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  Topic: Are scientists fighting a losing battle ?, anti-evolution< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,12:38   

I usually read Ken Ham's blog every day, not because I'm a creationist you understand (even though I am a Christian) but rather, to get an idea of what's going on behind the scences at these events.

I found today's entry somewhat alarming. 10,000 turn up for a creation weekend at Arkansas:

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/aroundt....rkansas

Quote
Around 10,000 people (including 2,500 children and young people) were reached directly with the creation/gospel message during our weekend in northwestern Arkansas. Last night, Dr. Terry Mortenson and I gave messages at the final evening of the AiG conference conducted at The Church of Pinnacle Hills.

We praise the Lord for the extremely dedicated local committee headed up by Dr. Don Eckerd. When I was speaking in nearby Branson, Missouri, about a year ago, Don asked me if I would speak at an informal lunch at a restaurant to a small group of local pastors and others with a view to bringing a major AiG conference to the area. Because of the vision and dedication of Don and the group he was able to gather around him, the Lord mightily blessed.

As a result, around 10,000 people were reached directly with the AiG messages—thousands of resources (books, DVDs, etc) have gone out into the community (we shipped 12 pallets of resources down for this event)—and now these people with these resources will reach potentially thousands and thousands more.

I thought it would be good to include a photographic overview of the weekend (including a couple of the photos I’ve used in a previous blog). I must admit I get so excited to see the photographs of the kids as they get off their buses and then see their responses in the auditorium. Priase the Lord with us as you view these photographs and pray that the Lord will use what has been said, and the resources obtained, to equip God’s people and reach non-Christians with the gospel.


Every time I read about Ham bragging about this or that event and the thousands that turn up at these (I will expect several thousand in Belfast's Waterfront Hall in a few weeks time) I get depressed.

Ham really does seem to have convinced a lot of people very easily that science education is not only anti-Christian but that it has some very serious flaws.

I'm still at a loss as to what scientists can do about the current situation. Richard Dawkins can call it child abuse if he likes (i.e. telling children about creation) but he's fighting a losing battle, certainly within church circles at least.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,13:01   

Any independent confirmation of those numbers?

Don't just take Hammie's word for it. His ego's inflated - who knows what else is (and I just lost my appetite). ;)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
midwifetoad



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,13:03   

An overwhelming percentage of fundie children drop church affiliation when they leave home. That's why they have to have nine children to replace themselves.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
factician



Posts: 77
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,13:21   

And to put this in perspective, the American Society for Microbiology General Meeting has an attendance rate of around 13,000.  That's mostly folks with Ph.D.s in microbiology milling around for a few days.  I imagine other disciplines have similar sized general meetings.

Yep, there's a lot of ignorant fundies out there, but there's a lot of us, too.

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conspiracyfactory.blogspot.com

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10756
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,13:23   

Quote (midwifetoad @ April 15 2008,13:03)
An overwhelming percentage of fundie children drop church affiliation when they leave home. That's why they have to have nine children to replace themselves.

Please, lord, give us an ignorant child this time!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
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"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JohnW



Posts: 2767
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(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,14:04   

Some perspective.  A history of creationism in schools:
1.  Teach biblical literalism only, not science.
2.  Science and biblical literalism get equal time.
3.  Repackage biblical literalism as "creation science." Try to get equal time for creation science and real science.
4.  Repackage creation science (aka repackaged biblical literalism) as intelligent design.  Try to get a brief mention alongside real science.

We mustn't be complacent, and we need to be ready for the inevitable setbacks and outbreaks of tard along the way.  But there's a long-term trend here.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
olegt



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(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,14:05   

What battle?

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BopDiddy



Posts: 71
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,15:07   

I had a very opposite experience (one of hope) this morning while volunteering for the elementary school attended by our eldest child.

We had a class trip to the local natural history museum, with specific content around dinosaurs (hey, they're in senior kindergarten, it's all about the dinosaurs).

There were two separate components to the content: one was a tour through the exhibits, the second was activities.  In each case, the guides were very clear on timelines with the kids: "over 65 million years ago", "humans and dinosaurs never lived together", "dinosaurs evolved these features over time", "certain dinosaurs were the ancestors of birds", etc., etc.

The "humans and dinosaurs never lived together" comment must have come up at least four or five times.  References to evolution were all over the place.  Even questions like "how do we know dinosaurs even existed if we've never seen one?" came up for the kids to answer, with answers that went into more than just "fossils!" but with a bit of detail on how paleontologists try to piece together an accurate picture of the creature, it's environment, the timeline, etc.

They even touched on stuff that I had only heard about in passing (I'm no paleontologist) such as the clear terminology distinction between prehistoric marine reptiles and dinosaurs, gastroliths, coprolites, legs-under-the-body vs legs-at-the-side of thecodonts (sp?) etc.  The kids just ate it up.

On top of that, I actually know one of the guides from adjacent social circles and know that she's a fairly devout Christian, however she had no problem with the content.

After seeing and hearing some of the chicanery of the ID and YEC crowd through the eyes of this forum it was nice for a small dose of hope.  It doesn't lull me into any sense of complacency, though.

  
Reginald Beasley



Posts: 31
Joined: April 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,15:13   

Quote (olegt @ April 15 2008,14:05)
What battle?

The cultural battle.  

Science will never be defeated by ID, it's impossible because ID isn't even in the same boxing ring.

But the religious right want to sow seeds of disbelief in science.   If we did things right in America and public education standards were decided only by those who are well-suited to decide them, there'd be nothing to worry about.

Unfortunately, what is taught in public schools is largely a matter of opinions and biblical literalists will keep changing tactics until one day a judge can't rule that 'academic freedom' or 'ID' or 'constant non-stop whining and bitching' is religously motivated.

But don't think that it's all for religion's sake either, the biblits that are arguing for all this are not religiously motivated - they write books that cost money, they give lectures that cost money, and they make movies that cost millions of dollars.

Biblical Literalism is bad theology and has been for about 1700 years.  To win the war, we need to get the truly religious people and not these false prophets/money changers to step up and say, "Hey, this is bullshit."  I don't think it's very Christian to look at Jesus bleeding on the cross and say 'cha-ching!'

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,16:34   

Quote (Reginald Beasley @ April 15 2008,16:13)
I don't think it's very Christian to look at Jesus bleeding on the cross and say 'cha-ching!'

On the contrary - I think history tells quite a different story.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,16:58   

I know I'm going to shake the foundations with this post but it happened last nignt and fits right into the discussion.

I'm not shocking anyone by saying that my son attends a Christian school.  I was reading the newsletter last night and was shocked to learn that the sixth grade class was taking a field trip to the Creation Museum.  What was worse was the description calling it a Smithsonian quality institution.  Now for all my issues with the mechanisms of evolution the idea of teaching YEC as fact astonds me especially at a school that prides itself on the academic development of its students and acheivement of it alumus.  I plan on raising this issue with the school and have some serious discussions during the textbook selection process as parents are an integral part of selection.  

My point is that the battle is not lost as I'm sure I'm not the only parent with these concerns and that's where true change is going to come from: within.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,17:08   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ April 15 2008,11:38)
Every time I read about Ham bragging about this or that event and the thousands that turn up at these (I will expect several thousand in Belfast's Waterfront Hall in a few weeks time) I get depressed.

Yeah, there's nothing like a steady diet of [Ken] Ham and [creationist] cheese to put one down in the dumps. Oh, yes, I’ve been there. For comic relief I’ve started paying attention to the whole Sasquatch crapfest again. You have to balance a dose of negative pseudoscience with less harmful, funny pseudoscience.

We just watched Sasquatch Odyssey which is a documentary about the “Four Horsemen of Sasquatchery” – Peter Byrne, (the late) Rene Dahinden, (the late) Grover Kranz, and John Green – men I remember from my childhood. They’re old farts now and you’ll laugh at the cantakerous Dahinden, the John A Davison of Bigfoot, who comes off like Brother Theodore Gottlieb as he exoriates the other three aging Bigfoot-chasers on their faults – and despite all the crap that these guys push, you will be pleasantly surprised to see the mayor of a small town in Oregon give his annual “Bigfoot Day” speech and make a pitch for evolution. I thought, “Well, hey, if people believe in Bigfoot and accept evolution, what the hell!” :) (Good idea for a reality TV show - Bigfoot believers versus the creationists...)

Pseudoscientific boogers like Ken Ham are not funny, so I have to get my Unarius Science fix, too. Cro-Magnon has a close encounter!

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,18:14   

Quote
What battle?


I really dread to think what will happen if science loses this. I know their (the YEC's) science is nonsense but they have actually gained credibility by the sheer numbers turning up at the events, in my opinion. Those with little knowledge of science will begin to say "if all those people believe this then maybe there is something in it after all". I think that's a really frightening scenario.

This afternoon I watched Paul Taylor (AIG UK) on TV and the guy scared me. Apparently an opinion poll caried out in the UK found that only 48% of the general public believed in evolution. Taylor made the point that for the last 200 years scientists had been trying to convince people of "millions of years and evolution". Based on these figures they had failed miserably (according to Taylor). Maybe he does have a point though. Surely something is badly wrong if the the YEC nonsense is now gaining a foothold in the UK. Ham's UK tour this time attracted quite large numbers.

Taylor also talked up the Belfast event on the 9th/10th of May (obviously anticipating huge crowds) and stated that Ham is going to be interviewed by the BBC. The last interview was on Sunday sequence (our Sunday morning religious affairs programme on BBC Radio Ulster). The interviewer was William Crawley and Ham didn't come out of that one well at all. Crawley was excellent. You can still listen to it at the bottom of the page on Ham's Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ham

But I reckon the next one will be on the main evening news. It'll be interesting to see who the interviewer is this time. Franklin Graham's visit for example, was covered by our main local news (inside Ulster), not just the religious affairs department.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,21:02   

i um know someone who used to do drugs with franklin graham.  just saying.  he liked white likker and cocaine back in the day.  i don't know about these days.  what a fucking douche bag.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,21:21   

Quote (Kristine @ April 15 2008,17:08)
For comic relief I’ve started paying attention to the whole Sasquatch crapfest again. You have to balance a dose of negative pseudoscience with less harmful, funny pseudoscience.

We just watched Sasquatch Odyssey which is a documentary about the “Four Horsemen of Sasquatchery” – Peter Byrne, (the late) Rene Dahinden, (the late) Grover Kranz, and John Green – men I remember from my childhood. They’re old farts now and you’ll laugh at the cantakerous Dahinden, the John A Davison of Bigfoot, who comes off like Brother Theodore Gottlieb as he exoriates the other three aging Bigfoot-chasers on their faults – and despite all the crap that these guys push, you will be pleasantly surprised to see the mayor of a small town in Oregon give his annual “Bigfoot Day” speech and make a pitch for evolution. I thought, “Well, hey, if people believe in Bigfoot and accept evolution, what the hell!” :) (Good idea for a reality TV show - Bigfoot believers versus the creationists...)

Pseudoscientific boogers like Ken Ham are not funny, so I have to get my Unarius Science fix, too. Cro-Magnon has a close encounter!

Kristine - This could be good fun for you!  (And US, your loyal fans here at ATBC, as you take pictures and tell stories - because...

You can write a grant request to DI Fellow Michael Medved!  If he could underwrite your Big Foot Hunt, you could have a couple of nice vacation weeks, fully funded, and run around the woods.

You know Big Foot's Out There!  You couldbe thje one to find him!  (Promise Medved an interview, and I'll bet he goes for it).

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
godsilove



Posts: 36
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,21:49   

Young Earth Creationism is poisonous to rational thought.  More specifically, the notion that a ancient compilation of texts with several syncretic elements is absolutely infallible and the will of a divine being is an absurd, baseless belief.  It promotes anti-intellectualism and distrust of scientists from various fields, and is the reason why a large proportion of the American public is scientifically illiterate.  Breaking free from the shackles of biblical literalism requires skepticism and rationality, something the notion of faith is antithetical too.

   
Annyday



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Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,22:30   

In the short term in the US, it's definitely an uphill battle. In the long term, though, say a hundred years from now? It seems ... unlikely that creationism will maintain a strong presence over time.

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"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
Reginald Beasley



Posts: 31
Joined: April 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,22:36   

Quote (Annyday @ April 15 2008,22:30)
In the short term in the US, it's definitely an uphill battle. In the long term, though, say a hundred years from now? It seems ... unlikely that creationism will maintain a strong presence over time.

I hope so.  I try to remind myself - hell, heliocentrism got attacked by the church for what?  half a century?

On the one hand we certainly have been fighting this one for longer than that.  

But on the other, reason and science always wins out somehow.

At least we have to hope

  
1of63



Posts: 126
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,23:03   

[quote=Peter Henderson,April 15 2008,12:38]
 
Quote
Every time I read about Ham bragging about this or that event and the thousands that turn up at these (I will expect several thousand in Belfast's Waterfront Hall in a few weeks time) I get depressed.

Why?  Religion of some sort has been around for thousands of years.  The need for something like it seems to be an innate desire.

Accept the fact that human nature is not going to change overnight.

 
Quote
Ham really does seem to have convinced a lot of people very easily that science education is not only anti-Christian but that it has some very serious flaws.

Ham preaches to the choir and he's good at it.  He says what they want to hear and he says it in a way that's both entertaining and inspiring.

But I seriously doubt he's converted many - if any - agnostics, atheists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc. to his narrow brand of fundamentalist Christianity.

 
Quote
I'm still at a loss as to what scientists can do about the current situation. Richard Dawkins can call it child abuse if he likes (i.e. telling children about creation) but he's fighting a losing battle, certainly within church circles at least.

It's not a battle, it's a war.  And it's going to be a "nothing but blood, toil, tears and sweat" thing for a long time to come so we'd better get used to it, either that or get out our Bibles now

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I set expectations at zero, and FL limbos right under them. - Tracy P. Hamilton

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,23:16   

OK so what if we can talk people into worshipping wild salmonids.

it would work for much of the worlds populations.  you down underers (not you Arden, the other kind) might be a bit fucked.  eco imperialism aint such a good precedent if history knows what in the hell she is talking about.  

If there is one good proxy for ecosystem integrity health (can we find better currencies, please) it surely must be wild trout.  

If anything has ever been a religious experience to me, it is wild trout.

If anything gets fucked up first (shakes fist at yankees, TVA, copperheads) it is wild trout.  ladies and gentlemen, i give you Calderwood and Tellico.

positivist notions of what science is and does are not public friendly (i don't like them either, on other grounds).  But the conservation biology debates of the 1990s re SLOSS etc should be enough to make anyone admit that we can't use the scientific method to determine What To Conserve (Louis, 'sup?).  

In other words, we need something else.  It does not begin with F.  It does not end with E and it is not gay appeaser stupidity tolerating science communication rhetoric.  We need a SPECKLED TROUT GOD.  

Do any of you darwinists that dabble in Ye Dark Arts care to send me a spell that will conjure up a giant (I'm not picky, 15 feet is good but I prefer something on the order of 300 feet tall) speckled trout?  I guess you need to fuck with the code so it can breathe being that big and also support it's own body weight, you designers can fudge on the balls and shit I don't care.

If people worshipped my giant speckled trout instead of that sweet little old innocent baby jesu that never hurt no one and didnt even shit his britches, would there be less war?  Less crime?

More importantly, would there be more speckled trout and sang and ramp patches and mushrooms?  Cause, uh, if so then I'm for that.

hiccup

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,23:54   

Quote (JohnW @ April 15 2008,15:04)
Some perspective.  A history of creationism in schools:
1.  Teach biblical literalism only, not science.
2.  Science and biblical literalism get equal time.
3.  Repackage biblical literalism as "creation science." Try to get equal time for creation science and real science.
4.  Repackage creation science (aka repackaged biblical literalism) as intelligent design.  Try to get a brief mention alongside real science.

We mustn't be complacent, and we need to be ready for the inevitable setbacks and outbreaks of tard along the way.  But there's a long-term trend here.

Absolutely. 50 years ago many American public schools were forcing kids to pray to Jesus. Don't let a few thousand yahoos obscure your view of the long-term progress. The creationists aren't much of a threat to science: evolutionary biologists publish thousands of pages of new research a year. It might make a lot of noise when a few kooks like Dembski write petulant web pages, and when a few zealous laypeople like Salvador and FtK agree with him, and when some creotards plagiarize up a 'documentary',  but they don't actually accomplish anything or prevent any real science from happening. Thousands of evolutionary biologists are going towake up and go to work tomorrow and create new science whether some creationists whine and bitch about it on the internet or not. As happened 20 years ago, and 10 years ago, and yesterday, and tomorrow, and 10 years from now, and 20 years from now. Complain all they want, they can never produce results, and we can, and so evolution's where it's at.

   
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,02:57   

Quote (stevestory @ April 15 2008,23:54)
 
Quote (JohnW @ April 15 2008,15:04)
Some perspective.  A history of creationism in schools:
1.  Teach biblical literalism only, not science.
2.  Science and biblical literalism get equal time.
3.  Repackage biblical literalism as "creation science." Try to get equal time for creation science and real science.
4.  Repackage creation science (aka repackaged biblical literalism) as intelligent design.  Try to get a brief mention alongside real science.

We mustn't be complacent, and we need to be ready for the inevitable setbacks and outbreaks of tard along the way.  But there's a long-term trend here.

Absolutely. 50 years ago many American public schools were forcing kids to pray to Jesus. Don't let a few thousand yahoos obscure your view of the long-term progress. The creationists aren't much of a threat to science: evolutionary biologists publish thousands of pages of new research a year. It might make a lot of noise when a few kooks like Dembski write petulant web pages, and when a few zealous laypeople like Salvador and FtK agree with him, and when some creotards plagiarize up a 'documentary',  but they don't actually accomplish anything or prevent any real science from happening. Thousands of evolutionary biologists are going towake up and go to work tomorrow and create new science whether some creationists whine and bitch about it on the internet or not. As happened 20 years ago, and 10 years ago, and yesterday, and tomorrow, and 10 years from now, and 20 years from now. Complain all they want, they can never produce results, and we can, and so evolution's where it's at.

Absolutely.

Science is pretty much a one-way street. Once something is discovered it tends to stay that way. The ID nutters can scream and shout as much as they like, but the evidence is against their stupid claims.

So, science is not fighting a losing battle. It is winning (in a big way). I am an example of this. I came to this argument as an ignorant chump primed by ID stupidity to reject "evolution" as a "conspiracy". The evidence won me over. Not only that but it had a backfire effect of really disliking the liars* for ID.


*The liars are the people that are deliberately plugging anti-evolution (who should know better {possibly do but are making money}) and not the "rubes" that fall for the lies (I was one).

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,03:25   

I'm with the long term view-ists. It's INCONCEIVABLE* that in the long term people denying reality will flourish. Occasional short term reversals and hiccups in the line of the graph, sure, but as many have noted, for the last few hundred years the Enlightenment graph has only been going one way.

The only thing that will turn that graph around is utter social collapse...which we might manage. But to undo the networks of information and communication we have (the very instruments of the Enlightenment) from books to the internet, it would have to be a pretty spectacular collapse/catastrophe.

I think, no matter how frustrating the short term is, we're in pretty good shape in the long term. And that is mainly because the changes being imposed from outside the little anti-Enlightenment groups are irresistable.

Louis

*Go on you Princess Bride lovers, let rip.

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Bye.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1332
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,07:03   

I wouldn't be as positive as Louis and the other long-viewists. Nobody, least of all the ID hierarchy, doubts that the scientific argument is done. The battle is a political one, and where you have a large bloc of voters, you have politicians agreeing with them.

The theocrats are very unlikely to get their way, but an effect of their campaign's momentum is to move the agenda to the right. (Consider that Obama's politics are in many ways more conservative than the British Conservative Party's - when was the last time a 'liberal' in the FDR mould gained national prominence in US politics?)

So while you are not likely to see the Established Church of God's Own Country, we already see the economic and political consequences of pandering to the fundies.

It's not just scientists who need to be alarmed, it's everyone who disagrees with the Bushites and the politics they smuggle in under the camouflage of 'values', 'patriotism', and 'freedom'.

As I've said before, the only way to undermine the cheerleaders who bring in the votes is to expose them as deceitful and hypocritical. The Core Vote isn't interested in statistics and test tubes, but they most definitely frown on ungodliness, especially in those who lead them.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Fross



Posts: 71
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,11:56   

i work at a company (non-science related) and no one knows who Ken Ham is, yet when PZ Myers got booted from the movies the link was forwarded to the entire company.  

I think the Ken Ham type creationism is a small bubble of people (yet a seemingly dense bubble)

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"For everything else, there's Mastertard"

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,12:58   

Quote (Amadan @ April 16 2008,13:03)
I wouldn't be as positive as Louis and the other long-viewists. Nobody, least of all the ID hierarchy, doubts that the scientific argument is done. The battle is a political one, and where you have a large bloc of voters, you have politicians agreeing with them.

The theocrats are very unlikely to get their way, but an effect of their campaign's momentum is to move the agenda to the right. (Consider that Obama's politics are in many ways more conservative than the British Conservative Party's - when was the last time a 'liberal' in the FDR mould gained national prominence in US politics?)

So while you are not likely to see the Established Church of God's Own Country, we already see the economic and political consequences of pandering to the fundies.

It's not just scientists who need to be alarmed, it's everyone who disagrees with the Bushites and the politics they smuggle in under the camouflage of 'values', 'patriotism', and 'freedom'.

As I've said before, the only way to undermine the cheerleaders who bring in the votes is to expose them as deceitful and hypocritical. The Core Vote isn't interested in statistics and test tubes, but they most definitely frown on ungodliness, especially in those who lead them.

LOL I was feeling optimistic this morning. It was a bright new day, the snail was on the thron and lark was on the wing. My heart was all a flutter with the endless possibilities that the next 24 hours would bring.

Then I had to talk with a group of people with the combined intellectual depth of a puddle of horse piss.

My day went rapidly downhill.

Now all I see is a barren wasteland as the last tree is cut down to make another bible and all the brown people have been bombed for their natural resources. I see fundies as the last organisms on earth (cockroaches will have long perished) crawling over the surface of the cracked deserts their fear based politics have created stabbing to death anyone who dares dissent from their religious nastiness.

Of course I might be wrong. Maybe the long term trends that have been noted over the last century or two will continue because, erm, well, I hate to come over all immodest, but people like us still exist.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,14:12   

Quote (Louis @ April 16 2008,12:58)
Quote (Amadan @ April 16 2008,13:03)
I wouldn't be as positive as Louis and the other long-viewists. Nobody, least of all the ID hierarchy, doubts that the scientific argument is done. The battle is a political one, and where you have a large bloc of voters, you have politicians agreeing with them.

The theocrats are very unlikely to get their way, but an effect of their campaign's momentum is to move the agenda to the right. (Consider that Obama's politics are in many ways more conservative than the British Conservative Party's - when was the last time a 'liberal' in the FDR mould gained national prominence in US politics?)

So while you are not likely to see the Established Church of God's Own Country, we already see the economic and political consequences of pandering to the fundies.

It's not just scientists who need to be alarmed, it's everyone who disagrees with the Bushites and the politics they smuggle in under the camouflage of 'values', 'patriotism', and 'freedom'.

As I've said before, the only way to undermine the cheerleaders who bring in the votes is to expose them as deceitful and hypocritical. The Core Vote isn't interested in statistics and test tubes, but they most definitely frown on ungodliness, especially in those who lead them.

LOL I was feeling optimistic this morning. It was a bright new day, the snail was on the thron and lark was on the wing. My heart was all a flutter with the endless possibilities that the next 24 hours would bring.

Then I had to talk with a group of people with the combined intellectual depth of a puddle of horse piss.

My day went rapidly downhill.

Now all I see is a barren wasteland as the last tree is cut down to make another bible and all the brown people have been bombed for their natural resources. I see fundies as the last organisms on earth (cockroaches will have long perished) crawling over the surface of the cracked deserts their fear based politics have created stabbing to death anyone who dares dissent from their religious nastiness.

Of course I might be wrong. Maybe the long term trends that have been noted over the last century or two will continue because, erm, well, I hate to come over all immodest, but people like us still exist.

Louis

Louis - The same old remedy still applies - at least for the next couple of days, before it all comes crashing down as Expelled debuts and our Darwinian Paradigm will crash down around our ears.

As per usual, I recommend burning down a couple of Christian Churches*, and/or Mosques if you can find find one.

HTH :)

* Don't forget the marshmallows this time!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,16:34   

I think ultimately science will lose. I fear, my friends, that we are living in the fading glow of the last, guttering remnants of the flame lit at the Enlightenment. Against the thousands-of-years backdrop of "normal" human existence --the lot of servitude, ignorance, superstition, and authoritarian brutality-- our age of reason and affluence will look like a blip, an outlier, a statistical anomaly. The future belongs to raving lunacy and xenophobic isolation. But I'm having a bad day. So ask me tomorrow.

--------------
The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2008,18:39   

Quote
i work at a company (non-science related) and no one knows who Ken Ham is


I've had a similar experience Fross.

My brother, who works for the Department of education in NI (he sets the physics standards for the province), knows what young Earth creationism is because some of his relatives are YECs. However, until I told him, he hadn't heard of either Ken Ham or Kent Hovind. I've tried to get him interested in what's going on but to no avail. Maybe if I took him along to hear Ham at the Waterfront he might change his mind !

 
Quote
I think ultimately science will lose. I fear, my friends, that we are living in the fading glow of the last, guttering remnants of the flame lit at the Enlightenment. Against the thousands-of-years backdrop of "normal" human existence --the lot of servitude, ignorance, superstition, and authoritarian brutality-- our age of reason and affluence will look like a blip, an outlier, a statistical anomaly. The future belongs to raving lunacy and xenophobic isolation. But I'm having a bad day. So ask me tomorrow.


C.J.: The Belfast Humanist Society did a survey in Belfast a while ago and the number of people who accepted evolution was quite high, around 50% I found that quite surprising, given what's going on in the province. I think the only positive thing (as I see it anyway) is that YECism is unlikely to spread outside of fundamentalist Protestant church circles. Despite what Ham says, I think his doctrines are going to seriously damage the evangelical church and ruin it's effectiveness. I just wish more evangelicals could see things that way.

Don't forget that Flat Earthism and geo-centrism both had their days. Yet, despite all we have learned over the last few hundred years there are still flat Earth and geo-centric creationists around.

But then, I've had a good day. It was suuny yesterday (it gives you a lift when the sun appears in these parts) and dry today so I managed to get my grass cut for the first time this season before tomorrow's expected rain !

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2008,04:52   

Quote (J-Dog @ April 16 2008,20:12)
Quote (Louis @ April 16 2008,12:58)
Quote (Amadan @ April 16 2008,13:03)
I wouldn't be as positive as Louis and the other long-viewists. Nobody, least of all the ID hierarchy, doubts that the scientific argument is done. The battle is a political one, and where you have a large bloc of voters, you have politicians agreeing with them.

The theocrats are very unlikely to get their way, but an effect of their campaign's momentum is to move the agenda to the right. (Consider that Obama's politics are in many ways more conservative than the British Conservative Party's - when was the last time a 'liberal' in the FDR mould gained national prominence in US politics?)

So while you are not likely to see the Established Church of God's Own Country, we already see the economic and political consequences of pandering to the fundies.

It's not just scientists who need to be alarmed, it's everyone who disagrees with the Bushites and the politics they smuggle in under the camouflage of 'values', 'patriotism', and 'freedom'.

As I've said before, the only way to undermine the cheerleaders who bring in the votes is to expose them as deceitful and hypocritical. The Core Vote isn't interested in statistics and test tubes, but they most definitely frown on ungodliness, especially in those who lead them.

LOL I was feeling optimistic this morning. It was a bright new day, the snail was on the thron and lark was on the wing. My heart was all a flutter with the endless possibilities that the next 24 hours would bring.

Then I had to talk with a group of people with the combined intellectual depth of a puddle of horse piss.

My day went rapidly downhill.

Now all I see is a barren wasteland as the last tree is cut down to make another bible and all the brown people have been bombed for their natural resources. I see fundies as the last organisms on earth (cockroaches will have long perished) crawling over the surface of the cracked deserts their fear based politics have created stabbing to death anyone who dares dissent from their religious nastiness.

Of course I might be wrong. Maybe the long term trends that have been noted over the last century or two will continue because, erm, well, I hate to come over all immodest, but people like us still exist.

Louis

Louis - The same old remedy still applies - at least for the next couple of days, before it all comes crashing down as Expelled debuts and our Darwinian Paradigm will crash down around our ears.

As per usual, I recommend burning down a couple of Christian Churches*, and/or Mosques if you can find find one.

HTH :)

* Don't forget the marshmallows this time!

I know you're only kidding about the church burning (even with marshmallows, although....no no must remain serious briefly), but despite DaveTard's fanatasies to the contrary I at least would never burn down a church or a mosque or a munder, gurdwara or synagogue etc.

Not because I have any sympathy for the chaps and chapesses who attend these buildings, nor for their belief in sky fairies, nor for some of the things in their heads that they exit the buildings with, but because many of the are simply very beautiful buildings.

My wife and I went walking this weekend, only a short pub stroll of a few miles around the Chiltern hills, and the sight of a six century old village church at the heart of a hamlet on a clear, sunny day in the Oxfordshire countryside is a sight to lift the heart. There is undeniable beauty in the things that people have built and made in the name of something undeniably ugly. The irony does not escape me.

One of the little battles in the war on the Enlightenment we must win is to remind people that there is great beauty in understanding the world around you. Great beauty can be found in a petri dish or a test tube or a praticle accelerator. It takes a little more effort than the fast food beauty of the Mona Lisa or a cathedral, it's a more complex meal and requires a more sensitive palate, but it is accessible to all regardless of colour, creed, sex or sexuality.

Mind you, given the people I was talking to yesterday, I'm not sure it's available to all regardless of ability! ;-) So we could be onto a loser.

The one thing I know about prognostication and futurological predictions is that they are almost inevitably wrong based on the simple fact that they are based on terribly weak data. So I tend not to make them. As I said above, my guess would be that long-term, barring catastrophe that sends all of humanity screaming back to the Dark Ages (as opposed to the segment still living there), we'll do all right. But like C.J and I both noted, that really depnds on what day it is! ;-)

Given the breathtaking inanity expressed in Expelled and the awesome own-goal-ability of its proponents, I think we can comfortably expect this latest Waterloo to be more of a Water-Based-Lubricant for yet another severe fisting of the IDCists.

Two days to go, I guess I better get my P45 ready*. Since science is going to be replaced with theology next week it looks like I'm unemployed. Right?

Louis

*P45 is the tax form you get when you leave your job in the UK. So a P45 can be given to you when sacked or when you resign or when you simply change jobs.

--------------
Bye.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1332
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2008,09:13   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ April 16 2008,18:39)
I think the only positive thing (as I see it anyway) is that YECism is unlikely to spread outside of fundamentalist Protestant church circles.


Peter, don't forget the (ahem) tribal element: biblical literalism and its offspring are generally viewed as belonging to Paisleyites, so no Taig worthy of the name is likely to go for it. Also, I suspect there might be a class thing to it: even if they all vote DUP, Gordon and Deborah will cringe into the inner recesses of their BMW at the thought of being so closely identified with Sammy and Natasha from Tatoo Central.

 
Quote
Don't forget that Flat Earthism and geo-centrism both had their days. Yet, despite all we have learned over the last few hundred years there are still flat Earth and geo-centric creationists around.


A word of caution: just look at the damage that those types can cause when whipped up by Daily Mail style hysteria over vaccines and autism. Politics isn't just about majorities, it's also about momentum.

 
Quote
But then, I've had a good day. It was suuny yesterday (it gives you a lift when the sun appears in these parts) and dry today so I managed to get my grass cut for the first time this season before tomorrow's expected rain!


There's another garden to be done down here in Dublin when you're finished. OK?

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2008,11:32   

Quote
Peter, don't forget the (ahem) tribal element: biblical literalism and its offspring are generally viewed as belonging to Paisleyites, so no Taig worthy of the name is likely to go for it


I've always thought that's a problem with the situation up here. The nationalists (SDLP)/Republicans (SinnFein) will always vote against anything that might arise in Lisburn City Council but they'll not realise why, other than the fact that the DUP etc. are for it. i.e. they don't appear to know why the science of YECism is so badly of the mark. So it turns into a party political/tribal thing and people get sucked into it without realising (i.e. I was surprised the Official Unionists backed it), which is what AiG want of course.


 
Quote
There's another garden to be done down here in Dublin when you're finished. OK?


I was going by RTE's forcasts for Ulster which are usually pretty reliable. They predicted rain/heavy showers for today but instead it turned out dry and sunny, if a little cold. They're forcasting rain for Dublin tomorrow so I think the grass will have to wait !

:p

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2008,08:34   

Here's a depressing item from the Chronicle of Higher Education, re the coverage of evolution and creationism in high school biology classes in the US of A.

----
This article, "Creationism Persists in American Science Classrooms" is available online at this address:

link

This article will be available to non-subscribers of The Chronicle for up to five days.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2008,10:28   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ May 20 2008,09:34)
Here's a depressing item from the Chronicle of Higher Education, re the coverage of evolution and creationism in high school biology classes in the US of A.

----
This article, "Creationism Persists in American Science Classrooms" is available online at this address:

link

This article will be available to non-subscribers of The Chronicle for up to five days.

The study itself, published in PLoS Biology.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2008,22:05   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ April 15 2008,16:14)
The interviewer was William Crawley and Ham didn't come out of that one well at all. Crawley was excellent. You can still listen to it at the bottom of the page on Ham's Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ham

What amazes me still is not only are creationists like Ham grossly ignorant about science and the physical evidence right in front of their eyes, but they are equally ignorant of the Bible, and the other ancient near east ritual literatures.

I listened to about 8 minutes of the BBC interview and counted nearly a dozen flat out falsehoods Ham said about either the Bible, or other ANE texts.  (This is why I have spent most of the last 3 years reading theology and biblical linguistics). (And going fishing).

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2008,00:08   

Welcome to my world:

Just in case anyone forgets, this is the result of letting the Taliban fundamentalists win;




My comments were, "Note the lateralization of bone wasting typical of secondary predators such as canines.  The disarticulation and removal of limbs begins at the scapula, removing the forelimbs, and then the tibia/fibula.  This is followed by the the disarticulation of the femur.  The pelvis of this individual is nearly consumed, so the ulna+radius? placed on top of the uniform/clothing is not a probable primary association.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2008,00:14   



There were lots more.  The bodies were disturbed by explosives detonated by starving village dogs trying to eat the carcasses.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2008,00:28   

Did I mention that the fundamentalists can not be allowed to win?

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2113
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2008,00:47   

What (the creato creep will ask) is the difference between the Taliban victim's that Gary claims are caused by "fundamentalism" and the millions murdered by Hitler?

I am glad you asked creationist dick-wad.

My next book chapter is about the Nazi+Darwin lie promoted by creationists.  First, if Nazism is the inevitable outcome of evolutionary theory as fundamentalist creationists claim, then we are truly and thoroughly screwed,  This is because evolution is true regardless of the consequences.  Gravity is true in the same way- gravity has as an unavoidable outcome that people can drop heavy rocks onto other people.  The atomic theory allows for nuclear weapons.  The germ theory allowed gern weapons.  The atomic theory allowed TNT, and mustard gas.

Second, (lucky for fundamentalists) the Holocaust was not the result of evolutionary theory being correct.  The fact is that the Nazis had the books of Darwin and his major German fan, Haeckel burned!  

http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/burnedbooks/documents.htm

Guidelines from Die Bücherei 2:6 (1935), p. 279  
Die Bucherei, the official Nazi journal for lending libraries, published these collection evaluation "guidelines" during the second round of "purifications" (saüberung).  

6. Schriften weltanschaulichen und lebenskundlichen Charakters, deren Inhalt die falsche naturwissenschaftliche Aufklärung eines primitiven Darwinismus und Monismus ist (Häckel).    

Guidelines from Die Bücherei 2:6 (1935), p. 279

6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel)

What was outstanding and uniquely German was the domination of the racist Nordic movement by medical doctors.  This had several important consequences, one being the prominance given to inherited disease and secondly the willingness to take direct "curative action" as a public health program.  Leading figures of the Nordic movement wrote for the Politisch-anthropologish Revue edited by Ludwig Wolttmaann, M.D. ( e.g. Rüdin, Lentz, Fisher and Schallmayer).   The right wing of the racial hygiene movement, the Nordic supremacists, that ultimately became the Nazi medical establishment was virtually the creation of medical publisher Julius Friedrich Lehmann.  Lehmann joint the Nazi party in 1920, and was the first Nazi to recieve the party's "Golden Medal of Honor" in 1934.  Actually, by 1930 it was nearly impossible to distinguish between the Nordic/Nazi and the transformed Rassenhygiene movements.  At that time, some people still attempted to separate what they viewed as the medical and scientific study of human genetics from the Nazi dominated Rassenhygiene, but within Germany they were suppressed.  



However, there is a hightly significant passage in Evans pg. 92-93:

Quote
"The minutes [taken by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt] for the second day's meeting, on 17 April 1943, recorded a statement by Reich Foreign Minister Ribbentrop, in Hitler's presence, to a point made by Hungarian Admiral Horthy: "On Horthy's retort, what should he do with the Jews then, after he had pretty well taken all means of living from them-- he surely couldn't beat them to death-- the Reich Foreign Minister [Ribbentrop] replied that the Jews must either be annihilated or taken to concentration camps. There is no other way."

Hitler almost immediately confirmed Ribbentrop's explicitly murderous statement at some length: Hitler: "Where the Jews were left to themselves, as for example in Poland, gruesome poverty and degeneracy had ruled. They were just pure parasites. One had fundamentally cleared up this state of affairs in Poland. If the Jews there didn't want to work [in Third Reich concentration camps], they were shot. If they couldn't work they had to perish. They had to be treated like tuberculosis bacilli, from which a healthy body could be infected. That was not cruel, if one remembered that even innocent natural creatures like hares and deer had to be killed so that no harm was caused. Why should one spare the beasts who wanted to bring us Bolshevism more? Nations who did not rid themselves of Jews perished." (references and footnotes are found in Evans, 2001:92-93)


Here we have Hitler, in his argument to Hungary's Admiral Horthy, invoking not an übermench racist position, but an anti-Bolshevik, and nationalist one.  His analogy is to disease and there is no argument based on the notion of evolution.  Hitler never tried to draw rhetorical support from Social Darwinism arguing in Mein Kampf, it is not present in the text.  Science in any event was at most merely a twig on the trunk of his anti-Semitism. His opposition is to what he considered a Marxist threat, not drawn from Darwin, which was more a rationalization of his hatred than its origin.  

The Nazi Office of Racial Policy held thousands of public meetings a month promoting anti-semitism and attacking “muddle-headed humanitarianism” (Humanitätsduselei)  or, what we call “liberalism” today.  The theoretical models and dominant metaphors Hitler drew from did not include evolution at any event, but the Germ Theory of Disease, and Christianity.  In 1938 the Nazi "Office of Racial Policy" publication Inromationsdienst Martin Luther’s advice on the “proper” treatment of Jews was given prominent display:

Quote
... to put their synagogues and schools to fire, and what will not burn, to cover with earth and rubble so that no-one will ever again see anything there but cinders ... Second, one should tear down and destroy their houses, for they do also in there what they do in their schools and synagogues ... And third, one should confiscate their prayer books and Talmud, in which idolatry and lies, slander and blasphemy is taught” From Proctor 1988: 88.


The founder of Protestant Christianity was a greater inspiration to the Nazis than any scientist.  Science, politicized by the same conditions that radicalized both Left, and Right in Germany, was used as justification for actions long advocated as “Christian.”  

Evans, Richard J.
2001 Lying about Hitler New York:Basic Books.

Hitler, Adolf
1999 (orig. 1925) Mien Kampf  Ralph Manheim, translator.  New York: Houghton
Mifflin Co.

Proctor, Robert N.
1988 Racial Hygiene: Medicine Under the Nazis Boston:Harvard University Press.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2008,11:31   

One piece of good news from NI is that the Ken Ham/AiG extravaganza the weekend before last has turned out to be something of a flop for AiG. This rep[ort from William Crawley:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs....sanchor

 
Quote
A few of you have asked about the Ken Ham interview I recorded. In fact, we never intended to broadcast a long interview, since I have already conducted a 20 min interview with Ken Ham, which is still available online. On this occasion, I simply made a visit to the Waterfront Hall to see the event in full flow and have a work with Ken Ham. This most recent chat -- that's really what it was -- was broadcast in an edited form on Sunday as part of the report about the conference.

I was very surprised at the low turnout for this Answers in Genesis event. The organisers told me that about 120 people came for the afterrnoon sessions; about 300 tickets were sold for the evening event on Friday; and they hoped for 500 people on Saturday evening. When Ken Ham last visited Belfast, the Waterfront Hall was full; but the decision to hire the hall for two days, based on that successful conference three years ago, seems to have backfired on this occasion. I would say that AiG has had to subsidize the Belfast event very significantly from their own funds. On Friday evening, I estimated that there were less than 300 people in the room. Perhaps the poor turnout explains why the order of the evening was changed. Ken Ham was originally to speak at 9pm, with another speaker (a retired anatomist) speaking at 7.30. In the end, Ken Ham spoke first (for 75 minutes without taking questions from the floor).

Listening to Mr Ham speak, I wondered if Creationism in Northern Ireland is waning.

Mr Ham has been explaining the "hard sell" at the end of his presentation. The lobby areas were essentially an AiG merchandise store for the evening. All organisations sell their resources, of course. I was simply taken by the effort to push the materials, which is why I raised the issue with him. Mr Ham confirmed that his organisations annual income is over $24 million. They have 300 staff salaries to pay out of that figure, and only 30 per cent of their earning come from merchandise; most of the income is from donations. I asked Mr Ham if it's true that he earns $180K per year. He did not give me his actual salary figure, but explained that it is "less than" 180K and that, even if it was 180K, this would not be an unreasonable figure for the CEO of a comparably sized company.

On the theology, we debated the morality of a God who would drown innocent children under the waters of a universal flood. Ken Ham questioned my use of the term "innocent", since all have sinned and all, including children in the womb, are the offspring of Adam. He did not appear to find the idea of a divinely-ordained genocide (which is what the flood amounts to) at all unpalatable. Instead, he argued that we should trust in God even when we can't explain his actions.

A big part of the evening on Friday included a pitch for the Creation Museum, which is apparently proving very successful with theological day-trippers. Ken offered me a personal tour of the Museum, and asked me to join him for lunch, over which we could talk about where I stand with God.


I'm not sure if YECism is on the wane in NI however, 120 for either Menton or Burgess on a Saturday afternoon is really bad. 300 for Ham isn't good either. I notice he (Ham) hasn't metioned the Belfast trip on his blog since, despite saying he was going to give a more in depth report and post photographs etc.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3992
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2008,09:11   

http://www.discovery.org/a/5711
http://blog.darwincentral.org/2008....olution

Quote
Baton Rouge — By a vote of 94-3, Louisiana’s House of Representatives today passed an academic freedom bill that would protect teachers and school districts who wish to promote critical thinking and objective discussion about evolution and other scientific topics.

There was no vocal opposition, and the floor speech by Rep. Frank Hoffman made clear that the bill was about science, not religion.

“This bill promotes good science education by protecting the academic freedom of science teachers,” said Dr. John West, Vice President for Public Policy and Legal Affairs at Discovery Institute. “Critics who claim the bill promotes religion instead of science either haven’t read the bill or are putting up a smokescreen to divert attention from the censorship that has been going on.”


--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 17 2008,09:16   

Will this be the next Dover ?????

I would imagine (hopefully) the NCSE, the ACLU etc. are putting together a case as we speak.

Incidently, how high up in the political sphere is this ? Is this the equivalent of a council, a regional assembly (e.g. MLAs in NI) or are they the same as MPs in the UK ?

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3992
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 17 2008,09:26   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ June 17 2008,09:16)
Will this be the next Dover ?????

I would imagine (hopefully) the NCSE, the ACLU etc. are putting together a case as we speak.

Incidently, how high up in the political sphere is this ? Is this the equivalent of a council, a regional assembly (e.g. MLAs in NI) or are they the same as MPs in the UK ?

The state governor who suppports the law is a front runner to become the Vice-President. Or at least the Republican candidate.

On the plus side, the law would protect teachers who show videos like Judgement Day or like Ken Miller's lectures.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
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