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  Topic: Louisiana, Antievolution advances< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2008,10:37   

General comments about Louisiana and antievolution go here.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2008,10:38   

Please contact Gov. Jindal to ask him to veto SB 733, a measure that would allow teachers to do whatever they want when it comes to evolutionary science.

See my letter to the governor here.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2008,12:31   

According to Robert Crowther over at  the Disco Institutes Evolution News & Views you have been riled up By Barbara Forrest to flood Governor Jindal with hate mail

 
Quote
Forrest’s new “coalition” is trying to rile up activists to flood Governor Jindal with hate mail.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008....ml#more

The propaganda from these folks is so transparent it makes me sick & laugh at the same time.

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Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2008,21:35   

I'm having trouble figuring out what the "hate" part of my letter to Jindal might be.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2008,21:52   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 21 2008,22:35)
I'm having trouble figuring out what the "hate" part of my letter to Jindal might be.

Dear Mistar Jindal. Please stop acting like a retard. I hate it when yoo doo that.

Sinseerly,
Mistar Elsberry

PS I sure could use me some french-friend pertaters mmmmm-hmmmm.

Edited by stevestory on June 21 2008,22:54

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2008,21:53   

Wes, I cannot see the least chance that Jindal- a far-right Republican- will be at all influenced by anything we can do.

Even the Louisiana Democrats overwhelmingly support ignorant superstition over reason.

This is the SCOUS window, although I would rather it heard in some other Circuit. But maybe even this is a good deal becasue a stupid judgment is easier to overturn.  But if it is too stupid, then the important issues will be lost in the bonfire.

OOHH I do not know!

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
midwifetoad



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2008,23:40   

My hate letter was pretty short and simple. I said I felt sorry for the taxpayers of Louisiana who would have to foot the bill for a loosing court case that would cement and extend the Dover and Aguillard decisions.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
skeptic



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(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,11:06   

anybody got a link to the text of the bill?

  
Albatrossity2



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Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,12:07   

Quote (skeptic @ June 22 2008,11:06)
anybody got a link to the text of the bill?

Man, you really are a lazy git.

Here's the bill. Enjoy.

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Assassinator



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(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,14:12   

1 Thing though: hate mail is nothing more then contra-productive here. I doubt anything will help, but if you try, do it seriously.

  
1of63



Posts: 126
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,14:29   

Maybe we should ask for the bill to be extended so that schools can "teach the controversy" and critically examine the strengths and weaknesses of othe subjects as well - like, say, religions.

I wonder what Governor Jindal and the citizens of the fair state of Louisiana would say to that.

Assuming the reply is repeatable in polite company, of course.

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I set expectations at zero, and FL limbos right under them. - Tracy P. Hamilton

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: June 23 2008,07:04   

The Gov is more likely thinking about this:

Quote
The Louisiana Legislature adjourns today. Gov. Bobby Jindal should mark the occasion by vetoing the session's most offensive and self-centered legislation: the 123-percent pay raise lawmakers gave themselves.

It won't be easy for him. He's said repeatedly that he won't veto the measure, and if he does now, he will have misled lawmakers. But if he doesn't veto it, he will have misled voters, breaking an unambiguous promise he made on the campaign trail to "prohibit" raises such as this.


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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
skeptic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2008,16:05   

honestly this reads more like a mission statement than a law.  Obviously Section D seems ridiculous but overall the bill seems lacking in any regulatory action to achieve its mandate.  As a practical matter it doesn't appear that this is going anywhere until the first court challenge.

  
Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,06:02   

Wesley,

To me this bill seems like yet another back door for antievolution books like "Pandas" and yet another incidence of "strengths and weaknesses" rhetoric. Wasn't this appraoch totally destroyed by the Pelosa vs Capistrano case (IIRC)?

Louis

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Bye.

  
skeptic



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,07:19   

I think it remains so vague on actual implementation that it will require challenge to legally determine whether precedent applies.  Read without Section D it could easily hold given a proper defense (i.e., one made sans Behe, et. al.).  The curious thing is it would appear to me that Section D is a trap to give a challenge standing.  Maybe I'm thinking too much conspiracy here.

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,07:36   

Skeptic, derail this thread again, find yourself on The Wall.



Quote
Aseo, by Daquella manera


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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Advocatus Diaboli



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,08:50   

How would DI react to a lesson on theistic evolution in the classroom? Encourage it or rage about darwinian indoctrination?

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I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

"I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot

"Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova

"UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



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Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,09:09   

Heck, even mentioning that TE exists on a website garnered a lawsuit from the IDC fringe.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Texas Teach



Posts: 1431
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,11:06   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 25 2008,07:45)
Now that does bring up something else... these laws protect teachers both ways. A teacher who would like to bring religious antievolution materials into the classroom as an object lesson in dreck that claims to be science but isn't could also use such a law for doing so. The problem is that every moment spent exposing dreck is one taken away from trying to get students to understand the science that has passed muster. Responsible teachers are going to begrudge or abhor waste like that.

Unlike the Freshwaters of the world, I'd bet that any explicit mention that the religious propaganda wasn't science would lead to the first steps to that lawsuit by the next period, not 11+ years later.  Not that the teacher wouldn't win, but good science teachers tend to have less of a martyr complex.

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,12:47   

Quote
The problem is that every moment spent exposing dreck is one taken away from trying to get students to understand the science that has passed muster. Responsible teachers are going to begrudge or abhor waste like that.


As a former student, I'm still confused about why it is a waste to teach a bit of history about how major discoveries were made and confirmed. I don't think you have to go int church bashing, but I think it would be useful to teach high school kids that ideas aren't the result of virgin births.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,17:23   

We have a rule here about discussion of moderation, Skeptic. I've sent the two comments to the BW. Consider yourself on notice.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,18:26   

You were warned, Skeptic.  Twice.

Welcome to The Wall.



Quote
toilleti, by Nika.


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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Albatrossity2



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(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2008,07:29   

Jindal seems to be taking his time with the creationism bill, but did find time yesterday to sign a bill allowing chemical castration of sex offenders.
If I'm not mistaken, this sort of thing was also practiced by the Nazis. Maybe he didn't get to see Expelled!.

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3992
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2008,15:58   

Jingo is facing a recall petition because he didn't veto the pay raise for legislators. Unfortunately this is more damaging than being stupid.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3992
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 29 2008,09:40   

Quote
Jindal watches goodwill evaporate
Sunday, June 29, 2008
Stephanie Grace

Of this, there can be no dispute: Gov. Bobby Jindal's honeymoon is over.

The consensus at home is that Jindal lost his luster by declining to veto the Legislature's lavish pay raise. But Jindal is also playing to a national audience these days, and on that front, he's taking a different sort of hit.

While Louisiana voters are up in arms over the revelation that Jindal is not above cutting political deals, the deal killer elsewhere in the country could be an unrelated bill that he signed last week, state Sen. Ben Nevers' "Louisiana Science Education Act."


http://www.nola.com/news....&coll=1

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 29 2008,09:44   

Thanks MWT.

From the same article:

   
Quote (Stephanie Grace of the Times-Picayune @ Sunday, June 29, 2008)
The bill never mentions that evolution is almost universally accepted among scientists as the basis for modern biology.

And it skips right over the key fact that the effort is backed by the same archconservatives who've trying to force religiously based doubts over the theory, either in the form of creationism or its successor "intelligent design," into science classrooms for years now.

Those efforts have been consistently rejected by the courts, which explains another artful bit of misdirection: The bill explicitly disavows the promotion of any particular set of religious beliefs. That directly contradicts the goal of its most ardent supporters, including the Louisiana Family Forum, which in and of itself should raise plenty of questions over just what was going on here.

Still, the obfuscation made it hard to argue the merits of the bill, and in the end, even many of the lawmakers who knew better threw up their hands and voted yes.

When asked about Darwinism, Jindal responds with his own fuzzy catch phrase, which he trotted out on the campaign trail last fall and again during a recent appearance on CBS's "Face the Nation." He claims he wants students to be exposed to "the very best science."

On the television show, he went further, arguing that he didn't want facts and theories withheld from students out of "political correctness." It was all part of a circular response to a direct question that he never answered: whether he himself has doubts about the theory of evolution.


(emphasis mine)

Color me shocked at this completely new tactic.

Good to know the issue is coming to the forefront on the national stage.

ETA a little more to the extract.

Edited by Lou FCD on June 29 2008,10:56

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 29 2008,10:09   

Digg the article up:

On Digg.com

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Reginald Beasley



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Joined: April 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,14:01   

Of course the bill has been signed and Louisiana is going to lose tons of taxpayer dollars this Fall as it has to fight the unconstitutional bill.

It's also a detriment to LSU, Tulane, ULL, ULM, and LaTech who will have to adjust their curricula to include a "No, evolution actually does occur and your science teachers didn't know what they were talking about" class.

But we're told not to worry, all this bill allows is to bring in supplementary texts.  Has anyone looked at these supplementary texts?

Here's an example of a supplementary text endorsed by the Louisiana Family Forum (who fought hard for this bill, though I'm not sure if they wrote any of the language or was an official sponsor or what):

http://textaddons.com/

Take a look at some of the textbook-quality questions you can find in their "What is your Evolution IQ?" section:

It has been known that the peppered moth pictures in biology textbooks have been staged since the
moths are nocturnal. Why are these still being taught as examples of evolution?

About Archaeopteryx: This fossil is generally accepted as being a bird with a few reptilian characteristics. Since there are
modern birds with the same reptilian characteristics and its supposed immediate ancestors occur
higher in the fossil record than it appears, why is this fossil considered transitional?

The odds of insulin (51 amino acids long) forming spontaneously by accident is the same as
winning the Power Ball lottery 15 times straight. Is it reasonable to assume that one of the
smallest living organisms (H39 mycoplasma) with its 4,864,000 total chemical compounds could
ever form? Justify your answer.

If mutations are the building blocks of macro-evolution why hasn’t something other than a
deformed fruit fly appeared since the fruit fly has been forcibly mutated millions of times.  [Yes there was actually no question mark on this one]

Darwin observed that there are gaps in the fossil record and wrote that this posed a serious
problem for his theory. Since the gaps still exist how is it possible to say that macro-evolution is a
fact?

...With macro-evolution one would expect a gradual increase in
the number of species present as time goes by. With the reported mass extinctions and Cambrian
Explosion the number of species shoots very high during this period and then decreases abruptly at
times as time goes by to where there is only 5% of the species that once inhabited the earth now
present. Doesn’t this contradict the macro-evolution concept?

There's 58 more like those, plus PDFs that talk about this bs for specific textbooks.  Nothing like loaded and/or rhetorical questions to teach students how to 'think critically.'

On the bright side, it shouldn't be too damned hard when this goes to trial to just point out "Uh, these are classic creationist canards, obviously the motive is the same."

Also, the LFF links to Answers in Genesis, which is an Absolutely Epic Fail.

  
Albatrossity2



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Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,14:47   

Quote (Reginald Beasley @ July 13 2008,14:01)
Here's an example of a supplementary text endorsed by the Louisiana Family Forum (who fought hard for this bill, though I'm not sure if they wrote any of the language or was an official sponsor or what):

http://textaddons.com/

I'd be willing to bet that the whole lot contains nothing but recycled creotard canards, just like EE and TDoL.

They sure went out of their way to get good biological information in those things. The link containing information about the authors of the add-ons is quite informative as well. Can engineers get more arrogant than this?  
Quote
Charles Henry Voss, Jr. was born of American missionary parents in China. He grew up in Baton Rouge, La. and obtained a B.S. and a M.S. in Electrical Engineering from LSU. His Ph.D. was obtained from North Carolina State University. He retired from LSU as a F. J. Haydel, Jr./ Kaiser Aluminum Professor in the Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering at LSU in 2003 after serving 43 years on the faculty at LSU. His research and publications were in the biomedical area and include heart pacemakers, artificial hearts, hearing aid design, protection for Hansen’s disease patients and bio-telemetry applications.

An engineer, by definition, has to have an intimate knowledge of science. He must have a practical understanding of science since he cannot design a desired object using speculative theories. A degree in an engineering field requires that the student be able to digest, analyze and critique material, examine the different ways that the materials may be used in design and then finally use this information in design. This is what he was trained to do in obtaining a Ph.D. degree and what he has been doing as his job for the past 40 years. As an engineering professor and chairman of the Departmental Curriculum Committee for 29 years it was his responsibility to make sure that this ability was imparted to students.

The laws of physics and mathematics provide the basic building blocks for all branches of engineering. A life scientist who posits a theory which is contrary to the foundational knowledge of physics and mathematics is on shaky ground. He should not be given the assumption of correctness merely because he is a specialist.

He is Vice-president of Origins Resource Association
<www.originsresource.org>

Reviewers of the addenda include a physical chemist PhD, someone with a degree in "physical science" from Orange Coast COllege CA, a lwyer with a BS in biology, another PhD chemsits, a veterinarian, a linguistics PhD, an education PhD, a teacher with a M.Ed. and a BS in physics, a mechanical engineer, and a retired Baton Rouge high school science teacher...

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
olegt



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(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,15:54   

Charles Voss, the author of the add-on text, is vice president of Origins Research Association.  
Quote
Origins Resource Association is a nonprofit organization of scientists, educators, and citizens concerned about what we see as the brainwashing of our society into an unquestioning belief in evolution. Our mission is to furnish resources to help counter this trend.
  ORA began in 1980 under the name Louisiana Citizens for Academic Freedom in Origins, or LCAFO. (You can see why we changed to a shorter name!) The organization was founded to furnish material and expertise to the state of Louisiana in support of the "Balanced Treatment Act." This Act contained two main provisions: (1) Evolution could be presented in Louisiana public schools as theory but not proven scientific fact; and (2) Public school students should also be exposed to whatever evidence favored creation.


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Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,19:03   

Orange Coast College CA is a 2 year school.  The 'highest' degree offered is an Associate of Arts.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
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