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  Topic: speciation of humans and chimpanzees< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 29 2006,05:32   

In the "AFDave doesn't know squat about the evolution of apes" topic (that I don't want to continue) we were dicussing the divergence time between our lineage and chimps and also the fact that genomic data contradict paleontological data.
I think this paper in the latest issue of Nature is worth reading, for those who have a subscription.

 
Quote
Genetic evidence for complex speciation of humans and chimpanzees

Nick Patterson1, Daniel J. Richter1, Sante Gnerre1, Eric S. Lander1,2 and David Reich1,3

Abstract
The genetic divergence time between two species varies substantially across the genome, conveying important information about the timing and process of speciation. Here we develop a framework for studying this variation and apply it to about 20 million base pairs of aligned sequence from humans, chimpanzees, gorillas and more distantly related primates. Human–chimpanzee genetic divergence varies from less than 84% to more than 147% of the average, a range of more than 4 million years. Our analysis also shows that human–chimpanzee speciation occurred less than 6.3 million years ago and probably more recently, conflicting with some interpretations of ancient fossils. Most strikingly, chromosome X shows an extremely young genetic divergence time, close to the genome minimum along nearly its entire length. These unexpected features would be explained if the human and chimpanzee lineages initially diverged, then later exchanged genes before separating permanently.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v441/n7097/abs/nature04789.html

  
Chris Hyland



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 29 2006,10:50   

Thanks for the link. Nice to see some data  to support the interbreeding hypothesis. So much for Dave and the humans dont date chimps idea.  :p

  
Arden Chatfield



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 29 2006,10:58   

I'll bet we were interbreeding with Bonobos. They're horny little bastards.  :p

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 29 2006,11:47   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 29 2006,15:58)
I'll bet we were interbreeding with Bonobos. They're horny little bastards.  :p

Is my webcam on? :O

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nuytsia



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,03:58   

Oh Richard....
You are such a bad boy!

   
Russell



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,06:04   

Of course, the simple (and certainly correct) statement that humans and chimps are descended from common ancestors covers a lot of different specific scenarios. This paper hints at them, but there will always be another deeper layer of detail we won't be able to nail down. If that lack of even the prospect of certainty makes one crazy, one can always become a creationist.

I know the banter about humans & bonobos is not serious, but it reminds me that bonobos and chimps diverged from one another a lot more recently than humans did from the (chimp/ bonobo) line. So when this interbreeding was going on, who knows what the (chimps/bonobos) were like? Were they more chimp-like or more bonobo-like?

There was a book a few years back by Gribbin and Cherfas called "The Third Chimpanzee" (i.e., us) that offers the interesting suggestion that proto-human ancestors, like Australopithecus, are also ancestral to chimps. I'm not sure what the current status of that idea is, other than to say that Dawkins, in "The Ancestor's Tale", pronounced it "not as crazy as it sounds" (or words to that effect).

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deadman_932



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,08:59   

Gribbin and Cherfas = " The First Chimpanzee" (Barnes and Nobel Books, 2003)  

Jared Diamond = " The Third Chimpanzee" (Harpercollins; 1st ed 1992)

I just mixed those up last month ???

Oh, and bonobos? HAWT!

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Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,09:14   

Quote (deadman_932 @ June 30 2006,13:59)
Gribbin and Cherfas = " The First Chimpanzee" (Barnes and Nobel Books, 2003)  

Jared Diamond = " The Third Chimpanzee" (Harpercollins; 1st ed 1992)

I just mixed those up last month ???


Do I have a volunteer to write "the Second Chimpanzee"?

(Or should I just set up a couple hundred of 'em with typewriters and hope for the best?)

 
Quote
Oh, and bonobos? HAWT!


Or, as James Ellroy would say, "hot, hot, hotsville!!"

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Russell



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,10:39   

First, third... I'm always mixing those up.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,11:20   

I just wish I could quit seeing all these Planet of the Apes images.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
ericmurphy



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,11:34   

Quote (Russell @ June 30 2006,15:39)
First, third... I'm always mixing those up.

One, Two, Five!

("Three," sir.)

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skeptic



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,12:08   

I'm not a subscriber so I can not follow the link but in line with the topic I thought I had read somewhere that the orangutan was our closest relative.  Is that currently accepted or under debate?

Just trying to cure some of my ignorance.

  
Arden Chatfield



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,12:27   

Quote (skeptic @ June 30 2006,17:08)
I'm not a subscriber so I can not follow the link but in line with the topic I thought I had read somewhere that the orangutan was our closest relative.  Is that currently accepted or under debate?

Just trying to cure some of my ignorance.

I've never heard that. I thought everyone (well, everyone except Dave Hawkins) agreed it was chimpanzees, then gorillas, then as a distant third, orangutans. In the Ancestor's Tale, Dawkins estimated the chimp/human split came 6 million years ago (the bonobo/common chimp split was 2 million years ago), then gorillas split off 7 million years ago, then orangutans at 14 million years ago.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
skeptic



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,12:39   

Wow, I'm way off.  I was pretty sure I had heard that.  I'm going to look that up and see what I may (or may not) have heard.

  
skeptic



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,12:42   

Here it is

The Red Ape

But I don't recall reading it, anybody read this?

  
deadman_932



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,13:43   

Yes, I read it way back when it first came out. It's bunk. The book appeared about the same time that Sibley and Ahlquist [1984] analyzed the DNA of humans, chimps , gorillas and orangutans using hybridization.

Schwartz basically puts all his money on morphology and his ..."unique" interpretations of australopiths and ramapiths/sivapiths among others. Look at his "chart" on the link you posted and he cherry-picks a bunch of osteomorphic, dental, and other characters and ..blah

He's simply wrong. He might buy his own crap, but I can't think of anyone else that does at this point.

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incorygible



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,14:30   

I think orangutans have been recognized as a definitive outgroup to the African apes and humans for over a century.  While we were shuffling around our ideas about chimps, gorillas and humans, they were never in contention (no matter how far back and forth the pendulum of ideas swung).

  
skeptic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,15:19   

pity, I've always liked the little old man imagery of the orangutan.

  
deadman_932



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,15:30   

Quote
I just wish I could quit seeing all these Planet of the Apes images.
"Oh, Ardennnnn.....Hi there, Big boy, is that a banana in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"              

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Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,15:55   

Quote (deadman_932 @ June 30 2006,20:30)
 
Quote
I just wish I could quit seeing all these Planet of the Apes images.
"Oh, Ardennnnn.....Hi there, Big boy, is that a banana in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"              

Troy: [singing] I hate every ape I see
From chimpan-a to chimpan-zee
No, you'll never make a monkey out of me

Oh my God, I was wrong
It was Earth all along

You've finally made a monkey
Apes: Yes, we've finally made a monkey
Troy: Yes, you've finally made a monkey out of me
Apes: Yes, we've finally made a monkey out of you

Troy: I love you, Dr. Zaius!




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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
deadman_932



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,16:50   

HAWT!
.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Arden Chatfield



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2006,17:18   



I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
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