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stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 08 2008,14:31   

Swbarnes2 said, in response to LCD,

Quote
Quote (lcd @ Aug. 08 2008,07:02)
Howdy all,
I am not looking for evidence to bolster my faith in God or His Word in our world.


You need to stop digging.

It was silly enough when you wrote on the Telic Thoughts thread:

“What I'm looking for is science evidence that will back up my faith.”

You got correctly criticized for it, and you could have done the straightforward thing, and said “Yes, you are right, that was silly of me to say “ or “Yes, you are right, I intend to do the right thing the harder thing, and look for evidence that contradicts my preconceived ideas.”

But instead you chose to say that you weren’t in fact doing the thing that just the previously day you were recorded saying you were intent on doing.

It’s just transparent.

   
Quote
4:  I am looking for Positive Evidence FOR not Negative Evidence against something.


Umm, didn’t you just say that you weren’t doing that?  

Historically, that method works very badly.  You can find evidence in favor of a million wrong things, but only right things fail to be disproved.  You will never disprove a single wrong thing you believe that way.  And you are human, so you surely believe a lot of wrong things.  In fact, I find it hard to understand how a certain fruit-eating incident that you probably believe was crucial to the formation of human nature doesn’t necessarily lead you to that same conclusion.

   
Quote
I am very aware that evidence one thinks disproves one thing does not bolster their own ideas.  Only evidence for one's position bolsters your idea.


No.  One’s idea is also bolstered when everyone agrees that no evidence disproves it.  You can find evidence supporting a million wrong things.  

   
Quote
It is hard to listen to someone when they are being rude.


Well, it is horribly rude for a person to think that they know a subject better than the entire community of experts, when in fact that person knows less than a high schooler.  And it is horribly rude when people accuse thousands of strangers of being deluded, or ignorant, or liars, when they themselves don’t know what they are talking about.

So yes, it can be hard to deal with rude people.

   
Quote
All I kept from it was, "College, studies, false, made stuff up".


Right.  We get it.  And since you are only ever looking for evidence that supports that belief, you will believe it forever.

   
Quote
Sad thing is I thought I was watching carefully and knew what was going on.  Sadly that was not correct.


No, what’s sad is that even after being shown that your “looking only for confirming evidence” strategy yields wrong results, you still want to stick to it.

 
Quote
So when dealing with people outside of academia, realize that we don't know everything and it seems we remember what we want to or already suspect.


You are responsible for your own beliefs.  If you believe stupid and wrong things, when you are a Google away from learning the truth, that’s your fault.  Not anyone else’s.

   
Quote
This is in direct response to my being quizzed on naming a scientist who was doing something wrong.


Well, yes.  That’s how people who care about being right function.  They draw conclusions from facts, so when you presented a conclusion that they didn’t already hold, they wanted to know the facts underlying it.

This is in stark opposition to people who draw conclusions for other reasons, say, because they like the conclusions, or because their pastor and parents told them the conclusion was sound.  Such people sometimes make a show of looking for facts that support their conclusion (but not facts which would disprove it), but the outcome is the same.  A far higher chance of being wrong, and of being so wrong, that it draws amusement and scorn.

If you are going to operate that way, that outcome is pretty much a certainty.

   
Quote
I apologize for saying it even though I didn't mean it the way many of you might have thought I said it.  


Nice try.  It’s not that everyone but you is responsible for how they read your posts, it’s that you are responsible for what you post.

Personally, I predict that your openness is going to dry up real fast.  I imagine that you hold a stew of factually ridiculous notions about science, and that you will not stand up to being told over and over again that your cherished beliefs aren’t supported by the facts.  You will blame everyone else for holding you to standards like ‘having evidence to support your claims’.  You will lash out with a final “Jesus loves me, so there!”, and huff off to more favorable shores, where you will tell sympathetic believers how unbelievably hostile people acted towards you when you made ridiculous claims without evidence.

I of course, am actively seeking the facts which will prove my belief false.  Do you perhaps now see the virtue in this stance?

   
rhmc



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Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 08 2008,18:07   

jeebus.

  
J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 08 2008,19:18   

Oaky, I have to say it.  Looks like Louis was right to call trollage.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 09 2008,03:36   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 09 2008,01:18)
Oaky, I have to say it.  Looks like Louis was right to call trollage.

I'm going with "not yet wrong"! ;-)

I'd *LIKE* to be wrong, but given the classic signs exhibited over several threads, I might well not be.

I reckon that LCD should go out of his way to prove me wrong. That is if he sincerely is looking for a productive discussion.

Louis

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Bye.

  
jeffox



Posts: 667
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 09 2008,14:44   

No offense, anybody, but it seems like it's a pretty rare troll that doesn't name-call or exhibit unwarranted anger.  

Maybe Ed didn't come in here with the most open of minds, but I think troll is rather too harsh of a label.  

My 2c.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 09 2008,14:45   

Quote (jeffox @ Aug. 09 2008,20:44)
No offense, anybody, but it seems like it's a pretty rare troll that doesn't name-call or exhibit unwarranted anger.  

Maybe Ed didn't come in here with the most open of minds, but I think troll is rather too harsh of a label.  

My 2c.

That is what is commonly known as an exceptionally good point.

Louis

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Bye.

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,07:31   

What to say.


As to, "Looking for science evidence to back up my faith", what is wrong with that?  Many people believe in many things.  Who among you wouldn't like that faith you placed in someone confirmed?  No matter if they are a loved one, your boss, even faith that the money you loaned your brother in law so he can start a car repair place, while you have faith they are doing right by and for you, seeing it is always welcomed.

It is true that I may not have had the most opened mind when coming to this and other boards.  But I am asking questions of BOTH SIDES and not taking, "Because I said so", for an answer.

To his point of
Quote
Quote
4:  I am looking for Positive Evidence FOR not Negative Evidence against something.
Umm, didn’t you just say that you weren’t doing that?
I'm not doing that.  I am looking for evidence that confirms my faith and in the way I believe things are.  If I did what you are accusing me of, I would not have said that I've found more science coming from the non-creationist side of the argument, something I hope you'll see I had a very hard time actually saying.

As for being rude meaning going someplace and thinking one knows more that someone else, does that apply to people who go to the UD or TT board as well?  For many who are getting into the debate as an active participant, going with one side or the other woiuld make one seem to be rude.

Now to deal with this part:
Quote
You are responsible for your own beliefs.  If you believe stupid and wrong things, when you are a Google away from learning the truth, that’s your fault.  Not anyone else’s.
Yes, one can Google and get many sites, but which one to believe?

Google "Evolution Creation Debate" and here's a partial list:

TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy
Explores creation/evolution/intelligent design, gives the evidence for ... Talk.origins is a Usenet newsgroup devoted to the discussion and debate of ...
www.talkorigins.org/ - 9k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Creation-evolution controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The creation-evolution controversy (also termed the creation vs. evolution debate or the origins debate) is a recurring political dispute about the origins ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation-evolution_controversy - 276k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Creation vs Evolution Debates
Creation / Evolution Debate at Westminster Report by the antiCreation IBSS. ... Gish - Saladin Debate II 1988 Evolution vs Creationism; Gish - Massimo ...
www.nwcreation.net/debates.html - 30k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
An Introduction to the Evolution versus Creation Debate
The evolution / creation debate hinges largely on a disagreement regarding the nature of science and scientific theories. Before getting into that, however, ...
www.freethoughtdebater.com/evolutioncreation.htm - 37k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Evolution Vs Creation
Evolution Vs Creation - The Great Debate over the Model of Origins: the ... The Evolution vs. Creation debate is often referred to as the "Great Debate. ...
www.allaboutcreation.org/Evolution-Vs-Creation.htm - 33k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
The Sopranos weigh in on the evolution-creation debate. - The ...
Apr 5, 2006 ... Evidently, producers, artists, and writers in the entertainment industry are very much aware of the whole evolution-creation-ID debate that ...
www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/04/the-sopranos-we.html - 64k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
EvC Forum: Creation versus Evolution
The Creation/Evolution Debate. Dedicated to helping develop a better understanding of both sides of the issue, the EvC Forum plays host to the ongoing ...
www.evcforum.net/ - 23k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
The Evolution, Creationism, and Intelligent Design Controversy
of the Anti-Evolution Law" · "Justices Brennan and Scalia Debate "Creation-Science" in Edwards v Aguillard" Biographies of Key Figures in the Controversy ...
www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/evolution.htm - 32k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this


So which one does one read and believe?  One would think that would depend on who is doing the lookup.

Even to Google something else, say "Guns in America", you get, another partial list:

CBSNews.com
GUNS IN AMERICA, ---------------------, Firearms Timeline, Laws & Deaths By State, Who's At Risk? ... Gun Laws And Fatalities. INFOGRAPHIC: Who's At Risk? ...
www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/guns_in_america/html/framesource.html - 3k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
GunsAmerica - Connecting Gun Buyers to Gun Sellers Since 1997 ...
GunsAmerica | Where America Buys And Sells Guns .... This fine gun has a 5" handfit match barrel w/ bushing, a magwell ...(read more) ...
www.gunsamerica.com/ - 191k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Brady Campaign - Kids & Guns in America
KIDS AND GUNS IN AMERICA. It shouldn't take a school shooting or an inner-city neighborhood shooting to make us realize that American children are more at ...
www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=kids - 20k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
GUNS IN AMERICA:Americans want firearms and federal restrictions
One other national figure, however, may summarize America's mixed emotions toward guns best of all. Even though a large majority of the people think gun ...
www.chron.com/content/chronicle/nation/guns/part1/gunside2.html - 18k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
GUNS IN AMERICA, THE FACTS
The net value of private firearm ownership - the dollar savings from defensive gun use, minus the costs of "gun-violence" - has been estimated at up to ...
www.jrwhipple.com/guns/firearm_facts.html - 15k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this


Again which one is to be believed?

Thanks for your input.  I hope you can now see the difficulty there is trying to get a straight answer.

Hopefully you'll also be a little more nice and withhold fire a little longer.


Ed

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,07:41   

lcd, the answer is right in your hands, you're just not liking the answer.

Look, you have a question about science.

Scientists produce science.

Creationists do not.

"Which one to believe?"

It's not that hard.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,07:55   

http://www.icr.org/discover/

Quote
Our Mission
ICR equips believers with evidence of the Bible's accuracy and authority through scientific research, educational programs, and media presentations, all conducted within a thoroughly biblical framework.

Click below to discover more about ICR and its work.


Conclusion -> observation -> special pleading to reconcile with reality

is NOT science.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JohnW



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Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,12:13   

Quote (lcd @ Aug. 11 2008,05:31)
As to, "Looking for science evidence to back up my faith", what is wrong with that?  Many people believe in many things.  Who among you wouldn't like that faith you placed in someone confirmed?  No matter if they are a loved one, your boss, even faith that the money you loaned your brother in law so he can start a car repair place, while you have faith they are doing right by and for you, seeing it is always welcomed.

What's wrong with that, lcd, is that it isn't science.  The emotional need to have your gut feelings confirmed is understandable, and can serve you well for a lot of day-to-day decisions, but a scietific claim stands or falls on the strength of the evidence supporting it, not on the strength of its supporters' convictions.  The structure of science (hypothesis testing, peer review, making raw data available, etc.) is designed to separate faith from evidence - it's not perfect, but that's what we're shooting for.

If we pick and choose the bits of evidence which support our beliefs, while ignoring everything which contradicts them, we can use science to justify anything at all.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Mr_Christopher



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,12:13   

If you're looking to science to prop up your religious beliefs you're in for a sad surprise.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Stephen Elliott



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,12:25   

Quote (lcd @ Aug. 11 2008,07:31)
What to say.


As to, "Looking for science evidence to back up my faith", what is wrong with that?  Many people believe in many things.  Who among you wouldn't like that faith you placed in someone confirmed?  No matter if they are a loved one, your boss, even faith that the money you loaned your brother in law so he can start a car repair place, while you have faith they are doing right by and for you, seeing it is always welcomed.

It is true that I may not have had the most opened mind when coming to this and other boards.  But I am asking questions of BOTH SIDES and not taking, "Because I said so", for an answer.

...

Hopefully you'll also be a little more nice and withhold fire a little longer.


Ed

Hi lcd,

I am curious. What caused you to look at science to bolster a religious conviction, where the words "follow the evidence no matter where it leads" something to do with it?

  
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,12:37   

Quote
But I am asking questions of BOTH SIDES and not taking, "Because I said so", for an answer.


What evidence do you have that the Earth is only 6000 years old, other than someone telling you so?

What reasons do you have to reject the evidence that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, other than someone telling you so?

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,12:40   

Going away for a while.

You can see my latest post at TT under the deletion thread of "Open letter to Dr. Dembski" here:

http://telicthoughts.com/true-and-false-messiahs/#comments

This has been an eye opening experience.


Thank You,


Ed

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,12:44   

Quote (lcd @ Aug. 11 2008,13:40)
Going away for a while.

You can see my latest post at TT under the deletion thread of "Open letter to Dr. Dembski" here:

http://telicthoughts.com/true-and-false-messiahs/#comments

This has been an eye opening experience.


Thank You,


Ed

lcd,

The light is on now.  Crawling back under the bed isn't going to make it go away.

I'd suggest you hang out a while and see how wonderful it is out here in the world.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
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Chayanov



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,12:47   

It's not exactly flouncing out, but the effect is the same.

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
JohnW



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Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,12:56   

Quote (Chayanov @ Aug. 11 2008,10:47)
It's not exactly flouncing out, but the effect is the same.

Give him the benefit of the doubt.  Some people think there are other things to do besides arguing with strangers on the intertubes.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
C.J.O'Brien



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,13:06   

Quote
Some people think there are other things to do besides arguing with strangers on the intertubes.


Heretics! Somebody get the Ebola.

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The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,13:08   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 11 2008,07:41)
lcd, the answer is right in your hands, you're just not liking the answer.

Look, you have a question about science.

Scientists produce science.

Creationists do not.

"Which one to believe?"

It's not that hard.

Would you watch a McCain TV ad to find out Obama's positions?  It depends on what you are looking for.  If it is validation you want about Obama, watch the McCain ad.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,13:09   

Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 11 2008,13:56)
Quote (Chayanov @ Aug. 11 2008,10:47)
It's not exactly flouncing out, but the effect is the same.

Give him the benefit of the doubt.  Some people think there are other things to do besides arguing with strangers on the intertubes.

More than that, having been somewhat in this position myself, I can attest that it can be overwhelming to have your illusions shattered at your feet.

(Edited for grammar)

Edited by Lou FCD on Aug. 11 2008,14:10

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Mr_Christopher



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,14:44   

LCD, if you really want to weigh who's lying and who's not, who's legit and who's not, what is supported by evidence and what's not, try reading all the Kitzmiller testimony and then read Jones' ruling.

All the IDers and non-IDers testified under oath and were given ample opportunity to present their case and evidence.

Read for yourself and then decide.  The Kitzmiller wiki articleis not so good but it has links to all the trial documents, testimony and ruling.

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,14:53   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 11 2008,12:44)
 
Quote (lcd @ Aug. 11 2008,13:40)
Going away for a while.

You can see my latest post at TT under the deletion thread of "Open letter to Dr. Dembski" here:

http://telicthoughts.com/true-and-false-messiahs/#comments

This has been an eye opening experience.


Thank You,


Ed

lcd,

The light is on now.  Crawling back under the bed isn't going to make it go away.

I'd suggest you hang out a while and see how wonderful it is out here in the world.

Been there myself,

So why try to rush him/her? It has taken me years to do that journey. Do you really expect someone to do it in a few posts?

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,15:20   

LCD, while you're trying to determine who's lying and who's not, read all about the lying publishers of the Intelligent Design textbook, "Of Pandas and People"  here

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,15:28   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Aug. 11 2008,15:20)
LCD, while you're trying to determine who's lying and who's not, read all about the lying publishers of the Intelligent Design textbook, "Of Pandas and People"  here

Slow down a bit. Please.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,15:42   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Aug. 11 2008,14:53)
   
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 11 2008,12:44)

lcd,

The light is on now.  Crawling back under the bed isn't going to make it go away.

I'd suggest you hang out a while and see how wonderful it is out here in the world.

Been there myself,

So why try to rush him/her? It has taken me years to do that journey. Do you really expect someone to do it in a few posts?

Sure, as was demonstrated in one of the classic moments from the American TV series "All in the Family." The set up is that Edith is starting to go through menopause.  The moment is from 3:30 to 3:50 of this clip.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
SoonerintheBluegrass



Posts: 39
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,15:44   

Yeah, the thing that set me down the path away from faith was a nagging ontological question, which occurred to me at a fairly early age.  "What happens/happened to all the souls who lived before Jesus or who never got the Divine Memo even after Jesus had come and gone?"*

Then came studying history (and the occasional epiphany fueled by random things like XTC's brilliant "Dear God"), then some heavy rationalization and modifying of my faith.  I remained convinced that it just had to be true on some level.  Maybe the true message just got distorted by time, or whatever.   But then, how does an omniscient and omnipotent entity let that happen, etc?

I've only somewhat recently been looking into and reading about science out of sheer curiosity, and as a non-scientist type, I can say nothing except that it's some overwhelming (and awe-inspiring) stuff.  As I grow older, one thing seems to be a constant-- discovering and re-discovering just how much I don't know.

*Unsurprisingly, I never got anything resembling a straight answer.

--------------
"And heaven will smell like the airport
But I may not get there to prove it
So let's not waste our time thinking how that ain't fair."

Neko Case

  
Mr_Christopher



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,17:34   

Quote (SoonerintheBluegrass @ Aug. 11 2008,15:44)
Yeah, the thing that set me down the path away from faith was a nagging ontological question, which occurred to me at a fairly early age.  "What happens/happened to all the souls who lived before Jesus or who never got the Divine Memo even after Jesus had come and gone?"*

Then came studying history (and the occasional epiphany fueled by random things like XTC's brilliant "Dear God"), then some heavy rationalization and modifying of my faith.  I remained convinced that it just had to be true on some level.  Maybe the true message just got distorted by time, or whatever.   But then, how does an omniscient and omnipotent entity let that happen, etc?

I've only somewhat recently been looking into and reading about science out of sheer curiosity, and as a non-scientist type, I can say nothing except that it's some overwhelming (and awe-inspiring) stuff.  As I grow older, one thing seems to be a constant-- discovering and re-discovering just how much I don't know.

*Unsurprisingly, I never got anything resembling a straight answer.

I remember those days...I truly believed there was a "truth" out there and I was determined to discover it.  I also believed there were "wise men" out there who had real answers.

Good god it was a relief when I realized how wrong I was, no one has any special insight, certainly nothing superior to common sense, and that there were more rewarding things to do in life than sit around contemplating what a deaf/mute deity wanted me to do each day.

Ahh back when I was young and naive.  




Now I'm old and naive :-)

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,18:18   

Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 11 2008,12:56)
Quote (Chayanov @ Aug. 11 2008,10:47)
It's not exactly flouncing out, but the effect is the same.

Give him the benefit of the doubt.  Some people think there are other things to do besides arguing with strangers on the intertubes.

Huh?! You must be kidding?

  
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