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  Topic: Sal on the EF @ The Sci Phi Show< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10756
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2007,15:11   

I'm starting a thread so as not to derail the UD thread.

Sal is responded. Can't see any math, though..


http://thesciphishow.com/forums/index.php?topic=114.120

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2007,15:57   

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 10 2007,15:11)
I'm starting a thread so as not to derail the UD thread.

Sal is responded. Can't see any math, though..


http://thesciphishow.com/forums/index.php?topic=114.120

So far all I've learned is that Sal can't spell plagiarism.

And yet somehow I thought it was his middle name...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
† † † † † † † † † † † † - Pattiann Rogers

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2007,16:39   

moved from UD thread...

At the Sciphishow Salvador responds. I think he's had something to drink.... ;)
 
Quote
the illegal article conforms to an independent pattern (some one else's writings), allows us to infer a plagerized design.  Detecting a plagerized design is detection of an intelligent design in the act of plagerism.
We know that neither chance nor regularity are adequate causes, we thus infer design.


Gotta love that thus infer design line.

Link

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10756
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2007,17:40   

More:

http://thesciphishow.com/forums/index.php?topic=114.msg2038#msg2038

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2007,20:13   

May I point out that the plagiarism analogy is very poor?  First, accusations of plagiarism can arise from "mutations" (e.g., copying without the requisite quotation marks).  More importantly, plagiarism is not about design: it's about intent.  There is no one design or set of designs that points toward plagiarism.  Rather, there are a set of resemblances (among memes?) which may be chains of words but may be something else (ideas, concepts, musical notes, etc.)  

There are about a hundred other problems with the analogy, but as the director of a writing program, I have to deal with this stuff all the time, and plagiarism is rarely clear-cut.

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 11 2007,15:28   

Sals back
Quote
If there is law in the universe, there is a Lawgiver

Lawgiver? Reminds me of someone....


--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2007,14:20   

Sal now claims to have demonstrated the EF and here it is
 
Quote
Say we have 100 sentences to compare in a passage, and the sentences were 100 characters on average in length.  What would be the rough probabliy that two authors could independently arrive at the same 100-sentence passage based on the parameters suggested by Chomsky?   10^25^100?

basic CSI with respect to the plagerism design is roughly

log2(10^25^100)  bits

One does not have to accept UPB of 500 bits, but Dembski gives good reason why this is a decent benchmark.  Many PKI encryption schemes in the 1990s were protected with a mere 64 bits.

If we saw evidence of this level of copying we would not attribute the plagiarism to :

1. chance
2. law

Whether we decide the plagiarism was an act of ID is separate issue, but the circumstantial evidence would be compelling enough in most courts of law.


Later on he's challenged
Quote
Hang on Sal, you've gone off track there. We wanted a numeric example of he EF in action.


He hits back with
Quote
I gave one for the plagerized text.

There is a comparable argument for the biological computer, and that is why I began with the notion of plagerized text.  There is the strong appearance of imitated design in human and biological computers.

and so Sal really appears to believe he genuinely gave a numeric example of an application of teh EF.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10756
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2007,14:28   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 11 2007,15:28)
Sals back
 
Quote
If there is law in the universe, there is a Lawgiver

Lawgiver? Reminds me of someone....

JUDGE TARD! I AM TEH NATURAL LAW!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Henry J



Posts: 4565
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2007,15:10   

That cartoon is somewhat dredful.
:)

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,11:13   

Sal cops out
Quote
The EF will not detect every product of an intelligent agency, only some of them.

Here is a better pattern of stone which the EF will detect:



Remember, the EF is a formalization of ordinary practice. If your recognize the building as designed, then you have applied and instance of the EF.


--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
deejay



Posts: 113
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,12:12   

I'm trying to decide whether Sal has gotten dumber since the first time I encountered him. †But is this question even worth considering?

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,12:32   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 11 2007,21:28)
Sals back
 
Quote
If there is law in the universe, there is a Lawgiver

Lawgiver? Reminds me of someone....

Don't you EVER, EVER, EVER put Sal, Sal's fictional deity and the greatest comic/cartoon in the world in the same sentence ever again. You bad bad man.

Louis

P.S. Don't even talk to me about that movie. Any D.R. and Quinch fans in the house?

--------------
Bye.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,13:47   

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 10 2007,15:11)
I'm starting a thread so as not to derail the UD thread.

Sal is responded. Can't see any math, though..


http://thesciphishow.com/forums/index.php?topic=114.120

Sal is probably the poster that I least like to read. As much as I dislike most UD posts the majority are understandable. I reckon it would take Sal a 1/2 hour to say "hello" if he speaks like he posts.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,13:50   

Quote (Louis @ July 13 2007,12:32)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 11 2007,21:28)
Sals back
Quote
If there is law in the universe, there is a Lawgiver

Lawgiver? Reminds me of someone....

Don't you EVER, EVER, EVER put Sal, Sal's fictional deity and the greatest comic/cartoon in the world in the same sentence ever again. You bad bad man.

Louis

P.S. Don't even talk to me about that movie. Any D.R. and Quinch fans in the house?

Nobody is inocent perp!

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,14:00   

I doubt English is his first language. I certainly hope English isn't his first language.

   
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,14:05   

I see Sal has a new revolutionary ID blog,

Are you prepared for...

Knights of ID

   
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,14:05   

and the equally successful

Intelligent Evolution

   
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,14:07   

GMU's IDEA club seems to be thriving...

Quote

IDEA George Mason University

Weblog of the IDEA (Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness Club), an officially recognized campus organization of George Mason University.

Tuesday, July 18, 2006
Davison on Cornell ID Class and More

This thread is to give Dr. John A. Davison a chance to give his thoughts regarding the developments in one of the nation's premiere Intelligent Design courses at Cornell. The discussion of the Cornell class is being hosted on an un-affiliated weblog:

   
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,14:25   

Quote (stevestory @ July 13 2007,14:05)
I see Sal has a new revolutionary ID blog,

Are you prepared for...

Knights of ID

If Sal has a Blog then maybe it should be subtitled
Lessons in Rhetoric.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,15:26   

KNIGHTS OF ID???????????????????

Oh now I have seen EVERYTHING!

Louis (Promptly dies!)

--------------
Bye.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,15:36   

Quote (Louis @ July 13 2007,15:26)
KNIGHTS OF ID???????????????????

Oh now I have seen EVERYTHING!

Louis (Promptly dies!)

I would just hush if I were you. Sal doesn't look like he is going to take much guff off of you.



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. †We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,16:26   

Quote (Louis @ July 13 2007,15:26)
KNIGHTS OF ID???????????????????

Oh now I have seen EVERYTHING!

Louis (Promptly dies!)

The knights of ID are represented by Monty Pythonís Black Knight.

After the Dover trial he was heard to say: ďtis but a scratch!Ē

After Ohio dropped IDís critical analysis standard he said: "I've had worse."

And then came Kansas where teach the controversy didnít quite pan out he said: "Come back you yellow bastard, I'll bite your legs off!"

I hear their next target is Minot North Dakota. They read somewhere the city motto is Why Not Minot. Either that or they threw a dart at a map and thatís where it landed.

--------------
Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
nuytsia



Posts: 131
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2007,16:52   

Quote (silverspoon @ July 13 2007,16:26)
 
Quote (Louis @ July 13 2007,15:26)
KNIGHTS OF ID???????????????????

Oh now I have seen EVERYTHING!

Louis (Promptly dies!)

The knights of ID are represented by Monty Pythonís Black Knight.

Ahhh yes...


   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2007,03:38   

Sal now wants to know about the evolution of protein binding sites. Any experts feel free to pop over and educate him. Not that that'll happen, of course, but....

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2007,05:39   

Quote (stevestory @ July 13 2007,14:05)
I see Sal has a new revolutionary ID blog,

Are you prepared for...

Knights of ID

That'll be "KiDs" then.  Sounds about right.

  
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2007,15:06   

Do they really, truly think that silly analogies are evidence fo the ID as in the ID movement?
???

Can they really be THAT stupid and naive?

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2007,17:07   

Quote (slpage @ July 16 2007,15:06)
Can they really be THAT stupid and naive?

No -- they think everyone ELSE is.  (shrug)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2007,17:08   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ July 16 2007,17:07)
Quote (slpage @ July 16 2007,15:06)
Can they really be THAT stupid and naive?

No -- they think everyone ELSE is. †(shrug)

And, in the case of most of their supporters, they are right.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Darth Robo



Posts: 148
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2007,08:39   

"Do they really, truly think that silly analogies are evidence fo the ID as in the ID movement?"

Some guy on BA blog was trying to convince me today by saying "Humans make ipods.  Biology is more complicated and THAT's evidence for ID".   ???

He/she was a persistent little so & so, too.  Accused all of the talkorigins, talkreason and PT sites to be the work of just one "closed-minded fanatic".   :D

--------------
"Commentary: How would you like to be the wholly-owned servant to an organic meatbag? It's demeaning! If, uh, you weren't one yourself, I mean..."

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2007,02:55   

Sal gives an "example"
Quote
Seems your comrades are reluctant to provide probabilities based on random chance (not selection and chance) for:

1. Turing Machines
2. Protein-Protein Binding sites  of n-amino acids

Shall they provide the numbers of shall I?  Of course if I provide the numbers you and your friends might question the authenticity, thus since I presume you want believable numbers I will let them take a stab at it.

The numbers for self-replicationg Turing Machines, I've already provided.

The numbers Behe gives for 1 6-amino-acid protein-protein binding sites are 1 in 10^20, therefore a process requiring 8 protein binding sites would be 1 in 10^160

Do you buy the numbers? If not, ask your comrades.

Since physics dictates protein configuration is not determined by law alone ( because physicsl allows many possible polymer configurations), then we go to the issue of chance.  A figure of 1 in 10^160 satisfies the improbability of rejecting chance.

The two items an object must pass to be classified as designed (or looks designed) in a very austere formal EF are:

1. not product of law

2. more improbable than 1 in 10^150 ( less remote probablity are also acceptable,  even 1 in 10^20 is promising give that there was a time PKI encryption was only about that strong) based on random chance.

Lot's of biological processes require more than 6 protein-protein binding sites.  How about the construction of the cilium?  That will do.  Easily a probability of 1 in 10^150.

There is your example.  And frankly, I gave examples several times.  Apparently you're closing your mind to them.  You can believe that natural seleciton can solve the problem of random chance.  That is your choice.  In that case you can believe natural selection can serve as an intelligent designer substitute.

But the object still satisfies the definition of something that would be labeled designed.  Whether the ultimate cause was intelligence, is you decision.  Nothing is forcing you to accept that conclusion.  You're invited to believe something so improbable can be created through the process of a mindless Blindwatchmaker.  However, I've given you an example of how we classify systems as a designed system.  As I said, even Darwinists use the term "design" in a colloquial sense as well, and that is not to far from the kinds of objects the EF will affix the term "design" to.  Whether intelligence causes all designs, is a separte issue.  The EF does not answer that question formally.


--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2007,06:54   

Quote

Accused all of the talkorigins, talkreason and PT sites to be the work of just one "closed-minded fanatic".


If you ignore that Brett Vickers and Mark Perakh made essentially anthology sites for the TOA and TR respectively, you still have the problem that there are over two dozen contributors to PT.

You don't suppose the fellow was referring to me, do you? I don't maintain TR and have as my contribution a few essays that are hosted there, usually PT posts that are picked up by them.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2007,08:52   

Quote (guthrie @ July 16 2007,05:39)
Quote (stevestory @ July 13 2007,14:05)
I see Sal has a new revolutionary ID blog,

Are you prepared for...

Knights of ID

That'll be "KiDs" then. †Sounds about right.

That "New" site is from August... 2006!  One post per year is even worse that the Overwhelming Evidence site, and I thought that was a world record for futility.

I guess that other than Hannah,  most college KIDs aren't dumb enough to fall for this crap.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Darth Robo



Posts: 148
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2007,10:04   

"You don't suppose the fellow was referring to me, do you?"

I doubt it.  I think it was his imagination of a lone single "boogieman", so he could dismiss it without having to address any criticisms of ID.  If you wanna have a laugh, here's the link:

http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog....omments

The dude I've been "debating" with is called 'contrarian'.  Everyone else has left this thread and got bored, so it's basically just me and him having a urinating contest.  BA's probably miffed at having to still moderate an old thread that nobody else cares about, with two daft gits left arguing.  

???

--------------
"Commentary: How would you like to be the wholly-owned servant to an organic meatbag? It's demeaning! If, uh, you weren't one yourself, I mean..."

  
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