Filling in pages 1-36

(These are pages from the plaintiffs' part of the transcript provided by Griff Ruby. These fill in part of the missing pages. A preliminary OCR pass has been done, and proofreading will occur as time becomes available. -- Wesley R. Elsberry)

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT CWU~~ED
in ~ DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF iN~.EI~N DISTRICT ARI~A~SAS
WESTERN DIVISION

MAY 61983
REV. BILL McLEAN; CARL ~i CLERX
BISHOP KEN HICKS: By: ~zLJLUL~24~

Sandra Smith, CVR
- Official Court Reporter
United Stares District Court
Post Office Box 1540

Little Rock, Arkansas 72203
1-A

BEFORE THE HONORABLE WILLIAM R. OVERTON, UNITED STATES

DISTRICT JUDGE, LITTLE ROCK, ARKANSAS, DECEMBER 7-17, 1981, as

follows:

VOLUME I

APPEARANCES:

On Behalf of the plaintiffs:

ROBERT CEARLEY
JOAN VEHIK
Cearley, Gitchel, Mitchell & Roachell
1014 West Third Street
Little Rock, Arkansas 72203

PHILIP KAPLAN
Kaplan, Hollingsworth, Brewer & Bilheimer, P.A.
Suite 955 — Tower Building
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201

JACK NOVIK
BRUCE ENNIS
SUSAN STRUM
American Civil Liberties Union
132 West 43rd Street
New York, New York 10036

ANTHONY J. SIANO
GARY CRAWFORD
PEGGY KERR
MARK HERLIHY
DAVID KLASFELD
LAURIE FERBER
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meager & Flom
919 3rd Avenue
New York, New York 10022

On Behalf of the Defendants:

STEVE CLARK, Attorney General
DAVID WILLIAMS
RICK CAMPBELL
CALLIS CHILDS
Justice Building
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201

Page 1 — 239

Sandra Smith, CVR
Official Court Reporter
)
United States District Court
Post Office Box 1540
Little Rock, Arkansas 72203
2.

2~
1 VOLUME I INDEX
2 Witness:

3 On Behalf of the Plaintiffs:

4
5 BISHOP KENNETH HICKS
6 Direct Examination .....by Mr. Kaplan......page 22
7 Cross Examination by Mr. Williams....page 32
8 BRUCE VAWTER
Direct Examination......by Mr. Siano page 36
Cross Examination by Mr. Campbell....page 50
ii Redirect Examination....by Mr. Siano page 55
12 GEORGE MARSDEN
13 Direct Examination by Mr. Siano page 58
14 Voir Dire•Examination...by Mr. Campbell....page 60
15 DirectExamination(contd) . .page 64
16 Cross Examination. by Mr. Campbell....page 91
17 Redirect Examination....by Mr. Siano.......page 98
18 DOROTHY NELKIN
19 Direct Examination by Mr. Crawford....page 102
20 Cross Examination by Mr. Williams....page 130
21 Langdon Gilkey
22 Direct Examination......by Mr. Siano.......page 172
23 Cross Examination by Mr. Campbell....page 207
24 Redirect Examination....by Mr. Siano.......page 238

25
4
2-A

/
1 VOLUME I—EXHIBIT INDEX

2

3
4 EXHIBIT OFFERED RECEIVED
5
6 Plaintiffs’ No. 29. .49 49
7 Plaintiffs’ No. 99....... . . . . . .103....... 103
8 Plaintiffs’ No. 83 114 114
g Plaintiffs’ No. 76 . . . . . .114 . 114
10 Plaintiffs’ No. 88 115 115
11 Plaintiffs’ No. 115 127 127
12 Plaintiffs’No. 1 171 171
13 Plaintiffs’ No. 90 .172 172
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3.
1 (December 7, 1981)
2 (9:30 a.m.)
3 THE COURT: Are the parties ready to proceed?
4 MR. CEARLEY: Plaintiffs are ready, your Honor.

5 MR. WILLIAMS: Defendants are ready, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Cearley, do you want to make your

7 opening statement?
8 MR. CEARLEY: May it please the Court. Your Honor,
g Act 590 of 1981, which brings us here today, requires

10 teachers in public schools in Arkansas to give what the

~ Act terms “balanced treatment” to what the Act describes
12 as “creation—science” and “evolution—science” in all

13 lectures and library material and teaching materials in

14 public schools, and in any class or lecture that deals in

15 any way with the subject of origins of life, man, the

16 universe or the earth.
17 It is the plaintiffs’ position that this Act represents

18 an attempt by the Legislature to —— an unprecedented

19 attempt by the Legislature —— arrogate~ unto itself the

20 power and the authority to define what science is and to

21 force the teaching of basic religious beliefs in the guise

22 of science in the public classrooms of the state.
23 This Act constitutes a clear and dangerous breach in the

24 law of separation between church and state required by the

25 First Amendment to the Constitution.
4.

plaintiffs,
MR. CEARLEY: (Contin~,1~, Twenty—three

2 individuals, organizations, teachers and religious leaders

3 are asking the Court today to strike down this law as a
‘~ violation of their religious freedom.
5 The issues presented by the law are many and complex,

6 but in spite of the tenor of public debate that has

7 surrounded this Controversy, I should like to make it

8 clear that the plaintiffs in this case do not challenge

9 anyone’s religious beliefs, nor the belief by any person

10 in the divine creation or in God, or any person’s belief

ii in Fundamentalist theology, nor do the plaintiffs intend

12 to attempt to prove the theory of evolution or any other

13 theory of the origins of man, life, the earth or the
14 universe.
is Plaintiffs do intend to prove that creation—science, as

16 it is described in Act 590, is not science; that it meets

17 none of the criteria of science, and that it is, instead,
18 religious appologetics; that it is an attempt by a

19 ectarian group to attempt to prove or justify belief in

20 ivine creation as set out in a literal reading of the
21 00k of Genesis.
22 Plaintiffs intend to prove that Act 590 violates the

23 ights of academic freedom of both students and teachers,

24 nd that its language is so vague that persons of ordinary
25 r common intelligence must necessarily guess at its
5.

MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing) meaning. To a classroom 2 teacher, this means that if that teacher guesses wrong, he

~ could lose his job.

4
The First Amendment states that Congress shall make no
5 law respecting the establishment of religion. It is

6 applied to the states by the Fourteenth Amendment. And as

~ interpreted by the United States Supreme Court, state

8 action or an act such as Act 590 violates the First

9 Amendment if the action or the act has no secular purpose,

10 or if it fosters excessive government entanglement with
11 religion.
12 Failing any one of these tests violates the requirements
13 of the First Amendment.
14 The plaintiffs’ proof will go to establish that Act 590
15 violates each of these three tests.
16 We can first look to and present to the Court the Act’

17 itself and its legislative declaration of purpose. That

18 Act and the language in it shows on its face that it tends

19 to prefer a particular religious belief at the expense of
20 other religious beliefs.
21 The legislative his tory surrounding the drafting and

22 adoption of what was then Senate Bill 482 and is now Act

23 590 indicates that it is the product of a Fundamentalist

24 Christian organization that was dedicated to having acts
25 of this sort, policies and regulations, adopted by
6.

MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing) legislatures and public 2 school districts to put religion in the classroom.

3 Paul Ellwanger, testimony will establish, was then the

4
acting head of a group called Citizens for Fairness in
~ Education. Through his efforts and those of others,

6 Senate Bill 482 was drafted in what was then a model act. ‘ It was forwarded to someone here in Arkansas and presented 8 to an evangelical fellowship of ministers, which then, as

project, sought to have it transmitted to a legislator

10 or introduction in the Arkansas Legislature.

11 Senator James Hoisted, who has identified himself as a

12 Dim—again Christian Fundamentalist, when asked about the.

13 ill, stated, “I believe in a creator and I believe that

14 od created this universe. I cannot separate the bill

15 rom that belief.”

16 He went on to say the bill probably does favor the

17 iewpoint of religious Fundamentalists.

18 We would show next, through the testimony of a

19 hilosopher of science, an expert in the area of biology

20 nd genetics, an expert in geology, one in paleontology

21 nd one in physics that creation—science is not science;

22 at it meets none of the criteria of science; that it is

23 ither explanatory, that is, it does not tend to explain

24 t a natural world, which is what concerns scientists and

25 w at constitutes the study of science; that it is not
7.
MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing) testable; that it is
2 falsifiable, because it invokes the supernatural to
~ explain the phenomena; that it is not tenative; that it

4
is, rather, dogmatic and absolute and unyielding.

5 Testimony will establish that creationist scientists are

6 the only persons who use the word “creation—science”. It

~ does not exist otherwise in the world of science, and that

8 the self—described creationist scientists do not subscribe

9 to or utilize scientific methods.

10 Testimony will be elicited from Bishop Kenneth Hicks,

11 from Father Bruce Vawter, a Bible scholar, and from

12 Professor George Marsden, a Biblical historian, from

13 sociologist, Dorothy Nelkin, and from Doctor Landon

14 Gilkey, a theologian and philosopher, that

15 creation—science is, in fact, religion as it is defined;

16 that it reflects a lilteral interpretation of the Book of

17 Genesis and the account of the creation of the world and

18 man; that it is a product of sectarian belief, Biblical

19 inerrancy. That is, the only source of absolute truth is

20 the Bible, and the Bible is true as it is literally read

21 in its original autographs.

22 The proof will establish that the introduction of

23 creation—science •in the public school classrooms of this

24 state is and was the goal of a group or of several

25 Biblical literalist, Fundamentalist organizations and
8.

/
1 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing) individuals who engage
2 in the practice of religious apologetics. That is,

3 attempting to justify or support religious beliefs, in

~ this case, by recourse to pseudo—science.
5 Teachers and educators, as well as religious witnesses,
6 will testify that presenting creation—science in the

7 classroom has the clear effect of advancing a literal

8 interpretation of Genesis, which is not shared by all
9 religious people, nor shared by other non—religious
10 people, and that that literally constitutes a clear
11 advancement of religion for a sectarian group at the
12 expense of others.
13 Teachers and educators, science educators, in
14 particular, will testify that there is no way that

is creation—science, as described in the Act, can be taught

.16 in the classroom without reference to religious literature
17 r the Bible.
18 Teachers will testify that they don’t know of any other

19 ay to explain to students who inquire and who question a

20 resentation on creation—science without reference to the
21 ible or to other religious literature.
22 They will testify that the presentation of the two

23 odels of the origin of man as presented in Act 590 sets

24 p a false conflict between religion and science that can

25 nly be resolved in a classroom situation by students
II

9.
1 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing) taking sides, and that

2 this will inevitably cause division along religious lines

3 and require monitoring the classroom presentation in order

4 to assure that there are no Biblical references, there are

5 no religious references, a monitoring job which educators
6 and teachers will define as impossible.
7 Many of the State’s own expert witnesses will admit that

8 creation—science cannot be taught as science and that it

~ may not be science. Many of the State’s own witnesses

10 will state that they subscribe to the belief that the

~ Bible is literally true and that anything in science which
12 conflicts with the Bible must be wrong, and that

13 creation—science must be taught in that context.
14 With regard to the academic freedom right of students

is and teachers, testimony will establish that the State’s

16 power to determine curriculum and to define what should be

17 taught in public schools carries with it a correlative

18 responsibility on the part of the State to teach in the

ig classroom only that which has a valid educational purpose,

20 nd that this intrusion into the world of professional

21 ducators and education by the Legislature and by the

22 tate is without precedent and is damaging to legitimate
23 ducational goals.
24 It interferes with the right of teachers to teach and

25 tudents to learn, in that the teacher is deprived of his
10.
1 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing) opportunity and his

2 responsibility to select from among the body of knowledge

3 that constitutes his discipline that information which his
~ students can comprehend and utilize later in their

5 education and in their professional and personal lives.

6 Biology teachers will testify that the option not to

7 teach origins as presented in 590 is not an option at
8 all; that biology Courses as currently taught, which

9 accurately reflect the state of the art or the state of

10 the science, cannot be taught without the pervasive and
11 cohesive force of the theory of evolution, and that

12 because of that, teachers will be required to make some

13 presentation, of whatever kind, of creation—science in the
14 classroom.

15 The same teachers will state, and science educators will
16 state, and scientists will state that the concept of
ii creation—science as it’s described in Act 590 is

18 meaningless unless it is placed within the framework of

i~ the belief in the literal account in the Book of Genesis;

20 that that is the only common thread tying the six elements
21 in the definition together.

22 Finally, teachers will testify that they simply do not

23 now what the term “balanced treatment” as it is presented

24 n the Act, means to them in a classroom situation; that

25 hey, whose very jobs may be on the line, are unable to
11.

/
1 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing) determine what
2 constitutes balanced treatment in the presentation of any
3 material with regard to origins.
The Act, it will be pointed out, is internally
5 inconsistent in that it seems to require balanced
6 treatment only when evolution—science is presented or

7 creation—science is presented, and, yet, on its face it

8 also requires balanced treatment in any course in which
9 the subject of origins is a part.
10 Religious liberty is among the most precious of those

it guaranteed by our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and

12 while no person in this lawsuit ascribes any but the

13 highest motives to those who sought passage of the Act and

14 those whose job it is to support and defend it, or whose

15 personal wish it is to support and defend it, it is clear
16 that the Act violates those principles of religious
17 freedom which form the foundation of our form of

18 government, and it is the duty of this Court to support

19 and defend our Constitution from any such attack.
20 Thank you.

21 THE COURT: Mr. Williams or Mr. Clark?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Clark will present our opening

23 statement, your Honor.
24 MR. CLARK: May it please the Court. As has been

25 pointed out by counsel for the plaintiffs, this Court is
II

12.
1 MR. CLARK: (continuing) presented with a very

2 complex case dealing with education, religion and science. The ultimate question being presented to this Court is

‘~ whether Act 590 is unconstitutional on its face.

5 Obviously, the nation has focused its attention on this

6 case. Yet it is not a matter of litigation involving
~ symbols between opposing philosophies, a replay of

8 previous litigation, or a situation which this Court is

~ being asked to decide the absolute origin of life, nor at
10 issue or on trial here are the philosophies of the
11 institutions or organizations, regardless of their
12 personal religious faiths.
13 It is a case in which the banter of semantics can be
14 both confusing and critical. Evidence as it will be

15 presented, however, can be adjudged by only one standard:

16 That of the law, the constitutionality of Act 590.
17 The State will prove that Act 590 does not establish
18 religion and that, in fact, this Act promotes a

19 legiltimate secular purpose, that of broadening a teaching

20 of origins from a one—model to a two—model approach.
21 The teaching of such a two—model approach in the public
22 schools advances educational purposes of assisting
23 students in their search for the truth.
24 Act 590, quite contrary to what the plaintiffs may

25 suggest, does not hinder the quest for knowledge, restrict
13.
1 MR. CLARK: (Continuing) the freedom to learn or
2 restrain the freedom to teach. It tends to give the

3 student a broad overview of the subject of origins. Consistent with a Motion in Limine filed by the State

5 this morning, the State contends this case is not one of

6 whether creation—science or evolution—science is a

7 scientific theory. Rather, the issue is simply whether

8 balanced treatment of the scientific evidences of both

9 creation—science and evolution—science, without any

io reference to religious writings or instructions, violates

ii the Constitution of the United States.
12 The Arkansas Legislature did not find it necessary to

13 decide what constitutes scientific theory. Yet, should

14 this Court disagree with the motion filed by the State,

15 the State will prove that creation—science is, at least,
16 as scientific as evolution—science; that neither
17 creation—science nor evolution—science qualify as a

18 science under a strict definition; that these two models,
19 along with a combination of the two, are the only

20 scientific explanations of the origin of the world, life
21 and man.
22 The State will further prove that creation—science and

23 evolution—science are logical alternatives. Moreover, the

24 State will pesent evidence to the effect that Act 590

25 neither advances nor inhibits religion. In fact, we will
14.
1 MR. CLARK: (Continuing) prove that
2 creation—science is, at least, as non—religious as
3 evolution—science.

4 The State’s witnesses will testify that creation—science
5 can be taught in a completely non—religious, secular
6 manner; that the words or concepts of a creator or

7 creation—science are not inherently religious doctrines,
8 nor do they necessarily encompass the concept of the
9 supernatural.
io In addition, that evolution—science is consistent with

~ some religion in the same way that creation—science is

12 consistent with others. As evolution—science presupposes
13 no creator, to this same extent creation—science may
14 •presuppose such a creator. That presupposition of a

15 creator and creation—science need not be given substantial

16 evidence, just as the presupposition of no creator need be

17 given any substantial evidence in the evolution science.

18 The State will provide testimony to the fact that the

i~ creation—science model requires a religious concept of a

20 creation. It is simply a teaching which is consistent

21 with some religions and not a teaching in fact of religion.

22 To the extent that some creation—science materials
23 presently published utilize religious doctrines or

24 writings, Act 590 specifically prohibits their use. And

25 that in the use of the words “concept of a creator”,
15.

MR CLARK: (Continuing) neither do we advance nor ~ do we prohibit religion because both scientific and

~ non—scientific writings used in our public education

‘~ system use the words “creator” and “creation”. Nor would

5 we in any way under this Act promote to the advantage of

6 any religion any incidental effect of the teaching of
7 scientific evidences of origin.
8 As plaintiffs’ counsel may have suggested, we would

9 contend to this Court and prove through evidence that Act

10 590 does not create an excessive entanglement between the
it tate and religion because this Act does specifically

12 rohibit any religious instruction and only the scientific

13 vidences and inferences therefrom from the two models can

14 e taught. And that there would be no entanglement of

15 eligion because creation-science, as I have stated, is,
16 t least, as scientific as evolution—science.
17 Moreover, the mere coincidence of a governmental program

18 th some religious beliefs does not entangle the State
19 ith religion.
20 Although the State recognizes the plaintiffs’ contention

21 hat the legislative p.rocess by which Act 590 was adopted

22 as inadequate, the State will prove that that process

23 dequately supports a legitimate secular purpose, and the
24 anner and mode of passage of this legislation is
25 rrelevant to its constitutionality.
16.
MR. CLARK: (Continuing) Further, that any

2 post—passage statement or testimony of any one legislator

3
is far less persuasive than the actual intent embodied in the Act itself.

Plaintiffs have contended that Act 590 abridges academic
6 freedom. The State will present evidence to the contrary;

‘ that, in fact, Act 590 furthers and advances academic 8 freedom.

The proof will show that without this Act, many teachers

10 ill not teach the scientific evidence which supports the

~1 heory of creation—science. Some teachers will not teach

12 reation—science without protection of the Act for fear of

13 eing punished or, in fact, fired. Indeed, at least one

14 eacher in another state has been fired for teaching a
15 reation—science model.
16 Other teachers do not presently teach creation—science

17 ecause of the litigation metality which has developed

18 round the teaching or origins. Theories of origin are

19 ontroversial, and no matter what one theory one scientist
20 ersonally believes is more correct, there are other

21 cientists who believe, another theory may better fit the
22 ata.

23 In such a situation, academic freedom of the teachers to

24 ach and students to learn is best served by teaching
25 th theories.
17.

1 MR. CLARK: (Continuing) Academic freedom is not a
2 constitutionally protected right which limits State’s

3 action, but is, rather, an interest which must be weighed
4 against legitimate State education interests.

Act 590 promotes the interests of both student and

6 teacher to inquire, to study and to evaluate, to gain new
7 maturity and new understanding.
8 Finally, your Honor, the State will demonstrate that 1~ct

g 590 is not unconstitutionally vague. The standard for 10 vagueness is whether the statute is set out in terms that ~ an ordinary person exercising ordinary common sense can

12 sufficiently understand and comply with the statute. Act 590 will be implemented by professionals, teachers
14 capable of assimilating difficult material and then

15 explaining it to their students in a simplified form.
16 Professional educators will have no difficulty in giving

17 balanced treatment within the meaning of that Act. It

18 will allow teachers to use their training and professional

19 judgment to formulate their own treatment of both the

20 creation—science and the evolution—science models without

21 chaining them to any rigid standards or guidelines with
22 which they might not feel comfortable.
23 Act 590 is not unconstitutionally vague. The State will

24 demonstrate that the Act specifically sets forth what

25 creation—science includes and what evolution—science
18.
MR. CLARK: (Continuing) includes, and it

2 specifically prohibits the use of religion; that there are

3 no penalties or sanctions provided for the failure to give

‘~ balanced treatment, and that the term “balanced treatment”
5 leaves to the professionals, the discretion of the

6 teacher, as to how to balance that treatment, equal time

7 and equal dignity, proportional time based on evidence

8 available, and sufficient time for students to understand

9 both concepts.

In summary, your Honor, the State will prove that this

ii case is not a trial of religion; it is a trial about

12 science. We have suggested that it is not proper for this

13 Court to •be called upon to define in absolutes what is

14 science, for the experts here will disagree and differ on

~ that question, but that the burden that is presented to

16 the plaintiff is one that is substantial. That is to

17 prove that Act 590, as challenged on its face, is

18 unconstitutional and not a misapplication

19 We submit and contend that the State can prove that

20 there is evidence, and if there is any evidence that

21 supports the creation—science model, explanation of
22 origins, then Act 590 must be adjudged to be

23 onstitutional.
24 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Clark.

25
19.

THE COURT: (Continuing) Mr. Cearley, apparently 2
there is some problem about some subpoenaes for
3
witnesses. Judge Byrd came with some witnesses who were
4

subpoenaed for depositions, and they don’t understand
5
exactly what to do about those subpoenaes. Mr. Hunt, Mrs.
6
Miller and Mr. Thomas.
7
JUDGE CONLEY BYRD: And Mr. Blount.
8
THE COURT: Do you intend to use those witnesses?
9
MR. CEARLEY: It was our intention to depose those
10
witnesses, and subpoenaes were issued last week and served
11
on them.
12
They contacted cousel, Kathy Woods, who called my
13
office. By agreement, their time of appearance was
14
extended. Miss Woods then left town. Since court started
15
this morning, subpoenaes to appear at court were issued.
16
We will either offer their testimony through deposition
17
or here in the courtroom, but we would prefer the
18
opportunity to depose them before taking the Court’s
19
time. It is a very narrow issue they will be called upon
20
to testify to.
21
THE COURT: They were subpoenaed, apparently, for 22
this courtroom this morning for a deposition. You are
23
going to have a little trouble taking it in here.
24
MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, I thought I had to 25
require their appearance before the Court this morning in
20.

/
1 MR. CEARLEY: (Continuing) order to get a
2 continuing obligation to appear when called.
3 THE COURT: What do you propose to do about it?
4 MR. CEARLEY: I simply would like to arrange their
s depositions sometime after normal court hours, either
6 today, tomorrow, or the next day.
7 JUDGE BYRD: Your Honor, they will be ready at
8 11:00 a.m., 1:00 p.m., 1:00 p.m. tomorrow.
g MR. CEARLEY: Eleven o’clock will be fine, your
10 Honor.
11 THE COURT: Where do you want to take them?

12 MR. CEARLEY: We can take them in my office.
13 THE COURT: The only difficulty I see about taking

14 them while Court is in session is that I am sure the

15 defendants’ attorneys would like to be there. It occurs

16 to me it would be better to take them after court hours
17 sometime.
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, that would be much

19 better for us. Indeed, with the exception of a few expert

20 witnesses which we are still going to schedule discovery,

21 I thought discovery was closed at the beginning of trial.

22 But if the Court wants to allow them to go ahead and

23 continue discovery during trial, and so orders that, we

24 will certainly, to the extent we can be there—— We can’t
25 do it very reasonably during court hours.
II

21.

THE COURT: What sort of subject are they going to 2 testify about?
3 MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, each of these persons, it

4 is my understanding, was involved with transmitting the

s model act from Mr. Ellwanger to Mr. Hoisted through an

6 evangelical group of ministers here in Little Rock. That

7 is the purpose of inquiring of them. That would be the
8 only purpose in their testimony.
9 They were subpoenaed for deposition prior to trial and

10 because of circumstances beyond my control, no depositions

ii were taken.
12 JUDGE BYRD: And the witnesses’ control. They got

13 them about an hour before to bring records.
14 What we think it is, your Honor, is abuse of process.
is These witnesses know nothing, obviously, except they

16 contacted their legislator. I think we can stipulate to
17 the facts.
18 THE COURT: I think it would be best if you all

19 meet during the lunch hour and see if you can make some

20 arrangements to take their depositions when court is not
21 in session.
22 JUDGE BYRD: Can I turn my witnesses loose?
23 THE COURT: Well, you can just make some

24 arrangements to have them available. Don’t let them get
25 outside the subpoena.
22.

/
1 MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, I might add, we have
2 proposed to ofer Senator Hoisted’s deposition to the Court
~ rather than calling him as a witness. He is under
~ subpoena and present also. This testimony is only

5 necesary because we want to put Senator Hoisted on rather
6 than ofer his deposition. It is for this limited
~ purpose. We will be happy to arrange the time to
8 accommodate the Attorney General.
9 THE COURT: Okay, sir. You can work that out during
10 the noon hour.
11 The Marshal’s service has asked me to make this

12 announcement. They want to keep traffic in and out of the

13 courtroom while court is in session to a minimum for

14 obvious reasons. So, if you leave during the course of’

is trial while Court is in session, you cannot get back in

16 until it reconvenes. So, keep that in mind.
17 Mr. Cearley, are you ready to call your first witness?
18 Thereupon,

19 KENNETH W. HICKS,

20 called in behalf of the plaintiffs herein, after having
21 been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and
22 testifed as follows:

23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. KAPLAN:
25 ~ Tell us your name, please.
23.
A Kenneth W. Hicks.

2 ~ What is your current position?

3 A My current position is Bishop of’ United Methodist

‘~ Church for the area of the state of Arkansas.
5 Q How long have you held that position?
6 A Since September 1, 1976.
7 Q How many churches are in the Methodist denomination
8 in Arkansas, at least, within your area?

9 A Approximately eight hundred United Methodist

10 churches in the state of Arkansas.

11 Q And the number of’ members in the Methodist churches
12 in Arkansas?
13 A Approximately one hundred seventy—eight thousand.
14 Q Can you tell me, quite briefly, what your duties and

15 responsibilities are as Bishop of the Methodist Church in

16 the Arkansas area?

17 A The responsibilities of the Bishop is to be a

18 general superintendent of the church with regard to te

19 area to which one is assigned —— in my case, Arkansas.
20 It has to do with general oversight of those

21 congregations, what they are doing. It has to do with the

22 missional thrust of programs that we engage in, in a

23 connectional way as United Methodist Churches in the state.

24 It has to do with the primary function of making

25 appointments of ministers to those churches and to those
24.
1 A (Continuing) charges. That is a very essential
2 responsibility of mine.

3 In addition to responsibilities of that nature, there

4 are responsibilities that have to do with denominational

s responsibilities as the superintendent of the church at

6 large.

So, I have responsibilities within the state of’ Arkansas

8 and beyond, as well, in behalf’ of’ my denomination.

9 Q If you can, briefly tell me a little bit about your

io educational background beginning in college and going

11 through the highest degree you attained.
12 A I was raised in southeast Kansas, graduated from

13 Iowa High School in southeast Kansas. I attended and

14 graduated from a small denominational school at York,

~ Nebraska, which at that time was a college of’ the United

16 Brethren denomination. I graduated from that school with
17 an A.B. degree.

18 Following that experience, I entered graduate theology

19 ~school at the ha School of Theology at Denver, Colorado,

20 on the Denver University campus, which is one of the

21 seminaries of our denomination.

22 Q Bishop, when did you first hear of’ the legislation

23 which ultimately became Act 590 and which is cha11~nged

24 here?

25 A That is difficult for me to pinpoint, but it was
25.

A (Continuing): within a matter of a few weeks prior 2 to its passing, perhaps two, three weeks prior to its

3 coming to a decision.
4 Q Since it has been passed, have you had an

s opportunity to look at the bill and to review it, read it,

6 on several occasions? A Yes, I have.

8 Q Before we discuss the bill itself, can you tell me

9 if the United Methodist Church has a position with regard io to separation of church and state?

A The United Methodist Church by its tradition and

12 heritage has always had a position that the principle of

13 separation between church and state was very important and

14 very crucial, both in the upholding and support of

15 appropriate religious freedom, as well as freedom of

16 citizenry.

17 Q Bishop, can you tell us how you formulated or how it

18 was that you formulated your initial opposition to this

i9 bill? What about this bill troubled you to the extent

20 that you became a plaintiff in the case?
21 A Yes, I will be glad to. My first perusal and

22 consideration of what was going on was the immediate

23 conviction that this seems to be or appears to be an

24 intrusion upon the First Amendment and a mix of church and

25 state to an unallowable extent.
I!

26.
1 A (Continuing): My own religious background and

2 religious heritage is such that that would be very crucial

3 to me, and it would be crucial to the life of my
4 denomination.

s So, essentially, the outset kind of awareness did have 6 to do with this being an unconstitutional type thing that i transgresses the intent and meaning of the First Amendment.
8 Q What is it—— Now, let’s hone in specifically on the
g bill and what it is in the bill that immediately brought
10 this conclusion, at least, to your attention?
A All right. In the first place, the definition of’

12 creation—science as set forth by this bill, it became

13 apparent to me that two or three things were evident.

14 One is that, first of’ all, this represents six points

i~ that really define the limits of scientific inquiry; that

16 whatever scientific inquiry would be engaged in would have

17 to fall within the already preconceived outcomes as

18 prescribed in the definition of creation—science.

19 The second observation that I made was that awareness

20 that, as nearly as I could tell, without exception these

21 six definitions of creation—science are reflections of a

22 literalistic view of the creation accounts in the Book of

23 Genesis.

24 Therefore, that began to give me a clue as to what might

25 be the intent of this Act. I have to admit that I coupled
27.
A (Continuing): that along with a general perusal or

2 consideration of the kinds of persons, the orientation of

3 persons, who, not only in Arkansas but in other places as

4 well, seemed to be very interested in getting this into

s place, which indicated to me that the creation—science

6 dimension of this was coming, indeed, from minds and

i perspectives that adhered to a literalistic view of the

8 creation account in the Book of Genesis.

g Another thing that troubled me and still does, with 10 great emotional itensity I might add, has to do with the

11 reference in two places to such terms as, and I quote from

12 Section 6 and also from Section 7, such phrases as

13 “preventing establishment of Theologically Liberal,

14 Humanist, Nontheist, or Atheist religions.”

This is in the Legislative Declaration of Purpose. Not

16 only is that mentioned once, it is mentioned a second time

17 where those kinds of phrases, those kinds of words, are

18 used, in terms of “Theistic religion, Theological

ig Liberalism, Humanism, Nontheistic religions, and Atheism.”

20 This immediately does several things to one who has some

21 stake in, not only free religious expression, but in

22 freedom of expression in general.

23 For one, I noted that these are terms that are used here

24 as labels. They are not terms of inquiry, but they ae

25 simply undefined labels. They have no basis of definition
28.

A (Continuing) and yet in both of the references 2 where these kinds of words are used, there seems to be

3 inherent an element of alarm on the part of the Act that

4 these feelings and these positions shall be constrained in

5 some way.

6 Another thing, then, that emerged out of that

7 consideration for me was the self—attained awareness that

8 obviously the intent of the Act is not the free inquiry of

9 science, but rather, the intent of the Act seems to have

10 to do with terminology, with words, with concepts that are

i~ over in another discipline.
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I will have to object to

13 his testimony at this point if he is going to delve into

14 the area of legislative itent. I don’t think this witness

15 who is not a lawyer or a legislator is competent to

16 testify what legislative intent is.

17 To the extent the plaintiffs want to say why they feel

18 outraged by this and brought this action, I think that is

19 appropriate. But when they start making a conclusion as

20 to the intent of the legislature, I think it is beyond the

21 purview and the competence of this witness.
22 THE COURT: I think he is only talking about what

23 the language means to him. I will overrule the objection.

24 THE WITNESS: May I proceed?

25 MR. KAPLAN: Yes.
29.

1 A These words that are used in a negative in this

2 bill, “Theologically Liberal”, “Humanist”, “nontheist”,

3 they are used in a negative way as if they are words that

4 carry harmful results, harmful outcomes, whereas, on the
S other hand, these are words that have been used

6 historically in another context to advance, through

7 respectable means of discussion, the advancement of ideas,

8 the proposing of ideas, philosophical and theological.

9 Then, this totally presents itself to me——I am speaking,

10 I admit, quite subjectively at this point——to say that ii here is an effort that mentions two disciplines. There is

12 obviously a mix of theology and philosophy on the one

13 hand; there is a presentation of scientific concern on the

14 other hand. It is obvious that a discipline of theology

~ and philosophy is to be used to circumscribe the limit and

16 the nature of scientific inquiry on the other hand.

17 Now, for that to be done, for those words, those labels

18 that I have said, to be used in an authoritative way

19 further substantiated my feeling that this is a

20 transgresion of the First Amendment.

21 Q Bishop, you, as a bishop of the Methodist Church,

22 are not yourself opposed to the Genesis account or to

23 Bible teachings, are you?
24 A No, sir. They mean a great deal in my life.

25 Q Is there anything in this bill that is inconsistent
30.
Q (Continuing) with your views of religion and your
2 views of theologic discussion?
3 A Yes, sir. From my view of theological discussion, I

4 do hold very dearly and very intently to the opening words
S of the Book of Genesis: “In the beginning, God

6 created...” From that point on, I believe it belittles

7 both God and the process of theological and educational

8 inquiry to try to circumscribe what, how and what God had

9 in mind in doing that, the way in which he did it.

10 I believe it is very clear that the creation documents ~ in the Book of Genesis are put there for a purpose that

12 has to do with the why of creation, and that to the extent

13 that those documents engage in some reiteration of how it

14 took place, it is obviously in the view of, I believe,

15 mainline Biblical scholars of our time, that those are

16 pegs upon which the greater ideas, the greater principles

17 or the greater desires of’ the Book of Genesis had in mind,

18 namely, to indicate to us what the responsibility of the

19 human being is and what the arena is within which the
20 human being should be expected to work, and the fact that

21 in the creative process there is an outgrowth, that there

22 is an intention, that there is an order, but for us to

23 circumscribe that, for us to define that in our pursuit of

24 what that order might be, I believe is to do both religion
25 and science an injustice.
K
31.
1 Q Will you please tell us, in your view, why it is,

2 based on your understanding, your interpretation of the

3 Bible, as well as the fundamentalist approach, why the

4 creation—science as it is presented in Act 590 cannot be

5 taught without intruding religion into the public school
6 arena?
7 A This is one of the elements of ambiguity for me that
8 I have really not been able to penetrate to my

9 satisfaction, at least to the satisfaction of making any
10 real sense out of this Act.

ii It seems to me that in order for what is being proposed

12 here to really be put into place that there would have to

13 be a retooling of the instruction process; that, indeed,

14 the State is intruding upon the process of discovering
i~ truth, pursuing science, through the use of religious
16 orientation, and, thus, the burden would be upon the

17 State, it seems to me, to retrain teachers to be prepared
18 to use whatever tools it is that would be needed to

19 advance creation—science.
20 I believe it would be incumbent upon the State to define

21 the limits as to when it is no longer scientific and it

22 becomes religious. I believe it is incumbent upon the
23 State to give definitions to the rationale in the
24 statement of purpose that would justify the kind of

25 treatment of these terms that represent facets of life
32.

1 A (Continuing) that are to be resisted and rejected.

2 This is an area of’ State involvement that is not allowable
3 under our Constitution, nor should it be.
4 MR. KAPLAN: Thank you very much, Bishop.
5 You may inquire.

6 CROSS EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
8 Q Mr. Hicks, you stated, I believe, that you have read
9 Act 590, is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What does the phrase “prohibition against religious
12 instruction” mean to you?
13 A Prohibition against religious instruction would

14 mean, to me, that religion is not to be in the instruction

15 process.
16 Q Do you have an opinion on whether the presentation

17 of divergent views can aid in the learning process?
18 A I believe that the presentation of’ divergent views

i~ can be an aid within the learning process provided certain

20 things happen.
21 Q So, you, as a general proposition, do favor

22 including of divergent views in the learning process?
23 A In the learning process, the broad learning process,
24 yes, sir.
25 Q On your direct testimony you stated that’
¾ /
33.
U Q (Continuing) Creation—Science as defined in Act

2 590, the six points included in that definition somehow

3 define the limits of scientific inquiry, is that correct,
4 as you understand it?

5 A As I understand it. That was my conclusion, yes,
6 sir.
7 Q Is there anything that you can point to that says

8 that this and only this is Creation—Science? In other g words, that this is an all—inclusive definition?

10 A The assumption that I would make on reading the

11 definition that is in the Act is that it was intended by

12 the Act itself that this would, indeed, be basically the

13 elements that would be included in Creation—Science.
14 Q That would be an assumption, you would agree; would
15 that be correct?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q When you talk about the language in Act 590 which

18 says that this prevents the establishment of Theologically

19 Liberal, Atheist, Nontheist religions, and that language,

20 you don’t favor their establishment, do you?
21 A I can’t say to that because I don’t know what they
22 mean in the context of this Act.
23 Q Do you favor the establishment of any religion in

24 our schools by the State?

25 A No, sir.

I.
34.
Q You are not a lawyer, as to know what those terms
2 might mean to a lawyer or legislator?
3 A That’s right.
4 Q I can appreciate your comment that creation has
~ meant a great deal to you. You didn’t give the dates, but
6 when did you first enter a seminary?
7 A I entered seminary in 1948.
8 Q How many years have you been in the active ministry?
A Well, from 1948 to 1981. Somebody would have to
10 figure that up for me. From ‘48 until the present time.
11 Q About thirty—three years?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q In seminary did you sudy courses on Genesis yourself?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Did you study creation in seminary?
16 A We studied creation within the context of’ religion.
17 Q Subsequent to that time, have you engaged in any
18 independent study or reading on creation and Genesis
19 ourself?
20 A Oh, yes.
21 Q Have you given sermons on creation and on Genesis?
22 A Yes, yes, sir.
23 Q And each time that you used the term “creation” in
24 those thirty—three years, it had a religious connotation,
25
35.

/
I Q (Continuing) is that correct?
2 A That is not a problem for me.
3 Q But in trying to accept——
4 A Yes, sir, I would be inclined to accept the premise
s that “creator” does have a meaning that, for my purpose,
6 is within the context of’ my professional life, as related
7 to a supernatural being.
8 Q So, if there is scientific evidence which supports,
g scientific evidence now which supports creation, that
10 because of your own professional and academic training,
i~ that you might have some problem in dealing with that?
12 A I most certainly would, yes, sir.
13 MR. WILLIAMS: No further questions.
14 THE COURT: May this witness be excused?
15 MR. KAPLAN: Yes, your Honor.
16 (Witness excused)
17 MR. CEARLEY: Your Honor, Bruce Vawter is the next
18 witness for the plaintiffs, and Mr. Siano will handle his
19 •direct examination.
20
21
22
23
24
25
36.
I Thereupon,
2 BRUCE VAWTER,
3 called in behalf of the plaintiffs herein, after having
~ been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and
5 testified as follows:
6 DIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. SIANO:
8 Q Would you state your name for the record, sir?
9 A Bruce Vawter.
10 Q What is your address?
A 2233 North Kenmore. Chicago, Illinois.
12 Q What is your present occupation and present
13 employment?
14 A I am the chairman of the Department of Religious
15 Studies and professor in the Department of Religious
16 Studies at DePaul University in Chicago.
17 Q Are you a member of any religious organization?
18 A I belong to the religious community known as the
19 Congregation of the Mission, or more familiarly known in
20 the United States as vincention fathers. I am a Roman
21 Catholic priest.
4
22 Q Father Vawter, could you describe for me briefly the

23 academic duties that you have at DePaul University?
24 A Well, they are both administrative and academic. I

25 try to keep friendly relations between the administration of’ the university and the faculty. And I am charged with

Filling in pages, part 2

(Pages 37-62,137,481,607,683,772,792,819,822,955)

37.
1 A (Continuing) supervising the academic program and

2 maintaining academic integrity of the Discipline.
3 Q Do you teach any courses at DePaul?

A I do generally teach at least one course per 5 quarter, ordinarily some aspect of the Old Testament.
6 ~ Would you please describe what your area of

~ scholarship is?
8 A My area is Biblical studies generally, and I suppose
more specifically, I’ve been engaged with the Old

10 Testament.
11 Q Is there a particular term or terms which describes

12 the study that you engage in?
13 A Well, it goes by various terms. I suppose we’d call

14 it Text of Jesus., which is determining the sense of the

15 text, and Biblical theology, which is synthesizing the

16 various messages of the scripture.
17 In general we speak also of the historic literary study
18 I’ the Bible.
19 Q Does the term “hermeneutics” have any meaning in the
20 ontext of your scholarship?
21 A Hermeneutics is the interpretation, I suppose you

22 ould call it. It’s the showing to what extent and how

23 elevant to the present situation the historical meaning
24 f the text might be.
25 Q Could you describe the method by which you engaged
38.
1 Q (Continuing) in the use, or the exercise of the
2 ext of Jesus and hermeneutics?
3 A Well, it involved primarily the study of the text
4 tself, which is our point of departure. And when we
5 peak of historical literary method, we mean that we take
6 he Bible as a piece of literature, subject to the
i ontrols of anybody of literature, and place it within its
8 istorical media, and then attempt to do this by means of
g hether sciences or findings of sciences will relate to
10 stablishing the reconstruction of the historical
11 ituation of which the text is composed.
12 Q Do you rely on any kind of discipline, Father, other
13 han your own, in the exercise of hermeneutics?
14 A Yes. It would be particularly dealing with the body
15 f literature as mentioned in the Old Testament.
16 rcheology is extremely important. The study of ancient
17 pigraphy. Comparative literature. The linguistic helps.
18 Q What is epigraphy?
19 A In this context epigraphy means ancient writings,
20 ncient inscriptions.
21 Q Do you rely on any particular text, any analysis of
22 the Old Testament that you engage?
23 A Do you mean any particular version of the Bible?
24 Q Yes.
25 A Well, I use the original text ordinarily as my
II

39.

/
1 A (Continuing) point of—— Not that I teach that to

2 the students, but I have control over the original Hebrew
3 text.

Q When you say the “original Hebrew text”, would you
5 explain that for me, what you mean by it?

6 A In respect to Genesis, particularly, or—— 7 Q Well, just from where that source is drawing.
8 A The only complete manuscripts of the entire Old

~ Testament, Hebrew, that exist are from the Christian era.

10 Prior to that, of course, it was handed down by, the text

n was handed down either by word of mouth or handed down in
12 literary form.
13 But what remains from the ancient times is the text, as

14 I say, the complete text of the Bible, forming from the
15 early Christian times.
16 The accuracy of that transmission, however, has been
17 rather marvelously maintained, as far as can be

18 determined. The ancient rabbis who handed down the text

i9 built into the text itself by their annotations various

20 controls which made the preservation of the text much

21 simpler. And it has been—— It is, as all would agree, in
22 a rather remarkable state of preservation.
23 Q Do you make reference to any other ancient sources?
24 A Ancient translations, such as the ancient Greek
25 translation Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate,
40.
A (continuing) particularly, which were made before

2 the time that’s predating any of the existing manuscripts

3 of the Old Testament and various other ancient versions.
4 Q Father Vawter, may I ask you to speak up, because

5 I’m having a little difficulty hearing you.
6 A All right.
7 Q Do you also refer to the work of other scholars in

8 your field in connection with your studies?
9 A Oh, certainly. You stand on the shoulders of your

io predecessors and you are supported by the stout right arm
ij of your contemporaries.
12 Q And could you, for our edification, identify some of
13 the authorities of other scholars to whom you make

14 particular reference in your work?
15 A Well, that would be a morning’s task, I suppose.
16 But in respect particularly to Genesis, I rely very

17 heavily upon the great works of Hermann Gunkel, and

18 present day commentary of, particularly, I would say,
i~ Claus Westermann, both of these rather famous German

20 scholars.
21 But I make use of any number of other contemporary

22 scholars.
23 Q Now, directing your attention particularly to

24 Genesis, Father Vawter, in the first book of the Bible,

25
41.
1 Q (Continuing) how long have you devoted to the study
2 of Genesis, its origins and its interpretation?
3 A To the study of it?
Q Yes, sir.
5 A I suppose about forty years or so.
6 MR. SIANO: Your Honor, I would offer into evidence
7 for purposes of expeditiousness Exhibit Ninety—Five for
8 identification, the resume of Father Vawter, and I would
9 offer him as an expert in the interpretation of Genesis at
10 this time.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: No objection, your Honor.
12 MR. SIANO: (Continuing):
13 Q Father Vawter, did I engage you services as an
14 expert?
15 A You did.
16 Q And as to what subject matter?
17 A The subject matter would be Act 590 of the Arkansas
18 Legislature and its relevance to the literalists’
19 interpretation of the book of Genesis.
20 Q And again, Father, I’d ask you to speak up for this
21 next set Of questions.
22 Would you describe for me how you would characterize the
23 Genesis account in the Bible?
24 A The Genesis account is, various terms could be used
25 for it. I would say that it is in narrative form, the
42.
1 A (Continuing) expression of religious convictions

2 concerning the human origins and the origin of the world

3 and the consequences of that with regard to mankind’s

‘~ duties and his participation in the creative work of God

5 by being made in the human likeness.
6 Q And I take it, sir, that it would be here stated

7 that’s your opinion to a reasonable degree of professional
8 ertainty?
9 A It is.
10 Q Would you describe what evidences or what particular
ii oints support your characterization of Genesis as you’ve
12 just given it?
13 A Well, in the first place, I’d say it’s the narrative
14 ccount of religious conviction. Nobody ever witnessed
15 reation. And the only way that you could have, or the
16 fly way that anyone could have what we call a factual
17 account of anything is by means of contact with empirical
18 vidence. So I characterize it as a narrative in which
19 ertain felt religious convictions are being expressed.
20 Q Does “typical” mean a particular religious view?
21 MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I’m going to object to
22 his line of inquiry on the grounds of relevancy. The
23 eligious testimony is irrelevant on the ground that Act
24 90 specifically prohibits, in Section 2, any references
25
43.
/

/
1 ~ (Continuing) including any religious instruction or

2 any references to religious rights. So to the extent that

3 this witness is going to talk about any religious
‘~ testimony that might come under Act 590, the Act on its
5 face prohibits it.
6 THE COURT: I think we will get to the relevant part
~ in a moment.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, could I have a ruling on
9 my relevancy objection for the record, please?
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
1 MR. SIANO: (Continuing):
12 Q Does Genesis set forth a particular view of
13 creation, ideas that, what we might characterize as your
14 normal christian view?
is A Well, I would say that the christian view of
16 creation has been extracted from the Book of Genesis, yes.
17 Q In the course of your research, have you encountered
18 different interpretations of Genesis among scholars and
19 religious groups?
20 A Oh, yes. Many.
21 Q So not everyone sees Genesis the same way?
22 A By no means.
23 Q In regard to the interpretation by religious groups,
24 could you characterize how they differ?

broadest difference, I would say, would be
25 A The
44.

A (continuing) between what we would call the 2 Fundamentalist or literalist school of interpretation, and

3 what we would call the historical, critical school.

4 Q Could you, in the context of Genesis, describe or

5 explain what is meant by a “Biblical literalist”?
6 A Yes. I think a Biblical literalist would be one who

i simply accepts at face value what is asserted by the Bible 8 without feeling the necessity of adjusting that to other ~ experience or adjusting it to modern contemporary io conditions.
11 Q Would a fair characterization of that be considered
12 factual i.nerrancy?
13 A Yes. I think you could call it that. That
14 everything asserted in the Bible would be factually

15 correct. Yes, that would be a fair characterization.
16 Q In the course of your scholarship, are you aware of

17 whether there are degrees of Biblical literalists?
18 A Oh, yes, there are degrees, certainly.
19 Q Could you give me an example, with particular

20 reference to the .Genesis account of creation as to this
21 creation of Biblical literalism?
22 A Well, there would be, for example, some, I suppose,
23 who would try to maintain, contrary to any other

24 indication, that the world was created, quite literally,
K
25 in six days. There would be others who would try to
/
I. _________________________ ________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________ _____________________
45.
1 P. (Continuing) retrieve that Biblical statement by
2 changing the days into eons or indefinite periods of
3 time. That would be a degree away from strict literalism.
~ And that’s what you asked, if there were degrees of
5 literalistic reading of Genesis.
6 Q Both of those would be an attempt, nonetheless, to

7 maintain a Biblical literalist’s view of Genesis?
S A They would, yes.
9 Q Father Vawter, I have placed before you what has
10 been previously marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit Twenty—Nine

ii for identification, Act 590 of 1981.

12 In the course of your work for me in this case, have you
13 had occasion to review Arkansas Act 590?
14 A Yes, I have.
15 Q And have you, to a reasonable degree of professional

16 certainty, formulated a particular opinion as to the Act?

17 A I did formulate the opinion that this Act, in its

18 description, of what it calls creation science, has, as its

19 unmentioned reference book, the first eleven chapters of
20 Genesis.
21 Q And is it your opinion, sir, that Act 590—— What

22 section is that that you are particularly referring to?
23 14 Section 4.
24 Q And the subdivision?

25
/
46.
1 A Subdivision (a).
2 Q Do you have a view, sir, as to whether 590 is, in

3 fact, a restatement of any particular part of the Bible?
4 A Well, first of all, the text of the Act says that,
5 reation—science embraces, “Sudden creation of the

6 universe, energy, and life from nothing,” which sounds

7 very much like Genesis 1, verse 1.
8 “It changes only within fixed limits of originally

9 reated kinds of plants and animals.” I take it that the

10 anguage there has been extracted from the King James
i~ ersion of the Bible.
12 “Separate ancestry for man and apes.” The Book of

13 enesis very carefully describes the creation of man as
14 omething separate from the animals.
15 “Explanation of the earth’s geology by catastrophism,” a

16 ord which is not in my vocabulary which is defined here

17 S including the occurrence of a worldwide flood. There is

18 o story of creation k~nown to me that includes the stating

19 f a worldwide flood in conjunction with creation or the
20 tory or origins except the Book of Genesis.
21 “And a relatively recent inception of the earth and
22 lying kinds.” I again assume that what this is

23 ttempting to do is take into account the text in the 10th
24 nd 11th chapter of Genesis, where the ages of the

25 enerations between creation and the flood and subsequent
47.

1 A (Continuing) to the flood are counted as tens, and

2 where rather astronomical ages are assigned to these, but

~ added up all together it would be relatively recent.

Q So what you’re saying with regard to the last one,

5 Father Vawter, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that when

6 you calculate the genealogy set forth in Genesis, you will

7 come to—— 8 MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, he’s leading the

9 witness. I’d like to request that he not lead the witness.
10 THE COURT: Okay. This is sort of harmless leading,

it and if it helps clarify it, I’ll let him go ahead.
12 MR. SIANO: I’m trying to focus, Your Honor, the

13 witness on particular computations, since he used the word

14 “assumed”.
15 MR. SIANO: (Continuing):
16 Q Father Vawter, jf I might rephrase the question,

17 would a computation of’ the geneaologies In Genesis lead to

18 the recent inception of the earth?

19 A If you took those literalistically and tallied up

20 the numbers, yes.
21 Q Now, are you aware of any other creation accounts

22 ther than the Genesis account?

23 A I’m aware of a great number of them. I’m more

24 familiar with the ones which have some relationship to the

25 iblical story, particularly the creation myths of ancient
48.

I
1 14 (Continuing) Sumer and Babylonia.

2 Q Are you aware of whether the definition of creation

3 as set forth in Section 4(a) of Act 590 parallels exactly

4 any other creation account of which you have knowledge?
5 A I don’t—— I’m not aware of it, no. But I do not

6 know of any other creation story or story of origins which
7 embraced particularly these points.

8 Q Is the idea of creatio ex nihilo, or creation from

9 nothIng, consistent with a literalistic interpretation of

10 GenesIs?

ii A It certainly is consistent with a literalistic

12 interpretation, yes.
13 Q And is that same idea set forth in Act 590?
14 14 Section 4 (a), “Sudden creation of the universe,
is energy and life from nothing,” yes.
16 Q I take it that’s a yes answer to my question?
17 A That’s a yes answer, yes.
18 Q And is the use of the term “kinds” to describe
19 differing kinds of living organisms consistent with a

20 literalistic interpretation of Genesis?
21 A Yes, I believe it is.
22 Q And is that same idea present in Act 590?
23 A The language of Section 2, it’s number 2 under
24 Section (a), •does use that language, yes.
25 Q Now, you have identified for me and stated in
49.
1 ~ (Continuing) testimony that you are aware of other

2 creation that is different from Genesis. Do any of those

3 creation stories have religious significance?

A Yes, I think they are primarily religious in nature.
5 ~ Could you give me a particular example by way of

6 illustration?
7 14 Well, the ancient Babylonian myths were told

8 precisely to explain to the hearer his situation with

9 regard to the gods, and, therefore, I would say that

10 primarily that’s the reason. So—— 11 Q And each creation myth differs substantially from

12 the creation account recited in Genesis?

13 A There are some parallels. The flood story in

14 Genesis is certainly very closely paralleled by one of the

‘5 Babylonian myths which exists in about ten different 16 forms, I think.

But as I said earlier, that story always parallels a

18 part of Genesis. There is no story which parallels the

19 whole of Genesis.
20 MR. SIANO: I would move the admission of Exhibit

21 Twenty—nine, Act 590, 1981.
22 MR. WILLIAMS: No objection.
23 THE COURT: It will be received.

24 MR. SIANO: No further questions, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Before we start cross examination, I
50.
1 THE COURT: (Continuing) think we’ll take a
2 recess. There is a big crowd, our facilities are limited
3 and everything, so I would ask you to, if you leave, to
~ try to keep in mind that when we reconvene we’d like to
5 have as little disturbance as possible. So try to get
6 back in the courtroom before we reconvene. We’ll have to
7 add about another five minutes to our usual recess, so
8 we’ll reconvene at ten minutes after eleven.
9 I don’t know if this clock back here is right or not,
10 but that’s the one we use.
11 (Thereupon, court was in recess from 10:55 a.m.
12 to 11:10 a.m.)
13 THE COURT: Go ahead.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Assistant Attorney General Rick
is Campbell will conduct the cross examination of this
16 itness.
17 CROSS EXAMINATION
18 V MR. CAMPBELL:
19 Q The Bible is an historic source, is it not?
20 A Partly, yes.
21 Q Do you think that a person should be inhibited from
22 eeking to establish a religious fact by positive
23 mpirical evidence?
24 14 No, I don’t. I don’t think that, not at all.
25
51.
1 Q Are you a Biblical literalist?
2 A No. I don’t not classify myself as such.

3 Q Is there a classic definition of what a Biblical

~ literalist would believe about the Bible?
5 14 I think the classic definition of a Biblical

6 literalist might well be that the Bible means precisely

7 what it says in so many words.

8 Q I believe you testified on direct examination that a

9 Biblical literalist accepts at face value what is asserted

10 by the Bible, is that correct?
ii A I did.

12 Q In looking at Section 4(a) of Act 590 which you
13 testified to on direct examination, that is the

14 definition, Section 4, Creation—Science, can you tell me

15 where on its face that the Book of Genesis speaks of the
16 insufficiency of mutation and natural selection in

17 bringing about the development of all living kinds from a
18 single organism?
19 14 The Book of Genesis does not either affirm or deny

20 the sufficiency of mutation and natural selection in

21 bringing about the development of all living things from a

22 single organism.

23 Q Can you tel]. me one space where the Book of Genesis

24 talks about changes only within fixed limits of originally

25 reated kinds of plants and animals?
52.
1 A On its face, the Book of Genesis describes as

2 separate acts of creation the creation of the plants, the

3 creation of the animals, the creation of man.

Q But can you tell me where on its face where it says
5 that changes only within fixed limits of originally
6 created kinds of plants and animals?
7 A Well, that is language you don’t expect to find in
8 the Bible.
9 Q Can you tell me where on its face the Book of

10 Genesis says there is separate ancestry for man and apes?
ii A No. On is face the Book of Genesis does not say

12 that there is separate ancestry of man and apes. It does

13 describe animals as separately created from man, however.
14 Q Can you tell me on its face where the Book of
15 Genesis seeks to explain the earth’s geology by

16 catastrophism, including the occurrence of a worldwide

ti flood?
18 14 Geology and catastrophism do not appear in the Book

19 f Genesis, but the description of a worldwide flood does.
20 Q Can you tell me on its face where the Book of

21 Genesis speaks about a relatively recent inception of the

22 earth and living kinds?
23 A Relatively recent, I would assume, would be in
24 ice with the adding together of the various

25 al years that are included in the genealogy of the
53.
Pt (Continuing) Book of Genesis.
2
Q Gut on its face, the Book of Genesis does not speak
3
of a relatively recent inception of the earth and living
4
kinds, does it?
5
A No. On its face, it does not.
6
~ And on its face, the Book of Genesis does not speak
7
of the sudden creation of the universe, energy and life
8 from nothing does it?

9
A Those are terms which again you don’t expect to find
10 in Genesis.

11
Q Genesis does not give us any indication of the

12 origin of matter, does it?
13 A That can be debated. Interpreters differ from

14 precisely what the author of Genesis intended in the first several verses as to whether the chaos out of which order

16 is educed by God’s creative power, whether that chaos

17
itself was the creation of the creator. In other words,
18
that would be the symbol that the notion of the origin
19
from nothing would be found in the Book of Genesis.
20 ~ But the Book of Genesis does not give us any

21 indication of the origin of matter, does it?

22
14 No. I do not believe it does. It’s my own
23 interpretation.
24 ~ Genesis is not concerned with how things came to be,

25
~ it?
54.

/
A In my interpretation, it’s not.
2 Q And Genesis is only concerned with who the author of

~ creation is, isn’t it?
A In my interpretion, true.
5 Q The process of how things came to be is for us to

6 discovery from empirical evidence, isn’t it?
7 14 That’s my position, yes.
8 Q And you’re not in any capacity a judge of the value

9 of scientific data, are you?
10 A No. I simply have a journeyman’s idea of science.
11 I take my science from the scientists.
12 Q You cannot distinguish creation as it is described
13 •n the Book of Genesis from scientific creation, can you?
14 A I don’t know what scientific creation means.
15 Q But you can’t make any distinction between the two,
16 an you?
17 A Without knowing what one of the terms is, I can’t
18 ake the distinction, no.
19 Q You’ve only studied creation in a religious context,
20 aven’t you?
21 A Yes, I have.
22 Q And you’re not a scientist, are you?
23 14 Iamnot.
24 G~ Is evolution—science as it is defined in Act 590 ——
25 hat’s in Section 4(b) of the Act —— is that consistent
55.

/
Q (continuing) with your interpretation of the Book

2 of Genesis?
3 14 I don’t accept the terminology, evolution—science,
4 as though there is an opposition between that and

~ creation—science, as though evolution is somehow opposed
6 to the doctrine of the creation.

Q But what we have are two separate definitions in Act 8 590; Section 4(a) describes or defines, partially defines
9 creation—science, and Section 4(b) partially defines

10 evolution—science for purposes of this Act.

Do you believe that evolution—science, as it is defined

12 in Act 590, is consistent with your interpretation of the

13 Book of Genesis?
14 A I believe that evolution is consistent with my

15 interpretation of the Book of Genesis. I would not want

16 to go warrant for the definition of evolution—science as

17 given in the Act, however.

18 MR. CAMPBELL: I have no further questions.

19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
20 Y MR. SIANO:
21 Q Father Vawter, do you have any ongoing familiarity

22 with the Biblical literalist view of the Genesis account?
23 A Yes. I am editor of a Bibliographical service which

24 is called Old Testament Abstracts, in which we abstract
25 articles from any number of several hundred
56.
1 A (Continuing) journals, and in the course of that,
2 being also one of the abstractors, I have occasion to read
3 material from Fundamentalist sources, as well as others.
Q Now, do you still have Exhibit Twenty—Nine in front
5 of you?
6 14 Yes.
7 Q I direct your attention to Section 4(a), the six
8 subpoints therein. Now, the concept in Section 4(a),
9 subdivision (1), creation from nothing, is that concept
io identical to a concept of creatio ex nihilo embraced by
~ Biblical literalists?
12 14 Yes, I believe it is.
13 Q And the source of the Biblical literalists’ position
14 on creatio ex nihilo is what?
15 A The Book of Genesis.
16 Q Now, Section 4(a), subdivision (2), “Insufficiency
17 of mutation and natural selection in bringing about the
18 development of all living kinds.” “All living kinds,” is
19 that consistent with a concept of creation of kinds held
20 by Biblical literalists?
21 14 Yes, I believe it is.
22 Q And the source of the Biblical literalist’s view as
23 to that is what?
24 A The Book of Genesis.
25
57.
Q Subdivision (3), Section 4(a), “Changes within only
2 fixed limits of originally created kinds of plants and
3 animals,” the concept recited there, is that consistent
~ with a Biblical literalist’s view of creation?
5 A The concept is, yes.
6 Q And the source of the Biblical literalists’ view as
7 to that point is what?
8 A The Book of Genesis.
9 Q Subdivision (4), “Separate ancestry of man from
io apes,” that concept, is that held by the Biblical
11 literalists?
12 A It is.
13 Q And the source of that concept is what?
14 A The Book of Genesis.
is Q Subdivision (5), Section 4(a), “Explanation of the
16 earth’s geology by worldwide flood,”. is that concept
17 y the Biblical literalists as an element in
18 .tion?
19 A It is.
20 Q And the source of that concept is what?
21 A The Book of Genesis.
22 Q Subdivision (6), “Recent inception of the earth,” is
23 1 hat concept as part of creation embraced by Biblical
24 .iteralists?
25 14 It is.
58.
1 Q And the source is what?
2 ~ The Book of Genesis.
Q Now, you are aware of the Biblical literalist view
~ of Genesis, are you not, from your scholarship?
5 A I am.
6 Q And are these six elements key tenets of a Biblical
7 literalist’s interpretation of Genesis?
8 A To the best of my knowledge, yes.
9 Q And are you aware of any other theory of origins,
10 other than a Biblical literalist view of Genesis, which
11 recites these key tenets in view of origins?
12 A I am not aware of it, no.
13 MR. SIANO: No further questions, Your Honor.
14 MR. CAMPBELL: Nothing further.
15 THE COURT: Could this witness be excused?
16 MR. SIANO: Yes, Your Honor.
17 At this time Plaintiffs call George Marsden.
18 Thereupon,
19 GEORGE MARSDEN,
20 called in behalf of the plaintiffs herein, after having
21 been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and
22 testified as follows:
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. SIANO:
25 Q Would you state your name for the record?
59.
1 A George Marsden.
2 Q What is your address?
3 14 loll Worthen Southeast, Grand Rapids, Michigan.
4 Q What is your occupation and place of employment, sir?
5 A I’m a professor of history at Calvin College, Grand
6. Rapids, Michigan.
7 MR.SIANO: Your Honor, at this time I would like to
8 offer to the Court for its consideration Plaintiff’s
9 Exhibit Number Ninety—One for identification, the resume
10 of Professor Marsden.
11 THE COURT: Okay, sir.
12 MR. SIANO: (Continuing)
13 Q Professor Marsden, could you tell me a little bit
14 about your area of research and scholarship?
15 ~ I’m a specialist in American religious history,
16 primarily the history of American Protestantism and
17 Evangelicalism.
18 Q Your area of scholarship and research, does that
i~ include the Fundamentalist influence on America?
20 A Yes, it does.
21 Q Have you authored any books on Fundamentalists?
22 14 Yes. I’ve written a book called Fundamentalism and
23 American Culture.
24 Q When was that published?
25
60.
1 14 It was published in 1980.
2 Q And has that book received any awards?
3 A Yes. It was just recently awarded Book of the Year
~ by Eternity Magazine, which is a large evangelical
5 counterpart magazine.

6 Q How long have you studied Fundamentalism in America?

7 A Well, I worked on research in writing the book for
8 about ten years, and to some extent for ten or fifteen
9 years before that.
10 MR. SIANO: Your Honor, I would offer Professor
~ Marsden as an expert on church history and Fundamentalism

12 in American.
13 MR. CAMPBELL: Your Honor, may I voir dire the
14 witness?
15 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
16 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. CAMPBELL:
18 Q Professor Marsden, your expertise is really limited
19 to a discussibn of Fundamentalism in America to 1930,
20 isn’t it?
21 ~ I don’t think so.
22 Q Did you remember on November 21st of this year, when
23 I was taking your deposition in Chicago?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q Mr. Siano was present at that time, wasn’t he?
61.
1 A Yes, he was.
2 Q Do you recall our discussion of Fundamentalism at
3 that time?

A Yes.
5 Q Do you recall my questioning you on whether or not

6 you are an expert on contemporary as opposed to historical
7 Fundamentalism?
8 A Well, okay. I need a definition from you what an
9 expert would be.
10 Let’s put it this way, I’ve written a book on
11 Fundamentalism up until 1930. I have studied
12 Fundamentalism to a lesser extent from 1930 to the

13 present, and am currently working in that area.
14 I would say I’m not as much of an expert in the latter

15 area as I am in the former, if I’m going to go either way.
16 Q Professor Marsden, do you recall during that

17 deposition —— I’d like to show you a copy of this and ask

18 if you would to read into the record beginning on page 68

19 of your deposition. All right, it’s the question by me

20 and then your answer, the next question and the next
21 answer, if you would, please, sir.
22 14 The question is, “When you talk about your
23 expertise, you really go up to 1930.”

• 24 My answer is, “Yes. There are things like the World 25 Christian Fundamentalist Association. I can’t remember
62.
1 14 (Continuing) all the names of the groups, but they
2 are something like they Anti—Evolution League or something
3 like that, or the Bryan Anti—Evolution League, whatever,
4 the Bible Crusaders. There were all kinds of groups.
I might say, I don’t seem to be answering the question.
6 Q Would you please just read the deposition, sir.
7 MR. SIANO: Your Honor, I would object, since there
8 is a proper form to present a deposition to a witness, and
9 I would suggest to Mr. Campbell that he might ask the
• io witness if he recalls the particular question and answer.
ii I would object to this method of questioning my witness,
12 and particularly approaching it in this way.
13 THE COURT: Why don’t you follow the procedure.
14 MR. CAMPBELL: (Continuing)
15 Q Professor Marsden, do you recall my asking you the
16 question, “Just so we can get this straight, and I don’t
17 ant to go back and repeat what we’ve talked about in
18 terms of your expertise, but will you be talking about
19 ontemporary Fundamentalism, or Fundamentalism as it
20 xists today, or will you be narrowing your testimony to
21 undamentalism at the beginning of the nineteenth century,
22 1920 or 1930.”
23 And do you recall your answer to that?
24 A No, I don’t.
25 Q (Reading) “I think, I guess I’ll be emphasizing
137.
Q (Continuing) cell biology and ecology, all three
2 reflected the fact that modern biological research is
3 based on evolutionary assumptions which were described as,
4 quote, the warp and woof of modern biology, close quote.
5 A And you are saying that is parallel to saying
6 creationism is based on——
7 MR. CRAWFORD: If your Honor please, from what page
8 is he reading?
g MR. WILLIAMS: Page 33, the first page.
10 MR. CRAWFORD: Could you tell me where on the first
ii page?
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Third column, at the very top.
13 MR. CRAWFORD: Thank you.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: (Continuing)
15 Q My question is, you earlier stated——
16 14 Yes, I get your question now. Creationism is based
17 on a priori assumptions about the existence of a designer.
18 Q Is evolution based on a priori assumptions?
19 A No.
20 ~ It’s not?
21 14 Well, the only a priori assumption it’s based on is
22 that there are natural processes at work. It’s certainly
23 not based on any assumptions about the existence of a
24 designer or a god, and it’s not trying to prove anything;
25 it’s trying to test——It’s trying to look skeptically at
FILED
U.S. DISTRICT COUt~T
EASTEri~ DISTRICT AflgA~SAS

MAY 61933
CARL R.1REN~y~CLE~K)

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION

REVEREND BILL McLEAN, et al

Plaintiffs
v. NO. LR—C-81—322

ARKANSAS STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION,
et al

Defendants

VOLUME III

Page 446 - 704

Sandra Smith, CVR
Official Court Rcporter
—.Y—u.
United States District Court
Post Office Box 1540
Little Rock, Arkansas 7220.3
481.
1 A (Continuing) in the .taooratory that we are able to
2 crystalize. And they always form these crystalline
~ textures. We can also ooserve things like lava flows and
watch them cool today and see what kind of textures they
5 produce.
6 There has been an experiment since 1959 going on in the
7 Kilauea—Iki lava lake. Now, Kilauea—Iki is a small

8 volcano event on the top of the Kilauea volcano, wnich is

9 one of the five volcanoes which make up the island of
10 Hawaii.

ii And in 1959, Kilauea—Iki erupted, it not only threw up

12 fountains of lava, lava flows, out it formed a large pool

13 of lava that was captured in a crater. And that lava is

14 hundreds of feet thick. Since 1959, scientists have been

is drilling down through that lava, watching it crystallize.

16 Every few years they go Dack and drill another hole and

17 watch the degree to which that lava lake is cooled. It

18 takes a long time for this to cool. This is a fairly
19 thick one.

20 And we see that in the case of lava lakes and lava flows
21 and these things, when they cool from their melt, from

22 their liquid, they form these textures that are unique to
23 all rocks that pool from a liquid. When we go to a

24 granite and we see these same textures, then I think we

25 are entitled to presume that these rocks also formed from
607.

/
1 A (Continuing) and if you limit a teacher to only
2 one side of anything, the whole country will eventually
3 have only one thought, oe one indiviaual. I oelieve in
4 teaching every aspect of every proolem or theory.”
5 I oelieve tflere is another paragraph there. The
6 last paragraph that starts with the word “finally”. Would
7 you please read tnat into tne record?
8 14 “Finally, we cannot imagine that the cause of truth
9 is served ny keeping unpopular or minority ideas under
10 wraps——”
11 Q And the next sentence, please?

12 14 “——today’s students are much less inclined than

13 tnose of former generations to unquestionaoly accept the

14 pronouncements of authority. Specious arguments can only oe exposed oy examining them. Nothing is so unscientific

16 as the inquisition mentality that served to flood the

17 truth oy seeking to suppress or conceal dissent rather

18 than oy grappling with it. Tnerefore, we will oriefly

19 state, for those who are interested, several major

20 thesis,” etcetera, etcetera.
21 Q Have you had articles refused for publication?
22 A Yes.

23 Q Does the fact that somebody has articles refused
24 for puolication indicate that they are not a reputaDle
25 scientist?
683.

I
THE WITNESS: My interpretation of that is a
2 relatively recent inception would be in the neighborhood
of ten thousand years ago. Because all I’ve heard from
4
the scientific point of view is that the earth is maybe

four and a half billion years old. I’ve heard no other 6 explanations in the area of science that would give an age

~ that was much younger than that.
8 Like I said, I have to rely upon my background, and I do

~ know from a religious background—— 10 THE COURT: Where do you get the ten thousand year

11 figure?
12 THE WITNESS: I’ve seen the ten thousand year

13 figure quoted in terms of a various assortment of

14 pamphlets and textbooks. I can’t identify specifically

15 which ones, but that’s something. I don’t know that it’s

16 ten thousand years, as such, but—— 17 THE COURT: Are you talking about current textbooks

18 currently used in the schools, or are you talking about—— 19 THE WITNESS: No. I’m talking about creation

20 science pamphlets and booklets and so forth that I have
21 examined.
22 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, would this be a good time
23 to take a break for the day?
24 THE COURT: No. Let’s go ahead and finish with

25 thiS witness.
772.
I ~ (Continuing) educational principles and techniques?
2 A That’s correct.
Q Do you nave any formal academic training in
psychology?
14 Yes, I do.
6 ~ How much?
A Oh, approximately twenty—four hours, I would say.
8 Q Any at the graduate level?
A No.
10 ~ All undergraduate?
11 A No. I take that Dack. Yes, I do have. Probably
12 half of it is at tne graduate level. I was thinking of
13 post graduate.
14 Q Can you define for me what is the scientific
15 community? You’ve talked about the body of science.

16 Science says, they say, we say. Is that the scientific
17 community?
18 A Do you want it in specifics?
19 Q Yes. Is “they”—— Are “they” the scientific
20 community?
21 A Well, when I say “they”, I’m referring to the
22 scientific community.
23 Q Now, tell me what that is?

24 A The scientific community is made up of the men and ~ / 25 women who work in the field of science each day. And
792.
1 ~ (continuing) academic freedom?
2 A I would have to give it further thought.

Q Okay. Does it exceed professional ethics?

14 In my opinion as a scientist, it does, as a science

~ ducator, it does.
6 ~ As a science educator, it does?
14 Witnin the science classroom, I think it does.
8 ~ Why?

A Because it is not science. It is a metaphysical

10 religious concept.
11 Q And that’s based on your independent research and
12 study of tne materials that you found?
13 A That’s based on a professional opinion.
14 Q Based on independent research you’ve done with
is materials you’ve reviewed?
16 A That’s true.
17 Q And your scientific training, which you haven’t had
18 any since 1968, is that right?
19 14 That’s correct.
20 Q Do you decide what is good science and what is bad
21 science in your classroom?
22 A I think that is part of my responsibility as a
23 teacher.
24 Q How do you make that decision, Mr. Coward?
25 A There again, trying to ~e aware of, conscious of
819.

1
A (Continuing) of the name, Pulaski County Special
2 School District, and of course, the particular heading to

3
the superintendent.
4
MR. CRAWFORD: If your Honor please, I’d like

Exhibit 28 received into evidence.
6 THE COURT: It will be received.
MR. CRAWFORD: (Continuing)
8 Q As a result of the passage of that resolution-- And

~ it was passed, was it not?
10 ~ Yes.
11 ~ ——what did the Pulaski School System do?

12 A I believe that at that school board meeting as a

13 result of this presentation and the action taken on it—— 14 MR. CHILDS: Your Honor, I’d like to interpose an

15 objection at this time on the basis that this is hearsay.

16 I understand that Marianne Wilson is going to testify.

17 And my knowledge from her deposition is that she has a

18 much closer personal knowledge of what happened regarding

19 the formulation of the creation unit than Mr. Wood does,

20 and I would object on the basis of hearsay, no showing

21 that this witness has personal knowledge, which would make
22 him competent to testify about these matters.
23 MR. CRAWFORD: Your Honor please, Mr. Wood is not

24 going to testify about the drafting of the creation unit
25 that was ultimately written. He was a member of the
822.

Q (Continuing) text the exhibit number that we have
2
attached to the book previously. And if you would, as you
3
read tne list, if you could just identify the exhibit
4
number where there is an exhibit number.
A Yes.
6 Exhibit 73, The Age of the Earth by Slusher; Exhibit

7
72, Origin and Destiny of the Eartn’s Magnetic Field by
~ Barnes; Exhibit 79, Creation—Evolution Controversy,
~ Wysong; Exhibit 75, Scientific Creationism, public school
10 edition, by Morris; 71, Origin of the Universe by
11 Siusher; 77, Evolution: The Fossils Say No, public
12 school edition, by Gish; the next one has not yet been
13 introduced as evidence, Tne Natural Sciences Know Nothing
14 of Evolution ~y Wildersrnith; Exhibit 81, Origin:
15 Evolution — Creation by Bliss; 80, Origin of Life:
16 Evolution — Creation, Bliss and Parker; 57, Fossils: Key
17 to the Present, Bliss, Parker and Gish; and then the last
18 two are not listed currently as items in the record,
19 Tracking Those Incrediole Dinasours and the People Who
20 Knew Them by Morris; and finally, The Age of the Solar
21 System by Slusher and Duursma.
22 Q And what conclusions did the committee reach after
23 examining the materials?
24 14 The conclusion reached by the committee was that we
25 did not see any science in these materials.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________ _________________________________________________________________________________________________ ________________________
955.

CERTIFICATE

I, Sandra Smith. CVR, Official Court Reporter for the Eastern District of Arkansas, do hereby certify that the foregoing pages constitute a true and accurate transcription of a portion of the proceedings held in the above-entitled cause before the Honorable William R. Overton, United States

District Judge, Little Rock, Arkansas, December 7-17, 1981.

I,

WITNESS MY HAND this 6th day f May, 1983.

/

Sandra Smith, CVR
Official Court Reporter
United States District Court
Post Office Box 1540
Little Rock, Arkansas 72203