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  Topic: Judgement Day: Intelligent Design on Trial, anyone else watching the PBS show?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:25   

This PBS show is pretty good so far.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:32   

As I was turning it on and listening while making a salad, a woman from Dover said " 'In the beginning, God created-'...I don't need to know anything else."

I thought FtK lived in Kansas. ;-)

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:37   

They showed a clip from some Discovery Institute DVD. While the DI voice over talks about scientists doing research, the DVD shows Michael Behe in a lab coat, which should make anyone chuckle, and Stephen Meyer giving in a lecture.

One hard thing for anyone who moderates here is, the only approprate response to that is "Fucking lying bastards." yet we need to not have that kind of intemperate speech around here.

Good luck Lou.  :p

Edited by stevestory on Nov. 13 2007,20:39

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:39   

I just saw Professor Steve Steve!

Wooohoooo!

   
Hermagoras



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:47   

Let the liveblogging continue!

What's with the inevitable scenes from Inherit the Wind?  Do we really need to see the first Darren from Bewitched?

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Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:48   

I am not looking at this thread until after the show.  We on the best coast still have 2.25 hours to wait.

LALALALALALLALALLA (I'm not looking)>>>


Actually, I have watched arguements in sign language.  Facinating, IF YOU SHOUT, you make signs BIG.  The ultimate power trip is to grab someones hands and sign with your free hand.  The maximo shutdown is to close your eyes, or to turn around.

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stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:51   

"Evolution is just a theory. It ain't Darwin's Fact. Or Darwin's Law. It's Darwin's Theory."

--several tards, such as Bonsall and Buckingham.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,19:52   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Nov. 13 2007,20:48)
I am not looking at this thread until after the show.  We on the best coast still have 2.25 hours to wait.

LALALALALALLALALLA (I'm not looking)>>>


Actually, I have watched arguements in sign language.  Facinating, IF YOU SHOUT, you make signs BIG.  The ultimate power trip is to grab someones hands and sign with your free hand.  The maximo shutdown is to close your eyes, or to turn around.

that's really neat, actually.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,20:00   

The guy talking about the red sox in the dramatization is a horrible actor.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,20:06   

The Rehms, who teach bible school and oppose the lies of Intelligent Design, are getting attacked as atheists in their community. No surprise. And no surprise that the Discovery Institute didn't want to talk to NOVA.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,20:08   

One flaw in the reenactments is that Eric Rothschild is not played by a CGI Bruce Lee, and Nick Matzke is not played by Denzel.

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,20:21   

"I'm like Zsa-Zsa's fifth husband. I know what to do, I just can't make it exciting."

--Scott Minnich

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,20:22   

Okay. No more liveblogging. Had to switch to House.

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:05   

All in all it was pretty good, but they didn't take the gloves off.  The IDCH got a pretty gentle treatment, all things considered.  It was fair and informative, but I'd have roasted their asses.

OK, that's probably why NOVA hasn't hired me to do it.

They hit all the highlights, from Dembski et. al running away to "Astrology is Science" to "Breathtaking inanity".  I enjoyed it.

Buckingham hasn't changed a bit, and has learned exactly nothing.  He's still bitching, whining, and lying his ass off for Jesus.

... and still saying "Creationism".

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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:09   

Really, the only thing I can think of that would have made it better would have been the pre-trial thoughts from DaveTard and some "someone died on a cross 2000 years ago" footage from the school district meeting.  It's a shame there's no actual video of the trial or the school board meetings.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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carlsonjok



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:19   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 13 2007,21:09)
Really, the only thing I can think of that would have made it better would have been the pre-trial thoughts from DaveTard and some "someone died on a cross 2000 years ago" footage from the school district meeting.  It's a shame there's no actual video of the trial or the school board meetings.

You'll just have to console yourself that Dave's comments about Judge Jones were documented in Edward Hume's "Monkey Girl".  

Whenever I think of that, I have to chuckle.  Dave sees himself as the great cultural warrior and, when the day comes that he is lowered into his grave, his great legacy will be him with his foot in his mouth.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:19   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 13 2007,22:05)
Buckingham hasn't changed a bit, and has learned exactly nothing.  He's still bitching, whining, and lying his ass off for Jesus.

... and still saying "Creationism".

The essential contradiction of Intelligent Design is you have to tell the credulous idiots it's really creationism, while telling the sophisticated people it's not creationism at all.

That center can never hold.

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:28   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 13 2007,19:25)
This PBS show is pretty good so far.

The Discovery Institute not replying was a HUGE mistake.

ID is PWNED!!11ONE!!11!!!

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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,21:31   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 13 2007,22:19)
Whenever I think of that, I have to chuckle.  Dave sees himself as the great cultural warrior and, when the day comes that he is lowered into his grave, his great legacy will be him with his foot in his mouth.

Y'know, that's always worth quoting in full...

Quote (DaveTard the Culture Warrior @ 9/30/2005, 3:03PM)
Have more faith, Bill!

This is all about Judge Jones. If it were about the merits of the case we know we’d win. It’s about politics. Look at the Cobb county case. A sticker that did no more than mention a plain fact, that evolution is theory not a fact, was ruled a violation of the establishment clause. Incredible! A local school board saying evolution is a theory is, in some twisted logic that just makes me shudder, a law regarding an establishment of religion. Har har hardy har har. Right. In a pig’s ass (pardon my french). Clinton appointed Judge Clarence Cooper made a ridiculous ruling that was faithful to the left wing overlords that he serves.

Judge John E. Jones on the other hand is a good old boy brought up through the conservative ranks. He was state attorney for D.A.R.E, an Assistant Scout Master with extensively involved with local and national Boy Scouts of America, political buddy of Governor Tom Ridge (who in turn is deep in George W. Bush’s circle of power), and finally was appointed by GW hisself. Senator Rick Santorum is a Pennsylvanian in the same circles (author of the “Santorum Language” that encourages schools to teach the controversy) and last but far from least, George W. Bush hisself drove a stake in the ground saying teach the controversy. Unless Judge Jones wants to cut his career off at the knees he isn’t going to rule against the wishes of his political allies. Of course the ACLU will appeal. This won’t be over until it gets to the Supreme Court. But now we own that too.

Politically biased decisions from ostensibly apolitical courts are a double edged sword that cuts both ways. The liberals had their turn at bat. This is our time now. We won back congress in 1996. We won back the White House in 2000. We won back the courts in 2005. Now we can start undoing all the damage that was done by the flower children. The courts have been the last bastion of liberal power for 5 years. It was just a matter of time. The adults are firmly back in charge. The few wilted flower children that refused to grow up will have to satisfy themselves by following the likes of Cindy Sheehan around ineffectually whining about this, that, and the other thing. They’ve been marginalized.


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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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N.Wells



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,22:00   

It's probably worth quoting the post by Dembski to which Bill was responding:
Quote
Life After Dover
William Dembski

Before the Dover trial concludes, I want to offer some remarks about what I take will be its long-term significance. I want to do this now so that critics won’t be in a position to accuse me of spinning or rationalizing the outcome of the trial once it is reached (of course, they’ll still find fault, but that’s par for the course).

As I see it, there are three possible outcomes:

  1. The Dover policy, in which students are informed that the ID textbook Of Pandas and People is in their library, is upheld.
  2. The Dover policy is overturned but the scientific status of ID is left unchallenged.
  3. The Dover policy is not only overturned but ID is ruled as nonscientific.

For what it’s worth, my subjective probabilities are that outcome 1. has about a 20% probability, outcome 2. has about an 70% probability, and outcome 3. has less than a 10% probability. (Part of what prompts these numbers is that the ACLU is completely outmanning the Thomas More Law Center, which is defending the Dover policy. When I was an expert witness in the case, TMLC had one full-time person on the case and two or three part-timers. The ACLU, by contrast, had at least twelve full-timers on the case.)

Of course, I regard 1. as the best outcome for ID. That’s not to say I think the Dover policy is particularly astute. Indeed, that’s why the ACLU has come to this case both guns blazing, namely, because the policy is less than optimally formulated and they hope that they can take down not only the policy but also ID with it (their model is what happened to creationism in Edwards v. Aguillard in the 80s).

Fortunately, ID is in a much stronger position scientifically than creationism, so the ACLU faces a much tougher opponent than back then (go, for instance, here and here). Unfortunately, members of the Dover school board have, through their actions, conflated ID with an apparent religious agenda. For instance, it doesn’t help the ID side that William Buckingham, then a member of the Dover school board, in trying to get the Dover policy adopted, remarked: “Two thousand years ago somebody died on the cross, can’t somebody stand up for him?” (Go here.)

If the policy is upheld, it will embolden school boards, legislators, and grass roots organizations to push for intelligent design in the public school science curriculum. As a consequence, this case really could be a Waterloo for the other side.

But will outcome 2. or 3. constitute a Waterloo for ID? Outcome 2. certainly won’t. It may make policy makers more cautious about how they incorporate ID into educational policy. But it certainly won’t stop them, especially with Santorum language in the Federal Government’s education policy (go here).

That leaves outcome 3. Although I would hate to see this happen, mainly because of all the young people who would continue to be indoctrinated into a neo-Darwinian view of biological origins, this would hardly spell the end of ID. For one thing, ID is rapidly going international and crossing metaphysical and theological boundaries. The idea that ID is purely an “American thing” can no longer be sustained. Interest is growing internationally and it will continue to grow regardless of the outcome of the trial. Also, ID is of great interest to college and graduate students, so these ideas will continue to be discussed.

But the most important thing to understand about this case is that the significance of a court case depends not merely on the judge’s decision but also on the cultural forces that serve as the backdrop against which the decision is made. Take the Scopes Trial. In most persons minds, it represents a decisive victory for evolution. And yet, in the actual trial, the decision went against Scopes (he was convicted of violating a Tennessee statute against teaching evolutionary theory).

Thus, unlike outcome 1., which would be a Waterloo for the other side, I don’t see outcome 3. as anything like a Waterloo for our side. It would make life in the short-term more difficult, and it certainly would not be pleasant to have to endure the gloating by the other side, but the work of ID would continue. In fact, it might continue more effectively than under outcome 1., which might convince people that ID has already won the day when in fact ID still has a long way to go in developing its scientific and intellectual program.

To sum up, we might say that outcome 1. would be a recipe for complacency, outcome 2. would encourage us to take greater care and try again, and option 3. would inspire us to work that much harder for ID’s ultimate success. I trust that Providence will bring about the outcome that will best foster ID’s ultimate success. The important thing is ID’s intellectual vitality.

Whether favor or adversity is, at least for now, the best tonic for ID’s intellectual vitality remains to be seen.


It's clear that the outcome was Dembski's #3.  It is not clear that ID has continued to grow, and the only metaphysical boundaries that it has been crossing lately are ones associated with ethics and unwitting comedy.  It is more clear than ever that "ID still has a long way to go in developing its scientific and intellectual program."  

Science has continued to make nifty new discoveries since Dover, as it would have done no matter what legal judgement was reached.  ID has produced approximately nothing (a few more bogus arguments from Behe, and nothing of substance from Dembski, except for a flap over cafeteria access at Baylor).  Moreover, that's probably just about all the cdesign proponentsists would have produced if they had won in Pennsylvania.

And, yes, the producers did a great job with that program.  Way to go, PBS!

  
Doc Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,22:01   

Yep, the Disco Inst looked like Major Twits by not responding to PBS.

Behe, especially.

At least good old Phillip Johnson had the backbone to speak his mind.

I like how Johnson referred to Behe as the "thick end of the wedge."

I'd call Behe "thick," too.

  
N.Wells



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,22:05   

Well, they'd likely have looked even worse if they had responded.

  
ck1



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,22:34   

The real heroes - the science teachers.  Very impressive group.

And too bad there was no time for Mike Argento.

  
Reciprocating Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,23:18   

A lot of Judgment Day was more effective than I expected - such as the explanation vis cooption/exaptation of the secretory system into the flagellum.

Although I've read much of the key testimony, it was interesting to put faces to the key protagonists.  

I laughed aloud a the cdesignproponentists passage, and wished they had done the search/replace thing.  

My only problem with the program was the Twilight Zone courtroom set. What was up with that? I would have gone for a more realistic reenactment. Plus the courtroom acting wasn't so hot. Too bad the thing wasn't taped.

But, as ck1 notes above, I felt deep admiration for the science teachers in Dover and the parents who brought suit - as well as respect for the Dover community itself for having thrown the bums out in the ensuing election. I cheered for the teachers at one point.

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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,23:43   

Which side was Behe on?

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Ptaylor



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2007,23:52   

For those like me afflicted by the tyranny of distance there is a good step by step liveblog of the show over at Pharyngula.

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skeptic



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:07   

Anybody know if this will be available online?  I flipped over and saw that it was on but this is my Bones/House night and nothing interrupts that.

  
someotherguy



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:14   

Quote (skeptic @ Nov. 14 2007,00:07)
Anybody know if this will be available online?  I flipped over and saw that it was on but this is my Bones/House night and nothing interrupts that.

Go here on November 16th.

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Evolander in training

  
Nomad



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:18   

I whooped with joy when the part came when Behe had all the books and papers on the immune system dumped on his desk.

"that's an old lawyer trick, of course he couldn't say he's read them all" says Phillip Johnson.

Clearly he couldn't.. or else he'd have known he was speaking out of his ass on that one..


Yeah, they didn't entirely take the gloves off, but I think that was the point.  The wedge document called for fair coverage on NOVA.. so.. they got it.

And yet they're still not happy.  There's just no pleasing these people.

  
Mr_Christopher



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:19   

I loved the transitional fossil:

"cdesign proponentsists"

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Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:21   

"Behe refused *several* requests to be interviewed for this show". Gee, why?

Buckingham's redneck rant about Jones was cute, too.

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Altabin



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:32   

Quote (Nomad @ Nov. 14 2007,07:18)
I whooped with joy when the part came when Behe had all the books and papers on the immune system dumped on his desk.

"that's an old lawyer trick, of course he couldn't say he's read them all" says Phillip Johnson.

Although perhaps he might have read them before writing a book in which he dismissed them so confidently.

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Doc Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:38   

Creationists only get interviewed if they can control the horizontal and the vertical, that is, all the questions and all the answers.

I will never understand why Behe agreed to be part of Kitzmiller.  He was pinned from "hello."

Maybe he learned a lesson.

  
Annyday



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,00:59   

It might be pure lawyer theater to dump a ton of material on top of a witness and say it contradicts him.

However, the honest thing to do presented with material you haven't read is to say you're quite sure you haven't read all of it, but you would have to review it to definitively state that it doesn't contradict your position.

... but, hey, you know, whatever. Behe was coaxed into shooting himself in the foot by saying he knew more than he did, and then he complained that it wasn't fair to count it against him.

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snoeman



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,01:02   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 14 2007,00:21)
"Behe refused *several* requests to be interviewed for this show". Gee, why?

Buckingham's redneck rant about Jones was cute, too.

It wasn't "cute"; it was teh awesome.  I was hyperventilating at the spectacle of a holier-than-thou Christian calling Judge Jones a jackass after having:

1. Knowingly pursuing a course of action that was very likely to be illegal (the original push for creationism in Dover)
2. Participating in, or at least condoning, burning of a piece of art that was offensive to you
3. Circumventing the decision of the more reason-based members by appealing for help to the particular place that would be most likely to sympathize
3. Concealing the source of the largess
4. Money shot: Get caught committing perjury on the matter in a federal court

When it comes to raw, naked stupidity, Buckingham and Bonsell are The Show.

[Edited for marginally better sentence construction.  Even that's debatable.]

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,02:03   

Rob Pennock and I drove to York Haven and got to view the NOVA show in the company of all but one of the KvD plaintiffs, Eric Rothschild, Steven Harvey, Richard Katskee, Vic Walczak, Genie Scott, Kevin Padian, Barbara Forrest, Laurie Lebo, and Burt Humburg.

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Mister DNA



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,02:49   

I just finished watching and I gotta say, I really enjoyed it.

I liked the Tree of Life animation and I thought they did a great job of explaining the sciency stuff in layman's terms.

I even liked the courtroom reenactments; I love shows like Forensic Files* and City Confidential, so the poorly acted courtroom scenes were bonus, IMO.

Does anyone else besides me think that the lawyer from the PA ACLU looked a lot like David Patrick Kelly? (Culture Warriors, come out and plaaaaay-ay!)


I can't help but wonder what exactly were the DI's demands that weren't kosher will journalism standards? Did they demand that all of Judge Jones' segments have farty noises in the background?

* It's a shame - even with cameras being barred from the proceedings - that Court TV didn't cover Kitzmiller v. Dover; before the network became obsessed with celebrity trials, they used to feature some pretty interesting civil cases.

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olegt



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,03:35   

Casey Luskin has just posted a longish rebuttal to Judgment Day on his blog.  With like a zillion links to his boring old articles.  But there are some gems that just catch your attention.  
 
Quote
During her Kitzmiller testimony, Barbara Forrest testified that Discovery Institute sought to impose "theocracy," and PBS quotes her making statements to a similar effect. This is a blatantly false claim, for Discovery Institute has adamantly opposed any attempts to create "theocracy."

Did I miss an epic fight?

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Annyday



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,03:47   

Quote
The fictionalized scene shows Dr. Minnich saying that he had not performed the experiment. But this scene is highly misleading because Dr. Minnich did testify about his own genetic knockout experiments that showed the bacterial flagellum is irreducibly complex, and could not evolve in a Darwinian fashion.


It's funny how he, or Behe at least, admitted this was a flawed test, but this doesn't make it into the DI blog. It was only a two hour documentary, covering the meaningless tests they DID run instead of the ones they should have run but didn't would have taken up time needlessly.

Also, have the Nova folks seen this one? He might be right about one or two points, like which DVD the DI sent to one of those on their side. Since Nova actually has integrity, they might want to revise such errors, if true.

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"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
carlsonjok



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,06:31   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Nov. 13 2007,22:01)
Yep, the Disco Inst looked like Major Twits by not responding to PBS.

For a group intent on "Cultural Confrontation & Renewal", the Discovery Institute sure seems to have a tendency to run away all skeered and whatnot.

Their idea of cultural confrontation is apparently to run all willy-nilly back to their happy place in Seattle, hastily lock the doors and turn out the lights, peak through the curtains, and when they are sure that you are not looking petulantly shake their fist at you.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
fusilier



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,06:57   

I know they only had two hours, but....

My Beloved and Darling Wife couldn't understand why I was laughing out loud at the scene with Ken Miller wearing a mousetrap as a tie-clip.

fusilier
James 2:24.

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fusilier
James 2:24

  
Albatrossity2



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,07:01   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 14 2007,00:21)
"Behe refused *several* requests to be interviewed for this show".

Not according to FtK! in her per-usual parroting of ENV.



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Has been obligated from the beginning
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As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
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Zachriel



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,07:30   

In case you missed it—from Panda's Thumb.
Quote
PvM: Many viewers seem to have been surprised by the transitional fossil between creationist and cdesign proponentsists so here is an original posting by Nick Matzke on Missing link: “cdesign proponentsists”

A classic in the annals of Intelligent Design.


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csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,07:59   

Watching DI/ID being hoisted by their own trial/deposition testimony: $1,000,000

Listening to a policeman-turned-perjurer call Jones a "jackass" who "went to clown school instead of law school":  $1,000,000

The transitional link - cdesign proponentsists - laid bare on national TV: priceless!

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,09:00   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Nov. 14 2007,13:01)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 14 2007,00:21)
"Behe refused *several* requests to be interviewed for this show".

Not according to FtK! in her per-usual parroting of ENV.


DISHONESTY
MAKING
ME
MAD
...
CAN'T
CONTROL
RAGE
...
MUST
LEAVE
OFFICE
AND
GO
INTO
LAB

Louis

P.S. ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, lab goodness.

--------------
Bye.

  
Annyday



Posts: 583
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,09:36   

... I don't think they ever said "inexplicably". They said "standard journalistic practices", directly.

--------------
"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,09:43   

well, the picture is by TroutMac so if it's deeply dishonest then he's happy to go along with it.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,09:44   

Can I view that show online? I don't think it's being broadcasted here in Holland and I'm dying to see it.
Quote
DISHONESTY
MAKING
ME
MAD
...
CAN'T
CONTROL
RAGE
...
MUST
LEAVE
OFFICE
AND
GO
INTO
LAB

I HATE labs :P The dangerous stuff and all the safety crap make me icky ^^

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,09:53   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Nov. 14 2007,13:01)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 14 2007,00:21)
"Behe refused *several* requests to be interviewed for this show".

Not according to FtK! in her per-usual parroting of ENV.


[CROSSPOST]

I just submitted this at Reasonable Kansans:

Quote
Right, that's it. I'm really fed up now. FtK, is there a conspiracy to suppress ID? Yes or No?

You absolutely point blank state there isn't, and anyone who says there is is a little overzealous, or a tad OT or loopy or whatever.

Yet you constantly double back with pictures like that, or with statements like "You know that Walt Brown/Behe/Dembski/whoever wouldn't be able to get into a mainstream journal, so why should they submit/why are you having a go at them for not being?" (paraphrasing of course).

You constantly swing wildly towards "nudge nudge conspiracy, they have all the ID papers locked up in a basement" and when called upon it claim thats absolutely not what you believe.

Which is it? It has to be one or the other and frankly, you're either trying to hide your real feelings from people, and trying to pander to both crowds, or you simply haven't got a clue WHAT you believe and just accept whatever you read at face value unless challenged on it.


--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,10:15   

Quote (Assassinator @ Nov. 14 2007,10:44)
Can I view that show online? I don't think it's being broadcasted here in Holland and I'm dying to see it.
Quote
DISHONESTY
MAKING
ME
MAD
...
CAN'T
CONTROL
RAGE
...
MUST
LEAVE
OFFICE
AND
GO
INTO
LAB

I HATE labs :P The dangerous stuff and all the safety crap make me icky ^^

The PBS.org website states that the entire program will be available online on 11/16.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,10:16   

PZ's comments re: the DI's complaints about Judgement Day

For Assassinator:

The programme will appear here on Friday the 16th of November 2007. I'll be watching it!

Louis

P.S. I don't remember much Dutch I'm afraid, and that I can remember I certainly cannot spell and is certainly useless. "Mein geschlachtsorganen doet pijn" and "stoned als een geernal" seem to be all that memory has dug up. Where in the Netherlands are you?

P.P.S. You hate labs? {faints in shock}

--------------
Bye.

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,10:38   

It appears that DIs 'problem' with PBS is that PBS wouldnt let them use PBS's footage for propaganda pieces or money.

Quote
DI agrees that any use of such recordings will be limited to DI's commenting upon or reviewing the NOVA program or other related internal DI uses, and shall not be used for purposes unrelated to commenting upon the specific NOVA program, such as but not limited to, fundraising, lobbying, general advocacy, or in any publicly exhibited media.


That was unacceptable to DI.

  
Annyday



Posts: 583
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,10:47   

Being depicted on NOVA was a specific part of the Wedge document. I think they just specified that crap because they knew it wouldn't be accepted and wanted to be able to act indignant about not being included.

--------------
"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,11:06   

Well, I didn't get to see the show at all - I left a message for snorglebarky to tape it, but I got home so late I don't know if he did...
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Nov. 14 2007,06:01)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 14 2007,00:21)
"Behe refused *several* requests to be interviewed for this show".

Not according to FtK! in her per-usual parroting of ENV.


Oh, sure. That's convincing. Well, cry me a river.

Did FTK also hear that Michael Behe was supposed to come on the Galapagos trip with us, but Eddie Tabash and I stole his underwear and ditched him in the men's bathroom at the Mpls/St. Paul airport?

See how easy it is to make up conspiracy theories? :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,11:39   

Thanks Louis :P Btw, pretty randomn sentences you know :D Mijn (Mein is German) geschlachtsorganen doet pijn." = My genitals hurt. And "Stoned als een garnaal" = Stoned like a schrimp. I live in the middle of Holland, in the south-western tip of a province called Gelderland.
And yea I hate labs, at least what I have to do in labs with my Bio-Informatics study. What do you have to do in labs then?

Can't wait for it to come online, it sure sounds hilarious :P

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,12:44   

Here's the dastardly "leaked" PBS memo regarding the Evolution series, which ENV quotemines, folks. (Because they're still bitching about that, too.)

Original sources, Ftk. Original sources. Original sources.

"We must be respectful of all audiences and view points"

*Sigh* Not that it does them any good.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,13:38   

I was thinking about cdesignproponentsists and wondered what other transitional forms we may find buried at other strata. Like:

- Gintelligentdesignerod

- Deteachthecontroversyception

- Rescienceligion

Others?

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,13:45   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 14 2007,13:38)
I was thinking about cdesignproponentsists and wondered what other transitional forms we may find buried at other strata. Like:

- Gintelligentdesignerod

- Deteachthecontroversyception

- Rscienceligion

Others?

IsBillaac NewtDembskion

6 Th4.5 Billionousand years old

TaDave Springerrd

--------------
CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,14:38   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Nov. 14 2007,09:43)
well, the picture is by TroutMac so if it's deeply dishonest then he's happy to go along with it.

Ironically, the mousetrap (labeled IC) that Behe is holding in that picture is broken.  LOL.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,15:27   

Smathematiciannakeoilsalesman

Hjournalistack

Idautodidactiot

Aposcholarshiplogetics

Fresearchiction

Ciscientificmovementrcus

Closecretlabsset

Flipeereditedmflam

Ibuncod

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,15:40   

someguysBaylorResearchLabwebsite

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,16:13   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Nov. 14 2007,13:38)
 
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Nov. 14 2007,09:43)
well, the picture is by TroutMac so if it's deeply dishonest then he's happy to go along with it.

Ironically, the mousetrap (labeled IC) that Behe is holding in that picture is broken.  LOL.

Yeah, well, didn't someone at UD recently lament the folly of trying to improve on nature ('s moustraps)?

:p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,16:26   

I've observed that the smathematiciannakeoilsalesman, idautodidactiot and hjournalistack generating most of the aposcholarshiplogetics and fresearchiction (conducted in closecretlabssets) supporting the ciscientificmovementrcus known as ibuncod have forgone phony flipeereditedmflam volumes and otherwise pretending to do rscienceligion, or even advocating "deteachthecontroversyception," and have more or less admitted the identity of the gintelligentdesignerod.  

Too bad.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,18:26   

I enjoyed the interview with Phillip Johnson. I agree, though, that they really dropped the ball by not including DaveScot. (If only he had been at the Dover school board meeting, he would have shut down any talk of Jesus right quick!)

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,18:42   

I wonder if anyone here knows just what Nova's "normal journalistic conditions" happen to be?  

Just curious. It would be interesting to know what the DI fellas were demanding, as well.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,18:49   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 14 2007,19:42)
I wonder if anyone here knows just what Nova's "normal journalistic conditions" happen to be?  

Just curious. It would be interesting to know what the DI fellas were demanding, as well.

I saw an answer to that somewhere today, but I can't remember the specifics or where I saw them.  The truth is out there, Bill.

X-files reference notwithstanding, seems like it had something to do with the DI not being happy that they wouldn't be allowed to use the footage for nefarious purposes including, but not limited to fart videos.

:)

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,19:08   

Quote
aposcholarshiplogetics


Best transitional word EVAH.
F'ing great.

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,19:54   

Habehesbeen

Poinfuseinformationof

Ddavescotouchebag

Geabiogenesisnesis

Hensttestableidhypothesiseeth

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2007,21:40   

http://discussions.pbs.org/search.....tart=45

One can pull up all of a usernames posts
on one thread.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,02:42   

Quote (Assassinator @ Nov. 14 2007,17:39)
Thanks Louis :P Btw, pretty randomn sentences you know :D Mijn (Mein is German) geschlachtsorganen doet pijn." = My genitals hurt. And "Stoned als een garnaal" = Stoned like a schrimp. I live in the middle of Holland, in the south-western tip of a province called Gelderland.
And yea I hate labs, at least what I have to do in labs with my Bio-Informatics study. What do you have to do in labs then?

Can't wait for it to come online, it sure sounds hilarious :P

LOL Like I said I don't really know any useful Dutch (apart from "thank you", and given my terrible spelling last time I'm not even attempting aufstubleift....damn!). Those phrases are poorly remembered from an Amsterdam trip (with a Dutch friend who thought they were hilarious to teach to English people) over a decade ago. And I speak/write German a good bit, so that might explain my misuse of "mein/mijn" etc. Oh well!

What labs? I work in a synthetic chemistry lab (well increasingly I work in my office, but I'm fighting the man! They'll get my round bottom flask when they pry it from my cold, dead hands! ;-) ).

I love lab work. It's the forefront of research for me. Sure I love reading the journals and developing research ideas and liasing with other scientists from other disciplines in other departments (which a lot of my work entails), all of which are essential to progress a project, but nothing beats getting into the lab and working to get new results yourself. There is no feeling in the world that comes close to getting a good result after (often years of) hard graft. The realisation that after trying very very hard you've got a quick peek up Mother Nature's Skirt is very fulfilling!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,02:51   

And just to keep in with Bill's excellent work:

evevilatheistconspiracytoremovejesusfromsocietyolution

peprocessbywhichtheevilatheistdarwinistoppressorskeepthetruthhiddenerreview

lyperfectlyacceptabletoolinpromotingiding

deaprocessforevaluatingevidencethatcontrdictsonesworlviewnial

josomethingthatwecannotpublishinbecausewehavenoresultsurnal

reaprocessofdiscoveringdatathatwedonotengageinbecauseitsscaryanddoesntgiveresultswelikesea
rch

Ok that's enough.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,09:28   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 15 2007,07:59)
Quote (hereoisreal @ Nov. 15 2007,08:48)
http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=87204

Zero

Zero, the thread you point to is just your incoherent ramblings, then questions about its relevance, then you pointing to your webpage which apparently also has nothing to do with this discussion.

As such, it seems to be nothing more than spam advertising for your website.

Please demonstrate the relevance of that link to this discussion, or refrain from posting such things outside your thread.

Thanks,
Lou

Hey zero I'll level with you and in good faith.  Your posts about numerology make you look mentally ill.  If that's your objective then consider yourself a success.  

Every now and then you *appear* to posess some intelligence but it's difficult to give you the benefit of the doubt when the majority of your comments suggest a mental problem exists, or at the very least a significant lack of judgement and very poor social skills.  Your posts are virtually NEVER on topic.  And if you haven't noticed not a single person here pays any attention to your numerology, they make fun of you instead.

That said you seem like a decent enough chap and you don't have to accept evolution (or reality for that matter) to post here but you could actually become a valued contributing participant if you'd knock of the links to your site and post your numerology on other sites where people might actually care and/or have an interest in them.

Posting comments that are *on topic* would be a great place to start.  Feel free to keep posting your ideas on numerology in the "zero ressurected.." thread but keep in mind such mindless comments only support the notion that you have a serious mental problem.

Or you can continue to portray yourself as someone who's ill and in need of help.  The choice is yours.

Cheers!

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Annyday



Posts: 583
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,10:28   

By the way, if you really do like numerology you should try Crowley and kabbala. It's just more fun.

--------------
"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
EoRaptor013



Posts: 45
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,11:30   

This comment has been removed by PM request of the author, EoRaptor. -- Lou

Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 15 2007,13:17

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,11:44   

Indeed, let's try to get this thread back on track.

It's beginning to wander afield again.

Don't we have an old thread on child-rearing or something?  I seem to recall we did, and EoRaptor's experience would certainly provide an interesting point of view in such a thread.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,11:45   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 13 2007,19:37)
They showed a clip from some Discovery Institute DVD. While the DI voice over talks about scientists doing research, the DVD shows Michael Behe in a lab coat, which should make anyone chuckle, and Stephen Meyer giving in a lecture.

One hard thing for anyone who moderates here is, the only approprate response to that is "Fucking lying bastards." yet we need to not have that kind of intemperate speech around here.

Good luck Lou.  :p

The DI whiners are complaining that the PBS show was 'lying' because they really sent the DVD version of 'Icons...' not Unlocking...  Because that is just a great big lie!

But I got a chuckle out of seeing Meyer in that clip as the DNA narrator was talking about scientific research....

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1706
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,12:43   

Casey Luskin refines his whining about Judgement Day, at http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007....ml#more

Quote
Paula Apsell’s Lessons Not Learned from the History of Science

Paula Apsell was the executive producer of PBS/NOVA’s “Judgment Day: Intelligent Design” documentary, which tries to inaccurately paint ID as a creationist idea that has been refuted by science. But in fact, a few years ago Ms. Apsell produced a different NOVA documentary entitled “Mystery of the Megaflood.”

For a geologist like me, it’s a fascinating tale about how mainstream geologists took decades to accept that the view giant post-glacial flood was responsible for much of the bizarre geological features found in eastern Washington. According to Apsell’s “Megaflood” documentary, a geologist in the early 1900s named J. Harlen Bretz proposed a catastrophic local flood theory to explain this geology.

Bretz was ridiculed by his contemporary geologists because his ideas reminded them of a creationist Biblical global flood. The documentary says that Bretz challenged the “orthodox view” and was labeled as promoting creationist “heresy” that “defied all scientific convention.” Of course, Bretz’s theory was not a creationist explanation. He did not propose a global flood—he simply proposed that a localized post-glacial flood in eastern Washington caused the geological features he observed. But his critics used the “creationist” label to oppose his views as unacceptable. That is, until the evidence won out.

About 100 years later, Bretz’s view has been vindicated and because the evidence won out over false accusations that he was promoting creationism. Does this story sound familiar? Paula Apsell’s “Judgment Day” documentary does to ID precisely what Bretz’s contemporaries did to him: it tries to marginalize ID with false claims that it is creationism and makes fallacious claims that ID has been scientifically refuted. Emboldened by the misguided opinion of one federal judge, Apsell labels ID as creationist “heresy.”

Perhaps Apsell should review her own “Megaflood” documentary and take a lesson from history: 100 years from now, after ID’s scientific revolution is complete, Paula Apsell’s “Judgment Day” documentary may be shown in high school science classrooms studying ID to warn students not to wrongly label powerful scientific ideas as “creationist heresy” simply because they challenge the orthodox scientific view.

Casey might find it instructive to pursue this comparison just a little farther to learn the lessons from the J Harlan Bretz affair (that's J no period Harlan Bretz).  In 1923, when Bretz first published, geologists had spent the previous hundred years and more crawling out from under the wreckage of bible-based geology, and thus had excessive aversion to anything that hinted even slightly of gigantic floods and other biblical megacatastrophes.  It is true that most geologists' aversion was excessive, and blinded them to Bretz's correct interpretation of the channeled scablands.

However, here is where the story becomes instructive for ID and points them up as being ignorant in the ways of science and uninterested in research.

In 1927, a huge discussion about the Channeled Scablands was arranged at the Geologiical Society of America.  Most people disagreed with Bretz.  Following that, Bretz (and a USGS colleague, J.T. Pardee) continued working in the Channeled Scablands, collecting data to make their case.  In the late 60's enough convincing evidence had been found  that Bretz's interpretation became accepted.  In 1979 (two years before he died), the Geological Society of America awarded Bretz its Penrose Medal, which is at worst one of the top two awards in Geology (we don't have Nobel prizes in our field, but the Geological Society of London offers an more or less equally prestigious award.)

So the take-home message is that if the scientific mainstream rejects your ideas unfairly, you should go out and do the research and obtain the evidence that will convince them.

It is additionally worth pointing out that in the 1920's Bretz's evidence was not as convincing as it was later, and did not fit comfortably into the knowledge base of the time concerning ice age events in the Pacific Northwest (some advances in the 1950's and 1960's made Bretz's story much more plausible).  Most notably, Bretz did not launch a nationwide crusade to have his ideas taught in high school classes.  He never called on processes for which there was absolutely no evidence, and he insisted on evidence-based discussion.  As far as I recall from his papers, he never once misrepresented the arguments of the opposing side.

Also, geologists were worried that Bretz's ideas were Catastrophist, not Creationist.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,12:54   

Quote (N.Wells @ Nov. 15 2007,12:43)
Casey Luskin refines his whining about Judgement Day, at http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007....ml#more

 
Quote
Paula Apsell’s Lessons Not Learned from the History of Science

Paula Apsell was the executive producer of PBS/NOVA’s “Judgment Day: Intelligent Design” documentary, which tries to inaccurately paint ID as a creationist idea that has been refuted by science. But in fact, a few years ago Ms. Apsell produced a different NOVA documentary entitled “Mystery of the Megaflood.”

For a geologist like me, it’s a fascinating tale about how mainstream geologists took decades to accept that the view giant post-glacial flood was responsible for much of the bizarre geological features found in eastern Washington. According to Apsell’s “Megaflood” documentary, a geologist in the early 1900s named J. Harlen Bretz proposed a catastrophic local flood theory to explain this geology.

Bretz was ridiculed by his contemporary geologists because his ideas reminded them of a creationist Biblical global flood. The documentary says that Bretz challenged the “orthodox view” and was labeled as promoting creationist “heresy” that “defied all scientific convention.” Of course, Bretz’s theory was not a creationist explanation. He did not propose a global flood—he simply proposed that a localized post-glacial flood in eastern Washington caused the geological features he observed. But his critics used the “creationist” label to oppose his views as unacceptable. That is, until the evidence won out.

About 100 years later, Bretz’s view has been vindicated and because the evidence won out over false accusations that he was promoting creationism. Does this story sound familiar? Paula Apsell’s “Judgment Day” documentary does to ID precisely what Bretz’s contemporaries did to him: it tries to marginalize ID with false claims that it is creationism and makes fallacious claims that ID has been scientifically refuted. Emboldened by the misguided opinion of one federal judge, Apsell labels ID as creationist “heresy.”

Perhaps Apsell should review her own “Megaflood” documentary and take a lesson from history: 100 years from now, after ID’s scientific revolution is complete, Paula Apsell’s “Judgment Day” documentary may be shown in high school science classrooms studying ID to warn students not to wrongly label powerful scientific ideas as “creationist heresy” simply because they challenge the orthodox scientific view.

Casey might find it instructive to pursue this comparison just a little farther to learn the lessons from the J Harlan Bretz affair (that's J no period Harlan Bretz).  In 1923, when Bretz first published, geologists had spent the previous hundred years and more crawling out from under the wreckage of bible-based geology, and thus had excessive aversion to anything that hinted even slightly of gigantic floods and other biblical megacatastrophes.  It is true that most geologists' aversion was excessive, and blinded them to Bretz's correct interpretation of the channeled scablands.

However, here is where the story becomes instructive for ID and points them up as being ignorant in the ways of science and uninterested in research.

In 1927, a huge discussion about the Channeled Scablands was arranged at the Geologiical Society of America.  Most people disagreed with Bretz.  Following that, Bretz (and a USGS colleague, J.T. Pardee) continued working in the Channeled Scablands, collecting data to make their case.  In the late 60's enough convincing evidence had been found  that Bretz's interpretation became accepted.  In 1979 (two years before he died), the Geological Society of America awarded Bretz its Penrose Medal, which is at worst one of the top two awards in Geology (we don't have Nobel prizes in our field, but the Geological Society of London offers an more or less equally prestigious award.)

So the take-home message is that if the scientific mainstream rejects your ideas unfairly, you should go out and do the research and obtain the evidence that will convince them.

It is additionally worth pointing out that in the 1920's Bretz's evidence was not as convincing as it was later, and did not fit comfortably into the knowledge base of the time concerning ice age events in the Pacific Northwest (some advances in the 1950's and 1960's made Bretz's story much more plausible).  Most notably, Bretz did not launch a nationwide crusade to have his ideas taught in high school classes.  He never called on processes for which there was absolutely no evidence, and he insisted on evidence-based discussion.  As far as I recall from his papers, he never once misrepresented the arguments of the opposing side.

Also, geologists were worried that Bretz's ideas were Catastrophist, not Creationist.

What you are trying to say then, is that Bretz, through his own words and actions proves that he would not have a chance in hell to be successful in the Exciting World Of ID Theory.

I think Casey has this lesson down.  

He is such a LLuskiniar!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Steverino



Posts: 411
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,13:17   

This was on the PBS Blog from a Chip W:

"The court can rule however it wants.
I'm sure I speak for many Christians when I say: I know the answers; I'm not interested in the truth."


This is to be a joke....this is just to good.

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- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

   
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,15:22   

Damn, that PBS Forum has some quality Clueless Newbie-grade Tard going on.

Hopefully some of them *cough*Dedicatedstudent*cough* will eventually get tired of getting spanked and make the move to UD where they can learn from the masters and provide us with some Industrial Grade Tard.

The PBS Forum would benefit greatly from a Joe G. appearance...

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Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Annyday



Posts: 583
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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,15:31   

You know he'd only be murdered by an amnesiac.

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"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
Kristine



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Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,16:35   

Hey, this wouldn't be Buckingham, would it?
Quote
Id is not science, it's fact. Why do you keep slamming creationists? You are lost in need of a savior. Try Jesus!

Linky :D

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

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"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,16:53   

Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 15 2007,16:35)
Hey, this wouldn't be Buckingham, would it?
 
Quote
Id is not science, it's fact. Why do you keep slamming creationists? You are lost in need of a savior. Try Jesus!

Linky :D

Hmmm... there's a poster there with the nick "Truthisfree" whose name - according to his sig - is Rany Buckingham. Any relation?

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CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,19:42   

I've put up three pictures out of the batch I took at the 2007 Dover reunion here.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4807
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,00:32   

cdesign proponentsists gear thread

First up:



I have some ideas that I'm working on. If anyone wants to contribute an idea for me to implement, go ahead and mention it here.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,06:32   

Mr. Christopher posted this in a new thread, but as it sort of pertains to Judgment Day as well, I'll cross post it here:

Quote
Sorry if this has already been posted but I just now stumbled upon it via a Google Alert.  It's good reading.  There are links to other great articles.  FtK will have a ball!


Documentary Explores Key Case on 'Intelligent Design'

The PBS series NOVA airs a documentary Tuesday about a 2005 landmark Pennsylvania court case that found it unconstitutional for schools to teach "intelligent design" as an alternate theory to evolution. The judge who decided the case reflects the legal battle.


I liked this from the interview:

Quote
JEFFREY BROWN: This was a case, though, that did receive so much attention. And you yourself, I understand, received death threats. How is it like personally to be so involved?

JOHN E. JONES III: Very surprising. And you'll hear me say in the documentary tonight that, if you had told me that in an establishment clause case I'd get death threats, I would have been surprised, but you never know.

And, indeed, I did have marshal protection after the case, which was kind of disappointing, given the nature of the case, but it was very, very hotly contested and very controversial. It still is. There are people lined up on both sides of this issue.

A significant number of Americans, if you poll, believe that creationism ought to be taught, either supplanting evolution or alongside of evolution. And, again, you ask how the judiciary works. We protect against the tyranny of the majority.

JEFFREY BROWN: The tyranny of the majority?

JOHN E. JONES III: We don't follow public opinion polls. We are countermajoritarian. We rule as according to the law and the Constitution, which means that, just like Brown v. Board of Education -- you know, you can go back in history -- sometimes we render opinions that in their time are very unpopular, but that's the nature of Article III of the United States Constitution.


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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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csadams



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,06:44   

"Topic too hot for WKNO"

Quote
To viewer David O. Hill, 67, a retired FedEx pilot, the WKNO decision was like refusing to show a Civil War broadcast for fear it would offend some Southerners or a broadcast about Nazi atrocities in World War II "for fear it would offend some Germans in the viewing audience."

"I'm a supporter of and love this station. I really appreciate what service they do, but when they step out of line like this it violates the whole premise of what NPR and PBS stand for nationally ... This was an historical review of an important judicial decision in America, and they chose not to do it."

Hill's education and background also factored into his reaction. An ornithologist, he said he was trained as a biologist.

"Evolution is as important a building block to biology as atomic theory is to chemistry and gravitation to physics. I can believe in the Easter Bunny or the Loch Ness monster more easily than that the universe is only 6,000 years old."


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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,07:14   

Quote (csadams @ Nov. 16 2007,07:44)
"Topic too hot for WKNO"

 
Quote
To viewer David O. Hill, 67, a retired FedEx pilot, the WKNO decision was like refusing to show a Civil War broadcast for fear it would offend some Southerners or a broadcast about Nazi atrocities in World War II "for fear it would offend some Germans in the viewing audience."

"I'm a supporter of and love this station. I really appreciate what service they do, but when they step out of line like this it violates the whole premise of what NPR and PBS stand for nationally ... This was an historical review of an important judicial decision in America, and they chose not to do it."

Hill's education and background also factored into his reaction. An ornithologist, he said he was trained as a biologist.

"Evolution is as important a building block to biology as atomic theory is to chemistry and gravitation to physics. I can believe in the Easter Bunny or the Loch Ness monster more easily than that the universe is only 6,000 years old."

What's really disappointing about that attitude is that it's exactly the same attitude that's got us here in the first place.  Even if the IDCH can't ever manage to get itself into public schools again, disguised in any tuxedo, what it has done is to make enough of a fuss that evolution is avoided in high school biology classes like the plague.

If students aren't taught how science, specifically biological evolution, works, they are then open to the IDCH BS and the cycle continues, the war never ends.

It's important that in our battle to keep the religious fantasy out of the classroom, we not forget to fight to get actual education back into the classroom, and not simply leave a vacuum.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
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Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,07:15   

Quote (csadams @ Nov. 16 2007,07:44)
"Topic too hot for WKNO"

 
Quote
To viewer David O. Hill, 67, a retired FedEx pilot, the WKNO decision was like refusing to show a Civil War broadcast for fear it would offend some Southerners or a broadcast about Nazi atrocities in World War II "for fear it would offend some Germans in the viewing audience."

"I'm a supporter of and love this station. I really appreciate what service they do, but when they step out of line like this it violates the whole premise of what NPR and PBS stand for nationally ... This was an historical review of an important judicial decision in America, and they chose not to do it."

Hill's education and background also factored into his reaction. An ornithologist, he said he was trained as a biologist.

"Evolution is as important a building block to biology as atomic theory is to chemistry and gravitation to physics. I can believe in the Easter Bunny or the Loch Ness monster more easily than that the universe is only 6,000 years old."

Copublicservantswards.

From PBS Editorial Standards and Policies:

F. Courage and Controversy

PBS seeks content that provides courageous and responsible treatment of issues, and that reports and comments, with honesty and candor, on social, political, and economic tensions, disagreements, and divisions. The surest road to intellectual stagnation and social isolation is to stifle the expression of uncommon ideas; today's dissent may be tomorrow's orthodoxy. The ultimate task of weighing and judging information and viewpoints is, in a free and open society, the task of the audience. Therefore, PBS seeks to assure that its overall content offerings contain a broad range of opinions and points of view, including those from outside society's existing consensus, presented in a responsible manner and consistent with the standards set forth in these Standards and Policies.

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,08:31   

It must be Friday... Joe G has made an appearance at the PBS Forum.

This is gonna be great!

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CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,08:33   

Someone sad the show would be online on friday, is it there already and if so what's the site?

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,08:37   

Quote (Mister DNA @ Nov. 16 2007,08:31)
It must be Friday... Joe G has made an appearance at the PBS Forum.

This is gonna be great!

He has also announced his candidacy over at UD.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,08:37   

Quote (Assassinator @ Nov. 16 2007,08:33)
Someone sad the show would be online on friday, is it there already and if so what's the site?

It's posted here in 12 chapters; you'll need Quicktime.

--------------
CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,09:05   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 16 2007,01:32)
cdesign proponentsists gear thread

First up:



I have some ideas that I'm working on. If anyone wants to contribute an idea for me to implement, go ahead and mention it here.


With permission from Wes (I balked at plugging "the competition" here without asking first), here are some more:

Some of PZ's commenters are also working on some slogans and Tshirts etc.

Here's some, here, here, and here, all from this thread at Pharyngula.

Hopefully, they'll all catch on and become ubiquitous.

Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 16 2007,10:05

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,09:47   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 16 2007,08:37)
Quote (Mister DNA @ Nov. 16 2007,08:31)
It must be Friday... Joe G has made an appearance at the PBS Forum.

This is gonna be great!

He has also announced his candidacy over at UD.

I think we need to resurrect the Joe G. Thread; this is definitely one to watch.

Let's hope Denyse O'Leary and Bornagain77 do his speech writing.

--------------
CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,09:57   

Quote (Mister DNA @ Nov. 16 2007,09:47)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 16 2007,08:37)
He has also announced his candidacy over at UD.

I think we need to resurrect the Joe G. Thread; this is definitely one to watch.

Let's hope Denyse O'Leary and Bornagain77 do his speech writing.

That would be funny. From BA77:

 
Quote
If we want this school district to be a mod{mumble, mumble}el district, we need to turn our back on the domi{mumble, mumble}nant Darwinist fallacies.  And don't worry about lawsuits.  I will testify and it will be the dea{mumble, mumble}th of the materialists!!

or maybe from Denyse:
 
Quote
I am running for the schoolboard because Joe G knows this is a great district, except for the science curriculum.  My only issue will be to change the biology to ID science because Joe knows you don't throw the baby out with the whole barrel of rotten apples.


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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,10:04   

Nothing would be more magnificent than to see some of the UDers get elected to local school boards.  If any of you are moles please encourage the tards to run for election.

I'd love to see some UD tards get elected and the riff-raff that would follow.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,10:49   

Quote
It must be Friday... [
I think we need to resurrect the Joe G. Thread; this is definitely one to watch.

Let's hope Denyse O'Leary and Bornagain77 do his speech writing.

Joe is engaging in his usual blustering and waffling on the NOVA/PBS blog, as expected. He resurrected an "argument" that he had used on one of the threads at Behe's Amazon blog, but since that was one of the threads that got closed when Behe figured out the problem, I couldn't link to my putdown of his stuff there. It would be interesting to read the previous stuff, if only to see how closely the discussion mirrors that previous one.

One of the nice things about that PBS site is that you can click on the name of a commenter and you get a screen that than allows you to click on a link that shows all the comments made by that individual. So if you click on JoeG you can follow him around and pester him. I'd highly recommend it.  But it would also be nice to be able to do that on this board? Steve, Wes, or anyone; is that possible?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,12:23   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 16 2007,07:37)
 
Quote (Mister DNA @ Nov. 16 2007,08:31)
It must be Friday... Joe G has made an appearance at the PBS Forum.

This is gonna be great!

He has also announced his candidacy over at UD.

Hum, "New England." Keep your eyes peeled for more school board election shenanigans.

If he's serious the public might be interested in all the stuff he's said at UD.

Quote (albatrossity2 @ Nov. 16 2007)
One of the nice things about that PBS site is that you can click on the name of a commenter and you get a screen that than allows you to click on a link that shows all the comments made by that individual. So if you click on JoeG you can follow him around and pester him. I'd highly recommend it.  But it would also be nice to be able to do that on this board? Steve, Wes, or anyone; is that possible?

That would be a nice compliment to the indexing idea I have.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Leftfield



Posts: 107
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,15:26   

From the PBS forum (emphasis added by me):


Also, if humans are simply genetic mutations of some simpler life form, then why are we the only species that wears clothes? why then the timidity? are you going to contend that evolution also created human emotions as well, and the ability for men to know that they are naked? why then no such timidity in other species?

Here


Argumentum ad figleafus?  

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm convinced! ;)

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Speaking for myself, I have long been confused . . .-Denyse O'Leary

  
Henry J



Posts: 4565
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,21:42   

Quote
Leftfield:

From the PBS forum (emphasis added by me):

Also, if humans are simply genetic mutations of some simpler life form, then why are we the only species that wears clothes? why then the timidity?


Was that a rhetorical question from whoever asked it? The obvious answer is that we don't have fur, or the layers of insulating material that some other mammals have. I suspect that the timidity is simply a side effect of having worn clothing most of our lives.

Henry

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,21:49   

Quote (Leftfield @ Nov. 16 2007,16:26)
From the PBS forum (emphasis added by me):


Also, if humans are simply genetic mutations of some simpler life form, then why are we the only species that wears clothes? why then the timidity? are you going to contend that evolution also created human emotions as well, and the ability for men to know that they are naked? why then no such timidity in other species?

Here


Argumentum ad figleafus?  

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm convinced! ;)

I was at the zoo in Asheboro about a year ago. One of the chimps lurked around the visitors, and let's just say he had a great time with himself in front of them. The kindergarten teachers and chaperones with the class who was there were aghast, but the kindergarteners themselves thought it was the funniest thing they'd ever seen.

Maybe they don't wear clothes because they're exhibitionists. ;-)

   
Annyday



Posts: 583
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,22:23   

Human clothing taboo is pretty nearly universal, even if only in a minimal fashion, like a string that pins the cock to the stomach by the foreskin.

My theory is that we have "clothing" that denotes whether we're supposed to be having sex right then or not. If not, we're damn well dressed in whatever social convention dictates.

Of course, the creationist side of this argument is that "god did it", so coming out with the semi-nuanced ev psych is probably a waste of time ...

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"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2132
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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 17 2007,04:27   

Quote
Also, if humans are simply genetic mutations of some simpler life form, then why are we the only species that wears clothes? why then the timidity?

I dunno.  Ask a caddis fly.  Or a hermit crab.

Bob

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 2132
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 17 2007,04:44   

Also from the PBS thread:
Quote
Gee I can't help but notice so few of the so-called 'scientists' in here responding to this thread.

Gee, you'd think they'd be stacked up like planes over O'Hara to get into this thread and say something, seeing how it's in the nice and tidy so-called 'scientific' language they claim they prefer.

They are.  I can hardly breathe thanks to the palaeontologists sat on my chest.

Could be worse, though.  Last week it was lung surgeons.  It was like Thoracic Park.

Bob

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Albatrossity2



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2007,12:13   

FtK has joined the fray at the PBS blog,, and Joe G has returned!

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2007,18:10   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Nov. 17 2007,05:27)
Quote
Also, if humans are simply genetic mutations of some simpler life form, then why are we the only species that wears clothes? why then the timidity?

That's your God of the argument.

   
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2007,11:33   

Quote
Also, if humans are simply genetic mutations of some simpler life form, then why are we the only species that wears clothes? why then the timidity?


Are there not some parts of the world were humans still don't wear clothes ? Certainly here in Norn Iron you'd soon die of hypothermia if you were naked for any length of time in the winter (and we rarely get snow these days).

Still, even in the civilized world we have nudist colonies, naked beaches in the South of France, and even strip/lap dancing clubs etc, so being naked seems to be the preferred option for many humans still.

However, looking at the general shape of most people (I was aghast at the sheer size of some of the Americans when I visited Florida a number of years ago) there seems to have been some good come out of the fall after all !

I watched the PBS docu yesterday afternoon and thought it was excellent. I can't see what the DI and AiG have to complain about.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article....ent-day

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2007,12:48   

Dear Peter

Please don't confuse Florida with America.  We don't like them anymore than you do.  We tried to cut it loose and attach the state to New Jersey but they didn't want the mosquitoes and felons.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2007,01:04   

Quote (stevestory @ Nov. 18 2007,18:10)
Quote (Bob O'H @ Nov. 17 2007,05:27)
Quote
Also, if humans are simply genetic mutations of some simpler life form, then why are we the only species that wears clothes? why then the timidity?

That's your God of the argument.

That was clever Steve. Not as clever as my "DI placing Hitler's brain in a great white shark" gag but still pretty good.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2007,01:20   

Thanks, Rob.

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2007,09:06   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Nov. 17 2007,10:44)
Also from the PBS thread:
Quote
Gee I can't help but notice so few of the so-called 'scientists' in here responding to this thread.

Gee, you'd think they'd be stacked up like planes over O'Hara to get into this thread and say something, seeing how it's in the nice and tidy so-called 'scientific' language they claim they prefer.

They are.  I can hardly breathe thanks to the palaeontologists sat on my chest.

Could be worse, though.  Last week it was lung surgeons.  It was like Thoracic Park.

Bob

Taxi for Bob!

Louis

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Bye.

  
Henry J



Posts: 4565
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 23 2007,18:27   

I liked this comment:

"I think of myself as being a sort of living disproof of evolution, because my great great grandfather was Charles Darwin. And I'm a screenwriter. This is not evolution in the right direction."

Henry

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2007,13:39   

The Discovery Institute launches a new website-across-the-bow of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy News Network.  Come one, come all to Judging PBS!!

Endless rehashes, most boring!

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10756
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2007,13:40   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Dec. 20 2007,13:39)
The Discovery Institute launches a new website-across-the-bow of the Evil Atheist Consipracy News Network.  Come one, come all to Judging PBS!!

Endless rehashes, most boring!

Wah wah wah!

To think they left their busy labs for that.

*bites lip*

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2007,13:44   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 20 2007,13:40)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Dec. 20 2007,13:39)
The Discovery Institute launches a new website-across-the-bow of the Evil Atheist Consipracy News Network.  Come one, come all to Judging PBS!!

Endless rehashes, most boring!

Wah wah wah!

To think they left their busy labs for that.

*bites lip*

You mean this lab?



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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2007,13:52   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Dec. 20 2007,13:39)
The Discovery Institute launches a new website-across-the-bow of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy News Network.  Come one, come all to Judging PBS!!

Endless rehashes, most boring!

Either the entire Interwebs are part of teh Darwinista Conspiracy, or they have a couple of design bugs to work out, cuz there was nowhere for me to comment at their brand-new all sciencey site.

I'm sure they are working on it in their labs as we speak.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
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