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stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,08:42   

Quote

Discovery Institute Has Put Over $4 Million Towards Scientific and Academic Research into Evolution and Intelligent Design in the Past Decade

Discovery Institute launched the Center for Science and Culture in 1996, recognizing the need for an institutional home for the emerging scientific theory of intelligent design. Even though the nascent theory of intelligent design was already being discussed by individual scientists around the world, it was not until the Center for Science and Culture was established that scientists were given the resources to research what has become the most exciting scientific story since the Big Bang.

The Center provides funding and support for scientists and scholars whose research challenges various aspects of neo-Darwinian theory and develops the scientific theory known as intelligent design. Saturday, October 21st, the Institute will host a ten year anniversary dinner to honor the achievements of the Center for Science & Culture, along with its Fellows and staff.

“In 1996, it was almost impossible to receive funding to do scientific research related to intelligent design,” says Bruce Chapman, President of Discovery Institute. “And, in addition to a lack of funding and resources, it was clear that scientists working on intelligent design were facing more and more persecution and harassment, making it difficult for them to conduct research.”

“So we started the Center, and now, just ten years later, we’ve put over $4 million directly into scientific and scholarly research on intelligent design and evolution.”

In the last ten years the CSC has:

   * Supported research and writing by more than 50 scientists and scholars in the sciences, social sciences and humanities.
   * Supported scientists and philosophers of science working on specific journal articles, monographs, and books in such areas as biology, biochemistry, cosmology, physics, probability theory, philosophy of mind, and philosophy of science.
   * Financially supported a number of scientific and academic conferences, including the International Symposium on the Origins of Animal Body Plans in Chengjiang, China, the Nature of Nature conference at Baylor University, and and intelligent design conference at Yale University.

The dinner is open to the public, and the cost to attend is $100 per person. Anyone interested in attending can register online at the Discovery Institute website at www.discovery.org. For more information, contact event coordinator Annelise Davis at (206) 292-0401 x153.

Posted by Robert Crowther on October 5, 2006 10:26 AM | Permalink
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/discovery_institute_has_put_ov.html


and btw, Thoughts From Kansas's response, and some additional info about more ways you can throw Benjamins at these frauds:

Quote
Like fish in a barrel

Category: Creationism • Culture Wars
Posted on: October 5, 2006 2:11 PM, by Josh Rosenau

I doubt that the research that produced Nobel prizes in Chemistry and Medicine/Physiology cost $4 million combined. I don't really know for sure, but some of the most fundamental discoveries cost quite little to make.
I point this out only because the DI's "Mr. Suave" aka Rob Crowther, is bragging that the "Discovery Institute Has Put Over $4 Million Towards Scientific and Academic Research into Evolution and Intelligent Design in the Past Decade":
Quote
“In 1996, it was almost impossible to receive funding to do scientific research related to intelligent design,” says Bruce Chapman, President of Discovery Institute.…

“So we started the Center, and now, just ten years later, we’ve put over $4 million directly into scientific and scholarly research on intelligent design and evolution.”
And what did that $4 million buy them? No original research. They still lack a theory of ID, so whether or not you have funding, it remains impossible to actually do research on ID.

Yes, that money has bought them conferences, and has paid for books to be published. But if the NSF spent $4 million on a research program that had as little to show for it as the DI can show for their money, Congress would be holding serious hearings into that mismanagement of funds.

Odd that the DI would be bragging about this.

Incidentally, their recent PR blitz on this point, especially tacked onto an ad for a $100 a plate dinner, suggests that the DI's failures in court and lab are hurting their bottom line. Tack on the recently created "Discovery Society" another effort to extract cash from gullible IDolators, and it's hard to come to any other conclusion.

   
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,08:57   

Reckon it's a good thing these guys didn't sell stock shares in their, uh, business, huh? :p

Henry

  
jeannot



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:04   

Maybe Chapman is not aware of how research works, but it's not the funds that indicate good science, it's the results.

  
carlsonjok



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:13   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 10 2006,13:42)
 
Quote

Discovery Institute Has Put Over $4 Million Towards Scientific and Academic Research into Evolution and Intelligent Design in the Past Decade

I am confused. I thought ID research was crippled because they couldn't get funds.  Where could I have gotten that idea from?

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Occam's Aftershave



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:31   

I think we should take up a collection to send JanieBelle and Corporal Kate to the DI /CSC dinner.  What a hoot that would be!  I'm good for $20.

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"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:32   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 10 2006,14:13)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 10 2006,13:42)
   
Quote

Discovery Institute Has Put Over $4 Million Towards Scientific and Academic Research into Evolution and Intelligent Design in the Past Decade

I am confused. I thought ID research was crippled because they couldn't get funds.  Where could I have gotten that idea from?

ID is funded just like real science, and at the same time ID can't get funding. ID produces lots of research but at the same time it's unfair to expect them to produce research. ID researchers are persecuted and harassed, and at the same time they have Darwinism 'on the run'. Darwinists are a mafia of atheist materialists who ruthlessly suppress dissent throughout science, and Darwinism is also 'practically dead'. ID produces all kinds of publications, and at the same time can't get their research published because of persecution by Darwinists. ID has nothing to do with religion, but at the same time it is the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory. IDists believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and that it is 4.5 billion years old. IDists believe that evolution happened, that it never happened, and that it once happened but no longer does.

Oh yes, and we've always been at war with Eurasia.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Mr_Christopher



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:39   

This is a laff riot, I mean a total knee slapper.

Holy crikey those guys are mentally ill or something and their cultists lap it up.  I bet their little "celebrate success" event is a sell out.

I suppose spending 4 million bucks promoting ID is pretty much all the evidence they need to prove ID really is science.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:40   

http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/hunch/hunch.html

   
Mr_Christopher



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:47   

I wonder if at their little celebration whether they will be bragging about all the goals they have reached that they outlined years ago in their Wedge Strategy.

That would be cool.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:48   

Re "ID is...but..."

One more: they believe in an all-powerful designer/God/being who is unable to get natural processes to produce the wanted results. (I suspect that one's kind of at the root of things.)

Henry

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,10:07   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 10 2006,14:40)
http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/hunch/hunch.html

A good one from there:

 
Quote
If a living system looks well designed, it's evidence for ID. If it looks poorly designed, that's just because we have no way of knowing what constitutes good and bad design.


If something is well designed, God, erm, I mean the Disembodied Designer obviously did that. I mean, it's just obvious.

But it's completely invalid to claim that something was poorly designed, since that's claiming to be able to know what God's the DD's motives are. That's theology. We don't do that.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,10:19   

Re "If something is well designed, God, erm, I mean the Disembodied Designer obviously did that. I mean, it's just obvious."

Does that also apply to well designed parasites? ;)

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,12:06   

Quote
I think we should take up a collection to send JanieBelle and Corporal Kate to the DI /CSC dinner.  What a hoot that would be!  I'm good for $20.


Janie and Kate would go "all breezy" under their dresses (we guys know this as going commando) and flashing Bill Dembski.

Jonathan Wells would come on to Janie, and Kate would probably whack 'em upside his head.  There might wind up being a naked jello cat fight somewhere along the line.  MorphoDyke Denyse would definitely be targeted with a large raw fish from the kitchen.

DaveScot would wind up being tied to a chair where he'd be videotaped and forced to tell his mama he was a homo.

Then they'd have to kick the girls out. Janie would leave peacefully but it'd take 3-4 security personnel to expel Kate.  She doesn't really take crap from anybody.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,14:28   

Quote
Denyse would definitely be targeted with a large raw fish from the kitchen.


??

I thought Densye WAS a large raw fish from the kitchen.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
mcc



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Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,16:42   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Oct. 10 2006,14:39)
This is a laff riot, I mean a total knee slapper.

Holy crikey those guys are mentally ill or something and their cultists lap it up.  I bet their little "celebrate success" event is a sell out.

I suppose spending 4 million bucks promoting ID is pretty much all the evidence they need to prove ID really is science.

Well, you know, it's just like Ghandi says:

First your factual claims are soundly refuted and rejected,

Then you are unable to get traction or attention except among religious extremists,

Then a court rules you are barred from public schools,

Then your allies in the media and politics desert you,

Then you win.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,18:12   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Oct. 10 2006,19:28)
Quote
Denyse would definitely be targeted with a large raw fish from the kitchen.


??

I thought Densye WAS a large raw fish from the kitchen.

Ouch.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Mr_Christopher



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2006,06:32   

I notice this subject is not getting any air time over on Dembski's cult of conformity network.  

One would think that celebrating all the ID scientific accomplishments brought to you by the Discovery Institute would be something they would rejoice in?

Why isn't Dave Tard bragging about it and where is Sal the Snake when you most expect him?  The silence about this event at UD is eerie...

Color me perplexed!

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,09:08   

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A CONFESSION

You know how, when put on the spot, the DI tells school boards and legislators that, no, they aren't arguing to have "intelligent design" arguments inserted into the schools? The DI's "Academic Freedom Day" website shows that they really, really haven't been telling the truth.

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Jan. 10 2009,09:10

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Schroedinger's Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,10:24   

Well, the next challenge will probably be to find out what they will call it next.

Let's get started:

-Creationism

--Creation Science

---Intelligent Design

----mmmhhh...Not so Intelligent but more kinda like Apologetic Design, but wait, no, that's not what we said...er...oh...YOU MEANIES!!!

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
blipey



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,10:46   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Oct. 10 2006,09:31)
I think we should take up a collection to send JanieBelle and Corporal Kate to the DI /CSC dinner.  What a hoot that would be!  I'm good for $20.

Oh, I want to go too!  I'll even dress up.

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Quidam



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,12:28   

Why does the 'Academic Freedom Day' logo show people  shooting rubber chickens from behind an American flag while Darwin looks on with dismay, armed only with a large, phallic pencil?


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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,13:15   

Quote (Quidam @ Jan. 10 2009,12:28)
Why does the 'Academic Freedom Day' logo show people  shooting rubber chickens from behind an American flag while Darwin looks on with dismay, armed only with a large, phallic pencil?

And why are there 160 stars on the American Flag?

Is the DI counting our newest states... like Iraq?  Gaza?

I for one would welcome the fair, balanced and open dialogue between, Dembski, Lusin and Muqtadr al Sadr...
as they discuss Allah The Designer.

Now THAT my friends would be a movie worth watching :)

added in edit:  OOOPS!  I have to offer an apology!

It seems Muqtadr LOVES this site, (I think he has a crush on Kristine) and sent me a PM - He says he wants NOTHING to do wit the DI - He strongly stressed that there are some things that even half-crazed mullahs have to draw the line at - and the DI is the line in the sand for the Muq Man.

However, he did say his cousin, Muqtardr , al Sadr is always going on and on about how he sees Allah in camel dung droppings. Even written a couple books, called No Free Camels, and On The Edge Of a Camel.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Doc Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,20:26   

I think the DI is just trying to spoil the party.

You know, Luskin in the punchbowl.

  
Advocatus Diaboli



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2009,16:32   

This looks interesting: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009....me.html

Quote
The Louisiana Board of Elementary and Secondary Education (BESE) voted unanimously to adopt rules today implementing the Louisiana Science Education Act (LSEA), the landmark academic freedom bill passed last summer.

The rules approved by the BESE effectuate the academic freedom bill’s purpose to allow teachers to use supplementary materials to teach controversial scientific theories without threat of recrimination.

A subcommittee of the Board removed a provision prohibiting intelligent design before passing the rules unanimously. The legally redundant provision would have gone beyond the intent of the legislation and was dropped after the subcommittee heard testimony from supporters and opponents of the language.

In adopting these rules, the BESE reiterated its support for academic freedom for teachers to teach controversial scientific theories.

According to Discovery Institute education policy analyst Casey Luskin, “This is another victory for Louisiana students and teachers to have a climate of academic freedom to learn about scientific controversies over evolution and other topics in the curriculum.”


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I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

"I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot

"Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova

"UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

   
silverspoon



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Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2009,17:07   

Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Jan. 15 2009,16:32)
This looks interesting: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009....me.html

 
Quote
The Louisiana Board of Elementary and Secondary Education (BESE) voted unanimously to adopt rules today implementing the Louisiana Science Education Act (LSEA), the landmark academic freedom bill passed last summer.

The rules approved by the BESE effectuate the academic freedom bill’s purpose to allow teachers to use supplementary materials to teach controversial scientific theories without threat of recrimination.

A subcommittee of the Board removed a provision prohibiting intelligent design before passing the rules unanimously. The legally redundant provision would have gone beyond the intent of the legislation and was dropped after the subcommittee heard testimony from supporters and opponents of the language.

In adopting these rules, the BESE reiterated its support for academic freedom for teachers to teach controversial scientific theories.

According to Discovery Institute education policy analyst Casey Luskin, “This is another victory for Louisiana students and teachers to have a climate of academic freedom to learn about scientific controversies over evolution and other topics in the curriculum.”

So the state board used this as an occasion to remove a restriction that the state board rules previously held against teaching intelligent design.

Am I reading this right?

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Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2009,17:26   

Quote (silverspoon @ Jan. 15 2009,15:07)
So the state board used this as an occasion to remove a restriction that the state board rules previously held against teaching intelligent design.

Am I reading this right?

That is how it reads to me.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Nils Ruhr



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2009,14:39   

Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,00:08   

Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,12:39)
Behe has Licked Miller's ass and fucked Luskin.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behe_takes_ass_luskin

Fixed it for you.

Edited by Dr.GH on Jan. 16 2009,22:09

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
MIchael Roberts



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,02:11   

Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,14:39)
Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

Nils

If you knew just a little science you would have realised that Behe was sorted out by Miller 10 years ago. To claim this is nonsense .

I read Behe in 1996 and soon realised it was bs especially over bloodclotting . It was nice to read Miller later!!

Gary's comment is apt.

  
Advocatus Diaboli



Posts: 198
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,03:15   

Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,14:39)
Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

Short take on Behe's second response: "Scientists' results are suggestive, tentative. But even if true, it would still require design. I win!"

--------------
I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

"I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot

"Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova

"UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

   
Quack



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Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,03:37   

Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,14:39)
Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

Since I don't know quite how to properly "fix it for you", I just have to point out that in my opinion, it should rather have read "Behe will never recognize..."

IANAS, but my initial reaction to DBB when I first read it in 1996 was a strong sense that here way a guy that I was not prepared to believe.

History has proven me right; unless I am too dogmatic, science has shown why Irreducible Complexity and Complex Specified Information are little more than fancy terms designed to impress the gullible.

Behe struck me as someone more like being on a mission than a scientist. And we know that he is; he has made it clear that he thinks the designer is God. Wishful thinking is probably not the best approach for doing science. But then we know that Behe is not doing proper science as we know it, his definition of science includes things like astrology.

This passage from p233 of DBB forever etched in my mind stands out as a prime example of the sort of kitch/camp Behe is capable of producing; making me very suspicions about his entire enterprise:

 
Quote
The result of these cumulative efforts to investigate the cell - to investigate life at the molecular level-is a loud, clear, piercing cry of "design!"  The result is so unambiguous and so significant that it must be ranked as one of the greatest achievements in the history of science. The discovery rivals those of Newton and Einstein, Lavoisier and Schrodinger, Pasteur, and Darwin. The observation of the intelligent design of life is as momentous as the observation that the earth goes around the sun or that disease is caused by bacteria or that radiation is emitted in quanta. The magnitude of the victory, gained at such great cost through sustained effort over the course of decades, would be expected to send champagne corks flying in labs around the world. This triumph of science should evoke cries of "Eureka!" from ten thousand throats, should occasion much hand-slapping and high-fiving, and perhaps even be an excuse to take a day off.
But no bottles have been uncorked, no hands slapped. Instead, a curious, embarrassed silence surrounds the stark complexity of the cell. When the subject comes up in public, feet start to shuffle, and breathing gets a bit labored. In private people are a bit more relaxed; many explicitly admit the obvious but then stare at the ground, shake their heads, and let it go at that.
Why does the scientific community not greedily embrace its startling discovery? Why is the observation of design handled with intellectual gloves? The dilemma is that while one side of the elephant is labeled intelligent design, the other side might be labeled God.




Edited by Lou FCD on Jan. 18 2009,08:45

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
J-Dog



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Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,07:01   

Quote (Quack @ Jan. 17 2009,03:37)
Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,14:39)
Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

Since I don't know quite how to properly "fix it for you", I just have to point out that in my opinion, it should rather have read "Behe will never recognize..."

IANAS, but my initial reaction to DBB when I first read it in 1996 was a strong sense that here way a guy that I was not prepared to believe.

History has proven me right; unless I am too dogmatic, science has shown why Irreducible Complexity and Complex Specified Information are little more than fancy terms designed to impress the gullible.

Behe struck me as someone more like being on a mission than a scientist. And we know that he is; he has made it clear that he thinks the designer is God. Wishful thinking is probably not the best approach for doing science. But then we know that Behe is not doing proper science as we know it, his definition of science includes things like astrology.

This passage from p233 of DBB forever etched in my mind stands out as a prime example of the sort of kitch/camp Behe is capable of producing; making me very suspicions about his entire enterprise:

 
Quote
The result of these cumulative efforts to investigate the cell - to investigate life at the molecular level-is a loud, clear, piercing cry of "design!"  The result is so unambiguous and so significant that it must be ranked as one of the greatest achievements in the history of science. The discovery rivals those of Newton and Einstein, Lavoisier and Schrodinger, Pasteur, and Darwin. The observation of the intelligent design of life is as momentous as the observation that the earth goes around the sun or that disease is caused by bacteria or that radiation is emitted in quanta. The magnitude of the victory, gained at such great cost through sustained effort over the course of decades, would be expected to send champagne corks flying in labs around the world. This triumph of science should evoke cries of "Eureka!" from ten thousand throats, should occasion much hand-slapping and high-fiving, and perhaps even be an excuse to take a day off.
But no bottles have been uncorked, no hands slapped. Instead, a curious, embarrassed silence surrounds the stark complexity of the cell. When the subject comes up in public, feet start to shuffle, and breathing gets a bit labored. In private people are a bit more relaxed; many explicitly admit the obvious but then stare at the ground, shake their heads, and let it go at that.
Why does the scientific community not greedily embrace its startling discovery? Why is the observation of design handled with intellectual gloves? The dilemma is that while one side of the elephant is labeled intelligent design, the other side might be labeled God.

POTW for Quack!  

Your Behe quote puts Behe's whole schtick in the proper perspective, IMO.

Excellent.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,19:21   

Academic Free-For-All Day

Quote

Why stand on the shoulders of giants when we can peer from between their ankles?


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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
nuytsia



Posts: 131
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2009,04:17   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 17 2009,11:21)
Academic Free-For-All Day

 
Quote

Why stand on the shoulders of giants when we can peer from between their ankles?

That's lovely.
The t-shirt competition looks interesting too, but I can't help thinking that shirts with  "Academic Free-For-All Day"
on the front and "End the Tyranny of 1,000 Years of Learning!" on the back would be good.
Put on a shirt, find an "Academic freeDum" group, slip yourself in and see if anybody notices... or even compliments you on your alternative design.  :D

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2009,08:13   

Quote (nuytsia @ Jan. 18 2009,05:17)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 17 2009,11:21)
Academic Free-For-All Day

   
Quote

Why stand on the shoulders of giants when we can peer from between their ankles?

That's lovely.
The t-shirt competition looks interesting too, but I can't help thinking that shirts with  "Academic Free-For-All Day"
on the front and "End the Tyranny of 1,000 Years of Learning!" on the back would be good.
Put on a shirt, find an "Academic freeDum" group, slip yourself in and see if anybody notices... or even compliments you on your alternative design.  :D

I dunno. The T-shirt contests I most enjoy are rarely about the shirts.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
nuytsia



Posts: 131
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2009,23:08   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Jan. 18 2009,00:13)
I dunno. The T-shirt contests I most enjoy are rarely about the shirts.

Ahhhh so your more a fabrics man are you?

You materialists. You're all the same.
:p

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,18:44   

I was playing around with Google Maps today and decided to map "Discovery Institute". Whoa! Three locations in Seattle and one in DC. I thought they were in one tiny office that Ben Stein couldn't find with GPS. It's bi coastal anti-intellectual kudzu!

What if they start selling coffee and public policy from thousands of locations? A venti double Luskin, to go, please. Mega-churches are so big box retailer, what DI's secret strategy is heading for is a presence in every school cafeteria.

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,19:06   

I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,19:23   

Quote (nuytsia @ Jan. 19 2009,00:08)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Jan. 18 2009,00:13)
I dunno. The T-shirt contests I most enjoy are rarely about the shirts.

Ahhhh so your more a fabrics man are you?

You materialists. You're all the same.
:p

It's Big Bazooms theory. I can't help myself.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,13:26   

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 27 2009,17:06)
I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

And in what way will this be distinguishable from their customary product?  They'll never even notice.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,13:29   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 28 2009,13:26)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 27 2009,17:06)
I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

And in what way will this be distinguishable from their customary product?  They'll never even notice.

NAILED IT!

Do we have One-Liner Of The Week Award yet?

I'd submit your name, but as an Illinoisan, ny Governor insists that for this kind of honor, you owe me some *&6%$$ money...

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2009,15:29   

Quote
Discovery Institute in JPost: Darwin Led to Hitler
Opinion | Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:51:21 am PST

David Klinghoffer of the anti-evolution Discovery Institute has an opinion column in the Jerusalem Post, attacking Jewish groups like the ADL for protesting against Pope Benedict’s reinstatement of Holocaust-denying Bishop Richard Williamson. Klinghoffer calls it “whining:” The wages of whining.

But the real purpose of Klinghoffer’s column is to attempt to redirect Jewish anger toward the Discovery Institute’s main target: the theory of evolution.



http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article...._Hitler

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2009,16:58   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 28 2009,14:26)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 27 2009,17:06)
I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

And in what way will this be distinguishable from their customary product?  They'll never even notice.

Erm, uh, it's in Smell-O-Vision?

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2009,16:24   

Out of the mouths of IDiots, and especially our Favorite IDiot, Egnor the Egnorant!

It's the Money Quote!


Quote
Intelligent design is the opinion that design is empirically detectable in biology, and that it is the best scientific inference to explain many aspects of biology, especially the genetic code and the complex molecular machinery inside cells.


Look, up in the sky!  Is it a theory?  Is it a notion?  Is it a concept?  Is it pie?

No, it's an "opinion."

Finally, the truth from a Discovery Institute FELLOW his own self.

ID is an opinion.

Egnor:  Tell me the truth, now, does this opinion make my head look fat?

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2009,12:53   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Jan. 31 2009,14:24)
Egnor:  Tell me the truth, now, does this opinion make my head look fat?

No, it doesn't.  It makes your head look very, very slim.  Pin-like.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2009,18:43   

Quote (JohnW @ Feb. 02 2009,10:53)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Jan. 31 2009,14:24)
Egnor:  Tell me the truth, now, does this opinion make my head look fat?

No, it doesn't.  It makes your head look very, very slim.  Pin-like.

Now, now...   :D

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2009,19:02   

I knew that was coming and moved as far away from Ground Zero as possible.

Ixnay on teh inPay edHay.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2009,13:23   

HaHa!  I  just received a letter from the DI begging for money to fight the evil Darwinistas!

Included in the packet is:
1. Envelope to mail back money or give them my Credit Card!  Too bad it is not postage paid.  Possibly a very heavy Postage Due mail-back might help them empty their over-flowing coffers.

2.  "Note" from "The desk of David Berlinski, Paris France"
(hand signed btw!) Evidently we are to think that he is exiled and not allowed in the USA. Perhaps Jeannot or The New French Guy Schrodingers Dog could reason with him.
Too bad Marcel Marceau passed on the the BIG CSI in teh Sky -  He probably feels about mimes, the way DaveScot feels about clowns.

3.) An "article" from John G West from the National Review Online entitled The Gospel According to Darwin.  Warns the rubes that Darwin and evilutioniusts are out to kill Christian immortal souls.

4.) A legal sized letter from Teh DI from John West begging for money, with a tear-off on the bottom to I can send money.  Yeah, I'll get right on that asshat.

It is a travesty that they have 501© 3 tax status.

added in edit:  If anyone wants a copy of this crap, PM me and I will scan and send as a pdf email.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2009,22:28   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 05 2009,13:23)
HaHa!  I  just received a letter from the DI begging for money to fight the evil Darwinistas!

Are they giving you the opportunity to sponsor a DI Fellow for only $24 a month?
Will your sponsored Fellow send you research papers, works in progress reports, personalized pictures and letters relating their experiences at the DI?
Is your money going towards efforts to provide a safe environment within which your sponsored Fellow can pursue research?
Will your money help erase the stigma that comes with being a DI Fellow?

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2009,23:48   

Bravo paragwinn. Definitely a "Best Post Of The Last Several Minutes," or "Post That Is Better Than My Last Five." (OK, ten).

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,01:56   

Quote (paragwinn @ Feb. 05 2009,22:28)
Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 05 2009,13:23)
HaHa!  I  just received a letter from the DI begging for money to fight the evil Darwinistas!

Are they giving you the opportunity to sponsor a DI Fellow for only $24 a month?
Will your sponsored Fellow send you research papers, works in progress reports, personalized pictures and letters relating their experiences at the DI?
Is your money going towards efforts to provide a safe environment within which your sponsored Fellow can pursue research?
Will your money help erase the stigma that comes with being a DI Fellow?

I'm not sure of that, but they will send you a "Teiko" sport's watch.  :D

(I think the DI fellow goes by "Marvin")

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,17:11   

Guess who gave a lecture at Liberty University's convocation last Friday?
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce. Using a mousetrap as an example, he explained how the complexity of bacteria flagella (self-propelled cells) in the human body point to an intelligent designer.

Bacteria flagellum is made up of three essential parts: a paddle, a motor and a rotor. He said without any one of these parts the flagella, like a mousetrap without a spring, would cease to function properly.

“Like the mousetrap, it’s extremely difficult to see how something like [bacteria flagella] could be put together by numerous, successive, slight modifications,” he said.

There's a nice big picture of Behe accompanying the article. It would be a shame if someone were to photoshop it in some demeaning way.

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The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,17:17   

Quote (Lowell @ Feb. 06 2009,18:11)
Guess who gave a lecture at Liberty University's convocation last Friday?
 
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce. Using a mousetrap as an example, he explained how the complexity of bacteria flagella (self-propelled cells) in the human body point to an intelligent designer.

Bacteria flagellum is made up of three essential parts: a paddle, a motor and a rotor. He said without any one of these parts the flagella, like a mousetrap without a spring, would cease to function properly.

“Like the mousetrap, it’s extremely difficult to see how something like [bacteria flagella] could be put together by numerous, successive, slight modifications,” he said.

There's a nice big picture of Behe accompanying the article. It would be a shame if someone were to photoshop it in some demeaning way.

I get a 'not found'.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
JonF



Posts: 634
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,17:36   

Quote (khan @ Feb. 06 2009,18:17)
I get a 'not found'.

http://tinyurl.com/bohyeh

Interesting choice for the end of that URL.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,18:09   

Behe Liberty Blah Blah

Pardon my French but fuck me to hell in a handbasket, I can't believe Behe is STILL going on about the freaking mousetrap and flagellum.

I mean, srsly, HOW MANY TIMES does he have to have his nose rubbed in it to get a fucking clue?

He's like Jason coming back over and over and over.  "Intelligent Design" XIX - the Never Ending Flapdoodle

Mousetrap!  (You're wrong.)
Mousetrap!  (You're wrong.)
Mousetrap!  (You're wrong.)

OK, it's like Groundhog Day except Behe NEVER LEARNS!

Of course, I realize he has learned and he knows he's full of shit but he's so happy to spread shit, by god, there's a pony in there somewhere!

OMFG, what an idiot.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,19:22   

Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce.


Isn't that a change from earlier definitions, and isn't it a bit tautological?

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,19:31   

http://tinyurl.com/bohyeh

 
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce.

How many definitions of irreducible complexity has he given us? There was the 'the loss of any part will cause loss of function' definition, the 'cannot arise through evolution' definition and now this. I do wish he would decide on one definition and stick to it. I wonder, have the good people at UD been informed of the latest? I will have to check out their FAQs to see if they are keeping up with the latest in ID research.

ETA: I need to think and type quicker.

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All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2009,07:57   

Quote (Richard Simons @ Feb. 06 2009,19:31)
http://tinyurl.com/bohyeh

   
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce.

How many definitions of irreducible complexity has he given us? There was the 'the loss of any part will cause loss of function' definition, the 'cannot arise through evolution' definition and now this. I do wish he would decide on one definition and stick to it. I wonder, have the good people at UD been informed of the latest? I will have to check out their FAQs to see if they are keeping up with the latest in ID research.

ETA: I need to think and type quicker.

It is interesting how the same folks who whine about science because "it changes all the time!!!! What am I supposed to believe????" are OK with Behe's definition mutating like this...

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2009,16:19   

Quote
It is interesting how the same folks who whine about science because "it changes all the time!!!! What am I supposed to believe????" are OK with Behe's definition mutating like this...

Ah, but the mutations in his definitions are designed, rather than being selected based on their fitness as explanations.

Henry

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2009,19:43   

So, given the New Improved Definition of Irrefutably Complicated, how might we categorize a chef's knife?

It's a simple machine, a wedge.  (haha, I said "Wedge")  It has a handle, rivets and a blade.  Obviously, it works just fine without the handle or rivets to do "cutting" but the handle and rivets can't do "cutting" by themselves.

I must be missing something, 'cause I can't figure it out.

Ah, ha!

I've got it.

I'm not MISSING something, my problem is that I HAVE something.

A brain.

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,08:30   

Quote
Egnor: Science and religion don’t address entirely separate aspects of human experience. There is one truth about the world. The truth about the natural world is obviously a part of metaphysical truth. Science addresses the truth about the natural world, and religion addresses the deeper metaphysical truth. There are no separate magesteria, despite Stephen J. Gould’s spin. If God made the world, then intelligent design is true, assuming that the artifacts of His designing intelligence can be recognized as such. If there is no God, and the world just came to be, then Darwinism is true, because ID and Darwinism are just the affirmative and the negative answer to the same question: is there evidence for design in biology?

This is clear: metaphysical truth determines scientific truth. If there is a designer (metaphysical truth), then intelligent design is true (scientific truth). If there is no designer (metaphysical truth), then Darwinism is true (scientific truth).


Good grief. Egnor really is losing it. He rambles on like this for another six paragraphs, repeating the same point. It's exactly as he puts it: for him and his buddies their preconceived metaphysical "truth" determines scientific truth. No need to actually DO science or look at the evidence - you just know it.

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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,13:51   

Here it is Darwin's 200th Birthday and the best the DI can do is have Anika "The Tank" Smith report on a Zogby poll about academic freedom.

Nice one, Crowther and West!  Way to strut your stuff!

Wowzer, I'm convinced!

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,13:55   

Ok, Doc Bill. In regard to this post and the one on the RFJE topic, am I right in assuming that you have once again abused teh ol' bottle O' spirit?  :D

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
RupertG



Posts: 80
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,15:07   

Quote (JLT @ Feb. 12 2009,08:30)
Quote
Egnor: Science and religion don’t address entirely separate aspects of human experience. There is one truth about the world. The truth about the natural world is obviously a part of metaphysical truth. Science addresses the truth about the natural world, and religion addresses the deeper metaphysical truth. There are no separate magesteria, despite Stephen J. Gould’s spin. If God made the world, then intelligent design is true, assuming that the artifacts of His designing intelligence can be recognized as such. If there is no God, and the world just came to be, then Darwinism is true, because ID and Darwinism are just the affirmative and the negative answer to the same question: is there evidence for design in biology?

This is clear: metaphysical truth determines scientific truth. If there is a designer (metaphysical truth), then intelligent design is true (scientific truth). If there is no designer (metaphysical truth), then Darwinism is true (scientific truth).


Good grief. Egnor really is losing it. He rambles on like this for another six paragraphs, repeating the same point. It's exactly as he puts it: for him and his buddies their preconceived metaphysical "truth" determines scientific truth. No need to actually DO science or look at the evidence - you just know it.

Quite, quite wonderful. It's certainly unarguable - it has that distinctive cargo-cultish logicky tang, where if words are placed in roughly the same sort of order that words are used in normal argument, they magically acquire the same power as normal argument. Like a painting of a dog, it gives off a doggy aura.  But it won't fetch sticks.

A friend of mine was grinding his teeth over this sort of thing, but that's surely one of the intents - to annoy the opposition - along with comforting the believers. I think it's better to just watch and wonder, treating it as an anthropological phenomenon with, if you're lucky, an accompanying insight into some peculiar human condition.

--------------
Uncle Joe and Aunty Mabel
Fainted at the breakfast table
Children, let this be a warning
Never do it in the morning -- Ralph Vaughan Williams

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,15:23   

Once every 200 years I'm allowed to make merry.

Lime Jell-O vodka shots.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,15:26   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 12 2009,16:23)
Once every 200 years I'm allowed to make merry.

Lime Jell-O vodka shots.

Back when I was in college (the Pleistocene) we preferred strawberry.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,16:00   

Thunderbird wine mixed with cherry Kool-Aid.

(Hey, maybe that's where I drank the Kool-Aid.)

Then, Annie Green Springs wine came out and there was no turning back.

Bending over and hurling, sure, but no turning back.

** Breaking News! **

The DI has listed a series of Darwin Day peer-reviewed research articles written by DI fellows and supporters.

Oh, sorry, they're OpEd pieces.  John-Boy Wells has a "nice" article that's getting shredded in the comments.  The article sucks but the comments are fun.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,16:25   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 12 2009,17:00)
Thunderbird wine mixed with cherry Kool-Aid.

(Hey, maybe that's where I drank the Kool-Aid.)

Then, Annie Green Springs wine came out and there was no turning back.

Bending over and hurling, sure, but no turning back.

** Breaking News! **

The DI has listed a series of Darwin Day peer-reviewed research articles written by DI fellows and supporters.

Oh, sorry, they're OpEd pieces.
 John-Boy Wells has a "nice" article that's getting shredded in the comments.  The article sucks but the comments are fun.

Close enough for creos.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,16:39   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 12 2009,16:00)
** Breaking News! **

The DI has listed a series of Darwin Day peer-reviewed research articles written by DI fellows and supporters.

Oh, sorry, they're OpEd pieces.  John-Boy Wells has a "nice" article that's getting shredded in the comments.  The article sucks but the comments are fun.

Anybody got a link? I couldn't find it on discovery.org, and it sounds tardalicious.

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The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,17:41   

These guys don't do well when they leave the shelter of their comment free zones. Casey Luskin indulges in a 6,750+ word whinefest here. Don't bother reading any more than the first few paragraphs - they set the tone for the rest of the piece. The comments, however, are worthwhile.
(Sorry if this is off topic - it's not about the DI, but it is Casey.)

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We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.†We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.â€
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,17:50   

Here's the Well's piece of shit.

And this from some Texas lawyer goober.

And from Oklahoma we have this.  Hey, ERV, sic 'em!

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,17:57   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Feb. 12 2009,18:41)
These guys don't do well when they leave the shelter of their comment free zones. Casey Luskin indulges in a 6,750+ word whinefest [URL=http://www.usnews.com/blogs/room-for-debate/2009/02/12/darwin-believers-hide-fears-of-intelligent-design-behind-a-wall-of-denial-and-ridicule.htm

l]here[/URL]. Don't bother reading any more than the first few paragraphs - they set the tone for the rest of the piece. The comments, however, are worthwhile.
(Sorry if this is off topic - it's not about the DI, but it is Casey.)

That is some serious whining dumbfuckery.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,00:32   

I love that part in the comments on Luskin's blattering:

Quote
If throwing shoes as a symbol of disrespect was practiced in the US The Discovery Institute would have received a shoe closet that would make even Imelda Marcos jealous.


:D  :D  :D

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 2561
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,00:53   

Ha!  In the middle of the 1224 word section on how we evilutionists just ridicule IDers, Luskin write this:
Quote
We should ignore this type of empty rhetoric that is patently designed to intimidate dissenters.

1224 words?  That's a whole lotta ignoring goin' in.

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,10:31   

Whoa!  Where am I?  Who am I?

I woke up this morning and the party was over and the monkey was dead.*

Darn that Nyquil!




*That's the punchline to a joke I can't remember.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,10:58   

Casey Luskin:

Quote

Robert Pennock behaves in much the same fashion. In 2006, I observed that the University of California at San Diego ("UCSD," my alma mater) was requiring all freshman students to attend a lecture by Pennock attacking ID. I had no particular problem with that, apart from the fact that this was an imbalanced lecture series and no pro-ID speaker was invited for a similarly mandatory lecture. Pennock responded to my protests by writing a UCSD dean, attacking me as deceptive:

"The article on the Discovery Institute website about my talk (actually prior to my talk) is standard propaganda from these guys and filled with their usual deceptions and factual mistakes." (emphasis added)

In his recent op-ed here with U.S. News & World Report, Pennock likewise attempts to equate ID with creationism (more on this below) and tries to demonize ID proponents by stating that "Creationism, in whatever guise it has taken to get into the schools, has proven itself to be fundamentally deceptive."

Again, we see the use of demonization and character assassination to prevent people from scrutinizing the evidence for themselves.

Clearly, Mr. Katskee, Mr. Pennock, and many other Darwinists feel that the use of namecalling and ridicule should play a central role in their case against intelligent design.


Uh, Casey, your prime supporting quote from Pennock... didn't you notice that it only attacked the ideas and had precisely zero namecalling and zero ridicule content in it?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,11:06   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 13 2009,10:58)
Uh, Casey, your prime supporting quote from Pennock... didn't you notice that it only attacked the ideas and had precisely zero namecalling and zero ridicule content in it?


Casey Luskin  - Still Starring in   Clueless In Seattle ...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,11:08   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Feb. 12 2009,22:32)
I love that part in the comments on Luskin's blattering:

 
Quote
If throwing shoes as a symbol of disrespect was practiced in the US The Discovery Institute would have received a shoe closet that would make even Imelda Marcos jealous.


:D  :D  :D

Seattle phone book:

Discovery Institute     1511 3rd   206 292-0401
Payless ShoeSource   1529 3rd   206 622-9557

Same building.  I think Mrs Marcos had more expensive tastes, though.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,11:42   

Casey Luskin:

Quote

"Q: Dr. Pennock, isn ' t it true that there ' s not agreement among philosophers of science concerning the validity of methodological naturalism?"

Pennock implies that only philosophers of science who are sympathetic to ID reject methodological naturalism:

"A: The term methodological naturalism is fairly straightforward in the literature. There have been criticisms of it from people like Del Ratzsch from discussions specifically of this debate. So there ' s some who have taken up a sympathetic position to the intelligent design folks and tried to argue that we could dispense with this. (Pennock 2005b, 84)"

Larry Laudan (1983) is a good counterexample to this: he is not sympathetic to ID, yet he rejects methodological naturalism as a demarcation criterion for science. (This follows from the sentence from Laudan ' s paper I quoted in Section 1, as well as from the rest of Laudan ' s paper.)


Casey, didn't you notice the lack of discussion of "demarcation" in the transcript Q&A that you quoted?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,17:25   

I watched the ID - the future video podcast in "honour" of Darwin day and I realised for the first time that by looking at Wells' body language you can actually determine if he his lying.
You really have to look closely otherwise you may miss it. But every time just before he starts lying, he opens his mouth.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,17:49   

My favorite DI Moment of all time was when Mark Ryland from the DI's Washington, D.C. office was on a panel with Richard Thompson who defended the school board in Kitzmiller.

Thompson made a comment that the DI added fuel to the Dover fire by advocating teaching ID in the public school.

Then Ryland said no, no no!  The DI has NEVER advocated teaching ID in the public school.

THEN Thompson pulled out a document that the DI used to have on their website titled something like "How to Teach Intelligent Design and Avoid Constitutional Entanglements - A Teacher's Guide" and waved it in Ryland's face.

Now, remember, these guys are on the SAME SIDE!  It was hilarious.  Ryland shut up fast and Thompson was furious enough to launch into a tirade about how the DI pulled out of the case and what assholes they were.   (Poetic license at work here, but you get the picture.)

Soon after that Ryland left the DI to "pursue other interests" as they say.

Busted, I say!

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,19:33   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 13 2009,23:49)
My favorite DI Moment of all time was when Mark Ryland from the DI's Washington, D.C. office was on a panel with Richard Thompson who defended the school board in Kitzmiller.

Thompson made a comment that the DI added fuel to the Dover fire by advocating teaching ID in the public school.

Then Ryland said no, no no!  The DI has NEVER advocated teaching ID in the public school.

THEN Thompson pulled out a document that the DI used to have on their website titled something like "How to Teach Intelligent Design and Avoid Constitutional Entanglements - A Teacher's Guide" and waved it in Ryland's face.

Now, remember, these guys are on the SAME SIDE!  It was hilarious.  Ryland shut up fast and Thompson was furious enough to launch into a tirade about how the DI pulled out of the case and what assholes they were.   (Poetic license at work here, but you get the picture.)

Soon after that Ryland left the DI to "pursue other interests" as they say.

Busted, I say!

LOL.

I found this little tale about Ryland at The Institute for the Study of Nature homepage:
   
Quote
In the early 1990s Mark became interested in the modern debate over evolution theory, finding merit in modern critiques of the standard (selectionist) understanding of neo-Darwinism. This interest led him to collaborate for a time with the Discovery Institute, a center of gravity for both critics of neo-Darwinism (a broader group, many of whom have no opinion on an alternative explanation for biological evolution) as well as proponents of "intelligent design theory" or "IDT" (who purport to provide an alternative explanation). Eventually he became convinced that IDT was not a real alternative, and he also grew tired of the narrow perspectives and endless bickering that characterize the modern debate about evolution. [...]

See, he wasn't busted. He grew tired of the bickering. And  
Quote
He also discovered that there is a pressing need for the re-development of an explicitly philosophical, classically informed, and non-reductionist approach to nature, synthesizing the wisdom of the ancients with the insights and capabilities of modern scientific ideas and methods.
which is why he co-founded the ISN.
Now you know...

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,20:38   

I wonder if Ryland got a layoff package from the DI.

Knowing Ryland's luck he got Luskin's "package."

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,11:29   

Looks like Casey Luskin doesn't like Expelled Exposed. He spends more than 4000 words (and ~80 links) on "correc[ting]  the various misrepresentations and falsehoods spread by Darwinists about Expelled."

Maybe he doesn't like the fact that if you google "expelled" you get Expelled Exposed as the first hit and not their lousy movie.

 
Quote
“Expelled Exposed” is now exposed for what it really is: it’s not just a website making the case against ID (which is perfectly fine if that’s what ID critics want to do)—it’s a website attempting to convince people that ID deserves no academic freedom. In other words, “Expelled Exposed” is an effort to encourage the further persecution of ID-proponents.

Ironically, by denying that professionally qualified ID proponents have a right to "a place in academia,” “Expelled Exposed” has justified the central thesis of the documentary Expelled, namely that qualified ID proponents do not receive academic freedom to hold, discuss, and promote their views within the academy.

Someone should tell Luskin that academic freedom isn't the freedom to spout nonsense.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,12:32   

Sometimes, you just have to stop for a moment and wonder at the infinite stupidity of the ID movement.

Let's say I have a theory that bananas are a kind of fish. I will write books about it, create my own Banana Institute to promote the idea, try to push it in nutrition classes, get my ass handed to me, complain about the evil fruity conspiracy not willing to Teach The Controversy© and finally cry "oppresion" because the institutions refuse to take my claims, or its defenders, seriously.

Academic freedom, yeah. These guys are a tablecloth and a ham sandwich short of a picnic...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,15:56   

What I like is how Luskin references his OWN propaganda.

"Hey, they were mean to Sternberg and if you don't believe me just read me.  See, I told you so!"

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,18:30   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Feb. 17 2009,12:32)
Sometimes, you just have to stop for a moment and wonder at the infinite stupidity of the ID movement.

Let's say I have a theory that bananas are a kind of fish. I will write books about it, create my own Banana Institute to promote the idea, try to push it in nutrition classes, get my ass handed to me, complain about the evil fruity conspiracy not willing to Teach The Controversy© and finally cry "oppresion" because the institutions refuse to take my claims, or its defenders, seriously.

Academic freedom, yeah. These guys are a tablecloth and a ham sandwich short of a picnic...

But are fish designed to fit perfectly into your hand?

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,20:20   

Quote (JLT @ Feb. 17 2009,11:29)
Someone should tell Luskin that academic freedom isn't the freedom to spout nonsense.

Sig Worthy!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,21:14   

Quote
But are fish designed to fit perfectly into your hand?


The square kind that they serve in fast food places are. ;)

Henry

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,21:25   

Quote (Henry J @ Feb. 17 2009,21:14)
Quote
But are fish designed to fit perfectly into your hand?


The square kind that they serve in fast food places are. ;)

Henry

Waterloo!!!!!!11111!!!!!1!!!!11!1oneoneone

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,21:26   

Quote (Henry J @ Feb. 17 2009,21:14)
Quote
But are fish designed to fit perfectly into your hand?


The square kind that they serve in fast food places are. ;)

Henry

Like these?

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,22:59   

The DI needs a little help.

It seems pretty clear to me.
To spin away from what THEY say
Bring momentum into play
Give intelligence a new name
To keep asininity in the game
Beget Darwin's anti theme
Generate a modern meme
Creationism's virgin saying
Can have them paying if not praying
Burnish it with well worn words
All will see the shine not turds
Cast it wide as warm and brown
Not green causing stuffed shirt frown

When you hate natural selection
Drag out your predilection
Wave it 'round for all to see
..Ahh ..just not in front of me
Then proceed to ram projection
In the the sphincter of prediction
Multiply and make it wander
Crowds will gather for a gander
“Look” they will blurt
“Casey's not been hurt”
He rises phoenix  from ID rubble
With brand new word in a bubble
Claiming not selection never nature
Adam's apple blew that day sure
Eve's to blame for our pickle
Not her creeper who could pedal
Cannot use the 'anti' message
Must be something from Messiah
Done to death by Roman Law
Anyone for crucifixion?


Never mind they onward blunder
Fearing all of Howard's thunder
'Casey you useless shit
Ahmanson  turrets in a snit
'Where's my new plan you little nerd
'Don't worry sir it's all but heard
Casey and the DI ponder
When's the best time to send it yonder?
'Rap it Casey' Sal advises
'Yeh dude' he blissfully surmises
'I'll back you all the way
'..but not today.
'I know what to do
We'll fix Darwin's diabolical design
We'll call it God's Industrial Revolution™

Give us not God's long plan
Casey Casey he's our man


--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:23   

Over at Evo Spews and Snooze, David Klinghoffer (Hey, David, what's that clinging to your hoffer?), is indignant

INDIGNANT, I say

about being called a dishonest creationist.

Is there any other kind?

Seems that the Klingmeister sent an unsolicited request for a university event to a representative of said university and was shocked

SHOCKED, I say

to find said unsolicited email request posted on PZ's website for all on the Intertubes to see.

"How dare they post my Spam," fumed Klingknocker!

The Klingster then proceeded to lambast against the gentle biology prof from Vermont  and Ben Stein with dialogue directly out of Star Trek.

Regarding Stein, Colonel Kling stated, "Dammit, Jim, he's an entertainer, not a doctor!"

I guess Ben won't get an invitation to the DI's Annual Picnic and Crow Eating Contest this year.

Check out the fun at
Pharyngula and
E&V Screed.

Srsly, folks, you can't make this stuff up.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:27   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 19 2009,18:23)
Over at Evo Spews and Snooze, David Klinghoffer (Hey, David, what's that clinging to your hoffer?), is indignant

INDIGNANT, I say

about being called a dishonest creationist.

Is there any other kind?

Seems that the Klingmeister sent an unsolicited request for a university event to a representative of said university and was shocked

SHOCKED, I say

to find said unsolicited email request posted on PZ's website for all on the Intertubes to see.

"How dare they post my Spam," fumed Klingknocker!

The Klingster then proceeded to lambast against the gentle biology prof from Vermont  and Ben Stein with dialogue directly out of Star Trek.

Regarding Stein, Colonel Kling stated, "Dammit, Jim, he's an entertainer, not a doctor!"

I guess Ben won't get an invitation to the DI's Annual Picnic and Crow Eating Contest this year.

Check out the fun at
Pharyngula and
E&V Screed.

Srsly, folks, you can't make this stuff up.

I just got a thank you note from the Good Doctor thanking me for thanking him for spanking Klinghoffer!

I'm never gonna wash my keyboard again!

(I paraphrased on the actual wording, but that's what it said!)

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,20:38   

Not to brag, but I got a note from the Good Doctor before it appeared on PZ's website and sent a copy, with permission from the Good Doctor, how ironic is that, to Genie Scott.

I'm having his baby.

Doc Bill Jr.

You're all invited to the Baby Shower.


(OK, I'm bragging.)

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,22:05   

Quote
about being called a dishonest creationist.

Is there any other kind?


Hard to tell, since an honest one would presumably not repeat an argument after hearing a refutation of it, I'd guess that nearly all the argumentation comes from the other kind.

Henry

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2009,01:07   

Dear Dr Klinghoffer,

I read and enjoyed your article "What Is Hypocrisy, After All?" at Evolution News & Views. I followed your links to Pharyngula and to Prof Gotelli's web page (and from there to his Burlington Post op-ed piece). Both pieces were of course outrageous and both (i.e. Pharyngula and the BP article) had comments sections where readers could voice their disapproval or otherwise.

Where can I provide feedback like this on EN&V?

Yours,

Paul Taylor

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.†We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.â€
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
AmandaHuginKiss



Posts: 150
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2009,21:27   

Those atheists from the Vatican and the Templeton Foundation are stopping the  DI from contributing.

I have read this before but it is nice to see the Vatican and the TI panning the DI in public.

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2009,21:53   

Quote (AmandaHuginKiss @ Mar. 07 2009,05:27)
Those atheists from the Vatican and the Templeton Foundation are stopping the  DI from contributing.

I have read this before but it is nice to see the Vatican and the TI panning the DI in public.

Help were being supressed

Quote
"We think that it's not a scientific perspective, nor a theological or philosophical one," said the Rev. Marc Leclerc, the conference director and a professor of philosophy of nature at the Gregorian. "This makes a dialogue very difficult, maybe impossible."



BWHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2009,00:09   

it's not science nor philosophy nor theology

roflmffffao

ITS THE TROOF HOMO.  WRITE THAT DOWN

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 24 2009,17:41   

Under the heading of Deja Vu All Over Again, the DI posted a brain fart by our favorite Heeeeeeere's Johnny Wells in response to something Coyne wrote.

What does Johnny-boy raise as a devastating rebuttal to Coyne's remarks?

Some cutting-edge research fresh out of the Biologic Institute?

No.

Results of research Wells has done at his lab in Frog Fur, Florida?

Nope.

A revolutionary computer simulation from the Marks & Dembski Centir for Intelligent Design, Tire and Hair Care Emporium in Waco, Texas?

Uh, not quite.

OK, whatever Wells did PLEASE let it not be the tired old Cambrian Explosion and Haeckel and Jaeckel!  Please, pleasepleasepleaseplease!

Ding! Correct answer.  Yes, Wells trotted out for almost as many times as Apple has downloaded apps from iTunes the Good Old Cambrian Explosion.

Srsly.

It's like Wells is playing the Sands and there's nobody in the audience.  Take my Cambrian Explosion ... please!

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 24 2009,22:41   

Quote (Doc Bill @ April 24 2009,17:41)
Under the heading of Deja Vu All Over Again, the DI posted a brain fart by our favorite Heeeeeeere's Johnny Wells in response to something Coyne wrote.

What does Johnny-boy raise as a devastating rebuttal to Coyne's remarks?

Some cutting-edge research fresh out of the Biologic Institute?

No.

Results of research Wells has done at his lab in Frog Fur, Florida?

Nope.

A revolutionary computer simulation from the Marks & Dembski Centir for Intelligent Design, Tire and Hair Care Emporium in Waco, Texas?

Uh, not quite.

OK, whatever Wells did PLEASE let it not be the tired old Cambrian Explosion and Haeckel and Jaeckel!  Please, pleasepleasepleaseplease!

Ding! Correct answer.  Yes, Wells trotted out for almost as many times as Apple has downloaded apps from iTunes the Good Old Cambrian Explosion.

Srsly.

It's like Wells is playing the Sands and there's nobody in the audience.  Take my Cambrian Explosion ... please!

There's a Cambrian Explosion App?  Damn, I guess they do have an App for everything...

Hmm - a creationist bingo app?  There could be gold in them thar hills!

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2009,14:58   

Stephen Meyer, Director of Something Very Important at the Dishonesty Institute, has a new book coming out!

It's called "The Bafflegab of Tard" or along those lines.  They even have a pitiful Blogspot-esque website that I'll leave as an exercise for the student to find.

There is a link to Dr. Meyer's long and illustrious biography that contains this choice bit when referring to his previous "publication" of nearly 5 years ago:

Quote
Prior to the publication of Signature in the Cell (ed. aka Bafflegab of Tard), the piece of writing for which Meyer was best known was an August 2004 review essay in the Smithsonian Institution-affiliated peer-reviewed biology journal Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington. The article laid out the evidential case for intelligent design, that certain features of living organisms--such as the miniature machines and complex circuits within cells--are better explained by an unspecified designing intelligence than by an undirected natural process like random mutation and natural selection.

Because the article was the first peer-review publication in a technical journal arguing for ID, the journal’s editor, evolutionary biologist Richard Sternberg, was punished by his Smithsonian supervisors for allowing Meyer’s pro-ID case into print. This led to an investigation of top Smithsonian personnel by the U.S. Office of Special Counsel, widely covered in the media, including the Wall Street Journal and Washington Post. The federal investigation concluded that Sternberg had been wrongly disciplined and intimidated. The case led to widespread public indignation at the pressures placed on Darwin-doubting scientists not only at the Smithsonian but at universities around the U.S. and elsewhere.


Dirty laundry in a freaking BIOGRAPHY!

Pitiful.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2009,17:29   

Quote

The federal investigation concluded that Sternberg had been wrongly disciplined and intimidated. The case led to widespread public indignation at the pressures placed on Darwin-doubting scientists not only at the Smithsonian but at universities around the U.S. and elsewhere.


The federal investigation concluded that there were no grounds on which the Office of Special Counsel could proceed. A political hack working there offered an unofficial opinion that Sternberg could pursue a civil complaint against the Smithsonian. Sternberg has declined to do so, AFAICT.

It doesn't sound quite so portentous when accurately described, does it?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2009,17:32   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 15 2009,20:58)
Stephen Meyer, Director of Something Very Important at the Dishonesty Institute, has a new book coming out!

It's called "The Bafflegab of Tard" or along those lines.  They even have a pitiful Blogspot-esque website that I'll leave as an exercise for the student to find.

There is a link to Dr. Meyer's long and illustrious biography that contains this choice bit when referring to his previous "publication" of nearly 5 years ago:

 
Quote
Prior to the publication of Signature in the Cell (ed. aka Bafflegab of Tard), the piece of writing for which Meyer was best known was an August 2004 review essay in the Smithsonian Institution-affiliated peer-reviewed biology journal Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington. The article laid out the evidential case for intelligent design, that certain features of living organisms--such as the miniature machines and complex circuits within cells--are better explained by an unspecified designing intelligence than by an undirected natural process like random mutation and natural selection.

Because the article was the first peer-review publication in a technical journal arguing for ID, the journal’s editor, evolutionary biologist Richard Sternberg, was punished by his Smithsonian supervisors for allowing Meyer’s pro-ID case into print. This led to an investigation of top Smithsonian personnel by the U.S. Office of Special Counsel, widely covered in the media, including the Wall Street Journal and Washington Post. The federal investigation concluded that Sternberg had been wrongly disciplined and intimidated. The case led to widespread public indignation at the pressures placed on Darwin-doubting scientists not only at the Smithsonian but at universities around the U.S. and elsewhere.


Dirty laundry in a freaking BIOGRAPHY!

Pitiful.

From teh short video about the book:
Quote
If you want to produce life in the first place, if you want to develop a new form of life from a preexisting form of life you have to provide information. So the question is where does that information comes from...
[SCM’s book] will show that the digital code embedded in DNA points powerfully to a designing intelligence and helps unravel a mystery that Darwin did not address: How did the very first life begin.

That's just depressing.

The Bafflegab of Tard
Index
Ch. 1: Paley's Watch
Ch. 2: A cell is more complicated than a watch
Ch. 3: Where did the information come from?
Ch. 3: Code is designed, DNA is code, therefore God
Ch. 4: Also, first cell was designed because nothing comes from nothing
Ch. 5: How can you not be convinced by this?
Ch. 6: I was Expelled because Darwinists were afraid of me
Ch. 7: Waterloo

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2009,18:11   

if it doesn't end with waterloo it doesn't pass the offering plate test.  good tard is uplifting.  jolly good show and all that kinda stuff

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2009,19:31   

H'mph! The Disco Institute gets a two'fer in an Associated Press article on Wallace. Flannery and Dembski's new "book" on Wallace gets mentioned, as does Roy Davies crud.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2009,20:59   

Quote (afarensis @ June 28 2009,19:31)
H'mph! The Disco Institute gets a two'fer in an Associated Press article on Wallace. Flannery and Dembski's new "book" on Wallace gets mentioned, as does Roy Davies crud.

They would be better off talking about Ray   Davies "Return To Waterloo" ...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,19:28   

Illogic and Innumeracy at the Discovery Institute

Dr. Ann Gauger shows she has the right spin for the DI.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,19:50   

Quote
If three out of the four forces driving evolution are non-adaptive, then perhaps most evolutionary change is also non-adaptive, and not due to the power of natural selection.




--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,20:18   

Quote
A trivial result from examination of the genetic code is that about 20% of possible single nucleotide changes are completely neutral, meaning that a substantial proportion of a genome could change without engaging any selection at all. On the other hand, only about 1.5% of the human genome codes for proteins. Selective processes can be far less frequently in action than drift and yet have important effects on the evolution of traits; what the mode of evolution is does not eliminate selection as the cause of the various phenomena Gauger lists.

Question, not a comment:

Are some "neutral" mutations important in retrospect? That is, does context change the interpretation of a mutation? Does the accumulation of non-selected mutations ever look, in retrospect, like a chain of selection?

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,21:33   

Quote (midwifetoad @ July 13 2009,20:18)
 
Quote
A trivial result from examination of the genetic code is that about 20% of possible single nucleotide changes are completely neutral, meaning that a substantial proportion of a genome could change without engaging any selection at all. On the other hand, only about 1.5% of the human genome codes for proteins. Selective processes can be far less frequently in action than drift and yet have important effects on the evolution of traits; what the mode of evolution is does not eliminate selection as the cause of the various phenomena Gauger lists.

Question, not a comment:

Are some "neutral" mutations important in retrospect? That is, does context change the interpretation of a mutation? Does the accumulation of non-selected mutations ever look, in retrospect, like a chain of selection?

I'm not intending any implication of exclusion. It looks like quite a lot of important evolutionary events, like various speciation events, are neutral. But Gauger's argument to dismiss selection as incapable of important evolutionary change is completely specious.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,22:25   

All I'm suggesting, based on my own fiddling around, is that there is no need to assume that each step in the invention of a new function must be selected.

Of course I'm thinking of Behe's irreducible structures.

I see no reason why a population rich in fitness equivalent variants cannot occasionally produce a significant new capability. Looking backward at the history it might look like a continuous chain leading toward a goal, but seen in the context of a population, it would not look like continuous cumulative selection.

Forgive me for asking what may be naive questions, but I'm not a biologist.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,22:58   

Quote

All I'm suggesting, based on my own fiddling around, is that there is no need to assume that each step in the invention of a new function must be selected.


This is true.

Gauger's claim, though, wasn't about monotonicity.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,03:49   

Quote (midwifetoad @ July 14 2009,04:25)
All I'm suggesting, based on my own fiddling around, is that there is no need to assume that each step in the invention of a new function must be selected.

After a gene duplication mutations in the duplicated gene that limit/alter the original functionality (and might have been deleterious in the original gene) can spread trough genetic drift. Subsequent mutations can lead to a complete loss of the duplicated gene but in rare cases they can convey a new function (or altered enzyme specificity or ...).

Maybe not a perfect example for this but still interesting in this context is the evolution of hormone receptors.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,05:58   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 13 2009,19:28)
Illogic and Innumeracy at the Discovery Institute

Dr. Ann Gauger shows she has the right spin for the DI.

That name sounded familiar.

From a report on the 2007 Wistar conference by Daniel R Brooks found here:
Quote
The next presentation in this session was by Ann Gauger, a microbiologist and employee of the Biologic Institute, whose presentation was entitled, “Assessing the difficulty of pathway evolution: an experimental test.” Her presentation was remarkable in part because she performed experiments and reported original data.

She began with the repetitive attempt at a reductio ad absurdum, stating that the current complexity of metabolic pathways within cells could not have been created by gene duplication or gene recruitment (another name for co-option), and therefore they were designed. She suggested that contemporary evolutionists believe if there is not a payoff in terms of adaptive value within a few generations, any duplicated gene will be lost, and that for recruitment/co-option to work, function must change within a very few mutations. It is factually untrue that these assertions are an essential part of Darwinian theory. At most, they were initial starting points for investigations into protein evolution long ago, but today’s evolutionary biology does not adhere to any of them. Gene duplication is considered an integral part of evolutionary dynamics and one major source of the co-option that is so ubiquitous in evolution.

She suggested that when similar proteins are “arranged by hierarchy,” the evidence suggests they arose from a common ancestor that predates the eukaryote/prokaryote split and perhaps even the Archaea. Gauger thus, like Behe, accepted not only a phylogeny of life but an ancient singular origin of life. Then she embarked on a series of experiments designed to emulate 2 billion years of microbial evolution in Petri dishes over a few bacterial generations. Specifically, she wanted to see if either of two forms of a protein would mutate directly into the other under those experimental conditions. They did not.

Gunther Wagner congratulated Dr. Gauger on doing some great experimental work, but noted some logical inconsistencies in inference. The first is a phylogenetic comparative issue; it is necessary to know the ancestral state of the two proteins. If you are dealing with two proteins each derived separately from a common ancestor, then the experiment involves a minimum of two steps, backwards to the ancestral condition and then forwards to the alternative derived condition. It seems unlikely that you would be able to do that experimentally, especially if you have no idea of the environmental conditions under which the evolutionary diversification took place, and no idea if there were any intermediate forms that no longer survive. In response, Gauger admitted that the two proteins she studied are quite old and that studies of enzymes that are more recently diverged from each other report a lot of functional co-option, but only on a small scale.

She was then prompted by one of her colleagues to regale us with some new experimental finds. She gave what amounted to a second presentation, during which she discussed “leaky growth,” in microbial colonies at high densities, leading to horizontal transfer of genetic information, and announced that under such conditions she had actually found a novel variant that seemed to lead to enhanced colony growth. Gunther Wagner said, “So, a beneficial mutation happened right in your lab?” at which point the moderator halted questioning. We shuffled off for a coffee break with the admission hanging in the air that natural processes could not only produce new information, they could produce beneficial new information.


--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,07:19   

carlson i've said it before and i'll say it again, I truly value your powers of recall.  Good find.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,11:34   

Ann promises us Big Things in Part 2!

Quote
In the next post I will consider some of the implications of this controversy for intelligent design theory.


I'm extremely confident that Annie will fill in the blanks for us:

The theory of intelligent design is *blank*

The implications to the theory of intelligent design are *blank*

We shall see!  I can't wait.

**UPDATE ! !**

Late breaking news.  Ann's Part 2 is up and sure enough she filled in the blanks.

Unfortunately, she filled the blanks with blanks.


They need a new slogan:  Biologic - Shooting Blanks Since 2005

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,13:18   

Quote (midwifetoad @ July 13 2009,20:18)
Quote
A trivial result from examination of the genetic code is that about 20% of possible single nucleotide changes are completely neutral, meaning that a substantial proportion of a genome could change without engaging any selection at all. On the other hand, only about 1.5% of the human genome codes for proteins. Selective processes can be far less frequently in action than drift and yet have important effects on the evolution of traits; what the mode of evolution is does not eliminate selection as the cause of the various phenomena Gauger lists.

Question, not a comment:

Are some "neutral" mutations important in retrospect? That is, does context change the interpretation of a mutation? Does the accumulation of non-selected mutations ever look, in retrospect, like a chain of selection?

From my perspective-- Absolutely!  Context always matters!

Certain amino acids in HIV-1 envelope protein are 100% necessary in some subtypes... but not others.  You change the AA landscape of a protein, you change the tertiary structure, and a 'neutral'/variable position becomes deleterious/necessary.

Every domain is coevolving with every other domain.  Context totally matters.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,13:36   

ummm but what about duh e-scentual information that jesus put in there?  that must be taken literally not contextually!

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,15:35   

Quote

They need a new slogan:  Biologic - Shooting Blanks Since 2005


I recall hearing that the National Enquirer paid really, really well by journalism standards. Of course, the pay scale followed from the fact that working for the National Enquirer was a terminal move so far as a journalism career went, so they had to offer something extra.

So far as I can tell, all the Biologic Institute offers extra is potential martyrdom for its employees, if you include as martyrdom pulling in whatever book sales can bear and the honoraria from touring around various churches and whining about how one has been "expelled" from something. Hint: "martyr" is not what you are when someone argues with you, or disagrees with you vehemently.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,16:06   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2009,14:35)
Hint: "martyr" is not what you are when someone argues with you, or disagrees with you vehemently.

Sort of like the movie line "you keep using that word. I do not believe it means what you think it means."

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,07:44   

Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,09:08   

Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)

Thanks for the post and the link!

Yeah, I knew all that, but it was good to see the presentation, the presentations was well done, and laughing and pointing at the screen shots of Luskin are always fun and good to do.

This is an outstanding source to use in educating someone new to the DI's and the ID shill game.

Any puppets - willing to accept martydom - should link and/or post about this at UD!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,10:22   

Quote (J-Dog @ July 25 2009,15:08)
 
Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)

Thanks for the post and the link!

Yeah, I knew all that, but it was good to see the presentation, the presentations was well done, and laughing and pointing at the screen shots of Luskin are always fun and good to do.

This is an outstanding source to use in educating someone new to the DI's and the ID shill game.

Any puppets - willing to accept martydom - should link and/or post about this at UD!

One of these days I'll have to register at UD...
Unfortunately, I've got only one chance for puppetry. It's very unlikely, with all their design detection methods, that they wouldn't recognise my German accent the second time around...

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,10:31   

Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,11:23   

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 25 2009,10:31)
Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)


But I am not sure that I can ever forgive Luskin for stealing this poor kitty's eyebrows... Perhaps a call to Homeland Security the Enforcement Division of PETA might be in order?



Edited by Lou FCD on July 25 2009,21:11

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,12:18   

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 25 2009,11:31)
Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)


POTW!

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,14:34   

Quote (khan @ July 25 2009,12:18)
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 25 2009,11:31)
Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)


POTW!

Seconded!

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,16:15   

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 25 2009,16:31)
       
Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)


       
Quote
Forgiveness: Prescription for Health and Happiness

This ground breaking approach offers insights into the healing powers and medical benefits of forgiveness. Dr. Fred Casey Luskin offers a powerful method in which the emphasis is of letting go of hurt, helplessness and anger while increasing confidence, hope and happiness. Through these powerful techniques individuals can learn how to release unwanted hurts and grudges and open themselves to happiness, peace and love.

Did you let go of you hurt, helplessness, and anger yet?

XOX
JLT

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 05 2009,16:30   

Cool:

http://homepage.mac.com/pmcarlton/.Pictures/propaganda/DI_mosaic.jpg

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 05 2009,19:55   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 05 2009,16:30)
Cool:

http://homepage.mac.com/pmcarlton/.Pictures/propaganda/DI_mosaic.jpg

I'm not sure if that is art, or just some Christo-Luskin with a fetish about posting pictures of naked men in pain... OK it's not art.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 10 2009,13:41   

DISCOVERY BREAKS NEW ALCHEMY GROUND!

CONTINUES TO TURN PAPER INTO GOLD!

I just their latest abuse of the IRS 503© code, the lying scumbags at the DI have sent another letter to their loyal IDiot troops asking for money to support their lavish lifestyle by buying Stephen Meyer's latest excuse for a book.

They also include - at no extra charge!- the one page, two-sided bullshit screed that appeared in the Boston Globe and purports to show why Thomas Jefferson was an IDist.  

No better way to end this note than to quote from their latest vomit-inducing list of lies:

 
Quote
ps: For a gift of $150 or more, we will send you a copy of Signature in the Cell.  You won't want to miss the book that Norman Nevi, one of Britain's leading genticists, is calling "a landmark in the intelligent design debate."


pps:  If anyone wants more details, or a scan copy of the actual letter or Meyer's article, PM me with contact details and I'll try to get it to you.  I personally recommend everyone go right to the source and use a puppet to sign up for ALL the latest DI mail scams.  You'll be glad you did!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 10 2009,16:44   

The DI has a video on YouTube:

Ziggy in the Cell

I thought it was Ziggy, but I didn't see Ziggy.  Thank Monkey for that!

Anyway, Meyer comments in the video that just after a protein is sequenced it enters a "barrel shaped machine" where the protein is folded.

What the hell is he talking about?  Barrel shaped machine?  It's been a while but I thought the final conformation resulted from the secondary structure (cross-links) derived from the primary structure (amino acid sequence).

Need education on this please!

(I know it may be a shock to some of you that old Doc Bill doesn't know everything, but there you have it.)

Also, comments are currently open on YouTube (hint, hint).

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 10 2009,17:03   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Aug. 10 2009,16:44)
The DI has a video on YouTube:

Ziggy in the Cell

I thought it was Ziggy, but I didn't see Ziggy.  Thank Monkey for that!

Anyway, Meyer comments in the video that just after a protein is sequenced it enters a "barrel shaped machine" where the protein is folded.

What the hell is he talking about?  Barrel shaped machine?  It's been a while but I thought the final conformation resulted from the secondary structure (cross-links) derived from the primary structure (amino acid sequence).

Need education on this please!

(I know it may be a shock to some of you that old Doc Bill doesn't know everything, but there you have it.)

Also, comments are currently open on YouTube (hint, hint).

Doc Bill,

The barrel shaped protein is a chaperone.  Of course, the designer had to use one to get the proteins to fold.  ;)

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 10 2009,17:19   

Yeah, so who chaperoned the chaperone, eh?

Are chaperone proteins generic or specific?

OK, I just read up on chaperone proteins at Wikipedia and it sounds more like chemistry than what Meyer described as a "barrel shaped machine" that "molds" the protein, or did he say "shaped?"

Who cares about Meyer!  I got bored and Googled "jennifer anniston nude pix" and got more hits.  Come to think about it, I could probably use a chaperone myself.

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,05:59   

Egnor's latest:
 
Quote
It’ll be interesting to see how the struggle between the new atheists and the framing atheists works itself out. I have no doubt that the new atheist approach is of considerable help to the ID movement. New atheism is an amalgam of all that is odious about atheism: self-aggrandizing arrogance, ignorance of even the rudiments of philosophy or theology or history, and the inexorable recourse to censorship, professional destruction, and other totalitarian methods. The only way in which the new atheists make the theist job harder in this debate is that the new atheists are so radically explicit that they’re difficult to satirize.

Framing atheists are much more difficult to deal with. They are less likely to be practicing scientists, but they are much savvier about the effective advancement of their ideology. The only way that atheism can advance is if it is implicit in cultural change, not explicit. That is why Darwinism has been atheism’s most powerful engine, bar none. The assertion that there is no God and therefore no teleology in nature is, to thoughtful men, transparent nonsense; it can only be advanced by cloaking it in ‘science’ — ill-defined concepts such as ‘evolution’ serve nicely, and have been remarkably effective.

LOL.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,12:50   

Quote (JLT @ Aug. 28 2009,05:59)
Egnor's latest:
 
Quote
It’ll be interesting to see how the struggle between the new atheists and the framing atheists works itself out. I have no doubt that the new atheist approach is of considerable help to the ID movement. New atheism is an amalgam of all that is odious about atheism: self-aggrandizing arrogance, ignorance of even the rudiments of philosophy or theology or history, and the inexorable recourse to censorship, professional destruction, and other totalitarian methods. The only way in which the new atheists make the theist job harder in this debate is that the new atheists are so radically explicit that they’re difficult to satirize.

Framing atheists are much more difficult to deal with. They are less likely to be practicing scientists, but they are much savvier about the effective advancement of their ideology. The only way that atheism can advance is if it is implicit in cultural change, not explicit. That is why Darwinism has been atheism’s most powerful engine, bar none. The assertion that there is no God and therefore no teleology in nature is, to thoughtful men, transparent nonsense; it can only be advanced by cloaking it in ‘science’ — ill-defined concepts such as ‘evolution’ serve nicely, and have been remarkably effective.

LOL.

Quote
  New atheism Dr. Egnor is an amalgam of all that is odious about atheism : self-aggrandizing arrogance, ignorance of even the rudiments of philosophy or theology or history, and the inexorable recourse to censorship, professional destruction, and other totalitarian methods.


Projection much Herr Doctor Egnor???  Kudos to you JLT for risking teminal-stage vomiting to read the drivel at the DI's "Slanted Views" site.  BTW - I felt sorry for Egnor, so I fixed his sentence.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Advocatus Diaboli



Posts: 198
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2009,12:06   

Disco Institute added the Dembski & Marks paper to their ever escalating list of "Peer-Reviewed & Peer-Edited Scientific Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design."

Quote
William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II, "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics A, Systems & Humans, Vol. 39 (5):1051-1061 (September, 2009). (PDF, 359KB)


Now the list has 41 items.

--------------
I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

"I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot

"Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova

"UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2009,12:14   

Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Sep. 01 2009,12:06)
Disco Institute added the Dembski & Marks paper to their ever escalating list of "Peer-Reviewed & Peer-Edited Scientific Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design."

 
Quote
William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II, "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics A, Systems & Humans, Vol. 39 (5):1051-1061 (September, 2009). (PDF, 359KB)


Now the list has 41 items.

"Peer-Edited"

Fnar.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2009,12:29   

they might as well include every single article ever published in Ecology, Evolution, PLoS, Nature, Science, Bioscience, Biogeography and the rest of all of them.  

right, jerry?

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2009,17:07   

Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Sep. 01 2009,12:06)
Disco Institute added the Dembski & Marks paper to their ever escalating list of "Peer-Reviewed & Peer-Edited Scientific Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design."

   
Quote
William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II, "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics A, Systems & Humans, Vol. 39 (5):1051-1061 (September, 2009). (PDF, 359KB)


Now the list has 41 items.

Yadda yadda, but what is The Theory of Intelligent Design ??? I don't hear ya?

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2009,17:55   

Quote (Quack @ Sep. 01 2009,15:07)
Yadda yadda, but what is The Theory of Intelligent Design ??? I don't hear ya?

Pre-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2009,02:13   

Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 01 2009,17:55)
   
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 01 2009,15:07)
Yadda yadda, but what is The Theory of Intelligent Design ??? I don't hear ya?

Pre-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

Ah, now I see! It is like Behe has been saying all the time?

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2009,05:37   

Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 02 2009,00:55)
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 01 2009,15:07)
Yadda yadda, but what is The Theory of Intelligent Design ??? I don't hear ya?

Pre-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

Don't you mean:

Pre-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

?

On the information level, it seems more in agreement with Dr Dr Dr's studies.

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2009,10:58   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Sep. 02 2009,03:37)
Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 02 2009,00:55)
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 01 2009,15:07)
Yadda yadda, but what is The Theory of Intelligent Design ??? I don't hear ya?

Pre-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

Don't you mean:

Pre-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

?

On the information level, it seems more in agreement with Dr Dr Dr's studies.

I disagree.  Pre-Dover, IDers were (unless they were behind closed doors) very careful not to identify the designer as Big G, to maximise the chances of getting it into the schools.

Post-Dover, there's zero chance of getting ID into the schools, it's all about selling crap to the gullible, and it's all Jesus, all the time.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2009,11:15   

If we could count "God"s per 100 words at UD, the trend would be increasing. If we expanded it to apologetics in general, we'd find that is pretty much the zeitgeist these days.


No science so far!

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Dwimr



Posts: 1
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2009,07:43   

This is my first time posting here. I have two questions.

1.Has Dembski ever publicly acknowledged whether he's a YEC or not? I noticed he can't stand theistic evolutionists. That brings me to question #2.

2.Isn't Behe Catholic and therefore a theistic evolutionist? Why doesn't Dembski ever criticize Behe?

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2009,15:38   

Quote (Dwimr @ Sep. 03 2009,07:43)
This is my first time posting here. I have two questions.

1.Has Dembski ever publicly acknowledged whether he's a YEC or not? I noticed he can't stand theistic evolutionists. That brings me to question #2.

2.Isn't Behe Catholic and therefore a theistic evolutionist? Why doesn't Dembski ever criticize Behe?

Both Behe and Dembski are not YEC.  Not great thinkers either, putting out rationalizations of "Ohh, life is so complex, God must be necessary to make the changes."

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2009,05:00   

Michael Egnor crows about a figure by ClimateAudit:

   
Quote
Real climate scientists are sifting out the details of the data to which CRU director and warmist Phil Jones applied fellow warmist Michael Mann's ‘Nature trick…to hide the decline…’.

The hidden data is that of Keith Briffa, a fellow climate scientist (and warmist) at East Anglia. Briffa compiled tree-ring data to obtain global temperature estimates back to 1400. But there was a problem with the tree-ring data, from the warmist perspective. The tree ring data showed pronounced cooling beginning in the mid-20th century. [...]
What to do?
Simple. Delete the tree rign data beginning in the mid-20th century, when the cooling became pronounced, and use (already CRU 'modified') ground station data more supportive of the warmist hypothesis in it's place.[...]
So here's "Mike's Nature trick...to hide the decline":
The warmists switched the source of the data at the end of the graph, just at the point where the data contradicted their hypothesis, and replaced it with manipulated different-source data that supported their hypothesis. They deleted the original contradictory data from the published report and from the public database. When pressed by years of Freedom of Information Act requests to release the original raw 'supportive' data, they finally admit that they threw it out and it can never be checked.


I found an explanation of the data in question here.

Apparently, what ClimateAudit shows is something called maximum latewood density. These data match the actually measured temperatures quite nicely up until the 1960 but fail to match up after that. Instead of hiding that fact, the scientists wrote an article about it*, where you can find this figure (figure 5 of the article shows the data from 1400 - 2000):


The maximum latewood densities that were deleted are hidden in the thick black line.



* Briffa et al. (1998). Trees tell of past climates: but are they speaking less clearly today? Phil. Trans. R. Soc. Lond. B 1998 353, 65-73 [pdf; free access (LOL)]

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2009,05:03   

BTW there's a good editorial in this week's Nature. The first couple of paragraphs:
 
Quote
The e-mail archives stolen last month from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia (UEA), UK, have been greeted by the climate-change-denialist fringe as a propaganda windfall (see page 551). To these denialists, the scientists' scathing remarks about certain controversial palaeoclimate reconstructions qualify as the proverbial 'smoking gun': proof that mainstream climate researchers have systematically conspired to suppress evidence contradicting their doctrine that humans are warming the globe.

This paranoid interpretation would be laughable were it not for the fact that obstructionist politicians in the US Senate will probably use it next year as an excuse to stiffen their opposition to the country's much needed climate bill. Nothing in the e-mails undermines the scientific case that global warming is real — or that human activities are almost certainly the cause. That case is supported by multiple, robust lines of evidence, including several that are completely independent of the climate reconstructions debated in the e-mails.


ETA: Science does have something about it, too.
Quote
Four e-mail exchanges have received most of the media attention. The first regards a research finding considered by most scientists as a canonical fact: that the globe warmed by roughly 0.7°C in the 20th century. That fact derives in large part from global temperature data recorded by stations on land and sea, as analyzed independently by groups at East Anglia, NASA, and the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Referring to requests for climate data from critics, CRU Director Phil Jones wrote in 2005 that "I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone." In May 2009, Jones told Michael Mann of Pennsylvania State University, University Park, to "delete any emails" to a colleague about their work on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report and to ask a third colleague to do the same. (Mann says he conveyed the message but deleted no messages himself.) Through a spokesperson, Jones declined an interview request. But in a statement he said that "no record" has been deleted amid a bombardment of "Freedom of Information requests." CRU acknowledged in August that it deleted old data on digital tapes to make space for a move.

A second message relates to a chapter in the 2007 IPCC report that Jones edited. In 2004, he suggested that two recent papers on temperature trends didn't deserve to be published in a peer-reviewed journal. "I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report," he wrote Mann. "Kevin [Trenberth] and I will keep them out somehow - even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is." But Trenberth, of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, says the papers were indeed considered. Thomas Karl, director of the National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, North Carolina, an official reviewer for the chapter, says the IPCC's peer-review procedures "were sacrosanct." Both papers wound up being cited.

A third message is viewed by critics as an acknowledgement that global warming has ceased. "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't," wrote Trenberth in October. Contrarians have noted the lack of record new highs in global temperature since 1998 (Science, 2 October, p. 28). But Trenberth was actually bemoaning something else. "The observing system we have is inadequate for tracking energy flow through the climate system," he observed, affecting the forecasting of year-to-year climate changes.

A fourth message, about assembling a diagram for a 1999 World Meteorological Organization report, has been misinterpreted, says Trenberth (see graphic). Scientists believe proxy data such as tree rings are valuable for reconstructing past climates, but certain tree-ring data became unreliable midway through the century. So scientists used proxy data for all but the final 40 years of the millennium before switching to instrumental data in 1961. "Reasonable people," writes Stephen McIntyre, a retired industry consultant and prominent blogger, might conclude that the decision not to show the divergence of the two data sets was "simply a trick" to avoid giving fuel to skeptics.


--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
RupertG



Posts: 80
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 06 2009,13:09   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 10 2009,13:41)
     
Quote
ps: For a gift of $150 or more, we will send you a copy of Signature in the Cell.  You won't want to miss the book that Norman Nevi, one of Britain's leading genticists, is calling "a landmark in the intelligent design debate."


Norman who? I've never heard of the fellow, and neither has Google. I live in that Britain place (I like Marmite) and I can spell genneticyst, so if anyone should know...

R

--------------
Uncle Joe and Aunty Mabel
Fainted at the breakfast table
Children, let this be a warning
Never do it in the morning -- Ralph Vaughan Williams

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3497
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 06 2009,21:27   

That's a typo. Nevi called it a skidmark, not a landmark.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2010,04:52   

Rob Crowther, Again

Taking apart a short post from Rob Crowther demonstrates that a lot of explanation can be required to respond to even brief passages of BS.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2010,19:11   

I was at work today and received a mass email from one of our clients announcing that he was no longer in the mortgage business as he was going to work for the Discovery Institute. Can't be the same Disco 'Tute we all no and laugh at I thought. Then I followed the link provided in the announcement and sure enough it was. So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2010,19:35   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 01 2010,19:11)
So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

Aferensis - Dude, repeat after me:

"There's A Sucker Born Every Minute".

When your done fleecing souls for the Mortgage Industry, it's a natural switch to fleecing souls for The Jesus Industry The Designer Industry.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2010,20:18   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 01 2010,19:35)
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 01 2010,19:11)
So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

Aferensis - Dude, repeat after me:

"There's A Sucker Born Every Minute".

When your done fleecing souls for the Mortgage Industry, it's a natural switch to fleecing souls for The Jesus Industry The Designer Industry.

Apparently I was wrong about Cleveland- this is the guy - based on his profile I can see how he got there. Apparently he is bi, that is he fleeces for himself and for Jesus.

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2010,23:40   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 01 2010,17:11)
I was at work today and received a mass email from one of our clients announcing that he was no longer in the mortgage business as he was going to work for the Discovery Institute. Can't be the same Disco 'Tute we all no and laugh at I thought. Then I followed the link provided in the announcement and sure enough it was. So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

Could you share with us the Email?

PLLeeeeazzzzzzzzzzzzzze!!!!!!

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2010,19:05   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 01 2010,23:40)
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 01 2010,17:11)
I was at work today and received a mass email from one of our clients announcing that he was no longer in the mortgage business as he was going to work for the Discovery Institute. Can't be the same Disco 'Tute we all no and laugh at I thought. Then I followed the link provided in the announcement and sure enough it was. So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

Could you share with us the Email?

PLLeeeeazzzzzzzzzzzzzze!!!!!!

No, unfortunately it was a work email and they have some serious security rules.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
sledgehammer



Posts: 533
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2010,10:23   

From the NYT on the politics of linking AGW to EvoDenial:
Quote
The linkage of evolution and global warming is partly a legal strategy: courts have found that singling out evolution for criticism in public schools is a violation of the separation of church and state. By insisting that global warming also be debated, deniers of evolution can argue that they are simply championing academic freedom in general.

Quote
John G. West, a senior fellow with the Discovery Institute in Seattle, a group that advocates intelligent design and has led the campaign for teaching critiques of evolution in the schools, said that the institute was not specifically promoting opposition to accepted science on climate change. Still, Mr. West said, he is sympathetic to that cause.
“There is a lot of similar dogmatism on this issue,” he said, “with scientists being persecuted for findings that are not in keeping with the orthodoxy. We think analyzing and evaluating scientific evidence is a good thing, whether that is about global warming or evolution.”

Larry Krause weighs in:
Quote
“Wherever there is a battle over evolution now,” he said, “there is a secondary battle to diminish other hot-button issues like Big Bang and, increasingly, climate change. It is all about casting doubt on the veracity of science — to say it is just one view of the world, just another story, no better or more valid than fundamentalism.”

and the NCSE:
Quote
After that, said Joshua Rosenau, a project director for the National Center for Science Education, he began noticing that attacks on climate change science were being packaged with criticism of evolution in curriculum initiatives.
He fears that even a few state-level victories could have an effect on what gets taught across the nation.


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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2010,18:51   

DI bleating self-denial.

Go ahead, DI; admit that you have a creation science problem. It's the first step toward recovery...

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2010,19:43   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 01 2010,19:11)
I was at work today and received a mass email from one of our clients announcing that he was no longer in the mortgage business as he was going to work for the Discovery Institute. Can't be the same Disco 'Tute we all no and laugh at I thought. Then I followed the link provided in the announcement and sure enough it was. So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

Maybe the DI is in danger of having its P.O. box foreclosed on? :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,12:34   

Without a P.O. Box, would they become the Disgruntled Institute?

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,13:46   

Quote (Henry J @ June 03 2010,10:34)
Without a P.O. Box, would they become the Disgruntled Institute?

Mmm.  If the 'x' mutated to the 'y,' then they'd at least have a PO Boy sandwich, which ought to give them something to chew on in their disgruntlement...

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,14:24   

Quote (Steviepinhead @ June 03 2010,13:46)
Quote (Henry J @ June 03 2010,10:34)
Without a P.O. Box, would they become the Disgruntled Institute?

Mmm.  If the 'x' mutated to the 'y,' then they'd at least have a PO Boy sandwich, which ought to give them something to chew on in their disgruntlement...

BUT...

Since ID is all about magic, it's much easier, and I think appropriate, to use alchemy and transform the P to Fe, and the O to C and La, thus leaving the DI with a nice Fecal(a) Sandwich... "which ought to really give them something to chew on in their disgruntlement...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,14:40   

Or, maybe they could use the Fe to iron out their problems?

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5286
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,15:08   

Quote (Henry J @ June 03 2010,14:40)
Or, maybe they could use the Fe to iron out their problems?

Ya know, you don't have to repeat some old, tired, and decidedly unfunny pun every time someone posts.

Just sayin'.

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"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,15:24   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ June 03 2010,15:08)
Quote (Henry J @ June 03 2010,14:40)
Or, maybe they could use the Fe to iron out their problems?

Ya know, you don't have to repeat some old, tired, and decidedly unfunny pun every time someone posts.

Just sayin'.

Fluorine Ununhexium Potassium Uranium.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,22:16   

Ununhexium? What's element 116 got to do with it?

Henry

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 06 2010,11:47   

Appropriate for D-Day, Steve Matheson has dropped Da Bomb on Stevie Meyer and the Disco Tute.

Steve's Blog

Nothing that hasn't been said before in one forum or another, but he kicked the ant hill pretty hard.

Fun and games to follow, no doubt!

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 06 2010,21:01   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 06 2010,11:47)
Appropriate for D-Day, Steve Matheson has dropped Da Bomb on Stevie Meyer and the Disco Tute.

Steve's Blog

Nothing that hasn't been said before in one forum or another, but he kicked the ant hill pretty hard.

Fun and games to follow, no doubt!

Wow, that's nice.  The whole thing should be shared widely, but point 3 is especially delicious:  
Quote
3. Your Discovery Institute is a horrific mistake, an epic intellectual tragedy that is degrading the minds of those who consume its products and bringing dishonor to you and to the church. It is for good reason that Casey Luskin is held in such extreme contempt by your movement's critics, and there's something truly sick about the pattern of attacks that your operatives launched in the weeks after the Biola event.  It's clear that you have a cadre of attack dogs that do this work for you, and some of them seem unconstrained by standards of integrity. I can't state this strongly enough: the Discovery Institute is a dangerous cancer on the Christian intellect, both because of its unyielding commitment to dishonesty and because of its creepy mission to undermine science itself.  I'd like to see you do better, but I have no such hope for your institute. It needs to be destroyed, and I will do what I can to bring that about.

Emphasis added.  
I like this guy.

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"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,03:25   

Awesome! His writing skills are superb; he is crystal clear and a joy to read. I believe he even knows what he's talking about.
Too many people don't.

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,08:14   

Quote (Quack @ June 07 2010,03:25)
Awesome! His writing skills are superb; he is crystal clear and a joy to read. I believe he even knows what he's talking about.
Too many people don't.

Like any / all at the Discovery Institute!

emphasis added

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2010,21:48   

Over at the Dishonesty Institutes "website" our intrepid Luskin wannabe, Anika "The Tank" Smith writes an article for Dr. Dougie Axe, who, apparently can't write for himself, defending Axe's "work."

Damn, it's hard writing about the Dishonesty Institute because you have to put so many words in quotes!  Otherwise you'd think they have a real website and did real work.

Hey, Axe, you moron, how's it feel having your "research" written up by The Tank?  Whazzamatta, weasel got your tongue???

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2010,22:16   

Oh, my bad, a thousand apologies!  

I misrepresented, misconstrued and conflated DOCTOR Douglas Axe's "argument" with some sort of fiction reported by Anika "The Tank" Smith.

My bad.

Actually, Axe responded at the non-peer reviewed, closed, creationist propaganda website from the BioIlogic institute who's URL I seem to have lost.

Anyway, Axe responds from the echo chamber up there in Seattle something like he has a PC running Windows 3.1 and it crashed and therefore Darwin screwed nutria, or something like that.

I can't figure it out even though I have 4 PhD's for which I paid a pretty penny.

(Actually, I paid for 3 and the other I stole from Louis.)

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2561
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2010,01:55   

There used to be a Biologic Institute thread, but I can't find it. Anyway, here's the lost link. Axe declares Matheson wrong, because of a calculation based on a 747-in-junkyard model. Even wMad isn't that dumb any more.

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2010,05:52   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 10 2010,04:16)
[SNIP]

(Actually, I paid for 3 and the other I stole from Louis.)

Damn! I wondered where that had gone. Which one did you steal, was it the PhD in Beeronomics from the Institute of Applied Drunkenness or the PhD in Truthiness from the Department of Creationist Emulation?

Louis

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Bye.

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 533
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2010,11:21   

Quote (Bob O'H @ June 09 2010,23:55)
There used to be a Biologic Institute thread, but I can't find it. Anyway, here's the lost link. Axe declares Matheson wrong, because of a calculation based on a 747-in-junkyard model. Even wMad isn't that dumb any more.

It's telling that in his response, Axe correctly restates Matheson's criitique (that probability based on the size of the sequence space is irrelevant in a nested hierarchy), but doesn't even address that issue.  Instead, he throws out the usual "Gee, Look! BigNumber!" probability argument.
 Now Axe is not stupid, and I know that he knows very well what Matheson's argument implies, so I can only conclude that he knows or suspects that Matheson's argument is correct, he has no rebuttal, and is being purposely deceitful.
This is the same kind of intellectual dishonesty that Durston and Abel demonstrate whenever the subject of protein sequence space in an evolutionary context comes up.

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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3497
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2010,12:29   

Quote (Louis @ June 10 2010,03:52)
Quote (Doc Bill @ June 10 2010,04:16)
[SNIP]

(Actually, I paid for 3 and the other I stole from Louis.)

Damn! I wondered where that had gone. Which one did you steal, was it the PhD in Beeronomics from the Institute of Applied Drunkenness or the PhD in Truthiness from the Department of Creationist Emulation?

Louis

Maybe he meant that out of the pretty penny he paid for 4 Fuds, he paid for 3 himself.

He owes you a farthing.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,08:35   

A poster on pharyngula notes the Disco tute's 990 forms are also available.

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf....990.pdf

Some sick amounts of money being paid out to Meyer etc.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,10:57   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 12 2010,06:35)
A poster on pharyngula notes the Disco tute's 990 forms are also available.

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf....990.pdf

Some sick amounts of money being paid out to Meyer etc.

Lying for Jesus is hard work.  He deserves every penny of that $140,000.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 533
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,11:09   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 12 2010,06:35)
A poster on pharyngula notes the Disco tute's 990 forms are also available.

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf....990.pdf

Some sick amounts of money being paid out to Meyer etc.



Meyer proposes his own salary, board approves. Sweet deal.

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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,11:14   

Quote (sledgehammer @ June 12 2010,12:09)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 12 2010,06:35)
A poster on pharyngula notes the Disco tute's 990 forms are also available.

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf....990.pdf

Some sick amounts of money being paid out to Meyer etc.



Meyer proposes his own salary, board approves. Sweet deal.

Why can't I arrange that?

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,13:42   

Quote (sledgehammer @ June 12 2010,09:09)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 12 2010,06:35)
A poster on pharyngula notes the Disco tute's 990 forms are also available.

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf....990.pdf

Some sick amounts of money being paid out to Meyer etc.



Meyer proposes his own salary, board approves. Sweet deal.

Actually, Bruce Chapman is the president.  Meyer is the director of the Center for Science and Culture.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,14:01   

The DI folks cycle through "we're spending loads on research" and "we get pittances of money". I took a look at one of the pittance-class claims some years ago.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2010,03:03   

Who is the DI's new attack gerbil, Jonathan McLatchie? Another lawyer?
He manages right from the start to match Luskin's dishonesty and/or cluelessness which is not an easy feat.

Every year or so Luskin resurrects the "Haeckel was a fraud and his painting is still printed in our textbooks" canard. The last time he did it, he got told by Nick Matzke and Matt Young at PT and by Josh Rosenau.

Now Latchie reacts to Nick's and Young's post, starting with a quote:

Quote
According to Nick Matzke:
Quote
Haeckel didn't ignore the differences in embryos in the earliest period just after fertilization (differences which are visually significant but mostly fairly trivial, due to the different amounts of yolk in different vertebrate eggs).

Apparently Matzke missed some of the authorities cited by Luskin, which contradict Matzke's claims. All the necessary refutations of Matzke can be found in Luskin's original posts: [my emphasis]

He then goes on to quote what Gould, Richardson, etc., said about Haeckel's drawings of the pharyngeal stage. But that's not at all what Nick was talking about. He was talking about gastrulation which is a much earlier stage. This is obvious if you know embryonic development, but even if you don't you could just follow the link given in the same sentence by Nick Matzke:
Quote
First, Haeckel didn’t ignore the differences in embryos in the earliest period just after fertilization (differences which are visually significant but mostly fairly trivial, due to the different amounts of yolk in different vertebrate eggs) – in fact, Haeckel himself prominently diagrammed them, as I showed here back in 2006. Whoops!

Whoops, indeed. Gastrulation is followed by a neurula stage and only after that comes the pharyngeal stage.

Latchie's presentation of Matt Young's post is equally dishonest.

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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2010,08:18   

McLatch is, apparently, a respected scientist in the UK.

Here's his profile.

Probably has degrees in mathematics, history, philosophy, physics, chemistry, cooking and cosmotology, soon to be a Senior Jolly Old Fellow at the Disco Tute.

Works out of the Luskin Institute for Higher Learning Tyre Care and Massage Salon, Ltd., UK branch, Lower Uppington, Wilts, BR 549.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2010,09:20   

I now have to reformat my brain.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3497
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2010,10:56   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 30 2010,06:18)
BR 549.

Nice touch.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2010,11:49   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 30 2010,14:18)
McLatch is, apparently, a respected scientist in the UK.

Here's his profile.

Probably has degrees in mathematics, history, philosophy, physics, chemistry, cooking and cosmotology, soon to be a Senior Jolly Old Fellow at the Disco Tute.

Works out of the Luskin Institute for Higher Learning Tyre Care and Massage Salon, Ltd., UK branch, Lower Uppington, Wilts, BR 549.

I don't know whether that's the new DI guy or not, but he sure could be one. 21 and already completely messed up.

Oh no, he's StephenB's clone!
 
Quote
In order to reason coherently we use the laws of logic. But why do the laws of logic hold? There has to be an ultimate standard of absolute logic which we are to pattern our reasoning after. The laws of logic are essentially a reflection of the mind of God. The laws of non-contradiction, for instance, is hardly a subjective entity. [...]
Outside a Biblical framework, the atheist has no reason for assuming that his reasoning is absolute. In fact he must use his reasoning to derive that his reasoning is absolute, which is of course a circular argument. Therefore, the evolutionist must in fact ‘borrow’ from the very worldview he is trying to discredit, and so his argument absolutely breaks down. It is a bit like trying to argue against the existence of the All-About-God network on the All-About-God forums. In order for his reasoning to be coherent, it has to be false. Therefore, to assert that there is no God is self-refuting.


--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1100
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,03:15   

There's a highly dishonest (perhaps too prejudiced and stupid to know what honesty is, but whatever) piece of slime on the Biologos forum who goes by the name of Rich, whose passive-aggressive nastiness is apparently allowed, while calling him on his constant dishonesty about others is not approved.  If he's allowed to prevent honest discussion too greatly, and for much longer, well, I'll be among those opposed to Biologos.

Like all such "polite" bullies, he ignores any evidence for evolution that isn't approved by the IDiots, that is, every genetic step of the evolution of a complex organ (or some such thing) has to be given, at least for a hypothetical evolutionary scenario.  As a worshipper of Denton (we have to read him, he won't read anything at Pharyngula, Panda's Thumb, or Talkorigins--just to show how dishonest he is), he made me curious, so I checked out Denton's "Evolution:  A Theory in Crisis," although his disciple Behe certainly gave me no reason to think Denton had anything intelligent to say.

I didn't find anything very intelligent in the bits I have thus far scanned.

But I was surprised to quickly find the inversion of truth in a Denton analogy that seems to be behind ID, Rich, and the whole DI's (hence the thread I chose--Denton having once been a fellow of the DI, and certainly influential on most still there) moronic insistence that we have to provide all of the steps in evolution if we're to at all adequately demonstrate that it occurred -- without teh miracle.  I don't suppose this is unknown, but I'd never heard of it, and I'm sure that many haven't.

 
So here's a somewhat modified excerpt of something I wrote in another context (and yes, it involved Rich and his nastiness/stupidity/dishonesty):
   
Quote
Rich is enamored with Denton, and Denton included in "Evolution:  a theory in crisis" a very misleading, although not obviously deliberately dishonest, analogy with the evolution of languages, one that is actually completely opposite from the truth of the importance and necessity of understanding that evolution occurred prior to understanding all of the steps involved (which may never happen with much life, for the obvious reasons involving lost information).  Anyhow, here is the telling paragraph:

   
Quote
All the major Germanic languages of Europe, for example, including English, Dutch, German, and Icelandic, were already well differentiated and distinct and unlinked by transitional dialects when they first appeared in written form.  Yet, despite the absence of intermediates, no linguist today doubts that all the Germanic languages descended gradually over a period of three thousand years from an ancestral proto-Germanic tongue.  This is because they have been able to work out in very exact detail all the semantic, syntactic and phonetic changes which occurred along all the hypothetical pathways through which the languages evolved.  The reconstruction has been taken to such an extent that the entire lexicon, grammar, and even the sound of these extinct and long dead languages can be specified at every point along all the various lineages leading back in time to the proto-Germanic source.

Michael Denton  Evolution:  A Theory in Crisis.  p. 199.



One can quibble in various ways about that paragraph, as he's almost certainly exaggerating how much we know about every single aspect of extinct Germanic languages, and most definitely is wrong that we know the "sound" of the extinct languages (we no doubt know something about the sounds, but to baldly state "and even the sound of these extinct and long dead languages can be specified at every point along all the various lineages leading back in time to the proto-Germanic source," can hardly be true).

And Germanic languages are hardly the only ones we know evolved from a common source, and certainly less is known about the original Indo-European language (many roots are fairly certain, it is believed), so clearly Denton cherry-picked his "example."

But those errors pale against the fact that virtually all linguists were -- and had to be in order to work out the specifics -- certain that the Germanic languages, and indeed all of the Indo-European languages, were related well before the specifics were worked out.  They weren't convinced that the languages had evolved from common ancestors because all of the details were known, the details were able to be worked out because linguists were certain that the languages had evolved, and they operated very successfully within that framework to ferret out the details.


OK, I don't know if this is really the source of this major inability of IDiots to understand science, but it has to be a good candidate for it.  The ignorant and the stupid, like Rich (and Behe, or is he less naive and also less dumbly honest?), believe that language evolution is known only because all of the steps of such transitions are known (according to Denton's hyperbole), and so clearly biological evolution needs to have the same (fictional) details behind it if anyone is to believe it.

How anybody can be dull enough to think that every last bit of language evolution was known before linguists generally believed in language evolution is not easy to explain.  Yet it seems to be dumb enough for the IDCreationists to believe (or at least cling to in order to avoid learning what they don't want to know), since they are amazingly impervious to the sorts of knowledge that really did convince linguists that linguistic evolutionary theory was correct, so that further information could and would be discovered about that evolution.

I cringe to think of how much damage such a colossally stupid (although prejudice was probably the main source of the stupid) inversion has, likely, been able to cause.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,05:21   

All IDiots are hereby invited to come to Norway and study the evolution of languages. Richard Fortey in "Life, an Unauthorized Biography" even used the dialects evolved over hundreds of years in the many more or less isolated communities along the Norwegian Atlantic coastline, broken with fjords of length up to 200 kilometers, as an example.

One of the dialects has even been elevated to the status of a language on its own: nynorsk (New-Norwegian). NRK, the national  broadcasting company is required to use a minimum of 25% nynorsk.

It is estimated that less than 10% of the population are regular users of nynorsk.

All laws are written in nynorsk and are not even translated into our main language, "riksmål". I don't know if they are translated into foreign languages.

The 'problem' probably is a result of national-romantic sentiments associated with getting our own constitution (while still in union with Sweden) in 1814. We celebrate the date, 17th of May with lots of pomp and circumstance.

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,08:10   

Denton is an apostate. IDiots tend to ignore the fact that after "Theory in Crisis" he wrote "Nature's destiny," which pretty much accepts all of mainstream science. He falls back on the anthropic principle, but at least he doesn't wallow in magical designers intervening in the history of life.

American and British law tend to incorporate a bit of Latin.

For approximately the same reason that J.K. Rowling incorporated bits of Latin in Harry Potter.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,10:54   

Quote (Quack @ July 01 2010,05:21)
The 'problem' probably is a result of national-romantic sentiments associated with getting our own constitution (while still in union with Sweden) in 1814. We celebrate the date, 17th of May with lots of pomp and circumstance.

But do you blow things up?  It's very important to blow things up.  Secondary fires are a bonus.  If you want to make it classy, you can add musical accompaniment.

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,12:37   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ July 01 2010,04:15)
There's a highly dishonest (perhaps too prejudiced and stupid to know what honesty is, but whatever) piece of slime on the Biologos forum who goes by the name of Rich, whose passive-aggressive nastiness is apparently allowed, while calling him on his constant dishonesty about others is not approved.  If he's allowed to prevent honest discussion too greatly, and for much longer, well, I'll be among those opposed to Biologos.

Like all such "polite" bullies, he ignores any evidence for evolution that isn't approved by the IDiots, that is, every genetic step of the evolution of a complex organ (or some such thing) has to be given, at least for a hypothetical evolutionary scenario.  As a worshipper of Denton (we have to read him, he won't read anything at Pharyngula, Panda's Thumb, or Talkorigins--just to show how dishonest he is), he made me curious, so I checked out Denton's "Evolution:  A Theory in Crisis," although his disciple Behe certainly gave me no reason to think Denton had anything intelligent to say.

<ip-snay/>

Passive-agressive bully that worships Denton? Does he throw in a bit of Sermonti and Wells? Ya see, IOW, it could be our favorite, Keene-ly perceptive crypto-Muslim, Joe G!

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,14:38   

Casey opens mouth, inserts foot:
 
Quote
Intelligent Design Proponents Toil More than the Critics: A Response to Wesley Elsberry and Jeffrey Shallit

Elsberry and Shallit charged that “intelligent design advocates have produced many popular books, but essentially no scientific research.” It’s doubtful that charge was accurate when they first posted their article, but no serious critic could make that charge in 2010.

That link in Casey's post goes to the new, shiny, ID-friendly journal BIO-Complexity.  Which has so far published two articles, one of which is a critical review, so that leaves just one research article in the first half of 2010.  And were there any in 2009?  Can't recall.

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,14:54   

Quote (Texas Teach @ July 01 2010,10:54)
Quote (Quack @ July 01 2010,05:21)
The 'problem' probably is a result of national-romantic sentiments associated with getting our own constitution (while still in union with Sweden) in 1814. We celebrate the date, 17th of May with lots of pomp and circumstance.

But do you blow things up?  It's very important to blow things up.  Secondary fires are a bonus.  If you want to make it classy, you can add musical accompaniment.

I am afraid we're a little backward in that respect; except I've read about a tradition of young people very early May 17th blasting dynamite or whatever they could lay hands on.

Otherwise I am afraid we are a peaceful people. At least we used to be; modern times are making themselves noticeable here too.

But I did my best to blow up an air raid shelter on new year's eve 1945/46 though...

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,18:35   

The DI will be squawking about this in a few days, after they find someone to read it to them.

New Fossilzs in teh Pre-Pre-Pre-Cambrian.

Just like EVERY discovery, the DI will pooh-pooh it having pooed their pants.  Oh, noez, teh fozzilz!

The DI morons are more predictable than the MET!

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,20:09   

If anyone would like a mention in the blog post I'm writing up in response to Casey, just have a go at finding his various problems in reading comprehension in his "response".

Example: he criticizes us for "misapplying" Dembski's design
inference in our discussion of pulsars, when our point there was that the scientific community has considered design inferences -- as competing hypotheses -- and without Dembski's framework to help them.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,22:22   

Sheesh... there's over 7,500 words in that log of Luskin's.

He may be paid to do that by the word. He's certainly paid to push out the drivel. Nobody is paying me to write a response. I think I've pointed out this strategy of antievolutionists before, the argument from persistent logorrhea.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2010,10:55   

Robert Palpatine Crowther crows over a video of creationist Stephen Meyer answering the question "Is intelligent design creationism ™  science?"

Sort of like asking Kent Hovind "Is tax evasion legal?"

Or asking Casey Luskin "Does plucking a unibrow make you look less like a Bulgarian farm wife?"  (apologies to BFW's)

It's difficult to watch the video of little Stevie; so much whine and cheese.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2010,16:56   

I miss Dembski running UD.

Well, actually I miss Dembski running UD only because we don't get the Friday Meltdowns like we used to.  :(

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2010,17:52   

To add injury to insult, in Little Stevie's Video, the soundtrack is like a Vince Guaraldi piano riff.

Do you think Stevie is channeling Charlie Brown?

"Nobody likes me, Snoopy.  I'm just a big loser.  At least you're my friend, Snoopy, a loyal dog.  Right, Snoopy?"

(looks around and sees Snoopy getting hired by the Venter Institute.)

*sigh*

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,15:44   

DI will be giving away an iPod to one of the people who sign on to their mailing list.  We should all participate.  With the total number of their email subscribers approaching 10, the odds are good.  

Don't be too creative with your name.  They are supposed to announce the winner.

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,15:57   

Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,15:44)
DI will be giving away an iPod to one of the people who sign on to their mailing list.  We should all participate.  With the total number of their email subscribers approaching 10, the odds are good.  

Don't be too creative with your name.  They are supposed to announce the winner.

So "Galapagos Finch" is probably out of the question?

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,16:35   

Quote (dheddle @ July 15 2010,15:57)
Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,15:44)
DI will be giving away an iPod to one of the people who sign on to their mailing list.  We should all participate.  With the total number of their email subscribers approaching 10, the odds are good.  

Don't be too creative with your name.  They are supposed to announce the winner.

So "Galapagos Finch" is probably out of the question?

Don't even think about that, Heddle.  He's mine.

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,16:43   

Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,16:35)
Quote (dheddle @ July 15 2010,15:57)
Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,15:44)
DI will be giving away an iPod to one of the people who sign on to their mailing list.  We should all participate.  With the total number of their email subscribers approaching 10, the odds are good.  

Don't be too creative with your name.  They are supposed to announce the winner.

So "Galapagos Finch" is probably out of the question?

Don't even think about that, Heddle.  He's mine.

I'm going to use a french sounding name: Âne Vert. Or maybe Fesses Vertes.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,16:44   

Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,16:35)
Quote (dheddle @ July 15 2010,15:57)
Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,15:44)
DI will be giving away an iPod to one of the people who sign on to their mailing list.  We should all participate.  With the total number of their email subscribers approaching 10, the odds are good.  

Don't be too creative with your name.  They are supposed to announce the winner.

So "Galapagos Finch" is probably out of the question?

Don't even think about that, Heddle.  He's mine.

Meeeeoooooowww!



--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,20:34   

Maybe it's time for Hugh Jass to get resurrected.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2010,20:05   

I just got my new Discovery Institute Begging For Dollars Letter, and they base this quarter's pleading on the JPL Douchbag David Coppedge's casey Luskin filed lawsuit.

Lots of lies and laughs as you might expect.  It's just "Expelled - The 2010 Edition".   Highlights of the expensive four-color mailing include: Privaleged Planet, Darwanists, Coppedge illegally harassed, yada, yada, yada.

My recomendation is that more ATBC posters should sign up to be money wasters for the DI ASAP.  

Do yourself and science a favor and swell the list of the DI's mailing list!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 27 2010,02:01   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ July 01 2010,02:15)
There's a highly dishonest (perhaps too prejudiced and stupid to know what honesty is, but whatever) piece of slime on the Biologos forum who goes by the name of Rich, ...

Is that Rich Deem?

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2010,07:08   

David Klinghoffer Gets an Education

Lauri Lebo provides the tutelage.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2010,08:09   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Aug. 12 2010,07:08)
David Klinghoffer Gets an Education

Lauri Lebo provides the tutelage total spanking pwnage .


Excellent write up by Lauri, Wes.  Thanks for posting, and for you "onlookers" out there, the link Wes points to is an outstanding summary of the how and why ID is creationism and the how and why of the Discovery Institute's illegal shenanagins and attempts to get their brand of religion taught in science class.

Wes - BTW - Fixed That For You!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,09:01   

The Disco'tute made a little video promoting their totally scientific book "God and evolution". And they're allowing comments at YouTube! There even is a complete moron active in the comments section with this killer argument:
Quote
I? did NOT ask for articles about evolution. I want to know WHO, WHERE and WHEN was the hypothesis of evolution tested. I want to know the probability.

Delicious!

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2010,19:13   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ July 01 2010,02:15)
There's a highly dishonest (perhaps too prejudiced and stupid to know what honesty is, but whatever) piece of slime on the Biologos forum who goes by the name of Rich, whose passive-aggressive nastiness is apparently allowed, while calling him on his constant dishonesty about others is not approved.

Rich is having another meltdown…

http://tinyurl.com/33lmgl3

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2010,14:50   

Where's the islam?

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010....71.html

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2010,08:00   

Meet Pakicetus, the Terrestrial Mammal BioLogos Calls a "Whale"
   
Quote
But these aren't the only marine mistakes on the page. BioLogos says regarding the evolution of whales:
       
Quote
Recently, a 52-million-year-old whale fossil, Pakicetus, was found in Pakistan. It was clearly a small, wolf-sized whale, but it did not have the characteristic fat-pad, a structure that allows the whale's jaw vibrations to be used for hearing. Also, its teeth were much like those of the terrestrial animals already thought to be related to whales.

Aside from the fact that Pakicetus was discovered in 1983, there's quite a bit more that should be said about this fossil. The claim that Pakicetus is a whale is a bit misleading, and depends on how you define "whale."Most of us think of whales as aquatic mammals. While Pakicetus is often claimed to be an ancestor of whales based on its ear-bones and other skull-bones, it was a terrestrial land mammal.
[snip]
Evolutionary thinking may force-fit this terrestrial mammal into being labeled a "cetacean," but by any standard definition of the term, it was certainly no "whale."  

Lasey Cuskin never fails to deliver.
BioLogos lists a few fossils that show the transition from land-living mammals to aquatic whales, with Pakicetus being the earliest, least whale-like one.
Lasey complains that they're calling it a whale because, presumably, modern whales (and other Cetaceans) are aquatic. To support this complaint, he cites Thewissen, who originally described Pakicetus:
 
Quote
Taken together, the features of the skull indicate that pakicetids were terrestrial, and the locomotor skeleton displays running adaptations. Some features of the sense organs of pakicetids are also found in aquatic mammals, but they do not necessarily imply life in water. Pakicetids were terrestrial mammals, no more amphibious than a tapir.

(J. G. M. Thewissen, E. M. Williams, L. J. Roe, & S. T. Hussain, "Skeletons of terrestrial cetaceans and the relationship of whales to artiodactyls," Nature, Vol. 413:277-281 (September 20, 2001).)

Terrestrial cetaceans = land-living WHALES, you idiot. The standard definition of whales is not "What looks like a whale to Casey Luskin".
I can't even begin to understand what amount of twisted "thinking" (for lack of a better word) must go on in the "brain" of someone like Luskin. As if it even mattered how we formally classify Pakicetus, when the important point is that it isn't a clear cut! Pakicetus had both features characteristic for land-living mammals AND for whales. That's the f*ing point.

/rant

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2010,08:26   

Quote (JLT @ Nov. 07 2010,08:00)
Meet Pakicetus, the Terrestrial Mammal BioLogos Calls a "Whale"
<snip>

Haha! Little Luskin is annoyed that Darrel Falk - who is the main author of the article - refused to "rumble" during "The Vibrant Dance".

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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2010,18:55   

This bit cracks me up. Notice how Casey defines whales:

Quote
The claim that Pakicetus is a whale is a bit misleading, and depends on how you define "whale." Most of us think of whales as aquatic mammals. While Pakicetus is often claimed to be an ancestor of whales based on its ear-bones and other skull-bones, it was a terrestrial land mammal. And its lack of a fat-pad is by no means its only decidedly non-whale characteristic. Pakicetus discoverer J.G.M. Thewissen reviewed many aquatic features of true whales and notes that "Pakicetids display none of these features."

Ear bones and skull bones similar to whales in a terrestrial animal. I wonder what that could mean.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2010,20:09   

Biologos must be becoming as bad as Judge Jones to Luskin. They put a big hole in the Evolution=atheism=Nazi theory.

I bet Casey's current wet dream is to be called to the new congress after they have dealt with those pesky Climatologists.

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2010,20:21   

Biologos must be becoming as bad as Judge Jones to Luskin. They put a big hole in the Evolution=atheism=Nazi theory.

I bet Casey's current wet dream is to be called to the new congress after they have dealt with those pesky Climatologists.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2010,21:08   

Quote
This bit cracks me up. Notice how Casey defines whales:

But does he provide a cetacean for his source material?

Henry

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2010,21:18   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 08 2010,22:08)
Quote
This bit cracks me up. Notice how Casey defines whales:

But does he provide a cetacean for his source material?

Henry

Yes - consult the biolography.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 533
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2010,23:36   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 08 2010,19:18)
Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 08 2010,22:08)
Quote
This bit cracks me up. Notice how Casey defines whales:

But does he provide a cetacean for his source material?

Henry

Yes - consult the biolography.

He just keeps blubbering on about how it must all be a big fluke.

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2010,10:15   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Nov. 08 2010,22:36)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 08 2010,19:18)
Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 08 2010,22:08)
 
Quote
This bit cracks me up. Notice how Casey defines whales:

But does he provide a cetacean for his source material?

Henry

Yes - consult the biolography.

He just keeps blubbering on about how it must all be a big fluke.

So you think he's telling a tall tail?

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2010,17:09   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 09 2010,10:15)
Quote (sledgehammer @ Nov. 08 2010,22:36)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 08 2010,19:18)
 
Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 08 2010,22:08)
 
Quote
This bit cracks me up. Notice how Casey defines whales:

But does he provide a cetacean for his source material?

Henry

Yes - consult the biolography.

He just keeps blubbering on about how it must all be a big fluke.

So you think he's telling a tall tail?

He's definitely blowing something out a hole.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2010,19:23   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Nov. 09 2010,23:09)
Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 09 2010,10:15)
Quote (sledgehammer @ Nov. 08 2010,22:36)
 
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 08 2010,19:18)
 
Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 08 2010,22:08)
   
Quote
This bit cracks me up. Notice how Casey defines whales:

But does he provide a cetacean for his source material?

Henry

Yes - consult the biolography.

He just keeps blubbering on about how it must all be a big fluke.

So you think he's telling a tall tail?

He's definitely blowing something out a hole.

You win the internet...

...and unfortunately a go on Arden's mum, but that can't be helped I'm afraid. She's on the internet alot, it's kind of inevitable.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2010,22:23   

Quote (Louis @ Nov. 09 2010,19:23)
 
Quote (Texas Teach @ Nov. 09 2010,23:09)
 
Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 09 2010,10:15)
   
Quote (sledgehammer @ Nov. 08 2010,22:36)
   
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 08 2010,19:18)
     
Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 08 2010,22:08)
     
Quote
This bit cracks me up. Notice how Casey defines whales:

But does he provide a cetacean for his source material?

Henry

Yes - consult the biolography.

He just keeps blubbering on about how it must all be a big fluke.

So you think he's telling a tall tail?

He's definitely blowing something out a hole.

You win the internet...

...and unfortunately a go on Arden's mum, but that can't be helped I'm afraid. She's on the internet alot, it's kind of inevitable.

Louis

Which brings us strait to sperm* - whale we are talking about arden's mum anyway...

(Edit to add: On a more serious note, apparently Casey has gone for a meaningless definition of whales (under his definition one can include seals, walrusses, and Richardthugs - at least while he is taking a bath) and has never heard of systematics. )

* Sorry, I'm normally not that bawdy but some of you are bad influences. Not naming names but you all know who you are.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,13:48   

“Darwin’s Dilemma” Case: Sudden Turnabout

http://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2010....rnabout

Quote
One of AFA’s allegations in all of its complaints is that the unauthorized press releases were from the Discovery Institute, which wasn’t a party to the film screening contract, so such activities didn’t justify the cancellation of the contract. On that point, the Cross Complaint says, in paragraphs 16 & 17 on page 5, that the AFA and Discovery Institute “consistently communicated and collaborated.” They mention an AFA communication to Discoveroid John West stating: “I would like to coordinate our efforts.” Then they mention a response a week later from Discoveroid Robert Crowther saying: “Before we begin aggressively promoting this …”

In paragraph 18 on page 6 they quote an email from West to AFA saying that the “national media might get interested because the California Science Center is the west coast affiliate of the Smithsonian.” Paragraph 19 quotes a Crowther email saying “Once we let the jinni [sic] out of the bottle it’s likely all hell will break loose.”



--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,14:49   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Nov. 15 2010,13:48)
“Darwin’s Dilemma” Case: Sudden Turnabout

http://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2010....rnabout

Quote
One of AFA’s allegations in all of its complaints is that the unauthorized press releases were from the Discovery Institute, which wasn’t a party to the film screening contract, so such activities didn’t justify the cancellation of the contract. On that point, the Cross Complaint says, in paragraphs 16 & 17 on page 5, that the AFA and Discovery Institute “consistently communicated and collaborated.” They mention an AFA communication to Discoveroid John West stating: “I would like to coordinate our efforts.” Then they mention a response a week later from Discoveroid Robert Crowther saying: “Before we begin aggressively promoting this …”

In paragraph 18 on page 6 they quote an email from West to AFA saying that the “national media might get interested because the California Science Center is the west coast affiliate of the Smithsonian.” Paragraph 19 quotes a Crowther email saying “Once we let the jinni [sic] out of the bottle it’s likely all hell will break loose.”


Fantastic - and wonderfully ironic given the AFA were demanding copies of all communications..


http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009....81.html

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,15:30   

Discovery can be a bitch.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,16:31   

Luskin had a gerbgasm over the "fact" that the California Science Center is a GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION and therefor, ergo and lorum ipsum it was both a violation of Free Speech ™ and viewpoint discrimination to boot.

Both are bad, bad things but Especially Bad if done by a GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION.

Ahem, however, the moluskito failed to realize that the actual contract was between the AFA and the CSC Foundation, a private organization whose purpose was twofold:  raise private money for the CSC, and keep the CSC isolated from the kind of bullshit activities the DI specializes in.

Oopsie, can we say "My lawsuit fell apart and I can't get it up."

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,17:08   

DI should hire some lawyers if they intend to pursue a bunch of lawsuits.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,17:09   

What I meant to say is they should seek sound legal advice.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,17:12   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Nov. 15 2010,16:09)
What I meant to say is they should seek sound legal advice.

Oh, you mean they need professional help?

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,17:38   

Told you so

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,19:15   

The Cross Complaint lays it out in wonderful detail.  So refreshing to see plain English instead of DI weaselish.

Joe Peterson of the AFA, the organization that contracted the CSC Foundation to show the film, wrote in an email:

Quote
Whomever at (sic) wrote the copy on the Discovery Institutes press releases should have his head examined ... I thought the problem was buried in the text of the documents ... NOT THE HEADLINES.  Talk about waving a red flag in front of a bull.  It seems like they were deliberately trying to screw this up!!!


Well, when you let the jinni out of the bottle, as Crowther put it, you tend to screw things up.

In the other legal documents available on the NCSE website is one that refers to dismissing the lawsuit because of "unclean hands."  IANAL, but that appears to imply that the DI screwed the pooch ... in public!

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,19:27   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Nov. 15 2010,19:15)
The Cross Complaint lays it out in wonderful detail.  So refreshing to see plain English instead of DI weaselish.

Joe Peterson of the AFA, the organization that contracted the CSC Foundation to show the film, wrote in an email:

Quote
Whomever at (sic) wrote the copy on the Discovery Institutes press releases should have his head examined ... I thought the problem was buried in the text of the documents ... NOT THE HEADLINES.  Talk about waving a red flag in front of a bull.  It seems like they were deliberately trying to screw this up!!!


Well, when you let the jinni out of the bottle, as Crowther put it, you tend to screw things up.

In the other legal documents available on the NCSE website is one that refers to dismissing the lawsuit because of "unclean hands."  IANAL, but that appears to imply that the DI screwed the pooch ... in public!

The Dishonesty Institute fabricates a notroversy? Colour me shocked!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,22:03   

I still say there's a plant in the DI.  Someone is the ultimate poe by getting a job there and convincing them that these ideas are good ones.

"Hey, this looks like a discrimination case, we should sue."

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3497
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,23:13   

I think Mike Elzinga described them best as bumbling around "like drunken clowns".

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,23:35   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 16 2010,13:03)
I still say there's a plant in the DI.  Someone is the ultimate poe by getting a job there and convincing them that these ideas are good ones.

"Hey, this looks like a discrimination case, we should sue."

I say Luskin, nobody could be that dumb

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,10:33   

Quote (fnxtr @ Nov. 16 2010,00:13)
I think Mike Elzinga described them best as bumbling around "like drunken clowns".

That's from letting the gin out of the bottle.

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,10:51   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Nov. 15 2010,20:15)
The Cross Complaint lays it out in wonderful detail.  So refreshing to see plain English instead of DI weaselish.

Joe Peterson of the AFA, the organization that contracted the CSC Foundation to show the film, wrote in an email:

Quote
Whomever at (sic) wrote the copy on the Discovery Institutes press releases should have his head examined ... I thought the problem was buried in the text of the documents ... NOT THE HEADLINES.  Talk about waving a red flag in front of a bull.  It seems like they were deliberately trying to screw this up!!!


Well, when you let the jinni out of the bottle, as Crowther put it, you tend to screw things up.

In the other legal documents available on the NCSE website is one that refers to dismissing the lawsuit because of "unclean hands."  IANAL, but that appears to imply that the DI screwed the pooch ... in public!

My original reading of what Peterson wrote was that he was unaware of what the DI was planning to publish, which would have supported the contention that they were operating separately. However, on re-reading, I see that he is aware of what DI planned to say, just not the specifics of headline vs. text. This is pretty damning.

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
tsig



Posts: 339
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,12:16   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Nov. 15 2010,19:15)
The Cross Complaint lays it out in wonderful detail.  So refreshing to see plain English instead of DI weaselish.

Joe Peterson of the AFA, the organization that contracted the CSC Foundation to show the film, wrote in an email:

 
Quote
Whomever at (sic) wrote the copy on the Discovery Institutes press releases should have his head examined ... I thought the problem was buried in the text of the documents ... NOT THE HEADLINES.  Talk about waving a red flag in front of a bull.  It seems like they were deliberately trying to screw this up!!!


Well, when you let the jinni out of the bottle, as Crowther put it, you tend to screw things up.

In the other legal documents available on the NCSE website is one that refers to dismissing the lawsuit because of "unclean hands."  IANAL, but that appears to imply that the DI screwed the pooch ... in public!

Looks like they did a demski.

Pulling defeat from the jaws of victory.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,12:38   

Maybe the right will become disenchanted with the DI. It is obviously they're looking to fabricate something that isn't.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,12:39   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 16 2010,12:38)
Maybe the right will become disenchanted with the DI. It is obviously they're looking to fabricate something that isn't.

And 'the right' isn't?

These are the guys that think we're a Southern Baptist nation and Joe McCarthy was a great patriot.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,12:59   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 16 2010,10:38)
Maybe the right will become disenchanted with the DI. It is obviously they're looking to fabricate something that isn't.

The rightists don't mind James O'Keefe, or using thugs. Why would they mind the Discotutes.


PS: The cross complaint was a really fun read. The AFA, and DI are screwed!

Edited by Dr.GH on Nov. 16 2010,11:16

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
darvolution proponentsist



Posts: 8
Joined: Nov. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,16:44   

Quote (tsig @ Nov. 16 2010,12:16)
Looks like they did a demski.

Pulling defeat from the jaws of victory.


::: Select\Copy :::

::: Open FavQuote.txt :::

::: Paste\Save\Yes :::

Snatched !

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“If your worldview starts with a problematic origin story, everything else is going to be infected” ~ William Dembski

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,16:56   

Quote (darvolution proponentsist @ Nov. 16 2010,16:44)
Quote (tsig @ Nov. 16 2010,12:16)
Looks like they did a demski.

Pulling defeat from the jaws of victory.


::: Select\Copy :::

::: Open FavQuote.txt :::

::: Paste\Save\Yes :::

Snatched !

I've seen that pic befoe ;-)

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2010,06:42   

A New Zealand IDC fellow traveler visited the DI headquarters in Seattle and blogged about it.

I left a comment that comes up with an "awaiting moderation" notice.

 
Quote

"Responding to the science" -- since IDC hasn't ponied up science yet, the best that can be done in the interim is to examine what arguments and conjectures they have made. I've been there and done that. Get your copy of "Why Intelligent Design Fails" for the library here: http://tinyurl.com/2bo2ebt

Is it only the other side whose members engage in uncivil rhetoric? Here's a link that should convince any reasonable observer that IDC advocates do dish it out, too: http://antievolution.org/invcomp

Does the existence of uncivil IDC rhetoric also lead to the conclusion that their arguments have run out of steam? If not, why not?


Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Nov. 18 2010,06:43

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2010,10:26   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 18 2010,04:42)
A New Zealand IDC fellow traveler visited the DI headquarters in Seattle and blogged about it.

I left a comment that comes up with an "awaiting moderation" notice.

 
Quote

"Responding to the science" -- since IDC hasn't ponied up science yet, the best that can be done in the interim is to examine what arguments and conjectures they have made. I've been there and done that. Get your copy of "Why Intelligent Design Fails" for the library here: http://tinyurl.com/2bo2ebt

Is it only the other side whose members engage in uncivil rhetoric? Here's a link that should convince any reasonable observer that IDC advocates do dish it out, too: http://antievolution.org/invcomp

Does the existence of uncivil IDC rhetoric also lead to the conclusion that their arguments have run out of steam? If not, why not?

They don't have time to do any science, Dr Elsberry:

Quote
They have also very kindly suggested that I return to the US next year to undergo some media training in a specialised workshop they run for proponents of intelligent design. This training has become more important as ID is becoming more visible to the public and the hostile liberal media and scientific community begin to spend more time and energy attempting to discredit it. I will certainly do everything I can to not miss out on such a valuable opportunity.

They've got quite enough on their plates setting up specialised media training workshops.  The hostile liberal media and scientific community might ask proponents of intelligent design where the science is.  You think teaching them how to respond is easy?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2010,21:19   

I've been reading Mikey Behe's little whine over at Evo Snooze and is it only me or is Mikey starting to sound like JAD.

Hey, you evotards!  Get off my lawn!  How do you like them dingleberries?

It could be that Behe, like JAD, hasn't done science for so long that his imagination and reality have merged.  You showed 'em, Mikey, you was a real contendah!

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2010,22:20   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Nov. 17 2010,03:59)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 16 2010,10:38)
Maybe the right will become disenchanted with the DI. It is obviously they're looking to fabricate something that isn't.

The rightists don't mind James O'Keefe, or using thugs. Why would they mind the Discotutes.


PS: The cross complaint was a really fun read. The AFA, and DI are screwed!

Unfortunately for the right they need a group like the DI. Fortunately for us they are so incompetent. The danger is if somebody could come along and do the sneaky stuff competently.

  
darvolution proponentsist



Posts: 8
Joined: Nov. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2010,00:25   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 16 2010,16:56)

I've seen that pic befoe ;-)

Hehe, it's a favorite of mine.

The wink suggests I should mention that the pic may be familiar to you but it's likely I am not. ;-)

--------------
“If your worldview starts with a problematic origin story, everything else is going to be infected” ~ William Dembski

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2010,08:13   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 18 2010,07:42)
A New Zealand IDC fellow traveler visited the DI headquarters in Seattle and blogged about it.

I left a comment that comes up with an "awaiting moderation" notice.

 
Quote

"Responding to the science" -- since IDC hasn't ponied up science yet, the best that can be done in the interim is to examine what arguments and conjectures they have made. I've been there and done that. Get your copy of "Why Intelligent Design Fails" for the library here: http://tinyurl.com/2bo2ebt

Is it only the other side whose members engage in uncivil rhetoric? Here's a link that should convince any reasonable observer that IDC advocates do dish it out, too: http://antievolution.org/invcomp

Does the existence of uncivil IDC rhetoric also lead to the conclusion that their arguments have run out of steam? If not, why not?

The kwazy kiwi has responded.  I always love it when religiously dogmatic people dismiss anybody who isn't religiously dogmatic as being religiously dogmatic so as not to have to actually engage in any meaningful discourse.

Quote
Hi Wesley – thanks for visiting my blog.

I’m afraid I can’t take you seriously when you dogmatically claim an unreasonable statement like “IDC hasn’t ponied up [any] science yet”. This automatically puts you in the “religiously dogmatic” camp in my books and not worth wasting time engaging with.

Nevertheless, I tried to open that second link but it appears to be broken – can you check it please, I’m curious to see who is guilty of this. Thanks.



--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2010,11:31   

Go to Dillards!

Hey, check this out.  Isn't this the same shirt and tie that Dembski wore to the Hitchens debate?

Does Dr. Dr. only have one tie?

p.s.  Kwazy Kiwi provided a nice recent photo of our favorite Attack Gerbil.

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2010,20:34   

There is a new Luskin Gem up on Discovery Institute that has been linked to by bornagain77 on Hunter's blog.

I'm bored enough to start dissecting it.  My initial scan indicates its a Gish Gallop.

I will start at the with the first set of papers in bullet #1.  Is there anyone interested in helping me with other bullets?

 Does Intelligent Design Help Science Generate New Knowledge?

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2010,23:10   

Bullet #1    
Quote
- ID has inspired scientists to do research which has detected high levels of complex and specified information in biology in the form of fine-tuning of protein sequences. This has practical implications not just for explaining biological origins but also for engineering enzymes and anticipating / fighting the future evolution of diseases.
All the papers are from Douglas Axe who was named in the infamous Wedge Document.  The first two papers were among a list of “peer-reviewed papers” which supposedly supported Intelligent Design.  These two papers have been thoroughly reviewed by ID critics (e.g. link).  In short, the best case scenario for Axe is that he made a weak negative argument saying life is too complex and didn’t even acknowledge the possibility of an ID or design alternative.

In the third paper, the title says it all The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds.  It concludes with…            
Quote
Whichever way the matter is ultimately resolved, everyone with a genuine interest in science should agree that there is a scientific case against the neo-Darwinian explanation of biological origins, the arguments put forward here representing only a part of that case. Like all scientific cases, this one will be judged by the evidence, and the diversity of opinion as to the outcome is, on the whole, a good thing for science. For those who continue to think that protein origins can be explained within a broadly Darwinian framework, it should now be clear what lines of evidence stand in the way of that for the rest of us.
Ho Hum, just another ID argument claiming to have made “THE” case against Darwinian Evolution.  There is nothing here to “inspire” scientists.  There are no suggestions for other avenues to explore.  This is clearly a creationist argument against evolution.

The only “practical implications” of these three papers, especially the last one, is to suggest scientists are wasting their time.  What should they do? Go to church and pray for answers?

Bullet #2    
Quote
- ID has inspired scientists to seek and find instances of fine-tuning of the laws and constants of physics to allow for life, leading to a variety of fine-tuning arguments including the Galactic Habitable Zone. This has huge implications for proper cosmological models of the universe, hints at proper avenues for successful "theories of everything" which must accommodate fine-tuning, and other implications for theoretical physics.
The first paper, Refuges for Life in a Hostile Universe is a Scientific American article tailored to the mass market.  A more directly applicable paper would be The Galactic Habitable Zone I. Galactic Chemical Evolution Guillermo Gonzalez, Donald Brownlee, Peter Ward 2001

It's no mystery as to why Luskin didn't reference it.  If the title alone wasn't enough; it includes "In this paper we examine the dependence of the GHZ on Galactic chemical evolution."

The other paper referenced appears to be some engineers rediscovering what Newton and Kepler discovered long ago.

At best, any "inspiration" on this point is irrelevent to ID and/or is nothing new.

Bullet #3    
Quote
ID has inspired scientists to understand intelligence as a scientifically studyable cause of biological complexity, and to understand the types of information it generates.
The papers referenced are from ID loyalists making second-law-of-thermodynamics creationist arguments.  McIntosh is reported to have "...repeatedly said the world is only 6,000 years old." link

Creation Scientists argued essencially the same this-is-science assertion in Edwards v. Aguillard, the Supreme Court didn't buy it.  Without a doubt, this is probably the best argument creationists have, but it is still primarily a negative attack on evolution.

More inspiration for scientists to go to church for their answers?

Bullet #4
Quote
ID has inspired both experimental and theoretical research into how limitations on the ability of Darwinian evolution to evolve traits that require multiple mutations to function.

The Behe and Snoke paper says nothing at all in support of Intelligent Design.  Even so, the paper's assumptions and conclusion have been rebutted (Lynch 2005).

Ann K Gauger, Stephanie Ebnet, Pamela F Fahey, Ralph Seelke, "Reductive Evolution Can Prevent Populations from Taking Simple Adaptive Paths to High Fitness," Bio-Complexity, Vol. 2010).

-------

Blech, this is hard work.  Having to read through all the junk and cross checking everything.  I started to write a book and realize this is only one bullet so then I had to condense it.  No wonder you guys can be so grouchy at times.

BTW, I found Gishlick, Matzke, and Elsberry's Meyer's Hopeless Monster which I thought was very well written.  It included short summaries of Axe's paper.

I also liked Brayton's More DI Lies About Axe's Research

EDIT- Back to the grindstone (hate leaving things half finished)  working on bullet #4

I'm going to need help or a lot of time for this one.

Ann K Gauger, Stephanie Ebnet, Pamela F Fahey, Ralph Seelke, "Reductive Evolution Can Prevent Populations from Taking," Bio-Complexity, Vol. 2010).

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 30 2010,10:06   

Found this today.  You guys have probably read it, but here's the link:

Irreducible Incoherence

This is a well written article that describes exactly how Behe et. al. shift between definitions of IC to confuse the issue and prevent criticism.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 30 2010,12:51   

"Whichever way the matter is ultimately resolved, everyone with a genuine interest in science should agree that there is a scientific case against the neo-Darwinian explanation of biological origins, the arguments put forward here representing only a part of that case. "

Reminds me of that arrogant nonsense in the ReMine/Sanford 'MA' paper - what was it?  'Any reasonable person will conclude that our model falsifies neo-darwinism' or words to that effect....

  
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 30 2010,15:13   

Well slap me silly and call me Sally...I just discovered that the Disco Tute has an office right down the road from me! No joke. Here's a pic. At least this is the street view that corresponds to the address on their contact page.

Nice to see they clean your clothes while they dirty up your mind...

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3497
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 30 2010,21:09   

Quote (Robin @ Nov. 30 2010,13:13)
Well slap me silly and call me Sally...I just discovered that the Disco Tute has an office right down the road from me! No joke. Here's a pic. At least this is the street view that corresponds to the address on their contact page.

Nice to see they clean your clothes while they dirty up your mind...

3213 or 3216? That strip mall is 3216; 3213 would be across the street by the Baja Mexican Grill.

Edit map reading skills.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,08:59   

[quote=fnxtr,Nov. 30 2010,21:09][/quote]
Quote
Quote (Robin @ Nov. 30 2010,13:13)
Well slap me silly and call me Sally...I just discovered that the Disco Tute has an office right down the road from me! No joke. Here's a pic. At least this is the street view that corresponds to the address on their contact page.

Nice to see they clean your clothes while they dirty up your mind...

3213 or 3216? That strip mall is 3216; 3213 would be across the street by the Baja Mexican Grill.

Edit map reading skills.


The addy on the contact page is 3213, suite 812. I'll see if I can swing the camera around.


--------

Edit:

Not the best shot, but here it is. It's somewhere behind the tree, which for some reason seems appropriate to me.

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,10:19   

So we have addresses. Good.

Campaign of bombing? Anyone? No?

{Mutter, grumble}

I hate being the "good guys".

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
MadPanda, FCD



Posts: 267
Joined: Nov. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,11:30   

Leaflet bombing.  Demotivational posters.  Bumper stickers and tee shirts.  And if those doesn't work, we pull out the stops and surround them en masse singing Imagine off key to the plunking of improperly tuned guitars.

No?

Nuts.


The MadPanda, FCD

--------------
"No matter how ridiculous the internet tough guy, a thorough mocking is more effective than a swift kick to the gentleman vegetables with a hobnailed boot" --Louis

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,11:36   

Quote (Louis @ Dec. 01 2010,10:19)
So we have addresses. Good.

Campaign of bombing? Anyone? No?

{Mutter, grumble}

I hate being the "good guys".

Louis

That is an ironic post...

I suggest just finding the nearest billboard and putting up a sign that says something like

"Science works, bitch.  Why don't you ID people do any?"

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,11:50   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 01 2010,17:36)
Quote (Louis @ Dec. 01 2010,10:19)
So we have addresses. Good.

Campaign of bombing? Anyone? No?

{Mutter, grumble}

I hate being the "good guys".

Louis

That is an ironic post...

I suggest just finding the nearest billboard and putting up a sign that says something like

"Science works, bitch.  Why don't you ID people do any?"

Can't we just ban creationists of all stripes from benefitting from scientifically derived items?

At the very least it will make the internet a nicer place.

Louis (Tongue firmly in cheek)

--------------
Bye.

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 533
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,16:14   

Quote (Louis @ Dec. 01 2010,09:50)
 
Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 01 2010,17:36)

That is an ironic post...

I suggest just finding the nearest billboard and putting up a sign that says something like

"Science works, bitch.  Why don't you ID people do any?"

Can't we just ban creationists of all stripes from benefitting from scientifically derived items?

At the very least it will make the internet a nicer place.

Louis (Tongue firmly in cheek)

But I don't know what I'd do without my daily dose of mock.

ETA: That is a noun, innit?  If not, it should be.

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,17:22   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Dec. 01 2010,22:14)
Quote (Louis @ Dec. 01 2010,09:50)
   
Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 01 2010,17:36)

That is an ironic post...

I suggest just finding the nearest billboard and putting up a sign that says something like

"Science works, bitch.  Why don't you ID people do any?"

Can't we just ban creationists of all stripes from benefitting from scientifically derived items?

At the very least it will make the internet a nicer place.

Louis (Tongue firmly in cheek)

But I don't know what I'd do without my daily dose of mock.

ETA: That is a noun, innit?  If not, it should be.

You make a good point, but were I to answer the question for myself, particularly applicable to today, the answer would be "more work". Today has not been a good day.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,17:35   

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Dec. 01 2010,09:30)
Leaflet bombing.  Demotivational posters.  Bumper stickers and tee shirts.  And if those doesn't work, we pull out the stops and surround them en masse singing Imagine off key to the plunking of improperly tuned guitars.

No?

Nuts.


The MadPanda, FCD

Can we test the hypothesis that I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5452
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,18:46   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Nov. 19 2010,22:19)
I've been reading Mikey Behe's little whine over at Evo Snooze and is it only me or is Mikey starting to sound like JAD.

Hey, you evotards!  Get off my lawn!  How do you like them dingleberries?

It could be that Behe, like JAD, hasn't done science for so long that his imagination and reality have merged.  You showed 'em, Mikey, you was a real contendah!

I saw little Mikey Pantsonfire in person a few years ago.

It's not just you.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2010,17:50   

Casey Luskin has an orgasm.

Peer-Reviewed Research Paper on Plant Biology Favorably Cites Intelligent Design and Challenges Darwinian Evolution

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2010,19:51   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Dec. 29 2010,17:50)
Casey Luskin has an orgasm.

Peer-Reviewed Research Paper on Plant Biology Favorably Cites Intelligent Design and Challenges Darwinian Evolution

The paper Luskin is talking about can be found here. It cites, among others, Dembski, Meyer, Sanford, Axe, Behe, Berlinski, and Remine...

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
sparc



Posts: 2075
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2010,23:24   

afarensis:
Quote
It cites, among others, Dembski, Meyer, Sanford, Axe, Behe, Berlinski, and Remine...

In addition Lönnig again cites his own work published by the Naturwissenschaftlicher Verlag Köln. Of course he doesn't mention that this "publishing house" belongs to him and shares his postal address.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 2075
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2011,21:12   

These clowns seriously put a picture of Indiana Jones on their homepage to advertize Flannery's Wallace drivel.


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1100
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2011,21:54   

Quote (sparc @ Jan. 28 2011,21:12)
These clowns seriously put a picture of Indiana Jones on their homepage to advertize Flannery's Wallace drivel.

They couldn't find a photo of Madame Blavatsky?

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2011,05:27   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ Jan. 28 2011,21:54)
Quote (sparc @ Jan. 28 2011,21:12)
These clowns seriously put a picture of Indiana Jones on their homepage to advertize Flannery's Wallace drivel.

They couldn't find a photo of Madame Blavatsky?

Old Madame B has been a regular poster on ID related sites since the old days of Overwhelming Evidence. She seems to be an ID supporter...

Seems to be...

Madame B, PM me :)

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
sparc



Posts: 2075
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2011,03:43   

Max Andrew reports on "The C.S. Lewis Fellows Program on Science and Society" of the Discovery Institute's Summer Seminar on Intelligent Design. Unfortunately, he is not telling any details which should not be surprising since he is a theology student at Liberty University.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 2075
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2011,05:29   

Alan of Stand to Reason who joined the 2009 Discovery Institute's Summer Seminar on Intelligent Design was surprised when he saw the amount of material he received before the meeting.
According to the reading list the DI didn't include any material that could have been useful for teaching anything like a controversy.
The 2011 seminar has already been announced. Volunteers?

According to the picture the reading list consists of:

Books
M. Behe: Science and Evidence for Design in the Universe
J. West: Darwin Day in America
D.S. Goodsell: The Machinery of Life
W.A. Dembski: The Design Revolution
R. Stark: For the Glory of God
L. Smolin: Trouble with Physics
J.A. Campbel and S.C. Meyers (eds): Darwinism Design and Public Education
J. Wells: The Politcal Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design
R. Stannard: Relativity -  A very short introduction
J.C. Polkinghorne: Quantum Theory -  A very short introduction
S.C. Meyer, S. Minnich, J. Moneymaker, and P.A. Nelson: Explore Evolution
Source Packet for the Seminar on ID in the Natural Sciences
The Theory of Intelligent Design – A Briefing Packet for Educators

Articles
D. A. Axe, "Estimating the Prevalence of Protein Sequences Adopting Functional Enzyme Folds," Journal of Molecular Biology, Vol. 341 (2004): 1295-1315
(the other three articles in the picture cannot be identified)

DVDs
Unlocking the Mystery of Life
Icons of Evolution
The Priviledged Planet


Not too much biology.

(ETA for spelling mistakes)

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2011,10:12   

Wow!  Cutting edge science all the way!

UnICOrNs of Evolution. (Can't spell Unicorn without icons!)

For The Glory Of God (Science All The Way!!!111)

The Privileged Planet (Now outdated by the new privileged planet discoveries. Planets. Plural.)

But where oh where is Denyse's Spatula Brain?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2011,12:58   

Quote (sparc @ Feb. 13 2011,06:29)
Alan of Stand to Reason who joined the 2009 Discovery Institute's Summer Seminar on Intelligent Design was surprised when he saw the amount of material he received before the meeting.
According to the reading list the DI didn't include any material that could have been useful for teaching anything like a controversy.
The 2011 seminar has already been announced. Volunteers?

According to the picture the reading list consists of:

Books
M. Behe: Science and Evidence for Design in the Universe
J. West: Darwin Day in America
D.S. Goodsell: The Machinery of Life
W.A. Dembski: The Design Revolution
R. Stark: For the Glory of God
L. Smolin: Trouble with Physics
J.A. Campbel and S.C. Meyers (eds): Darwinism Design and Public Education
J. Wells: The Politcal Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design
R. Stannard: Relativity -  A very short introduction
J.C. Polkinghorne: Quantum Theory -  A very short introduction
S.C. Meyer, S. Minnich, J. Moneymaker, and P.A. Nelson: Explore Evolution
Source Packet for the Seminar on ID in the Natural Sciences
The Theory of Intelligent Design – A Briefing Packet for Educators

Articles
D. A. Axe, "Estimating the Prevalence of Protein Sequences Adopting Functional Enzyme Folds," Journal of Molecular Biology, Vol. 341 (2004): 1295-1315
(the other three articles in the picture cannot be identified)

DVDs
Unlocking the Mystery of Life
Icons of Evolution
The Priviledged Planet


Not too much biology.

(ETA for spelling mistakes)

That briefing packet list of favorable reviews is a study in quote mining.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Sol3a1



Posts: 110
Joined: July 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2011,13:41   

Quote (sparc @ Feb. 13 2011,05:29)

This part:
Quote
The Theory of Intelligent Design – A Briefing Packet for Educators
I actually printed off and I swear that is where of lot of the ID/YEC crowd is using for their "we have evidence that destroy Evilution" crap.

The quote mining in the document, well if it were to be used on anymore trapped Chilean miners, they won't be trapped in a few minutes.

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2011,08:51   

Heads up!

The comment section is open on Casey Luskin's article Lobbyists Resort to Myth Information Campaign on Academic Freedom Legislation. Let the fun begin.

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2011,08:57   

Careful, fire danger is high!

Giant field of strawmen.

They sets 'em up and they knocks 'em down.

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2011,09:11   

Quote (afarensis @ Dec. 30 2010,03:51)
Quote (Dr.GH @ Dec. 29 2010,17:50)
Casey Luskin has an orgasm.

Peer-Reviewed Research Paper on Plant Biology Favorably Cites Intelligent Design and Challenges Darwinian Evolution

The paper Luskin is talking about can be found here. It cites, among others, Dembski, Meyer, Sanford, Axe, Behe, Berlinski, and Remine...

Berlinski's other half seems to be missing from that list....

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2011,10:43   

Quote (olegt @ Feb. 23 2011,08:51)
Heads up!

The comment section is open on Casey Luskin's article Lobbyists Resort to Myth Information Campaign on Academic Freedom Legislation. Let the fun begin.

We'll see how well Casey and Bill's Nixplanatory Filter seperates and deals with the comments of "real" IDCists, Poes and Puppets.

Stay tuned for what I suspect will be a fun blend of all three.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2011,13:44   

Anyone betting that any critical comments will appear at all?

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2011,13:51   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Feb. 23 2011,13:44)
Anyone betting that any critical comments will appear at all?

I have dropped in several times today, and there are no comments of any kind.  Rather surprising that Lacey Buskin hasn't even posted her usual plaudits and roses for Casey.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2011,15:09   

http://www.evolutionnews.org/comment-policy.html

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2011,16:44   

Meh....let the creepy bastard hear the crickets chirping. Not unlike Mullings over at UD theres something satisfying about IDiots penning page after page of drivel and attracting zero response for their efforts.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2011,12:14   

Friends!  Do you have an old, unloved and unwanted and perhaps banned by UD Sock Puppet? * Well...

NOW IS THE TIME to do a little spring cleaning, and restore all the lustor and charm that your puppet once exhibited!  You can do it for science, and it will cost everybody's favorite waste of money - The Discovery Institute - even more money to try and get money out of you - as they will mail you expensive requests for money at least 4-6 times a year.  

And Now It's Here!

My Brand New DI Spring 2011 Begging For Money Mailer!

Onlookers, I URGE you all to get your puppet(s) to get signed up on the DI mailing list ASAP.  Even though they have big money backers, and a laughable, and probably illegal non-profit tax ID #, the DI still has to pay someone to run off the 4-color shiney paper crapola supreme Lying For Jesus mailings that they send out.

So sign up now and you can get your very own C.S. Lewis Fellow Program mailer, and your very own 2011 Summer Seminar on ID!  DO IT NOW!

Make the D I spend their money uselessly.  It's the least you can do.

So go to their website, sign your puppet up, and have that lovely expensive mail sent to either your address, or that of a local favorite sports team or funeral parlor.  



* this is so obviously a joke, so shut up about it Casey.  Nobody here would ever, ever, ever, ever, do anything as crass, childish and as much fun as to actually do this.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,08:07   

Hey, John West!

It's not always about you or the DI.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,10:13   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 23 2011,16:07)
Hey, John West!

It's not always about you or the DI.

HEY I'M OFFENDED "shoddy ensemble"  INDEED?

WHY WASTE A PERFECTLY GOOD BOUQUET LIKE THAT ON THOSE SNIVELLING SCIENTIFIC DEFICIT ZEALOTS OVER AT THE DI?

NEXT TIME THINK OF US!!

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2011,01:52   

Dr Egnor re-invents egnorance.
from the start:
Quote
Turing, a mathematician and a pioneer in computer science, proposed that it would someday be possible for a sufficiently advanced computer to think and to have some form of consciousness.

from the Wikipedia article Egnor references from the start:
Quote
Rather than trying to determine if a machine is thinking, Turing suggests we should ask if the machine can win a game, called the "Imitation Game".

Quote
Turing is no longer asking whether a machine can "think"; he is asking whether a machine can act indistinguishably [6] from the way a thinker acts.

Egnor at the end:
Quote
The Turing test is a test of whether human beings have succumbed to the astonishingly naive hubris that we can create souls.

It's such irony that the first personal computer was an Apple.

same Wiki article, under section 'Nine common objections':
Quote
"In attempting to construct such machines," wrote Turing, "we should not be irreverently usurping His power of creating souls, any more than we are in the procreation of children: rather we are, in either case, instruments of His will providing mansions for the souls that He creates."

(full text of Turing's paper 'Computing Machinery and Intelligence')
and the first personal computer? Columbia Univ says the IBM 610 Auto-Point Computer (1957), others say the Altair 8800 (1971)

I declare IRONY FAIL!

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2011,10:44   

Quote
Turing is no longer asking whether a machine can "think"; he is asking whether a machine can act indistinguishably [6] from the way a thinker acts.

Um. And does he make any suggestion as to how else one figures out if a machine (or a person, for that matter), is thinking, other that simply by what problems it can solve or at least address?

On second thought, never mind.

Henry

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2011,11:07   

Quote (Henry J @ April 01 2011,10:44)
Quote
Turing is no longer asking whether a machine can "think"; he is asking whether a machine can act indistinguishably [6] from the way a thinker acts.

Um. And does he make any suggestion as to how else one figures out if a machine (or a person, for that matter), is thinking, other that simply by what problems it can solve or at least address?

On second thought, never mind.

Henry

Weigh the computer while it is running, then turn it off and weigh it again.  If it weighs less when it is off, then it has a soul, and therefore is actually thinking.  Simple, really!

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2011,11:10   

That doesn't compute!

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2011,13:42   

If it weighs less than a duck, it's a witch.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2011,22:30   

Quote (Henry J @ April 01 2011,11:10)
That doesn't compute!

I have this image of a broken Dalek, spewing smoke and sparks, with "UD" on it, repeating endlessly "InTardiate" (or would "IDTardiate" be a better fit).

Sorry, just came to mind.

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2011,08:20   

Quote (Badger3k @ April 01 2011,22:30)
Quote (Henry J @ April 01 2011,11:10)
That doesn't compute!

I have this image of a broken Dalek, spewing smoke and sparks, with "UD" on it, repeating endlessly "InTardiate" (or would "IDTardiate" be a better fit).

Sorry, just came to mind.

Or the Dalek saying "Expellllllled!" or "Endodgenate!"

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2011,08:35   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ April 02 2011,16:20)
Quote (Badger3k @ April 01 2011,22:30)
 
Quote (Henry J @ April 01 2011,11:10)
That doesn't compute!

I have this image of a broken Dalek, spewing smoke and sparks, with "UD" on it, repeating endlessly "InTardiate" (or would "IDTardiate" be a better fit).

Sorry, just came to mind.

Or the Dalek saying "Expellllllled!" or "Endodgenate!"

GILL-DAGINATARR!!
GILL-DANGINATRR!!

Next to Vogon poetry he is nothing.

ETA edited for DALEKS

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2011,19:49   

Have you caught this one yet?

Quote
Now there's nothing wrong with marketing ideas--in fact, the intelligent design community, of which I'm a part, has done quite a bit of this and quite successfully. William A. Dembski, April 27, 2011


And what else have you assholes done besides marketing?

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2082
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2011,21:31   

Quote (Dr.GH @ May 03 2011,19:49)
Have you caught this one yet?

Quote
Now there's nothing wrong with marketing ideas--in fact, the intelligent design community, of which I'm a part, has done quite a bit of this and quite successfully. William A. Dembski, April 27, 2011


And what else have you assholes done besides marketing?

Technical advances in the field of farty-noises?

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2011,21:32   

Does that make them used argument salesmen?

Henry

  
noncarborundum



Posts: 320
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2011,18:50   

Quote (Texas Teach @ May 03 2011,21:31)
Quote (Dr.GH @ May 03 2011,19:49)
Have you caught this one yet?

 
Quote
Now there's nothing wrong with marketing ideas--in fact, the intelligent design community, of which I'm a part, has done quite a bit of this and quite successfully. William A. Dembski, April 27, 2011


And what else have you assholes done besides marketing?

Technical advances in the field of farty-noises?

Not an unexpected outcome when you're dealing with assholes.

--------------
"The . . . um . . . okay, I was genetically selected for blue eyes.  I know there are brown eyes, because I've observed them, but I can't do it.  Okay?  So . . . um . . . coz that's real genetic selection, not the nonsense Giberson and the others are talking about." - DO'L

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2011,19:06   

Quote (Henry J @ May 03 2011,21:32)
Does that make them used argument salesmen?

Henry

It makes them used-argument salesmen. :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 06 2011,10:42   

Well, just so long as they're not de-hyphenated...

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2011,10:19   

I guess Discovery doesn't pay its program directors well. Stephen Meyer is doing apologetics on the side.

Is the Bible Reliable?
 
Quote
The Bible is so reliable in its reporting of all these classes of evidence... Hey, maybe we should rely on the Bible as a source of information about this period of time.


From the publisher's product description:
Quote
This second set in the life-changing DVD series asks, "Is the Bible reliable?" Again, proven facts and insights from philosophy, cosmology and biology will help you engage intellectually with professors and peers, both in and outside of the classroom. For centuries, intellectuals and critics alike have questioned inconsistencies. Dr. Meyer examines ancient texts and archeological evidence to build a compelling case for the accuracy of Scripture - and why the Bible is more trustworthy than ever.


--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2011,10:33   

MOAR apologetics with Stephen Meyer:
Does God exist?

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
fseoer2010



Posts: 1
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: June 29 2011,01:22   

I notice this subject is not getting any air time over on Dembski's cult of conformity network.

--------------
We are an online outlet selling Mbts shoes and straightening irons.Find cheap mbt shoe,Nfljerseys here.

    
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2013,19:46   

It seems that Stephen Meyer has got a new book coming out, this time disproving evolution, er, proving ID because of Cambrian Explosion! The DI made the mistake of asking an assistant professor of geology for permission to use one of his photographs taken at the Burgess Shale. The response is fantastic; see it here (or go via RationalWiki, as I did).

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.†We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.â€
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2013,12:13   

Ptaylor - EXCELLENT!!!!  That guy is my new hero!  I recommend all of you click and read the link - funny funny stuff, and much sorrow and gnashing of DI Teeth!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2013,19:19   

What J-Dog said! That was funny as hell!

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2013,20:49   

my fave part is the end of his first email:

Quote
Best wishes for your good health, and the speedy demise of the sham institution that employs you.
__
Callan Bentley

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2013,20:56   

I also liked his statement about the "sad impotency of [IDC]" in the comments.

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2013,15:04   

It struck me during this discussion that none of the Tooters have ever visited their Shrine of the Burgess Shale.  How come Meyer doesn't have his own set of pictures?  Or Luskin? Or any of the Tooters?  How come they yak, yak, yak all about the Burgess Shale but they've never been there?

Granted, it's not a walk in the woods, oh, wait, yes it is.

Treks to the Shale are park-guide hikes only and you may have to book a year in advance to get the day you want.  The maximum crew size is 12.  I lucked out and filled in for a last-minute cancellation and made the hike a few years ago.  Check it out.


Here's why the Tooters will balk at the Shrine:  it's hard work.  Six miles one way with an elevation change of 2400 feet.  The first part of the trip is up the side of a mountain via muddy, root-infested, slippery switchbacks.  Every step is up.  Takes six hours of hiking to get to the quarry with the final 200 yards or so up a steep, treeless scree slope.  You carry your own water, lunch and any other gear.  I carried 2 liters of water and should have carried 3!  I was parched by the time we got back to the parking lot.

You spend about an hour at the quarry until it's time to go home.  Return trip, all downhill, takes about four hours.

Everybody in our crew was an experienced hiker.  Our ranger told us he does 4-5 treks per week and I think he could probably jog the entire distance.  

I remember seeing Emerald Lake from the Shale but didn't get a picture of it.  I was too occupied sweating, willing my legs to move and breathing.  Several years ago, though, we stayed at the Emerald Lake Lodge and had a room that overlooked the Shale.  Right on schedule I observed through binoculars a crew arrive at the Shale for their exploration.  I didn't see Meyer in the crew, but, then again, I wasn't surprised!  He's a lazy bastard in addition to being a lying dog.

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2013,15:56   

Hey Doc, did you find any rabbit fossils when you were there?  ;)

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
rossum



Posts: 287
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2013,16:22   

Quote (The whole truth @ Feb. 17 2013,15:56)
Hey Doc, did you find any rabbit fossils when you were there?  ;)

Of course he did.  Darwinists only go there to pick out all the rabbit fossils and move then to some later strata.  We wouldn't want the DI people to find them now, would we?

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The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2013,16:41   

Quote (The whole truth @ Feb. 17 2013,15:56)
Hey Doc, did you find any rabbit fossils when you were there?  ;)

OMG, the Tooters have scooped me with a

video of Meyer at the Shale!


Who knew?!?!?!?

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2013,17:02   

Quote (rossum @ Feb. 17 2013,14:22)
Quote (The whole truth @ Feb. 17 2013,15:56)
Hey Doc, did you find any rabbit fossils when you were there?  ;)

Of course he did.  Darwinists only go there to pick out all the rabbit fossils and move then to some later strata.  We wouldn't want the DI people to find them now, would we?

Aha! So THAT'S why the DI people can't find any Cambrian rabbit fossils.

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2013,17:03   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 17 2013,14:41)
Quote (The whole truth @ Feb. 17 2013,15:56)
Hey Doc, did you find any rabbit fossils when you were there?  ;)

OMG, the Tooters have scooped me with a

video of Meyer at the Shale!


Who knew?!?!?!?

LMAO!

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2013,17:42   

Quote
(rossum @ Feb. 17 2013,14:22)
Quote
(The whole truth @ Feb. 17 2013,15:56)
Hey Doc, did you find any rabbit fossils when you were there???;)

Of course he did.??Darwinists only go there to pick out all the rabbit fossils and move then to some later strata.??We wouldn't want the DI people to find them now, would we?

Oh, a receding hare line, huh? :p

  
sparc



Posts: 2075
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2013,23:35   

EN&V: ID wins because 13 articles about molecular machines and molecuar clocks don't mention Darwin.
Like in the third cited paper on centrioles (which actually ignores Jonathan Wells's groundbreaking work):
     
Quote
The conserved meiosis-specific
HORMA domain proteins are components of specialized chromosomal structures known as axial elements that assemble along the lengths of sister chromatid pairs during meiotic prophase I (12).

Like the abstract of the Nature article to which the Science Daily report they cite links:      
Quote
We define a molecular mechanism that ensures asymmetric assembly, and we conclude that the basic architecture of SMC–kleisin rings evolved before the emergence of eukaryotes.

Like the PNAS article to which the Phys.Org report they cite links:      
Quote
By studying vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV), we identify the large ribosomal subunit protein rpL40 as requisite for VSV cap-dependent translation but not bulk cellular or internal ribosome entry site–driven translation. This requirement is conserved amongmembers of the orderMononegavirales, including measles virus and rabies virus.

Like the second PLOS article they mention:      
Quote
The circadian clock has evolved in response to daily changes in temperature and light in the environment.

And finally like Bruce Alberts who they name as their Anti-ID witness:      
Quote
And to what extent has the design of presentday
protein machines been constrained by the long evolutionary
pathway through which the function evolved, rather than being optimally engineered for the function at hand? [...] At least for protein synthesis on the ribosome, the evolutionary history—dating back to an “RNA world”—is
thought to have played a predominant role (Green and Noller, 1997; Wilson and Noller, 1998 [this issue]). [...] those present-day reactions that evolved early in the history of life on the earth (like protein synthesis) should have originated in a cell dominated by RNA catalysis; these reactions might therefore remain relatively inefficient, due to constraints traceable to their evolutionary history. In contrast, those present-day reactions that evolved later (like DNA replication), in a cell dominated by protein catalysis, could be expected to be much more efficient (Alberts, 1986).


ETA:
Whom do they want to fool? Are they really unaware that evolution theory penetrates any filed of biology and thus is implicit in the majority of biological publications.
But what would one expect from guys who thaught deleting "creation" from "Of Pandas and People" would suffice to convince Judge Jones.

Edited by sparc on Feb. 19 2013,02:14

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2013,04:20   

Haven't had a smile on my face all day until now; what a welcome relief from that other thread! Thanks.

Edit typo.

Edited by Quack on Feb. 19 2013,04:22

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2013,08:23   

Yeah, the articles don't mention Copernicus, either and it's his birthday!

How sad.

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2013,13:58   

Over at UD, Gregory the lonesome rider has a showdown with PeterJ:
Quote
I went to the Discovery Institute’s Summer Program, where it claims to be teaching the next generation to become ‘IDists’ and was highly disappointed. Meyer was there and couldn’t answer simple questions from the ‘next generation’. Why should young people compromise ‘natural science’ with IDist ideology?

ID leaders are far, far weaker and more insignificant (when you meet them in person and speak to them) than you folks will even consider is possible. That is because many people here *want* to be part of an American movement.


http://tinyurl.com/cqf3vl3....cqf3vl3

I like Gregory; he perceives some of ID's flaws and openly calls it what it is, ideology and politics. Being British, he couldn't care less about the implications wrt the education system in the USA.

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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5286
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2013,14:32   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ April 22 2013,13:58)
Over at UD, Gregory the lonesome rider has a showdown with PeterJ:  
Quote
I went to the Discovery Institute’s Summer Program, where it claims to be teaching the next generation to become ‘IDists’ and was highly disappointed. Meyer was there and couldn’t answer simple questions from the ‘next generation’. Why should young people compromise ‘natural science’ with IDist ideology?

ID leaders are far, far weaker and more insignificant (when you meet them in person and speak to them) than you folks will even consider is possible. That is because many people here *want* to be part of an American movement.


http://tinyurl.com/cqf3vl3....cqf3vl3

I like Gregory; he perceives some of ID's flaws and openly calls it what it is, ideology and politics. Being British, he couldn't care less about the implications wrt the education system in the USA.

Over/under on Gregory's bannination - 3 days.

Place yer bets.

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2013,14:35   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ April 22 2013,14:32)
Quote (Kattarina98 @ April 22 2013,13:58)
Over at UD, Gregory the lonesome rider has a showdown with PeterJ:    
Quote
I went to the Discovery Institute’s Summer Program, where it claims to be teaching the next generation to become ‘IDists’ and was highly disappointed. Meyer was there and couldn’t answer simple questions from the ‘next generation’. Why should young people compromise ‘natural science’ with IDist ideology?

ID leaders are far, far weaker and more insignificant (when you meet them in person and speak to them) than you folks will even consider is possible. That is because many people here *want* to be part of an American movement.


http://tinyurl.com/cqf3vl3....cqf3vl3

I like Gregory; he perceives some of ID's flaws and openly calls it what it is, ideology and politics. Being British, he couldn't care less about the implications wrt the education system in the USA.

Over/under on Gregory's bannination - 3 days.

Place yer bets.

My bet: already threatened with Mr Leathers, ban Apr 23, 3:00 pm.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2013,14:38   

My bet: Not openly banned but sent to the limbo of moderation.

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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2013,14:42   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ April 22 2013,14:38)
My bet: Not openly banned but sent to the limbo of moderation.

Maybe he'll try again at TSZ. I was disappointed that he started a discussion and abandoned it. If he looks at this he should know that the login at TSZ has been tightened up and it has nothing to do with him.

It's a Wordpress thing.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2013,15:07   

Gregory is edging closer to the abyss by divulging secrets from the DI's inner sanctum:  
Quote
The Discovery Institute doesn’t publish the names of its supposed ‘next generation’ scholars, i.e. its summer program students. It tells students, on the first night, to intentionally hide their identities, to use pseudonyms, to pretend that they are someone else if they want to be taken seriously. Stephen C. Meyer is part of this planned trickery. PeterJ might have graduated from kindergarten but most likely didn’t finish high school if one measures the relevance of his posts. Yet he has the nerve to yell against accredited scholars who reject IDT. Why? Simply because they reject IDT and because PeterJ has gullibly become an IDist. This is one of the most sickening examples at Uncommon Descent – no willingness to deal with arguments and only a demonstrated desire to attack persons.

If IDists think that most scholars actually assess themselves according to IDist ideology, they are only fooling themselves. So I’m a ‘bad commenter’ on the ‘scale’ of PeterJ. So what? That’s like telling me that my orange juice is sour according to someone who’s never seen or tasted an orange. Not a credible judge.

He won't last much longer.

My bolding

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2013,15:24   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ April 22 2013,13:07)
Gregory is edging closer to the abyss by divulging secrets from the DI's inner sanctum:    
Quote
The Discovery Institute doesn’t publish the names of its supposed ‘next generation’ scholars, i.e. its summer program students. It tells students, on the first night, to intentionally hide their identities, to use pseudonyms, to pretend that they are someone else if they want to be taken seriously. Stephen C. Meyer is part of this planned trickery. PeterJ might have graduated from kindergarten but most likely didn’t finish high school if one measures the relevance of his posts. Yet he has the nerve to yell against accredited scholars who reject IDT. Why? Simply because they reject IDT and because PeterJ has gullibly become an IDist. This is one of the most sickening examples at Uncommon Descent – no willingness to deal with arguments and only a demonstrated desire to attack persons.

If IDists think that most scholars actually assess themselves according to IDist ideology, they are only fooling themselves. So I’m a ‘bad commenter’ on the ‘scale’ of PeterJ. So what? That’s like telling me that my orange juice is sour according to someone who’s never seen or tasted an orange. Not a credible judge.

He won't last much longer.

My bolding

Brilliant - two benefits in one.  Generates an atmosphere of paranoia and persecution among the punters, and prevents the rest of us from seeing what the "scholars" are studying, and where they're studying it.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Kantian Naturalist



Posts: 72
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2013,15:50   

One of the interesting things about Gregory is how deeply he's been influenced by Steve Fuller.  Fuller is an American sociologist of science who teaches at the University of Warwick.  Fuller considers the strict division of "church" and "state" to be a feature of the American political system that ought to have no bearing on intelligent design.  Rather, on his view, there is no scientific objection to just biting the bullet and saying that biology is divine technology.

Gregory seems to have taken this to heart in a very odd way -- he thinks that intelligent design ought to be a comprehensive metaphysical system, rather than an empirical scientific theory.  (That's what he was getting at in trying to distinguish between "big ID" and "small id."  Gifted with words, he is not.)  

But, unfortunately for Gregory, the entire design movement is premised upon a contradiction -- the cultural-political movement wants to blur the boundary between science and metaphysics, but the epistemic authority of the theory requires a very sharp distinction between science and metaphysics.  

Some of them will insist on a distinction between "the content of the theory" and "what the theory implies" or "what the theory might imply".  But this simply collapses, on closer inspection.  Firstly, no scientific theory has implications which go beyond the boundaries of the theory itself.  A theory just *is* a set of sentences and the implications between them.  So anything implied by those sentences just is part of the theory itself.  Secondly, there are no "possible implications" -- if one sentence implies another, then it does (and, according to some philosophers, does so *necessarily*).  

If they wanted to maintain a strict line between science and metaphysics, then they'd have to say something like, "here's this metaphysical view which has it's own <I>a priori</I> basis, and here's this scientific theory which has its own <I>a posteriori</I> basis, and they sort of line up with one another".   It's a much weaker relation than any sort of implication, and much more like mere association -- and association has an epistemic authority of fuck-all.  (One nice thing about AFBC -- I can curse all I want!)  

They want this to be "just about the science" ("following the evidence wherever it leads"), and they want this to be a culture-war fight for the soul of Western civilization, but they can't have it both ways, and they don't like being told so.

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2013,16:20   

Some months ago, there was a lengthy discussion about Fuller's ideas over at UD which I found very interesting. Of course Gregory didn't succeed in convincing the denizens.
Did you read it?

As for swearing, just wait until k.e. imitates Dave Scot, all caps, starting with "HOMO!!!"

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 23 2013,01:33   

I think this deserves a mention here - a post titled The Discovery Institute's mask just slipped a little more over at Pharyngula. It features a video clip with Dr Stephen Meyers, yes that one, acting as a college lecturer in a style reminiscent of Expelled. It's less than two minutes long, but chock full of  nifty one liners - my favourite: "Actually new atheism is old atheism repackaged to make best sellers". Not a charge that could be leveled against you and intelligent design, eh, Dr Meyers?

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We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.†We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.â€
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 23 2013,01:43   

Quote (Ptaylor @ April 23 2013,01:33)
I think this deserves a mention here - a post titled The Discovery Institute's mask just slipped a little more over at Pharyngula. It features a video clip with Dr Stephen Meyers, yes that one, acting as a college lecturer in a style reminiscent of Expelled. It's less than two minutes long, but chock full of  nifty one liners - my favourite: "Actually new atheism is old atheism repackaged to make best sellers". Not a charge that could be leveled against you and intelligent design, eh, Dr Meyers?

I tend to place atheism in league with solipsism, hard to sell.

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 23 2013,01:51   

Quote (Ptaylor @ April 22 2013,23:33)
I think this deserves a mention here - a post titled The Discovery Institute's mask just slipped a little more over at Pharyngula. It features a video clip with Dr Stephen Meyers, yes that one, acting as a college lecturer in a style reminiscent of Expelled. It's less than two minutes long, but chock full of  nifty one liners - my favourite: "Actually new atheism is old atheism repackaged to make best sellers". Not a charge that could be leveled against you and intelligent design, eh, Dr Meyers?

Sung to the tune of the Oscar Mayer wiener song:


I'm glad I'm not a stephen meyer whiner, that is what I'd truly hate to be
and if I were a stephen meyer whiner, everyone would know I'm a cry-ba-by

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 23 2013,02:06   

Quote (Quack @ April 22 2013,23:43)
Quote (Ptaylor @ April 23 2013,01:33)
I think this deserves a mention here - a post titled The Discovery Institute's mask just slipped a little more over at Pharyngula. It features a video clip with Dr Stephen Meyers, yes that one, acting as a college lecturer in a style reminiscent of Expelled. It's less than two minutes long, but chock full of  nifty one liners - my favourite: "Actually new atheism is old atheism repackaged to make best sellers". Not a charge that could be leveled against you and intelligent design, eh, Dr Meyers?

I tend to place atheism in league with solipsism, hard to sell.

Yeah, promises of forgiveness, healing, protection, answered prayers, the love of 'God', and an afterlife in a heavenly paradise make for a much more lucrative sales pitch, especially when combined with threats of a miserable life and eternal torment in a lake of fire if you don't buy the snake oil.

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Arctodus23



Posts: 322
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 26 2013,16:05   

Quote (Ptaylor @ April 23 2013,01:33)
I think this deserves a mention here - a post titled The Discovery Institute's mask just slipped a little more over at Pharyngula. It features a video clip with Dr Stephen Meyers, yes that one, acting as a college lecturer in a style reminiscent of Expelled. It's less than two minutes long, but chock full of  nifty one liners - my favourite: "Actually new atheism is old atheism repackaged to make best sellers". Not a charge that could be leveled against you and intelligent design, eh, Dr Meyers?

Shouldn't the DI stop lying. Cdesign propensists, the wedge, now that, has greatly diminished ID to creationism. Stop lying DIdiots.

--------------
"At our church’s funerals, we sing gospel songs (out loud) to God." -- FL

"So the center of the earth being hotter than the surface is a "gross
violation of the second law of thermodynamics??" -- Ted Holden

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11177
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 26 2013,16:56   

Quote (Arctodus23 @ April 26 2013,16:05)
Quote (Ptaylor @ April 23 2013,01:33)
I think this deserves a mention here - a post titled The Discovery Institute's mask just slipped a little more over at Pharyngula. It features a video clip with Dr Stephen Meyers, yes that one, acting as a college lecturer in a style reminiscent of Expelled. It's less than two minutes long, but chock full of  nifty one liners - my favourite: "Actually new atheism is old atheism repackaged to make best sellers". Not a charge that could be leveled against you and intelligent design, eh, Dr Meyers?

Shouldn't the DI stop lying. Cdesign propensists, the wedge, now that, has greatly diminished ID to creationism. Stop lying DIdiots.

evidence for a designer - his undershirt turns from white to red half way through...

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arctodus23



Posts: 322
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: April 26 2013,19:32   

More education nonsense

--------------
"At our church’s funerals, we sing gospel songs (out loud) to God." -- FL

"So the center of the earth being hotter than the surface is a "gross
violation of the second law of thermodynamics??" -- Ted Holden

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2013,14:52   

Casey Luskin is really annoyed that American law students are learning that IDC lost in the Kitzmiller case in 2005.

Towards the end, Casey notes his source rooting IDC in William Paley's arguments in "natural theology". Casey doesn't like that one little bit.

 
Quote

This is "the 'intelligent design theory'"? Really? Nothing more than how "Paley thereby attempts to explain the creation as the work of God, the watchmaker"? No mention of any modern ID theorists, such as those who have lived in the past 100 years? No mention of irreducible complexity or specified complexity? Just Paley -- and nothing more.


Maybe Casey hasn't read the Rev. Paley's 1802 book, "Natural Theology". I have. The four major IDC arguments are plainly derived from and, in my opinion, are simply elaborations of Paley's arguments. Those include "irreducible complexity", "specified complexity", anthropic principles, and the "privileged planet" arguments. "Modern ID theorists" are gilding Paley, nothing more. They write more words in a more obfuscated way, but they don't deliver anything beyond what Paley did. And I don't see the problem with characterizing IDC as neo-Paleyism. It is certainly more accurate than what Casey wants to offer.

If Casey wants to argue that IDC is different from creationism, maybe he should try to find some difference in  the arguments that get used. I sure don't see any.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2013,15:05   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 02 2013,12:52)
Casey Luskin is really annoyed that American law students are learning that IDC lost in the Kitzmiller case in 2005.

Towards the end, Casey notes his source rooting IDC in William Paley's arguments in "natural theology". Casey doesn't like that one little bit.

   
Quote

This is "the 'intelligent design theory'"? Really? Nothing more than how "Paley thereby attempts to explain the creation as the work of God, the watchmaker"? No mention of any modern ID theorists, such as those who have lived in the past 100 years? No mention of irreducible complexity or specified complexity? Just Paley -- and nothing more.


Maybe Casey hasn't read the Rev. Paley's 1802 book, "Natural Theology". I have. The four major IDC arguments are plainly derived from and, in my opinion, are simply elaborations of Paley's arguments. Those include "irreducible complexity", "specified complexity", anthropic principles, and the "privileged planet" arguments. "Modern ID theorists" are gilding Paley, nothing more. They write more words in a more obfuscated way, but they don't deliver anything beyond what Paley did. And I don't see the problem with characterizing IDC as neo-Paleyism. It is certainly more accurate than what Casey wants to offer.

If Casey wants to argue that IDC is different from creationism, maybe he should try to find some difference in  the arguments that get used. I sure don't see any.

Paley's outmoded, Dr E.  No-one in (what remains of) the ID movement has used the watch analogy for ages and ages.  A full nine days, in fact.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2013,17:17   

Paley's book is a pretty good read. Much better than any subsequent spinoffs.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5760
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2013,22:43   

Wasn't Paley's book written before the contrary data was known?

Henry

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2324
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2013,12:00   

Quote (Henry J @ May 02 2013,20:43)
Wasn't Paley's book written before the contrary data was known?

Henry

It was required reading when C. Darwin was a student. He wrote that he was totally convinced by Paley, and could quote much of the book from memory.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2013,15:42   

Another piece from Luskin's screed relies on Jonathan Witt:

     
Quote

Even if early editions of Pandas had embraced "creationism" in the way alleged by Judge Jones, the removal of creationist terminology should have protected Pandas, not rendered the textbook unconstitutional. While there are no canons of textbook interpretation, traditional rules for statutory interpretation suggest that language removed from an earlier draft of a statute should be understood as a rejection of that language. This form of reasoning is common among scholars of constitutional law, who refer to language rejected from drafts of constitutional amendments in order to determine what was not the intent of the Framers. Had Judge Jones fairly applied such a canon of construction to Pandas, Thaxton's exclusion of the word "creation" should have been properly understood by Judge Jones as a rejection of some aspect of creationism.


This is multi-level nonsense. We aren't interpreting legislation as a result of process involving possibly adversarial factions participating in edits here; we are looking at a book produced privately by known staunch advocates of antievolution. We already have a Supreme Court decision saying that the introduction of "creation science" into school classrooms was a "sham", so courts should be on notice to be watching out for such, which is another good reason not to adopt an eccentric and plainly inappropriate approach to analysis. There was mostly search and replace, not removal. The effect of the word changes did not repudiate any concepts delineated in the earlier drafts, it just changed what labels were applied to the concepts.

Of course, Witt's commentary is exactly what one should expect of someone engaged in a sham who is being called on it.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2013,15:53   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 03 2013,13:42)
Another piece from Luskin's screed relies on Jonathan Witt:

     
Quote

Even if early editions of Pandas had embraced "creationism" in the way alleged by Judge Jones, the removal of creationist terminology should have protected Pandas, not rendered the textbook unconstitutional. While there are no canons of textbook interpretation, traditional rules for statutory interpretation suggest that language removed from an earlier draft of a statute should be understood as a rejection of that language. This form of reasoning is common among scholars of constitutional law, who refer to language rejected from drafts of constitutional amendments in order to determine what was not the intent of the Framers. Had Judge Jones fairly applied such a canon of construction to Pandas, Thaxton's exclusion of the word "creation" should have been properly understood by Judge Jones as a rejection of some aspect of creationism.


This is multi-level nonsense. We aren't interpreting legislation as a result of process involving possibly adversarial factions participating in edits here; we are looking at a book produced privately by known staunch advocates of antievolution. We already have a Supreme Court decision saying that the introduction of "creation science" into school classrooms was a "sham", so courts should be on notice to be watching out for such, which is another good reason not to adopt an eccentric and plainly inappropriate approach to analysis. There was mostly search and replace, not removal. The effect of the word changes did not repudiate any concepts delineated in the earlier drafts, it just changed what labels were applied to the concepts.

Of course, Witt's commentary is exactly what one should expect of someone engaged in a sham who is being called on it.

Quote
Had Judge Jones fairly applied such a canon of construction to Pandas, Thaxton's exclusion of the word "creation" should have been properly understood by Judge Jones as a rejection of some aspect of creationism.

"Creationist" was replaced with "design proponent" throughout the entire book, without any other substantive changes being made.  I wonder: what aspect of creationism would Witt claim was being rejected?  Other than the "illegal to teach in public school science" aspect, of course...

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3497
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2013,18:16   

It's exegesis all the way down.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 04 2013,13:30   

Has Witt ever seen the drafts? It seems unlikely. The court ordered the drafts be kept confidential, and it was a pretty tight list of signatories on that. So anything Witt says about changes in the drafts should be read as being in the highly-speculative-completely-ignorant tense, at least until he develops some substantiation that there is actually some knowledge of the material on his part.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2013,17:50   

The DI has a new 'curriculum':
 
Quote
It's brand new and launching today! Discovering Intelligent Design (DID) is the first full curriculum to present the scientific evidence for intelligent design in both cosmology and biology in an easy-to-understand format.

DI link
The authors are husband and wife team Gary and Hallie Kemper (Hallie is a homeschooler, Gary has, uh, "learned the craft of writing"), and yes! - Casey Luskin.
From the DI site:
 
Quote
Who can use DID? In a word (or two), most anyone. While best classified as a textbook, DID reads like a book and is intended for a wide range of ages -- from middle-schoolers to adult -- in settings such as private schools, a general family and home setting, homeschool, church environments, small discussion groups, extracurricular school organizations (such as IDEA Clubs), or personal use. When used as a textbook, DID is not intended to replace standard subject science texts, but instead can supplement them by presenting information not available in many standard textbooks. While DID is strictly scientific in its content, it is not recommended for use in public schools.

Gotta love that last sentence!
There's a nice take on it over at The Sensuous Curmudgeon.

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We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.†We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.â€
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2013,21:36   

Not one to shy away from being a fucking bitch, I went after the Kemper's, the authors of this stinking piece of shit.

No credentials, of course.  No indication that the Kemper's even finished college.  Mr. Kemper did a stint as some kind of engineer, possibly an intern, but failed at that and became a "writer."  And frau Kemper, stay-at-home-mom dedicated her time to homeschooling.  Again, no credentials and certainly no science.

So, the question is this.  How desperate is the Toot that they partner up with these undereducated, uncredentialed non-scientists, non-educators, know nothing boobs to roll out their "Educational Package?"

Behe too busy?  Meyer mired in tar?  Wells unwilling?  Dr. Dr. out of the office?  Berlinski, well, jacking off as usual?

The DI is rolling out this "supplemental" material written by a couple of fucking undereducated, religious nut nobodies.

Srsly, have they sunk that low?

Edited by Doc Bill on May 21 2013,21:39

  
Cubist



Posts: 551
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2013,21:49   

Quote (Doc Bill @ May 21 2013,21:36)
The DI is rolling out this "supplemental" material written by a couple of fucking undereducated, religious nut nobodies.

Srsly, have they sunk that low?

Your question strongly implies that the DiscoTute was ever, at any time in the past, higher than it is now…

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2013,22:26   

It could be that the Toot is so desperate that they are using Hallie's feeble connections within the homeschooling community.

Failing with mainstream education perhaps the Toot is targeting homeschoolers who have no regulation and can teach any old shit, and do.

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2561
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 22 2013,10:11   

Will the NSCE publish a rebuttal: "Discovering Intelligent Design - Naturalism Or Theology"?

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Arctodus23



Posts: 322
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 22 2013,11:57   

The DI has a new profound book. With, revolutionary insights. Revealing, science contradicts his work, and Darwin had doubts, of his work. It's called Darwin's Doubt. You're welcome, to join the fun.

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"At our church’s funerals, we sing gospel songs (out loud) to God." -- FL

"So the center of the earth being hotter than the surface is a "gross
violation of the second law of thermodynamics??" -- Ted Holden

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 22 2013,15:04   

Quote (Cubist @ May 21 2013,19:49)
Quote (Doc Bill @ May 21 2013,21:36)
The DI is rolling out this "supplemental" material written by a couple of fucking undereducated, religious nut nobodies.

Srsly, have they sunk that low?

Your question strongly implies that the DiscoTute was ever, at any time in the past, higher than it is now…

Well, they had higher aspirations.

By now, they were hoping to be a good way through the later stages of the Wedge Strategy, and to be a major player in the transformation of the US into a theocracy.  Instead they're just trying to get a small piece of the selling-tracts-to-fundies action.  Sad.  But funny.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 23 2013,13:43   

Quote (Cubist @ May 21 2013,21:49)
Quote (Doc Bill @ May 21 2013,21:36)
The DI is rolling out this "supplemental" material written by a couple of fucking undereducated, religious nut nobodies.

Srsly, have they sunk that low?

Your question strongly implies that the DiscoTute was ever, at any time in the past, higher than it is now…

That's a good point.  I reflected, under the alcofluence of incohol, on the Tute over the years and you're right.

The Wedge Document was actually the High Point because at least it was a plan, it had goals, milestones and all that jazz.

But, what they've actually accomplished is absolutely nothing.  Just a lot of smoke and stink.

Dembski got fired, multiple times and is now even less of a nobody.  Behe is probably smelling retirement, or should be, having become totally irrelevant.  Wells just gets fatter and more disgusting.  Poor Stevie Meyer gets no respect, no traction and, outside of the group of lunatics who follow creationism for a hobby, is totally unknown.  Does Sternberg still have a job?  Who would know?

Books?  Failures.
DVD's?  Failures.
Academic Freedom Bills?  Failures, but one.
ID journals?  Failures.
ID research?  Failure.
IDEA clubs?  Failure.
Sucking donations from people with more money than brains?  Success!

I guess it's not all bad.

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2561
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2013,03:43   

Quote
Does Sternberg still have a job?  Who would know?

He's listed as part of the Biologic Institute:
Quote
is a Research Collaborator at the National Museum of Natural History. He joined Biologic Institute as a principal investigator in 2007.

And also still affiliated to the museum he was Expelled! from. But that doesn't actually say that the BI is paying him. Curious.

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
k.e..



Posts: 5427
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2013,08:41   

Quote (Bob O'H @ May 24 2013,11:43)
 
Quote
Does Sternberg still have a job?  Who would know?

He's listed as part of the Biologic Institute:
 
Quote
is a Research Collaborator at the National Museum of Natural History. He joined Biologic Institute as a principal investigator in 2007.

And also still affiliated to the museum he was Expelled! from. But that doesn't actually say that the BI is paying him. Curious.

A FREE TICKET ON THE LAST HELICOPTER OUTA SIAGON BUS OUTA HELL ON EARTH TAHTS WHAT! YOU LEFTBEHINDER.

HOMO!

What I want to know is whatever happened to Dr Berlinski Berlinski?

Did he interview another alter ego?

Did the interviewee ever have a right to response?  

Who was that girl, in the foyer of the Paris Ritz?

Did his Rabbi ever return his foreskin?

...just wondering.

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2013,21:05   

Poor Attack Gerbil Luskin whines on Evo Snooze that he's being beat up for being dishonest in his recent publication, "Discover Intentional Dishonesty."

"It's really, really, weally, hard to write for dumb people," Luskin lamented, "so, naturally I had to sacrifice stuff like facts and honesty.  Something had to give so I went for dumb."

Awwwww, poor widdle Casey, having to sacrifice scientific knowledge for creationist bilge.  Don't worry, Gerb, the homeschool market won't care one whit.  And "one whit" is about the profit you're going to see from this debacle.

Oh, dear me, debacle is such a big word, let me dumb it down for you:  fuck up.

All better?

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2013,08:12   

Berlinski was last seen in his counting house,  counting up the changes between cow and whale.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Arctodus23



Posts: 322
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2013,10:30   

Quote (Doc Bill @ May 24 2013,21:05)
Poor Attack Gerbil Luskin whines on Evo Snooze that he's being beat up for being dishonest in his recent publication, "Discover Intentional Dishonesty."

"It's really, really, weally, hard to write for dumb people," Luskin lamented, "so, naturally I had to sacrifice stuff like facts and honesty.  Something had to give so I went for dumb."

Awwwww, poor widdle Casey, having to sacrifice scientific knowledge for creationist bilge.  Don't worry, Gerb, the homeschool market won't care one whit.  And "one whit" is about the profit you're going to see from this debacle.

Oh, dear me, debacle is such a big word, let me dumb it down for you:  fuck up.

All better?

Debacle has 4 definitions, but the one you mean, is "total failure". But, I did that for Luskin the little one.

--------------
"At our church’s funerals, we sing gospel songs (out loud) to God." -- FL

"So the center of the earth being hotter than the surface is a "gross
violation of the second law of thermodynamics??" -- Ted Holden

   
REC



Posts: 638
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2013,10:40   

In the last 8 months or so, their own fake journal (Bio-complexity) has published as many, if not more, errata than "publications."

  
Arctodus23



Posts: 322
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2013,10:51   

Quote (REC @ May 25 2013,10:40)
In the last 8 months or so, their own fake journal (Bio-complexity) has published as many, if not more, errata than "publications."

A new word has been found coined to what they've been publishing. BULLSHIT.

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"At our church’s funerals, we sing gospel songs (out loud) to God." -- FL

"So the center of the earth being hotter than the surface is a "gross
violation of the second law of thermodynamics??" -- Ted Holden

   
REC



Posts: 638
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2013,11:00   

Quote (Arctodus23 @ May 25 2013,10:51)
Quote (REC @ May 25 2013,10:40)
In the last 8 months or so, their own fake journal (Bio-complexity) has published as many, if not more, errata than "publications."

A new word has been found coined to what they've been publishing. BULLSHIT.

Seems an appropriate time to chuckle about this one again:

ID "Lab" is a stock photograph

  
Arctodus23



Posts: 322
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2013,11:10   

Quote (REC @ May 25 2013,11:00)
Quote (Arctodus23 @ May 25 2013,10:51)
Quote (REC @ May 25 2013,10:40)
In the last 8 months or so, their own fake journal (Bio-complexity) has published as many, if not more, errata than "publications."

A new word has been found coined to what they've been publishing. BULLSHIT.

Seems an appropriate time to chuckle about this one again:

ID "Lab" is a stock photograph

I saw that years ago on PT.

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"At our church’s funerals, we sing gospel songs (out loud) to God." -- FL

"So the center of the earth being hotter than the surface is a "gross
violation of the second law of thermodynamics??" -- Ted Holden

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2013,13:05   

Nice summary here of

what the Disco Tute really does.

Basically, over 90% of the money the rake in goes into their own pockets.  It's a gravy train they have a vested interest in keeping on the tracks.  They get paid a very nice salary for doing nothing with no responsibility, no product, no accountability and their only risk is not bringing in donations.

I suspect that their DVD and book sales provide negligible income.  Yeah, we all knew this was the case but it's nice to see it written out.

  
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2013,13:17   

Ball State is in the news again. This time in a kerfluffle with the Disco Tute

John West is NOT happy about the press.

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5286
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2013,14:25   

Quote (Robin @ Oct. 07 2013,13:17)
Ball State is in the news again. This time in a kerfluffle with the Disco Tute

John West is NOT happy about the press.

LOL!  As of this post there are 55 comments to Westie's whining and not a single one supports him or his ID stupidity.  Those leaving comments are basically tearing him a new one over his and the DI's continued dishonesty. :p

Ain't free speech grand!   :D

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"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
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