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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Origins of religion

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2006,13:12    Quote Quote (afdave @ Oct. 19 2006,12:31) So tell me, O wise BWE ... what original thought have YOU had regarding Origins?  Have I been mistaken all this time?  I thought Darwin was the start of all these modern Evolution ideas and I thought it Tim Berners-Lee who invented the web at CERN.  Silly me!  All this time I should have known ... It was BWE and Al Gore! Well, So glad you asked. Let me start at the beginning. I was born a poor black child... Um. Wrong one. Let's see. Oh yes, here it is. Ok. I grew up without the yoke of religion holding me down... No, that's not it either. I was fettered with the constraints of having a botany professor for a mother and a history professor for a father so my outlook was necessarily skewed by my upbringing. I did however manage to read a bit and then I went to college and learned to understand a few things there. I'm not sure that I have many original thoughts regarding origins in terms of evidence. I have done some science, read the Bible(s) several times as well as many other creation myths, and I also have some knowledge of some other civilizations and histories, but I am not sure that anyone has ever put forth any conclusive evidence of the origin of the first life. I can see the similarities between creation myths and can understand that they are attempts to explain what the authors did not understand. I can also catalog the phenomena that the authors did not understand and the supernatural explanations given for these phenomena. A partial list:* gravity –god, * geologic processes –god, * relativity or the absence of a reference point –god, * light speed and the implications of telescopes –god, * climate –god, * dna –god, * the Americas –ummm, * the size and age of the cosmos –god. These phenomena are now partially understood by applying the scientific method to them. What's more, the science is accessible to anyone willing and able to repeat the experiments. If you were to repeat the experiments, you should get the same results. And, strangely, none of them end up needing anything specific from god. As Carl Sagan said "We grow up in isolation. We need to teach ourselves the cosmos." I have repeated some experiments and sometimes achieved different results. In college, this was extraordinarily frustrating because my professors made me figure out why. I had to do things over and over and over and over until I could isolate the variables and produce repeatable results. By the time I was trying to figure out how a certain kind of starfish could do one thing sometimes and another thing another time in what looked like identical circumstances, I had enough background in methodology and sometimes just plain information that I wasn't making assumptions like "Maybe it's doing this because it is only 6000 years old." or "Maybe Earth is only 6000 years old." Natural selection was a central tenet to my research. If it weren't, I would not have been able to do any of it. And, what's more, if it wasn't accurate at least to a large degree, then I would have not been able to reproduce results at all. The funny thing is that I never needed to consider the origin of the first life. As far as I am aware, no biologist does. All I needed to understand was the mechanism for adaptation. But when I consider religious explanations for origins, I get a very different picture. Have you read Gilgamesh? Do you know whether it predates the Torah? Religious explanations all do something peculiar. They elevate “Man” to an honorary title. They separate us from the rest of the creatures as somehow different. “Tool Using”, “Speech”, ability to “Reason” or “Love”, ability to “Farm””. It turns out that we have no such monopoly. Our presumed distinctions turn out to be just that-presumed. Our distinction turns out to be the ability to plan . We have the ability to employ past observation in the present for a future intent. Not simply storing nuts for the winter but setting aside a weapon near a tree where I will eventually provoke an argument with my rival- that kind of intent. Man employs the dimension of time . We can sense the present as space to be aware of time past and time to come. The employment of time as a dimension is what opened up all that we are today-including religion. Although memory and planning certainly exist in other species besides man, man’s memory of his past can be evaluated, now for future ends such as whacking his rival with a club unexpectedly. There is the element of surprise, the element of planning the place and the element of being prepared. Different. But using time as a dimension differs from using space. We do not occupy the dimension of time with our physical bodies.  We need to imagine it. We occupy the space with our minds. We make images of past events, use reason to evaluate them and try to construct images of future space. This talent feeds itself by including the ability to store information for [i]evaluation[\i] purposes. Leads to skins for clothes then houses then better materials then better objects from those materials then better materials and etc. Technology. The downside is that we become aware that we will die. At first, it is terrifying. But, after consideration, we realize that we can see beyond death in our time dimension we occupy so we conclude that that part of us that can employ that dimension will not die. Then we further conclude that the same is true for our friends and loved ones and because we all share sort of the same world in that time dimension we will probably occupy it together when our bodies die. Voila! Religion. Nothing wrong with the hypothesis, it is just hard to test. So all we have are guesses. And if the nature of those guesses force us to ignore evidence for how the world really works, we are all the poorer for it. Any religion which seeks the disproval of information had better use honest tactics in its effort or risk looking like you. And fundies of all religions. But Dave, these aren’t my ideas. I am paraphrasing many. Most notably, Philip Wylie, Carl Sagan, Steven Gould, Fritjof Kapra, and Ovid. And what’s more, they are subject to revision in my mind as better evidence or ideas come along. This post I wrote in the sfbDave thread got me thinking, who's got a good scenerio for the first guy who thought up god? Comedy or seriousness... Is the hypothesis testable? -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

hereoisreal Posts: 745 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2006,13:50    Bwe, a man's life is measured on his tomb stone, from beginning to end. Life has an "if" in the middle. -------------- 360  miracles and more at: http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5) It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2006,13:56    Talk and song from tongues of lilting grace, whose sounds caress my ear But not a word I heard could I relate, the story was quite clear ...Oh, father of the four winds, fill my sails, across the sea of years With no provision but an open face, along the straits of fear -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2006,14:10    Um. I like this one-- As social critters, we cooperate/ compete at various levels and part of a winning strategy is to be able to anticipate what others might think and do at a given time. This might enable me to win a mate or find a strategy that otherwise makes me successful in the group. But I have to have some sense of the "other" by projecting MYSELF into the mind of another, in an empathetic sense, and some sense of time-projection. Religion is an anthropomorphic re-casting of some basic group skills, applied to the world around us in a pantheistic/ primitive animistic manner. Animism appears to be oldest, after all, based on all the anthro material I've ever read. It's anthropomorphising the world, in a way that makes sense of it in terms of US.   We can see that some things seem to have familiar characteristics, too. Other animals seem to think, they have patterns of behavior that can be grasped. Plants have seasonality and I can anticipate when the mongongo nuts will be ripe, if I live long enough and observe closely and store this information away. Both of those things raise my stock in the group and help ensure survival.   But what about those things that don't seem to be animals, but they move and seem to have similar characteristics? The wind moves,it makes sounds. The Earth gives life, The sun makes it warm and gives light and green things can't grow good without it, just look under a rock, no grass is there, only bugs. The water moves, the mountains are tall and water runs off them like blood. The sky can be "angry," too, it can rain and flash lightning, maybe it thinks and it's like us, too. Maybe it's lots of thinking things that explain death, too, and where things go, like Krog after he fell off the tree and stopped moving. Maybe they live in groups like us. Maybe they're alive and we just can't see it. Maybe they're gods. Maybe if we treat them nice, they'll be nice. Maybe they'll let us live. None of this is testable, of course. One of the problems I always had with post-modernist (in archaeology, it's called "post-processual") anthro is that you can't read the freakin' minds of the dead as well as some people want to pretend to. It's all a "just-so" story. -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2006,14:20    Sort of testable. You could say that, given your hypothesis, the older a site, the more the religious trappings should represent anthropomorphising natural phenomena. The other side of your hypothesis might be that it developed in a certain way. Like say, eventually, those who were tasked with figuring out how to make the gods happy started figuring how to make social gain and so the more recent the site, the more we should see signs of special priviledge for priests and those who communed with the gods. Also the more complex the gods would get to justify more complex social behavior. You could do some graphs and stuff... Might be fun anyway if you could get a grant. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2006,14:21    By the way, BWE, if you like hi-quality free bootleg live shows of Zep, along with other good stuff, I've got a place for you to go especially if you have even a moderately fast line. It requires BitTorrent or one of the free analogues of it, and they don't do stupid crap with the files, like pron or anything lame. -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

incorygible Posts: 374 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2006,14:45    There was an interesting 'Quirks and Quarks' a while back on mirror neurons. If that whole thang pans out, these mirror neurons might be a requirement for the kind of empathy/anthropomorphism (i.e., the mental framework that Dennett refers to as the "intentional stance", if I recall correctly) that underlies religion under this hypothesis. Furthermore, that "stance" might then be inhibited in autists. Anyone know (has anyone ever asked?) what the prevalence of religiosity is in (obviously high-functioning) autists? Might be an avenue of testing. Or maybe I've had one too many tonight.

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2006,02:58    I seem to recall (unless it's the aftereffects of whatever it was on the "hereoiseal" thread) that the Scandinavian/Icelandic twin studies looked at both religious views and included some autists. In my personal experience, the autists I've met (I can think of 4 offhand) weren't religious at all, or had only a vague sense of it. Of course, this could be a very biased sample, given that I don't gravitate towards...well, say, people like AFDave. I've always viewed religiosity as a "Swiss Army Knife" of memes, it serves a myriad of functions for people, so there will be ways to get at it neurologically, like the Temporal Lobe Epilepsy stuff, etc.. I'm just not sure what such things would say about our distant ancestors.   The first part on empathy as selective advantage seems pretty well worked out, even if I have my reservations on chimp or other non-human primates as models. The autism part would be worth a grant from the Templeton foundation, I bet. There might be some money for a kegger after completion, too! To the Grant Cave, Batman! -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2006,05:58    I asked my wife (she teaches middle school science) about the autism/ religion link and she said she isn't aware of any studied but that religion and that kind of relationship thing is exactly what they don't do. Aspergers syndrome too. The small band of hunter gatherers might have gathered around their shaman to find out why the gods blew the #### out of the mountain.  Or they might also gather round the shaman to find out what they should do on a daily basis to keep mountains from blowing up. However, owing to the unpredictable nature of the gods, we keep a little space on the platform for a surprise visitor. A son of the best hunter in the tribe might have gotten a message from the gods that the big chief was making them angry.  Maybe the gods told him that the tribe should cast the big chief from a cliff and instate him, the son of the best hunter, as the new chief. Well now, that shakes things up a little doesn’t it! And if the son of the best hunter in the tribe is say, having a clandestine gay affair with the shaman and the shaman agrees with the son of the tribe’s best hunter that indeed, signs do point to the gods’ displeasure with the chief, then ouch! There goes the chief, off the cliff.  Wheee! Bye bye chief. And Politics is born. If these kinds of things happen too frequently or if some of the Shaman’s magic is called into question though, it might be the shaman and his gay lover going over the cliff. This inserts an element of risk into the game. So, just like we ended up with matter rather than anti-matter, the Catholics might have got lucky somewhere in the past?? Just an idea. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2006,04:27    This one is amusing. Lenny should appreciate it especially. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2006,15:21    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 23 2006,09:27) This one is amusing. Lenny should appreciate it especially. Herp humor.   -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2006,15:25    I'm sticking with the "Freeloader Hypothesis". Alas, I'm not typing it all out here.  So you'll have to do a search for it over at the PT if you want to see it.   -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Richardthughes Posts: 11177 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2006,18:34    Religion: Memetic virus. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Lou FCD Posts: 5452 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2006,03:07    Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Oct. 23 2006,20:25) I'm sticking with the "Freeloader Hypothesis". Alas, I'm not typing it all out here.  So you'll have to do a search for it over at the PT if you want to see it.   Here's the link to the comment at PT for The Freeloader Hypothesis, put forth by the Good Reverend Doctor. If I may, just for reference...   Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Apr. 20, 2006,18:37) Re: the “Mars” hypothesis of religion: I’m more of the “Freeloader” hypothesis of religion. It goes something like this: In most nonhuman primate societies, the Big Cheese, the guy in charge (and it is invariably a guy), is able to run things because he can beat up all challengers (or, in more socially-oriented nonhuman primate societies, he can build an alliance of others that will support him and beat up all his challengers). In the earliest human societies, that was probably true as well. Alas, ruling by raw intimidation is, uh, kind of wasteful of energy, time and (once you develop effective weapons) members of the social group. So it’s an enormous advantage to coerce social members without using physical methods to do it. Enter “religion”. It’s a given that all the members of the early human social group were frightened, awed and (most importantly) unable to explain or control the forces of nature. Enter the “shaman”, the guy with the “special ability” to understand and even control (or at least appear to) the unseen and incomprehensible supernatural forces (aka THE GODS). The Big Cheese, meanwhile, sees a powerful ally, and … voila. Organized religion. The Big Cheese is the Big Cheese not just because he can beat up anyone who challenges him, but he also has the shaman on his side — and that means he also has THE GODS on his side, who can REALLY REALLY beat up anyone who displeases them. Oh, and by the way, social group members, we priests/Big Cheese are terribly busy all the time with this “communing with THE GODS” thingie (you don’t want THE GODS to send another drought like they did *last* year, do you?), so you can’t possibly expect *us* to, uh, you know, WORK or anything. We’ll leave that all to you wonderfully loyal social members, who will therefore please THE GODS and make them happy by doing whatever the shaman/priests tell you THE GODS want you to do. Such as, oh, give a portion of everything you produce to us – uh, I mean, to THE GODS. And if you don’t, by golly, THE GODS will beat you up really really bad. Just you wait and see. Oh, and by the way, THE GODS want you to invade that tribe’s territory over there because I want its fruit trees — uh, I mean, THE GODS want us to punish that tribe for its sins, and THE GODS have graciously given us their land. So get to it. Me, I’ll be here with the priests, communing with THE GODS on your behalf. And indeed, organized religion has been a tool of the political/economic ruling elite ever since. Heck, in the case of most ancient societies, it WAS the ruling elite. And you know what? They STILL don’t do any work for their living. Just thought I'd help. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Artist in trainig Posts: 12 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2006,17:35    How about God?

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2006,19:13    Quote Howabout xzy? Define xzy (and everyones is different).... it is no different to to definition of nothing and everything at the same time, useless except as a means of group control ........did I hear ...bleeting? -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Artist in trainig Posts: 12 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2006,19:31    xyz: A) The strength we draw on when it seems there is no hope. B) The idea that we are small compared to the cosmos. C) The force that gives us life and breath. k.e., it's nice to be able to define God how ever you might wish. It might even be considered a luxury. I enjoy that luxury and I don't need your approval. I hope that is ok with you.

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2006,20:43    Yeah yeah pass the collection plate -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Artist in trainig Posts: 12 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2006,20:51    Why? Are you starting a homeless shelter or building a recreation center or something?

Crabby Appleton Posts: 250 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2006,21:18    Quote (Artist in trainig @ Oct. 25 2006,22:35) How about God? OK, which one?

Artist in trainig Posts: 12 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2006,21:26    That would be for you to figure out now, wouldn't it?

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2006,05:17    Quote Artist in trainig   Posted on Oct. 26 2006,01:51 Why? Are you starting a homeless shelter or building a recreation center or something? Would that it were so. I think some of the money might go to propogate someone else's idea of god rather than mine. I think mine is a little unorthodox. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

ScaryFacts Posts: 337 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2006,06:33    Quote (BWE @ Oct. 26 2006,11:17) Would that it were so. I think some of the money might go to propogate someone else's idea of god rather than mine. I think mine is a little unorthodox. I tried organized religion, now I'm trying disorganized religion.  I prefer the latter. Most of the time/energy/resources of organized religion go to supporting the infrastructure.  A very small amount goes to actually DOING anything. No one doubts Christ's impact was radically different than most men.  The role of his church is, supposedly, to help others be like Christ. I doubt anyone would argue that thousands of Christ-like individuals would have a positive impact on the world. The problem is this:  The organized church doesn't produce people who act like Christ.  It can't be fixed. Oh, and to keep this post completely on topic: Origins of religion?  There's a Darwin shaped hole in each of us...

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2006,07:03    Quote ScaryFacts - I tried organized religion, now I'm trying disorganized religion.  I prefer the latter. Which might be AiT's point. I notice no mention of yaweh. I invented my own religion when I was very young (>10) and I have not found a single inconsistency in it yet. I am still an adherent. AiT, i fear, might not be totally honest with (him?)self. I obviously don't know that for sure though. Quote There's a Darwin shaped hole in each of us... now that's an interesting statement. Are you saying something like "ignorance is bliss?" -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

ScaryFacts Posts: 337 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2006,08:26    Quote (BWE @ Oct. 26 2006,13:03) Quote There's a Darwin shaped hole in each of us... now that's an interesting statement. Are you saying something like "ignorance is bliss?" If one is searching for bliss alone, then ignorance is the fastest way to get there. That's why organized religion works so well and is so well funded--you pay your dollar and you get socially digestable bliss, packaged to fit into whatever world view you happen to prefer. If, on the other hand, your faith is truly about changing your life and benefiting the lives of those around you, ignorance will never work.  You have to ask tough questions.  You have to accept inconvenient truths. For creationists, you have to look at facts--like Darwin--and determine if your faith is consistent with the known universe or if you made it all up. I have been able to reconcile my faith with what I know thus far.  It hasn't always been easy and it certainly has not been comfortable. But then again, becoming a better human being never is.

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2006,09:46    scary   Quote If one is searching for bliss alone, then ignorance is the fastest way to get there. That's why organized religion works so well and is so well funded--you pay your dollar and you get socially digestable bliss, packaged to fit into whatever world view you happen to prefer. If, on the other hand, your faith is truly about changing your life and benefiting the lives of those around you, ignorance will never work.  You have to ask tough questions.  You have to accept inconvenient truths. Kind of a "first answer is good enough, now let's stop thinking" kind of approach. Quote 1. Long, long ago, before your mother or your grandfather was born, when Mother Earth and Father Sky were still children, they played games in the dark room of night.  As they played, the door to the room opened just a crack.  A small piece of light entered the room.  Father Sky jumped on it, covering it with his hands.  Mother Earth moved closer to see the wonder but Father Sky turned his back to her in jealousy.  Mother Earth waited to see what he would do with it. 2. Father Sky hunched over his new plaything, molding it and shaping it with his hands.  Mother Earth moved closer to see what he had done.  Father Sky brought his hands up to his chest and threw them up into the darkness as if he was releasing a sparrow.  A blinding flash filled the room.   As the two watched, the heavens sprang forth.  The children squealed in delight.  Father Sky went out to play in his new creation, ignoring Mother Earth as he rushed.  He hurled stars into planets and took delight in the fiery chaos. 3. Mother Earth, watching from a distance, soon grew tired of this violent game.  She quietly left her place and hid herself in the form of a small planet far from where Father Sky was playing. She began sculpting the raw materials of the world she created into animal and plant forms.  Presently, she made a game where her forms would grow and change into other forms.  She shared her love of beauty, joy and contentment with her creations.   4. Eventually, she made a creature wild and beautiful covered with hair and walking on two feet.  She called the creature Haman.  She created men and women and gave them the gift of speech so she could talk to them.   5. The creatures learned to see the beauty she had created in the sunrises and sunsets.  They learned to laugh when the icy water from a waterfall fell over their heads and shoulders. And when they got old or fell prey to an accident, they were not afraid because their bodies returned to Mother Earth and she reshaped their bodies into new bodies.  And they took delight in the wildness of her creation.  Mother Earth was happy. 6. Father Sky went into a rage when he discovered Mother Earth had gone off without telling him and he started searching the universe for her.  When he finally discovered her trick, he hid on the planet’s moon and watched her.  He grew fascinated with her creations and learned to make wild things himself.  He spent a good deal of time watching her hamans.  Their rituals, games and diversions, intrigued him but he didn’t know what beauty was, so he didn’t understand most of what they were doing.   7. He decided to punish Mother Earth for hiding from him so he changed her into the planet forever.  Then he made his own creations that he called Ooman (because he liked it better than Haman).  They were like Mother Earth’s Hamans but that they had no hair on their bodies and they were cunning.  They liked to mold and shape the surface of their planet to fit their desires.  They built houses to escape the wind and the rain.  They diverted water from the rivers to water their crops.  And Father Sky was pleased.   8. Ooman was also cruel.  He hunted the hamans and made war on them.  Father sky gave them the gift of fire to help his ooman.  Ooman used the fire to burn the forests and chase the humans off the land.  They made weapons out of the trees and rocks that mother Earth had made and killed the hamans mercilessly. The Hamans went to Mother Earth and asked for her help.  She created a giant upheaval in the planet’s crust, which killed many of Father Sky’s ooman and created caves and other hiding places for her hamans to escape the hunters.   9. Now ooman was clever and cunning and cruel for the most part, but one young man among them was not as cruel as the rest.  He didn’t enjoy killing.  He killed only what he could eat and no more.  He rarely hunted hamans and only went when others in his tribe forced him to go.  Mother Earth had a plan. 10. She went to this ooman in the disguise of a young woman in his tribe.  She taught him the language of the hamans and convinced him that he should go and meet them.   11. Father Sky, realizing what she was up to, decided to rid the world of the hamans once and for all.   He gathered all the oomans together and made them go and chase all the hamans to the edge of a great cliff overlooking the sea where they would either be slaughtered or be pushed to their deaths.  Because he started in secret, Mother Earth only had time to hide one of her hamans, a young girl, in a cave before the rest of her people were driven to the edge of the cliff. 12. Because the hamans were not afraid of death, they simply threw themselves over the edge of the cliff to escape the fury of the oomans.  Mother Earth wept in pity and sorrow as she saw her wonderful creation being destroyed by the oomans.  But before any of them hit the water below, she changed them into dolphins and they swam away into the ocean where they still play and enjoy the beauty of Mother Earth today.   13. The oomans, bewildered by the magic of Mother Earth, went up to the edge of the cliff to peer at the wonder below.  But the weight of so many made the cliff grow unstable and it collapsed into the sea taking every ooman with it.  Except one.  The one Mother Earth had taught the language of the hamans could not bear the thought of driving them into the sea so he stayed back.   15. He was standing near the mouth of the cave where the young girl was hiding.  When everything was over, she came out from her hiding place and was surprised to see him.  Mother Earth cast a spell on them and they fell in love.  Their children were cunning and clever, but they also loved beauty and play.  She decided the children should be called Human.  Ever since, humans have looked out to the oceans and appreciated the wildness of nature. But, to avoid a A rough idea I worked on for a while for a children's book. I believe strongly in the metaphor as a tool of understanding. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

ScaryFacts Posts: 337 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2006,10:07    Quote (BWE @ Oct. 26 2006,15:46) A rough idea I worked on for a while for a children's book. I believe strongly in the metaphor as a tool of understanding. Pretty cool.  You should publish it. I have thought for some time I would like to create stories and songs for my future grandchildren to teach them things about our family, morals, faith, fidelity.

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