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Fross



Posts: 71
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2007,12:23   

So I was thinking about the political movement called ID/creationism.  

If the over-use of anti-biotics can lead to super-germs, can we eventually breed the ultimate creationist political machine?  

So far the fossil evidence suggest this is the trend (adapting by increased mimicry):

Creationism  
Creation Science
Intelligent Design
Teach the Controversy

The largest environmental pressures seem to be the court rulings, and while the courts are never fooled by these new incarnations of creationism, they grow increasingly more palpable to the public.  The courts may not be the only selective pressure either.  Perhaps our daily monitoring and commentary on the ID movement is allowing them to test new strategies and weed out the weakest ones before they even get to the next court case. (they really do produce their own rope if you leave them alone)

Maybe it's my lack of imagination but I can't possibly imagine what could come after "teach the controversy", maybe it's an evolutionary dead-end.  

whadda ya think?

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"For everything else, there's Mastertard"

   
Ichthyic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2007,14:01   

hard to predict, but if hope grants wishes, I'm going for "Dead End".

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

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J-Dog



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Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2007,14:03   

If I could just channel Flint for a minute...

ID is dead.  It died in Dover.

And there ain't nothing they can do about it.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 555
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2007,14:37   

As we all know, RM+NS cannot possibly add new information to the genome.  What you atheist fundamentalists call "evolution" in this case is clearly just a loss of function: the creationist meme's gene for telling the truth about itself has deleteriously mutated such that the resulting meme, ID, is incapable of admitting it is creationism.  No information was added and no new species has formed; this is clearly mere variation within a created kind.  I believe it shows the inevitable degradation of genetic information since the ark, which doesn't matter anyway because Jeebus will be calling me (not you) home any day now.

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"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
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"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2007,15:52   

Can I have your car?

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

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GCT



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2007,16:07   

Didn't Dembski already tell us the newest incarnation would be Intelligent Evolution (IE)?

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2007,17:31   

I thought we were on "Criticisms of Evolution" now.

WHO THE #### IS IN CHARGE OF THE MEMOS?????

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2007,16:11   

What about "sudden appearance theory"? I think that's going to be the new crap phrase in the new crap edition of Of Panda Crap and People Poo.

I actually like "sudden appearance theory" because Behe backed off of that idea in his Dover testimony (he backed off of everything so much that soon I thought he was going to define intelligent design as random mutation + natural selection). That'll get him in trouble with himself (kind of like how Denyse O'Leary occasionally gets control of the body from Denyse O'Leary). Remember, he reviewed the Panda Crap book--but only the part that he himself wrote. Bwahahahaha! :D

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Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2007,16:42   

Quote
That'll get him in trouble with himself (kind of like how Denyse O'Leary occasionally gets control of the body from Denyse O'Leary).


my god, that's it!

this whole ID thing is merely the attempt of humans possesed by aliens to slowly but surely manipulate the thinking of others into believing that the aliens are their natural masters.

I just saw that plot on Stargate, SG1 last night!

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
carlsonjok



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2007,16:51   

Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 03 2007,16:11)
What about "sudden appearance theory"? I think that's going to be the new crap phrase in the new crap edition of Of Panda Crap and People Poo.

Well, as it stands now, Panda Redux is a floater.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2007,17:20   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 02 2007,14:03)
ID is dead.  It died in Dover.

No, ID died in Kansas, during the Kangaroo Kourt.

Dover just nailed the lid on the coffin.

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"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2007,17:23   

Quote (Fross @ Mar. 02 2007,12:23)
Maybe it's my lack of imagination but I can't possibly imagine what could come after "teach the controversy", maybe it's an evolutionary dead-end.  

whadda ya think?

Reposting from the last time this question came up:

I'm sticking to my prediction that the fundies will now drop anti-evolutionism altogether -- they've lost that fight so many times that it would be simple-minded masochism to keep fighting it.  Instead, they will turn to anti-cosmology-ism, by giving us some privately-defined version of "The Anthropic Principle" which, they will say, proves that the universe was specially created . . . uh . . .  I mean designed . . . er . . .  I mean . .  um . . .  "adjusted", yeah, *that's* the word, "specially adjusted" . . . just to produce us.

There are several advantages to the fundies for that strategy.  First, it completely sidesteps all of their crushingly long list of anti-evolution defeats.  Just because anti-evolutionism has already been repeatedly ruled to be non-science religious dogma doesn't mean that anti-cosmology-ism is, right, Your Honor?  

Second, if you think people misunderstand evolution, just WAIT till the fundies start spouting out all sorts of sciencey-sounding bullshit about cosmology and quantum physics.  

Third, the very name "The Anthropic Principle" sounds vaguely sorta kinda like "Created For Man", so all the members of the Big Tent (remember, The Anthropic Principle says nothing at all about . . . oh . . .  how old the earth is, whether or not life evolves, or even whether or not the Big Bang happened) can read into it whatever they like, in whatever form they like it.  

And fourth  -- and most beautiful of all -- the term "The Anthropic Principle" was itself produced by real live cosmologists, not by foaming fundie nutters, and has actually been used in real science publications.  That'll keep the fundie quote-miners employed for years.  It'll also allow them to argue in court, "But Your Honor, this is just THEIR OWN SCIENCE that we want to have taught !!!!"

Gee, if I were a dishonest person, I'd write the book myself laying out all those arguments, and thus take credit (all the way to the bank) for starting ID's successor.  ;)

Alas, though, the anti-cosmology-ist strategy will ultimately fail too, just like the anti-evolutionist campaign did, and for much the same reasons. There will, for instance, be a documented history tying anti-cosmology directly to fundie anti-evolutionists, going back several decades (there were a couple ICR nutters who wrote articles declaring that Einstein's relativity is wrong and therefore the Big Bang is wrong, and then there's Gonzalez's "universe-was-designed" tome and Heddle's blitherings about "cosmological ID").  

And any version of The Anthropic Principle put out by fundies will, of course, be inherently religious, since none but a deity is capable of producing or adjusting a universe  (no "maybe the space aliens diddit" this time).  And you can be sure that in every "scientific" discussion where the fundie version of "The Anthropic Principle" appears,  *some* fundie nutter will stand up in the middle of it and shout "JESUS SAVES !!!!!!" at the top of his lungs, and thus give the whole game away.  Just like Intelligent Design, The Anthropic Principle gambit depends for its success completely and totally on the ability of its supporters to shut up about their religious motives.  Alas, they simply can't do it.  They don't WANT to do it.  Their incessant compulsion to preach, will kill them every time.  Just like it killed ID.

Of course, without the political support of the Republicrat Party, the fundies are nothing but a sewing circle anyway, and it appears as though the Republicrats will not have real political power again for a long long long time . . .

Indeed, the Republicrat Party itself will likely be in for some awfully rough times ahead.  Basically, the Repugs are the "Party of the Angry White Man".  Unfortunately for them, by the middle of this century if not sooner, white people will themselves be firmly a minority in the US -- and then the angry white men can stamp their feet all they want, they simply won't have the numbers at the ballot box to win.  Women and ethnics will then decide elections, and they're, uh, not very friendly to the Republicrats (and vice versa).  

I look for the Republicrats to decline drastically over the next few decades, and either remake themselves completely, or be replaced by an actual conservative political party ("conservative" in the Eisenhower sense, not in the radical Dubya/fundie sense).  The alternative would be for the angry white fundie nutters to seize power undemocratically, without elections.  I do not dismiss that possibility.  Indeed, I think open fascism in the US (as compared to the fig-leaf fascism that we've recently had under Republicrat single-party rule) is a very real option.

Which is why I keep my hunting rifle well-oiled.

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www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2007,18:27   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Mar. 03 2007,17:23)
The alternative would be for the angry white fundie nutters to seize power undemocratically, without elections.  I do not dismiss that possibility.  Indeed, I think open fascism in the US (as compared to the fig-leaf fascism that we've recently had under Republicrat single-party rule) is a very real option.

And that sir, scares the shit out of me.

It is a very real option for them.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2007,18:55   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Mar. 03 2007,18:27)
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Mar. 03 2007,17:23)
The alternative would be for the angry white fundie nutters to seize power undemocratically, without elections.  I do not dismiss that possibility.  Indeed, I think open fascism in the US (as compared to the fig-leaf fascism that we've recently had under Republicrat single-party rule) is a very real option.

And that sir, scares the shit out of me.

It is a very real option for them.

Well, I take hope in the fact that now matter HOW holy they think they are, they're not bullet-proof.  If you shoot them, they die just like everyone else.

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k.e



Posts: 1948
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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2007,22:57   

Fross asks:
Quote
Are we breeding the ultimate creationist meme?


Have you seen how ALL those guys think?

They can't agree now what ID IS except that it aint the ToE.

Not one of them can get their head out of their ass long enough to take a breath.

Nup, all they are ever destined to do is create endless mirth for real people.




Quote

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posted on Mar. 04 2007,01:23
I'm sticking to my prediction that the fundies will now drop anti-evolutionism altogether -- they've lost that fight so many times that it would be simple-minded masochism to keep fighting it.  Instead, they will turn to anti-cosmology-ism, by giving us some privately-defined version of "The Anthropic Principle" which, they will say, proves that the universe was specially created . . . uh . . .  I mean designed . . . er . . .  I mean . .  um . . .  "adjusted", yeah, *that's* the word, "specially adjusted" . . . just to produce us.


Oh ......so they become Catholics?  <snicker>




Quote
Second, if you think people misunderstand evolution, just WAIT till the fundies start spouting out all sorts of sciencey-sounding bullshit about cosmology and quantum physics.  


Yup they can line up with all the other crazies and wingnuts and fight for spare brain time....(**I think I'm sleepy....Yawn)


Quote
Of course, without the political support of the Republicrat Party, the fundies are nothing but a sewing circle anyway, and it appears as though the Republicrats will not have real political power again for a long long long time . . .


It does appear as though the tide has turned for a brief moment in politics..time will tell.


Quote
......The alternative would be for the angry white fundie nutters to seize power undemocratically, without elections.  I do not dismiss that possibility.  Indeed, I think open fascism in the US (as compared to the fig-leaf fascism that we've recently had under Republicrat single-party rule) is a very real option.


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that exactly what they did with the Bush Family Putsch in 2000?

Quote


Which is why I keep my hunting rifle well-oiled


And moving to Montana?  :)

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
stevestory



Posts: 10127
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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2007,23:51   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Mar. 03 2007,18:23)
I'm sticking to my prediction that the fundies will now drop anti-evolutionism altogether -- they've lost that fight so many times that it would be simple-minded masochism to keep fighting it.  Instead, they will turn to anti-cosmology-ism, by giving us some privately-defined version of "The Anthropic Principle" which, they will say, proves that the universe was specially created . . . uh . . .  I mean designed . . . er . . .  I mean . .  um . . .  "adjusted", yeah, *that's* the word, "specially adjusted" . . . just to produce us.

David Heddle, please pick up the white courtesy phone...

Of course, switching to the cosmological argument would be the smart thing for them to do. Whole new field of bad statistics to exploit. But they won't, or at least, the won't become primarily about the cosmological argument, because they hate, hate hate hate evolution. Most of them aren't sophisticated folk who'll be happy to have a distant cosmological gap to stuff their christian god into. They got their KJV, they read it like it was wrote, in plain English, and they ain't come from no monkey, dammit.

   
Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2007,00:31   

Quote
They got their KJV, they read it like it was wrote, in plain English, and they ain't come from no monkey, dammit.

Oh, yeah?

"In case you haven't noticed, Christians are a monkey wrench for the New World Order." (Toward bottom) :D

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2007,01:33   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Mar. 03 2007,17:23)
 
Quote (Fross @ Mar. 02 2007,12:23)
Maybe it's my lack of imagination but I can't possibly imagine what could come after "teach the controversy", maybe it's an evolutionary dead-end.  

whadda ya think?

Reposting from the last time this question came up:

I'm sticking to my prediction that the fundies will now drop anti-evolutionism altogether -- they've lost that fight so many times that it would be simple-minded masochism to keep fighting it.  Instead, they will turn to anti-cosmology-ism, by giving us some privately-defined version of "The Anthropic Principle" which, they will say, proves that the universe was specially created . . . uh . . .  I mean designed...

They may do that and will look even sillier. Dodging "age-of-the-Earth" questions while trying to dispute evolution apears daft. Wait till they atempt to dodge "age" questions when discussing/critiquing the Universe.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2007,07:02   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 03 2007,23:51)
Of course, switching to the cosmological argument would be the smart thing for them to do. Whole new field of bad statistics to exploit. But they won't, or at least, the won't become primarily about the cosmological argument, because they hate, hate hate hate evolution. Most of them aren't sophisticated folk who'll be happy to have a distant cosmological gap to stuff their christian god into. They got their KJV, they read it like it was wrote, in plain English, and they ain't come from no monkey, dammit.

Certainly that is true.  But I am referring strictly to their legal/political strategy, which is of course the only one they have.  Anti-evolutionism has run its legal course -- they have tried to argue that creationism is science, and lost; they have tried to argue that ID is science and is not creationism, and lost; they have tried to argue that evolution is religion, and lost; they have tried to argue that "teach the controvesy" isn't creationism and isn't ID, and lost.  They have nothing left to argue. Any further anti-evolution arguments they can make are simply reworded versions of the same old shit that has already failed, repeatedly, in court.

Arguing anti-COSMOLOGY in court allows them to sidestep all of those lost arguments, and start all over again.

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"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2007,07:06   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 04 2007,01:33)
They may do that and will look even sillier.

Well heck, that's never stopped them before.   ;)

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Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2007,16:46   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Mar. 04 2007,07:06)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 04 2007,01:33)
They may do that and will look even sillier.

Well heck, that's never stopped them before.   ;)

I really do hope that you are correct here. The comedy would be priceless.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2007,00:23   

Heyo! I told you I was on to something with my theory that IDers are really humans possesed by aliens, just like on stargate.

seeeeeeee:

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=4179d9b7b458a6ebdeb9



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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

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The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,10:08   

While I agree that fundamentalist efforts to ban/corrupt the teaching of evolution should be contested as furiously as possible, I really don't understand the paranoia here. Many secularists are just as eager to impose their dogma in the curriculum, and unlike fundies some powerful ones are trying to restrict alternatives to their taxpayer-funded indoctrination. See here for one example:

   
Quote
It was too good to be true. For less than two weeks ago the French legislature banned home-schooling except within one and only one family. There can no longer be small groups of youngsters who gather in a family home for instruction. The explanation given is "protection of the child". Here is a summary of an article by Catholic writer Jeanne Smits. It was written a few days before the law was passed, when there was still a glimmer of hope:

Quietly, in the noiseless discretion of an Assembly of wise men, the Senate has just put an end to one of the last concrete freedoms in the domain of education that remained for families trying to spare their children the brain-washing and the rot organized for them by our National Education. By adopting, on the second round of voting, the bill aimed at "protection of children", the Senate ended the possibility of home-schooling children of more than one family...The bill will now go to the National Assembly. (...)

There are only two ways to escape both public and private schools: to join or to found a non-governmental school (hors contrat), a restrictive procedure requiring at the very least an absence of ill-will on the part of school inspectors and local residents; or home-schooling, where up to 19 children are permitted to be taught by one or several teachers.

This make-shift solution has allowed numerous small groups to form and even to evolve into the establishment of a non-governmental school. It is often the only materially feasible solution. It is absolutely justified by the fundamental, unalienable right (droit opposable) of parents to educate their children as they see fit and in accordance with their faith. (...)

During the first vote, the National Assembly had arbitrarily reduced the number of families permitted to gather to two. The Senate adopted André Lardeux's amendment reducing this number to one. The amendment will be examined, along with eleven other modifications, by the National Assembly, which will be urged, by government decree, to act quickly.

Will one deputy, just one, have the guts to make them vote down this intolerable bill. As I sit at my keyboard I'm furious because I know that will not happen. (...)



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The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,10:33   

Quote
Indeed, the Republicrat Party itself will likely be in for some awfully rough times ahead.  Basically, the Repugs are the "Party of the Angry White Man".  Unfortunately for them, by the middle of this century if not sooner, white people will themselves be firmly a minority in the US -- and then the angry white men can stamp their feet all they want, they simply won't have the numbers at the ballot box to win.  Women and ethnics will then decide elections, and they're, uh, not very friendly to the Republicrats (and vice versa).  


And then the angry white men leave for countries where they're not second-class citizens, leaving Lenny to stew in his hatred for the successful (and to enjoy being a target for minority racists). Have fun, Lenny.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Faid



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,12:34   

And when the angry white men get there, they find out to their dismay that they are still "second-class citizens", because it does not matter to the people there that they are their supposed "racial brothers": All that matters is that they are immigrants.


Hi Ghost! Long time no see. :)

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,14:00   

Faid:

 
Quote
And when the angry white men get there, they find out to their dismay that they are still "second-class citizens", because it does not matter to the people there that they are their supposed "racial brothers": All that matters is that they are immigrants.


I have to disagree with this. I don't see highly-skilled immigrants of any race being treated like second-class citizens in America. Or even not-so-skilled immigrants if they work hard. Most Americans just want some control over the borders. Anyhoo, I better get back on the wagon.


And why are you so coy about answering emails? Ladies, don't trust Greek men ...they'll break your heart every time.  :(

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,15:26   

Quote
and unlike fundies some powerful ones are trying to restrict alternatives to their taxpayer-funded indoctrination. See here for one example:



unlike fundies????

are you back into your loki-troll mode?

did you even consider that there might be an alternative explanation than the one you immediately leaped to, like oh, i dunno, maybe the majority of extant homeschooling programs were being shown to be entirely deficient, maybe?

Quote
I don't see highly-skilled immigrants of any race being treated like second-class citizens in America.


there's that closet racist in ya rearing it's ugly head again.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,18:09   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Mar. 06 2007,10:33)
Quote
Indeed, the Republicrat Party itself will likely be in for some awfully rough times ahead.  Basically, the Repugs are the "Party of the Angry White Man".  Unfortunately for them, by the middle of this century if not sooner, white people will themselves be firmly a minority in the US -- and then the angry white men can stamp their feet all they want, they simply won't have the numbers at the ballot box to win.  Women and ethnics will then decide elections, and they're, uh, not very friendly to the Republicrats (and vice versa).  


And then the angry white men leave for countries where they're not second-class citizens, leaving Lenny to stew in his hatred for the successful (and to enjoy being a target for minority racists). Have fun, Lenny.

Change your .sig back to what it was before, Troll.

I liked it.  And here you show WHY.

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Chris Hyland



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,18:41   

The next tactic for the creationists? Pretty obvious:

  
Faid



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,21:45   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Mar. 06 2007,14:00)
Faid:

   
Quote
And when the angry white men get there, they find out to their dismay that they are still "second-class citizens", because it does not matter to the people there that they are their supposed "racial brothers": All that matters is that they are immigrants.


I have to disagree with this. I don't see highly-skilled immigrants of any race being treated like second-class citizens in America. Or even not-so-skilled immigrants if they work hard.

Well, that's because you live in 21st-century America... And hopefully it will be the same for other countries too, someday. hopefully

Also I don't answer emails what?

(true about the ladies though)

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,15:31   

Faid:

 
Quote
Also I don't answer emails what?


You answered the first one, but did you get the second?

[Note: I don't expect you to reply to my emails if you don't want.... I was just clarifying which email I meant. Carry on with the thread.]

Ichthyic:

Don't have time for a detailed discussion, but here's a few links that might explain some of my suspicions about the French government's motives.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,18:18   

Paley, you once again seem to be laboring under the delusion that people here . . . well . . . give a flying #### what you think.

Um, no one does.

(shrug)

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The Last Conformist



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(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2007,11:17   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Mar. 06 2007,14:00)
Faid:
I have to disagree with this. I don't see highly-skilled immigrants of any race being treated like second-class citizens in America.

You may want to consider the fact that the "angry white men" wouldn't be immigrating to America.

  
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