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Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Sat, 2014-03-15 05:36
Post by sparc
Indeed, none of these Quote primary proponents of ID (Dembski, Behe, Meyer, et al.) will ever join a meeting which claims  
Quote “The goal of REASONS 2014 will be to demonstrate the beautiful compatibility and synergy of the natural sciences and orthodox Christianity.”
Categories: AE Public BB

Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Sat, 2014-03-15 05:27
Post by sparc
Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 14 2014,23:03)     Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 14 2014,21:51)     Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 14 2014,14:32)A terrible idea:

      Quote 108
StephenBMarch 14, 2014 at 1:01 pm
UD administrators: I believe that GPuccio, Eric Anderson, and Timaeus should be given posting privileges

A great idea:
Give Joe G, Batshit77 and Gary Gaulin positing priveleges.

Look, UD / ID is dying a tragic, slow death. Let's make the last season awesome with SWEARING! YOUTUBE! and MYTHEORYOFID!
If they really wanted to get back in blog hits, they would give one of us posting rights.
Barry gave it to those three no-marks and passed Joe over. Poor Chubsy. Do it for the Lulz, Barry!
you beat me on that:     Quote 117 Barry Arrington March 14, 2014 at 5:53  pm     Quote GPuccio, Eric Anderson, and Timaeus should be given posting privilegesAgreed. They now have them.
Some preview from a current comment:
  Quote
116
Eric AndersonMarch 14, 2014 at 5:50 pm

Mapou @109:

Intelligent design has been defined by the primary proponents of ID (Dembski, Behe, Meyer, et al.) as the idea that “certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process.” Period. That’s it.

Yes, that inference includes — by definition if something is designed — a reference to the existence of a designer, but it does not get into questions about the designer’s intent, identity, purposes, desires, motives, methods or otherwise.

These second-order questions may be interesting in their own right. And an affirmative answer to the design question may have implications for some of these second-order questions, but they are logically distinct and separate and must be recognized as such.

The fact that a forum like UD hosts various threads and contains comments and tangents, including from those who desire to delve into these second-order questions, has nothing to do with whether or not these issues should be kept carefully separate. I will be the first to acknowledge that the second-order questions are interesting, but they must not be conflated with the fundamental questions that intelligent design asks.

A tremendous amount of effort, time, energy, and spilled ink has been spent by the primary proponents of intelligent design to make sure everyone is clear on this point.

Unfortunately, as anyone familiar with the debate knows, and as UB has aptly pointed out, one of the primary ploys of anti-ID rhetoric is to conflate the question of design detection with secondary questions about the identity, intent, methods, motives, etc. of this or that putative designer.

It is therefore supremely unhelpful for anyone who is hoping to advance the debate or bring clarity to the discussion to conflate the two and claim that ID somehow includes or “merges” these second-order questions with the purely objective and scientific inquiry about whether design is detectable. It is extremely unhelpful for public perception, and it is wrong logically.
In other words:   Quote So! It's all forgotten now, and let's hear no more about it. So, that's two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Hermann Goering, and four Colditz salads.
Indeed, none of the  primary proponents of ID (Dembski, Behe, Meyer, et al.) ever join a meeting which claims   Quote “The goal of REASONS 2014 will be to demonstrate the beautiful compatibility and synergy of the natural sciences and orthodox Christianity.”
Categories: AE Public BB

Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Sat, 2014-03-15 04:03
Post by Richardthughes
Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 14 2014,21:51) Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 14 2014,14:32)A terrible idea:

  Quote 108
StephenBMarch 14, 2014 at 1:01 pm
UD administrators: I believe that GPuccio, Eric Anderson, and Timaeus should be given posting privileges

A great idea:
Give Joe G, Batshit77 and Gary Gaulin positing priveleges.

Look, UD / ID is dying a tragic, slow death. Let's make the last season awesome with SWEARING! YOUTUBE! and MYTHEORYOFID!
If they really wanted to get back in blog hits, they would give one of us posting rights.
Barry gave it to those three no-marks and passed Joe over. Poor Chubsy. Do it for the Lulz, Barry!
Categories: AE Public BB

Joe G.'s Tardgasm

AE Public Forum - Sat, 2014-03-15 03:15
Post by Henry J
Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 14 2014,12:54)Doesn't look like Petrushka even knows that Joe exists.
Some people have all the luck?  
Categories: AE Public BB

Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Sat, 2014-03-15 02:51
Post by OgreMkV
Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 14 2014,14:32)A terrible idea:

Quote 108
StephenBMarch 14, 2014 at 1:01 pm
UD administrators: I believe that GPuccio, Eric Anderson, and Timaeus should be given posting privileges

A great idea:
Give Joe G, Batshit77 and Gary Gaulin positing priveleges.

Look, UD / ID is dying a tragic, slow death. Let's make the last season awesome with SWEARING! YOUTUBE! and MYTHEORYOFID!
If they really wanted to get back in blog hits, they would give one of us posting rights.
Categories: AE Public BB

A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Sat, 2014-03-15 01:36
Post by stevestory
Gary why don't you head over to Dembski's old blog, http://uncommondescent.com/....ent.com and see if you can find supporters who might promote your theory?
Categories: AE Public BB

Joe G.'s Tardgasm

AE Public Forum - Sat, 2014-03-15 01:18
Post by Driver
Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 14 2014,19:54)Doesn't look like Petrushka even knows that Joe exists.
Let him know when you see him.
Categories: AE Public BB

Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Fri, 2014-03-14 19:32
Post by Richardthughes
A terrible idea:

Quote 108
StephenBMarch 14, 2014 at 1:01 pm
UD administrators: I believe that GPuccio, Eric Anderson, and Timaeus should be given posting privileges

A great idea:
Give Joe G, Batshit77 and Gary Gaulin positing priveleges.

Look, UD / ID is dying a tragic, slow death. Let's make the last season awesome with SWEARING! YOUTUBE! and MYTHEORYOFID!
Categories: AE Public BB

Wyoming blocks NGSS over climate

A footnote in Wyoming's budget for 2014 precludes the use of state funds "for any review or adoption" of the Next Generation Science Standards, and one of its authors acknowledges that the NGSS's treatment of climate change is a reason for the prohibition.

Categories: Pro-Science News

Introgressive hybridization and the Galapagos finches

ARN ID Update - Fri, 2014-03-14 11:12

A branching pattern of variation was central to Darwin's concept of speciation. As one population of organisms follows one trajectory, another population may spin off in a different direction. When they are sufficiently far apart, they are considered to be separate species. The Galapagos finches have been regarded as exemplars of Darwinian transformation, even leading to the claim that one newly developed population is "behaving as a separate species". However, the most recent study, from one of the smaller islands (Floreana), concludes that the most likely cause of the disappearance of one of these species is hybridization.

"The authors suggest that hybridization may have been responsible for the disappearance of the large tree finch from Floreana, and that it may now be causing the remaining two species to fuse into one: speciation in reverse." (p.179)


Small Tree Finch (C. parvulus) from Floreana, about 4 years old. (Credit: Jeremy Robertson, source here)

Until recently, three species of tree finch were known from Floreana Island. Morphological differences noted were limited to body size and beak dimensions. Their names are the small tree finch, the medium tree finch, and the large tree finch. They are found living together in several other Galapagos islands. Now Kleindorfer and colleagues report that the large tree finch has disappeared from Floreana. The remaining two species are affected by hybridization.

"The analyses also revealed that individuals that do not fit into either population show intermediate characteristics, suggesting that they are hybrids. Consistent with the hypothesis of ongoing hybridization on the island, the authors observed females of the morphologically larger group (the medium tree finch) pairing with males of the smaller group, and they identified 15% of yearling males in 2010 as hybrids." (p.170)

Most of the researchers appear to think that their studies are probing the essence of speciation, and are providing the empirical evidence that supports the Darwinist claim that natural selection acting on inheritable variation is the key to understanding the origin of species. Peter and Rosemary Grant say that these studies are "Uniquely valuable in showing how speciation is done" (p.179). Kleindorfer et al. say that research programmes over "the past 2 decades have transformed our understanding of the ecological context of processes that underpin speciation" (p.325). With specific reference to the new findings, they write:

"The results presented here go to the heart of evolutionary biology: by what criteria do we denote species, and by what criteria do new species form or collapse? Here we present evidence that three sympatric species of Darwin's tree finches in the 1900s have collapsed, under conditions of hybridization, into two species by the 2000s. The proportion of yearling hybrid birds increased from 0% in 2005 to 14.6% in 2010, indicating a potential for elevated hybrid fitness in this system. [. . .] There is widespread agreement that the benefits of hybridization include increased genetic variance that facilitates novel evolutionary trajectories in changing environments." (p.334)

Whilst the new research is a useful contribution to knowledge, the results do not go to "the heart of evolutionary biology". The reason is that the important questions to do with diversity in the living world relate to the origin of biological information. What factors and processes are relevant to building novelty and complexity? The finches of Floreana Island are distinguished by very minor morphological differences, and the observed changes tell us nothing about the origin of new biological information.

Please can we have some realism from researchers adhering to the Darwinian paradigm. In the main, their research findings cast light on ecology but they are failing to touch the real challenges facing evolutionary biology. This assessment of their work is now appearing in mainstream peer-reviewed literature and in articles written by influential scientists. Here is a comment from Professor John Dupre, who is Director of the ESRC Center for Genomics in Society, University of Exeter.

"Further destabilizing evolutionary theory is the growing realization that many factors, not just the genome, determine an individual organism's development. Ironically, as the discovery of DNA's structure - initially lauded as the final act in the triumph of the new synthesis - led to a better understanding of genomes' functioning, it ended up weakening belief in their unique role in directing biological development. Those who long deplored the omission of development from evolutionary models - a decades-old critique made under the scientific banner of evolutionary developmental biology ("evo-devo") - together with the insistence that organisms' development draws on a wide variety of resources, have been vindicated.
"Recent developments in molecular biology have put the final nail in the coffin of traditional genetic determinism. For example, epigenetics - the study of heritable modifications of the genome that do not involve alterations to the genetic code - is on the rise. And the many kinds of small RNA molecules are increasingly recognized as forming a regulatory layer above the genome.
"Beyond undermining the gene-centered theories of evolution that have dominated public consciousness for several decades, these developments call for new philosophical frameworks. Traditional reductionist views of science, with their focus on "bottom-up" mechanisms, do not suffice in the quest to understand top-down and circular causality and a world of nested processes." (Source here. Related comments are here)

Of the greatest urgency is attention to educational textbooks. For too long, the Darwinists have maintained a hegemony that resists all critiques of their arguments. Typically, they present any questioning of their interpretation of the evidence as religiously motivated and anti-science. For the good of science, this situation has to change.

Species Collapse via Hybridization in Darwin's Tree Finches
Sonia Kleindorfer, Jody A. O'Connor, Rachael Y. Dudaniec, Steven A. Myers, Jeremy Robertson, and Frank J. Sulloway
The American Naturalist, Vol. 183, No. 3, March 2014, 325-341.

Abstract: Species hybridization can lead to fitness costs, species collapse, and novel evolutionary trajectories in changing environments. Hybridization is predicted to be more common when environmental conditions change rapidly. Here, we test patterns of hybridization in three sympatric tree finch species (small tree finch Camarhynchus parvulus, medium tree finch Camarhynchus pauper, and large tree finch: Camarhynchus psittacula) that are currently recognized on Floreana Island, Galapagos Archipelago. Genetic analysis of microsatellite data from contemporary samples showed two genetic populations and one hybrid cluster in both 2005 and 2010; hybrid individuals were derived from genetic population 1 (small morph) and genetic population 2 (large morph). Females of the large and rare species were more likely to pair with males of the small common species. Finch populations differed in morphology in 1852?1906 compared with 2005/2010. An unsupervised clustering method showed (a) support for three morphological clusters in the historical tree finch sample (1852?1906), which is consistent with current species recognition; (b) support for two or three morphological clusters in 2005 with some (19%) hybridization; and (c) support for just two morphological clusters in 2010 with frequent (41%) hybridization. We discuss these findings in relation to species demarcations of Camarhynchus tree finches on Floreana Island.

Speciation undone
Peter R. Grant & B. Rosemary Grant
Nature, 507, 178-179 (13 March 2014) | doi:10.1038/507178b

Hybridization can cause two species to fuse into a single population. New observations suggest that two species of Darwin's finches are hybridizing on a Galapagos island, and that a third one has disappeared through interbreeding.

Categories: Anti-Science News

“Cosmos” and the Bruno Flap

W.R. Elsberry's The Austringer - Fri, 2014-03-14 04:01
Neil deGrasse Tyson’s rebooted “Cosmos” series spent a chunk of time relating a version of the life of Giordano Bruno, including his interactions with the Inquisition of the Roman Catholic Church and subsequent burning at the stake. This has proven unpopular with the heirs of the Inquisition and other nit-pickers. From the Discovery Institute’s “Evolution […]
Categories: Pro-Science News

Louisiana edges toward repealing 1981 creationist law

Louisiana's Senate Bill 70 (PDF). which if enacted would repeal the state's Balanced Treatment for Creation-Science and Evolution-Science Act, passed the Senate Education Committee on March 12, 2014, according to the New Orleans Times-Picayune (March 12, 2014).

Categories: Pro-Science News

Darwin Day bill in Hawaii

House Resolution 145, introduced in the Hawaii House of Representatives on March 7, 2014, would, if enacted, express the House's recognition of February 12 of each year as Darwin Day "to celebrate all of Charles Darwin's achievements in the field of science."

Categories: Pro-Science News

Am I an Occasionalist? Christian Philosophy and Intelligent Design

First Things is a magazine I like and find interesting. Just recently they have come out with a criticism of intelligent design by philosopher-scientist Stephen Meredith. Howard Ahmanson
Categories: Anti-Science News

Science Review Article: "Nothing in Evolution Makes Sense Except in the Light of Biology"

A major journal observes that key assumptions of the neo-Darwinian synthesis are being overturned. Casey Luskin http://www.discovery.org/p/188
Categories: Anti-Science News

Now, According to the National Center for Science Education, We Are the "Merchants of Doubt"

It rhymes with "merchants of death." How is that for fair, honest, scientific commentary? Donald McLaughlin http://www.discovery.org/p/611
Categories: Anti-Science News

Cosmos Is Slammed for its "Inaccurate" and "Revisionist" History of Giordano Bruno

Even staunch evolutionist Hank Campbell at Science 2.0 says: "It is the story of Bruno as if it were written by a blogger on some 'free thought' site." Casey Luskin http://www.discovery.org/p/188
Categories: Anti-Science News

Legislators Demand Answers about Intelligent Design Ban at Ball State University

"Your policy banning professors from expressing their views on intelligent design raises many troubling questions." Evolution News & Views
Categories: Anti-Science News

The View from Angel Falls

I guess I am a theistic evolutionist when it comes to waterfalls. Granville Sewell
Categories: Anti-Science News

Three More Codes in Nature to Decipher

Three unexpected instances of coding have been found in the living world, supporting ID's focus on information in nature. Evolution News & Views
Categories: Anti-Science News
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