Line Numbered Transcripts Index - P062-099
1 A (Continuing[Covered]groups, but they
2 are something[Covered]ague or something
3 like that[Covered]eague, whatever,
4 the Bible Cr[Covered]of groups.
5 I might say[Covered]the question.
6 Q Would you[Covered]tion, sir.
7 MR. SIANO: Your Honor, I would object, since there
8 is a proper form to present a deposition to a witness, and
9 I would suggest to Mr. Campbell that he might ask the
10 witness if he recalls the particular question and answer.
11 I would object to this method of questioning my witness,
12 and particularly approaching it in this way.
13 THE COURT: Why don't you follow the procedure.
14 MR. CAMPBELL: (Continuing)
15 Q Professor Marsden, do you recall my asking you the
16 question, "Just so we can get this straight, and I don't
17 want to go back and repeat what we've talked about in
18 terms of your expertise, but will you be talking about
19 contemporary Fundamentalism, or Fundamentalism as it
20 exists today, or will you be narrowing your testimony to
21 fundamentalism at the beginning of the nineteenth century,
22 1920 or 1930."
23 And do you recall your answer to that?
24 A No, I don't.
25 Q (Reading) "I think, I guess I'll be emphasizing
1 Q (Continuing) Fundamentalism up to 1920 or 1930.
2 Perhaps--It depends on what I'm asked, I guess.
3 But suggesting there might be some connection with what
4 is going on today, but not presenting myself as an expert
5 on what is going on today, in that sense, or as a strong a
6 sense as I would from a historical source of things."
7 Do you recall that statement?
8 A Clearly at the time you were asking the question, I
9 was a bit off the guard. What I said was, they will be
10 emphasizing Fundamentalism of the Twenties or Thirties.
11 Perhaps, it depends on what I'm asked, I'm not as much an
12 expert on Fundamentalism today as I am in the past. Not in
13 as strong a sense.
14 So I meant to be qualifying it. At that time I wasn't
15 clear what was being asked of me or expected of me. I'm
16 willing to present myself as an expert an Fundamentalism
17 up to the 1930's, and to a somewhat lesser degree, I must
18 confess, at least somewhat of an expert on Fundamentalism
19 since then..
20 There are degrees of being experts.
21 MR. CAMPBELL: Your Honor, we would move to limit
22 Professor Marsden's expertise up to 1930 in the area of
24 THE COURT: It's overruled.
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continuing)
2 BY MR. SIANO:
3 Q Professor Marsden, you have continued to study
4 Fundamentalism right up until today, haven't you?
5 A Yes, I have.
6 Q And from your perspective as a church's authority,
7 isn't that correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Now, did you, because your book stops at 1930, stop
10 to your research at 1930?
11 A No, I did not stop my research at 1930.
12 Q Now, did I engage your services in 1981 as an
14 A Yes, you did.
15 Q And as to what subject matter?
16 A On the history of Fundamentalism.
17 Q Any particular other topic?
18 A The history of Fundamentalism as it relates
19 particularly to Act 590.
20 Q Professor, could I ask you to describe for me the
21 circumstances of the development of the movement which we
22 describe as Fundamentalism in America?
23 A Fundamentalism is a movement that began as a
24 coalition primarily among evangelical Protestants in the
25 late nineteenth century. The distinguishing feature of
1 A (Continuing) Fundamentalists that distinguishes
2 them from related religious movements is their militancy
3 in opposition to what they called at the time Modernism,
4 which meant certain ideas that were pervasive in modern
5 secular culture, and equally to certain modern
6 esthesiologies that they saw as incorporating the secular
7 ideas into Christianity.
8 So the militancy in opposition to Modernism became the
9 distinguishing factor that brought together concerned to
10 evangelicalists from a variety of other traditions.
11 Q Did this movement of Fundamentalism have any other
13 A Yes. It had what it would describe as positive
14 goals of evangelization, converting people to Christianity.
15 Q And that's how you would define that term
17 A That's correct.
18 Q Would you also describe it as spreading the faith?
19 A Yes. Certainly.
20 Q Could you describe furthers the development of
21 Fundamentalism again, starting in the mid-nineteenth
23 A Sure. One has to go back to about a hundred years
24 ago and imagine the condition of America at that time,
25 which was a nation pervaded by a Protestant evangelical
1 A (Continuing) ethos. Protestant evangelicalism had
2 a special position in America because of its being here
3 first, primarily, and the revivalism of the nineteenth
5 For instance, in the public schools in the mid and
6 latter nineteenth century, it was characteristic to use
7 McGuffey's Readers. And in McGuffey's Readers, there were
8 explicit Protestant principles taught. There were lessons
9 like, "The Bible - The Greatest of All Books," or "My
10 Mother's Bible," or "Observance of the Sabbath Rewarded."
11 And these sorts of doctrines were the standard American
12 doctrine equated often with being a good American.
13 Now, it's in that context that there are a number of
14 shocks that hit this Evangelical ethos in America. And
15 they combined social factors of change with very
16 spectacular intellectual changes that hit here roughly at
17 the same time, in the period from about 1870 through 1900.
18 The social changes were those associated with vast
19 immigration, the tremendous growth of the cities, and the
20 shift of the center of gravity toward the cities from the
21 countryside, and the general increase of pluralism in an
22 Industrial society.
23 In that context of social change then hit also higher
24 criticism of the Bible, which had been developing in
25 Germany since about 1800. And then more or less at the
1 A (Continuing) same time, here comes Darwinism, which
2 was taken by some people, at least, to be an implicit
3 attack on the veracity of the Bible.
4 Those factors converged, and different religious people,
5 different Protestants reacted in different ways. And
6 there were a group of them who decided that the best
7 defense was to take a strong stand at the most secure
8 position, which was a defense of the literal
9 interpretation of the Bible; concede nothing to modern
10 thought, defend the Bible at every point.
11 Those people who did that and who did it militantly, in
12 opposition to other religious groups and the secularists,
13 began to feed into the coalition that came to be known as
15 There were, in this development, several traits of the
16 Fundamentalist, emergence of the Fundamentalist movement.
17 There were several sub-movements. One important one was
18 the emergency of a theology, basically an interpretation
19 of prophecy called dispensationalism.
20 Dispensationalism is relevant to this case in this
21 respect: That its hermeneutical principle, that is, its
22 principle of interpreting the Bible is the principle,
23 literal when possible.
24 And many Fundamentalists became dispensationists. Not
25 all. But dispensationalism was symptomatic of a tendency
1 A (Continuing) of people to say, in the late
2 nineteenth century, the literal interpretation of the
3 Bible is the best defense against modern thought.
4 Sometimes also, though not as much as usually is
5 imagined, opposition to Darwinism became a tenet of these
6 people who were defending literal interpretation.
7 Particularly in the South in the late nineteenth century,
8 Darwinism began to be a symbol of secularism, though this
9 didn't spread to the North until a somewhat later date.
10 Q Did it in fact spread to the North at a later date?
11 A Yes, it did. It gradually developed in the North,
12 or there were advocates saying that Darwinism was
13 necessarily antagonistic to Christianity right from the
14 start. I would say most Bible believing evangelicals in,
15 say, 1870, 1880, would have said Darwinism and literal or
16 conservative Biblical interpretations are to some degree
17 compatible. Not fully compatible, but given certain
18 amendments to one or the other, you could make them
20 It's not until the period basically following World War
21 II that it becomes a large scale factor in Fundamentalism
22 in the North to oppose evolutions.
23 Q Did you say World War II?
24 A I'm sorry. If I did, I meant to say World War I
25 Q Focusing on the period following World War I, did
1 Q (Continuing) the Fundamentalist assault on
2 evolution come to the forefront at that time?
3 A That's correct. What happens is, before World War
4 I, as I was saying, Fundamentalists sometimes emphasized
5 opposition to evolution. But it was World War I that
6 rather dramatically brings us to the fore.
7 And it involved -- the story is, very briefly -- during
8 World War I there was a tremendous propaganda effort
9 against Germany. And the war was considered to be the war
10 to save civilization from barbarism. The war would make
11 the world safe for democracy.
12 In that context, American propaganda emphasized that the
13 reason why Germany had turned to barbarism was the
14 evolutionary philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche, and that
15 might be the right philosophy, as they said, was what
16 accounted for Germany's losing its Protestant Christian
17 heritage. The birthplace of Protestantism now turned to
19 Well, Fundamentalists picked this up, people like Bryan
20 picked this up and said the same thing could happen here.
21 And after World War I there was period much like the
22 period today, where there was a sense of general unease
23 for the progress of American civilization.
24 There was a sense that something had gone wrong; a
25 rather indefinite sense, not a real disaster, much like
the 1980's, it seems to me. And in that context, that
1 A (Continuing) saying evolution is a problem was
2 something that became convincing to a wide variety of
4 So out of that World War I concern for the progress of
5 civilization, evolution began to emerge as a symbol of the
6 Fundamentalists fight against secularism.
7 Q Could you describe for me how the Fundamentalists
8 waged this campaign against evolution in this country?
9 A Primarily by working for legislation in the public
10 schools by getting state legislatures to pass acts banning
11 the teaching of evolution in the public schools.
12 They also worked within universities and colleges
13 sometimes to try to prevent the teaching of evolution, and
14 sometimes within their own schools they made them.
15 Now, usually for the first time anti-evolution became a
16 test of whether you were in or out.
17 Q Were Fundamentalists also pursuing this goal of
18 evangelization that you described earlier in your
19 testimony at this time?
20 A Certainly. That's correct.
21 Q Was there a model of origins put forward by
22 Fundamentalists during the 1920's?
23 A Yes, there was.
24 During the 1920's, Fundamentalists made it very clear
25 that the only adequate source for knowing about the
1 A (Continuing) questions of the origin of the
2 universe or the origins of the human race was the Bible.
3 The Bible alone was, after all, one of the hallmarks of
4 the whole Protestant heritage that they were defending.
5 The Bible alone was the source of knowing about evolution.
6 And God was the only person who was there, and so forth.
7 Q I'm sorry?
8 A God alone was the only source for knowing about
9 creation. And God was the only person there. And so to
10 learn about it, we have to read about that in the Bible.
11 There were one or two people, two at least, who were at
12 that time trying to marshal scientific evidence to fit a
13 very conservative reading of the Bible. A man named G.M.
14 Price, and another man named Harry Rimer were the primary
15 defenders of pitting scientific investigation into this
16 literal interpretation.
17 Q Did all Fundamentalists derive this scientific
18 constructive origins from the literal interpretation of
19 Genesis at that time?
20 A Yes, they did, though there are degrees of
21 literalism. One of the interesting factors is that,
22 William Jennings Bryan, at the time of the Scopes trial,
23 was a Biblical literalist. But as many Biblical
24 literalists were at that time, he was convinced that the
25 days referred to in Genesis One could be long periods of
1 A (Continuing) time.
2 For instance, " God rested on the seventh day." He did
3 not just rest for twenty-four hours, he rested for a
4 longer period of time, so the days of creation could be
6 Bryan said at the trial, `It seems to me just as easy to
7 believe that God created the world in six million years,
8 six hundred million years, whatever you want, as to
9 believe he created it in six days.' The length of
10 creation at that time wasn't considered to be a necessary
11 tenet of literalism. It is only since then that a certain
12 group of Fundamentalists has made that into a special test.
13 Q So what you're saying, then, Professor, is the
14 interpretation of the Biblical account of origins became
15 even more literalistically interpreted by Fundamentalists
16 after 1920?
17 A That's correct. What happened was that opposition
18 to evolution became more and more a symbol and a test of
19 being in or out of the true Fundamental faith.
20 And so in that sort of context was the tendency to drive
21 out middle positions. And what the history of the
22 development of Fundamentalism and evolution is the history
23 of driving out the middle positions until you end up with
24 only two positions: One, creationism, and everything else
25 in the world, any others view, is some species of
1 A (Continuing) compromise with evolution.
2 Q That mental process, from a church historian's point
3 of view, could you describe that as dualism?
4 A Well, it ends up with a very dualistic outlook, yes.
5 Q Thank you.
6 What happened to this Fundamentalist movement
7 particularly focused on the-- focusing on origins between
8 the 1930's and up until about the 1950's?
9 A During the 1930's, Fundamentalism after the Scopes
10 trial tended to be a rebuilding, forming independent
11 groups and churches and so forth, and working, shoring up
12 its own resources. And by about the 1940's and `50's,
13 there begins to be a very perceptible split within the
14 Fundamentalist movement.
15 The split is a split that is called, the one party, the
16 more moderate party came to be known as
17 neo-evangelicalism. On the other hand, the
18 Fundamentalists who wanted to preserve the Fundamentalist
19 division became more and more hard line, more and more
20 insisting on the classic tenets of Fundamentalist faith.
21 Q Did the more moderate view have an opposite number,
22 if I might use that expression, in the area of scientific
24 A Yes. The more moderate view involved people who
25 continued to say that, as has been done since the
1 A (Continuing) inception of Darwinism, that there were
2 ways of being faithful to the infallibility of the Bible,
3 even the inerrancy of the Bible, that did not necessarily
4 rule out all process in God's way of creating; that it's a
5 false choice between evolutionism on the one hand and
6 creationism on the other hand. And many of the
7 neo-evangelicals in the 1950's and since then have
8 emphasized that, particularly in an organization known as
9 the American Scientific Affiliation.
10 Q As a church historian, Professor Marsden, do you see
11 any essential similarity between the Fundamentalism of the
12 late 1920's and Fundamentalism today?
13 A There's a great deal of, both similarity and
14 continuity. The main contours of the movement are the
15 same. That is, militant opposition to what was called
16 modernism, what has now come to be called more likely
17 secular-humanism, continues to be the glue that brings
18 together a coalition.
19 On the periphery of the movement, of course, there is
20 some variety. Any movement that has been around as long
21 as Fundamentalism has some change. For instance, the
22 hardening of the categories kind of phenomenon just
23 described tends to be one of the changes that has taken
24 place since the 1920's.
25 In many respects, there is a striking similarity.
1 Q Is there any similarity between the Fundamentalist
2 movement of the 1920's and Fundamentalism today, with
3 reference to the view of the factual inerrancy of the
4 Genesis account of creation?
5 A Yes, there is. There continues to be an emphasis on
6 Genesis and the literal interpretation of Genesis as the
7 primary source of our knowledge about the origins. And as
8 I said, more emphasis on this being a young earth, a
9 twenty-four hour day, six day creation.
10 Q Now, at the time that Fundamentalist Christians were
11 coping with modernism as you described it from a
12 historical perspective, were other groups in America
13 to coping in different ways?
14 A That's correct. There's a whole spectrum of opinion
15 among Christians relating to the question of origins,
16 evolution, and the like. And in that spectrum, you name
17 it, you can find any variety of relating Christianity to
19 Q Is there any particular number of points which
20 defined Fundamentalism from a historical perspective?
21 A No, there's not. Fundamentalists emphasized certain
22 fundamentals of the faith. That has something to do with
23 the origin of the term "Fundamentalism". Views like the
24 virgin birth were defended as fundamentals of Christianity.
1 A (Continuing) It used to be thought that there were
2 just five fundamentals around with which the movement had
4 In fact, that turned out to be an error made by the
5 first historian of the movement, a man named Stewart Cole
6 in 1931. Some years ago, about ten years ago, that was
7 discovered to be a sort of mythology, that there were five
8 points of Fundamentalism.
9 In fact, sometimes there were fourteen points, sometimes
10 there were five, sometimes there were seven; sometimes
11 there were different numbers for different groups. There
12 were some groups that didn't even have a list.
13 Q Did you find that Fundamentalism was embraced only
14 by Protestants in this country?
15 A No. It's a coalition at the heart of which are
16 evangelical Protestants, primarily in the revivalist
17 tradition. But that coalition has brought into it people
18 from other groups, Catholics, Mormons, even sometimes
19 conservative Jews, Seventh Day Adventists. Certainly all
20 sorts of people might come into the Fundamentalist
21 movement as they become militantly opposed to some aspect
22 of modern religion.
23 Q In the course of your studies as a religious
24 historian, are you familiar with the phrase "religious
1 A Yes.
2 Q Do you have a definition which you might make
3 reference to at this point of that phrase?
4 A Religious apologetics is simply an attempt to defend
5 the faith against its critics.
6 Q Were the Fundamentalists in the historical period
7 you made reference to engaged in religious apologetics in
8 the arena of science and education?
9 A Yes. Certainly.
10 Q Was that the reference you made earlier to the
11 scientific works of Mr. Price and Mr. Rimer?
12 A Right. They would be the best examples of doing
14 Q Are you familiar with what might be described as
15 creation science?
16 A Yes, I am.
17 Q Are you familiar with the organizations that
18 presently promote creation science?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of
21 professional certainty as to whether the groups involved
22 in the creation science movement are part of the
23 Fundamentalist movement?
24 A Yes, they certainly are.
25 Q Is that your opinion?
1 A That's my opinion, yes.
2 Q Upon what do you base that opinion, sir?
3 A Well, I base that opinion on my research into the
4 history of Fundamentalism, looking at documents published
5 by such groups and seeing the convergence of their views
6 with Fundamentalist views.
7 Q And have you examined these creation science groups
8 in the ordinary course of your scholarship?
9 A Yes.
10 Q In other words, without particular reference to my
11 engagement of you as an expert?
12 A To some degree, yes.
13 Q And also to some degree with reference to my asking
14 you to look at creation science?
15 A Yes. Certainly.
16 Q Does the creation science movement today contain any
17 elements found in the Fundamentalist movement as you have
18 described it historically?
19 A The creation science movement today does contain
20 elements that are strikingly and typically
21 Fundamentalist. One is the creation science movement,
22 from its inception, has emphasized the divine creation and
23 literalistic interpretation of the Bible, which tends to
24 be a leading trait of Fundamentalism, and necessarily
25 opposed to all forms of evolutionalism.
1 A (Continuing) So, for instance, if you look at a
2 book like Henry Morris' The Troubled Waters of Evolution--
3 Q Professor Marsden, would having that book facilitate
4 your testimony in this connection?
5 A Yes, it would.
6 Q You were about to make reference to one of those,
7 Professor. Could you, before you begin to read, identify
8 the book by author, title, and page?
9 A This is a book by Henry M. Morris, The Troubled
10 Waters of Evolution, published by C.L.P. Publishers, San
11 Diego, California. Copyright 1974.
12 I am going to refer to page 10.
13 MR. SIANO: Your Honor, at this point I would state
14 for the record that Professor Marsden has brought this
15 book with him, and I would like to see if we have got a
16 document, Exhibit Number Four, at this time. If I may
17 have a moment to do that.
18 Q You brought those books with you, didn't you?
19 A Well, yes, I did. Actually I brought my copies.
20 These are copies of the same books.
21 MR. SIANO: Your Honor, we are going to offer a
22 record designation to the pages to which Professor Marsden
23 makes reference. We will insert in the blank exhibit
24 numbers that are in the record at this point as Exhibit
25 Number Thirty, The Troubled Waters of Evolution, by Henry
1 MR. SIANO: (Continuing) Morris, and provide copies
2 to counsel for the defendants at this point.
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, in I might interject, it
4 would assist us greatly if we could have a copy of that
5 book now to look at, so we can prepare our cross
6 examination. Without that, I think we would be prejudiced.
7 THE COURT: Okay. Do you have a copy?
8 MR. SIANO: There are only two.
9 THE COURT: Fine. You can look at my copy.
10 MR. SIANO: (Continuing)
11 Q You were about to make reference to those, Professor?
12 A Yes. One characteristic of Fundamentalism has been
13 to emphasize, as you described it, the dualistic
14 position. That is, that there are only two positions,
15 they say, that are positions. There is the position of
16 creationism now defined as twenty-four hour a day
17 creationism, virtually, at least, and everything else,
18 which is evolution.
19 So in this book by Morris, he says this on page 10,
20 "Sometimes, evolution is described as God's method of
21 creation, in an attempt to make it more palatable to
22 die-hard creationists, but this device has never been
25 satisfactory, either to evolutionists or creationists."
1 A (Continuing) Now, Morris, the origin of that sort
2 of sentiment, you trace in Morris' own thoughts of this--
3 Q Are these books all in?
4 You may make reference to that in Exhibit Number
5 Thirty-One at this point.
6 A There is a second book called, by Henry M. Morris
7 again, called, Studies in the Bible and Science, which is
8 a collection of essays by Morris published by Presbyterian
9 and Reform Publishing Company, Philadelphia, 1966,
11 In 1963, Morris delivered an address at the American
12 Scientific Affiliation around the same time, I think, as
13 the emergence of the Creation Research Society, and the
14 theme of the address was "No Compromise". That's a
15 characteristic Fundamentalist emphasis, you're either with
16 us or you're with Satan. And Morris said that in just so
17 many words. On page 102--
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I object to the last
19 comment, certainly, concerning a statement. Perhaps I
20 misunderstood, but if he is making reference to a speech
21 that was given that he does not have, that would violate
22 the best evidence rule and I would move to strike that.
23 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm sorry. This is a
24 quotation from that speech. This is a collection of
1 MR. WILLIAMS: I'll withdraw the objection, Your
3 A He says this-- Well, he's referring to another
4 point there. He says, "And this should be true more than
5 anywhere else in connection with the philosophy of
6 evolution, since as been pointed out above" -- And he has
7 just argued this at some length -- "as has been pointed
8 out above, this philosophy", that is evolution, "is really
9 the foundation--" The philosophy of evolution is really
10 the foundation, "of the very rebellion of Satan himself
11 and of every evil system which he has devised since that
12 time to oppose the sovereignty and grace of God in this
14 So there you have it. On the one side is evolution and
15 every evil philosophy on the side of Satan, or you can
16 have creationism. No middle ground.
17 Q Do creation scientists today, as you understand
18 them, share any common characteristics of early
19 Fundamentalists in insisting that the Bible is the source
20 of their creation science models?
21 A That's correct. Often in creation science
22 literature it is stressed that the Bible is the only
23 source for finding out about origins.
24 For instance, here is another book by Duane T. Gish,
25 called Evolution: The Fossils Say No. This book is
1 A (Continuing) published by Creation Life Publishers,
2 San Diego, Californian copyrighted, the first edition,
4 In this book, Mr. Gish, on page 42, makes a
5 characteristic statement in his definition of creation.
6 He says, "By creation we mean the bringing into being of
7 the basic kinds of plants and animals by the process of
8 sudden or fiat creation," -- and this is the key --
9 "described in the first two chapters of Genesis."
10 That's just the very definition of creation in many
11 creation science publications. Henry Morris says this
12 even more strongly in a book, The Studies in the Bible of
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I would have to interject
15 at this point an objection. This has absolutely, without
16 question, no relevance to Act 590. We're talking now
17 about a statement where someone said that creation is as
18 described in Genesis. This Act specifically prohibits any
19 mention to Genesis. I fail to see what relevance it has.
20 Obviously, it cannot go to the legislative intent. These
21 people did not pass Act 590; the Arkansas Legislature did.
22 We have an Act which is specific, and we should look at
23 the Act. This is irrelevant.
24 MR. SIANO: Your Honor, in addition to the
1 MR. SIANO: (Continuing) memorandum that the
2 Plaintiffs submitted earlier this morning on the question
3 of relevance, I will speak briefly to that point, if your
4 Honor feels it appropriate at this time.
5 THE COURT: I think maybe you should. And
6 incidentally, the memorandum was never given to me. I've
7 never read it.
8 MR. SIANO: Excuse me, your Honor. I think it was
9 conveyed to a member of the Court's staff earlier this
11 THE COURT: Well, the first I heard of it was when
12 we were getting ready to walk in the courtroom this
13 morning. I haven't read it.
14 MR. SIANO: In that case, I'll be a little more
15 detailed. I'm sorry about the time it will take.
16 Under Rule 401 of the Federal Rules of Evidence, your
17 Honor, the test of relevance is a logical test. It's a
18 test as to whether the proper evidence has a tendency in
19 logic to make the point being proposed more likely to have
20 occurred; or the point being opposed less likely to have
22 Now, in this case it is the point to be made by the
23 Plaintiffs that the entire body of writings of the
24 creation science movement display their purpose as being
25 religious. And that this purpose, this religious purpose,
1 MR. SIANO: (continuing) is intrinsic in the
2 writings of the creation science movement.
3 And that we believe that this is relevant, your Honor,
4 logically likely to make the fact finder conclude that the
5 term, creation science, is, in fact, a religious
6 apologetic, in that all the writings advance a religious
8 Furthermore, the defendants' witnesses have stated in
9 their depositions that the gentlemen, particularly
10 referred to in this case as to this witness, Mr. Morris
11 and Mr. Gish, are authorities on the topic of creation
12 science. And that, therefore, we believe what is being
13 put before the Court are these relevant sections of these
14 books which bear upon the question of religious purpose,
15 or argue quite strenuously in opposition to the
16 defendants' position that creation science is, in fact,
17 science, and not a religious apologetic.
18 And it is offered for that purpose, and that is why
19 we're offering these writings, to show the religious
20 purpose and intent of the creation science movement.
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, the plaintiffs cannot
22 overcome the section of the Act which specifically
23 prohibits any religious instruction. Merely because
24 someone calls it creation science somewhere out in the
25 world does not mean it complies with Act 590, just as
1 MR. WILLIAMS: (Continuing) evolution may have been
2 abused in the past for some doctrine which it does not
3 fairly characterize. So it is irrelevant to the question
4 at hand.
5 THE COURT: Well, I'll have to wait and see what the
6 witnesses say about how much they relied on Mr. Gish and
7 Mr. Morris and other writers in that connection. If the
8 people the creation scientists are relying upon are people
9 who write in terms of religious writings, I think that
10 would be relevant.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I think our point is that
12 to the extent that there are writings out there which have
13 religious references and talk about creation science, they
14 cannot be used under Act 590. It is specifically
16 THE COURT: I appreciate that, yes, sir. But I
17 don't think the writers can call it religion for one
18 purpose and science for another, if that's what they have
19 done in these writings. And they underpin it with
20 religious writings, then I don't think they can just take
21 the hat off and say, "Well, we're talking about science
22 now." I think that's the point the Plaintiffs are trying
23 to make.
24 MR. WILLIAMS: That may be true, But I just wanted
25 to make the point, your Honor, that these individuals are--
1 THE COURT: I appreciate the point that you're
2 making. They can't teach out of the book in school. I
3 understand that, and they wouldn't be used in school, or
4 even those viewpoints wouldn't be used in school
6 I think the evidence is admissible and relevant.
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Your Honor.
8 MR. SIANO: (Continuing)
9 Q Professor Marsden, you have in front of you a copy
10 of Exhibit Twenty-Nine in evidence, Act. 590 of 1981. You
11 have, in fact, seen that Act before, have you not?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q Do you have an opinion, sir, as to whether the
14 definition of creation science as set forth in Section
15 4(a) of Act 590 is a statement of Fundamentalist belief?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q As a professional opinion to a reasonable degree of
18 certainty, could you state what that opinion is?
19 A Yes. The striking thing to me about reading this
20 Act is that when reading it, as a historian one is quite
21 aware of the variety of opinions that there have been on
22 relating science to the Bible. There are numbers of
23 things that might plausibly be called creation science in
24 the sense of using science to confirm or to agree with the
25 Bible in some way or another.
1 A (Continuing) This Act singles out and gives
2 preferential treatment to just one such view, one that is
3 very easily identifiable as a characteristically
4 Fundamentalist view.
5 Q Now, is there an interpretation of Genesis from a
6 Fundamentalist perspective that coincides with subdivision
7 1 of Section 4(a), "Sudden creation of the universe,
8 energy, and life from nothing"?
9 A Yes. The anti-evolutionism characteristics of
10 Fundamentalist would emphasize the word "sudden".
11 Q And is there an interpretation, a Fundamentalist
12 interpretation of Genesis that coincides with point 2 of
13 Section 4(a), "Insufficiency of mutation and national
14 selection in bringing about the development of all living
15 kinds from a single organism"?
16 A Yes. The word "kinds" is a word that appears in
17 Genesis One several times and which is characteristic of
18 Fundamentalist talk about the subject.
19 Q Now, is there a Fundamentalist view of Genesis that
20 coincides with point 3 of Section 4(a), "Changes only
21 within fixed limits of originally created kinds of plants
22 and animals"?
23 A Yes. Genesis One repeatedly says that they brought
24 forth after their kind. And that's interpreted by
25 Fundamentalists to mean that you can't change from one
1 A (Continuing) kind or species to another.
2 Q Is there an interpretation of Fundamentalist view of
3 Genesis that coincides with point 4 of Section 4(a),
4 "Separate ancestry for man and apes"?
5 A Yes. That's an elaboration of the previous point,
6 that different kinds don't change into each other.
7 Q Is there a Fundamentalist interpretation of Genesis
8 that coincides with point 5 of Section 4 a, "Explanation
9 of the earth's geology by catastrophism, including the
10 occurrence of a worldwide flood"?
11 A Yes. Point 5 is particularly characteristic of a
12 branch of Fundamentalism that is the one that is
13 associated with what is now widely called creation science
14 that emphasizes flood geology, as it's called, and
15 catastrophism as a way of explaining the fossil evidence.
16 Q That flood that Fundamentalists talk about, is that
17 the Noachian flood?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Is there an interpretation in the Fundamentalist
20 view of Genesis that coincides with point 6 of Section
21 4(a), "A relatively recent inception of the earth and
22 living kinds"?
23 A Yes. That again is characteristic of a particular
24 subbranch of Fundamentalism which emphasizes the
25 twenty-four hour day creationism, and therefore quite a
1 A (Continuing) young earth.
2 Q Professor Marsden, are there other sections of Act
3 590 of 1981 that in your professional opinion reflect
4 aspects of Fundamentalism in America as you know it?
5 A Yes, there are.
6 Q I'll ask you to focus first on Section 4(b) and the
7 subdivisions therein, please.
8 A Yes. Without going through--
9 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I missed the question.
10 Q Can I ask you, Professor, to focus now on Section
12 A Yes.
13 In Section 4(b), without going through the details of
14 it, the general characterization of evolution science
15 there is one that makes evolution science, it seems to me,
16 virtually necessarily a wholly naturalistic process. And
17 it's one that is written as the inverse of the special
18 flood geology kind of science of 4(a).
19 Q In other words, that's establishing a dualist
20 definition in this action?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q I'll direct your attention to Section 6. Are there
23 any particular points in Section 6 that reflect typical
24 literalist Fundamentalism as you understand it?
25 A Right. There's a striking one here in Section 6,
1 A (Continuing) the third line, where -- this is the
2 legislative purpose, the declaration of purpose. One of
3 the purposes is to insure neutrality toward students'
4 diverse religious conviction.
5 Now, it seems to me that the only way that you can
6 suppose that presenting just two positions, or giving a
7 privileged position to just two positions, amounted to
8 neutrality, was if you thought there were only two
9 positions. If you thought there were fifteen positions,
10 you wouldn't say this is ensuring neutrality by giving a
11 privileged position to just one.
12 So this reflects the kind of Fundamentalist thinking
13 that I quoted from the books, particular the book by Henry
15 MR. SIANO: No further questions, your Honor.
18 BY MR. CAMPBELL:
19 Q Professor Marsden, I'd like to ask you a few
20 questions about the books which are introduced. I'm
21 sorry, but I did not get all the exhibit numbers.
22 The Morris book, The Troubled Waters of Evolution,
23 that's Exhibit Thirty-One, is that correct?
24 A I believe that's correct, or Thirty.
25 Q Thirty. The Morris book on The Bible and Science.
1 A Thirty-one.
2 Q And finally, the Gish book, Evolution: The Fossils
3 Say No.
4 A Seventy-eight, I believe.
5 MR. SIANO: Your Honor, for the record I'll state
6 that there are two editions to that book, and we believe
7 it's Seventy-eight. The other is Seventy-seven. I
8 believe we questioned him out of Seventy-eight.
9 Q Professor Marsden, where did you get these books?
10 A Where did I get the books?
11 Q Yes, sir.
12 A Well the fact of the matter is that I brought these
13 three books with me on the airplane. My attorney said--
14 One of them is a library book, and they said, "We have the
15 same book." Let's use our copy.
16 Q Where did you get these books that you brought with
18 A The ones I brought with me, a couple were in my
19 personal library, and the other one was in Calvin College
21 MR. CAMPBELL: Your Honor, may I approach the
23 THE COURT: You may.
24 MR. CAMPBELL: (Continuing)
25 Q According to plaintiff's Exhibit Number Thirty,
1 Q (Continuing) which is the Morris book, The Troubled
2 Waters of Evolution, would you please read to me the
3 inside cover of that book, please?
4 A The inside cover has pasted in this statement, "This
5 book is not designed or appropriate for public school use
6 and should not be used in public schools in any way." It
7 continues in smaller print, "Books for public schools
8 discuss scientific evidence as supports creation science
9 or evolution science. This book instead discusses
10 religious concepts or materials that support Creationist
11 religion or evolutionist religion, and such religious
12 material should not be used in public schools."
13 Q I'd like you to examine Plaintiff's Exhibit
14 Thirty-one, which is the Morris book, The Bible and
15 Science, and tell the Court whether or not that same
16 disclaimer appears in that book?
17 A Yes. The same disclaimer is in this book. I don't
18 know whether it's relevant. I don't think these are in my
20 Q I appreciate that. Exhibit Number Seventy-eight,
21 which is the Gish book, is a similar disclaimer in there?
22 A Yes. Same thing.
23 Q What research have your done on Fundamentalism in
24 Arkansas in 1981?
25 A What research have I done on it?
1 Q Yes, sir.
2 A In Arkansas, particularly?
3 Q In 1981?
4 A This is the first time I've been to Arkansas, was
5 yesterday afternoon, in 1981. I have tried to keep up
6 with this case, primarily, and I followed Fundamentalism
7 in the country in a general way in 1981.
8 Q Would it be fair to say that you have not done any
9 research on Fundamentalism in Arkansas in 1981?
10 A No, I wouldn't say so, because since being asked to
11 testify, I have considered this law and Fundamentalism as
12 it relates to that law, and talked to numbers of people
13 about that. So I have done some research.
14 Q Fundamentalism is a coalition of various movements,
15 isn't it?
16 A Yes, it is.
17 Q Can you distinguish Fundamentalism as it existed up
18 to 1925 from contemporary Fundamentalism?
19 A The core of the movement is the same, its militancy
20 and opposition to modernism or secular humanism. There
21 are some differences. For instance, today Fundamentalism
22 has a much more mass media aspect. I think that has
23 changed some of the emphases that are associated with the
25 Q Is it your opinion that Act 590 is exclusively a
1 Q (Continuing) product of Fundamentalism?
2 A No, not exclusively Fundamentalist.
3 Q Do Fundamentalists believe in a six day creation?
4 A Many Fundamentalists believe in a six day creation,
6 Q Do you see the words, "Six day creation", in Act 590?
7 A The words, "Six day creation", are avoided in Act
9 Q You said they are what?
10 A They are avoided in Act 590. That's a conclusion.
11 I do not see them.
12 Q Fundamentalists have historically opposed the
13 teaching evolution in the school room, haven't they?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Act 590 permits evolution to be taught in the school
16 room, doesn't it?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q Can you separate a religious creator from scientific
20 A From scientific creation as defined in this Act?
21 Q Yes, sir.
22 A No. It seems to me that the very word, "creation",
23 entails "creator".
24 Q You have always studied a creator in a religious
1 Q (Continuing) context, haven't you?
2 A Well, creator is used in all sorts of contexts.
3 Q But you've always studied it in a religious context,
4 haven't you?
5 A Not necessarily, no.
6 Q How else have you studied creator?
7 A Well, I've studied-- Do you mean-- Creator of
8 what, in what sense?
9 Q Have you studied the concept of Creator always in a
10 religious context?
11 A No. I've studied-- For instance, creator might be
12 used in the sense of the Creation of the American
13 Republic, which is the title of a book. And the creators
14 of the American Republic would be the people like Thomas
15 Jefferson. So creator in itself has all sorts of meanings.
16 Q You have never studied a creator in a scientific
17 concept have you, or as a scientific concept?
18 A Studied a creator as a scientific concept? I have
19 studied a lot of the relationship between a creator and
20 scientific concepts.
21 Q But you are not a scientist, are you?
22 A I'm a historian, and historians have to do a lot of
23 history of science to some extent.
24 Q But you are not trained a scientist, are you?
1 A I'm not trained as a scientist, no.
2 Q All Fundamentalists don't hold to the six part
3 definition of creation science in Act 590, do they?
4 A That's correct. Not all Fundamentalists would hold
5 to that view. But of course, that's--
6 Q Thank you.
7 Fundamentalists view sanctification in different ways,
8 don't they?
9 A Yes, they do.
10 Q Fundamentalists view free will in different ways,
11 don't they?
12 A They are sub groups within the movement on all these
14 Q Fundamentalists view dispensationalism in different
15 ways, don't they?
16 A There are subgroups on that, too.
17 Q Fundamentalists view revivalism in different ways,
18 don't they?
19 A There are subgroups on that, too. Correct.
20 Q Fundamentalists view creation science in different
21 ways don't they?
22 A There are subgroups in their views that, too.
23 Q Act 590 prohibits any religious instruction or
24 references to religious materials, doesn't it?
25 A That's what it says, yes.
1 Q From a historical perspective, hasn't Fundamentalism
2 embraced or championed the scientific method of inquiry?
3 A It has talked a great deal about championing the
4 scientific method of inquiry. It is typical for
5 Fundamentalists to say the facts of science versus the
6 theory of evolution, for instance.
7 MR. CAMPBELL: I have no further questions.
8 MR. SIANO: Very briefly, Your Honor.
11 BY MR. SIANO:
12 Q These books that you brought with you, these are
13 your own copies, aren't they?
14 A None of the books in this courtroom is my copy. I
15 brought-- I have in my hotel room across the street three
16 copies of these books. And since you had these, we
17 decided to use these.
18 Q The ones that you brought with you from Grand Rapids
19 didn't have these little labels in them, did they?
20 A I wouldn't swear to that. I'm pretty sure. I'm
21 sure this one doesn't.
22 Q The Bible and Science, that one doesn't have any
23 label in it? You're certain of that, under oath?
24 A Well, I am-- I am ninety-nine percent sure. I'd
1 A (Continuing) be willing to bet.
2 Q So as far as you can remember, the books you got in
3 the ordinary course of business didn't have these labels
4 in them?
5 A I certainly didn't notice it on the particular three
6 I had.
7 MR. SIANO: I'd say for the record, Your Honor, the
8 books we got, we got in the document production from the
9 organizations themselves, and that's where we got the
11 MR. SIANO: (Continuing):
12 Q You identified Calvin College. Could you just tell
13 me what Calvin College is, since I didn't ask you about
14 that, sir?
15 A Yes. Calvin College is the college of the Christian
16 Reform Church, which is the Dutch equivalent of a
17 Presbyterian Church.
18 Q It is, in fact, evangelical?
19 A Calvin College is an evangelical in what is called
20 reformed credo-denomination. It's a conservative
21 Christian basically.
22 MR. SIANO: No further questions, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: You can step down. Thank you.
24 This would probably be a good time to break for
25 lunch. We'll reconvene at 1:30 p.m.