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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Texas and Antievolution

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Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,09:44    Texas has an avowed antievolutionist and IDC advocate as its chair of the State Board of Education. The board itself has enough antievolutionists to set whatever policy they like. Texas state textbook decisions can change textbook content through the nation. There are plenty of issues that are expected to play out in the coming year in Texas. This thread is for collecting the news and handling the comments on all that. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,09:45    The Houston Chronicle endorsed Laura Ewing for the District 7 SBOE position. Bob O'H posted a comment on my blog questioning Ewing's position on antievolution, and Ewing has responded there. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Texas Teach Posts: 2082 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,16:39    Wesley, do you know if there's a good break-down somewhere of who's running for each district and where they stand on this? ETA: 100! -------------- "Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr "I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2008,16:42    wow laura ewing sure pwned bob.  get some.  bacteria and anti-biotics.  yeah! -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,11:09    It's going to get ugly

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2008,16:15    This from J. Spaceman on TalkOrigins news group October 15, 2008 AUSTIN - Texas Freedom Network President Kathy Miller today sharply criticized the inclusion of three strident evolution opponents, including two authors of an anti-evolution textbook, on a panel that will review proposed new science curriculum standards for Texas public schools. The inclusion of the two textbook authors raises serious questions about conflicts of interest and whether political agendas took priority over giving Texas students a 21st-century science education, Miller said. “It’s simply stunning that any state board members would even consider appointing authors of an anti-evolution textbook to a panel of scientists,” she said. “Are they coming here to help write good science standards or to drum up a market for their lousy textbook?” The textbook, Explore Evolution, is intended for secondary schools and colleges, according to its U.S. distributor, the anti-evolution Discovery Institute in Seattle. Because of that, the State Board of Education could consider it for the state’s approved list of science textbooks in 2011. The two authors are Stephen Meyer, who is vice president of the Discovery Institute, and Ralph Seelke, a professor of the department of biology and earth sciences at the University of Wisconsin-Superior. A third panel member, Charles Garner, is a professor of chemistry at Baylor University in Waco. All three are supporters of the anti-evolution concept “intelligent design”/creationism and have signed the Discovery Institute’s “Dissent from Darwinism” statement. In addition to their textbook, Meyer and Seelke testified in 2005 against evolution in hearings called by religious conservatives who controlled the Kansas State Board of Education. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Read it at http://www.tfn.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5455 PZ Mierz has more at http://scienceblogs.com/pharyng...._in.php Edited by Dr.GH on Oct. 15 2008,14:17 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Fross Posts: 71 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,20:25    sorry.  I leave TX for a few years and it all goes to sh@# I think we're doing alright here in NC though.  :) -------------- "For everything else, there's Mastertard"

Dale_Husband Posts: 118 Joined: April 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,01:00    As a native of Texas, I am naturally VERY concerned about the status of science education here. Boy, am I going to be biting my nails for the next year or two, at least! -------------- If you need a man-made book to beleive in a God who is said to have created the universe, of what value is your faith? You might as well worship an idol.

Doc Bill Posts: 1039 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2008,11:26    Alan Leshner in the Houston Chronicle. refers to Discovery Institute fellow Steven Meyer as Quote a leader of the "intelligent design" religious campaign I'm surprised the DI hasn't leapt to decry such a "mischaracterization!"

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2008,00:19    I suppose we'll all have to familiarize ourselves with the events going on in Texas, since there's just nothing going on in the rest of the ID world. I'll try to read some articles about it Monday.

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,08:42    Getting involved in Texas: how to join the organizations helping to make a difference. More DI Misinformation. Rob Crowther tries to say that calling the same old arguments a different name makes it all better. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,12:43    AAAS Addresses Texas Science Standards. AAAS CEO Alan Leshner published an op-ed in the October 22 Houston Chronicle that was critical of efforts by some members of the Texas State Board of Education to water down the teaching of evolution in revisions to the state science standards. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Henry J Posts: 5760 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2008,13:32    Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 29 2008,07:42) Getting involved in Texas: how to join the organizations helping to make a difference. More DI Misinformation. Rob Crowther tries to say that calling the same old arguments a different name makes it all better. cdesign proponentsists all over again?

Glenn Branch Posts: 19 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,11:04    <delurk> Zombie Jamboree in Texas </delurk>

JLT Posts: 740 Joined: Jan. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,10:08    The Disco institute links to reviews of the proposed Texas science standards. I read (well, sort of) Meyer's and Garner's reviews - now I feel sick. A highlight from Garner's review:     Quote About Section 7: Evolution The section in the proposed TEKS dealing with biological evolution has been greatly expanded (from two expectations in the current TEKS to five in the draft), probably reflecting the influence of outside groups who are frustrated with the general public’s skepticism about the more speculative claims of the theory. Although minor degrees of evolution are strongly supported by direct evidence (e.g., antibiotic resistance), the significant amount of evidence for greater degrees of change (i.e., major changes between groups) is necessarily circumstantial in nature. Circumstantial evidence supports conclusions of “the evidence is consistent with…” rather than “the evidence demonstrates that…” These limitations should be made clear in the presentation of this subject, and indeed in any field based on circumstantial evidence. In addition, in my experience and that of many objective scientists, assumptions and speculation are more common in evolutionary biology than in perhaps any other field of science. Many published reports that mention evolution are not in fact evidence for evolution at all; rather, they simply attribute their observations to the process or interpret their data assuming it to be true. In many papers, there appears to be no need to invoke evolution to explain the results, but the authors feel obliged to make their belief in the theory evident as a kind of scientific political correctness. Much has been said about how “science classes should be limited to science, not religion,” and I entirely agree. But speculation and assumptions are not science either. At the very least, assumptions should be identified as such. I am entirely supportive of teaching more about evolution in high school biology IF what is known versus what is speculated or assumed are clearly identified as such, and if the limitations of circumstantial evidence are clearly discussed. This could be accomplished if the TEKS apply a standard requiring that the “strengths and weaknesses” be learned by students. Meyer's is even worse. Compared to him Garner is open an honest about his intentions. -------------- "Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...] Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

Venus Mousetrap Posts: 201 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2008,10:58    Quote (JLT @ Nov. 07 2008,10:08) The Disco institute links to reviews of the proposed Texas science standards. I read (well, sort of) Meyer's and Garner's reviews - now I feel sick. A highlight from Garner's review:     Quote About Section 7: Evolution The section in the proposed TEKS dealing with biological evolution has been greatly expanded (from two expectations in the current TEKS to five in the draft), probably reflecting the influence of outside groups who are frustrated with the general public’s skepticism about the more speculative claims of the theory. Although minor degrees of evolution are strongly supported by direct evidence (e.g., antibiotic resistance), the significant amount of evidence for greater degrees of change (i.e., major changes between groups) is necessarily circumstantial in nature. Circumstantial evidence supports conclusions of “the evidence is consistent with…” rather than “the evidence demonstrates that…” These limitations should be made clear in the presentation of this subject, and indeed in any field based on circumstantial evidence. In addition, in my experience and that of many objective scientists, assumptions and speculation are more common in evolutionary biology than in perhaps any other field of science. Many published reports that mention evolution are not in fact evidence for evolution at all; rather, they simply attribute their observations to the process or interpret their data assuming it to be true. In many papers, there appears to be no need to invoke evolution to explain the results, but the authors feel obliged to make their belief in the theory evident as a kind of scientific political correctness. Much has been said about how “science classes should be limited to science, not religion,” and I entirely agree. But speculation and assumptions are not science either. At the very least, assumptions should be identified as such. I am entirely supportive of teaching more about evolution in high school biology IF what is known versus what is speculated or assumed are clearly identified as such, and if the limitations of circumstantial evidence are clearly discussed. This could be accomplished if the TEKS apply a standard requiring that the “strengths and weaknesses” be learned by students. Meyer's is even worse. Compared to him Garner is open an honest about his intentions. God damn it why won't these people just go AWAY. It really is sickening watching these childish tactics of pretending you don't really mean what you mean. WE KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO, IT HASN'T ESCAPED OUR ATTENTION THAT CREATIONISTS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO IT FOR DECADES, THAT YOU'RE ALL BASICALLY CREATIONISTS, AND THAT YOU SAID TEN YEARS AGO, ON PAPER, THAT YOU WERE GOING TO DO THIS IN THE NAME OF GOD. You lying scumbags. The more they do it, the less I believe in their god, who should totally be frying their asses with holy lightning.

J. G. Cox Posts: 38 Joined: Dec. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,13:10    The Texas SBOE is holding its first public hearing on curriculum standards on Wednesday, Nov 19th. This session includes the opportunity for public comment. If you are in or near Austin, TX, please come and testify. The Texas Freedom Network has all the info you need to do so nicely consolidated, so contact them if you are interested (even if you have no interest in their political stance). You are required to register with the SBOE either Friday or Monday (Nov. 14 and 17) if you want to testify. Hearings start at 9:00 am. The portion of the hearings relevant to evolution are scheduled for the end, which should be well after lunch. However, some shenanigans are likely, so show up early because it is possible for them to table everything and go right to the public testimony. That said, I'm planning on testifying, and I wonder what y'all think I should talk about. We only get 3 minutes. I was thinking about hitting the Dover trap idea, and pointing out that since the supposed 'weaknesses' are present only in creationist literature, and have no presence in actual scientific discourse, that lost lawsuits are an inevitability. This would only hurt local school districts and the kids. If I go this route, I'm considering pointing out that past public statements by SBOE board member(s) also leave a religious trail that any lawyer can follow, which makes the inevitable lawsuits even more perilous for local schools. I'm not sure if that would help or hurt, though. I was also thinking doing the St. Augustine thing, and proclaiming that broadcasting empirical statements that are blatantly false only hurts one's religion by making its proponents seem foolish. I thought that this might be a good rhetorical strategy because the underlying motivations behind all this mess are undeniably religious. However, I'm not sure my heart would be in that argument, since I don't honestly wish for the continued health of religion. Whadda y'all think?

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,13:29    Any half-way competent intellectual property lawyer is going to be able to demonstrate that the arguments presented by the antievolutionists as "weaknesses" fall into two classes: misrepresentations of scientific findings (telling falsehoods to students serves no secular purpose) or the very same arguments found only in the ensemble of religious antievolution arguments. By copious IP case law, the latter will then be treated by the court as derivative works; the religious antievolutionists cannot shed the history of the ensemble of arguments by the dodge of saying, "But we're only talking about science now." I don't mind laying this out in the open, because I see no escape on this point: either the religious antievolutionists give up the arguments they have used in the past or they reveal their agenda thereby. Practically, they can't give up their past arguments, because that is all they've got. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,15:13    Quote (J. G. Cox @ Nov. 11 2008,11:10) The Texas SBOE is holding its first public hearing on curriculum standards on Wednesday, Nov 19th. This session includes the opportunity for public comment. If you are in or near Austin, TX, please come and testify. The Texas Freedom Network has all the info you need to do so nicely consolidated, so contact them if you are interested (even if you have no interest in their political stance). You are required to register with the SBOE either Friday or Monday (Nov. 14 and 17) if you want to testify. Hearings start at 9:00 am. The portion of the hearings relevant to evolution are scheduled for the end, which should be well after lunch. However, some shenanigans are likely, so show up early because it is possible for them to table everything and go right to the public testimony. That said, I'm planning on testifying, and I wonder what y'all think I should talk about. We only get 3 minutes. I was thinking about hitting the Dover trap idea, and pointing out that since the supposed 'weaknesses' are present only in creationist literature, and have no presence in actual scientific discourse, that lost lawsuits are an inevitability. This would only hurt local school districts and the kids. If I go this route, I'm considering pointing out that past public statements by SBOE board member(s) also leave a religious trail that any lawyer can follow, which makes the inevitable lawsuits even more perilous for local schools. I'm not sure if that would help or hurt, though. I was also thinking doing the St. Augustine thing, and proclaiming that broadcasting empirical statements that are blatantly false only hurts one's religion by making its proponents seem foolish. I thought that this might be a good rhetorical strategy because the underlying motivations behind all this mess are undeniably religious. However, I'm not sure my heart would be in that argument, since I don't honestly wish for the continued health of religion. Whadda y'all think? Since you are short of time, there is a similar argument by Aquinas on science: "In discussing questions of this kind two rules are to be observed, as Augustine teaches.  The first is, to hold to the truth of Scripture without wavering. The second is that since Holy Scripture can be explained in a multiplicity of senses, one should adhere to a particular explanation only in such measure as to be ready to abandon it if it be proved with certainty to be false, lest Holy Scripture be exposed to the ridicule of unbelievers, and obstacles be placed to their believing." - Thomas Aquinas, c.a. 1225 - 1274, Summa Theological (1273). It is shorter than the usual quote by Augustine (which is also mentioned by Aquinas). I like to take along a Bible, preferablely a KJV. Just after reading the Aquinas quote, I hold it up by the 3 physical pages that contain Genesis 1 through 11. The entire young earth creationist dogma reduces to their insistance on a "literal" interpretation of these three pages. They insist that the entire rest of the Bible is false if those 3 pages have any meaning other than that peculiar to YEC. Only the most adamant athiests would agree with such a radical position, as there is no way to resolve the YEC dogma with physical reality. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2008,09:44    19 Out of 20 Science Professors Prefer Science -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

JLT Posts: 740 Joined: Jan. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2008,07:07    That's hysterical:   Quote One of the few voices from the other side [the anti-evolution side] came from Paul Kramer, a Carrollton engineer, who said that more than 700 eminent scientists welcome the teaching of pros and cons about evolution. Not allowing debate over untested and unproven theories "seems out of place in a free society” and is reminiscent of book-burning in Nazi Germany, he said. Source: Evolution proponents descend on State Board of Education -------------- "Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...] Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

Henry J Posts: 5760 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2008,10:14    Somebody should point out to that guy that "not allowing debate in the classroom" is not the same thing as not allowing debate. Debate, to have any real meaning*, has to be between people who have familiarity with the subject; students are by definition those who don't (yet) have that familiarity. Sheesh. (*It also has to be in a format that avoids informed responses being drowned out by breathtaking inanities.) Henry

dvunkannon Posts: 1377 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2008,17:42    Quote (JLT @ Nov. 20 2008,08:07) That's hysterical:   Quote One of the few voices from the other side [the anti-evolution side] came from Paul Kramer, a Carrollton engineer, who said that more than 700 eminent scientists welcome the teaching of pros and cons about evolution. Not allowing debate over untested and unproven theories "seems out of place in a free society” and is reminiscent of book-burning in Nazi Germany, he said. Source: Evolution proponents descend on State Board of Education Someone should point out that the "eminent scientists" include JAD, Berlinski, DDrr.. Dembski, Granville Sewell and many others of suspect sciencieness. (No disrespect to Mims, Heddle, etc. who are also on that list.) -------------- I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2008,17:49    I have made a few comments on the Star-Telegram site. Who are you others? If you are not posting, why not? There has been a frequent newspaper site commenter, bobxxx, I have seen at dozens of newspaper sites who is a particularly jackassery sort. They post a little bit of pro-sciecency and a lot of anti-Christian. I am thinking that they are the "anti-Poe," a creationist trying to make us look stupid. Edited by Dr.GH on Nov. 20 2008,15:52 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2008,14:39    Quote I am thinking that they are the "anti-Poe," a creationist trying to make us look stupid. There are certainly enough of those around. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2008,16:15    bobxxxx is an old time denizen of world magazine blog.  i think he is the real deal, i.e. an underinformed angry rude person (who is not particularly funny, an important distinction) who just happens to be on the pro-science side.  he went to a catholic school and hated every minute of it.  he was booted from world several years ago and hasn't shown back up. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,11:18    I've taken a pass at listing things mentioned in the SBOE hearings on the 19th that were standard religious antievolution arguments masquerading as "weaknesses". There's even a board member commenting on a Gish Gallop served up by an antievolutionist as being "science" and just the sort of thing that the board is seeking to promote. That's going to play so well in court. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,13:05    Quote That's going to play so well in court. I'm not an Obama fan, but I do have some hopes that his science advisers will be this side of reality from Deepshit d'Oprah. I know a lot of IDiots were counting on the Supreme Court changing in their favor. Perhaps they should go back to their test tubes, if they have 'em. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

bystander Posts: 301 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,14:26    Quote (midwifetoad @ Nov. 26 2008,06:05) Quote That's going to play so well in court. I'm not an Obama fan, but I do have some hopes that his science advisers will be this side of reality from Deepshit d'Oprah. I know a lot of IDiots were counting on the Supreme Court changing in their favor. Perhaps they should go back to their test tubes, if they have 'em. I don't think that it was coincidental that DrDr D left UD just after the election. It wouldn't surprise me if somebody with a modicum of sense said that the only way to move forward in an Obama administration is to start to look sciency again and nix the culture war stuff.

bfish Posts: 267 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,18:04    Quote (bystander @ Nov. 25 2008,12:26) I don't think that it was coincidental that DrDr D left UD just after the election. It wouldn't surprise me if somebody with a modicum of sense said that the only way to move forward in an Obama administration is to start to look sciency again and nix the culture war stuff. So who was the person with a modicum of sense who tipped off Dembski that he should move on?

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,18:07    Quote (bfish @ Nov. 25 2008,18:04) Quote (bystander @ Nov. 25 2008,12:26) I don't think that it was coincidental that DrDr D left UD just after the election. It wouldn't surprise me if somebody with a modicum of sense said that the only way to move forward in an Obama administration is to start to look sciency again and nix the culture war stuff. So who was the person with a modicum of sense who tipped off Dembski that he should move on? Not doubt The Designer, who has not been identified. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 05 2009,15:04    A glimpse into Texas classrooms under Mercer's leadership -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

subkumquat Posts: 26 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,17:55    Hopefully things  this this won't be the future in public schools. It's disheartening.

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,19:49    Fortunately, you can't just buy a public school in the US like you apparently can do in the UK. The news story is about a private school. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

subkumquat Posts: 26 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,20:05    Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 10 2009,19:49) Fortunately, you can't just buy a public school in the US like you apparently can do in the UK. The news story is about a private school. Which is why I noted "public" in my post. I just fear with current state erm...leadership? that we may be heading that way. Or at least throwing millions of dollars at it in law suits.

Spottedwind Posts: 83 Joined: Aug. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2009,07:04    I didn't get a gift for Wes for his birthday, so the best I can offer is Texas (tentatively) voting out "strengths and weaknesses" of evolution language from their science standards. But like many last minute gifts, it's kind of subpar; new language may be added that will '...require students to evaluate the "sufficiency or insufficiency" of scientific theories about common ancestry of different species.' Maybe I'll just get a sweater next time.

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2009,08:09    I don't guarantee to wear sweater-tents. Texas is in for a bumpy ride, it looks like. But the specific targetting of "common ancestry" should prove to work for us if any cases go to court, since they aren't going to find anybody doubting its "sufficiency" outside of the traditional religious antievolution literature. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2009,18:35    Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 10 2009,19:49) Fortunately, you can't just buy a public school in the US like you apparently can do in the UK. The news story is about a private school. You really can't do this in the UK either Wesley. Public schools in the US are the same as "State" schools in the UK. A public school in the UK is publicly funded by the parents of the pupils. Examples include Harrow: http://www.harrowschool.org.uk/ and Eton: http://www.etoncollege.com/ The cost of both of these establisments would be out of reach of all but the most wealthy members of UK society (e.g.royalty). NI is somewhat different to the rest of the UK. We still have academic selection (i.e.the so called 11 plus) and although it is supposed to be being replaced, no-one quite knows with what. There is a devisive debate currently being waged as to what will replace it. We also segregation on religious grounds with most pupils from the protestant community attending state schools (public schools in the US). Roman Catholics mainly attend religious schools run by the Roman Catholic church (both grammer and secondary). This is collectively known as the Catholic maintained sector. An example of a public school in NI is Campbell College: http://www.campbellcollege.co.uk/ Nowhere near as posh as Harrow or Eton but still prestigious as far as the province goes. Texas couldn't happen in the UK, even in NI (where YECism is rampant) as all schools are required to follow the national curriculum.

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2009,09:59    I must have dreamed this... Quote SIR PETER VARDY . . . a multi-millionaire car dealer and creationist evangelist, is offering £12m to help fund a network of state schools. Vardy, who has a personal fortune of £75m, has already put £2m into Emmanuel College, the city technology college in Gateshead at the centre of a row over giving scientific credence to the biblical view of how the world was created. A further £2m of the £12m he has set aside has been earmarked to establish a city academy in Middlesbrough, to open in 2003. He has also held talks with Leeds and Newcastle councils to set up further academies. Vardy, who regularly leads the worship at the Bethany Christian Centre, an evangelical church near his home in Tyne and Wear, is keen to help the government in creating city academies — new schools in deprived areas that will have business sponsors. . . -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2009,11:46    Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 24 2009,09:59) I must have dreamed this...   Quote SIR PETER VARDY . . . a multi-millionaire car dealer and creationist evangelist, is offering £12m to help fund a network of state schools. Vardy, who has a personal fortune of £75m, has already put £2m into Emmanuel College, the city technology college in Gateshead at the centre of a row over giving scientific credence to the biblical view of how the world was created. A further £2m of the £12m he has set aside has been earmarked to establish a city academy in Middlesbrough, to open in 2003. He has also held talks with Leeds and Newcastle councils to set up further academies. Vardy, who regularly leads the worship at the Bethany Christian Centre, an evangelical church near his home in Tyne and Wear, is keen to help the government in creating city academies — new schools in deprived areas that will have business sponsors. . . As far as I can tell wesley, it never happened. What was proposed was that Northcliffe Comprehensve (the school in question) would close and a "Peter Vardy" one open in it's place. The plan fell through, partly due to opposition from parents: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2005/jan/15/features.politics   Quote Within a couple of days of the news that the council was considering the closure of Northcliffe comprehensive and the opening of another Vardy Academy, Kay Wilkinson and Tracy Morton had amassed a bulging file of information, and resolved to form Cadpag, the Conisbrough and Denaby Parents' Action Group.   Quote On Wednesday October 13, however, Doncaster's mayor served notice that Northcliffe Comprehensive would remain open, and that the Vardy plan was thereby binned The city accademy never happened either. That's somewhat different than making a blase statement implying that anyone can simply walk in and buy a state school in the UK. This just does not happen in this country.

Marion Delgado Posts: 89 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2009,12:02    Not that I am siding with all you atheists and science fascists, but I have to admit that I've met a few designers and I've never met or even heard of one that didn't want to be identified. What about the possibility that the Designer actually created life on Earth as some sort of bootleg or knock-off? We could be a cheap Chinese replica of the real thing! I never had these depressing-type thoughts until I learned about evolution, and I wonder what professor Davison would think? Does the Designer have to be dead, or is He just keeping a Low Profile?

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2009,13:08    Quote The plan fell through, partly due to opposition from parents That's rather different from saying that it can't happen. The rules allow for the sort of thing Vardy proposed. It's a contingent outcome that it did not work out that way. The fact remains that someone can purchase a school in the UK that corresponds to what we call a public K-12 school here in the USA. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Badger3k Posts: 861 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2009,14:35    Quote (Marion Delgado @ Jan. 24 2009,12:02) Not that I am siding with all you atheists and science fascists, but I have to admit that I've met a few designers and I've never met or even heard of one that didn't want to be identified. What about the possibility that the Designer actually created life on Earth as some sort of bootleg or knock-off? We could be a cheap Chinese replica of the real thing! I never had these depressing-type thoughts until I learned about evolution, and I wonder what professor Davison would think? Does the Designer have to be dead, or is He just keeping a Low Profile? You know, that would explain a lot.  Perhaps the original spelling is "Erth" and we're just the cheap knock-off.  Seriously, that line of thought does fit with what we know of the Gnostics and the Demiurge. -------------- "Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

bystander Posts: 301 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2009,14:44    Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 25 2009,07:35) Quote (Marion Delgado @ Jan. 24 2009,12:02) Not that I am siding with all you atheists and science fascists, but I have to admit that I've met a few designers and I've never met or even heard of one that didn't want to be identified. What about the possibility that the Designer actually created life on Earth as some sort of bootleg or knock-off? We could be a cheap Chinese replica of the real thing! I never had these depressing-type thoughts until I learned about evolution, and I wonder what professor Davison would think? Does the Designer have to be dead, or is He just keeping a Low Profile? You know, that would explain a lot.  Perhaps the original spelling is "Erth" and we're just the cheap knock-off.  Seriously, that line of thought does fit with what we know of the Gnostics and the Demiurge. So we are like the no name brand peas from the supermarket.

Alan Fox Posts: 1552 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2009,06:18    Quote The fact remains that someone can purchase a school in the UK that corresponds to what we call a public K-12 school here in the USA. No, it's just a theory.

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2009,09:07    Quote (Alan Fox @ Jan. 25 2009,06:18) Quote The fact remains that someone can purchase a school in the UK that corresponds to what we call a public K-12 school here in the USA. No, it's just a theory. LOL -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Marion Delgado Posts: 89 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2009,14:48    I would like to call this the theory of Budget Design, unless a literature search shows it's been already theorized/described. As I see it, our designer would be more an imitator or reverse engineer, poorly paid, and working for a concern that depended on mass marketing for its return on investment. And my theory makes a testable prediction, because when we find other life in the universe, it should mostly be flawed (hernias, aging, backaches, etc. etc.) but pointing to something perfectible. Because only a select few planets would have designer life, the rest will be mass-market. As a scientific corollary, when we find perfect life, we will have located Heaven, and we can adjust our Bibles accordingly. I'm not fit to latch professor Davison's sandals, or carry Professor Behe's coat, but I must say I am already feeling the inspiration of something "new under the sun" as Eccliastes puts it. As a bonus my theory is in accordance with the iron laws of economics as we know them.

Alan Fox Posts: 1552 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,07:15    Oops! Wrong thread. Out of practice

csadams Posts: 124 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 03 2009,21:35    Check out Collapse of a Texas Quote Mine. Jeremy Mohn has put together extensive documentation showing how Texas SBOE chairman Don McLeroy grossly distorted the authors' intents, that McLeroy probably didn't read the sources he'd claimed to have read, and how McLeroy plagiarized a creationist website for some of his erroneous information. (right, I understand this bit of news is on the order of dog bites man . . .) -------------- Stand Up For REAL Science!

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 03 2009,21:46    I used to be a quote miner. http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/06/and-the-winner.html EDIT: Here's where I identified Genesis Park as the number three internet quote mine, using talkorigins quotes, Google, and an Access database. http://blog.darwincentral.org/2006....of-dawn -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2009,14:26    Mississippi disclaimer bill dead Quote Mississippi's House Bill 25, which would have mandated the state board of education to require every textbook that discusses evolution to include a disclaimer describing evolution as "a controversial theory," died in committee on February 3, 2009, according to the state's legislative website. At present, the only state to require a textbook disclaimer about evolution is Alabama, which is currently using a disclaimer adopted in 2005. The proposed Mississippi disclaimer was evidently a hybrid of two previous versions of the Alabama disclaimer: its first paragraph is modeled on the first paragraph of the second version (adopted in 2001), while much of the remainder is modeled on the first version (adopted in 1995). http://ncseweb.org/news....-004276 -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2009,09:27    Quote State Board of Education Chairman Don McLeroy was reappointed to a new, two-year term by Gov. Rick Perry on Friday. McLeroy, a Republican from College Station, has been on the board for nearly a decade and is one of seven members closely aligned with social conservatives. McLeroy, a dentist, was on the losing end of a controversial board vote last month to scrap a longtime state requirement that high school teachers cover so-called "weaknesses" in the theory of evolution in science classes. McLeroy was successful in getting the board to adopt a weaker rule backed by evolution critics that says students must consider the "sufficiency or insufficiency" of Charles Darwin's tenet that living things have common ancestors. Science teacher groups will try to eliminate that requirement in a final board vote on new science curriculum standards in March. http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archive....ir.html -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

JLT Posts: 740 Joined: Jan. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2009,11:46    Quote (csadams @ Feb. 04 2009,03:35) Check out Collapse of a Texas Quote Mine. Jeremy Mohn has put together extensive documentation showing how Texas SBOE chairman Don McLeroy grossly distorted the authors' intents, that McLeroy probably didn't read the sources he'd claimed to have read, and how McLeroy plagiarized a creationist website for some of his erroneous information. (right, I understand this bit of news is on the order of dog bites man . . .) On ID the future they've got McLeroy's performance as a podcast. The title?     Quote Texas Board Chair Gives a Science Lesson Last week, the Texas State Board of Education met to consider a draft of their new science standards. At the meeting, the Board’s Chair, Dr. Don McLeroy did a remarkable thing – he gave the rest of the Board a science lesson, which began when McLeroy proposed a new standard regarding evolution. Listen in to this episode of ID the Future as Dr. McLeroy lays out a compelling case for the existence of scientific controversies over evolution. [edited to add:] A science lesson by someone who probably copied some of his quotes from a creationist site, including errors: Quote Incidentally, this citation error appears to have originated in a  book review published in 2004 by someone named Don Moeller. All of the quotes above can also be found within that review, along with the citation error. That means, assuming that the above evidence isn't just an amazing coincidence, Dr. McLeroy actually plagiarized a list of quotes that were transcribed by someone else who was reading some other guy's review of the book that McLeroy claimed to have read. Did you follow all of that? Good. So why does any of this matter? Why should you care about poor scholarship and an apparent lack of academic integrity on the part of the Chairman of the Texas Board of Education? -------------- "Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...] Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2009,07:22    McLeroy has recommended Robert Johnson's book Sowing Atheism: The National Academy of Sciences' Sinister Scheme to Teach Our Children They're Descended from Reptiles, for the Texas Board of Education's reading list. It must be a wonderful book. For General J.C. Christian's review of it, go here; vote it up if the spirit moves you. -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

khan Posts: 1554 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2009,16:46    Page problem? -------------- "It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad Frequency is just the plural of wavelength... -JoeG

AmandaHuginKiss Posts: 150 Joined: Dec. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2009,16:56    Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 19 2009,00:22) McLeroy has [URL=http://www.examiner.com/x-4275-DC-Secularism-Examiner~y2009m3d16-Things-are-getting-really-scary-in-Texas-Part-1-B eware-the-evoatheists]recommended Robert Johnson's book[/URL] Sowing Atheism: The National Academy of Sciences' Sinister Scheme to Teach Our Children They're Descended from Reptiles, for the Texas Board of Education's reading list. It must be a wonderful book. For General J.C. Christian's review of it, go here; vote it up if the spirit moves you. Love it. 7 negative reviews and 2 of the three positive reviews are jokes.

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2009,08:17    Quote House Bill 4224, introduced in the Texas House of Representatives on March 13, 2009, would, if enacted, require the Texas state board of education to restore the "strengths and weaknesses" language in the Texas state science standards. The current standards for high school biology include a requirement that reads, "The student is expected to analyze, review, and critique scientific explanations, including hypotheses and theories, as to their strengths and weaknesses using scientific evidence and information." As NCSE previously reported, in 2003 the "strengths and weaknesses" language in the standards was selectively applied by members of the board attempting to dilute the treatment of evolution in the biology textbooks then under consideration. When a panel of scientific and educational experts revised the standards, the "strengths and weaknesses" requirement was replaced with "The student is expected to analyze and evaluate scientific explanations using empirical evidence, logical reasoning, and experimental and observational testing." In a close vote on January 23, 2009, the board gave its preliminary approval to a version of the standards without the "strengths and weaknesses" language; a final vote is expected at the board's March 26-27, 2009, meeting. http://ncseweb.org/news/2009/03/weaknesses-by-back-door-texas-004648 -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Richardthughes Posts: 11177 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2009,09:18    Don Mcelroy's website: http://www.donmcleroy.com/ has all sorts of 'intersting' articles. Check out: http://home.att.net/~dmcler....ign.htm Quote ..Conclusion In conclusion, we have a worldview clash.  We need to chip away at the foundation of their worldview by first, demonstrating their dependence on a naturalistic philosophy and second, by demonstrating the weight of evidence that stands against Darwinism. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2009,09:47    Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 20 2009,09:18) Don Mcelroy's website: http://www.donmcleroy.com/ has all sorts of 'intersting' articles. Check out: http://home.att.net/~dmcler....ign.htm Quote ..Conclusion In conclusion, we have a worldview clash.  We need to chip away at the foundation of their worldview by first, demonstrating their dependence on a naturalistic philosophy and second, by demonstrating the weight of evidence that stands against Darwinism. He's like DaveScot without the hair, Floating Command Center, addiction to Cheesy Poofs or a brain! I'm thinking that perhaps the Baby Jesus should send him an email and point out some of the stupidities and problems with his thinking. -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

k.e.. Posts: 5427 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2009,10:00    Quote (bystander @ Nov. 25 2008,22:26) Quote (midwifetoad @ Nov. 26 2008,06:05) Quote That's going to play so well in court. I'm not an Obama fan, but I do have some hopes that his science advisers will be this side of reality from Deepshit d'Oprah. I know a lot of IDiots were counting on the Supreme Court changing in their favor. Perhaps they should go back to their test tubes, if they have 'em. I don't think that it was coincidental that DrDr D left UD just after the election. It wouldn't surprise me if somebody with a modicum of sense said that the only way to move forward in an Obama administration is to start to look sciency again and nix the culture war stuff. Now that's telling and might explain DaveTards outburst to get himself booted from UD. They'll wander the desert until the next election. -------------- "I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit "ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus "I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2009,04:36    Quote A Texas legislator is waging a war of biblical proportions against the science and education communities in the Lone Star State as he fights for a bill that would allow a private school that teaches creationism to grant a Master of Science degree in the subject. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,509719,00.html -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Richardthughes Posts: 11177 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2009,12:54    Pharyngula: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyng....int.php -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11177 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2009,15:53    CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/25/texas.evolution.teaching/ -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11177 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2009,16:31    Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 20 2009,09:18) Don Mcelroy's website: http://www.donmcleroy.com/ has all sorts of 'intersting' articles. Check out: http://home.att.net/~dmcler....ign.htm Quote ..Conclusion In conclusion, we have a worldview clash.  We need to chip away at the foundation of their worldview by first, demonstrating their dependence on a naturalistic philosophy and second, by demonstrating the weight of evidence that stands against Darwinism. He's got a 'batshit-crazy-come-back-to-haunt-me-in-court' Op-Ed: http://www.statesman.com/opinion....it.html -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

creeky belly Posts: 205 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2009,21:07    Steve Schafersman live-blogged today's shenanigans proceedings of the TSBOE. One creationist lawyer (suprisingly not Casey Luskin) said the board would be sued if they took out the "strengths and weaknesses" language. Thankfully, there were some great representatives from both science and industry, but I get the feeling from the board's comments that this is largely a repeat of KBOE. They seem to have made up there minds already, so to see anything but a one vote victory would be very surprising. The link

Reginald Beasley Posts: 31 Joined: April 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,12:10    We won!   Just crossing the BABlog right now: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastr....-barely 7-7 vote means science wins, just barely.

Richardthughes Posts: 11177 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,12:20    Quote (Reginald Beasley @ Mar. 26 2009,12:10) We won!   Just crossing the BABlog right now: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastr....-barely 7-7 vote means science wins, just barely. HAR HAR IN YOUR FACE CREATIONISTS! -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4966 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,12:31    Quote (Reginald Beasley @ Mar. 26 2009,12:10) We won!   Just crossing the BABlog right now: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastr....-barely 7-7 vote means science wins, just barely. One of the pro-science board members was out today, but is expected back tomorrow. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Richardthughes Posts: 11177 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,12:38    ID predicts Casey Luskin will spin this into a victory. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11177 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,13:48    Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 26 2009,12:38) ID predicts Casey Luskin will spin this into a victory. Boo! It was John West: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009....it.html Quote Texas Board Member Censors Citizen Expression at Board Meeting Apparently Texas Board of Education member Rick Agosto isn’t just content to censor science by removing any criticisms of evolution from the science curriculum. The San Antonio Democrat even wants to prevent citizens from expressing their disagreement with that censorship. This morning Agosto demanded that some citizens quietly holding signs stating “Don’t Censor Science” at the Board meeting take down their signs. He even called on security personnel to forcibly remove the signs, but Board chair Don McElroy intervened to stop that abuse of power. Agosto’s over-the-top behavior toward non-disruptive attendees at the meeting followed his earlier denunciation of intelligent design as not being based on science. Agosto doesn’t appear to have actually read anything by intelligent design proponents, and his comments attacking intelligent design were completely gratuitous since the Board isn’t even considering adding intelligent design to the science standards. Interestingly, at yesterday’s Board meeting Agosto used his right of personal privilege to bring back non-Texan Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education to speak before the Board. Because Scott spoke at the January meeting, she was supposed to be near the bottom of the speakers’ list yesterday in order to allow new people to testify. But Agosto seems to have been more interested in hearing from arch-Darwinist Scott than hearing from his own constituents or other Texans patiently waiting to testify -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Spottedwind Posts: 83 Joined: Aug. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,14:02    Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 26 2009,14:48)   But Agosto seems to have been more interested in hearing from arch-Darwinist Scott... Man, that arch-Darwinist rank is so far away! I'm stuck between Neophyte and Daily Atheist Yay for good news!  And now we wait for the next gopher to pop up.

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,14:14    Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 26 2009,13:48) Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 26 2009,12:38) ID predicts Casey Luskin will spin this into a victory. Boo! It was John West: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009....it.html   Quote Texas Board Member Censors Citizen Expression at Board Meeting Apparently Texas Board of Education member Rick Agosto isn’t just content to censor science by removing any criticisms of evolution from the science curriculum. The San Antonio Democrat even wants to prevent citizens from expressing their disagreement with that censorship. This morning Agosto demanded that some citizens quietly holding signs stating “Don’t Censor Science” at the Board meeting take down their signs. He even called on security personnel to forcibly remove the signs, but Board chair Don McElroy intervened to stop that abuse of power. Agosto’s over-the-top behavior toward non-disruptive attendees at the meeting followed his earlier denunciation of intelligent design as not being based on science. Agosto doesn’t appear to have actually read anything by intelligent design proponents, and his comments attacking intelligent design were completely gratuitous since the Board isn’t even considering adding intelligent design to the science standards. Interestingly, at yesterday’s Board meeting Agosto used his right of personal privilege to bring back non-Texan Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education to speak before the Board. Because Scott spoke at the January meeting, she was supposed to be near the bottom of the speakers’ list yesterday in order to allow new people to testify. But Agosto seems to have been more interested in hearing from arch-Darwinist Scott than hearing from his own constituents or other Texans patiently waiting to testify Typical. The rest of the story, in part: Quote BREAKING NEWS: A proposed amendment adding “strengths and weaknesses” of scientific theories back to the science standards has failed on a 7-7 vote. 11:17 - With the defeat of “strengths and weaknesses,” the board is now on to other amendments. Ms. Cargill begins. 11:20 Despite Chairman McLeroy’s repeated prohibition against signs in the hearing room (targeted at TFN members quietly holding signs saying things like “Stand Up for Science”), creationists who wanted “strengths and weaknesses” in the standards have brought a couple of bright neon signs to the hearing room today reading: “Don’t Censor Science” and “No Science Censorship” Finally, Mr. Agosto requested that Chairman McLeroy ask the creationists to withdraw their signs. He did. -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

ERV Posts: 329 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,14:34    Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 26 2009,14:14) Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 26 2009,13:48)   Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 26 2009,12:38) ID predicts Casey Luskin will spin this into a victory. Boo! It was John West: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009....it.html   Quote Texas Board Member Censors Citizen Expression at Board Meeting Apparently Texas Board of Education member Rick Agosto isn’t just content to censor science by removing any criticisms of evolution from the science curriculum. The San Antonio Democrat even wants to prevent citizens from expressing their disagreement with that censorship. This morning Agosto demanded that some citizens quietly holding signs stating “Don’t Censor Science” at the Board meeting take down their signs. He even called on security personnel to forcibly remove the signs, but Board chair Don McElroy intervened to stop that abuse of power. Agosto’s over-the-top behavior toward non-disruptive attendees at the meeting followed his earlier denunciation of intelligent design as not being based on science. Agosto doesn’t appear to have actually read anything by intelligent design proponents, and his comments attacking intelligent design were completely gratuitous since the Board isn’t even considering adding intelligent design to the science standards. Interestingly, at yesterday’s Board meeting Agosto used his right of personal privilege to bring back non-Texan Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education to speak before the Board. Because Scott spoke at the January meeting, she was supposed to be near the bottom of the speakers’ list yesterday in order to allow new people to testify. But Agosto seems to have been more interested in hearing from arch-Darwinist Scott than hearing from his own constituents or other Texans patiently waiting to testify Typical. The rest of the story, in part:   Quote BREAKING NEWS: A proposed amendment adding “strengths and weaknesses” of scientific theories back to the science standards has failed on a 7-7 vote. 11:17 - With the defeat of “strengths and weaknesses,” the board is now on to other amendments. Ms. Cargill begins. 11:20 Despite Chairman McLeroy’s repeated prohibition against signs in the hearing room (targeted at TFN members quietly holding signs saying things like “Stand Up for Science”), creationists who wanted “strengths and weaknesses” in the standards have brought a couple of bright neon signs to the hearing room today reading: “Don’t Censor Science” and “No Science Censorship” Finally, Mr. Agosto requested that Chairman McLeroy ask the creationists to withdraw their signs. He did. LOL!!!

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,14:45    Quote (ERV @ Mar. 26 2009,14:34) Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 26 2009,14:14)   Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 26 2009,13:48)     Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 26 2009,12:38) ID predicts Casey Luskin will spin this into a victory. Boo! It was John West: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009....it.html     Quote Texas Board Member Censors Citizen Expression at Board Meeting Apparently Texas Board of Education member Rick Agosto isn’t just content to censor science by removing any criticisms of evolution from the science curriculum. The San Antonio Democrat even wants to prevent citizens from expressing their disagreement with that censorship. This morning Agosto demanded that some citizens quietly holding signs stating “Don’t Censor Science” at the Board meeting take down their signs. He even called on security personnel to forcibly remove the signs, but Board chair Don McElroy intervened to stop that abuse of power. Agosto’s over-the-top behavior toward non-disruptive attendees at the meeting followed his earlier denunciation of intelligent design as not being based on science. Agosto doesn’t appear to have actually read anything by intelligent design proponents, and his comments attacking intelligent design were completely gratuitous since the Board isn’t even considering adding intelligent design to the science standards. Interestingly, at yesterday’s Board meeting Agosto used his right of personal privilege to bring back non-Texan Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education to speak before the Board. Because Scott spoke at the January meeting, she was supposed to be near the bottom of the speakers’ list yesterday in order to allow new people to testify. But Agosto seems to have been more interested in hearing from arch-Darwinist Scott than hearing from his own constituents or other Texans patiently waiting to testify Typical. The rest of the story, in part:     Quote BREAKING NEWS: A proposed amendment adding “strengths and weaknesses” of scientific theories back to the science standards has failed on a 7-7 vote. 11:17 - With the defeat of “strengths and weaknesses,” the board is now on to other amendments. Ms. Cargill begins. 11:20 Despite Chairman McLeroy’s repeated prohibition against signs in the hearing room (targeted at TFN members quietly holding signs saying things like “Stand Up for Science”), creationists who wanted “strengths and weaknesses” in the standards have brought a couple of bright neon signs to the hearing room today reading: “Don’t Censor Science” and “No Science Censorship” Finally, Mr. Agosto requested that Chairman McLeroy ask the creationists to withdraw their signs. He did. LOL!!! Good old John West.  Silver tongued devil, he is. One thing I didn't catch before was his reference (seen above) to Eugenie Scott as a "non-Texan".  Hey, Johnnie-boy, where are you and Casey Luskin from again? Seattle? Really?  Is that near Houston? -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,15:25    One thing I didn't catch before was his reference (seen above) to Eugenie Scott as a "non-Texan".  Hey, Johnnie-boy, where are you and Casey Luskin from again? Seattle? Really?  Is that near Houston?[/quote] B UT You seem to have forgotten that West and Luskin's body of work have earned them the IDCoveted Dumb As A Texan Award, and if you weren't an arch-Darwinist with your head in a fossil, you would know this.! -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Bing Posts: 144 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,19:54    Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 26 2009,15:25) B UT You seem to have forgotten that West and Luskin's body of work have earned them the IDCoveted Dumb As A Texan Award, Are they allowed to eat in the Baylor cafeteria?

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,20:03    Quote (Bing @ Mar. 26 2009,19:54) Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 26 2009,15:25) B UT You seem to have forgotten that West and Luskin's body of work have earned them the IDCoveted Dumb As A Texan Award, Are they allowed to eat in the Baylor cafeteria? I think they both may be qualified to work there - but not out front dealing with the public. -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Amadan Posts: 1337 Joined: Jan. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,07:53    Quote [mined] from unknown source: Quote Something about it reminded me of Texas - the enormous, wide, open spaces, surrounded by teeth. -------------- "People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011 JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,14:18    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastr....6-hours Quote Well, that was fast. Texas Board of Education creationist Barbara Cargill today proposed an amendment to the science standards saying that teachers have to tell their students there are different estimates for the age of the Universe. This is not even a veiled attempt to attack the Big Bang model of the Universe, which clearly, and through multiple lines of evidence, indicates the Universe is 13.7 +/- 0.12 billion years old. So Ms. Cargill is right, if she means that "different estimates" range from 13.58 to 13.82 (given one standard deviation) billion years old. But she doesn’t mean that at all, does she? If you read her website, you’ll see she’s an out-and-out creationist. She has a large number of, um, factual errors on her site that are clearly right out of the Creationist Obscurational Handbook. Anyway, her antiscience amendment passed 11 - 3. So tomorrow that will go to the final vote on whether it will be added to the standards or not. With such a majority voting to pass it along, it looks like it will pass, and Texas students will get their chance to learn that the Universe is 6000 years old, and when they try to get a job or do anything later in life, they will be routinely laughed at. That’s great, Texas! Keep on keepin’ on. So I rescind my earlier post, and tentatively (until the final vote tomorrow) submit: -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Texas Teach Posts: 2082 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,17:09    Summary from Steve Schafersman's live blogging:     Quote What is the bottom line? Did we win or lose? Neither. We got rid of the worst language, but a great deal of qualifying language remains. I am not going to claim either victory or defeat. I realize that Casey Luskin of Discovery Institute will declare complete, unqualified victory, but it is not that for them. Neither is it for us. The standards adopted were generally good, but there are several that are flawed, fortunately most in minor ways that textbook authors and publishers can deal with. I think we can work around the few flawed standards. But the point is that there shouldn't be ANY flawed standards. The science standards as submitted by the science writing teams were excellent and flaw-free. All the flaws were added by politically unscrupulous SBOE members with an extreme right-wing religious agenda to support Creationism. Read Friday's liveblog here As someone who has to use the standards, reading about how we get such insane language as "guidance" now becomes clear.  Even the ok standards are now a mess of impossible to parse grammar. Given the creationists on the Board, I guess we're lucky there aren't sections written in ALL CAPS.   -------------- "Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr "I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,19:06    I think textbook publishers should take up the challenge and increase coverage of the evidence for evolution. This way they acknowledge opposition, but strengthen the argument for evolution. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Doc Bill Posts: 1039 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,19:41    I would like to give a shout out to Mavis Knight of Dallas who made a sincere observation that Ms Dunbar had demonstrated "statesmanship" in her compromise. However, I would like to slam moron and creationist chair McLemore for shouting down Mrs. Knight as "indecorous" regarding her comment about Dunbar. Unfortunately for Knight, Dunbar was merely being sly, knowing that her wordsmithing which she is self-famous for was a meaningless gesture. However, it did point out the extreme intolerance of the creationists to any criticism. Academic freedom to a creationist means it's OK for them to spout their nonsense and everybody else has to STFU or show TITS.  I guess.

ppb Posts: 325 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2009,12:47    Eugenie Scott of NCSE is going to be on the NPR program Science Friday tomorrow, April 10 at 2 PM EDT, talking about what's happening in Texas. -------------- "[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd." - Richard P. Feynman

Dr.GH Posts: 2324 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2009,18:32    It is an incredible irony that the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) in science pannel meets this year in Texas. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

JLT Posts: 740 Joined: Jan. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: April 26 2009,17:35    The Discovery Institute apparently sent out emails asking its "friends" to support Don McLeroy, chairman of the Texas SBOE. He was nominated for a second term as chairman but it doesn't look all that good for him. From the email: Quote "Supporting those, like Don McLeroy, who take a stand for academic freedom to question evolution at personal cost is one of the most important and effective things citizens can do," said CSC Associate Director John West. "It sends a message to elected officials that expelling leaders like Dr. McLeroy because of their stance on Darwin's theory is simply not acceptable." Now it's expellimation if elected officials vote against a creationist. I'd thought that's called democracy. But what do I know. -------------- "Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...] Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

Doc Bill Posts: 1039 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: May 28 2009,16:12    McLeroy confirmation fails! Details at TFN: Texas Freedom Network Blog

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 28 2009,16:49    Quote (Doc Bill @ May 28 2009,17:12) McLeroy confirmation fails! Details at TFN: Texas Freedom Network Blog Just came running to tell it. You gotta be quick around here... -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 28 2009,18:36    Quote (Lou FCD @ May 28 2009,16:49) Quote (Doc Bill @ May 28 2009,17:12) McLeroy confirmation fails! Details at TFN: Texas Freedom Network Blog Just came running to tell it. You gotta be quick around here... :p Hmmm.... It looks like Perry can still pick another yahoo however, so this is stop-gap at best.   Come on Texans! -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 28 2009,19:18    Quote (J-Dog @ May 28 2009,19:36) Quote (Lou FCD @ May 28 2009,16:49) Quote (Doc Bill @ May 28 2009,17:12) McLeroy confirmation fails! Details at TFN: Texas Freedom Network Blog Just came running to tell it. You gotta be quick around here... :p Hmmm.... It looks like Perry can still pick another yahoo however, so this is stop-gap at best.   Come on Texans! Also kind of depressing that he got a majority of yes votes. Fortunately, a simple majority doesn't cut it, but still. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

AmandaHuginKiss Posts: 150 Joined: Dec. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: May 28 2009,20:21    Quote (Lou FCD @ May 29 2009,12:18) Quote (J-Dog @ May 28 2009,19:36) Quote (Lou FCD @ May 28 2009,16:49)   Quote (Doc Bill @ May 28 2009,17:12) McLeroy confirmation fails! Details at TFN: Texas Freedom Network Blog Just came running to tell it. You gotta be quick around here... :p Hmmm.... It looks like Perry can still pick another yahoo however, so this is stop-gap at best.   Come on Texans! Also kind of depressing that he got a majority of yes votes. Fortunately, a simple majority doesn't cut it, but still. Split along party lines. Some Republicans could have voted for McLeroy to satisfy their voter base, knowing that he was going to be kicked out in any case. There was apparently a big letter writing campaign supporting McLeroy and this could have worried them.

Doc Bill Posts: 1039 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2009,06:31    I'm here in France enjoying the socialism, wine and good food. I followed the live blog on the hotel Internet right up to the vote.  Thanks, Dan Quinn, if you were live-blogging. With PT open in another tab, it was quick work on my MacBook Pro!

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2009,15:08    Quote (Doc Bill @ May 29 2009,06:31) I'm here in France enjoying the socialism, wine and good food. I followed the live blog on the hotel Internet right up to the vote.  Thanks, Dan Quinn, if you were live-blogging. With PT open in another tab, it was quick work on my MacBook Pro! While in France, remember to look outside your window: Typical French Street Scene -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Doc Bill Posts: 1039 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: May 29 2009,16:35    Please, J-Dog! That's old nues. (ba dum bing!)

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