Line Numbered Transcripts Index - P800-833
1 Q (Continuing) scope and sequence in the classroom,
2 the presentation of materials in a semester or a year?
3 It's a teaching technique. Scope and sequence. Scope the
4 course, sequence the course. Are you familiar with that?
5 A Are you talking about the over all plan by which you
6 will teach your students during the school year?
7 Q Yes.
8 A Yes.
9 Q Do you follow that sort of technique and that
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q Is that technique and that procedure for you to
13 outline a discussion of all the material in the biology
14 class you will teach, for instance, for the course of a
15 semester or the course for the year?
16 A Well, the entire scope is more or less pre-set in my
17 own mind by the time the school year begins. I may modify
18 my sequence based upon the students' ability to grasp
19 concepts and this type thing.
20 Q As you construct that sequence in conjunction with
21 the scope, do you intend to give balance to all ideas that
22 are recognized in biology or science?
23 A Of course not. We don't even touch on all of the
24 ideas in biology or science,
25 Q In the ideas that you teach where there are
1 Q (Continuing) conflicting theories, do you attempt
2 to give balance?
3 A If there are conflicting theories, and both of those
4 theories, again, comes from the framework of the
5 scientific community, then I think they both have credence
6 and both could and probably should be used.
7 Q Do you do that minute per minute in balance?
8 A There is no law saying that I have to, either.
9 Q As an educator, though, you don't do you?
10 A It's within my own personal discretion. If I feel
11 like both of these have merit, and it does have some
12 significance or meaning to my students, then I will do so,
14 Q And your interpretation of Act 590 is your
15 interpretation, correct? It hasn't been imposed upon you
16 by any higher authority in the sense of the school
17 district or the school Board or anyone else in terms of
18 what is balanced treatment?
19 A I don't understand that question.
20 Q Okay. No one has told you from your— Let me back
21 up. Has your principal, has your superintendent, has the
22 school board, the State of Arkansas or the State Depart-
23 ment of Education of Arkansas told you what balanced
24 treatment is?
25 A No, they have not.
1 Q So what you are testifying today is what you think
2 balanced treatment is?
3 A Well, I might classify that or categorize that
4 answer. According to this Act right here, the State of
5 Arkansas is telling me, I think, what balanced treatment
7 Q But it's your definition?
8 A It's my interpretation of the statements, yes.
9 Q Now, in your educational philosophy, if you teach
10 two ideas in science, in biology, that you think have it
11 validity and merit, do you think you could teach them
12 sound in terms of educational policy or philosophy and not
13 give them minute for minute weight, is that correct?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Then why can't you teach a creation explanation
16 alongside an evolution explanation and not give it minute
17 for minute accountability and still reach that balance?
18 A Because somewhere in here it does say that they will
19 be given equal treatment as a whole.
20 Q In other words, it's your problem, isn't it, Mr .
21 Coward? It's not the State's; it's your problem about
22 how to interpret this Act, is that right?
23 A I'm the one that's got to do it.
24 Q Now, if someone tells you, if the State tells you
25 what is balanced treatment, you can follow that, can't you?
A It will have to be much more explicit than it is in
1 A (Continuing) Act 590, yes.
2 Q If the State told you that the answer to balanced
3 treatment is what you presently do in the classroom now
4 when you weigh out how much time to give to any two
5 conflicting theories in biology, you could accept that and
6 teach it, couldn't you?
7 A I think that would be infringing on the right of
8 academic freedom if I did.
9 Q Why?
10 A The same point I made earlier, I don't think the
11 State should mandate within a given classroom that we do
12 or not do anything or say or not say anything.
13 Q If the State tells you as a professional, which
14 you've testified that you are a professional competent
15 teacher, as a professional competent teacher, you use your
16 best judgment to teach these two concepts and give them
17 balanced treatment as a whole, can you do that?
18 A I could do that if I had concepts that had equal
20 Q Assuming that you had concepts that had equal merit
21 in science, can you do that as an educator?
22 A I could if the concepts had equal merit, yes.
23 Q You said on your direct that balanced treatment
24 requirement of Act 590 affects your credibility as a
25 teacher. I don't understand that. Could you tell me what
1 Q (Continuing) that means?
2 A Well, there again, I assume "balanced" means being
3 impartial in the eyes of my students; not necessarily
4 taking sides on the issue.
5 I feel like if I try to remain impartial and run this
6 through under the guise of science and try to convince my
7 students that this is science and that this is good
8 science, that it all has credibility, I think they will
9 see through me like pea soup.
10 I think, there again, that that destroys my credibility
11 because they depend upon me as a professional educator for
12 some background in this area, some expertise in this area
13 to really decide what is good and what is valid and what
14 is, more or less, current and what is accepted.
15 I would be having to falsify my viewpoints and guard my
16 words so carefully because they would understand that I
17 was doing this.
18 Q I asked you earlier in this cross examination for an
19 explanation of origin. And you gave me an explanation
20 that was predicated on experiments done by Doctor Stanley
21 Miller, right?
22 A It's not an explanation of origin, no.
23 Q It was a statement of feasibility of origin, is that
25 A That's correct.
1 Q All right. We won't quibble on words.
2 I asked you if your students asked you for an explana-
3 tion of origin, I think you responded that this was a
4 statement that you made about the feasibility of life
5 evolving from nonlife, is that right?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q Then I asked you were there any assumptions based on
8 that. What was your answer?
9 A I believe there are no assumptions based on that.
10 Q Then I asked you, do you know for a fact that the
11 earth's atmosphere contained the elements that you
12 identified or the ones we together tried to identify under
13 Doctor Miller's experiments?
14 A I was not there at that time.
15 Q That's correct. You were not.
16 Now, you don't know if that's what the earth's
17 atmosphere contained, correct? Do you tell your students
19 A I tell them that I have to rely upon the best
20 available information.
21 Q Do you tell them about the possible inconsistency or
22 inaccuracy or assumption of that experiment that explains
23 the feasibility of life evolving from nonlife? Do you
24 tell them that?
25 A Would you restate that?
1 Q Yes Do you tell your students when they ask you
2 about the feasibility of life evolving from nonlife, when
3 you tell them about the experiment of Doctor Miller, do
4 you tell them that that experiment may be predicated on
5 the assumption that the elements that were used —
6 ammonia, nitrogen, whatever they were — are assumed to be
7 those that were consistent with the atmosphere at the time
8 that this occurrence occurred four billion years ago or
10 A No, I do not.
11 Q Now, if you don't, if I tell your students that,
12 does that affect your credibility with them?
13 A That, according to what the geophysicists and
14 geologists tell us, though, those were the conditions at
15 that time based on the best information that I have
16 available to me. As a science educator, I have to rely
17 upon the fact that those were the conditions at that time.
18 Q Based on the best information available to you at
19 the time?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Now, do you not make that disclaimer to your
23 A I think it's the general understanding within a
24 classroom that I am not a walking encyclopedia. I did not
25 perform these experimentations or observations myself.
1 A (Continuing) They know that I must pull from other resources;
2 that I am strictly the go-between.
3 Q Did you not just testify, though, it's a general
4 understanding in your classroom that your students look to
5 you to tell them what is correct in science?
6 A They look to me to decide what is the best informa-
7 tion available. There again, if there are conflicting
8 evidences, then I normally relate this, too. That's part
9 of the credibility, too.
10 You also have to point out sometimes the fallacy or the
11 flaws of a given hypothesis or whatever.
12 Q Do you do it with that one experiment? Do you ever
13 point out the fallacy or the flaws or the possibility of
15 A I don't think I do on that particular experiment.
16 Q Have you ever done it?
17 A On that particular experiment?
18 Q Yes.
19 A I don't recall.
20 Q Have you ever given any other statement about the
21 feasibility of life from nonlife other than based on that
23 A No. Because that is not really relevant to my
24 course content, that subject area.
25 Q But when asked, have you ever given any other
1 Q (Continuing) explanation?
2 A Not that I recollect.
3 Q Does that not affect your credibility
4 A I don't believe so.
5 Q Does that not indicate some sort of prejudicial or
6 propagandist type position in terms of an explanation of
7 origins of life from nonlife?
8 A I don't believe so.
9 MR. CLARK: I have no other questions of this
10 witness, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Any redirect?
12 MR. CEARLEY: Very briefly.
14 BY MR. CEARLEY:
15 Q Mr. Coward, I've placed Defendants' Exhibit Number 4
16 back in front of you, which is the entire text of The
17 World of Biology published by McGraw-Hill. Would you look
18 inside the initial flyleaf, please, of that book, Mr.
19 Coward, and tell the Court what the copyright date is on
20 The World of Biology?
21 A It's 1974.
22 Q Will you turn to the first page in chapter 17. It
23 should be about page 393 or 395.
24 A 394, I believe.
25 Q I believe there is a statement of chapter learning
1 Q (Continuing) objective there, is that correct?
2 A Yes, there is.
3 Q What is the title of that chapter?
4 A "The Origins of Living Systems."
5 Q And what's the chapter learning objective?
6 A "Chapter learning objective. The student must be
7 able to complete an examination on the process of organic
8 evolution, including its history as a concept, modern
9 evolutionary synthesis, terminology and evidence bearing
10 upon its validity."
11 Q Now, turn, if you will, over to the portion of that
12 chapter that Mr. Clark had you read from. It appears, I
13 believe, on page 415. In fact, turn to page 414, if you
14 would, the first full paragraph from the top on page 414.
15 Will you read that, please, sir?
16 A "To sum it up, the vast majority of biologists
17 consider the evidence to be overwhelmingly in favor of
18 evolution. That is, that the diversity of organisms is
19 best and most simply explained in terms of evolution.
20 Most scientists, while readily conceding that some of the
21 hypotheses about particular events may have to be modified
22 as new evidence is found, still accept the concept of
23 evolution as one of the most fundamental theories of
25 Q And the next paragraph is titled in bold type,
1 Q (Continuing) "Creationism". Will you read the
2 first three sentences in that, please, sir?
3 A "A few scientists, even today, remain unconvinced,
4 however, holding the view that evolutionary theory does
5 not satisfactorily explain all the facts and that the
6 divine creation of organisms is, at least, as probable.
7 This view is called Creationism is generally ignored in
8 the science textbooks on the grounds that it is not a
9 scientific explanation."
10 Q Will you read the next two sentences, please?
11 A "Thus far, at least, most of the concepts
12 surrounding Creationism have been of the kind accessible
13 to the techniques of the scientific inquiry."
14 Q will you read that sentence again, please, sir, Mr.
16 A "Thus far, at least, most of the concepts
17 surrounding Creationism have not been of the kind
18 accessible to the techniques of the scientific inquiry."
19 Q And the next sentence?
20 A "Consequently, Creationism is generally held to be
21 an unfalsifiable hypothesis. In the words of an American
22 Association for the Advancement of Science, the statements
23 about Creation that are part of many religions have no
24 place in the domain of science and should not be regarded
25 as reasonable alternatives to the scientific explanations
1 A (Continuing) for the origin and evolution of life."
2 Q How does the language which you've just read compare
3 to the treatment of creation science and other biology
4 text that you are aware of in which it is presented?
5 A I would say that the main thrust of this is the same;
6 that it is generally not accepted. It may be
7 acknowledged or mentioned in a given text, but generally,
8 there is the overall viewpoint that some people might hold
9 this view, but it does not come from the realm of the
10 scientific framework and is not acceptable as an
11 alternative theory to evolution.
12 Q Will you look down to the next to the last paragraph
13 in the text on page 414?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Do you see there the second sentence beginning, "For
16 one thing ...
17 A Yes, I do.
18 Q Will you read that, please, sir?
19 A "For one thing, consideration of creationist
20 arguments should help considerably to delineate the nature
21 of science."
22 Q How would it do that?
23 A I think, there again, it would be the point of
24 confusing students to really what is science and what is
25 not, how do we make scientific investigation and inquiry.
1 A (Continuing) I think my students would have a hard
2 time understanding even what science is by the time I got
3 through with the creationist point of view,
4 Q Now, Mr. Coward, will you turn over to page 417 of
5 that book, please? Is that the last page in that chapter?
6 A Yes, it is.
7 Q Does that conclude with a bibliography for further
9 A Yes, it does.
10 Q Will you read the first two sentences in that first
11 paragraph where it says, "For further reading"? It
12 begins, "A mountainous accumulation ...
13 A Okay. "A mountainous accumulation of literature has
14 grown up on the subject of evolution. We have tried to
15 provide only some of the more readable and popular
16 evolutionary works here. Additional references are easily
17 obtained in the card catalogue of any good library. We
18 have taken more pains to obtain a fair sized listing of
19 creationist literature since this is not readily
20 available, and what is available is often irresponsible.
21 Creationist titles are starred."
22 Q How does that statement compared with your review of
23 creation literature?
24 A It's almost as if I had written it.
25 Q And finally, Mr. Coward, will you look down to the
1 Q (Continuing) bibliography, which is in alphabetical
2 order, and after Norman MacBeth, tell the Court who is
3 cited there for further reading on creation?
4 A It would be John Moore and Harold Slusher, who are
5 the authors of this book.
6 Q Which book?
7 A I'm sorry. I'm incorrect on that point.
8 Q They are the authors of what book as shown?
9 A They are authors of the book, Biology: A Search for
10 Order in Complexity.
11 Q That's been entered in the record as Plaintiffs'
12 Exhibit 129, is that correct?
13 A Yes, that's correct.
14 MR. CEARLEY: That's all I have, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Anything else, Mr. Clark?
16 MR. CLARK: Yes, sir. Just one moment.
18 BY MR. CLARK:
19 Q While you have that publication in front, Mr.
20 Coward, there's one little excerpt I'd like for you to
21 read, also. Let's go back to page 414, the final
22 paragraph on that page begins with "finally". Would you
23 read that?
24 A "Finally, we cannot imagine that the cause of truth
25 is served by keeping unpopular or minority ideas under
1 A (Continuing) wraps. Today's students are much less
2 inclined than those of former generations to unquestion-
3 ably accept the pronouncements of authority. Specious
4 arguments can only be exposed by examining them. Nothing
5 is so unscientific as the inquisition mentality that has
6 served, as it thought, the truth, by seeking to suppress
7 or conceal dissent rather than by grappling with it.
8 Therefore, we will briefly state, for those who are
9 interested, several major theses of the creationist
10 position and a few of these questions raised by this
11 dispute. In general, the majority of creationists support
12 their view with most or all of the following arguments."
13 Q There's a list of some six or so arguments?
14 A Six, I believe.
15 Q And on the last page that you read, on page 417 on
16 the various authors, you noted that those materials that
17 were creationist in origin were starred, is that correct?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q Mr. Coward, I asked you if you'd done any
20 independent research to see if there was any scientific
21 validity to a creation explanation. I think your answer
22 was no. Is that not correct?
23 A That is correct.
24 Q Would you read now about two thirds of the way down
25 to an article entitled, "Kenyon, Dean Kenyon and Gary
1 Q (Continuing) Steinman? What is the title of that?
2 A "Biochemical Predestination."
3 Q Who is it published by?
4 A It's McGraw-Hill in New York.
5 Q When is it dated?
6 A 1969.
7 Q If I told you Mr. Kenyon had been on the list of the
8 witnesses the State would call to prove the creation
9 explanation of first life or of origin, would you say
10 that's a noncreationist publication
11 A Not necessarily.
12 Q Would you say by definition of this text it is?
13 A (No response)
14 Q It either is or it isn't, Mr. Coward.
15 A I'm not sure exactly what you are asking.
16 Q This text said that those pieces of literature which
17 were creationist would be starred, did it not?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q Is that one starred?
20 A No, it is not.
21 Q Would that be a representation in the scientific
23 A According to the people who did the starring on this
24 page, yes.
25 MR. CLARK: Thank you.
1 THE COURT: You can step down, Mr. Coward.
2 Mr. Cearley?
3 MR. CEARLEY: Mr. Bill Wood.
4 Your Honor, Mr. Gary Crawford will handle the direct
5 examination of Mr. Wood.
8 called on behalf of the plaintiffs herein, after having
9 been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and
10 testified as follows:
12 BY MR. CRAWFORD:
13 Q Would you state your full name for the record,
15 A My name is William Carroll Wood.
16 Q And would you tell us your age and occupation?
17 A I'm 37 years of age. I am a science teacher at John
18 L. McClellan High School in the Pulaski County Special
19 School District.
20 Q What is your educational and professional background
21 A My educational background is that I have a Bachelor
22 of Science Degree in zoology from the University of
23 Arkansas. I am currently working on my Master's Degree in
24 educational administration at the University of Arkansas.
25 And I have twelve hours of graduate credit in physics
1 A (Continuing) dealing primarily with the teaching of
2 high school physics concepts.
3 Q You presently teach what, physics and chemistry?
4 A Yes, I do.
5 Q At what level?
6 A This is primarily to the eleventh and twelfth grade
7 level in public high school.
8 Q Are you a member of any professional organizations?
9 A Yes, I am. I am a member of the Arkansas Education
10 Association, National Education Association, the Pulaski
11 Association of Classroom Teachers. I am a member of the
12 National Science Teachers Association, and until recently
13 was a member of the Arkansas-Oklahoma-Kansas Society of
14 Physics Teachers.
15 Q And would you tell me just briefly if you received
16 any honors or awards?
17 A With respect to teaching?
18 Q Yes.
19 A In 1974, I was named an outstanding young educator
20 by the Little Rock Jaycees. In 1975, I was honored as
21 being selected as an outstanding physics teacher in the
22 Arkansas-Oklahoma-Kansas Society, area of the Society of
23 Physics Teachers.
24 That same year I was selected as one of one hundred
25 physics teachers nationwide to be so honored to go to Bell
1 A (Continuing) Laboratories in New Jersey to a
2 science recognition and symposium. And recently, this
3 school year, I was named as the outstanding teacher in the
4 Pulaski County Special School District.
5 Q Mr. Wood, when was the first time you heard about
6 creation science?
7 A The first time that I heard about creation science
8 was with regard to an action that took place at our
9 particular school board meeting last January. At this
10 school board meeting, it is my understanding that Mr.
11 Larry Fisher made a proposal to the school board to
12 involve a unit on creation science.
13 Q I pass you what has been marked as Plaintiffs'
14 Exhibit 28 for identification. Could you tell me, please,
15 what that is?
16 A This is a copy of the materials or the proposal that
17 Mr. Fisher made at this presentation to the school board.
18 Q And have you compared Exhibit 28, at my request, to
19 the model resolution written by Wendell Bird and published
20 by the Institute for Creation Research which is a part of
21 Exhibit 83 previously admitted in this case?
22 A Yes, I have.
23 Q What did you find?
24 A I found that they were identical in scope and in
25 content. The only difference that I saw was the addition
Page is missing
1 MR. CRAWFORD: (Continuing) committee which I've just
2 asked him about. He was elected spokesperson of it before
3 the school board. And I will interrogate him only about
4 those matters.
5 THE COURT: Go ahead.
6 MR. CRAWFORD: (Continuing)
7 Q Who were the members of that committee, in a general
9 A Well, it was my understanding, if I may continue my
10 answer, it was my understanding then that the school board
11 members or the school board directed the administration to
12 form a committee and look into the matter of formulating a
14 I was then contacted as to my desire, if I wanted to
15 serve on such a unit, on such a committee, and I did. We
16 held a meeting, at which time we generally discussed why
17 we were there, and that's when I first saw this.
18 Q You are referring to Exhibit 28?
19 A Yes.
20 We were given materials by Larry Fisher at that time,
21 and we were to look at these materials for— I believe
22 the time span between the first meeting and the second
23 meeting of our committee was about two weeks, at which
24 time we were supposed to come back and make a report on
25 what we had found.
1 Q Who were the members of the committee?
2 A Well, I don't remember all of their names
3 particularly, but they work for different regions within
4 our public schools. There were teachers of science on the
5 high school and junior high level. There were central
6 administrative personnel — I believe at that meeting
7 Doctor Harold Measel, assistant superintendent there
8 was a curriculum person; there was a science coordinator,
9 a social studies coordinator, a person from our media
10 area, and a school board member.
11 Q Now, this was before Act 590 was even introduced
12 into the State Legislature?
13 A Yes, that's true.
14 Q Which creation science books did you examine, did
15 the committee examine?
16 A I have before me a list of these books. I did not
17 remember all of these, and this has been drawn up as an
18 effort of two or three people for us to remember what
19 books were on this list.
20 Q After reviewing that list, you now have a general
21 recollection that those were among the books that were
22 examined by the committee?
23 A Yes, I do.
24 Q Would you please read the list of those books? And
25 I think we have provided to you next to the name of the
1 Q Which books did you examine in detail yourself?
2 A I examined the first two, I believe.
3 Q That's The Age of the Earth by Slusher, which is
4 Exhibit 73?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field by
8 A Yes.
9 Q Those are the two.
10 Were you in the courtroom when Doctor Dalrymple
12 A Yes, I was.
13 Q Are those the two books that he mentioned in his
14 testimony or do you recall?
15 A I recall that he mentioned some books. I do not
16 recall all that he mentioned, no.
17 Q As a result of the conclusions that the committee
18 reached, what did the committee do?
19 A The committee then made a report back to the school
20 board, and I was elected spokesman to do so.
21 Q And what report did you make to the school board on
22 behalf of the committee?
23 A I made the report that we could not draw up a unit
24 on creation science because we couldn't find any evidence
25 for creation science in the materials that had been
1 A (Continuing) presented to us. We couldn't find any
3 Q All right. Nevertheless, the school board directed
4 that a unit be written, is that correct?
5 A That is my understanding.
6 Q And another committee, a committee of two persons
7 was subsequently appointed to do that?
8 A Yes, that's right.
9 Q Mr. Wood, are you familiar with the provisions of
10 Act 590?
11 A Yes.
12 MR. CRAWFORD: If your Honor please, before I go
13 into that, I would like to move the admission of the
14 Exhibits which Mr. Wood referred to that previously have
15 not been submitted. That's Exhibits 71, 72, 73, 77, 79,
16 80, 81 and 82.
17 THE COURT: Those will be received.
18 MR. CRAWFORD: (Continuing)
19 Q Mr. Wood, have you read and analyzed Act 590 to
20 determine what the Act will require of you as a classroom
22 A Yes, I have.
23 Q Have you made an effort to determine whether or not
24 the subject matter in your physics or chemistry classes
25 will trigger the balanced treatment requirement of Act 590?
1 A Yes, I have.
2 Q And what conclusions have you reached?
3 A I have reached the conclusion that there are several
4 general areas, both in chemistry and in physics, which
5 could, indeed, trigger Act 590.
6 Q Could you tell us in a brief fashion what those are
7 in each course?
8 A Yes. In chemistry, there are concepts at the
9 beginning of most every textbook that deals specifically
10 with measuring techniques. And in those measuring
11 techniques, the textbook may or may not, depending on the
12 type, on the book that you are using, may mention the
13 concept of measuring great distances in space in terms of
14 light years.
15 There is another area in chemistry which may be
16 included, which would be any science or chemical investi-
17 gations of fossil fuels and their origins. There may also
18 be in general chemistry text chapters relating to or
19 concepts dealing with the concept of radioactivity.
20 In physics, again, most every science book speaks in
21 general about the types of measurements that will be made
22 in that particular field. And in physics, once again, the
23 area of measurement which would involve great distances,
24 the mention of light years.
25 If you deal in any way with astronomy concepts, if you
1 A (Continuing) were to deal with the concept of the
2 Doppler effect, which the Doppler effect can be used to
3 show and has been used to show the tremendous distances
4 that exist in space; also in radiometric dating methods,
5 particular Carbon-14. And these are the general areas in
6 which these might be presented.
7 Q And do those areas all necessarily require a
8 discussion or understanding by the student that the earth
9 and, indeed, the universe is very, very old?
10 A Yes. I think that that would be a conclusion of
11 some of the information in the texts.
12 Q Now, you've identified those areas that you believe
13 would trigger the balancing requirement of Act 590. As an
14 educator reading the Act, what, in your opinion, would you
15 be required to do as a classroom teacher?
16 A I believe in these areas I would be required to give
17 balanced treatment.
18 Q Again, as a science educator, what do you think
19 "balanced treatment" means?
20 A Balanced treatment, to me, means equal dignity and
21 equal treatment. It requires me to spend the same amount
22 of time or the same amount of effort in developing a
23 concept. It requires me to have a basis for incorporating
24 it into our body of knowledge. It requires me to make
25 sure that I am totally objective in my presentation.
1 Q Well, whatever balanced treatment means, how do you
2 feel as a science educator about having to give balanced
3 treatment to creation science?
4 A Well, I don't like it because I don't think it's
5 science. I think it's religion.
6 Q What makes you think that?
7 A Well, if you refer to the Act in Section 4(a), the
8 only theme that I can see that is weaved through any of
9 these concepts are the concepts that one would find in the
10 Bible in Genesis.
11 Q You're talking about the six items that make up the
12 definition of creation science in Section 4(a) of Act 590?
13 A Yes, I am.
14 Q As an educator, do you find that you must use some
15 sort of unifying theme for the presentation of fact in
16 your courses?
17 A Yes. This is a most important aspect of science.
18 Science cannot be a shotgun approach to information. My
19 personal methods of teaching is something that I call the
20 spiral approach.
21 We start off with basic information, of which we have an
22 understanding. And through the scope of our year, we add
23 to that information. And we build— If you can imagine
24 drawing a spiral spring, and the spiral goes upward. We
25 cover the same or keep coming back to the same conceptual
1 A (Continuing) ideas of science and see how these
2 ideas are tied together in a unifying idea.
3 And what I attempt to do is increase the students'
4 knowledge both in depth of his actual world and in the
5 breadth of it, how can we once again apply this same idea
6 to include more of what we see in the world around us.
7 Q What appears to you— As an educator, again, what
8 appears as the unifying theme of creation science as it is
9 defined in the Act?
10 A The unifying theme is Genesis.
11 Q Do you perceive that the Creator plays an important
12 role in that definition?
13 A From my standpoint of how I treat material in the
14 science classroom, a spiral attempting or attempting to
15 make a spiral out of these six items, would point to a
16 creator, whereas a spiral using naturalistic ideas point
17 to and give a better understanding of the naturalistic
19 Q If Act 590 is found to be constitutional, what would
20 you choose to do in your classroom?
21 A I would choose not to teach these areas that I think
22 would trigger the Act.
23 Q What's the effect of that going to be on your course
25 A Well, I thought about that some. And some of the
1 A (Continuing) effects are going to be that it can be
2 detrimental to the students. And the reason it can be is,
3 I don't believe that we can get a total spiral picture or
4 the student cannot have presented to him a total spiral
5 picture of the inner workings and inner weavings of
6 science concept.
7 This may affect him later. I have no evidence to prove
8 this, out there may be some effect later when this
9 student— As many as I have that go on to college, there
10 may be some effect detrimentally.
11 Q You do consider yourself a professional classroom
12 educator, do you not?
13 A Yes, I do.
14 Q In your opinion, what sort of responsibility does a
15 professional educator have toward the students in the
17 A The scope of that is tremendous. I believe that as
18 a professional educator I have an academic responsibility
19 to my students to present them to the best of my abilities
20 those materials that are, deemed as the ideas that are
21 consistent with a community of science ideas.
22 I must use materials that I have, I think, anyway, have
23 been scrutinized, have weathered the test of time and are
24 accepted in the scientific community.
25 I can't very simply teach things because I have a
1 A (Continuing) captive audience. That would not be
2 academic responsibility in any way in my understanding of
3 the term.
4 Q How do the provisions of Act 590 fit into that
5 analysis of your professional responsibility
6 A Well, Act 590, I believe, makes a mockery of that.
7 Q Would you feel comfortable answering questions from
8 your students about matters that would trigger the
9 balancing requirement?
10 A I would feel very shaky about doing something like
11 that because it requires balanced treatment. And the
12 balanced treatment requires me to have the material to
13 give the same sort of basic understanding to this idea.
14 So I would not feel good about answering spontaneous
15 questions that might trigger it.
16 Q How easy is it for a teacher in the public schools
17 to get into trouble because of what he or she says in the
19 A I don't know that I have any basis of drawing that
20 conclusion. We have ways, administrative ways of
21 correcting deficiencies. Our school board has rules and
22 regulations that we follow.
23 And I'm sure that in the violation of these, a teacher
24 could certainly get in trouble, if that's the way I under-
25 stand you are phrasing the question.
1 Q Mr. Wood, are you a scientist yourself?
2 A No, I am not a scientist. I'm a science teacher.
3 And I see that I am on, if I might use a comparison there,
4 different rungs of the ladder. I'm a disseminator. I try
5 to give to students who are coming to me with, not with a
6 variety of backgrounds, but within those backgrounds,
7 their science levels are not all the same. Their mathe-
8 matical levels are not all the same.
9 And it is my job on my rung of the ladder to start
10 building in these students scientific ideas, how science
11 works and what science is.
12 I don't consider myself to be a practicing scientist. I
13 consider myself as a practicing teacher.
14 MR. CRAWFORD: Thank you.
15 THE COURT: Is that all, Mr. Crawford?
16 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: We will take a recess until— I suppose
18 we need to take up this matter about the witnesses. We
19 will be in recess until 1:30, and I would like to speak
20 with the attorneys in my office and Judge Byrd at 1:00
21 o'clock, if we could.
22 (Thereupon, Court was in
23 recess from 12:05 p.m.
24 until 1:30 p.m.)
1 (In Chambers - 1:00 p.m.)
2 THE COURT: Judge Byrd, I did an in camera review of
3 these materials. And this material was just loose. I
4 don't know to which file it belongs.
5 JUDGE BYRD: They were originally segregated.
6 MR. CLARK: They were all in one group as one
8 MS KERR: I think that's Mr. Hunt's.
9 JUDGE BYRD: To be candid with the Court, we don't
10 mind them having this information. To be candid with the
11 Court, I talked it over with my folks. They asked for all
12 of our records.
13 Now, in Reverend Blount's records, if I can pull it, I
14 believe it's three letters.
15 THE COURT: I looked at these, and—
16 JUDGE BYRD: Reverend Blount is the only one—
17 THE COURT: Let me finish. I looked at these, and
18 those are things which appear to be in some respects kind
19 of personal and part of some letters from some people who
20 were supporters. And I didn't see that they were
21 particularly relevant.
22 JUDGE BYRD: There is one letter in there that might
23 be a little— If I can leave these out, there may be one
24 more that may affect my folks?
25 THE COURT: Here is the material from Mr. Hunt's
1 THE COURT: (Continuing) file.
2 JUDGE BYRD: Now, the files belong to these folks.
3 We are willing for folks to copy them, but we want the
4 files back. We don't mind those.
5 MS KERR: Your Honor, we obviously haven't had a
6 chance to see what those documents are. To the extent
7 that they deal with the efforts made by these people to
8 communicate with the legislature and to lobby and gain
9 support for the bill, we think they are relevant.
10 THE COURT: We can make this a long drawn out thing
11 or not, out let me tell you, you don't care about what's
12 in there . And if you want to insist on it, we will go
13 ahead and go through the whole process, but I promise you,
14 you aren't the least bit interested in that. If you are
15 willing to take my word for that, that will save a lot of
17 MR. CEARLEY: We are willing to do that, your Honor.
18 JUDGE BYRD: As far as Ms. Kerr is concerned, I will
19 sit down and go over it with her if she wants to make an
20 objection. We just don't want them out for general
22 MS KERR: Let me point out that I offered to
23 stipulate to the confidentiality of these documents at the
24 very first instance.
25 JUDGE BYRD: Well, I understand your stipulation,