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Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Thu, 2014-01-23 15:23
Post by Soapy Sam
Quote (olegt @ Jan. 23 2014,14:41)   Quote (Soapy Sam @ Jan. 23 2014,08:33)But surely still, as a shorthand, 'interaction'? Interactions between atoms and molecules in pure form or solution change with energy distribution, number and the properties of the atoms in any surrounding medium. That there are discrete phase transitions doesn't go against the simplistic notion that collective properties arise from summed complex interactions.
A bit too simplistic. Surely, if atoms didn't interact then there would not be any solids. Or liquids, for that matter. But just saying "interactions are responsible for rigidity" misses an essential point. Interactions between atoms exist in both liquids and solids. However, solids keep their shapes and liquids do not. The presence of interactions does not explain this key difference. So alluding to interactions is not an explanation.
It's true - it's no more an explanation than 'emergence' is. I merely regard them as approximately synonymous, and it evades the slightly mystical quality that emergence seems to engender.

phoodoo, I'm betting, would waft away any scientific understanding of this or that specific emergent phenomenon because it does not extend to his chosen example - ants, or brain cells. He wants THE scientific explanation for emergence as a phenomenon - everything beyond the naked quark, if such can stand alone. And the fundamental, explains-nothing-by-itself quality of emergent phenomena is that they result from interactions, building onion-like up to and including the level of interest.
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Pssst ... look at the Birthday Calendar!

AE Public Forum - Thu, 2014-01-23 15:01
Post by BillB
Yes, indeed. Happy birthday to you (and also to me, I turned 41 last Sunday)
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Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Thu, 2014-01-23 14:41
Post by olegt
Quote (Soapy Sam @ Jan. 23 2014,08:33)But surely still, as a shorthand, 'interaction'? Interactions between atoms and molecules in pure form or solution change with energy distribution, number and the properties of the atoms in any surrounding medium. That there are discrete phase transitions doesn't go against the simplistic notion that collective properties arise from summed complex interactions.
A bit too simplistic. Surely, if atoms didn't interact then there would not be any solids. Or liquids, for that matter. But just saying "interactions are responsible for rigidity" misses an essential point. Interactions between atoms exist in both liquids and solids. However, solids keep their shapes and liquids do not. The presence of interactions does not explain this key difference. So alluding to interactions is not an explanation.
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Pssst ... look at the Birthday Calendar!

AE Public Forum - Thu, 2014-01-23 14:34
Post by deadman_932
Happy birthday, Phil and Wes.
How does it feel being THAT old?
HAHAHAHAHA.
No, really, you're old
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A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Thu, 2014-01-23 14:33
Post by k.e..
Jesus fucking Christ Gary where is the Hopfield net?
Just a bunch of nested loops, man ur such a bullshitter.
Samsung called and they want their wasted RAM back you fucking turkey.
Go ahead and send that to whomever you like but attach a picture of turkey just to make sure they get the joke. Here's one if you can't find a turkey on the webs.
<img src="http:// http://techjost.com/wp-cont....g" border="0" max-width="560" />
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Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Thu, 2014-01-23 14:33
Post by Soapy Sam
Quote (olegt @ Jan. 23 2014,12:45)The notion of emergence in science, as I understand it, begins with a negative statement.

For example, the rigidity of a solid is not explained by the properties of atoms that make it up. You can know everything about the atomic structure and energy levels and even about interactions of atoms. But you still don't understand what makes a solid rigid. When you attempt to deform a piece of ice and it resists your efforts, you can't just say "Oh, atoms are hard and so is the solid they make up." Because when that piece of ice melts, you can deform the resulting water easily. And it is made of the same atoms. So it's not about atoms.

But of course making a negative statement does not explain anything. You need a positive theory. The rigidity of crystals is explained by spontaneous breaking of the symmetries of translations and rotations in them. The vacuum is translationally and rotationally invariant: it looks the same if you move by an angstrom left or right or if you turn your head. A liquid is also translationally and rotationally invariant: there are no preferred positions or directions in it. A crystal isn't: atoms form a periodic structure; shifting by an angstrom left or right shifts the periodic lattice; turning your head changes its orientation with respect to the crystal's face.

So the rigidity of a crystal turns out to be a property that is not possessed by the atoms constituting a solid. It only emerges when a large collection of atoms does something entirely new: spontaneously breaks some symmetries of the vacuum. Rigidity is a canonical example of emergence in science. Contrary to phoodoo's ignorant claim, scientists know very well what emergence is. There are well understood cases.
But surely still, as a shorthand, 'interaction'? Interactions between atoms and molecules in pure form or solution change with energy distribution, number and the properties of the atoms in any surrounding medium. That there are discrete phase transitions doesn't go against the simplistic notion that collective properties arise from summed complex interactions.
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Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

AE Public Forum - Thu, 2014-01-23 13:55
Post by Amadan
Tard goes in, tard goes out.

You can't explain that.
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A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Sat, 2014-01-18 06:48
Post by GaryGaulin
Quote (Alan Fox @ Jan. 16 2014,14:05)Assuming the board has the right info - Happy Birthday to Gary!
Yes, it's correct. Thanks for the friendly words (and JohnW sort of). That helped cheer me up, from the depressing F-bombing, on top of all else.

I had a day to work on the hippocampal system. Around 5% of the time the critter will go around the moving invisible shock zone then wait for it to be safe. I then read some of the latest papers on how the hippocampal system might work which led to Hopfield Neural Network attractors and such:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....9OnjoZS

I'm now trying to outdo myself by wiring up a system with the Hopfield Neural Net in mind as how memory is stored (in biology as opposed to computer code that must be stored in electronic RAM) for quickly finding shortest path to food avoiding places in between at a certain current and future angular time (angle of room cue card relative to arena revolving over time around the rat's arena). I have a circuit on paper with a good chance to working, and will try it out. It's just a step up from what I already have that worked well enough to show I next need to try making each place cell in the network a separate memory system working in parallel with others, as opposed to one for each entire lobe. I'll then essentially be modeling (what by theory qualifies as) “cellular intelligence”.

If this works then I will have saved myself tons of time, trying to model a hippocampal system. So hopefully none mind my focusing on that, for now. I'll check back to see how things are going here, in case there is something else worth replying to, like your reply. I'm feeling older, but at a time like this your wishing me a happy birthday helped me to none the less be glad to made it to this stage of development, of my everything.
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MHC/HLA immune genome mutation rates question

AE Public Forum - Sat, 2014-01-18 03:56
Post by qetzal
Keep in mind that each individual can have a mutation. So if you had 100,000 children born in each new generation, you'd expect one new mutation per 3000 bp per generation in the population overall.

I'm sure the actual math is more complicated, but I don't know the details.
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Board Mechanics

AE Public Forum - Sat, 2014-01-18 00:47
Post by fnxtr
...AND... we're back. Thank yew!
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Board Mechanics

AE Public Forum - Fri, 2014-01-17 23:02
Post by Wesley R. Elsberry
I'll see about contacting Reed. PT is on his server.
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Board Mechanics

AE Public Forum - Fri, 2014-01-17 22:19
Post by rossum
http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/....tme....tme.com has PT down for everyone at 22:00 GMT
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Board Mechanics

AE Public Forum - Fri, 2014-01-17 21:58
Post by fnxtr
Couldn't reach PT at 1:50PST today.
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Thread for Phoodoo

AE Public Forum - Fri, 2014-01-17 18:12
Post by Friar Broccoli
Quote (Alan Fox @ Jan. 17 2014,10:47)Hi Friar Broccoli

I'm not sure if there is a probationary period. Couple of options. Find an existing thread with a similar topic heading and post in that.

Post it in this thread and I or one of the regulars can set up a thread for you. The thread with the most recent comment comes to the top of the topic list so it should be visible for a while.

Thanks.  As you can see, things seem to be working ok now.
-
-
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MHC/HLA immune genome mutation rates question

AE Public Forum - Fri, 2014-01-17 18:06
Post by Friar Broccoli
Hi;

I am trying to write up a shorter and clearer (so creationists can read it) version of Lenny Flank's argument about mutation rates as implied by the number of alleles in the MHC complex.  I also want this rewrite because (among other things) the creationist response focuses on his use "beneficial" mutations. (See: http://creation.com/bible-t....versity )


In my first draft I began:

_start_
MHC regions are usually less than 2000 bp long in a genome that is 3,000,000,000 bp long.


Observationally we know there are a 100 mutations per generation over the entire genome.

Therefore in a region that is:

- 300,000,000 bp long we would expect one mutation per generation.
- 3,000,000 bp long we would expect one mutation ever 100 generations.
- 3,000 bp long we would expect one mutation ever 100,000 generations.

Since we sometimes see more than 1000 mutations (alleles) in the 2,000 bp long MHC immune complexes this suggests these areas have been mutating for 100,000,000 generations.
_stop_

Here I said to myself 100,000,000 generations seems like way too many, unless (for example the mouse MHC complex looks fairly similar - does it?).  If it does not, what is a more reasonable estimate of the number of generations to achieve the diversity we see in the human MHC complexes?

Also is the observed generation to generation rate of mutations in the MHC complexes much different from that observed in the rest of the human genome?
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Thread for Phoodoo

AE Public Forum - Fri, 2014-01-17 16:47
Post by Alan Fox
Hi Friar Broccoli

I'm not sure if there is a probationary period. Couple of options. Find an existing thread with a similar topic heading and post in that.

Post it in this thread and I or one of the regulars can set up a thread for you. The thread with the most recent comment comes to the top of the topic list so it should be visible for a while.
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Thread for Phoodoo

AE Public Forum - Fri, 2014-01-17 16:23
Post by Friar Broccoli
I just registered hoping to be able to ask a question here.  But when I try "new topic" in:

Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes

(the only place that seems active) I get the message:
"Sorry, you do not have permission to start a topic in this forum. You are currently logged in as Friar Broccoli"

What do I need to do?

it's a slightly technical question about counting generations based on mutation rates.
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A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Thu, 2014-01-16 21:23
Post by JohnW
Quote (Alan Fox @ Jan. 16 2014,12:05)Assuming the board has the right info - Happy Birthday to Gary!
Happy birthday*, Gary!




* assuming the planet you live on has a 365.24-day year...
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A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Fri, 2014-01-10 12:33
Post by didymos
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Jan. 09 2014,20:08)I thought I should give a progress report on the software.
Why? No one here cares about your Tardagotchi.
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A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin

AE Public Forum - Fri, 2014-01-10 12:20
Post by Woodbine
Princess Amygdala.
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