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  Topic: Sexual Antagonism, A genetic theory of homosexuality.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,12:59   

Quote
Sexual Antagonism
A genetic theory of homosexuality.
By William Saletan
Posted Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 8:04 AM ET

Gay couples can't have biological kids together. So if homosexuality is genetic, why hasn't it died out?

A study published last week in PLoS One tackles the question. It starts with four curious patterns. First, male homosexuality occurs at a low but stable frequency in a wide range of societies. Second, the female relatives of gay men produce children at a higher rate than other women do. Third, among these female relatives, those related to the gay man's mother produce children at a higher rate than do those related to his father. Fourth, among the man's male relatives, homosexuality is more common in those related to his mother than in those related to his father.

Can genes account for these patterns? To find out, the authors posit several possible mechanisms and compute their effects over time. They conclude that only one theory fits the data. The theory is called "sexually antagonistic selection." It holds that a gene can be reproductively harmful to one sex as long as it's helpful to the other. The gene for male homosexuality persists because it promotes—and is passed down through—high rates of procreation among gay men's mothers, sisters, and aunts.


read the rest at Slate

Edited by stevestory on June 25 2008,13:59

   
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,13:07   

Quote (stevestory @ June 25 2008,10:59)
Gay couples can't have biological kids together. So if homosexuality is genetic, why hasn't it died out?

One simple answer to this question that's occurred to me is that in many (most?) societies, gay men are forced to be closeted and usually pressured to marry and have kids like everyone else. So in other words, in most societies gay men end up having kids anyway.

To me, this scenario would have been far more common in history than gay couples.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
jeannot



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,13:09   

I knew true twins (I'm not sure if we say that in English), one was gay and the other was not. Go figure.

  
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,13:13   

Quote (jeannot @ June 25 2008,11:09)
I knew true twins (I'm not sure if we say that in English),

The phrase in English is 'identical twins' as opposed to 'fraternal twins'.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Chayanov



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,13:16   

They seem to think homosexuality is a simple Mendelian recessive trait. Straight people are HH (where H is Heterosexual) and gay people are hh (where h is homosexual). Therefore, straight couples can only have straight children and gay couples would only be capable of having gay children. Even if this was true, then using Arden's example, you could have couples of straight (HH) and closeted gay (hh) individuals, so all of their children would be Hh (and thus carriers for homosexuality). A couple where both were Hh would therefore result in the chance result of some children being hh, and so homosexuality would still exist within the population.

Okay, so this hypothetical is complete and total nonsense, but it sounds good enough that I could probably peddle it among the creationists and they'd agree with it.

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
carlsonjok



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,13:18   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 25 2008,13:13)
Quote (jeannot @ June 25 2008,11:09)
I knew true twins (I'm not sure if we say that in English),

The phrase in English is 'identical twins' as opposed to 'fraternal twins'.

Lay off Jeannot. We knew what he meant, you linguistics fascist.

I'll bet you call them "freedom fries" too, don't you?  :angry:

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,13:27   

Quote (carlsonjok @ June 25 2008,11:18)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 25 2008,13:13)
     
Quote (jeannot @ June 25 2008,11:09)
I knew true twins (I'm not sure if we say that in English),

The phrase in English is 'identical twins' as opposed to 'fraternal twins'.

Lay off Jeannot. We knew what he meant, you linguistics fascist.

I'll bet you call them "freedom fries" too, don't you?
 :angry:

I was helping him with his English. Which, being from Texlahoma, you wouldn't know anything about. :angry:

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
jeannot



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,14:27   

Knock it off, ladies. :angry:

The literal translation from French would be "true twins" and "false (fake?) twins". I prefer the English phrase.
Anyway, these guys proved that homosexuality was not completely genetic (unless one of the brothers was not what he pretended to be).

I recall that Pr. Gavrilets, a leading theoretician in the field of speciation and natural selection, published models on the maintenance of homosexuality.

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,15:09   

Quote (jeannot @ June 25 2008,20:27)
[SNIP]

...maintenance of homosexuality.

[Extravagent effeminate voice]

Oh homosexuals are SO expensive these days.

[/Extravagent effeminate voice]

Louis

P.S. Sorry.

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,15:14   

Quote (Louis @ June 25 2008,13:09)
Quote (jeannot @ June 25 2008,20:27)
[SNIP]

...maintenance of homosexuality.

[Extravagent effeminate voice]

Oh homosexuals are SO expensive these days.

[/Extravagent effeminate voice]

Louis

P.S. Sorry.

Get your coat.  :angry:

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,15:22   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 25 2008,21:14)
Quote (Louis @ June 25 2008,13:09)
Quote (jeannot @ June 25 2008,20:27)
[SNIP]

...maintenance of homosexuality.

[Extravagent effeminate voice]

Oh homosexuals are SO expensive these days.

[/Extravagent effeminate voice]

Louis

P.S. Sorry.

Get your coat.  :angry:

Taxi for one please!

Louis

P.S I did read something vaguely on topic also btw. Wasn't there some data suggesting that homosexuality was an adaptive behaviour in groups of social primates? Group structure reinforcement, sneaky chance of slipping it to a matriarch when the patriarch's back is turned because you are not viewed as a threat because of Teh Munky Gai? I may have to hunt it down on teh webs.

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,15:34   

Quote (Louis @ June 25 2008,13:22)
sneaky chance of slipping it to a matriarch when the patriarch's back is turned because you are not viewed as a threat because of Teh Munky Gai?

Hey, that totally reminds me of that time I visited Richard last year. Remind me to tell you about it one of these days.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Steviepinhead



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,20:10   

Aren't they finding genetic difference even between true, er, identical twins now?

Like copy number differences -- don't think that's quite it, but I rely on AC to correct my Angle-ich! -- or sumpin like that...

And those can affect the level of proteins getting made.

--and if those were, like, hormones during development that were getting made at different levels, then, um...

Well, one could see how one could sketch out an argument here that took in the identical twin thing.  If one knew a little bit more about all this than, er, some pinheads.

  
keiths



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,20:39   

Channeling Gil Dodgen, I would say that the  computations described in the paper are invalid unless the computers were boinking other computers of the same sex.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,20:44   

Quote (keiths @ June 25 2008,21:39)
Channeling [URL=http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-realistic-computational-simulation-of-random-mutation-filtered-by-natural-selection-in-b

iology]Gil Dodgen[/URL], I would say that the  computations described in the paper are invalid unless the computers were boinking other computers of the same sex.

Suddenly "ram" and "hard drive" take on a whole new meaning...

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,21:19   

Not to mention back doors.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2008,03:46   

Quote (keiths @ June 25 2008,21:39)
Channeling [URL=http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-realistic-computational-simulation-of-random-mutation-filtered-by-natural-selection-in-b

iology]Gil Dodgen[/URL], I would say that the  computations described in the paper are invalid unless the computers were boinking other computers of the same sex.

That GilDodgen thing...good times, good times.

   
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