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  Topic: Ancient chimp-made ‘hammers’ fuel evolutionary deb< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Henry J



Posts: 4565
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2007,18:56   

Ancient chimp-made ‘hammers’ fuel evolutionary debate  
Quote
A University of Calgary archaeologist has found the first prehistoric evidence of chimpanzee technology, adding credence to the theory that some of humanity’s behavioural hallmarks were actually inherited by both humans and great apes from a common ancestor.


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Henry

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2007,19:43   

I'm a little puzzled over primatologists previously considering this kind of tool using behavior to be likely mereley "imitation", when chimps have been shown to exhibit other complex tool using behaviors (preparing sticks for extracting termites, for example) which obviously have nothing to do with imitation.

other than that, I was interested (and a little surprised - though I probably shouldn't be) to learn there is an entire field of endeavor that has sprung up around the paleo-history of tool usage in primates.

I'm absolutely sure this will be of relevance to the IDers, who will question how the researchers determined the "designed" nature of the nut-crushers in question.

I can't exactly predict how they will spin it, though.

anyone care to guess?

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2007,20:53   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 13 2007,19:43)
I'm absolutely sure this will be of relevance to the IDers, who will question how the researchers determined the "designed" nature of the nut-crushers in question.

I can't exactly predict how they will spin it, though.

anyone care to guess?

Spokeschimp for chimpanzees, Mr. Chimpy The Chimp when asked for comment, wished to make it known that chimps are in no way responsible for the total idiocy exhibited by ID proponents such as Dembski, Behe and Luskin.  

"We might have a commmon ancestor, but we are way too smart to get caught up in the obvious fallacies of a failed biblical idiology such as ID" signed Mr. Chimpy.  

Commenting further, Mr. Chimpy signed "More banana now", and "For the record, that noted Tard DaveScot is as ugly as a red babboon butt".

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Henry J



Posts: 4565
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2007,22:29   

Re "I was interested (and a little surprised - though I probably shouldn't be) to learn there is an entire field of endeavor that has sprung up around the paleo-history of tool usage in primates."

I think that's what caught my attention too. I didn't know that other kinds of apes had made the sort of tools that would sit around that long.

Henry

  
Arden Chatfield



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,00:13   

Okay, if you guys won't do it, I'll have to:



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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
deadman_932



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,04:52   

I'd be curious to know how the "hammers" were dated and why they would be **conclusively** "too large for humans to use," --particularly in a rainforest setting where rocks may not be all that common. Those look like sandstone to me. Eh.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Zachriel



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,07:11   

Look at this vast overstatement.

DaveScot      
Quote
No difference in phenotype can be predicted based on genotype differences. See ultraconserved phenotype.

which references this article on certain worm genomes.

Analysis of the sequence revealed that major evolutionary changes in genomes do not necessarily lead to gross physical changes in the adapted organism. "C. elegans and C. briggsae diverged 80 to 120 million years ago, somewhat longer ago than human and mouse," Stein wrote.

"Comparative genomics will be a very important hypothesis-generating tool," concluded Tom Blumenthal of the University of Colorado School of Medicine, whose analysis showed the high conservation of operons. "As we look closer at the comparisons, we will have ideas about how evolution has proceeded and what forces have been at work on the genes and the genomes as a whole."

Odd that the authors of the study keep making reference to closely related organisms and the mechanisms and effects of genome evolution. In any case, DaveScot is making a vast, huge overstatement.

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Zachriel



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,07:39   

O'Leary    
Quote
Modern Darwinism is about materialism - the idea that the mind is an illusion and humans are just big-brained apes.

Humans are animals. But they are not just animals. They are also placental mammals. They are also big-brained apes. But they are not just mammals and big-brained apes.

O'Leary    
Quote
Modern Darwinism is about materialism - the idea that the mind is an illusion and humans are just big-brained apes.

If someone puts a stick in your eye, the pain is hardly an "illusion", but a sensation. That's because the pain is a representation of a real event. An example of an illusion would be a phantom pain in a severed limb.

Similarly, the experience of mind may be more properly referred to as a sensation. It's not properly an illusion because it represents a real activity of the brain.

This is a semantic distinction, but an important one, I think.

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Proudly banned three four five times by Uncommon Descent.
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Reciprocating Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,08:05   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 13 2007,19:43)
I'm a little puzzled over primatologists previously considering this kind of tool using behavior to be likely mereley "imitation", when chimps have been shown to exhibit other complex tool using behaviors (preparing sticks for extracting termites, for example) which obviously have nothing to do with imitation.

And don't disrespect imitation. Imitation has been promoted from "a cheap behavioral trick" (relative to insight and intelligence) and is now recognized as a very sophisticated form of cognition with important implications for the evolution of human 'theory of mind.'  Unlike mimicking, imitative learning consists of reproducing the intentional actions of others, including both the end result or goal at which they are aiming and the behavior or strategy by means of which they are attempting to accomplish that goal.

See Andrew Whiten's work with an "artificial fruit," a box equipped with several defenses that must be surmounted before a food reward contained within may be obtained. In one example, the primate subject must withdraw two rods from restraining rings, remove a pin that restrains the barrel of a handle that blocks the lid, and then neutralize the handle by either rotating it or removing it to retrieve the fruit - with some actions occurring in the correct order. Whiten and others have presented distinct sequences of these alternative actions to several species (chimps, gorillas, Capuchin monkeys, orangs, etc.) and observed various degrees of talent for imitation.  Very interesting stuff.

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Zachriel



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,08:16   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Feb. 14 2007,08:05)
 
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 13 2007,19:43)
I'm a little puzzled over primatologists previously considering this kind of tool using behavior to be likely mereley "imitation", when chimps have been shown to exhibit other complex tool using behaviors (preparing sticks for extracting termites, for example) which obviously have nothing to do with imitation.

And don't disrespect imitation. Imitation has been promoted from "a cheap behavioral trick" (relative to insight and intelligence) and is now recognized as a very sophisticated form of cognition with important implications for the evolution of human 'theory of mind.'  Unlike mimicking, imitative learning consists of reproducing the intentional actions of others, including both the end result or goal at which they are aiming and the behavior or strategy by means of which they are attempting to accomplish that goal.

Culture IS imitation.

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Proudly banned three four five times by Uncommon Descent.
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k.e



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,08:28   

Quote (Zachriel @ Feb. 14 2007,15:39)
O'Leary      
Quote
Modern Darwinism is about materialism - the idea that the mind is an illusion and humans are just big-brained apes.

Humans are animals. But they are not just animals. They are also placental mammals. They are also big-brained apes. But they are not just mammals and big-brained apes.

O'Leary      
Quote
Modern Darwinism is about materialism - the idea that the mind is an illusion and humans are just big-brained apes.

If someone puts a stick in your eye, the pain is hardly an "illusion", but a sensation. That's because the pain is a representation of a real event. An example of an illusion would be a phantom pain in a severed limb.

Similarly, the experience of mind may be more properly referred to as a sensation. It's not properly an illusion because it represents a real activity of the brain.

This is a semantic distinction, but an important one, I think.

One of the most galling mantras of the pig brained bla-bla-central mental manimals that complain that the mind is an allusion ....to a mindless computer presumably..is this.

1.They want a material g$d.

Despite every second line in their precious book and even the Quran warning against it.

'Oh yeah of little faith' ....etcetera ....etcetera.


2. They complain loudly about being human and having a brain.

They don't think they are warm blooded, non egg laying, hairy omnivors which feed its young self produced milk that has enough time to think of its own mortality simply because it doesn't have to spend all day eating just to get enough energy to raise its young  and go to sleep and repeat the next day (pods excepted)

If Intelligent Design is to have any hope at all, some of it's promoters have to have that key missing ingredient to date...intelligence OR to put it another way ....create the illusion that they have a mind capable of being used to think.

Intelligence and design in their case is truly wishful thinking; they haven't demonstrated competence in either and their whole Schtick seems to be complaining that they would like to know what it would be like to have some.

Even Chimps laugh and its not hard to see why.

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
k.e



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,08:52   

Quote
Culture IS imitation.


The best statements are the simplest.

There is in my view a perfect example further up.

Arden posts the first thing that popped into my mind/brain the opening scene from 2001 a Space Odyssey and had the cognition to know that others had the same thought.

We each carry around a library of images aka our imagination, to claim this is a purely human trait may not be correct, it may actually be an evolved emergent behavior that even some birds have.

A local bird here the Australian Raven has learned to drink from discarded cardboard milk containers that the kids discard around here through the straws still stuck in them. I recall a recent article where a crow made a tool  from wire to get food from a bottle.

Even the whole fundy creo project is a constructed social reality that relies on immitation; it rewards its followers with inclusion in its tribe provided they parrot :) back the mantras.

They think they are getting a free lunch.

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Ichthyic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,15:09   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 14 2007,00:13)
Okay, if you guys won't do it, I'll have to:


that's one big nut crusher, alrighty.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,15:11   

Quote
An example of an illusion would be a phantom pain in a severed limb.


...or the appearence of design?

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,15:54   

Quote (Zachriel @ Feb. 14 2007,08:16)
Culture IS imitation.

Augmented by what Michael Tomasello has called "the ratchet effect," whereby improvements in imitated technique are retained and passed on through further imitation. Ultimately teaching emerges, which builds upon both imitation and theory of mind.  Then you've a potent brew.  

See Tomasello's The Cultural Origins of Human Cognition (1999, Harvard University Press) for an interesting treatment of the interaction of evolutionarily grounded capacities for imitation and theory of mind and the explosive emergence of culture.

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2007,16:03   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 14 2007,00:13)
Okay, if you guys won't do it, I'll have to:


Of course, 2001, A Space Odyssey quite explicitly depicts an intelligent design scenario, as the monolith (or who/whatever is behind it) repeatedly intervenes in human evolution.

It even has its own Dave.

(Uh, that would be SCIENCE FICTION, lurking UDudes.)

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
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