emmigrated to the States - although there are many who have gone to Canada and Australia and other places. Apparantly you let 50,000 people in through a lottery system - a tiny number compared to your population and the size of your country.

'Level playing field' my '****'......

Date: 2006/01/21 12:45:34, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
let's not worry over trifles...

Date: 2006/01/22 02:53:12, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
For a look at New Zealand from a different perspective check out the film 'Once were Warriors'.

A very powerful film in its own right. I guess gregonomic could comment on how accurate it is.

The political situation in New Zealand sounds like that in Tasmania where my sister lives. Many communities of 'Greenies' and people seeking alternative lifestyles; and many other communities of  people who have traditionally depended on extracting their living from the environment in a more direct way.

No suprise that they have rather different views about logging primary forest, mining, dam-building and heavy industry; and that this seems connected to their social outlook.

No racial problems to speak of though - we wiped out all the Tasmanians and used convicts for cheap labour.

Australia is a thus a nation of 'malcontents' but they seem to have done rather well for themselves. Don't think many would want to come back to blighty for a few bucks. Their equivalents of the GOP aren't as keen as he is on 'North-East Asians' - and would happily 'send them all back'.

Perhaps they could establish some kind of trade in 'malcontents' - swap you some latinos for some Phillipinos sort of thing?

Date: 2006/01/22 11:12:16, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
The gamekeeper is out in the Beech wood with the poodles looking for some of those just now... I understand that he has 'Lady' that finds the odour rather invigourating....

Date: 2006/01/22 13:06:21, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Steve wrote:

"What in principal is wrong with schools setting admission standards? Why have we just about abandoned the grammer school?"

It take it that you didn't go to a Grammar school then Steve??? :p

-- actually Larry got me looking for stuff on this.

Faith schools aren't funded by the church any more Steve - the reason we have them is that when education was nationalised here, charitable faith schools were brought into the system.

Faith schools often perform 'well' in the sense that they have better performing students - but then they have informal forms of selection which pick out more kids wiith more supportive parents. Children in care don't get a look in for example. Emmanuel College in Gateshead - which is one of Blairs 'City Acadamies' takes an unusually low number of children with 'special learning needs' - and then doesn't look after them well - go check their Ofsted report. These 'Acadamies' also get extra state funding that other schools don't get - the Audit Commision doesn't think they offer value for money even when they perform 'well'.

Blair takes a simplistic view of this and wants to expand the number of state supported faith schools. This will mean dividing kids by religion at a young age - putting schools in the hands of all sorts of faith groups and private individuals and 'charities' - and leaving the 'leftovers' and the children that need the most help to be taught in underfunded 'bog standard' schools.

I think he's going to come a cropper with this one.

The best resources I have found are on the British Humanist Society site here:

Lord May - the retiring Chair of the Royal Society has had something to say on the matter:,3605,1653748,00.html

... anyone else think that this subject deserves a thread of it's own?

Date: 2006/01/22 14:13:30, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Steve .. I can't see that there is any threat to existing faith schools. I'd  like to see extra funding for alternatives in places where the the majority of schools are faith schools; such as Northern Ireland, and parts of Scotland for example; and where faith schooling re-inforces intolerance and sectarianism.

I am determinedly against the further expansion of faith schools across the country. I think that reasoning that it will lead to an increase in standards is bogus. As all faiths will have to be treated equally, then this will lead to an expansion in the number of Islamic schools in areas like the North-West where you come from for example - and do nothing for integration and the development of a 'British Identity'.

The American rejection of ID in schools doesn't come from an analysis of good or bad science as such - it comes from the realisation that true religious freedom requires that the state stays out of such matters. The justification at the moment for the expansion of faith schools is that they 'perform better' than ordinary schools. By extension of this reasoning then if 'faith schools' of a particular type start performing better than others (and this is the case of course) - the logically these schools should be favoured and expanded - whilst 'failing ones' are closed down.

Unnecessary 'entanglement' as the Americans put it.

Date: 2006/01/22 15:36:46, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Could I point out that on the Mr Brazeau's thread Gop has been rumbled as a 'Google trawler'?

I'm afraid that he's the one that wishes to waste your time with 'content-less' posts. He thinks that if he can assemble a lot of words and a few links he might pass as some kind of authority. I see you are very patient with him, despite his phoney excuses, and the way he changes the subject when things get tough for him...

Paley has no 'model', no 'paper' - and not even a name that he's proud enough to attach to his ideas.

Content possibly - if 'Google-trawled' cut and paste stuff counts.

I would have thought it was pretty clear to you whether GOP can back up his assertions or not

Date: 2006/01/22 15:44:43, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I thought this so funny I just had to post a reply:

   To: darkocean

   In the Bloggers & Personal forum, on a thread titled The Intelligent Design Revolution, darkocean wrote:

   “I’ve got a question for some of the evolution crowd here:

   If ID is supposed to be a religious doctrine, which religion does it support or is it associated with?”


Dean Morrison:

   I would have thought there might be a clue in the ‘Topics’ listed at the top of this section:


Date: 2006/01/22 15:59:04, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Hi Steve..

I understand that the standard if education in NI is very good.

However it is slso the case that the faith-based school system is at least partly responsible for perpetuating the differences between two tribes. There are only 58  schools where you can be taught with children of other beliefs - the very first one opened in 1981.

There is now a 'Nortern Ireland Council for Integrated Education'. On i't website you can access independant research that shows that Children that attend 'Integrated' schools are more likely to occupy the middle ground in politics:

First, at a time of ongoing sectarianism and frustrated politics, where many people seem programmed into the view that identity is something which we are receive at birth and is fixed for life, rather like our DNA.  This research confirms that young people who attend an integrated school are willing to challenge such stereotypes by being "more likely to reject traditional identities and allegiances than those who attended a segregated one". They are able to explore the whole meaning of identity, because integrated schools provide safe spaces within which they are supported and encouraged to challenge sectarian stereotypes and explore alternative models of citizenship.

Second, those findings of the wider study which were based upon a large sample of the adult population (Life and Times survey) suggest that "the positive effects of integrated schooling extend into later life". There is no coincidence in the fact that the title of the research links integrated schooling with political progress, as the report goes on to suggest that an integrated education nurtures the development of individuals who "have the potential to create a new common ground in N Ireland politics".

This willingness to engage with the other takes place on both sides of the so called "political divide" as evidenced by the report´s findings that "Protestants who experience a formally integrated education occupy the middle ground in N Ireland politics"  while "in general Catholics who attended either a formally or informally integrated school were more likely than their segregated counterparts to abandon their traditional territorial allegiances".

I can't speak from experience like yourself - but don't you think that children in Northern Ireland could have an equally good or even better education if they weren't seperated according to the faith of their parents at age 5?

Date: 2006/01/23 14:09:29, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I'm working in a voluntary capacity with eight year -olds in a primary school.

It's in a difficult area - and some of these kids have truly lousy parents. These kids tend to be hard work - but why should they be punished twice for something that they can do nothing about?

Faith schools drop kids like this at the drop of a hat  - a nice simple way to push up their score compared to other schools (I believe there was a report published just today that backs this up  ah.. found it..
Kelly suppresses report).
Other schools then have to take them in. I think that state school should do their best by all nations children - even if it it means working harder on the ones that are showing problems.

Otherwise by the time these kids get to be teenagers, they're even worse trouble; and after that - unemployment crime, drugs - it would have been cheaper to give the kids a decent schooling and some opportunities in the first place.
I've worked with enough unemployed illiterate and inumerate teenagers to know what sink schools are expected to turn out. Blair wants to let them drop even further behind to appease the middle classes.

Oh .. and the Cat Stevens info...

Call for madrassas inside state schools, TES, 14/10/05
Muslim experts suggest ways to tackle alienation behind London bombings
Madrassas, the religious schools linked to mosques, should have the option of moving to the site of their local state schools, an education taskforce set up by Tony Blair following the London bombings has said.
The group of Muslim academics and educationists, which includes Yusuf Islam, formally pop star Cat Stevens, handed in its report to Charles Clarke, Home Secretary, last week.
Proposals included the creation of a Muslim educational research centre, a national ethnic achievement programme and shaking up the UK's Islamic schools or madrassas...

from the British Humanist Society Schools info page

Date: 2006/01/24 01:14:53, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I seem to remember quite a lot of Ozzies would like to send you Kiwis back Gregonomic. :)

At this rate it's going to be quite busy in the garden of Eden.
Mind you - it would be cool to have a chat with that talking snake - I wonder if he knows anything about string theory?

Date: 2006/01/24 01:39:44, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Hang on if Dave Scot is banned here to the extent that the can't read this forum - how was he able to paste Wesley's explanation into his UP thread?

I love his Tagline - "Fair Warning - comments may be moderated" - I imagine him saying it in a 'Dalek' voice.

A fairer warning would be to list the topics and opinions that will get you 'moderated' - over and above the good manners etc rules that most boards have.

I suppose the list would be too long, and hard for DaveScot to maintain since it seems to be constantly growing.?

Is there a name for this particular pathology?

Date: 2006/01/24 06:11:16, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I've started off this thread to carry over the conversations started off in the 'Bathroom Wall' and elsewhere on this topic.

With the controversy about the new 'White Paper' for education that is raging at the moment - I think this deserves a thread of its own. It seems to me that American inspired creationists have spotted a 'backdoor route' to teaching Creationism and ID as Science in the UK. Tony Blair claims to be interested in 'diversity', 'introducing new partners'; and is unduly impressed by the 'performance' of Faith schools.

So here's a new thread - another reason for it is we don't want our American cousins wondering why we are spending so much time in the 'Batroom' talking to each other!

I don't think the British media have really picked up on the implications of his proposals; and he rarely gets challenged on the implications for the teaching of evolution.

The most up-t0date resources on the subject are collated by the British Humanist Society here:

Faith Schools: useful facts, figure and information.

The Education Guardian - (Polly Toynbee article) is tracking the issue.

I also found this very recent study on the reasons for the apparant good 'performance' of faith schools informative:,,1693069,00.html

..and this one about how giving schools the right to determine their own admissions leads to further segregation:,,1693900,00.html

For info on what the National Curriculum require we teach our children on matters of evolution (statutory), - look here:


and for faith (non-statutory) look here:

I think it would be good if the British commentators on the PT were to inform the British Press and MP's of the significance of to these new proposals of the debate that has been raging over ID in the states. While we've been interested onlookers - perhaps we've overlooked a threat nearer to home?

I'm sure we are all of different political persuasions, and will have varying opinions on the subject of education - but that shouldn't matter if we can agree on the issue of teaching ID

Date: 2006/01/24 08:08:12, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Don't know about an effete clickable icon - but how about an Avatar?

More of this kind here:

.. now if you don't mind I'll have to calm down an altercation between the brigadier and the schoolmistress - the brigadier is so insistant that its clotted cream first and strawberry jam on top in a 'Devonshire Cream tea'; whilst Miss Prendergast is blaspheming, and swearing that it's the other way around... ???

Date: 2006/01/24 11:45:53, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Hi Steve..

I guess we don't disagree much - but I'm glad we come to our agreements from different starting points - it's going to make  our excursion to London all the more interesting!

It would be fun to meet a guy like Flint - for all that we like to argue here I'm sure we would respect each other a lot, and find more room for agreement than otherwise.

What a weird world these discussion forums are.

What a strange collection of 'trolls we attract. I think there is some truth in the observation that wheras the scientifically inclined can start from divergent political views but agree about the specifics of things that are empirically testable ( in other words -agree), the people on the other side are an explosive mixture when it comes to the Truth™.

Imagine Carol, DaveScot, Jad, Heddle, Larry and 'Ghost of Paley' having dinner together - then going off to see a lecture by Dembski at some seminary or other.

No .. my imagination doesn't stretch that far either - would make for a good *Big Brother* reality TV show though.

.. back to British schools...

Blair is coming in for a lot of flak about potential 'selection' for schools.

The expansion of faith schools, and the intention to hand over controls to wealthy 'highly motivated' - sponsors - that the new proposals would allow: hardly seems to get a mention - am I missing something?...

(anyone see the new political satire comedy series "In the thick of it"? - all about the triumph of 'spin' over substance..?)

... and I have to confess to enjoying watching 'Celebrity Big Brother' for the spectacle of George Galloway self-destructing. To watch a dotty 'Essex girl' (Chantelle) taking him apart in a way that Christopher Hitchens and the massed might of the US Senate couldn't: restores my faith in the masses. OT I know ... but heck I started it...

P.S - can we please have a 'British Blasphemy Censorer' for this thread?  Heck isn't a bad word in the UK. Heck as in rhymes with  deck by the way....

Oh? - i thought you couldn't say heck here - maybe I was thinking of #### ..? you get a lot of x's if you say that word ( rhymes with 'Dingly Dell'  )

so Heck! Heck! Heck!

Flipping Heck!




Date: 2006/01/24 11:52:21, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Could you translate that into English please GOP.

... and do you multifarious talents actually extend to the 'abitity to  travel outside your own country'?

Travel does 'broaden the mind' you know.

Date: 2006/01/24 14:56:42, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Hi Steve,

one of the ways that the US and the UK differ is that they have a constitution that says that the state should not be involved in endorsing or suppressing the religion or beliefs of it's citizens.

One of the prongs of the 'Lemon test' for this is whether an action leads to the 'entanglement' of the state in faith issues. This acts a protection agains the teaching of religious doctrine as science.

In the UK we don't have this. We do however pride ourselve on a sensible attitude to things.

The issue of teaching Creationism in science in UK state schools doesn't arise as a constitutional issue - the entanglement is there already, and if faith schools of any and all types are to be encouraged - this will only get deeper.

Allowing schools to set their own admission policies, and to select by 'faith' or 'church attendance' or 'ethos' of the parents - and handing over control of the school and its curriculum to a wealthy evangelical as in the case of Emmanuel College in Gateshead and similar 'city acadamies':

City schools could be front for evangelicals

Education ministers have pledged to create up to 200 City Academies. The scheme involves private sponsors contributing Ł2 million to the establishment of new state schools, run in partnership with the local education authority. Originally blue chip businesses were expected to back them, but in fact over 40 per cent of the sponsors for the Academies due to open over the next two years are either faith-based charities, Church of England figures or well-known evangelicals.

Among the forthcoming projects is the Grace Academy, due to open in Solihull this year with another to come in Coventry: its sponsor is the car dealer and born-again Christian Bob Edmiston, founder of the evangelical broadcasting organisation Christian Vision.

He has reportedly dismissed evolution as a theory that 'came from one guy called Darwin', and project spokesman Steve Chase has said the Coventry school will teach creationism: 'What we've said is we will teach evolution - because it is a theory still, unless someone has found the missing link and proofs to put it to bed once and for all - and creationism, in the appropriate subjects.

'Certainly evolution is usually taught in science and creationism usually in RE, but that would not exclude a closer look at comparative theories of the origins of the world in either subject.'

All British schools must teach evolution as part of the science curriculum. But the Department for Education and Skills allows the teaching of creationism alongside it in RE classes.

... wil clearly lead to the teaching of creationism and ID in science classes.

... spot the doublespeak there by the way....

Blairs white paper, School 'Independance and selection' - and the opportunities for Evangelicals to teach ID as science are intimately linked in the UK.

It would be nice if we could have clear cut 'Dover' cases - but we don't - we have a parliamentary system. If you are concerned about this the time to do it is now. Once the system is in place it will be to late for the kids involved, and undoing the damage will bew far harder than putting an end to it in the first place....

Incidentally all state-funded schools are required to teach the National Curriculum ... but these proposed 'independant schools' are allowed freedom to decide how they want to do it.

Date: 2006/01/24 15:19:14, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. Emmanuel College has to a bit careful about 'toeing the line' on teaching the National Curriculum. But I'm sure some of our American friends can see the true intention behind these fine sounding words in its approach to teaching science:


Emmanuel College has been established "to the glory of God" and, from its very
name, seeks to present the Curriculum in its widest sense in terms of a Christian
viewpoint. In many ways, the World View which places as an absolute priority the
rights of the individual to choose between what is and what is not acceptable is so
prevalent in our culture that any attempt to challenge it is seen as reactionary,
sinister or risible. Emmanuel seeks to make this very challenge.
In this context, Science is intrinsically bound up within the culture in which it exists
and approaching the Curriculum from a Christian perspective offers an opportunity to
re-evaluate the implications of contemporary World Views upon scientific study. The
ultimate aim will therefore be to give a positive perspective of God's purposes in
creation and, equally importantly, to make us better scientists.

The humanistic scientific heritage

The "modern" approach to Science, originally put forward by Francis Bacon (1561 -
1626), relies upon the logic that experience generates theory that can be tested by
repeatable experiment, the results of which modify or confirm the original theory
and/or lead to further experimentation. In this light, the best scientists are the ones
who ask the right questions rather than those who generate the right answers.
Nevertheless, human nature being what it is, a 'tentative theory' often soon becomes
elevated into a 'law' around which a faith system emerges and sceptical thought is
inhibited. Boyle wrote a book called 'The Sceptical Chymist' in which he argued that
science was fundamentally about continuing to ask questions rather than simply
accepting the uncritical emergence of such 'laws'.
The 'anti scientific scientists', on the other hand, believe in the capacity of the human
mind to understand the whole of Creation and have created a 'faith system' in tune
more with humanism than with true academic scientific questioning. We seek to
distinguish between this 'scientism' and objective scientific enquiry.

The Biblical Christian perspective

All Christian thought stems from the Truths presented within the Bible and there is a
clear message throughout its pages from the first to the last page. From this source,
we read of several key Truths:

The Universe was created from nothing by God;

The Creator is separate from His Creation but is intrinsically bound up with its
support and ongoing workings;

Humanity is the crowning glory of this Creation and, although made of the same
physical substance, has been uniquely made in God's image and enlivened by His
very breath. Mankind has similarly been given a unique stewardship over the rest of

Humanity knows the difference between good and evil but the Creation is fallen from
its original perfection and
Christ is God the Son who came to earth to lead us back to God and who died to
atone for our sin. Through Him alone can we be redeemed.

Therefore, through the eyes of the Biblical Christian, Science becomes the vehicle
and the vocabulary in which the reality of God's Creation can be explored, explained
and exalted. The study of Science is not an end in itself but an academic meditation;a glimpse into the rational and powerful hand of the Almighty.
Science becomes a
privilege insofar as the full depths of reality are left open for us to glance into, aware
that, whilst we can develop an understanding of many things, the ultimate Truths of
Creation remain something which lie only in the mind of the Creator Himself.
And that is enough; for Science must never be exalted to the position of a god itself.

The implications for an approach to the study of Science

We follow in the footsteps of Newton and Einstein who, in studying Science, were
conscious of the exploration of the Creation and hoped to gain insight into the mind
of the Creator. As such the study was conducted with a sense of awe, wonder, trust
and respect. The placing of humans within the context of Creation means that any
interpretation or understanding will be limited by the extent of our senses and
intellect - a bit like the limitations placed on the approach to absolute zero and the
speed of light. It will also be important for ethical and moral issues to be explored
using Biblical Absolutes as the best starting point.

... very slippery indeed as Hannibal lecter would say - notice that Newton and Einstein are okay - but Darwin doesn't get a mention.

This was an inner-city school handed over to an evangelical used car salesman for a pittance. They immediately kicked out the difficult kids (having a 'special learning need' makes you difficult in their eyes) - and don't treat the one they have left very well.

Hey presto! their results improve and Tony Blair loves them. When questioned about the dubious nature of their teaching, and state money beinused to indoctinate kids Tony Blair says something vague about 'encouraging diversity'.

Handing over school control and power of admissions to individuals like this is the way ID and Creationism will be taught in British Schools with the taxpayers money -

if we allow it to happen that is...

Date: 2006/01/24 23:24:22, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
My! Henry..

.. I think you may be onto something there..

... now be a darling and get me a beer from the fruffle won't ya?

Date: 2006/01/24 23:53:43, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Hi Steve..

I don't think the debate in the UK is on the basis of selection by ability.

In fact this is specifically ruled out by the Labour Party, who have to a certain extent wrtten this into law. The new leader of the Conservative party have committed them to the same principle.

As for disruptive kids - id you give up on them at any age when they are still at school, society ends up playing a far greater price for the rest of their lifetimes.

Remember it costs more to keep someone in jail than it does to send them to Eton. Huge amounts of government money are being spent to teach adults how to read and write at the moment (without a lot of success). Adults who can't read or use numbers are almost unemployable nowadays. Far better to address the issue when the kids are still at school.

Don't get the impression I'm a big softie - I've worked on compulsory programmes to get young adults like this to get their lives back on track - It's hard work believe me, and sometimes you just want to strangle them.

Existing programs are working - and combined with social measures like ASBO's, and the new pressure on people on invalidity benefit to get work; and for people generally to realise that they have responsiblities as well as rights; show that there is a determination to address these issues. We have an active 'Surestart' programme in Hastings (as do many deprived areas  - which aims to get parents to bring there kids up properly before they even attend school. Thats about the best use of money I can think of in an area like this.

Anyway I digress. I think we can rally around the flag of 'keeping creationism and ID out of schools'.
The battleground in the UK is the new goverment White Paper - which promotes the creation of new 'Faith Schools' which can be handed over to wealthy evangelicals who can then take charge of the school curriculum, free from the control of their local authority.

One approach to this would be to mandate in much more specific terms what children should and shouldn't be taught in science classes; through the National Curriculum. Another would be to stop the process altogether. In many people opinion it is built on a faulty premise anyway.

The media in the UK seem to prefer to relate this as a power struggle between Blair and the rest of the Labour party, without focusing on the issues involved. I don't think they are the alert to the danger to science education. Since most people in the media are humanities graduates who don't understand or care anyway -perhaps this is not suprising.

My local MP, Michael J Foster is a devout Christian; but he's against the proposals. Good for him I say.

What is your MP's position on this matter?

Date: 2006/01/25 06:13:30, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. colonials indeed Sir Percy - but only the 'good types' you know - none of those ruffians that wear loud shouts and keep bumping into the furniture.

.. now shall I get you a napkin to wipe away that froth???

Date: 2006/01/25 06:34:55, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Only when they harass others, as is often the case in Australia.

... so I take it you've been there then GOP?

Date: 2006/01/25 07:01:44, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I do not know about this. Have you any links?
Who can't select by ability?

Discussed at PM's questions today for example - and we're talking schools - up to sixteen, not colleges or university.
The few remaining Grammar schools, mainly in Kent, are allowed to continue their practices.

Prison costs so much because of the costs of security, and the high staff/prisoner ratios required. I have a cousin who has been in a number of prisons (for drug dealing) - and he doesn't describe them as centre parcs. He did learn to drive a JCB in one which has allowed him to get a proper job and has kept him out of trouble (as far as i know!;)


"Huge amounts of government money are being spent to teach adults how to read and write at the moment (without a lot of success). Adults who can't read or use numbers are almost unemployable nowadays. Far better to address the issue when the kids are still at school.

Don't get the impression I'm a big softie - I've worked on compulsory programmes to get young adults like this to get their lives back on track - It's hard work believe me, and sometimes you just want to strangle them."

That is another thing I don't understand. If somebody is unemployable and on benefits, why can't the benefits depend on atending and reaching certain levels of training.

Why should unemployment benefit be eligible to people who desire and choose to be unemployed?

I ran the 'New Deal program' in Hastings up to last year - when we were closed down. This required unemployed adults to undergo compulsory training, and undertake community work; or lose benefits.  To cut a long story short -despite years of success - our funding was withdrawn - it obviously costs to provide the training, and 'Jobcentre Plus' were no longer willing to pay (they are being hit by Gordon Brown cuts to the civil service - but find it easier to cut funding to charities like the one I worked for).
So ironically now I'm unemployed, and there are no longer any decent programmes in place to get the long-term unemployed back to work...

I agree with you about tightening up the currriculum and ''specifying what should be excluded' (actually a daft idea of 'Larry's' - it would be better to stop schools falling into the hands of evangelicals in the first place.

Read through some of the links I gave to find out more - I wouldn't want you to depend entirely on my interpretation.

If you want to find out who your elected representative are - type in your postcode here:

Date: 2006/01/25 07:06:06, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Wow - looks like you have a black, slightly rebellious, conservative MP:

... don't see many of those...

worth a letter - especially if you stick to the 'good teaching of science' line. Won't change conservative policy but might set him thinking...

Date: 2006/01/25 07:34:25, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Only when they harass others, as is often the case in Australia.

.. Oh I see, so this is another of your 'assertions'.
I've been there by the way - including to Sydney, and I don't recall this being one of their 'worries' mate.

So am I right in thinking that you have no need to travel the world to 'broaden your mind' GOP?

All you have to do is stay at home and 'trawl the magic box'.

So you can pretend to yourself that you are an expert on things - when the reality is that you a bizarre little disembodied entity.

Oh I forgot you live in 'Paley's world don't you.

Must be a sad place.

Date: 2006/01/25 07:40:56, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. so he broke the New Scientist's copyright by publishing that article in full I see...


Date: 2006/01/25 07:46:22, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. actually it was the 'Dembski' himself that breached the New Scientist's copyright. Naughty boy!

Date: 2006/01/25 13:32:46, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
GOP .. you have the freedom to travel the world - but am I right in thinking you've never actually been anywhere, and see no need to - because you can stay at home and Googletrawl? Even though you have to allow for the Marxist media - although something tells me 'Fox' would be your channel of choice - or are they 'Marxist' in your eyes?

Oh I heard about the trouble in Sydney too - but I was interested in your assertion that it is 'often the case' that 'Muslims harrass people in Australia'?

Googletrawl for some evidence for that if you want to.

I'll stick by my first hand experience if you don't mind...

I have also noticed that whenever a specialist starts talking about their field - then Wow! - what a co-incidence - half an hour later you are an expert too. But I'm afraid that people see though a 'Googletrawler' like yourself - I was suspicious when you started quoting a rather obscure paper about the 'White Gene' - I'm sure you were dissapointed when you found it, and the term wasn't quite used in the way that you had hoped. You were found out my friend.

I have to admire your balls for the way you pick fights with you intellectual superiors - although I'm afraid they lose respect for you when you run away as soon as things start to get a little hot for you and you are clearly out of your depth.

How long have you been keeping these guys waiting at 'Paley's Ghost can back up his assertions' for this 'paper' you are working on?

I'm afraid your hit and run tactics don't work any more.

Whoever you are, you are a fraud - and you scare no one.

Date: 2006/01/25 13:42:23, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Obviously a fan of 'Roger's Profanisaurus' then Percy what! eh!

Perhaps we can introduce our American cousins to the cutting edge of our delightful tounge?

Especially that knobcheese 'Ghost of Paley' - ha! ha!

Date: 2006/01/26 00:49:58, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
... all that chasing you around you slippery thing.....

Date: 2006/01/26 00:58:04, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
As for the Avatar.. perhaps it didn't occur to you that a little

Socratic Irony

... might be involved?  I understand it's a concept many Americans are said to struggle with?

What were your impressions of England when you came here by the way? - Perhaps you'd like to give your answers over at that ever-popular thread, the: English Garden Party

Date: 2006/01/26 01:21:34, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. the nature of some of these events may seem to be counter-intuitive - but on the basis of what kind of intuition?

If we had a basis to think that:

When terrorists fly huge planes at huge buildings they usually miss (and presumably give up on the idea?)

When tall buildings fall down, they are supposed to 'topple over' like huge trees.

That tons of aviation fuel poured into a tall tubular building usually burns at the same temperature as a 'naturally aspirated fire'.

Moblie telephone signals travel several miles from their transmitters - however this only works in a horizontal direction - the signals can't travel upwards.

..... then you might be on to something....

- Crank-ology I'm afraid. One thing I would have thought that a lot of Americans would have realised is that your governments are pretty crap at staging cover-ups.

Clinton couldn't even cover-up a blow job for Crisakes.

The truth is sinister enough.

Date: 2006/01/26 01:37:05, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
If you are thinking we share similarly highly developed intelligence - then this is probably due to the evolutionaly advantage this is to an animal living in a co-operative social group (especially in co-operative hunting). Communication and language require the development   and growth of specialised parts of the brain.

We are each probably more closely related 'non-social' animals which haven't developed intelligence to the same degree as it doesn't confer evolutionary advantage - and Brains are high maintenance.

We are more closely related to fairly dumb bush-babies for example - whilst dolphins are more closely related to sheep .

The 'Ancestor's Tale' by Dawkins is a great book if you are interested in how closely we are related to other groups. It start with humans and works backwards through time. Various other groups join us on the way back to the beginning of time - as 'pilgrims in the Canterbury Tales' - the 'conceit' of the book.

When we meet up I'll lend it to you Steve - as long as you promise to let me have it back ;)

Date: 2006/01/26 04:53:50, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
mmm.. didn't think it would be as bad as this - although I'm sure the people that put 'Intelligent Design' were going by their interpretation of that phrase alone.

Some ideas for your letter Steve.

- Look at your MP's position on various matters - he is for freedom of choice - and against 'government interference'.

You need to appeal to his 'conservative' tendancies; patriotism; and 'taxpayers money' being spent on 'special interest groups; and possibly the fact that the conservative party is trying to re-brand itself as a modernd progressive party. Most conservatives are very wary of getting involved with the religious right - unlike their American counterparts. They very much see themselves as the 'sensible' party.

You need to throw some questions at him so he has to research the subject to give you an answer.

Keep it as simple and to the point as possible.

Explain you are interested in good science education.

Explain you have been following the debate in America - refer to the Dover decision.

Explain how although you agree with freedom of choice, you are alarmed that 'taxpayers money' could be handed over to special interest groups to promote their particular religious views, and how this can be at the expense of good science teaching for our children.

Say that Darwin is a scientist the UK should be proud of, and good science teaching is vital if we are going to maintain our position as world leaders in science and technology.

Say you understand that the Conservative Party supports the government white paper on education.

Then ask two questions:

Does this include support for the creation of new schools controlled by individuals opposed to good science teaching?

Does the Conservative Party support the teaching of Creationism and 'Intelligent Design Theory' in science classes; as opposed to RE classes?

If it is opposed - will it be asking for assurances that good science teaching will not be compromised if state schools are handed over to other groups to run?


that should do for now - if he comes back with a bland reply you can follow up with a few references.

If by then you find any local examples (of proposed evangelical schools) this might help attract his attention.

Date: 2006/01/26 05:16:48, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Teaching about ID as a political movement for  brighter A Level kids, or University students  might be fine in principle  -once they actually understand how evolution works  - but how many kids actually leave school without really understanding evolution? Is talk of flagellums and Dembskis mathematical constructs going to enlighten or confuse them?
There are only so many hours of teaching time - why allow time set aside for the teaching of science to be spent on defending against non-science.
How about taking up some of the RE time and explaining that Creationism and ID is a 'belief' like many others. I'm not sure that too many RE teachers would be keen on taking up their time on explaining that the Raelians believe in intelligent design, and that we were all made by space aliens.

If you change the national curricullum to allow 'teaching ID as part of the controversy' - how far have you opened the door to schools like Emmanuel College to interpret this as they see fit?

Educating our science teachers so they can answer topical questions would be a good idea - but there are enough problems finding science teachers in the first place.

Date: 2006/01/26 05:33:54, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I e-mailed Dave Scot to ask what his policy was on editing comments - he thanked me for asking and has posted a thread explaining the position:

- where he give links to 'Bill's rules'.

Basically rule number one is:

there is no rule number one...

rule number two is: 'I make the rules up as I go along'

... only now it is DaveScot that is making up the rules as he goes along.

How this can be any kind of forum for meaningful debate escapes me.

But I don't suppose that meaningful debate is what interests them? Whats the point when you know the answer™

Date: 2006/01/26 09:45:02, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
GOP is actually a 'Lab Bench Experiment' of mine...

I am very cruel and unsophisticated - I find an anonymous life-form and then poke it to see what happpens???

apart from the predictable squirming - I don't see much.

Others have tried more respectable ways of getting information..

but they are very patient with him - he can always use the 'runny nose' excuse.

(As someone who has kept a responsible job together whilst suffering from debilitating and life-threatening asthma - I'll hope you forgive the 'cheap shot';).

Gop - you are obviously capable of critical thought, - and consider yourself to be quite clever.

Has it ever occurred to you to put your talents to the common good?

give something of your time for nothing perhaps?

in return you might learn from those less fortunate than yourself...

I'm an Atheist - I don't need a reason to do that kind of thing - I understand you are a Christian? - aren't you supposed to do that kind of thing automatically?

... just wondering????

Date: 2006/01/26 11:21:50, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Hi Steve,

remember that before 'teaching the controversy' - teachers have to teach basic literacy and numeracy.

12 million adults have a lower reading age, than most primary school children are expected to have at age 11.

Isn't it obvious that you have to teach evolution before you can examine the objections to it?

How would the 'challenge any controversy' idea work if you applied this to all subjects? (remember we are talking about secondary aged kids - 14 year olds -)...

What if you could find a few linguists who denied the existance of language - or some that denied the existance of a particular language?

Should all French lessons be prefaced with:

"there is contoversy about language - some people disagree with what the words mean.

.. other people don't like the French, and point out that there are syntactical flaws in their language. Before learning the language we will proceed to a thorough examination of these syntactical flaws.

Tommorow we will be examaning how unlikely it is that these complex and sophisticated cheese-eating surrender monkeys could exist, let alone have a language...

Au Revoir!"

It was fun to watch the Horizon program tonight -  and to see some of the protaganists...

Dembski really does look like that guy that plays the Banjo in 'Deliverence'.....

.. and so cool to see Dover itself and such..

but the 'fairness' of the BBC and the 'graphics and sound men' - just confused the issue rather than shining light - 5 out of 10 BBC.

Attenborough was a star as usual... if they'd handed the whole program over to him -it might have been more educational.

He'll be good for a quote here..

.. good, in fact, for a quote to your MP Steve...

he might have a few letters in his mailbag now, make sure you let him know why you're an informed voice on the subject.

... and to think I missed Celebrity BB for that!!!???

I've got this on VHS - but I'd love the PT'ers in the States to see it...


Date: 2006/01/26 11:33:53, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Nothing about you can be kown all the time you hide behind an Avatar GOP...

So I'm free to work from the information I have from your posts....

I suppose that, if: someone wins a Nobel prize for something that helps the poor, or disadvantaged, in years to come and says: "  .. and I am the Nobel winning scientist formerly known as GOP!"
.. then I could be proved wrong...


do you mind if I stay with my view that you are are a; sad little racist fraud; until I get some empirical evidence to the contrary?

Is there anything you have ever done that you are proud enough to put your real name to for example?

Date: 2006/01/26 11:41:44, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Hey Gop!..

let's choose a 'good cause'and see if we can 'do something' together..

I'll let you nominate  a cause that we both might agree on..

if I don't agree .. I have to get a turn ..

and so on until we can both agree on one 'common cause'

how about giving it a try?

wouldn't it be fun to put our 'brainpower'  together for the common good'?

Date: 2006/01/27 00:49:14, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
.. sounds fair enough on the surface..

... but by 'crusty' do you mean 'white'?
I understood that the ANC were fairly happy with their farmers and weren't proposing massive land reform?
...i'm all for spending a bit on training and education though...

I'm no fan of Mugabe by the way - although I happened to go to school with one of his nieces when she was a refugee - really sweet girl.

Is there a specific charity working in the area you are describing or is this just an idea?

Date: 2006/01/27 00:55:23, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
It was fun to watch the Horizon program tonight -  and to see some of the protaganists...

Dembski really does look like that guy that plays the Banjo in 'Deliverence'.....

.. and so cool to see Dover itself and such..

but the 'fairness and balance' of the BBC and the 'graphics and sound men' - just confused the issue rather than shining light on it - 5 out of 10 BBC.

... and to think I missed Celebrity Big Brother for that!!!???

Attenborough was a star as usual... if they'd handed the whole program over to him -it might have been more educational.

He'd be good for a quote or two.

I've got this on VHS - but I'd love the PT'ers in the States to see it...


Date: 2006/01/27 03:29:32, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I expect it is very  naughty to point this out- but then The BBC is dedicated to public education -

I understand that a search reveals the existance of a bitorrent of the show 'The War on Science' here:

... so don't follow that link if you feel there may be any danger of copyright infringement or anything.

I won't be doing it as I have already seen the show in the UK of course..

Date: 2006/01/27 08:16:30, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
We've been discussing the show here:;t=187

which include a tip on how you can get to see it if you're outside the UK - Most of the the main players included ; Miller, Dembski, Behe, Meyer - footage of Dover..

and an appearance by David Attenborough to top it all off...

If you're interested in the situation in the UK we've been discussing it here:;st=20

Date: 2006/01/27 08:21:28, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
MP's do take notice of what's in their postbag - especially if letters are poleitely written and  seem to come from sane constituents with legitimate concerns.

If nothing else al letter from David Cameron would prompt him (or one of his advisors) to inform himself on the subject.

I'd take the same approach as for Steve Elliot's MP.
You could tell him that Martin Rees the Astronomer Royal and president of the Royal Society is concerned about the state of teaching of Evolution in schools - and that David Attenborough is also concerned.

Date: 2006/01/27 12:27:09, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Warning- practically content free post follows-

nice to see youve got yourself an Avatar sorted out Gop old boy - glad to see I've been an inspiration to you. Nice try at the 'Socratic Irony' but never mind; the Panda is cute anyway - and a picture of a bloke covered in a sheet could be open to misinterpretation I suppose.

Now tell me - do you think this stuff up when you're on: or off: the medication?

You have forgotten to consider the vibrational frequency of the quintessence sphere.

Perhaps these guys had 'forgotten to consider' this because they didn't know you were going to make it up at the time.?

Date: 2006/01/27 12:40:15, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Sorry Mr Fox - I have tried to point out to 'Mr Ghost of Paley' that he should stop wittering on here and get on with his paper for you - but I didn't think my efforts were appreciated?

Mr Cogzoid does say very rude things about my 'content-free posts' and doesn't appreciate I'm trying to help..


anyway not sure about 'Guts to Gametes' - but Mr Gop has had time to get himself a funky little avatar, so I suppose he's achieved something this week.

I am intrigued to see if he has a human side, and whether we might ever find it possible to find some common ground, and even provoke each other into doing something for the common good.

As long as he thinks about that in his spare time I suppose that would be okay wouldn't it?

Date: 2006/01/28 15:14:34, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I wouldn't be at all suprised if he indulges in the oriental practices from time to time - seems to have an uncanny fascination for the blighters. Player of the Pink Oboe if you ask me.

Speaking of which - is that the Parson Bashing the Bishop?

Date: 2006/01/29 13:26:56, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Actually LarrY Fafarman is the resident expert on albatrosses at the Panda's thumb - the fun started on the '1000' post thread:

although Larry's first reference to the Albatross was here.

In truth the 'Albatross around the neck' of the Intelligent Design Hoax are the fundies who just won't shut up.

Nice to see Dave Scot get another ban in on that thread by the way.

Date: 2006/01/30 15:56:08, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Flippin' Heck!

looks like Gop's gone back to Googletrawling for fish again - at least the formatting in of his last post shows his method. <ah! - sorted now I see - appears that Gop couldn't post at the Panda's Thumb - what is it with Trolls and technology?>

And Gop's invention of the wobbly 'quintessance' to fudge a set of data consistant with a much simpler explanation reminds me of the old argument that fossils were laid down in a nice orderly way by the devil to make us all doubt the existence of the creator.

Any doubts that Gop is totally bonkers should have been laid to rest by now.

Date: 2006/01/31 13:38:44, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I caught that one too..

I think Fuller needs therapy - he's clearly in denial over something - and seems to be lashing out because his discipline is under threat from evolutionary psychology.

I reckon his religious education screwed his mind up, myself.

Date: 2006/01/31 22:27:49, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
The convicts have already tried that form of genetic engineering but only ended up talking out of the wrong orifice

Something went wrong in the lab when they found that after a 100 years they still couldn't get a culture...

- {if you think I'm being a little unfair - trust me I get shedloads of this type of thing back from my Aussie brother-in-law}

Date: 2006/02/01 12:28:49, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
We've just stated a forum specifiaclly to discuss ID in the UK, and in particular on keeping it out of schools.

Not much there at the moment - but it's part of the 'Just Science' site which has lot's of background on the UK situation,


Date: 2006/02/02 00:17:33, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Cheers Steve,

I've just mailed the Royal Society to ask why they haven't put out a statement in the way that the AAAS have - more info at:

Date: 2006/02/02 08:28:25, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Some of the British Contributors are trying to get a UK forum together to resist the introduction of ID to the UK - we only started yesterday - so the site is still in development (Smooth grey light is the name of the forum template) - but new contributors are especially welcome...

Date: 2006/02/02 08:35:21, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I'll definitely try those out! :D

In the meantime chaps and chappesses might be interested in a spiffing new UK counterpart to this site - which has the specific objective of keeping ID out of British Schools:

Cucumber sandwich anyone?

Date: 2006/02/02 08:39:56, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I saw this interesting analysis of Creationism on film - which give a neat summary of the Dover events for newbies:

Date: 2006/02/02 16:52:32, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
..we're all busy getting pickled, let me assure you!

Date: 2006/02/07 17:08:38, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Don't be too kind to Gop Steve -

We had all this out here:;t=107

- of course Gop is slippery but I showed his intention to discriminate on the basis of race in his 'modest proposal' qualified him for the OED definition of 'racist'.

He's also quite deceitful - he's just repeated here the assertion by the White Nationalists/Supremacists he quoted was such a fine and dandy piece of work no-one had ever even tried to refute it.

Well he was presented with evidence to the contrary on that thread by Sheik Mahandi. Since he replied to the comment he can hardly plead ignorance now. He is fond of calling me a liar - but perhaps I'll leave you to be the judge of who's lying here.


Back to the Muslim thing - glad to see both the Mad Sheik, the and the fake Druggie Suicide Bomber being locked up - and action being taken against the buggers with the offensive placards.
There has been concerted rabble-rousing going on of course.
For decent information on how all this started this Wiki is excellent:

- and to remember the majority of Muslims aren't extermists, and some want to say sorry:

My anger at another load of religious bigots calmed down a little after reading that.

PS. - I knew a SA 'immigrant' over here and he was a useless lazy bastard -and met loads in Australia - they made sure they kept hold of or got hold a passport so they didn't count as 'immigrants'. They're not all bad though (don't want to be seen to be making 'racist' statements about anyone- even if in my experience they are the craziest divers in the world:D ).


Don't you have a paper to work on GOP?   :p

This thread was supposed to be about Muslims burning embassies after all? not for essays on 'Affirmative Action' all over again - we've already done that one to death.

Date: 2006/02/07 17:26:19, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Every time someone points out a huge leak in Gops Googletrawler he has to go and fish for more patches. He seems to think that if he can find an obscure enough term it might frighten you guys off:

Dirichelt functions indeed

Sticking plasters on wobbly jello an elegant model does not make GoP. I suppose when you've left a great big pile of obscure Googletrawled references on the floor you'll want to stand back and say ha! - understand that!

Why do you bother when your first principle is that you know about the position of the world is from Scripture? Don't tell me you worked out your Geocentresm from Dirichlet functions backwards through wobbly jello and whatever else you've been entertaining these guys with back to the inescapable conclusion that the Earth is at the centre of the universe? How could you - you're still making it up as you go along for Chrissake! ;)

"If your worldview starts with a problematic origin story, everything else is going to be infected," he said...

Now guess who said that Gop ?

Date: 2006/02/07 17:44:01, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Without actually being wrong as such Darwin had a gap in his theory until Mendel came along. 'Blending' of characteristics at each generation would have not have given 'Natural Selection' anything to get it's teeth into. The combination of the two into 'neo-Darwinism' gives the complete theory.

Were you being confrontational about the 'Natural Selection' thing Wesley? or were you going to make a point about sexual selection or something?

Date: 2006/02/08 14:23:06, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Heard about this on Radio 5 this morning. Someone e-mailed in and said 'when can I get a package tour there?'

It is strange that the local people didn't expand their population into that place when there was nothing to stop them. Just about unique and unheard of in fact - Antartica is the only other example I can think of where a terrestrial environment has been untouched by humans.

Date: 2006/02/09 03:29:10, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Don't you have a wobbly Jelly and Sticking plaster 'paper' to Work on Gop? You'd better get on with Googletrawling - those guys on the other thread are starting to get impatient with your stalling.

Date: 2006/02/09 13:09:10, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
i can think of at least 2 species "capable" of doing so right off the top of my head.

sperm whale (eat giant squid, which are quite a bit larger than a human)

killer whale (eat seals and sea lions; equivalent or larger than humans in size).

- but wouldn't a killer whale - well - chew you up a bit?

would make Jonah's survival all the more remarkable!

I suppose a Sperm whale might get you down whole though ?

Date: 2006/02/12 01:24:53, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
'Neutral evolution' seems a bit pedantic to me - a bit like saying that the main change in Wesley R. Elsberry since he started this board is that his water molecules have been exchanged for different water molecules (including some with a different atomic mass) - rather than that he has got a bit older.

Technically correct to say this the 'main' form of change - but in terms of importance in any other sense? - perhaps not.

Date: 2006/02/12 10:51:09, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
The use of the word 'main' in this sense suggests a 'value statement.

If by 'main' you mean:

quantification of base pair changes over time -

but why chose this measure over:

'base pair changes having phenotypic consequences' - or:

'base pair changes resulting in phenotypic consequences susceptible to selection. ( I realise this latter may result in a circular definition).

- we can agree what is happening - but I think the use of the word 'main' is value laden here

Date: 2006/02/14 06:56:23, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
So the answer to the original question is....

after 16 - odd pages .....

Ghost of Paley can't back up his assertions.......

as you're so busy Gop - I won't be expecting you to be spreading your objectionable opinions elsewhere will I now???

Date: 2006/02/15 01:51:16, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
So what was it that made you decide to throw the towel in GOP?
Couldn't find a way to cobble together Dirichelt functions onto your model?
Or just out of your depth?

Date: 2006/02/17 15:44:43, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Few of us slipped orf for a swift beverage to toast that beardy boffin that adorns our tenners -

Prof Dawkins showed up - though I suspect he's more of a fine wine drinker - met up with some Panda Prof that was over this side of the pond.

More pics of our Jolly Japes here:

Date: 2006/02/26 12:01:23, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Maybe you and Richard Dawkins need to increase your language skills.

Main Entry:   formula
Part of Speech:   noun
Definition:   recipe
Synonyms:   blueprint, canon, code, credo, creed, custom, description, direction, equation, form, formulary, maxim, method, modus operandi, precept, prescription, principle, procedure, rite, ritual, rote, rubric, rule, specifications, theorem, way
Source:   Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

This is too easy.


Compact Oxford English Dictionary



 • noun (pl. thesauri /thisawri/ or thesauruses) a book that lists words in groups of synonyms and related concepts.

 — ORIGIN Greek thesauros ‘storehouse, treasure’.

Davey - you obviously don't know the difference between a Thesaurus and a Dictionary ( the key words are 'related concepts' ).

Your inability to distinguish between things is a noticeable trait of course: 'Intelligent Design/Creationism ; Academic Martydom/making a fool of yourself; arse/elbow: being just a few examples.

As you say PicoDavey - too easy.

Date: 2006/02/27 06:21:49, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Quote (tacitus @ Feb. 26 2006,18:53)
Regarding the Guardian story - I was just on the phone to my parents (they live in the UK) and they told me about it and expressed concern that such a thing would be happening.  But I tend to think the concern is overblown.  In the States creationism (incl. ID) has the support of over 50% of the population and so is a tough battle, but the UK has no such constituency.  Sure, there are Muslim and Christian fundamentalists who are willing followers, but they are still very much in the minority (<5% of the population).

Some of the policies of Tony Blair, who is a Christian (probably moreso that Bush, ironically) are not helping--he's in support of providing more public funding to faith-based schools, for example, but I don't think the UK is in danger of becoming a creationist ghetto any time soon.

Although religious zealots are in a minority in the UK some of us here see no reason for complacency - which is why we've set up a UK forum specifically to discuss the issue.

We don't have constitutional protection against teaching nonsense in State schools - and a handful have been taken over by American-inspired evangelicals - and are teaching YEC ( the Vardy schools).

More info can be found on our Science, Just Science forum:

Date: 2006/02/28 13:00:29, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Don't bother waiting - the ridiculous GOP has realised himself he's not so smart after all.

Date: 2006/03/02 16:40:51, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Mr Palin has just come orf one of his travels  - Ripping Yarns what hey!!!???

Date: 2006/03/02 16:47:22, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
- the sudden realisation that that your' jello and sticky tape' world-view was a load of bollocks all along GOP?

This is far too easy! - come out fighting with the racism like you used to GOP!

- or was this just a timewasteing 'drive-by'?

Date: 2006/03/02 17:12:51, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
can I dangle this post of cogzoids to attract your interest you boring old clueless racist, GOP?


Posts: 121
Joined: Sep. 2005

Posted: Jan. 06 2006,20:57  
Dean's content-less posts should be ignored by all.  Let's see some theories, Paley!

.. or do you have something meaningful to add in your next drive by?

Date: 2006/03/05 23:21:53, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I think he looks like the guy who plays the Banjo in 'Deliverance':

Date: 2006/03/07 01:13:28, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Dembski's bog has had some publicity in The Guardian:,,1724337,00.html

here's what I wrote in reply on another forum:

Note that both guys are philosophers - not scientists. Ruse has been getting quite pally with that old fraud Dembski recently - presumably this is how Dembski got hold of these e-mails.

‘When evolutionists attack’? - has the Guardian taken to employing sub-editors from the Sun?
Two philosophers a bit rude to each other doesn’t have the same ring does it?

Still this must be comforting to the mouthbreathers over on Dembski’s blog - they haven’t had much to cheer them up lately.

Anyone else got any helpful observations?

Date: 2006/03/07 16:45:47, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Yup - the language is truly GOPish.

W. Kevin Vicklund?

I don't intend to say that out loud! - Whiter Shade of Paley will do.

Date: 2006/03/08 02:30:52, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Sorry W Kevin - up far too late - too many equations - Brian Hurts

Date: 2006/03/11 05:40:22, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Ah well - My Brian has time for recovery now we have banished the noisome GOP

Date: 2006/03/26 06:22:08, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Just looked at this and it is a really useful resource - I'll do my best to help out but all I've been able to do so far is to post a link to Tara Smith's Blog.

Date: 2006/04/07 13:46:54, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Well Gop now has yet another topic he has to stall on - after being torn to shreds by Martin Brazeau over the transtional fossil fish he said:

"More later."

- now where have we heard that before?

Date: 2006/05/25 03:33:47, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I see that old racist GOP has been drawing attention to himself again.

He still can't come up with a good explanation why the god-fearing US of A is so f**ked up: while us secular multiculturalists in the UK get by like the 'Waltons' in comparison.

Perhaps a (God) fearful country with too many guns isn't a good recipie for success, despite the charms of the constitution.?

Date: 2006/05/25 03:37:18, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Seem that the old racist Paley is on more comfortable ground when he is parading his prejudices than he is making up new physics and biology.

(Actually he got caught with his trousers down and waddled off into the distance.)

Date: 2006/05/25 05:48:00, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Of course - 'Everyone's a little bit racist'

But in Gops case it completely defines his thinking. His justifications for it are as convincing as his cosmology.

Date: 2006/05/25 13:27:39, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
So you have nothing of substance to add GOP?

- no change there then.

Date: 2006/05/27 21:45:09, Link
Author: Dean Morrison the hope that some plant DNA will increase your intelligence perhaps??

Date: 2006/06/11 03:40:53, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
I wondered what had happened to the barmy old racist? Realised you couldn't pull the wool over peoples eyes with the Googletrawled math then GOP?... and you ran away from  'guts to gametes' a long time ago. Thought you might be on safer ground with a bit of racism?

You really are a tiresome old man.

Date: 2006/06/11 03:46:21, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
While you're cobbling that lot together you might as well make a new pair of boots.

Date: 2006/08/05 22:49:06, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Don't tell me that the dreadful Old Whiter Shade of Paley is stil trying to deny he's a racist?

He was rumbled a year ago -

- you're a racist GOP, and no amount of wriggling is going to change the fact - live with it.

Date: 2006/12/04 19:37:09, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
Is the barmy old racist still trolling??...

hope the entertainment's been good, although I rather expect it hasn't.

Date: 2007/04/17 18:54:44, Link
Author: Dean Morrison
'BSc' for bachelor of Science in the UK,

'BS' stands for - 'Bullshit'