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hereoisreal



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Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,04:38   

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Email:   "Zero" <hereoisr...@msn.com>
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23. theSalamander


>I would be interested to see your reasons for accepting ID without any religious predisposition? What ID ideas / arguments do you feel have real scientific merit?<


My post:

>Sal, in reality, I find that chaos is natural.  Order is "mind made".


Every living thing is symmetrical.  That has to carry some weight.<

(end of discussion)
????????????????

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,04:56   

that formatting is kind of confusing.

   
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,05:25   

Quote
Every living thing is symmetrical.  That has to carry some weight.
About as much weight as saying "why dont we see fossils with just one eye, two eyes can't have evolved at the same time".

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,05:35   

Hey, my brain isnt symmetrical.  And I'm right handed!  
As for chaos, is the sun chaotic?  Are the orbits of the planets chaotic?

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,08:52   

Quote
As for chaos, is the sun chaotic?  Are the orbits of the planets chaotic?
Actually they are.  The orbits of the planets cannot be predicted analytically (by using a simple formula) but rather have to be calculated numerically.  Numerical solutions always have errors, whereas analytical solutions are exact.  Read more here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_body_problem

The sun's dynamics (sun spots, magnetic pole flips, etc.) are extremely chaotic.

The universe is a messy place.

-Dan

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,13:02   

And I have more freckles on my right arm than my left.

I said "living" things.  The sun, moon. and stars are not

living things.

Did you hear about the man who lost his left side?
He’s all right now.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Seven Popes



Posts: 190
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,13:35   

superficial bilateral symetry. Your hearts a bit to the left, your  intestines are swirled about, you ony have one appendix...  You look kinda symetrical untill we open you up.

--------------
Cave ab homine unius libri - Beware of anyone who has just one book.

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,15:00   

Popes, I have no appendix, but I do have 3 faces.
The middle one is zero.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,15:18   

It seems that you are making the argument that since living things are symmetrical this implies design.  That or you are mocking that argument.  Which is it?

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,15:55   

cogzoid, of corse I believe in ID.

Did you ever see a symmetrical grain of sand?
Or two grains alike be they symmetrical or not?

Life comes from (usually) the joining of two opposits.

By chance, the middle of heaven is symmetrical, but
that is another topic.
Good night.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
UnMark



Posts: 97
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,19:00   

Even thordaddy makes more sense than you, Zero.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,21:09   

Quote (cogzoid @ April 03 2006,13:52)
Quote
As for chaos, is the sun chaotic?  Are the orbits of the planets chaotic?
Actually they are.  The orbits of the planets cannot be predicted analytically (by using a simple formula) but rather have to be calculated numerically.  Numerical solutions always have errors, whereas analytical solutions are exact.  Read more here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_body_problem

The sun's dynamics (sun spots, magnetic pole flips, etc.) are extremely chaotic.

The universe is a messy place.

-Dan

Sure, messy, but yet sunspots and things like the Jupiter red spot are kind of like bits of order in chaos, arent they?  
(I'm obliquely referring to abiogenesis and the way that life seems to live on the edges of chaos, producing order out of disorder)

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,21:13   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 03 2006,20:55)
cogzoid, of corse I believe in ID.

Did you ever see a symmetrical grain of sand?
Or two grains alike be they symmetrical or not?

Life comes from (usually) the joining of two opposits.

By chance, the middle of heaven is symmetrical, but
that is another topic.
Good night.

Zero

And what is the sound of one hand clapping?

(Taoist quotes will have to wait until I get home and can check my library)

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,23:32   

The evolution of symmetry of organisms is well understood, I really hope this isn't your only reason for supporting ID.

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,03:11   

guthrie wrote:

"And what is the sound of one hand clapping?"
.......................................................

And what part of my post were you addressing?

One hand waving is not a clap.

Also there is no sound if there is no ear with all
it's complex linkages to the mind.  One of your
six contacts with reality.
....................................................
Chris posted:

"The evolution of symmetry of organisms is well understood, I really hope this isn't your only reason for supporting ID."

It's not, but we haven't covered much ground
on symmety, have we?

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,03:21   

Well we understand the developmental mechanisms, the genes that active the simeltaneous expression of other genes on the different sides of the body, producing symmetry. We see how these developmental networks are conserved across phyla, and so have some understanding of how these mechanisms evolved. We also understand how random forces affect ontogoney causing differences between the different sides such as position of hairs, fingerprints etc (and maybe freckles Im not sure). Obviously when I say understand I don't mean fully understand, but its far from a problem for evolution.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,03:25   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 04 2006,08:11)
It's not, but we haven't covered much ground
on symmety, have we?

Feel free to flounder around on this topic to your heart's content.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,03:28   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 03 2006,09:38)
Every living thing is symmetrical.  That has to carry some weight

I think that I shall never see
A naturally-growing symmetrical tree.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,03:43   

Chris, there a lot of "things" I don't understand too.

The easiest thing to do, when we can't find an
answer, is to throw up our hands in despair.

Science, i'm sure, deals a lot with the microscope
and telescope, as well as a lot of numbers. (to
see if they add up)
Many answers can be found with the naked eye.

Some of the words you use, I don't understand.
It could be because I am just a retired carpenter
or it could be because I'm not the sharpest knife
in the drawer.  But I do know how to measure.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,03:55   

improvius:

"I think that I shall never see
A naturally-growing symmetrical tree."

Check out the leaves.  They are for healing.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,03:56   

Quote
The easiest thing to do, when we can't find an
answer, is to throw up our hands in despair.
This is exactly what science does not do, it continues to look for an answer. Knowing that there are so may things that we do not know is what makes science so exciting. To science, creationsim is exactly what you said, it is saying 'we haven't found an answer, so the question is unanswerable'. I would hate to see what would happen to science if this became commonplace.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:06   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 04 2006,08:55)
Check out the leaves.  They are for healing.

A nightmare on elm leaf.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:12   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 04 2006,08:11)
guthrie wrote:

"And what is the sound of one hand clapping?"
.......................................................

And what part of my post were you addressing?

One hand waving is not a clap.

Also there is no sound if there is no ear with all
it's complex linkages to the mind.  One of your
six contacts with reality.

Correct.  Now that you have shown the ability to write comprehensible sentences in English, would you like to try and make a point related to the evidence that Evolutionary biology has piled up over the past 150 years?

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:26   

Quote (guthrie @ April 04 2006,09:12)
Correct.  Now that you have shown the ability to write comprehensible sentences in English, would you like to try and make a point related to the evidence that Evolutionary biology has piled up over the past 150 years?

I think this crab is just going to fiddle around with symmetry for a while.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:33   

Thanks guthrie, but I do mispell sometimes and I
normally don't use spell check.

I really haven't spent much time involved in science.
I have spent almost 72 years on this earth.

The measure of a man's life is what you put on
a tombstone, the years between birth and death.

It's #### to get old but that's the price you pay
for living.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Seven Popes



Posts: 190
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:38   

Your point?
Quote
Popes, I have no appendix, but I do have 3 faces.
The middle one is zero.

Quote
I have more freckles on my right arm than my left.

Sad

--------------
Cave ab homine unius libri - Beware of anyone who has just one book.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:40   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 04 2006,09:33)
I really haven't spent much time involved in science.

It's never too late to start.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Seven Popes



Posts: 190
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:42   

Time cube quality crankdom. Mixed with Seuss.
As Guthrie pointed out, if you have a reason for posting on this evolution debating forum, then lets see it.  Or piss off.

--------------
Cave ab homine unius libri - Beware of anyone who has just one book.

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:44   

improvius:

"I think this crab is just going to fiddle around with symmetry for a while."

improvius, I can discuss something else.  Try me.
However, this thread, right now is about symmetrical
fiddler crabs.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:50   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 04 2006,09:33)
I really haven't spent much time involved in science.
I have spent almost 72 years on this earth.

I think I understand now.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Seven Popes



Posts: 190
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:57   

Arden:High V.O.C. glue.  Stored in unsealed containers.  In a poorly ventilated shop.  It was inevitable.

--------------
Cave ab homine unius libri - Beware of anyone who has just one book.

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,05:04   

[quote=Seven Popes,April 04 2006,09:38][/quote]
Your point?
Quote
Popes, I have no appendix, but I do have 3 faces.
The middle one is zero.

Quote
I have more freckles on my right arm than my left.

Sad

My "point":

My faces (personalities) are symmetrical, just like
yours:

minus, zero, and plus (hate, indifference, and love) (101)

It all balances out.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Seven Popes



Posts: 190
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,05:29   

So your faces are blanced, but your arm freckles are not?  What does this have to do with debating the theory of evolution? Got a point about evolution?

--------------
Cave ab homine unius libri - Beware of anyone who has just one book.

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,06:06   

Popes, this thread is not about evolution.  It is about
ID.
I believe in an IDOL. (Intelligent designer of life)

If you have two ears, which came first?  The right
or left?

What is your 6th sense?  Surely science should know.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,06:11   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 04 2006,11:06)
Popes, this thread is not about evolution.  It is about
ID.
I believe in an IDOL. (Intelligent designer of life)

If you have two ears, which came first?  The right
or left?

What is your 6th sense?  Surely science should know.

Zero

I knew people in college who talked like this. Granted, it was usually after they'd taken a lot of LSD, but still...

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,06:14   

Clearly, zero's posts have as much point as a sponge.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,06:30   

LOL!

I can't believe people are trying to argue with this loon.

But to get into the spirit of things.

Silver sheep go drifting past
Who knows if, loves dreams will last
And just to contribule the fact
I hear the sound, of a small big splat!  

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,06:42   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ April 04 2006,11:30)
LOL!

I can't believe people are trying to argue with this loon.

I'm just doing it for the halibut.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Seven Popes



Posts: 190
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,06:45   

Thank god I was able to disable the "Auto-Mock" feature of my browser before my laptop burst into flames.

--------------
Cave ab homine unius libri - Beware of anyone who has just one book.

  
W. Kevin Vicklund



Posts: 68
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,06:48   

thorluther is lucid compared to zero.  That's pretty scary.

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,08:34   

Seven Popes:

"Thank god I was able to disable the "Auto-Mock" feature of my browser before my laptop burst into flames"

................................................................................


The following is one of 342 stories about "chance" events in my life on my
web site:

         I went to work one morning and turned to the mechanic next to me and said, "If God wanted to, he could turn the oceans into gas and look for someone with a match."  A couple of hours later I was listening to the radio when the news came on.  The announcer said that a Cuban refugee had boarded an airliner, thrown gasoline on a stewardess and threatened to strike a match.


Speaking of ears:

After Peter had cut off Malchus' ear, everyone
looked on the ground for it, knowing Jesus
could replace it. When an ear was found, they
showed it to Malchus who then said, "Keep looking,
mine had a pencil behind it."

Did you see where Mike Tyson died?
He ran into Vincent van Gogh up in heaven and said,
" You look like a prize fighter. You sure we didn't fight?"

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,08:39   

Quote
Sure, messy, but yet sunspots and things like the Jupiter red spot are kind of like bits of order in chaos, arent they?

Chaos doesn't mean disorder.  It basically implies unpredictability in it's dynamics.  There are dynamical systems that are well understood (a single planet orbiting a star) but most things out there are quite complex.  Chaos is not a well defined idea, but from what I know chaotic systems are heavily dependant on initial conditions.  For example, if you put a drop of water on the back of your hand it will roll off.  But, at some angle of your hand the drop will have a tough time "deciding" which way to fall.  At this point tiny imperfections (the shaking of your hand from blood flow) may have a large impact on the outcome.  This is considered chaotic.  It really has nothing to do with disorder or information.  Just unpredictability.  Gleick's Chaos is a fabulous read for the inclined.  Lots of pretty fractal pictures and interesting topics.  It's aimed at the learned layman.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,09:08   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 04 2006,13:34)
The following is one of 342 stories about "chance" events in my life on my
web site:

         I went to work one morning and turned to the mechanic next to me and said, "If God wanted to, he could turn the oceans into gas and look for someone with a match."  A couple of hours later I was listening to the radio when the news came on.  The announcer said that a Cuban refugee had boarded an airliner, thrown gasoline on a stewardess and threatened to strike a match.

Holy crap!  It's Nostradamus reincarnated.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,09:16   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 04 2006,13:34)
The following is one of 342 stories about "chance" events in my life on my
web site:

Please, please PLEASE post a link to that site.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it.  Here 0 Is Real

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,09:39   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 04 2006,13:34)
Seven Popes:

"Thank god I was able to disable the "Auto-Mock" feature of my browser before my laptop burst into flames"

................................................................................


The following is one of 342 stories about "chance" events in my life on my
web site:

         I went to work one morning and turned to the mechanic next to me and said, "If God wanted to, he could turn the oceans into gas and look for someone with a match."  A couple of hours later I was listening to the radio when the news came on.  The announcer said that a Cuban refugee had boarded an airliner, thrown gasoline on a stewardess and threatened to strike a match.


Speaking of ears:

After Peter had cut off Malchus' ear, everyone
looked on the ground for it, knowing Jesus
could replace it. When an ear was found, they
showed it to Malchus who then said, "Keep looking,
mine had a pencil behind it."

Did you see where Mike Tyson died?
He ran into Vincent van Gogh up in heaven and said,
" You look like a prize fighter. You sure we didn't fight?"

Zero

Well you know just mocking is ok
But bt jaysus look the DJ

However refute
The damned to ickay

The leprous perform
Therefore umnikay

  
qetzal



Posts: 311
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,13:51   

Quote (hereoisreal @ April 04 2006,13:34)
I went to work one morning and turned to the mechanic next to me and said, "If God wanted to, he could turn the oceans into gas and look for someone with a match."  A couple of hours later I was listening to the radio when the news came on.  The announcer said that a Cuban refugee had boarded an airliner, thrown gasoline on a stewardess and threatened to strike a match.

Wow, man, that's deep!

Hey, have you ever really looked at your hand? I mean, really looked at your hand?

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,15:58   

Yeah qetzal,

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,01:57   

Dude,
If, like, you could have lunch with any three people, alive or dead, who would you have lunch with?

If, like, you were stranded on a desert island with only, like, three objects, what would you want those objects to be?

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,16:02   

Hey Dude, that's sort of a silly topic for this thread.
However, since you brought it up, why don't you
give me your preference first.

It's like the guy who wished he had one that hung
all the way to the ground.....he woke up the next
morning with 4 inch legs.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
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