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Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1773
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,13:16   

After watching AFDave give yet another textbook demonstration of cognitive dissonance, I thought I’d share this with the crew.  Many of the regulars know about Glenn R. Morton, a professional geologist and ex-YEC who actually used to write for the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) in his younger days.  Mr. Morton became so disgusted with the dishonesty continually exhibited by YEC’s in general and ICR in particular that he changed his views 180 deg.  Glenn is still a devout Christian, but spends much time writing detailed geological articles that totally refute those goofy YEC claims.  

Mr.Morton's home page with dozens of great, well researched and referenced geological articles that refute YEC claims is here
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/dmd.htm
He encourages his articles to be freely distributed so long as no changes are made and no charges are made.

Mr.Morton's story about why he left ICR is here
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm
AFDave refuses to even acknowledge Mr. Morton's ICR experiences and testimony, which should come as no surprise to those who have seen DavieDenial in action.


In Feb. 2002 Mr.Morton's wrote another great article about YECs and denial of evidence that was Post of the Month at TalkOrigins.  In honor of our own little pet retard AFDave, I present that post in its entirety here.  See how much applies to AirFarceDavie

           
Quote
Morton’s Demon

Maxwell suggested a famous demon which could violate the laws of thermodynamics. The demon, sitting between two rooms, controls a gate between the two rooms. When the demon sees a speedy molecule coming his way (from room A), he opens the gate and lets the speedy molecule leave the room and when he sees a slow molecule coming at the gate (from room A), he holds it closed. Oppositely, when he sees a speedy molecule coming at the gate from room B he closes the gate but when he sees a slow molecule from room B coming toward the gate he opens it. In this way, the demon segregates the fast moving molecules into one room from the slow ones in the other. Since temperature of a gas is related to the velocity of the molecules, the demon would increase the temperature of room B and cool room A without any expenditure of energy. And since a temperature difference can be used to create useful work, the demon would create a perpetual motion machine.

       Maxwell's demon was shown to fail by Szilard who showed that the demon needed to use light (and expend energy) to determine a fast molecule from a slow one. This energy spent to collect information meant that the demon couldn't violate the 2nd law.

       The reason I mention this is because I realized tonight that the YECs have a demon of their own. In a conversation with a YEC, I mentioned certain problems which he needed to address. Instead of addressing them, he claimed that he didn't have time to do the research. With other YECs, I have found that this is not the case (like with sds@mp3.com who refused my offer to discuss the existence of the geologic column by stating "It's on my short list of topics to pursue here. It's not up next, but perhaps before too long."  And with other YECs, they claim lack of expertise to evaluate the argument and thus won't make a judgment about the validity of the criticism. Still other YECs refuse to read things that might disagree with them.

 Thus was born the realization that there is a dangerous demon on the loose. When I was a YEC, I had a demon that did similar things for me that Maxwell's demon did for thermodynamics. Morton's demon was a demon who sat at the gate of my sensory input apparatus and if and when he saw supportive evidence coming in, he opened the gate. But if he saw contradictory data coming in, he closed the gate. In this way, the demon allowed me to believe that I was right and to avoid any nasty contradictory data. Fortunately, I eventually realized that the demon was there and began to open the gate when he wasn't looking.

       However, my conversations have made me aware that each YEC is a victim of my demon. Morton's demon makes it possible for a person to have his own set of private facts which others are not privy to, allowing the YEC to construct a theory which is perfectly supported by the facts which the demon lets through the gate. And since these are the only facts known to the victim, he feels in his heart that he has explained everything. Indeed, the demon makes people feel morally superior and more knowledgeable than others.

       The demon makes its victim feel very comfortable as there is no contradictory data in view. The demon is better than a set of rose colored glasses. The demon's victim does not understand why everyone else doesn't fall down and accept the victim's views. After all, the world is thought to be as the victim sees it and the demon doesn't let through the gate the knowledge that others don't see the same thing. Because of this, the victim assumes that everyone else is biased, or holding those views so that they can keep their job, or, in an even more devious attack by my demon, they think that their opponents are actually demon possessed themselves or sons of Satan. This is a devious demon!
       
He can make people think that the geologic column doesn't exist even if one posts examples on the internet. He can make people believe that radioactive dating doesn't work even if you show them comparisons of tree rings compared to radiocarbon dating. He can make people ignore layer after layer of footprints and burrows in the geologic column (see http://home.entouch.net/dmd/burrow.jpg ) and believe that burrowing can occur and animals can walk around unimpeded during a global flood.  He can make people think that the sun is shrinking, that the stars are all within 6000 light years of the earth, or that God made pictures in that light of events which never happened. He can make people believe that fossils aren't the remains of animals and are 'petrifactions' placed there by the devil. He can make people ignore modern measurements of continental motion, stellar formation, or biological speciation. He can make people believe that 75,000 feet of sediment over an area 200 by 100 miles can be deposited in a few hundred years, and he can make people believe that Noah trained animals to poop into buckets on command. He can make people deny transitional forms which have traits clearly halfway between two groups. This is a dangerous demon.(emphasis mine - OA)

       But one thing that those unaffected by this demon don't understand is that the victim is not lying about the data. The demon only lets his victim see what the demon wants him to see and thus the victim, whose sensory input is horribly askew, feels that he is totally honest about the data. The victim doesn't know that he is the host to an evil parasite and indeed many of their opponents don't know that as well since the demon is smart enough to be too small to be seen.

       But unlike Maxwell's demon, Morton's demon doesn't expend any energy--he gets his victim to expend it for him. He can get his victim to expend massive amounts of intellectual energy figuring out how to convince the world that they are wrong. The victim will spend hours reading supportive books or searching through scientific literature noting only those portions which support the YEC position. And the victim will spend lots of energy trying to convince others to come see things the way they do. Thus, the demon gets its victims to spend energy to help it spread the infection.
       
The demon drives his victim to go to YEC conventions so that the demon can rest. By making his victim be with those equally afflicted, the demon doesn't have to shut the door or even be watchful. This is because it allows the demon time to rest when all that is in the room is supportive data. For the victim, there is comfort in numbers even if they are few.

 Those who try to help the poor victims escape the ravages of Morton's demon wear themselves out typing e-mails explaining data and facts which never get through the demon's gate. After years of weariness, the philanthropic individual dies of fatigue. This is oh so devilish a situation!


http://home.entouch.net/dmd/mortonsdemon.htm

Wow, did Glenn call it right on AFDave or what!

enjoy!

--------------
"Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,13:34   

d-dave, do you know Morton? |Because he sure knows YOU.

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,13:55   

Glenn Morton, former AFDave type who smartened up, said:
Quote


But one thing that those unaffected by this demon don't understand is that the victim is not lying about the data. The demon only lets his victim see what the demon wants him to see and thus the victim, whose sensory input is horribly askew, feels that he is totally honest about the data.


This is exactly what I mean when I say I don't think AFDave is lying. He simply can't believe anything which opposes his religious conviction. It simply must be false, somehow.

   
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,13:57   

Yep.  This is why I kept pushing Dave to acknowledge his methodology for determining fact from fiction in regards to any data which could potentially refute biblical inerrancy.  When pressed, he finally said that the bible itself was his best resource for making such evaluations.  Short of pointing out this "strange loop", I don't think anything has a chance of getting through to him.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1773
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,18:12   

*bumped* for AFDave so he can add his comments, since I know damm well he read this thread with his name on it.

How about if Davie Cakes - give us your thoughts on Glenn Morton's experiences with the charlatans at ICR.

Or are you too afraid to explore those dark avenues, lest doubt creep into your tiny Fundy brain?

--------------
"Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2006,19:27   

Quote
This is exactly what I mean when I say I don't think AFDave is lying. He simply can't believe anything which opposes his religious conviction. It simply must be false, somehow.

I go along with you almost completely on this, steve, but there's other areas and statements he's made that are outright lies. His claim about "knowing" that I'd *never* worked with any "jungle tribes" was just about as honest as me saying " steve, I know you've never, ever been to California"...while "knowing" nothing of the sort, or you, for that matter. I ...gah, I just can't see how anyone can say such things "believing" they are being "honest" Maybe it's just some sort of cognitive block on my part--I tend to really, really REALLY dislike liars.

People like him actually scare the crap out of me, and I don't get scared by much at all anymore. Like I told a friend of mine once: " the only "monsters" I know of walk on two legs and look just like you and me"

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2006,07:49   

I think this topic sets off too many alarm bells for Dave.  I don't think he'll address it.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2006,07:57   

Hey all,
I have a real day off after a couple of months of #### and wanted to catch up on what seems like several thousand new posts.  I hadn't intended to write anything but I read a column a couple of days ago that just fell right in with this thread.  At the time I specifically thought of Morton's Demon and AFDave.

Morton's Demon is real.  As in the Demon has a true physical analogue in brain neurology/neurochemistry.  The doctor who has done the work on this has spoken about it before on NPR.

As fascinating as it is, it really is not surprising.

Sincerely,
Paul

P.S.  Does Paley have a model yet?

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2006,09:22   

I came across this and thought that it fit in pretty nicely here.


  
argystokes



Posts: 766
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2006,09:34   

Quote (stevestory @ July 05 2006,16:55)
Glenn Morton, former AFDave type who smartened up, said:
Quote


But one thing that those unaffected by this demon don't understand is that the victim is not lying about the data. The demon only lets his victim see what the demon wants him to see and thus the victim, whose sensory input is horribly askew, feels that he is totally honest about the data.


This is exactly what I mean when I say I don't think AFDave is lying. He simply can't believe anything which opposes his religious conviction. It simply must be false, somehow.

I think the most blatant example of an AFDave lie was when he said that the evidence convinced him the Genesis story was true, rather than vice versa.  This is evidenced by the fact that he cannot even imagine what data contradicting Genesis would look like.

--------------
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2006,10:55   

Guys, dave has intentionally distorted the meaning of a source quoting it (the Encyclopedia Britannica article). I don't think that can be attributed to stupidity or willful ignorance.

My take is this: dave believes it's ok to lie, as long as he's doing it for his God.
(Of course, he's really doing it for his own ego, being Champion of the Lord, but that will never get past his subconcious.)

And it's not surprising. After all, Mr. Universal Moral Code actually believes it's ok to kill babies, just because your god told you to -or, rather, that your leader told you your god told him.
So what's a little white lie?

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2006,13:42   

Quote (Faid @ July 06 2006,16:55)
Guys, dave has intentionally distorted the meaning of a source quoting it (the Encyclopedia Britannica article). I don't think that can be attributed to stupidity or willful ignorance.

My take is this: dave believes it's ok to lie, as long as he's doing it for his God.
(Of course, he's really doing it for his own ego, being Champion of the Lord, but that will never get past his subconcious.)

And it's not surprising. After all, Mr. Universal Moral Code actually believes it's ok to kill babies, just because your god told you to -or, rather, that your leader told you your god told him.
So what's a little white lie?

I am not familiar with the specific examples of lies you guys mention--

[AFDave]
--but tell them to me and I'll tell you they're wrong
[/AFDave]

--heh just kidding. I'm not familiar with the examples, because I seldom read AFDave's comments. I wouldn't put it past him to lie about a detail, but I mean to say that in the big picture he honestly believes these things he says. Despite the fact that he has no familiarity with science, and no knowledge of the evidence, anything you say which contradicts his literal reading of the fairy tales simply must be wrong. I spent enough time around loony relatives in Kentucky, I can recognize a True Believer when I see one. There's just nothing you can do about it.

(except of course what you're doing, which is keeping him talking so people can see what idiots YECers can be)

the good news is, it often turns their kids off christianity.

Quote
And it's not surprising. After all, Mr. Universal Moral Code actually believes it's ok to kill babies, just because your god told you to -or, rather, that your leader told you your god told him.
So what's a little white lie?
That would be the god, of course, who doesn't have the 'Universal' moral code. Kind of a cosmic example of "do as I say, not as I do".

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2006,14:06   

Quote
the good news is, it often turns their kids off christianity.


I think I mentioned that a while back. Given that he's got a few kids, odds are ONE of them has to be marginally smarter than him and see Dave for what he is. My friend that is a psychologist DID say that he's probably compensating for a few things, mild dyslexia among them ( this explains his spelling, his inability to read things like 9/10 students accept evolution). Also, he views his Dad as a great man and didn't like the idea of not living up to that.

He probably developed his manipulation games early on, discovered people were fairly easily coerced...but then he has to deal with the reality of not being that #### smart, innately. So he compensates big time.

Then again, maybe he's just a lying jerk. Or both.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2006,16:35   

bump to tempt dave

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2006,23:31   

Fundies are strange people, take it from an ex-fundie.

You people have to realise that Afdave sees you all as "Children of Satan". It's not to say he thinks you are satanists, but he really believes that you are under the devil's influence and that the devil lies to all of you. He there fore won't believe anything you say, since it is the "Spirit of this World" that is manifest in you (and me).

He trusts his fellow xtians more than he will ever trust you. If you bring data that contradicts his sources (fellow xtians), he will discard it as distortions and lies. His resistance to the data, in Dave's view, is simply God protecting him from the lies of this World, and is in Dave's world evidence that his God is with him and on his side.

He also risks too much to even entertain the thought that what you guys are saying might be right. He risks his family, past, present and future. He won't take that risk, and becuase he denies any truth from you he feels secure in his "knowledge" of God. Futhermore, in Dave's world, he is an entity with God living in side of him. He will acknowledge some simple mundane mistakes, but he cannot see any truth in your evidence since that would mean that Satan got the better of God, and Dave will not let that happen, ever. Fundies view themselves as the only true children of God, and in a way it is true. The Bible is clear that you need to be extreme in order to be a disciple of God (apologies to moderate Christians, its just my view).

The really sad part is that all this just makes Afdave the very thing that he hates, and that is a dishonest backstabber that lies and defends other lies with his life. He does not know it though. He thinks we are the ones supporting lies with "wordly" data and that we are blinded by Satan. The truth is that Afdave is trapped. It will take great sacrifice and effort for him to be free of worship of the Bible and this is the very thing that Afdave thinks is a trick from the Devil. As such, he cannot allow it and will never see your reason and evidence, less he be tempted by the Devil and allow the thought that maybe the Bible is not all it's cracked up to be. He has one God, and that is the Bible. He will defend it with his life and go back to his YEC buddies and tell them how he resisted the devil here and triumphed with the "Word of God". The more he is mocked, the more he thinks he is doing the right thing, since the Bible says he will be persecuted for his belief.

Trip down memory lane... anyway, just trying to tell you guys that evidence will never convince Afdave. He is not here to be convinced or because he has any doubt on the YEC position. He is here to try and convert you. Very noble, since he thinks the Devil has you by the short and curlies. If Dave wanted the truth, he would be out hunting for it himself.

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,01:03   

Wesley's blog had a bit on Hovind, and Wes said

Quote
Apparently, law enforcement has just been collecting various offenses for the past several years, for today they rounded up Kent Hovind and his wife and arrested them, and dumped 58 charges onto the docket.

Of all the antievolutionists around, Kent Hovind has to be a frontrunner in the “unsympathetic” sweepstakes, with his in-your-face tactics and smarminess. And yet I find this latest twist to the Hovind story sad and pathetic. Certainly, he is getting what appears to be his just desserts in this affair, but it still looks to me like someone who just cannot come to grips with reality finding it confusing when reality finally comes to grips with him.


And I replied

Quote
That’s the impression I get of him also. I have met people like him, they have some curiosity, but have never learned the techniques of rational thinking. If an idea pops into their heads, and they agree with it, they say it. If someone argues against it, they generate a special-plead statement or two about how it could possibly still be true, and they continue to believe it.

“Exxon has a car which runs on water, but they supress it.”
“Wouldn’t chemists figure it out and tell the world?”
“Hmm. Well, chemists get their money from the government, and George Bush controls the government, so he’s helping supress it.”
“I know some chemistry, including Heats of Formation etc, and enthalpies, and there’s no way water could power a car.”
“Who do you think wrote the textbooks you read? So I guess they filled your mind with misinformation.”
“But wouldn’t *somebody* have built this kind of engine, and show it off?”
“Hmm. They must be killing everyone who tries.”

My simple hypothesis about people like this is, they spend all their time figuring out why they’re right. Rational thinking involves figuring out how you could be wrong, and weighing the probabilities.


As an ex-fundy, Renier, what do you think about this hypothesis? Does it resemble the fundy thought processes you had?

   
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,01:51   

stevestory, You pretty much nailed it on the head. You can add one step to it, the "Miracle Factor". When there is no evidence, or there is evidence to the contrary, they simply call the old card of miracle.

You can throw lots and lots of evidence against Noah's flood. In the end, when the fundie is cornered, he can still shrug miracle and leave feeling victorious.

It's like the argument with Afdave over the footprints in the sandstone. In Dave's mind, it could have happened during the flood, and it must have, else the flood is false, and Dave "knows" the flood is true, since the bible says it is.

Anyway, your sample of their reasoning is really very good. They always look for a way out.

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,01:52   

Quote
“Who do you think wrote the textbooks you read? So I guess they filled your mind with misinformation.”


This I always find the most bizzare. Even if, as most of the people on UD claim, that scientists believe evolution because of some subconscious desire to remove themself from moral resposibility or somesuch crap, there would still have to be a massive effort to cover it all up. So far they have produced no evidence for this whatsoever, not even a single bad piece of reasoning or decent quote mine. The best they have is the fact that textbooks oversimplify complex scientific topics. I have gone so far as to accuse people at UD of making the whole thing up and the only response I got was a vauge answer about Richard Dawkins, and a complete misrepresentation of a conference similar to the maths conference talked about on evolutionblog. Currently on the conspiracy-o-meter this ranks significantly behind faked moon landings and George Bush ordering the WTC attacks based on supporting evidence, but creationists have no problem believing it because as Steve said it helps them be right.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,05:54   

I know this is from Fox News, but is this a car that runs on water?

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,07:01   

Quote (GCT @ July 17 2006,11:54)
I know this is from Fox News, but is this a car that runs on water?

No.

   
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,07:25   

Quote (stevestory @ July 17 2006,12:01)
Quote (GCT @ July 17 2006,11:54)
I know this is from Fox News, but is this a car that runs on water?

No.

Why not?  Is it just that water is the supplier of hydrogen which is what is actually used to power the car?  I'm not trying to be flippant or contrary or anything.  I just saw your post and remembered seeing this video and wanted to ask.

  
creeky belly



Posts: 205
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,10:22   

I'm no chemist, but I have a rough idea of what's in water.  I especially liked the part where they turn water(H2O) into HHO. Completely different!  I know my chemistry's a little fuzzy, but I didn't think you could have an H-H-O molecule. I know that you can separate the hydrogen gas from the oxygen, but I seriously doubt that it's very efficient yet (note that the car was a hybrid and there was talk that it "COULD" run on just water/HHHHHHO, not that it did)

  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,11:01   

Here's a car that runs on water. No doubt about it.

  
Arden Chatfield



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,11:03   

On the subject of to what degree AFD is dishonest versus merely delusional, it's helpful to look at how he approaches subjects that don't impinge on the biblical literalism that has his brain hemmed to the point of uselessness. Think back to how he reacted and tried to argue in the Portuguese debate. It had absolutely nothing to do with the bible, and there was no conceivable way even he could think he would go to he11 for taking one side of the argument or the other, and what do you know, his argumentation style was essentially identical to how he argues for a Young Earth -- quote mining, making shit up, lying about having already 'won' arguments, bizarre leaps of 'logic', refusing to concede even the smallest errors, and simply not hearing any counterarguments that anyone offers. And of course, bizarre dadaistic shit like how smaller data sets are 'more detailed' than larger ones, and how no one else had ever examined the history of the Romance languages before.

So it's clear that Dave argues everything the same way as he argues for his Biblical literalism -- dishonestly, irrationally, and with great ignorance. And this is for subjects where his 'salvation' is NOT on the line.

At this point it comes down to a chicken-or-egg proposition: was his brain destroyed while trying to maintain biblical inerrancy such that he lost the inability to ever reason in a recognizable way? OR has he simply always been incapable of letting go of his egomania long enough to actually examine any issue rationally? (Thus making him a red-hot candidate to be an YEC'er.)

I think there really IS something wrong with AFD's mind, since I have known some evangelical Christians who can employ analytical reasoning just fine as long as their belief system is not under discussion in any way -- as long as they're examining something having nothing to do with religion. Dave fails even that test.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,13:14   

Quote (GCT @ July 17 2006,13:25)
Quote (stevestory @ July 17 2006,12:01)
Quote (GCT @ July 17 2006,11:54)
I know this is from Fox News, but is this a car that runs on water?

No.

Why not?  Is it just that water is the supplier of hydrogen which is what is actually used to power the car?  I'm not trying to be flippant or contrary or anything.  I just saw your post and remembered seeing this video and wanted to ask.

'runs on' means what the fuel is. Water is not the fuel for that car, hydrogen and oxygen gas is. Fuel is something you extract energy from, and no energy is being extracted from the water. Electricity turns the water into a higher-energy gas, which is then the fuel. My use of these terms is not set in stone, but I think it's the least confusing way to use them.

   
GCT



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Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,13:46   

Steve, fair enough.

But, if they are correct that they could make a car that uses no gas, but instead uses water, what would you call that?  I guess there would still be an electrical reaction needed to separate the H and O gas, so would it be an electric/water hybrid?

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,14:00   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 17 2006,16:03)
On the subject of to what degree AFD is dishonest versus merely delusional, it's helpful to look at how he approaches subjects that don't impinge on the biblical literalism that has his brain hemmed to the point of uselessness. Think back to how he reacted and tried to argue in the Portuguese debate. It had absolutely nothing to do with the bible, and there was no conceivable way even he could think he would go to he11 for taking one side of the argument or the other, and what do you know, his argumentation style was essentially identical to how he argues for a Young Earth -- quote mining, making shit up, lying about having already 'won' arguments, bizarre leaps of 'logic', refusing to concede even the smallest errors, and simply not hearing any counterarguments that anyone offers. And of course, bizarre dadaistic shit like how smaller data sets are 'more detailed' than larger ones, and how no one else had ever examined the history of the Romance languages before.

So it's clear that Dave argues everything the same way as he argues for his Biblical literalism -- dishonestly, irrationally, and with great ignorance. And this is for subjects where his 'salvation' is NOT on the line.

At this point it comes down to a chicken-or-egg proposition: was his brain destroyed while trying to maintain biblical inerrancy such that he lost the inability to ever reason in a recognizable way? OR has he simply always been incapable of letting go of his egomania long enough to actually examine any issue rationally? (Thus making him a red-hot candidate to be an YEC'er.)

I think there really IS something wrong with AFD's mind, since I have known some evangelical Christians who can employ analytical reasoning just fine as long as their belief system is not under discussion in any way -- as long as they're examining something having nothing to do with religion. Dave fails even that test.

The same example you provided (the Portuguese thing) puzzled me for a while, too.
I finally reached to this conclusion:
dave thinks he is a Champion of the Lord Almighty. His holy task is to do the Lord's will; in this Endeavour he has a blank card. He can lie and distort and deceive all he likes, about any subject he likes: Since he does it against the heathe- the poor secular minds deceived by Satan, his victory (his imaginary, magnificent Victory that is bound to come upon us eventually) nullifies any 'misconducts' made to achieve it. Otherwise, it's a defeat: And defeat of any sort for the Champion of God is just not acceptable.

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,14:10   

Quote (Faid @ July 17 2006,19:00)
The same example you provided (the Portuguese thing) puzzled me for a while, too.
I finally reached to this conclusion:
dave thinks he is a Champion of the Lord Almighty. His holy task is to do the Lord's will; in this Endeavour he has a blank card. He can lie and distort and deceive all he likes, about any subject he likes: Since he does it against the heathe- the poor secular minds deceived by Satan, his victory (his imaginary, magnificent Victory that is bound to come upon us eventually) nullifies any 'misconducts' made to achieve it. Otherwise, it's a defeat: And defeat of any sort for the Champion of God is just not acceptable.

I don't think he sees it as a blank card to lie and distort.  He probably thinks that the Lord Almighty wouldn't allow him to be wrong, so he's incapable of lying.

  
stevestory



Posts: 10127
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2006,14:44   

Quote (GCT @ July 17 2006,19:46)
Steve, fair enough.

But, if they are correct that they could make a car that uses no gas, but instead uses water, what would you call that?  I guess there would still be an electrical reaction needed to separate the H and O gas, so would it be an electric/water hybrid?

I would probably name it after the power source which enters the car. Remember, you wouldn't have to add water to the car. The water cycle could be a closed system. You'd add electricity, the electricity would create the gaseous mixture onboard, and as the car ran the gas would be converted to water, presumably in a holding tank on the car. In that case, I'd call it an electric car with a gas-water battery. If the car didn't preserve the water, and the gas formation was done at the gas station, and the gaseous mixture was pumped into the car at the pump, I'd call it a gaseous -fuel car.

But there's no reason to pump O2 at the gas station, you can get that from the air, so you'd be filling the car with hydrogen, so I would call it a hydrogen car.

   
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2006,00:36   

Renier- the way you put it I'm amazed the enlightenment ever happened at all.


As for the Fox news water car stuff, it just makes me mad.  I spent quite a while sorting out unscientific weirdos and educating scientifically illiterate people when that came out.  It was kind of fun, but horrifying in how it showed up the lack of knowledge and gullibility in society.

  
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2006,01:02   

Quote
Renier- the way you put it I'm amazed the enlightenment ever happened at all.


I sometimes wonder myself.

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1773
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2006,14:22   

*Bumped* to the top.

AFDave has been caught flat out lying when he said he didn't know about Glenn Morton's story or old earth views.

Here is Dave's chance to stop lying and discuss Glenn Morton's anti-YEC conversion and anti-YEC evidence.

IF Dave Hawkins has the stones to be honest, which I seriously doubt.

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"Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

  
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